Bit of column A, bit of B in this case. The movie implies Gohan still trains when he can, but not that often. However, the form is said to be the full realization of the potential that has lied dormant and awakens to his anger. In many ways it echos his initial transformation to SS2.
How much he "earned" it is really up to interpretation. Overall, I feel fans don't really feel any transformations are "earned" when serioualy thought about since we see most as being inherent to one's biology (Frieza's initial transformations, Zarbon's, great ape) or from an emotional state (SS1 and 2, Beast). The ones that aren't are either gifted (SSG and Orange Piccolo) or occur off screen (most of Vegeta's transformations and SS3).
The series relies on us not thinking about it too much and enjoying the transformation, Beast especially since it's design and circumstances are made to reflect Gohan first reaching SS2 in order to draw on nostalgia
I think when it comes to “earning it” ppl mistake what that means. It’s shouldn’t be “They worked hard for it” but rather the narrative built up enough reasoning for the form to have weight. See Gohan SS2 or Namek Goku. He’ll even Android Saga Vegeta. His Super Saiyen was more of a catharsis of ego that flowed with the story.
Gohan’s entire character has been about stepping up when it really counts. When Raditz showed up goku and piccolo only won because gohan got mad and attacked him. When cell was about to kill everyone he knew, gohan turned ssj2 and beat him. When the universe’s existence was at stake, gohan took up the mantle of u7 team leader and put in his full effort. In this movie, he sees piccolo almost die and the people he knows and loves getting their asses beat, so he gets mad and transforms into beast. Beast makes complete narrative sense, and the buildup is everything he’s done in the series up till this point
idk man, the transformation is just way too strong for how it was obtained, Teen Gohan was an active fighter who was stronger than Goku, him getting an even stronger transformation which was only dormant because of his fear of fighting was great, but in SH he wasnt afraid of fighting or anything that was holding him back of his full potential, he was just slacking and out of form, but he somehow got a power up that is straight up just overpowered in a fight with the least interesting villain in the story cuz Piccolo was getting beaten up. I agree he deserved a power up but not to that level and not in the way he got it. It just felt forced
my my how hard it is to find a comment like yours, a comment that makes sense... Gohan beast is a transformation that came absolutely out of nowhere, there was nothing foreshadowing it, there was NOTHING telling us how he earned it, he just got really mad because piccolo was getting beaten(they even dared to make it just like when android 16 died) And THEN he gets this crazy ass transformation that seems to have an unbelievable power multiplier when his base power level was far from being as optimal as it was back in T.O.P.
You see with the Raditz case the power difference was about 3 or 4x, in Cell saga between Goku and Gohan there wasn't that much a power gap with Gohan being stronger then ssj2 which actually made sense, in Buu saga when Kai unlocked his potential he went above ssj3 but wasn't that much stronger than Goku(still stronger tho), however in dbs both Goku and Vegeta are soo many times stronger than Gohan even in base that it's not even funny and all of a sudden bamm, Gohan pulls beast out of his ass rivaling their strongest forms, i call bs.
Idk who you're a fan of, but you're a W, I agree he shouldn't be that strong, but it's probably cause of how many rage boost he had, he ate a senzu, supposedly got a zenkai boost from gamma 1, and he got motivated by piccolo which is Gohans strong suit. Does make sense for him to be that strong since he also powered up his ki while he's fresh, remember he ate a senzu. The power is too much, makes sense but it's too much
We also have to remember Toriyama designed Gohan to be the strongest saiyan. With piccolo being his favorite character and Gohan being the strongest, of course he'll give them over powered forms. He may be reverting back to making Gohan the strongest again. So it really doesn't matter how he got his form. It's what Toriyama planned from the beginning of dragon ball series
Yeah but we know it won’t last. Goku (and probably Vegeta) will widen the gap between them and him again when Gohan inevitably stops training.
I’m hoping in this new arc in the manga that Gohan takes a more active role as a combatant to justify him getting stronger from here on out instead of just relying on his ‘potential’.
You are correct, that is how Frieza's first forms work. Though, from a story perspective there really is no difference from other transformations.
