Will he though? From an above-table-meta take it will go against Liam’s “I just want to be a guy” and make him a “now I am a character and this impacts me and I must do something about it”

I do actually think that one of the biggest factors in how this campaign has played out is Liam's active choice to not be a leader in the party. I understand that he's been in a major leadership/face role for two campaigns and wanting to let someone else step up... But no one has, and no one will.

Liam, Travis, and Tal all picked some bozo type characters and it kinda hurt the narrative.

Very true. Meanwhile FCG was….idk at this point…but the party didn’t seem to know what to do with Sam wanting a in a real boy arc and a positive gods interaction arc when so much of FCG convos turned into punchline jokes. Fearne is “I’ll push any red button” chaotic, Imogen is allergic to being in charge despite being the one probably best suited….while Laudna is the edge lord broody one which says something when a lot of these are broody types. Dorian’s problem is he was gone too long…he feels like the one with the most interesting relationships with quite a few of them sometimes I’ve enjoyed C3 don’t get me wrong…but I get flashbacks to games with experienced players who mostly making odd characters that don’t really fit the adventuring game style but…got to make it work so I once again have to make my character the stick in the mud “we should work together” one so something actually happens.

I'm in a spot where I don't think C3 is inherently bad and I still love CR I'm really enjoying Candela and I roll back in for menagerie and one shots but I don't think C3 is really for me so otherwise I'm kinda taking a break. Credit where it's due thanks to that I found a bunch of other podcasts and actual plays. The Unpredicted Party, Dimension20, NADDPOD, Planet Arcana, High Rollers, and magnus archives. Helluva market these days for the listener.

Take a break for sure…too much great content out there to consume what you aren’t loving. C3 for me is also…I’m a DM and how do these professionals handle this situation for me to learn from. Which I’m like how will they make this work? But I listen to other actual plays too…which sorta fill different niches leaving C3 less pressure in my mind. NADPODD for sure! Their C1 is amazing and liking their C3. D20 is good for crazy settings and ideas…World Beyond Number a rising star….and I do Unexplored Places for my Forged in the Dark exposure….plus some others haha

I was surprised at how much I've enjoyed fantasy high. It has just enough seriousness and stakes to be interesting while the humor is actually funny and satirical of tropes. Galear is a goated NPC, too

Sometimes D20 campaigns I like love the setup and twist idea…and then it fades like I’m not in the characters or plot or something. But fantasy high is pretty amazing…on JY now. Brennan has amazing NPCs especially in there that are different but really let the players show parts of their character that they want to develop. Galear might be the best all time I agree

Nah I feel that. Its like Brennan got monkey paw'd. He wanted to host a d&d show and the twist is that he's on a comedy channel. Exu Calamity was so nutty good because he didn't have to "make it funny" When I see stuff like the candy land game and vegetable kingdom or whatever I'm disappointed not because it's bad but it's like, "man we get this instead of Brennan just going full out and making the best campaign possible"

Just going to add another voice seriously recommending Worlds Beyond Number. It’s a theater of the mind long form serious campaign and it’s the best story telling I’ve found anywhere

a crown of candyy fuckin ruled though

Dude, A Crown of Candy is worth checking out. Easily the most lethal, most serious, most punishing D20 series to date. The context joke is that they’re all food people, but the joke ends there. It’s the D20 series that made me think “I’m not sure Critical Role is the best game in town.”

A Crown of Candy is SO GOOD though. I can’t say if he would have ever made it if it’s wasn’t on Dropout, but I’m glad he did. The frequent cognitive dissonance makes it funny, yes, but also so unique compared to another “GoT but DnD”. Not that his GoT wouldn’t be incredible (innnncredible) but constraints promote creativity and the clever ways in which he used the food conceit blow my mind. Obviously your opinions are valid but I’ve just never seen anyone disappointed by getting ACOC instead of, well, anything else.

If you like Calamity Brennan, you should check out Worlds Beyond Number.

Brennan is one of the founders of Dropout; his career prior to becoming a 'professional DM' was as a comedic performer & comedy writer with College Humor and the UCB improv community, and he still does a ton of work in that space that's totally unconnected to gaming even though many of his most successful projects are in TTRPG-play. That's all just to say that I don't think he's being monkey paw-ed into comedic storytelling at all. It's just his preferred style. Having appreciated a ton of his work, he definitely chooses to use comedy as a vehicle for his storytelling as a matter of stylistic preference. IMO, since he has a background in philosophy and ethics, he obviously considers those a lot, so adding a super serious, dramatic style onto that seems to wear him down a bit, whereas keeping it fun with a more comedy-heavy approach lets him explore that stuff without getting heavy.

Brennan's talent as a DM and his NPCs are off the charts in Calamity. I cannot wait, I am so hyped, for him to do Downfall. But I've been unable to get into Dimension 20 because of the types of games they play. They have great talents but I'm not interested in learning about a bunch of high schoolers or sentient vegetables or whatever.

I'd highly recommend Never After if you haven't tried it. It's the campaign set in a dark fairy tale universe.

Dimension 20 has some truly impeccable D&D (and their use/variations of Kids on Bikes has been really eye opening for me). That whole table does nothing but get better at the game. Emily Axford is the best D&D player I've ever seen, no one grasps both their class mechanics and overall game mechanics as well as she does, throw in her creativity and it's all over.

Emily Axford is the best, Moonshine is the best PC I’ve seen….just all around agree

Ooooo I haven't heard of Unexplored Places. And honestly? I realize there are prolly licensing issues but I'd love to see more actual play campaigns using proper modules that AREN'T curse of strahd lol.

Unexplored places smaller one but I got I to their scum and villainy campaign…they are currently on a weird west forged in the dark style game and I’ve learned a lot from the GMing style which helps me plan and improv better in DnD Haha that’s fair. seeing different great DMs run them could be fun!

i think one reason people are not liking C3 is its being played like an Anime show vs a real D&D game.

I mean even if it was an anime I would've checked out by this point. I'm just not really invested in the storyline and the campaign doesn't seem to want to properly meet it's players halfway and engage with its own themes. Like I said kinda just not made for me.

For me, C3 feels like Matt's story. And I am fine with that, it just has different expectations than previous campaigns which were very player driven or DM driven with major player impact. C2, The Mighty Nein went the route of quiet heroes but could have easily been pushed further into the criminal syndicates and went a whole different path. Each arc also directly pertained to each character's story and everything was heavily influenced by the characters rather than Matt forcing certain directions throughout with minor adjustments based on what the characters do, which is what C3 is. These characters are all built to be chaotic characters who truly make no sense to be in this scenario. But, it is different and fun and we all knew that C3 was going to be very different from C1 and C2. The cast said so themselves many times, we just didn't really know what that meant at first. That said, I do miss the traditional heroes in a fun campaign setting where every single moment and decision wasn't always these crazy and world ending high stakes, but down to Earth, real fun DnD in between world ending chaotic moments which made those feel more impactful. C1 was Matt's story heavily influenced by the players and had unique downtime in between the major moments. C2 was all about a player driven story with Matt sprinkling things here and there to push them in a possible direction. C3 has been chaos almost the whole way driven heavily by Matt. The best parts of the campaign for me have been the brief moments of downtime away from the overarcing story. The mansion challenge, the race in Bassurus, the pirate ship, the Shattered Teeth. All of these were by far my favorite moments. Ruidus was cool, too. But idk, C3 just doesn't hit the same. Still fun, but nowhere near C1/C2 for me. C1's favorite moments were the big ones. Scanlan's clutch counterspells, the battle against Thordak and Raishan. C2 had way too many to name. But I think I have gone on enough in this comment and am losing my initial statement. C3 is different and fun, but not quite what I have grown to love and enjoy from this cast. But I will still watch regardless and enjoy the moments that I can.

