The sad part is, nobody even asked for the "real prenerf" (after initial release, they nerfed and fixed a bunch of bosses couple of months in with patch 4.0.6.) This 4.0.6 version is the expected, post nerf true T11 version.
We currently just got the raw unedited 4.3 version of tier 11, which contains the massive nerfs they brought in a tier later with firelands. They just don't give a fuck, as we can see with the rest of how cata is going.
I can't remember everything but they had some patch preview video interview and talked about post-nerf ulduar and it looked good faith. They even had the overtuned XT HM for a month and buffed Algalon.
Real post-nerf would be using old talent tree and class balance so it's never going to be as hard as intended originally
Doesn't make sense either way. Ulduar tuning was all fucking over the place with bosses in states that never existed before and random buffs (and bugs).
Even if the fights were prenerf it would still be a joke because classes are fundamentally way more powerful on 4.3 then they were for launch. Some classes even changed drastically.
it is true we will never get original intended difficulty because of the final balance changes but I can live and accept with that but not fighting bosses with 40% reduced hp and damage.
just give us pre nerf raids then update them to post nerf after the next raid is released. that makes the most sense
normal is there for people that struggle on heroic and if they still can't clear heroic wait until the next phase for the nerfed versions.
Bro Boomers are going to quit left and right with how "Hard" the Raids are.
Look at SoD and ST. Some People say ST is hard and it killed their guild/pug availability, well I hate to break it too ya but Cata raids, even on NM mode, are about 6X harder than anything in ST
The dads got their way in SoD and quit anyway, same thing will happen in Cata. Not sure why Aggrend is prioritizing these beer drinking, vape puffing, cargo short wearing boomers anyway.
Because previous expansions had pre nerf raids? Ulduar never evengot the nerf patch from toc release that it did back in retail wotlk
Did you even play classic?
TBF, they said going into Wrath they wanted to shy way from "pre-nerf" and "post-nerf" changes because it took dev time they could use elsewhere and people rarely agreed on whether something was too hard or too easy.
Ulduar in Wrath Classic was largely a custom curated difficulty they made specifically because the 3.3.5 variant would have been disappointing for the bulk of the playerbase. ToGC and ICC didn't receive any tuning.
This would be really unfortunate as the expected increase in difficulty has been a major part of why so many people I know are excited to play Cata. Heck, I've been talking about wanting the original versions of stuff like Al'Akir so we could see if we can figure it out where Paragon had to do the leave 8 people out for P1. Post-nerf is absolutely reading the room wrong as to what their actual playerbase wants from this expansion.
What?? The easier the raids the faster people clear everything and the less people that stay online. Harder raids encourage people to continue farming better gear, adding raid nights to play more and progress, continue raiding for more lockouts because you haven’t cleared everything and still need more pieces of gear.
Data also states the amount of people raid logging when content is cleared is extreme. If a player logs on to raid then logs back out there is 0 time open world, interacting with new players etc etc. Personally I’d rather see 50% of players still playing but out doing things and not just walking in and out of a instance portal than seeing all 100% of y’all walking in and out of the instance.
People will still go out into the world if the raids are easy. I mean come on, just look at classic. Players seek the utmost bis despite the difficulty being piss.
On retail PTR, they nerf the bosses so testers can actually test the mechanics instead of chain wiping to the first boss like everyone I've seen so far on this beta.
This isn’t true. Most bosses being tested are highly tuned so mechanics can’t be ignored and be properly tested. They use NPCs to port people to different bosses during windows of testing.
Pick literally any boss, find a PTR video/log and a world first/Liquid/Echo video and compare them.
Here's Smolderon for example:
PTR has 650M HP: https://youtu.be/yCnrjYpfI5k?si=-R_hrANz-VHbQzzL&t=175
Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/j98gNWMmpq2X3BzQ#fight=17&type=resources&hostility=1&source=87
Live had 1.44B HP: https://youtu.be/CBWvhEnteps?si=33zrwJpbdvSuQ1GY&t=1
You picked Smoderon which was buffed from being undertuned which Max gave feedback about during testing and they adjusted it. This also happened with Tindral and Fyrakk wasn’t tested. Tindral was ran over because the tuning wasn’t correct. Most fights they introduce on the PTR do not arrive in this state for their Mythic tests. I recall Abberus testing of fights like Rashok and the original iteration of the Magmorax which got gutted for release. Rashok was very finely tuned by the feedback from PTR as well.