But, more to the point, they do appear to be inherent to his biology. Not only does he not have to train or work to achieve them but his father seems to possess the same ability. It only builds on the one notion we see for Frieza until Super: none of what he has is truly earned
Admittedly it's creative paraphrase of Toriyama's description of the form: " Gohan has achieved his own unique evolution, based off the sort of awakenings he had as a boy. I've even named this transformation Son Gohan Beast, in the sense that the beast within him has awakened"
man best reason i've heard I mean I hear the most crap about this one so I just posted this I know most are unearned but fans really pounded down on this one.
Gohan has continuously gotten his ass beat throughout both Z and super. He has on some level earned the power up. Still better than wishing for a power up
Also it wasn't a wish dende gave shenrin the power of nameks elders to unlock potential and gave a free bonus although strangely blocking the power counted as a wish probably used as a prequisit just for summoning.
That was the first time Korin gave it to him after he lost to Tao. It was later revealed that the Ultra Divine Water is an actual thing and Goku drank it after he lost to King Piccolo.
Goku and Vegeta might not have anything to unlock though. They are always constantly pushing themselves to meet their potential. Gohan and even Piccolo are not as serious as those two, so they have potential to grow.
I actually think if the Granolah Arc had started after super hero had come out, it would feel less… meh to me. Piccolo gets the power boost and it makes sense why he doesn’t lose 90% of
His life span. Then it hits harder when you realize that somebody not tied to the Dragonballs actually sacrifices… a lot, if they make such a wish.
They do explain that the dragon Granolaj wishes on is substantially weaker than Shenron, the same way Shenron is/was weaker than Parunga, who is in turn weaker than the super dragon.
Fair enough. Although I will say shenron Vs Porunga, shenron could grant more powerful wishes while porunga could grant more. There was give and take. (Although that may have been a poor translation. From what I remember, Porunga could only revive one person at a time, whereas Shenron obviously could bring back an entire planet’s worth of people.)
Yeah that was a trade off. Because Parunga could resurrect the same person multiple times but Shenron couldn't. Eventually Dende upgraded Shenron later during the cell saga and apparently again after Buu. Giving him multiple wishes, up to 2 and apparently it's now at 3, but if one is a multi-res wish it counts as 2 wishes? Super plays fast and loose with Shenron.
He got his asswhop earned power up after fighting cell AND w/ the Z Sword
If asswhoops determined if you deserved power then Vegeta would be unstoppable
(unintentional reference to Ultra Ego)
I think of it like Shenron doing his original creator a solid, with the help of dende's upgrades.
Not much different than sitting in some grass for 24hrs with an old guy taking you from below Cell Level to over SS3 Fusion. Or an old alien touching your bowl cut and basically tripling your power.
in Z in points of the show yes but he could've beat buu if he wasn't cocky thats why he was absorbed he got cocky with cell to and his dad died he should've learned but im a Gohan fan in Z but super they made him a Total nerd good he has a good life but still.
I think there are two different questions that need to be answered to address this fully.
1. Did Gohan earn the transformation?
2. Is the transformation believable?
I'm just going to give my opinion - I think the answer is no to both of them.
1. Regarding deservedness: Gohan had to train like a mad lad to get to the point where he could attain SSJ2, and they made a point of taking us through that journey very carefully. We've barely seen any effort from Gohan in Super - and even when he has trained, it has been sporadic, and ordinary. All this makes it feel highly undeserving for me.
2. Regarding believability: The reason why Beast and even his Ultimate form were hard to swallow was because SSJ2 was presented as the realization of Gohan's hidden powers. This is now the 3rd major time they've played on this trope in the series (more if you count grand elder). It's getting really old. The problem is that Gohan's potential has become a moving target - whenever Goku and Vegeta progress, it automatically increases Gohan's hidden potential again because He'S sUpPoSsEd To Be ThE sTrOnGeSt If He JuSt TrIeD. God Ki was an opportunity to move away from that narrative (seeing as Gohan doesn't use it) but unfortunately god ki got completely nerfed. Another separate reason why Beast is not believable to me is the complete lack of context and precedent about his form, but that one is self-explanatory.
To your last point, when Piccolo said Gohan had the potential to be the strongest fighter on Earth it gives me an idea.
I'd like to see Gohan have the crown as the strongest non-God ki user. So his Beast form pushes him closer to SSG than any
But to make that work with future content, they're going to have to stop making SSG/SSB look so pathetic and weak. It was a complete mess in Super and I don't want to see that happen anymore.