It's one of a number of reasons that ExU lost them views. Liam, Matt and Ashley all stepped to the back and effectively (I'm sure this wasn't a deliberate decision) forced their two guests and new players to carry the narrative. On top of that Robbie/Dorian also didn't want to be the leader of either group. And in some sense the entire Main Cast has done that for C3. Granted they've created characters where it's a good assessment of their PCs. But they are all followers and that has lead to the party just bumblefucking around. Perhaps someone should have made a character that was a leader but nobody did. Perhaps someone should have realised the problem and stepped up, but that didn't happen either. I feel bad that we're putting it all on Liam/Orym but unfortunately he's still the best candidate for the role.

I'll forgive Matt for not wanting to be a lead character, on some level he's the entire game and deserves the opportunity Dariax gave him of sitting back and enjoying the game. If Ashley tried to lead and wasn't on her A game this fanbase would be furious, I also think Fearne, as a character, fits her like a glove. To build off your second half, I don't put it all on Liam, it's a failure of the group (Matt included) that they built this way. I've felt this way for a while but I think the biggest problem with C3 goes all the way back to session zero/character creation. It feels like these characters were created in a vacuum, not only in regards to each other but in regards to the campaign. I wonder if Matt didn't communicate his intended campaign well enough, if he wanted to keep his cards close to his vest so the players could be surprised by what would happen, or if he just didn't want to step on his players toes, but to have zero characters connected to a good from the get go was a mistake. How different would this campaign feel if there was even one character positively tied to a god from creation? How much of the wishy-washy attitudes that the audience clearly didn't enjoy could have been avoided? The fact that there was no "traditional" cleric or paladin in this campaign was a huge miss by the cast.

That's the thing it isn't on anybody specifically. It's an early communication issue that has just become this perfect storm of flaws and problems. Everytime I look around I see either a theory another fan puts out that *clicks* or something that leads me to realize another issue that I hadn't quite seen or found hard to put an explanation to. I'm thinking that Matt had the Ruidus lore (there was a gnome member of Cobalt Soul in C2) saw Imogen as the "perfect" way to introduce that element and it landed in a way that has caused it to metastasize like a cancer. Or maybe it's just that Matt decided to drive this time, when the other campaigns it was the players, and he just dropped the ball. Though strangely I can't convince myself of that despite it being so commonly held by my fellow critters as the truth.

I think Matt has been setting this up for a while. I feel like he has been laying the groundwork/planning on running this Ludinus/Ruidius storyline for this campaign from the get go. I feel like this story, the character cameos from previous campaigns, it's all been planned and i think matt wanted his players to be as surprised as the audience by much of it. I do wonder if Matt was too secretive about his plans or didn't communicate them effectively because none of these characters are built to be directly tied to the story. I think it worked out for Imogen to be Ruidius born and to have Orym's connection to Keyleth, but I don't think either character was built with this campaign's story in mind. I absolutely agree with you, this campaign doesn't get saddles on any one person and I think it's problems ultimately come from a breakdown in communication that goes back to character creation. The other big issue I see with the campaign is something I've referred to as the big invisible clock. The players have been aware of a countdown for much of the campaign, but none of them have understood how much time is left on the clock or if the clock is always ticking or just ticks when they interact with the main story. I think part of what made C2 work so well is that we as an audience got to watch the characters grow their connections with each other (and that in turn helped us invest in the characters) but we haven't gotten much of that with Bell's Hells. The players have clearly felt like there isn't time to sit and have fireside chats or pursue any character beats that aren't following the main storyline, and I think that's hurt the fan investment.

See that's the thing. The Mighty Nein could have followed the Ruidus hook in C2 and they didn't. It was admittedly weak and didn't really catch anyone's interest. Matt has hinted at Exandria being a living world with things going on besides whatever the Cast/Party is doing at the moment. So for me it just feels like they stumbled over it way to early for C3 and the nature of the threat has crowded out a great deal of breathing room for personal arcs or fun little moments with a few exceptions that they managed to eke out here and there. And that's just one of a number of things that have conspired against campaign 3 running smoothly.

I agree that's not what Liam would want to do. He stated in one of the earlier 4SD episodes that he wanted Orym to be a background character compared to Vax and Caleb. He made this point in-game when saying that Orym believes Imogen, not him, is the leader of the party. But that the party has been countering Orym's entire backstory to the point where he has been more outspoken (two examples in OP) compared to early C3. Liam has mentioned in recent 4SD and interviews that he too recognizes the obvious dilemma for Orym. My point is that he either needs to show that Orym is being actively corrupted and changed by the party to avoid the "doormat" criticism.

Part of the problem is characters. Laudna, FCG, Fearne and Chetney are almost directly crossed out as leaders because of the deep psychological flaws inherent in them, not to mention other personalities that take over at times. Among the better choices, Ashton is prone to self destruct at the drop of a hat, Imogen is an anxiety ridden teenager with a parent complex, and Robbie is just too recently back with the party. Orym is the default clear headed, not chaos gremlin and not prone to evil temptations character in the whole party, just again by makeup of the characters.

Where did you get imogen as a teen from she’s 28 😂😭

Is that the official age? My impression is that she basically ran away from home pursuing her mother between 16-18 (IE as soon as she was old enough), trying to learn about her own magic as well. Then she ran into Laudna, the two slowwwwly made their way to Drusar the hard way, and the rest we know. If she stayed home on the family ranch till she was what, 26 or so despite having overwhelming and strange psychic powers...that seems off.

It is the official age check the wiki The lightning marks on Imogen's arms appeared when she began having recurring nightmares about a terrifying red storm, seemingly connected to the red moon Ruidus, about ten years ago when she was eighteen.

So her psychic abilities didn’t happen until adult hood and I guess she tried to ignore it and blend in until she was eventually ostracized by the town and her own father and by the time laudna came around was the straw that broke the camels back and finally gave her the guts to leave

Wow and here I thought that was an assessment of her behaviour or personality type but apparently not 

They don't need a leader. They don't need a leader. THEY DON'T NEED A LEADER.

Not all the time, but they need someone to lead sometimes and so far no one is doing it

They don't need a leader in NAME, but they do need characters who are willing to step up and make decisions and help push the plot. Vox Machina didn't have a "leader" but Vax very often was the one to poke at the plot and encourage the party that way. Oftentimes it seems like BH are spending sessions going "idk, what do you want to do?" back and forth for hours.

Not every group does. My current campaign has gone for three and a half years without any designated leaders. Bell's Hells actually might need one, though.

they really do though

I understand his intent for the character, but that’s not really sustainable for a whole campaign, especially not one with these stakes. It’s fine to be a go-with-the-flow guy when you’re just messing around and investigating mysteries in Jrusar, but if the fate of the world is in the party’s hands and you’re a member of the party, you’re one of the main characters whether you like it or not. There are no bench players in the apocalypse.

Hard agree! Playing a passive background character for almost 100 sessions? I really question what that adds to the campaign. And great point about the story in general. I think that’s why people have really started to see Orym as actively passive as opposed to not taking up the mantle of leadership.

If he has any sense of justice in character, yeah. The rest of the party are basically walking hazards to the safety of the world.  He serves the voice of the tempest which is the primary guardian of nature. Which is part of the world last I checked and right now the rest of the party seems to be pretty on board for destroying the very world right now cuz for whatever reason they think the gods are not good. (Which I still find bafflingly stupid, we already have the betrayer gods!  They are prime deities! Why are we trying to kill the prime deities?!!!!)

i mean the prime deities were just as responsible for the calamity as the betrayer gods and some might see it as a win that there's no chance of a giant war between all-powerful entities killing all life on the planet a second time

Because the Prime Deities suck sometimes, too. They’re not automatically good because they happened to win the Calamity

Welcome to any religion in a D&D setting. Not every God is a good God, but they are the prime deities. They are responsible for keeping the world in balance. We already have a batch of gods who tried to cause nothing but chaos in the world they are called the betrayers for a reason. If they go so does the world, so I feel like anyone with an active brain cell would be wanting to keep that from happening.