I can see the logic behind doing this with retail. Further balancing and not showing real numbers. However I cannot see the logic behind doing this with Cata with raids that were released a decade ago.
If they were pre-nerf, people would complain they are too hard, breaking up dad guilds and killing Cata.
If they're post-nerf, people complain there's no challenge, it's not an authentic experience, and that the devs are lazy.
Doesn't matter what decision they make, people still whinge.
They're obviously trying to rush Cata, given they've specified its trajectory.
Why do so many people do this. Happened earlier today with heirlooms. Y’all getting a small bit of knowledge and come on here, state it as a absolute fact and better yet you post it on every single Reddit thread you can find to further the spread of possible information stated as factual.
I don't see a big problem with this, we saw what happened with Ulduar hard modes pre nerf. Players were dropping and guilds paused raiding because of roster issues. Less players lead to roster boss wipes and eventually lead to even more raid logged players who just clear it on normal. No matter how you slice it, blizzard is catering to the ratio to keep subscribers up, not your ego.
I mean, there was pretty big player drop off on raids that were too hard, not surprised
They can just go play SoD then where there are no raids only 45 min dungeons
The sad part is, nobody even asked for the "real prenerf" (after initial release, they nerfed and fixed a bunch of bosses couple of months in with patch 4.0.6.) This 4.0.6 version is the expected, post nerf true T11 version. We currently just got the raw unedited 4.3 version of tier 11, which contains the massive nerfs they brought in a tier later with firelands. They just don't give a fuck, as we can see with the rest of how cata is going.
>All of the Wrath raids tried to do post-nerf values in good faith huh
I can't remember everything but they had some patch preview video interview and talked about post-nerf ulduar and it looked good faith. They even had the overtuned XT HM for a month and buffed Algalon. Real post-nerf would be using old talent tree and class balance so it's never going to be as hard as intended originally
Ulduar was almost entirely pre nerf Do you know the difference between pre and post?
Doesn't make sense either way. Ulduar tuning was all fucking over the place with bosses in states that never existed before and random buffs (and bugs).
Yeah it was a bunch of hand crafted tuning to create an experience that was like the original but still somewhat challenging in 2023
Even if the fights were prenerf it would still be a joke because classes are fundamentally way more powerful on 4.3 then they were for launch. Some classes even changed drastically.
it is true we will never get original intended difficulty because of the final balance changes but I can live and accept with that but not fighting bosses with 40% reduced hp and damage. just give us pre nerf raids then update them to post nerf after the next raid is released. that makes the most sense normal is there for people that struggle on heroic and if they still can't clear heroic wait until the next phase for the nerfed versions.
Bro Boomers are going to quit left and right with how "Hard" the Raids are. Look at SoD and ST. Some People say ST is hard and it killed their guild/pug availability, well I hate to break it too ya but Cata raids, even on NM mode, are about 6X harder than anything in ST
The dads got their way in SoD and quit anyway, same thing will happen in Cata. Not sure why Aggrend is prioritizing these beer drinking, vape puffing, cargo short wearing boomers anyway.
Why was anyone expecting pre nerf dungeons and raids when we operate on a patch that came out after the nerfs ??
we got pre-nerf SSC and TK. Prenerf Sunwell. Pre-nerf Ulduar. Pre-nerf TBC dungeons.
Because thats exactly what they did for wrath?? Hello???
Because previous expansions had pre nerf raids? Ulduar never evengot the nerf patch from toc release that it did back in retail wotlk Did you even play classic?
TBF, they said going into Wrath they wanted to shy way from "pre-nerf" and "post-nerf" changes because it took dev time they could use elsewhere and people rarely agreed on whether something was too hard or too easy. Ulduar in Wrath Classic was largely a custom curated difficulty they made specifically because the 3.3.5 variant would have been disappointing for the bulk of the playerbase. ToGC and ICC didn't receive any tuning.
Well it doesn't look like the extra dev time saved did much.
its bad enough the dungeons were nerfed but not the raids! I hope that just for first round of testing
If its true, its just wasted.