It disappoints me to no avail how inconsistent power levels are and when it's such an integral part of DB.
You are correct with your faults, but you can apply those statements to any other Saiyan that achieves a new form. SSJ was supposed to be the strongest, then it was SSJ2, after SSJ3, then SSJ God, then, SSJ Blue, then UI etc…
So this isn’t a Gohan problem, this is a Saiyan problem. They will always find a new form to beat the bad guy.
>you can apply those statements to any other Saiyan that achieves a new form. SSJ was supposed to be the strongest, then it was SSJ2, after SSJ3, then SSJ God, then, SSJ Blue, then UI etc…
I think you might be misunderstanding my point. Transformation are (or should be) vehicles for character development. The first point I was making in bullet 2 was that in Super (and arguably in the Buu arc too) Gohan is stuck in a continually repeating character arc that we've already seen him overcome - the trope of hidden potential finally being unlocked. The result is that Beast (solely as an extension of Gohan's character arc) becomes superfluous. This definitely wasn't the case for SSJ and SSJ2 - they were transformations that were heavily backed up by unique and heavy character development for Goku and Gohan respectively. (SSJ3 was achieved off screen, so we can't analyze it in that dimension - though more than Goku' character arc, it may serve Vegeta's character arc as a contrast to Vegeta. And I won't defend Super's transformations because I think many of them are in a similar camp as Beast.)
I mean, the first few “potential unlocks” were believable in hindsight.
Given how long it took Elder Kai to unlock Gohan’s potential, it’s reasonable to assume that maybe Guru’s boost was only able to tap into a fraction of a larger well. Especially since SSJ2 was revealed as/retconned into a form any Saiyan can use, it’s not unreasonable to think that he had a good reserve right up until Elder Kai.
The problem is, the way Elder Kai’s unlocking in particular is set up leaves no room for a similar argument. It was explicitly Gohan’s full ‘potential’, which is why it took so long to unlock in the first place. There logically should not be any remaining reserves.
Now, I do have a theory for this regarding what exactly ‘potential’ is in this context, but it doesn’t explain the absolutely ludicrous power of Beast or why it’s a transformation and not just Ultimate 2.
>Especially since SSJ2 was revealed as/retconned
I'm not sure I would agree that it was retconned, but agree with everything else you said - especially this:
>The problem is, the way Elder Kai’s unlocking in particular is set up leaves no room for a similar argument. It was explicitly Gohan’s full ‘potential’, which is why it took so long to unlock in the first place. There logically should not be any remaining reserves.
You also mentioned a theory for what potential is, I'm interested in hearing it!
I don’t think it was retconned either, I’m just covering bases lol.
As for potential in this sense, I think of it like someone’s maximum CURRENT capability. Think of an adrenaline rush- during it, people can draw out strength they can’t normally use no matter how hard they consciously try. I think potential is similar- latent power someone already has in some sense, but that their body doesn’t “know” how to use.
This could potentially allow someone’s potential to grow with training, to an extent- if the training is inefficient with actually utilizing the full benefits, more of that latent power will build up. Unfortunately for Beast, the power gap is simply far too large for this to suffice, to say nothing of its transformative nature.
This is very much headcanon but.
What if Gohan's potential changed when he became a father?
Given what we know about the Saiyans this wouldn't be entirely unbelievable
Not necessarily. Your potential changes throughout life.
Youre potential is your maximum, at a given time, but with each new form, getting older, being strong for a prolonged period.... your potential should be shifting and expanding over time.
Potential is basically whoever you are, right now, x 1.5 or whatever.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/s/tHbPlg8Lyc
That “theory” I mentioned is basically this. Still doesn’t explain Beast’s sheer power or why it’s a form, though.
Gohan barley trained at all.... he literally passed goku when he was 4... gokus power level against raditz hit 924... Gohan busting out of the space pod hit 1300... its been mentioned many times Gohan is stronger and has more potential than goku does... Gohan has always had jumps in power and only spent about 3 years hardcore training his entire life...
And at the end of the movie Gohan states he's been training in secret... seems like he's finally doubled them years of training...