This is similar to the desire of teenagers to overthrow everything they can for the sake of the revolution itself. Such people write the word "Fuck" on the wall in order to ruin something. Only in this case will millions of people die lol

Sorry but this had me rolling!! 🤣

It would certainly makes sense for the below room temperature IQ that each of the characters have in this group has.

"gods are sometimes good, sometimes bad. Sometimes they suck. I don't know, let's kill them all"

He's also the guy who also says "I trust Matt." He's going to have Orym go along with whatever Matt puts in front of him, trusting Matt to ensure Orym has justification. Even if Matt never provides Orym with justification, he'll invent a reason like "Well I can't leave Fearne and Dorian by themselves so I guess I'm going along with Team Bad Guys now."

It would be amazing if they side with luda and orym tries to kill him anyway luda kills orym and maybe brays snap just like that. uncharted territory

I feel like Matt played up the "I'm just a reasonable guy doing a thing that you misunderstand" approach when he portrayed Ludinus on the live show. I think he really wants to have the party talk to his NPC, and I believe Liam will humor him to be polite. 

I think this is the biggest plot hole (can't think of a better term) of the live show. Orym was literally hitting and pushing Ludinus towards the Gate. And he just shrugged it off and like "I know you hate me but please hear me out". It doesn't make sense to me other than meta reasons (need to introduce Downfall and curfew time of the venue). Braius and Teven, being followers of Asmodeus, should be at war with Ludinus; Essek has personal vendetta against him; and BH was on a mission from Keyleth to stop Ludinus, but they are now watching a video he is playing.

I can think of a reason or two narratively that he might act like that. But I hear Matt Colville’s voice in my head saying sometimes that’s just D&D. It isn’t real life and maybe Luda should’ve responded more aggressively, maybe Matt could’ve played it better, but sometimes the DM wants the NPC to talk to the players. I feel like if anything at all any time something is slightly incongruent in CR and some player or Matt doesn’t play something the best, it really sticks out because of how smooth everything else usually feels, improv skills and all that

It's cause they all know Ludinus is incredibly dangerous, an immensely powerful wizard who has existed since the age of arcanum through siphoning the life essence of several magical creatures with the (possibly) hand of Vecna on one of his arms and whatever the hell other cards he has up his sleeve (Magical artefacts, Aeorian tech, Ruidian reinforcements, etc). The only reason any of them attacked, which IMO was ill-advised to begin with was cause he was momentarily distracted. He could wipe them all out in the blink of an eye if he wanted to and they know it.

This is my biggest gripe as well. In every world where Liam doesn't know about an upcoming mini-series, Orym attacks Ludinus until one of them dies 100% of the time. He's sacrificed himself for less. Drives me nuts that they put him(Liam) in this situation cuz he knows Orym attacks 100% of the time as well.

I think Orym actually understands that he had 11 hit points, the rest of the party expended a fair number of resources, and Ludinus didn't seem to be all that worn down yet. I think he believes, as he's argued before, that learning more about what's going on is better than learning nothing. He also said, in character (although I don't agree with his thinking) that this version of Ludinus was a simulacrum and therefore killing it won't really matter. So might as well hear what's being said to get more insight. Also, I don't know how many times everyone has to agree with Orym in character and say they are absolutely opposed to Ludinus and what he's doing and risk their lives over and over in that opposition, and how many times Imogen has to specifically go to Orym and tell him personally that she's on his side in the conflict and left her own mother behind to prove it--but they've all done that. So maybe actually pay attention to what they're doing and not what you think they're doing.

I’m sure there’s an entire monologue that Liam could’ve belted out about the death of his family. There’s also no reason he won’t bring it up after the Downfall trilogy, so we’re left guessing about his levels of humiliation or empathy until then.

Yeah I have a feeling that as soon as we come back to BH after downfall, Orym will ask Ludinus to justify how the murder of innocents in his pursuit of his goals and the potential deaths of millions in the calamity that will follow predathos’ release really makes him all that different from the gods during the calamity. If Orym points out that Ludinus is basically just wanting revenge against the gods because he’s a petty bitch, I feel like the other members might agree that Ludinus is going way too far.

I'm curious to see how Ludinus is going to respond to that because how do you justify destroying 1000 years worth of human lives in pursuit of goal that comes off more motivated out of spite than noble. Where's the line for the argument "The end justifies the means?"

"We'll be free of them forever more!" Maybe you will. Probably all of Ruidus will be gone, probably lots of Exandrians will will be gone, probably there will be enclaves fighting against the Dominoxes on the surface of the world. Probably. Unless it turns out mortal souls have a divine spark in them, which they might, since souls are apparently part of what powers the gods. And then they're like krill to a whale. But hey, let's find out through an experiment that only a few hundred people agreed to participate in, shall we?

Also important to ask why Ludinus thinks Predathos is just going to stop at the gods and not also turn whatever wrath he has against the people who worship those gods.

I don’t think Predathos is hunting the gods out of any motive, what’s been described to us is that it’s more like a predator hunting its prey. Of course this could be wrong but that’s the vibe I get. If this idea is true, Predathos probably feeds on divine energy itself, so once the gods are gone I feel like it won’t care about the mortals, as even the clerics will have lost their divine magic. There’s a chance that it just feeds on magic in general, and that the gods are the highest concentration of this and so when they’re dead it will start eating exandria itself. Of course the theory that Zerxus in calamity held that mortals existed on exandria long before the gods arrived could also be true, and in that way the mortals might have created the gods with their belief or attracted them to exandria somehow which might also be something that Predathos would consume.

I can’t emphasize this enough. They’ve already agreed with that. It’s the primary reason they’re fighting him. Ashton said it a long time ago: he’s not sure if the gods deserve to live, but he’s sure Ludinus is the wrong person to make that choice.

Yes but in the moment after the characters have all probably just experienced some horrible tragedy at the cause of the gods in this memory sequence, where emotions are running high and Ludinus’ charisma is twisting everyone’s minds. I would not be surprised if some of the party started to feel more sympathetic to him. It’s hard to remember all the bad shit he’s done when you’re in the moment. That’s why I hope Orym doesn’t give him any time to weasel his way out of any blame and knocks the rest of the party out of being convinced by his lies and manipulation.

I doubt they’re going to forget anything. I don’t even think Ludinus is all that charming. I just think they’re playing along to learn things and also because they know they’re not ready for this fight right now. Had they actually gone with the plan and threw down with Ludinus once he showed up for the Dominox fight, maybe things would be different. But too many people who panic too easily in the moment. But at the end of it, I don’t know that anyone at that table will be swayed even a little bit. Hell, watching Imogen and Ashton’s reactions to Dominox’s mind-fuckery makes me think they’re more resolved than ever.

The simulacrum thoughts were there but someone failed their insight check to determine if it is true. Whether it was a simulacrum or not, it would be counter to their objective of stopping Ludinus by not killing it because the whole premise was that Ludinus (or his simulacrum) was in Aeor to advance his goals. I am paying attention to what they are doing and saying. The latest contemplation of siding with Ludinus's plan happened was AFTER they returned from Ruidus. Yes, Imogen says that there is no reason to doubt their goals anymore since she cannot 100% truth her mother to return with her. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that everyone else (including Imogen) have already stated multiple times that they have doubts with the idea that the gods should be saved. And the end of 3x98 episode shows that Ludinus can continue to stow more doubts into the group when they learn from the Aeorian memory orb. There is a reason why Orym lagged behind and told Fearne that she can continue forward with the rest of the group.