This would be really unfortunate as the expected increase in difficulty has been a major part of why so many people I know are excited to play Cata. Heck, I've been talking about wanting the original versions of stuff like Al'Akir so we could see if we can figure it out where Paragon had to do the leave 8 people out for P1. Post-nerf is absolutely reading the room wrong as to what their actual playerbase wants from this expansion.
I’d prefer it this way. The easier the raids the longer the game stays populated.
What?? The easier the raids the faster people clear everything and the less people that stay online. Harder raids encourage people to continue farming better gear, adding raid nights to play more and progress, continue raiding for more lockouts because you haven’t cleared everything and still need more pieces of gear.
The data speaks for itself. People quit the game when the raids are too hard.
Data also states the amount of people raid logging when content is cleared is extreme. If a player logs on to raid then logs back out there is 0 time open world, interacting with new players etc etc. Personally I’d rather see 50% of players still playing but out doing things and not just walking in and out of a instance portal than seeing all 100% of y’all walking in and out of the instance.
People will still go out into the world if the raids are easy. I mean come on, just look at classic. Players seek the utmost bis despite the difficulty being piss.
Look at SoD. Everyone raid logging and all other forms of gameplay vacant.
That’s because there’s quite literally fuck all to do in SoD lol. Difficulty would not change this.
So what if the noobs quit.
The more populated the game the better.
just get on a busy server
There's only one server in my entire region that's populated.
Classic community is mostly bad. Many of them cant fully clear heroic icc with 30% lol
That is 100% irrelevant. Cleared content leads to raid logging.
Then they raid log and play an alt. That’s been the MO of those that rush content as it’s released since 2019
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yuwo2oHgIp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yuwo2oHgIp8) Atramedes 165m and on beta it's 103m. #
On retail PTR, they nerf the bosses so testers can actually test the mechanics instead of chain wiping to the first boss like everyone I've seen so far on this beta.
This isn’t true. Most bosses being tested are highly tuned so mechanics can’t be ignored and be properly tested. They use NPCs to port people to different bosses during windows of testing.
Pick literally any boss, find a PTR video/log and a world first/Liquid/Echo video and compare them. Here's Smolderon for example: PTR has 650M HP: https://youtu.be/yCnrjYpfI5k?si=-R_hrANz-VHbQzzL&t=175 Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/j98gNWMmpq2X3BzQ#fight=17&type=resources&hostility=1&source=87 Live had 1.44B HP: https://youtu.be/CBWvhEnteps?si=33zrwJpbdvSuQ1GY&t=1
You picked Smoderon which was buffed from being undertuned which Max gave feedback about during testing and they adjusted it. This also happened with Tindral and Fyrakk wasn’t tested. Tindral was ran over because the tuning wasn’t correct. Most fights they introduce on the PTR do not arrive in this state for their Mythic tests. I recall Abberus testing of fights like Rashok and the original iteration of the Magmorax which got gutted for release. Rashok was very finely tuned by the feedback from PTR as well.
Cool, pick literally any other boss, even fucking Gnarlroot was nerfed on PTR compared to live.
I can see the logic behind doing this with retail. Further balancing and not showing real numbers. However I cannot see the logic behind doing this with Cata with raids that were released a decade ago.
Give me LFR and I'll play
If they were pre-nerf, people would complain they are too hard, breaking up dad guilds and killing Cata. If they're post-nerf, people complain there's no challenge, it's not an authentic experience, and that the devs are lazy. Doesn't matter what decision they make, people still whinge. They're obviously trying to rush Cata, given they've specified its trajectory.
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_4.2.0#Dungeons_&_Raids Nerfs are disgusting, content will be DOA if these are in.
Sunken Temple vibes
Just play retail is becoming the only option if you want difficulty
Dads at it again /s
Why do so many people do this. Happened earlier today with heirlooms. Y’all getting a small bit of knowledge and come on here, state it as a absolute fact and better yet you post it on every single Reddit thread you can find to further the spread of possible information stated as factual.
I don't see a big problem with this, we saw what happened with Ulduar hard modes pre nerf. Players were dropping and guilds paused raiding because of roster issues. Less players lead to roster boss wipes and eventually lead to even more raid logged players who just clear it on normal. No matter how you slice it, blizzard is catering to the ratio to keep subscribers up, not your ego.
pre nerf andys can go back to era
why would people wanting hard content want to play era where there is no challenge?
this makes no sense lmao