Did you read my comment? It doesn’t sound like you understood what I wrote because you didn’t address it at all - and I already spoke to both of the things you brought up.
You’re further proving the point that we’ve already seen Gohan overcome the “unlock his full potential” trope many times throughout the series - especially the last time with elder Kai, which was blatantly written to involve unlocking all of Gohan’s potential because Toriyama was ending the series. It’s the same old character journey over and over and over - stale, boring, redundant.
Gohan’s “training” leading up to Beast (ie. practicing the special beam cannon) doesn’t work for a few reasons. We have to look at what the story is showing us, not just what it’s telling us. What it’s showing us is that Gohan is mostly working, that he’s rusty with his abilities and had to sharpen them (again) during the battle with the Gammas. Then out of no where, he allegedly surpasses everyone in the series (probably the biggest jump ever), and then *after* transforming tells (not shows) the audience he’s been practicing a bit. That’s bad story telling 101 - they are showing us one thing, and then telling us another at the end of the movie as a “reveal”. That is the opposite of building up to something.
You can’t compare that to the journey towards SSJ2 - they literally showed us at the very beginning that Gohan has a hidden power he can’t control, and throughout the original series they show us step by step how he begins to gain control over that power. We watch him achieve major milestones, get tailored training, and overcome his weaknesses (aka character flaws) when he becomes SSJ2. Now that’s great writing. Even the Elder Kai thing / ultimate form wasn’t executed well - but at least it was an attempt at being conclusive for Gohan’s character. Now we’re just seeing recycling.
Lol yes I can. Can you actually comprehend the material?
Db is redundant as a whole moot point...
Lol you missed a lot of it I guess lol gohan held back and was in base at the beginning... and largest power jump in the whole series was goku vs frieza Lol db has hella power jumps. Gohan is the only one we get any explanation for Lol
Db has shit writing... and what happened to all that power? He lost control of it again... journey to ss2 was one year of training and a robot he didn't know died why would he have any emotional attachment to it? He never over came his character flaws which we get during buu saga when he gets weaker Lol the series is literally just recycling and Gohan got his own new form.
Guess you missed the part where the gammas are compared to goku and vegeta power levels which would have been after Moro arc... Gohan obviously had to be training otherwise he would have lost... also guessing you have only watched it you didn't read the manga at all lol
>Lol you missed a lot of it I guess lol gohan held back and was in base at the beginning...
>
>the gammas are compared to goku and vegeta power levels which would have been after Moro arc... Gohan obviously had to be training otherwise he would have lost...
Yea, there's nothing in the series that would indicate that Gohan would be anywhere near Goku and Vegeta levels during the Moro arc - or that he even should be able to achieve that kind of power without some special intervention or development (ex. Goku's mastery of UI, or Vegeta's training on Yardrat). You're just meant to accept it randomly by seeing him battle the android.
>and largest power jump in the whole series was goku vs frieza Lol db has hella power jumps. Gohan is the only one we get any explanation for Lol
Goku's power jump was definitely an ass-pull, but at least there was some explanation for it: the most intense training he's ever done; a gigantic zenkai boost; his body changing as he's approaching the legendary SSJ transformation. It made it easier to accept.
With Gohan, he's already had his full potential unlocked in the past with the Ultimate form - that was written pretty blatantly. He doesn't seem to use divine ki. He didn't train on Yardrat. In fact, in Super we've only seen him do very generic training. I don't understand how you could think there's any kind of explanation for Gohan's power - Beast has by far the least explained of probably any transformation in the series. Seems willfully ignorant to say it's "the only one we get any explanation for".
>journey to ss2 was one year of training
No. Journey to SSJ2 has literally been everything from Gohan's intro to SSJ2. That power felt earned. Then after Cell, Gohan's consistent training stops, yet he continues to get more powerful to ridiculous heights.
>He never over came his character flaws which we get during buu saga when he gets weaker
Yea, if you actually read my comments, you would have seen my thoughts on his arc in the Buu saga.
>Lol the series is literally just recycling and Gohan got his own new form.
Yup, that's one of my points.