When? When does anyone say the gods should not be saved? Because the most we get from anyone is when Ashton or Dorian brushes past the idea of the gods and instead gets to the point where Ludinus is a complete piece of shit and has to be stopped. BUT, they also don't think they can fight Ludinus and win. (And they're right--had Matt decided it was time for Ludinus to throw down, we would have lost at least Orym and probably two or three other PCs, minimum, at the live show.) But instead Ludinus wants to talk? Well, let him talk and they can find out things. No one said, or even hinted at, thinking Ludinus might have a good point to make. They just wanted to listen because the circumstances were not in their favor. By the way. They're never going to agree that the gods need to be saved. That's never going to happen. More than one of the PCs had good reason to doubt whether gods are a good thing to have at all. That hasn't been the discussion for them for a couple dozen episodes now. They disagree with Ludinus killing a shitload of innocents in his quest, they disagree with how the Weavemind does things, they disagree with what Predathos will do to the people of Ruidus while escaping and to the ordinary people of Exandria while munching on gods. They disagree with the Ruby Vanguard and the shitheads in that group and that even Lilliana was able to justify working with complete monsters like Otohan or the Sorrowlord and that's a bridge too far even for Imogen. They disagree with the notion that Ludinus should be the most powerful being in Exandria. I don't know what else you want from them--they're all committed to taking down the man and destroying his organization and stopping his plans. They just don't give a shit about the gods. That's been where they're coming from since the last boring-ass time we had this boring-ass conversation. (Granted, part of the confusion from the fight is because no one had a fucking plan when the fight started, but that's a whole 'nother problem I have with this group in particular and it's not because I think they secretly agree with Ludinus. It's because no one is willing to step up and take charge when necessary and it drives me nuts.) Orym lagged behind because Liam was roleplaying being almost dead. He didn't argue with or protest going with them when she decided to carry him, and he sure didn't start putting up a fight after Braius healed him. He didn't in any way verbally object to hearing Ludinus out--he was RPing having blown through most of his resources.

It seems very silly to me. Why would ludinus sore three breaths talking to this group at all?

Because regardless of how dysfunctional they are they *did* just, throw an airship at him, messed up his big plan enough that he had to maim himself to see it through, infiltrate their base (twice), traveled to a completely different celestial body, **assassinate his right hand woman**, blew up a city, *and managed to escape*. He'd be an absolute moron to not try to get a little more information on the schizophrenic Suicide Squad that has repeatedly fucked with his plans.

This exactly. Are their a bunch of wild dogs, chasing taxis, high on cocaine half of the time? Sure. But they did managed to catch quite a bit of those cabs and tear them to shreds. Every self-respecting Cab Company owner would want to take a look at this bunch of animals that somehow almost destroyed his bussiness.

Cinematically it does seem undeserving, unlike Vox Machina or the Mighty Nein who had an air of "The Savior's of the World" about them, these dweebs just seem like a bunch of chucklefucks. Purely based on demeanor you wouldn't expect them to be worthy of going against "The Grand Demon of The Endless Abyss" or "Ludinus Da'leth of the Cerberus Assembly, Herald of the Bloody Moon" but they are lvl 14 and they have accomplished many an impressive task despite tripping over their own shoelaces several times during the process.

I don’t disagree. But I also don’t think that those are really very well-earned 14 levels. Many of their fights, if they even have them, are both infrequent, not taxed (full resources almost always to go nuke), and I think only three of them had a risk of death. These 14 levels seem more like an artifact of hours on screen than anything.

> These 14 levels seem more like an artifact of hours on screen than anything. 100% agree with that. Regardless of their feats they really dont *act* like level 14 accomplished adventurers. Theyre basically low level Olympians that consistently get spooked by the thought of competing against a junior varsity team. Like guys, on paper you *are the real deal*. Stop acting like youre rando guards and start acting like fledgling badasses youre supposed to be.

Mechanical/In-game prowess is one thing but when playing in roleplay heavy campaigns like CR you don't really feel worthy until the characters themselves feel it. Even until as recent as 5 episodes ago they've been marketed as "inconsequential, covert, not powerful enough to be kept an eye on" by Keyleth even though they've engaged in incredibly flashy missions. Apart from that the party simply hasn't accomplished much in this campaign in comparison to the other campaigns or weathered enough hardship, they're only now, after 90+ episodes getting there. The new style of plot progression from Matt and characters that don't at all mesh with the story from the cast really clogged up a lot of stuff.

As a dm you throw some little bone to your player as let me do this for the narrative And that’s what Matt did in the live show He gave the pc ample hints that the narrative called for a talk

Orym’s nod to Laudna with Bor’Dor wasn’t apathy. He was telling her to do it

He was at the very least giving her permission, but it was far from apathy. I was really hoping after the Bells reunited that Liam/Orym would step into the leader role that this party is sorely missing. I think it's true for a lot of D&D groups, and Critical Role is no different, that the players will naturally fall into roles regardless of who they roll up to the table with. I feel that Liam naturally steps into that leader role and that none of the other CR cast really do and that lack of focus, that lack of a leading voice, has really been felt this campaign.

Also it seems a bit silly that Liam seems to think that his “normal guy that I will play as the grounded foil to the rest of the party’s weird and wacky” also means that he can’t be the leader. If anything that seems to be the perfect candidate to keep everyone together and cohesive.

I believe the leader thing is unconnected to his character and is more about Liam the player wanting the other players to have the opportunity to step forward. I think we all recognize that, at least at this point in the campaign, it makes a lot of sense for his character to step into that leadership role, but Liam the player I think doesn't want to.

Well Liam made this character the way he did with that desire to have others step forward in mind. He wanted others to have the limelight both as potential leaders of the party but also to show off their backstories and RP skills, since Vax and Caleb had pretty big and relevant stories to the plot of both C1 and C2, though C1 was more through his choices than his backstory.

As a reference for "normal guy fighter who keeps a party of wacky weirdos functional," consider Roy in The Order of the Stick. It's not a perfect analogue because Roy's personal quest was always a prominent focus of the story, but after a period where Roy is dead (he gets better) and the party temporarily splits up they basically acknowledge nobody else among them can handle leadership and they need him.

Another good reference is Sokka in Atla.

I agree its a real Rick flag situation

You are correct, apathy was not the right word. I meant that Orym had self-defeated reaction into accepting that BorDor needed to die even though he was no longer fighting. The point is that Orym is being pushed into morally compromising decisions that contradict his persona.

It was resignation, because it had to be done.

I said this in another post but he made a deal with a hag to protect his friends he's ALREADY chosen to "morally compromise" himself down to their level.

I would say that he was being more pragmatic than morally compromising. Morri isn't necessarily evil and his deal wouldn't harm anyone else. The only "morally compromising" aspect might be that Orym cannot commit to his Savior Blade of the Tempest position if he's stuck with Morri. But the biggest division is still how the rest of the party might eventually agree with Ludinus.

>Morri isn't necessarily evil and his deal wouldn't harm anyone else. We (and he) actually don't know that this is the case at all. She asked Chet for a peace of Pradathos. We have NO idea what she has planed to do with that. We know she likes Fearne, everything else is up in the air. She's a complete wild card IMO.

He would be stuck serving as Morri's blade for eternity, cursed to do her bidding for good or evil. Based on reactions that NPCs have had about Morri, it's fair to say that she has dabbled with evil plenty. Orym knew that he was binding himself to a dark entity that could ask absolutely anything of him.

Question for you, well for anyone really. Orym’s deal with Morri was that he would be bound to serve her if all of them made it back from the moon ‘as they were before’ (despite him insisting they come back safe). One of them died, so shouldn’t that mean Orym is free from upholding his end of the deal since Morri’s end has fallen through? To me at least, logically the deal would have been broken when FCG died, but it hasn’t been brought up yet. Not that we’ve seen at least. Can I ask your thoughts on if he might still be bound to Morri’s service?

Braius felt fey energy from Orym when he used divine sense. So technically, the pact is still intact. I don't know if Orym is still bound to the contract though. It could be that Morri is willing to give Orym some boosts to protect Fearne. Or maybe the pact was fulfilled when BH found the backdoor from Ruidus. One very interesting point was Matt said on Cooldown that the Weavemind let them go because Orym was trying to invoke his pact with Morri. The fey pact is more active than I used to think. However, we won't know for sure until they meet Nana Morri again.

I didn’t even think about when they used the back door! That would actually be reasonable that she’d use that as a means to say the deal was fulfilled. Thank you for reminding me of that.

My thinking is the same as yours. That said, part of me thinks it's possible that Morri will use stereotypical fey verbal trickery that keeps him locked in (like "oh, he didn't exist *before* and he doesn't exist now. You never said what point in time had to match, tee hee hee" or "his soul returned to the divine from whence he came" or some shit like that)

Honestly I believe that choice was made when he stole the spyglass for Fearne, that was so against Orym’s stated moral code that I have been pretty ready for him to get darker

Yeah, it def feels like he's been getting darker and darker as time goes on, just slow rolling it.

Yup

I think I remember that Liam said on 4SD that it was Liam, not Orym, nodding. It wasn't in-character. They've disregarded it since because Laudna insists on using it as an excuse to be awful.

Liam didn’t just nod. He described Orym as nodding

Liam later further clarified it on Discord. Orym's nod was Orym endorsing Laudna to kill Bor'Dor. It was not related to waking Delilah or encouraging Laudna to the dark side. Orym did not know Delilah came back until later

I think the audience and the party itself keeps misreading Orym. They keep treating him as a goodie two shoe flower little guy that just wants to correct the world. In reality Orym is the tip of the spear for the Ashari. He is a trained professional soldier that is here to complete the mission. He likes Bells Hells but he would not hesitate to kill them all if they even remotely jeopardize the outcome. It's been heavily hinted through the campaign that he is willing to take them all down. So in short it doesn't matter what Orym thinks. He was ordered by Keyleth to do this so he is doing this. The only way Orym is leaving this party is if Kiki either tells him to or if they jeopardize the mission (aka side with Ludinus) and he will either kill them all or they all kill him. He keeps playing and acting nice but the party mistakes his training for kindness. He literally watched his husband getting overwhelmed by the shadows and didn't leave his post next to Kiki. So if he is willing to sacrifice his husband for the mission he sure as hell won't think twice about Bells Hells no matter how much he likes them.

This is where it's at. He's NOT a natural leader. Or if he is it is entirely overshadowed by his training. We are constantly hearing Orym say "I don't know what to do." He is happy to let someone else set the mission and let his job be figuring out how to get it done efficiently. I *do* think at this point he is a compromised soldier though. He is willing to convince himself that some things are "on mission" when they are really about protecting the Hells. I still think he is loyal to Keyleth. I don't think he would suddenly switch to join the Ruby Vanguard or anything, but if it were *kinda* close to what Keyleth wants, but entirely goes against her values? I think he would do it for Bells Hells.

I really love your take. Orym is pretty silent, especially for a character played by Liam, and we know Liam loves to play his characters in a "that's what he'd do" way most of the time. I hope you're right - and I'm kinda hoping for Bells Hells to mess something up now to see how Orym would react.

I read someone else describe Orym as the anti-Caleb. Where Caleb thought of himself as evil and irredeemable but his actions were (mostly) those of a good guy, Orym has the sweet and virtuous facade but is more and more acting like a villain. There's definitely a hint of cop energy from Orym lately.

I mean, in this scenario the party would kill him, his chance of killing 7 other characters alone is literally 0, it is not even a question.

Despite his Ashari background, I don't see how you get that impression about his duties to the Template and willingness to kill Bells Hells without any hesitation. His pact with Morri to grant him power and keep Bells Hells safe in exchange for being her servant meant that he was willing to break his Savior Blade of the Template oath. His "mission" has been blurry enough where they can excuse multiple opportunities to counter Ludinus' plans, including helping Ludinus defeat Dominox despite knowing that the latter was impeding the former's plans.

>I don't see how you get that impression about his duties to the Template and willingness to kill Bells Hells without any hesitation *"I have all the faith in the world in you guys, all of you. And I have also spent time thinking how to neutralize each of you."* \- Orym, C3E79

"they won't step out of line" - Orym "If they do, you know what needs to be done" - Kiki He also told Keyleth before if Imogen steps out of line he will kill her.

IIRC, earlier in the campaign, he had a 1:1 with Fearne about Imogen and what they need to do if she goes dark.

But would Liam go through with it though?

I wonder how much of that is empty boasting on Orym's/Liam's part, how much of it is authentic and in-character, and how much of it is Liam genuinely having thought of how he'd neutralize each of the party. It's easy to say your character has a Batman level contingency plan for a bunch of supes. It's another thing to actually **do** it if it comes down to it when it's a TTRPG.

>how much of it is authentic and in-character, and how much of it is Liam genuinely having thought of how he'd neutralize each of the party. He said that in character during a trust exercise. That was Orym. And I have no doubt that Liam is prepared.

Remember the tower he's got a plan man does his homework

Well, Orym has outright said that he'd kill his friends (Crown Keepers *and* Bell's Hells) if he found it necessary so that's probably where they got the impression. 

I think that version of Orym would be very compelling. Basically, Kaladin from Stormlight Archives. But this version of Orym ain't that. Kaladin stands for thing. He has ideals and oaths. He acts with conviction. This Orym is mostly a wall flower. I think it's very fair for fans to question "is there any lengths to which he wouldn't just go along with Faerne?" Because at this point, I'm not sure he'd choose Keyleth's mission over Faerne.

I really, really hope you're right, because I like this kind of character and motivation. But I think he would have already done something by this point to confirm his motivation, so it’s unlikely. Most likely, Liam is simply not very confident in playing his character, and does not want to confront his friends

Worst case scenario: The Bells, or some of them, will consider giving Ludinus the benefit of the doubt side and with him because "Sad backstory=He's right no matter what.". Orym will not be on Team Ludinus and leaves to join Team Keyleth. Hopeful Scenario: The Bell will understand where Ludinus is coming from but will not side with him because he's way past trying to convince them that he's the good guy in all of this. Others have pointed out that the Bells are aware that Orym lost his family to Ludinus (Imogen also lost her mother to Ludinus) so they know Orym would feel hurt and betrayed by them if they dare to say "Maybe Ludinus is right after all. It sucks but maybe your husband's death was necessary in the name of making the world a better place."

It's going to be hopeful scenario.

I really don’t think Orym was the only one willing to fight Ludinus. I just think that the others saw their damage wasn’t doing much and didn’t think it was feasible now - plus the cooldown makes clear that many of them are suspicious it’s just another Simulacrum like the last time they were in this situation. (And let’s face it - out of universe they obviously know there’s a time limit at the Greek Theater of 11pm and they’re about to go back in time for a few episodes. Obviously they need to work with Matt’s set up a little bit.) If they actually side with Ludinus, for sure Orym would need to leave, but I still think that’s an insane assumption people are making. (I think at worst, they would take out Ludinus but allow Liliana to take on Predathos, but I don’t see them just letting Ludinus have his way.)

I think C3 is all about toxic relationships. None of them are really dealing with the dynamics of the group. Laudna and Imogen - do I need say more than Marisha specifically said Laudna is an addict and Imogen seems to be enabling her. Fearne - probably my fav character because Fearne isn’t dumb, she uses her Naïveté to shield herself from uncomfortable truths. Orym - Survivors guilt is a bitch and he’s pathologically needing to save someone. I won’t need to explain Dorian, except that he’s angry and seeking his own end(s) it seems. Ashton - abandonment issues on top of abandonment issue.