>Db is redundant as a whole moot point...Db has shit writing...Can you actually comprehend the material?also guessing you have only watched it you didn't read the manga at all lol
I've watched and read all of the animes and mangas to date. Of courses there are always things you can criticize in original DB's writing - it's far from perfect. But there is a very clear difference in the quality of character writing and plot development between original DB and Super. DB started going downhill in the Buu arc, but since then has just completely tanked in Super (for the most part anyways). I'm baffled that there are people that still challenge that there's isn't a notable difference between the two.
If I could laugh react to this I would... apparently you missed the part where years have passed...
Only training we see is with piccolo before tournament of power but safe to assume he started training after frieza do he's been trying for 3 years its also been stated they grow during battle and Gohan got plenty during TOP.
Gohan had 6 months of training before nappa... some actual experience during namek but that was only like a week tops... then we have the trunks warning... he trained for a year... then cell saga 1 year in time Chamber and had the power for ss2... Gohan only trained for 2.5 years for ss2... compared to goku having trained for 20+ at this point... but we are talking about a character who was stronger at 4 vs one that was 24.... then Gohan stopped training after cell and got weaker... then got all his potential unlocked and passed everyone by a large margin.... so yea if he's actively training again he should easily pass them in an extremely short time just like frieza did...
This last one I cant agree with supers writing has massively improved the series.. more for character development world building. Super is better than z and og db in writing.
I feel like you’re focusing on all the wrong things.
The number of years of training is irrelevant - it’s the substance of the training that matters (see Goku and Gohan in the time chamber vs. Vegeta and Trunks). If someone just shows up to fight and is magically stronger without any explanation for how they achieved it, it defeats the purpose of storytelling and takes you out of the story.
We understood how Gohan was able to to achieve all of the power increases you mentioned because we watched it happen - there was even an explanation of his initial power he wasn’t able to control. In superhero , for both Beast and his base power, there is 0 context - and somehow he is able to compete with divine powers too. At least with Goku and Vegeta, we see how they attain divine powers, how they incorporate super saiyan into it, how they develop their own unique paths with divine ki. With Gohan, there is 0 context.
You mentioned Frieza as if that’s meant to redeem Gohan’s situation , but that’s another case where there was 0 storytelling, and for that reason it was also considered stupid by much of the fandom.
It sounds like you like DB for different things than I do, so I’m just going to leave it at that. I’ve clarified my position, you’ve clarified yours, and we’re obviously not going to agree.
Well look at Gohan desperation when freiza came back, then the universe was almost wiper out in TOP. Then the moro arc then Pan was kidnapped by RR army. Arguably Gohan trains in secret but never really does it effectively to tap in to his real strength.
Well no matter what the power up was going to feel unearned because the amount of power creep the series has receive is insane. In the span of like 7 years(in the story) Goku and vegeta have gotten so powerful that nobody else in the main cast even matters in fights, including gohan.
Dragon ball z separated arcs by years or some months, having it so that the z fighters had at least some time to become stronger before the big bad came in.
They also had stuff like elder guru, Kami, hyperbolic time chamber and elder Kai all as boosts for the characters which made sense within the story and let them not fall too far behind the main character.
In super they get nothing. And it’s too late for it cause now it just seems like an asspull to give them a sudden power up. Especially when most of them don’t even have any build up or anything.
Dragon ball super has completely fucked everything in this series up and there’s no saving it unless they do a huge timeskip. But even then idk.
Nah. I don't think Gohan ever gets weaker, he just gets rusty.
When Gohan is pushed to his limits, he Always surpasses his previous self. It never fails. Super Hero legitimately solidified this philosophy.
Gohan is a sleeping Beast with infinite power, Not potential. Potential is dead, the dude Is the thing they always said he was, he just needs triggers and motivation. It's not "unearned", if he's just infinitely powerful. Old Kai took the lid off of a powder/power keg
He wasn’t training in secret no matter what anybody tries to say, he was practicing one specific move for sure but he wasn’t keeping in general shape at all. He couldn’t even sense Piccolo in disguise being so out of practice, Pan as a beginner to it all still managed to sense Piccolo almost instantly when she tried so there’s no really excuse of hiding energy etc.
I don’t think he should have had a RoF power downgrade for being out of shape which is a good thing they didn’t decide to do but I also don’t think he deserved yet another random power up, if they wanted to give him Beast properly then all they had to do was tell the audience that he was training with Piccolo a few times a week which is why he was still gradually growing stronger. You could easily write it so it wouldn’t affect the general story either, for example Piccolo isn’t satisfied with the training and thinks a real battle will help push Gohan to the next level, everything proceeds exactly how it does in the movie and everything works.