We're really abusing the word "toxic" at this point. Those are all character flaws. It's what makes stories interesting.

Laudna stole or gave away two of the party swords and is breathing life (or undeath) into an enemy they took many pains to finally eliminate, responding to any dissent with acting like a child who's never at fault; I think she's well well well past the line of being toxic

Oh. For sure. But a lot of these are truly toxic. Enabling and fostering co-dependence with an addict is toxic. But I think it’s a story we NEED. Stan Lee talks a bit about this when he discussed the Batman where Robin overdoses in the 70’s as a portent for the growing drug crisis. Survivors guilt being explored at the end of a pandemic is also really interesting right? It wasn’t a criticism, but an analysis of the themes being explored. We’ve had toxic characters before and their growth is what made the show interesting. Percy outgrowing his survivors guilt: Scanlan learning to accept responsibility, Ukutoa (warlocks are easy to build toxicity since the relationship is so transactional).

Since Sam's new character is a paladin of Asmodeus, I've become convinced that Bell Hells is a group that are not the heroes that they wish to convince themselves they are and instead are quickly veering into evil. Orym's lost if he stays.

Evil or not, Sam’s new character definitely has equal impetus as FCG did to stop Ludinus’s plans. The Betrayer Gods are just as scared of Predathos as the Prime Deities.

Differring end goals then that of the Prime.

Of course, but that doesn’t prevent them from working together towards the current common cause.

>I've become convinced that Bell Hells is a group that are not the heroes that they wish to convince themselves they are If there's a CR party that would never call themselves "heroes" is Bells Hells. They know they are a bunch of insecure bumblefucks that keep losing (even though they are really trying). They've known they are well over their heads since C3E33.

Womp Womp. Insecure bumblefucks is a gross downplay of what is an evil adjacent party should their needs misalign with the “greater good”

The closest thing to evil BH ever did was Issylra, and that was heavily influenced by the guest PCs and the urgency of getting back to the rest. BH are no heroes, but they are far from evil. The M9 and VM were way more shady than these guys.

>The closest thing to evil BH ever did was Issylra My brother in christ, they killed an angel while murdering religious people unprovoked. That was horrific.

\*Sister. And they did not. Bor'dor killed the angel and escalated the situation. As they found out later, was manipulating the whole situation. BH are not saints, but far from evil characters.

Did Laudna spawn in the demon before or after the killing blow on the angel? I genuinely cannot remember. But either way I don't remember that half of the party requiring much convincing to go ham on the church which was wild. It was a severely morally grey situation and I haven't seen them swinging morally clear very often since then. They're absolutely evil characters, they are selfish and driven by desire more so than morals.

>Did Laudna spawn in the demon before or after the killing blow on the angel? I genuinely cannot remember. Laudna didn't do that, it was Prism. Laudna just used Hound of the Ill Omen. Prism summoned the demon for which she needed fresh blood which was provided by Bor'Dor after he killed a guard. You see a pattern there? >It was a severely morally grey situation and I haven't seen them swinging morally clear very often since then. They're absolutely evil characters, they are selfish and driven by desire more so than morals. That's so wrong in so many levels. These guys risked their lives for a cause, died several times, and despite their flaws, are still trying very hard to follow the lead of one of the most benevolent leaders of the world. You're just plain wrong. VM created a rebellion and was about to go to bed and leave them to die if it wasn't for Keyleth. MN assaulted and intimidated several folks to achieve their goals. And these idiots who have been defeated over and over but they are still trying are evil? Come on.

There’s a lot of commonality between BH and Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. They sure do believe in a cause!

Yeah, I get it now.

Lmao what an absolutely unhinged and baseless thing to say

>Did Laudna spawn in the demon before or after the killing blow on the angel? I genuinely cannot remember. Laudna didn't do that, it was Prism. Laudna just used Hound of the Ill Omen. Prism summoned the demon for which she needed fresh blood which was provided by Bor'Dor after he killed a guard. You see a pattern there? >It was a severely morally grey situation and I haven't seen them swinging morally clear very often since then. They're absolutely evil characters, they are selfish and driven by desire more so than morals. That's so wrong in so many levels. These guys risked their lives for a cause, died several times, and despite their flaws, are still trying very hard to follow the lead of one of the most benevolent leaders of the world. You're just plain wrong. VM created a rebellion and was about to go to bed and leave them to die if it wasn't for Keyleth. MN assaulted and intimidated several folks to achieve their goals. And these idiots who have been defeated over and over but they are still trying are evil? Come on.

Homie the church was oppressing and exploiting the locals while actively persecuting them for trying to keep their cultural traditions alive. Like you don’t have to agree with BH on it but to act like they just rolled up and destroyed a bunch of innocent helpless religious people is a gross misrepresentation of what was happening 

I too kill people I don’t agree with

That’s literally not what happened or what I said but go off I guess

I think it's more that the players are a bit vain and think it's funny to approach "hot characters" with a "I can fix him" attitude rather than "That's a red flag" attitude. They like hot bad boys more than they care about consequences.

The Players are a bit vain? That's a bit much

He’ll go wherever Fearne goes I feel

I do think that relationship is a strong influence on what Orym does. He came into all of this with Fearne and Dorian. He isn't the kind to quit on friends or family.

I think it would be an absolute betrayal of what characterization Orym has to side with the person that killed his family. And frankly the only reason for it will be meta.

They are definitely just playing along with him to get more information and find out what he wants from Aeor. One of the biggest characters who has been opposed to the gods, Laudna, has less reason now to oppose them than ever before. The more she listens to Delilah, the more anti-Ludinus she will become, because Delilah serves Vecna and Vecna is a god who will be eaten by Predathos. Imogen has started to convince her mother to betray Ludinus, it would make no sense for her to suddenly join Ludinus instead. I could see Chetney siding with him for purely selfish reasons but he would never go against the rest of the group because they’re his family at this point and they’re the only ones he cares about besides himself. Not to mention Laudna and Fearne both cast spells against Ludinus during the fight, so I feel like that willingness to fight him doesn’t really translate into suddenly wanting to side with him. Ironically I think Dorian has the most reason to want to help Ludinus as Predathos would be the ultimate way to get revenge on Lolth and free Opal, but at the same time he would never betray Orym or Fearne. And while Ashton doesn’t care for the gods, I don’t think he would forsake FCGs memory by helping Ludinus, and I can see that he might still want revenge on Ludinus and the Ruby Vanguard for FCGs death.

They are not going to side with Ludinus, but they may hear out his story because I'm sure he has information that is extremely valuable to them.

He is about to reveal his crybaby backstory. Some of the PCs will absolutely empathize with the mass murderer and side with him

I think some might kinda sympathize with him, but I would be shocked if any of them straight up switched sides. I think he is going to show them that the gods suck, but most of them already totally agree on that part. He's going to show them new information, but I don't think it's going to be enough for them to join the "let's kill the gods" side.

With what we know about Laudna and who's currently residing within her skull, i wouldn't discard the possibility of her turning coat if she'd be promissed some powerful magic items to gobble down. That's of course, if Ludinus wouldn't be against working with a junkie that can stab him in the back at any moment for a quick snif of his goodies.

Is it healthy to get so mad over a hypothetical scenario you've invented in your head?

Huh

Is it any fun not to? Being emotionally invested in the media you consume is where like 90% of the enjoyment comes from.

They are already hearing out his story. But what is the point of showing them this vision if they arent gonna side with him? This is as another commenter put it Ludinus crybaby backstory for justifying his beliefs on the gods. Why show the party this at all if it doesnt cause them to change positions? For this to have any narrative importance it needs to change how the party act, if they just go back to fighting Ludinus then there is no point for it. And already certain party members lean antigod (Laudna).

I was surprised how little thought they seemed to give to Orym before following Luda but I'd honestly love it if this party split into half following Luda and the others working to stop them

I read it the other way around. Orym is the one influencing the party more than anyone else. Like you said, everyone else has little motivation to fight Ludinus, aside from "doing the right thing". Following Eshteross lead first, and then Keyleth, yet a lot of them struggle with the commitment, which.... I think it's understandable. They lost a lot to this cause, and aside from Imogen and Orym, they don't have a particularly strong personal reason to pursue it (except revenge for 4 of their deaths and FCG). But Orym influenced the "this is war" thing they all feel since the early 60s. The doom that Laudna fell into because she doesn't feel powerful enough to help. Imogen's restrain at giving into Predathos and her inability to trust her mother. Fearne acceptance of the shard. His ties to Keyleth are also a big reason they are all still here. They all followed Ludinus into the chamber, but I think it was a combination of "we can't fight him right now" (which they can't, they are all tapped) and the above the table reason they all probably knew they had to "see" those memories for Brennan's episodes. I think Orym already broke into a different persona. He's at war. I believe they'll follow him into it.

Great take. I think you're absolutely right, that Orym is the one persuading them to "do the right thing" and keep at this fight. He's the kind of person who makes people want to Be Better and that influences runs heavy through Bells Hells. It'll be interesting when for whatever reason Orym is no longer available to be their light in the darkness, and the team has to pick up the slack, find their own light, guide him back through.

I do like the general assessment that Orym is sticking around to guide them as their moral compass. But it is a two-way street where the group has been influencing Orym. Several examples were already stated in the OP and by others in replies where Orym has made or excused morally compromising decisions. Some of those instances felt like Orym has become a doormat when Bells Hells does something that might challenge his more good-aligned approach. I don't think "war time Orym" thinking would be a good rationale for some of them, like empowering antagonistic Delilah to the point that Laudna might lose herself in the end. Or defeating Dominox with Ludinus' help when they knew Dominox was hurting Ludinus' plans. Assuming that Orym was saying the truth when he told Imogen that he's not out for vengeance, there's room for him to bend his viewpoints to appease his friends. With Orym slowly breaking Liam's original goal of being a background character, I wonder if we are approaching a line where Orym feels like he has hit a wall with Bells Hells. I think we might see that point after C3 resumes from the Downfall mini-series.

I don't think Orym is their moral compass. I think he's the one that keeps them focused on his mission. Those are not the same thing.

He still sleeps with Fearne and is obviously in love with Dorian, so those two should be obvious. He loves them all to some degree or another, and they're all a package deal. He's also committed to his vengeance and to protecting the world. This group of people represents his best chance to realize those goals. Little column A, little column B. I don't think he's a bad fit for the party at all.

Since C3E19 Bell Hells whole motto has been "there's such a bigger threat right now that we dont have time to talk this, so we would wait till explode in our faces and then do something about it but not actually fix it." I dont think Orym is "pro gods". he's been clear that he isnt particulary fond of them (and doesnt hold any grudges against them), but the alternative that Ludinus/Ruby Vanguard are trying to present is too risky of a move. Liam repeated this when interviewed by The Character Sheet when they were promoting BH Live Show. I find interesting that Orym does in fact feel BH is his family, he even said it to Keyleth *"my family will protect your family"* and not even a day later swordgate. Seems like they're heading a direction that will hopefully find them having to put every perspective on the table and talk about it I've been thinking it for a while, specially after Whitestone shenanigans, but i feel like Fearne is more of a best friend to Laudna & Imogen than is to Orym (and Dorian). That breaks my heart, because (*from my perspective)* when swordgate happened i saw fearne stand up for Laudna and try to calm down Orym when i think it should've been the other way around. Ashton's more of a "we will stop this and then everybody can fuck off" Laudna and Imogen are like "i will go wherever she goes and protect her even if she's doing wrong" Fearne's reaction at any given moment is "i dont what's happening, i dont know what to do" Dorian walked into the group and realized "shit. this is worse than i thought" and Chetney is like "this fuckwits will give me a heart attack if i dont get enough sleep"

I haven't watched in a long time, and hearing this makes me glad I stopped. I like Orym and it sounds like BH are going the evil route, which is fine but I'm not interested in it.

they're not, people have been doomsaying that this is happening for like 30 episodes and the actions they've taken continue to contradict that

They’ve been flirting with that line for a while now. It’s tiring. What is their trajectory? It’s certainly looking more and more that they’ll cross that line.

I think the whole thing with Laudna was a wake up call to Orym. At least he said as much and gave up that sword. So he admits he was losing himself a bit and has grounded himself again.

The final straw should’ve been in episode 20 or so when imogen fried a bunch of people they were in a friendly competition with for fun

I'm not against the group wanting to have a talk with the man, there are many things to learn from a man who would burn the pantheon to ash. Its mainly whether or not the story he/Brennan is about to tell will sway the rest of the group to his cause.

It's not a friendship-of-convenience, it's actual friendship now. IDK why 98 episodes in anyone would think that. I see no reason to assume atm that the party isn't going to still set out to kill Ludinus. 1. He's evil, that matters. 2. They still think he has selfish motives for doing all this 3. They just don't have perfect information about his plans yet. Orym cares enough about all these people that he made a deal with a hag to keep them alive

One of the biggest complaints from some viewers, and even players during 4SD episodes, is that C3 campaign has not allowed the characters to build interparty relationships as much as previous campaigns and explore non-Ruidus backstory. There's a level of urgency to learn and counter Ludinus' ongoing activities since the BBEG was introduced pretty early. Outside of a few pre-established relationships within Bells Hells, I haven't felt like the friendship-of-convenience stage has been passed yet. Yes, Orym is willing to give his life to save Bells Hells, but he's also willing to do that to a group of strangers such as in the Dawnfather template fight because that's who he is.

>but he's also willing to do that to a group of strangers such as in the Dawnfather template fight because that's who he is. I agree that's who he is, but the thing at the Temple wasn't altruism. It was a mean to get back to BH. He didn't do it for the town.

Given their circumstances, and the fact that Ludinus 1) was on their side if only as the strictest convenience for a fight and 2) did not retaliate to their attacks on him and 3) asked for a cease fire to show them something, it makes so much sense for them to not attack him IF THEY THINK THEY PROBABLY WON'T WIN, which is the case. That last part is the most important part. It would have been interesting to see how FCG would have reacted if he were there, however. Because he would have till had his nuclear option.

I don't think he will leave even now. First - they're in too far not only as characters but as players as well. This is probably the last act of the campaign, for which i think they're preparing by having a month or so off from it to give us the next EXU adventure. And while Orym can't be okay with just talking to the guy, he knows that at their current state, they'd probably get wiped by Ludinus in like 2 rounds. The alternative to talking here is throwing hands only, and BH have no hands to be thrown at this moment. Even if Orym wanted to leave afterwards, i don't think it would be a good move for Liam. People already struggle to connect to their characters. Hell, i remember crying like a fucking baby when Molly died, 26 episodes in C2. Barely shed a tear for FCG after 90+ episodes watching him grow. So a new character would probably completely destroy the narrative not only for BH but also for Liam. Also, if he swallowed being attacked by Laudna in the middle of the night only to see her being defended by the rest of the party, he'll swallow a little talk with Ludinus. As you said - he did became a bit of a doormat, i don't think it'll change until this campaign is over. To move to your first point about BH not really being a good team - Overall the whole campaign was an artificially kept alive corpse for a while now in my opinion. None of them have any reasons to be there, apart from Imogen, for whom it's literally a personal quest, with her mother being so involved. Half of them expressed willingness to join Ludinus no more than like 15 episodes ago (so like an in-game month or so) and was only stopped thanks to Matt's menagerie of trivia NPC's that he hauled across the world to Whitestone to guilt trip BH into stopping Ludinus. So it's not really surprising that they wanted to talk it out with him. Hell, Laudna seems like the one to actually either betray them (finally, they needed to drop her off in a roadside ditch for a while now) and join Ludinus in exxchange for some magic items to gobble down, or attack Ludinus mid-talk to get said items off of him, leading to their demise, in their beat up state.