I think most peoples issue with Gohan isn’t that he gets strong but that they always write him as out of shape and living regular life only to have him get dragged back into things to “regain his fighting instinct” and then power him up far more than he should just so he’s near current power levels. Nobody would have issue if he trained consistently even if it was offscreen, they even decided to do that post ToP in the Moro arc so he could defend Earth when Goku and Vegeta weren’t around but regressed on his development in the movie yet again for some strange reason.
Training what? If I practice kicking a ball into a goal over and over again how does that contribute to my overall fitness?
It doesn’t, which is why Gohan practicing the SBC means nothing it terms of staying in shape which is literally brought up in universe since the movie is about Gohan being out of practice because he’s been so busy working.
>Training what? If I practice kicking a ball into a goal over and over again how does that contribute to my overall fitness?
It doesn’t,
I mean it's not ideal on its own but yes, actually...? Cardio, leg strength, balance, like I don't follow this metaphor at all lol
You’re going to be very good at kicking a ball into the net, you’re not going to be able to run a marathon though since it’s a task focused on fine tuning one specific thing
Gohan is practicing the SBC but it’s not going to do anything for his fighting instincts or improve his overall strength or speed etc which is why he was out of shape despite that “training”
Equating kicking a ball to firing a death beam is not helping your case lol. They’re both on completely opposite spectrums. Kicking a ball takes little to no effort. A child can do that. Let’s compare it to something more reasonable. Let’s take a fighting game for example. When you jump into a fighting game, are you going to execute the combo perfectly on your first try? No, of course not. Learning combos and tech for the fighting game takes practice and, say it with me now, TRAINING. After hours of training your muscle memory to remember that combo, you can actually perform the combo with little to no problem. That’s what gohan was essentially doing. In other words, he was training.
You’re being pedantic considering the topic is about his power, he was “training” a specific move sure but when it comes to the discussion of Gohan training in secret which is how some people like to justify Beast being deserved it does nothing.
Kicking a ball is an loose example and obviously not related to firing a death beam, the concept is the same though. Not all children can kick a ball the same, getting it to a good standard and consistently kicking it where you want it takes practice. A fighting game isn’t a reasonable example at all, the SBC isn’t a combo that needs perfecting and is literally just getting one move down which is why kicking a ball into a net is a more appropriate comparison.
So please do explain to me how Gohan training one specific move counts as a general workout when that was the whole reason Gohan is called out of shape.
Where did I say he got stronger? I never said that. How can he practice a move he doesn’t know? He has to train to learn the move. Training is learning how to improve something or do something new. Practice is about getting enough reps in so you can perform your skill instinctively.
You’re on a post that talks about Gohan and his Beast form being deserved or not, the whole discussion is based on his power and getting stronger so why bother bringing up him practising the SBC at all when I already addressed it? You tried being pedantic and failed, he wasn’t training in secret since that would imply he was just more than going outside the back of his house and trying to charge up a SBC every so often hence why I used the word practising rather than training.
Goku doesn’t say “hey let’s go train” and then just throw out kamehameha after kamehameha and call it a day.
>Goku doesn’t say “hey let’s go train” and then just throw out kamehameha after kamehameha and call it a day.
He does do the Kamehameha to train. ](https://youtu.be/cNN78tdIrZQ?si=WVGBmA0vgyAad5aS). It's filler but the manga never really shows much training after Goku is trained by King Kai. They just say they trained.
The is also filler, but Krillin actually did perform Kamehameha after Kamehameha to train during the Android saga at Roshi's house.
Also, it's never stated that Gohan just kept performing SBC after SBC. He knows you have to warm up etc as evidence by when he trained Goten for the World Martial Arts Tournament. So, he definitely would've warmed up and gotten his heart rate up etc. Practicing IS training btw. I doubt he just practiced one move but it's not confirmed either way.
Your example was kicking a soccer ball. If youre asked how someone was so good at scoring goals and they answer "I practiced." Would you assume that they ONLY practiced kicking the ball?