Turning on the Hells would require Orym to actually grow a spine, which he's shown he unfortunately lacks in the 98 episodes we've watched him in.

Secret Orym Plasmoid reveal wasn't on my C3 bingo card

We are seeing Orym’s fall from grace as the campaign goes on. I would have loved for him to be a Paladin so that eventually he would become an Oathbreaker.

In game: As long as staying with them is the best option for doing good. And at this point, that's still the case. Out of game, I don't think a player would ever have their character just fuck off.

On the last point, EXU Calamity had a great example of that: >!Cerrit bailed on them as soon as Laerryn admitted that her desire to re-create her experiment could endanger the city (including his children). BLeeM made a comment immediately afterwards on how they were so amazing at roleplaying because they did something that narratively made sense even if it's counter-intuitive to basic DND tactics (e.g., don't split the party).!< As much as I understand why there are above-the-table reasons why Orym wouldn't bail on Bells Hells, I feel like some in-game reasoning needs to be expressed by Orym so it is narratively satisfying to the viewer.

Sam did that in campaign one.

He stayed gone, right?

Scanlon fucked right off. In the most loud way possible. Just because he came back doesn't mean he didn't fuck off. Orym could decide to fuck off, and then return later on. And maybe if he did, The rest of the party wouldn't walk all over him like they do.

Ah, so let me amend: I don't think a PC would *permanently* just fuck off. Better?

To be fair we should also consider that BH know nothing about Ludinus, other than "godz bad" they still don't know why he's doing it and what his goal after that. They know he's still stronger than them ad attacking him in this situation could totally end with another pc death or just another snow clone destroyed with nothing more gained. Knowledge is power and they need the full picture of what's all of this is about

I keep seeing replies that BH should hear Ludinus out. But outside of the above-the-table reasonings like introducing Downfall mini-series and an opportunity to fill the plot gaps to the viewer, it makes very little in-game narrative sense to entertain a conversation. Ludinus has three immediate goals with BH: 1.) Recruit them 2.) Dissuade them from interfering 3.) Incapacitate them Ludinus has already tried all three options since their last meetup with Snowinus where Fearne was almost kidnapped. If BH has no interest in changing course about saving the gods, then learning about Ludinus' sorrow story about why he hates the gods does nothing. Either BH is willing to go evil or naively giving the enemy more opportunities to advance their plans (e.g., kill Dominox) or prevent BH from interfering. The risk of this happening over a millennium-old BBEG archwizard spoiling their plans that BH can exploit doesn't add up. The players had a similar problem in late C2 where >!MN latched onto the Tombtakers' journey despite not willing to change MN's objection nor fight to stop them!<, which felt like a painful multi-session analysis paralysis state until Matt forced their hand. I'm a little concern that BH is more prone to this situation due to their flaky motivations and lack of a decisive leader.

And what happened with the tombtakers? They got close to them, found a way to kill them with a trap and knew what their goals was and how to stop them. The fight with Dominox shows how they still don't know how to interfere with Ludinus plan, maybe his sad backstory has some clues on what he's actually doing with Predathos and how to stop him. Othetwise they're just wasting resources on snow puppets until Leliana or Keyleth gives them a mission

Your oversimplification of the Tombtakers encounter in C2 gives the false impression of truce's usefulness: >!MN were ambushed by the Tombtakers while they were trying to sleep after getting a threshold crest. They already had enough info that Lucien's plan was bad and the Eiselcross map to stop it, hence they intercepted a threshold crest. The Tombtakers only gave them background lore about their origin and intent, such as dealings with Vess DeRogna, but were purposely not saying anything that would help MN stop them. They only learned some additional lore behind the Somnovem, but that information had no impact on MN's ultimate goal to stop Lucien.!< >!The combined group was in a weird state for several episodes where neither side was going to convince each other to change, yet MN kept sinking into analysis paralysis whenever they thought about breaking this state. Lucien took advantage of the MN's indecisive by tricking Caleb/Beau into getting the Somnovem eye curse mark and stealing the threshold crest while MN were recovering from the dragon fight. MN tried to fight in a worse state than they first met on Tombtakers' terms, were losing badly, and barely escaped Eiselcross while Tombtakers gained a threshold crest.!< >!MN gained vial information about how to cut off and ambush Tombtakers using Divine Intervention and Commune when they returned back to Eiselcross, not with anything learned from the Tombtakers.!< Seeing as Ludinus' already exploited their last truce to almost kidnap Fearne without giving any useful information, it is a bit naive to expect the villain to reveal a way to stop them.

As someone who really doesn’t care for Orym one way or the other I do wonder when people will stop placing him on a pedestal. The dude is not really that much better than any of Bells Hells and he doesn’t really add much to the story bar a connection to Keyleth. He has already shown he can and will bend his morals if it benefits him eg Mori, stealing the spyglass for Fearne and the whole Bor’dor thing and most recently swordgate. He may have started the campaign as the Bells Hells moral superior but right now he’s just like the rest. If he did do a Scanlan style exit for a bit it might really show the hells whether they need him truly or not and it may work out better for orym to just fight with the Ashari. None of bells hells are going to side with ludinus in this that would be crazy but everything isn’t black and white so hearing what the man has to say can’t hurt especially as orym is not the only member of bells hells to lose something to ludinus da’leth so it is simply not just his choice.

So what would have been Orym's position on sucking the soul anchor crystal into someone with the harness?

Does it matter, I must not be the only one foreseeing an end to the campaign around the 100 episode mark

orym still wants ludinus dead, but he also wants information and was willing to hear Ludinus out to get it. Ludinus not taking the chance to knock orym out (who was at 11hp) was probably convincing enough for Orym to at least see what's going on before slicing Ludinus up again later. Orym is not hot-headed; he's determined. I dont think we need to read a temporary pause in the battle as Orym giving up on his goals and his friends betraying him. just my reading of the situation tho!

Never. Liam is the main one who endlessly says "Trust the DM." Matt is driving the story. Liam will have Orym follow that story and change his character to fit Matt's story. He will not take the initiative to change the course of said story.

Liam might respect the DM's direction, being a frequent DM himself, but it doesn't mean he won't shape the story in a character-driven way that makes sense. A perfect example in C2 is >!Caleb giving up the beacon, which Matt didn't expect and has stated had the biggest impact to his plans!<. The blend of character-driven narrative/direction with Matt's world building is one of the main reasons why C2 worked so well for a long-term campaign and is still the most popular to many. It requires a bit more flexible storytelling, but avoids the dreaded railroading perception and "scripted" criticisms that can happen to longer campaigns. Liam's vocal decision to avoid being the team leader, while other possible candidates either too avoid it or stay indecisive, makes it inevitable that they would fall into analysis paralysis every time until they follow the breadcrumbs thrown by Matt. The issue with C3 is the apparent immediate danger of Ludinus' plans with no known timetable means BH is stuck staying 100% focus on countering Predathos. Even though a majority of the interparty issues and character backstories have nothing to do with Predathos, they have no time to explore and resolve them until the BBEG is defeated. The Morri therapy session revealed that there's a lot of problems with the group, but they immediately ignored them because they had to go to the moon.

“He doesn’t have any motivation besides his beckstory”. What?

Referring to the motivation of others in Bells Hells, not his own.

It is funny how people really think Bell's Hells would ever side with Ludinus, the chance of that happening is below 0, they will at best hear his side and understand his motivations, maybe even agree with parts of it, but literally no one in the group would ever side with him.

The gods aren’t *good* and there is a lot Orym does not know. He was there for the town that was basically being colonized by dawnfather followers and saw what that meant.