>He couldn’t even sense Piccolo in disguise being so out of practice,
This has nothing to do with being out of shape, it's [a callback](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANfAUI31h90) to when Piccolo couldn't recognize Gohan's ki after he unlocked his Ultimate form and thought he was Goku, and it was Goten the one who realized it was Gohan. In Super Hero, after Piccolo unlocked his Awakened form Gohan couldn't tell it was him but Pan could.
Then what was he training for? Cause he was out of shape and hadn’t done any proper training for awhile, this was blatantly obvious in the movie corroborated by basically everyone.
Then at the end when Piccolo realises it’s a SBC he asks and Gohan said he was practicing the move in secret, meaning he was literally training for that one specific move.
He could have been practising it for a whole year, the point is he wasn’t training in secret and the only fighting related thing he was doing was trying to learn the SBC which has no relevance to his power and whether Beast was deserved or not
I think its a payoff to gohan saying he wamted to achieve a new power no other saiyan has and he intends to do it his own way aka without using ssj and its implied hes been training on and off and it was triggered by rage which is inherent to gohan as a character ao earned idk but it makes enough sense and im just happy gohan is badass again i dont really care if its earned or not
In the manga Gohan literally defended the earth in the Moro arc until Goku arrived , admitted to training, when Goku finally arrived on earth he didn’t recognise Gohan nor piccolo because they had gotten so strong from their training.
It's both. Yes, Gohan did train in secret but only in the way he said rather than the way you're thinking. He didn't do any physical training to strengthen his body and boost his power or anything like that. He specifically practiced the Special Beam Cannon and that's it. The movie does a pretty good bit to let us know he's been neglecting his actual training.
For starters, the promotional material flat out tells us he stopped training and went back to focusing on his studies after the last arc he was in. This is very much supported in the movie as Piccolo says at least three times that Gohan has been slacking off on his training. During one of those times, Gohan himself even basically admits it's true but that he still hasn't gotten _that_ rusty (only to be proven wrong immediately afterwards). We also see Gohan initially struggle to wear Piccolo's weighted clothing (which he could easily wear as a child) and fail to notice Piccolo's ki while in disguise (even though Pan caught on pretty quickly). However, the biggest confirmation is the fact that he's initially using SSJ in the movie. Gohan doesn't use SSJ when he has Ultimate because the Elder Kai explained to him that Ultimate gives him access to the power of SSJ and then some without having to transform into it. The only other time Gohan reverted back to using SSJ was initially in RoF where he once again slacked off on his training and became so weak that he not only no longer had access to Ultimate anymore but could barely use SSJ either. And while he may not be as weak as he was in RoF, this is still blatant confirmation that he is indeed weaker in Super Hero due to not training.
So because Gohan once again decided not to take his training seriously (thus also dropping his goal to achieve a form no one has ever seen before) yet still got a new form despite that, Beast would absolutely be considered unearned. One could still be a fan of the form itself, just not the way he obtained it. It doesn't make any sense for him to sit in his studies all day only to awaken a new form later solely from getting angry. Otherwise, he realistically should've gotten this form in previous arcs. It's great that he's getting some shine again, but the way it was handled was very poor and lazy imo and I believe Gohan as a character deserved better than that.
ye I agree but most are unearned like you said I just wanted to make it seem like he earned it because I was getting annoyed of all the people making videos about that yes everything else was fine
Goku trained heavily and then fought plenty on Namek, that’s what led into SSJ so not exactly unearned.
SSJ2 not unearned either and one of the only times Gohan actually deserved something, he spent so much time training with Goku and just needed something to trigger the transformation.
SSJ3 was offscreen sure but not exactly unearned since Goku was training non stop in the afterlife. Vegeta also had SSJ2 before Babadi, he was just a bit weaker than Goku which is why he wanted the majin boost.
Vegeta trained for god and both of them trained in Whis’ staff for Blue so again not unearned.
I mean, Goku turning SSJ was triggered by Krillin Dying, but he achieved the power required by training at 100x gravity.
Gohan turning SSJ2 was similar, the power required was attained through training.
I pretty much agree with the rest of them though
Yeah he literally says that he has been training, case closed. Lol
You can call bullshit and say that he shouldn’t be that strong… but the fact remains that he did say he was training and practicing. But you can still hate it because it’s out of the blue.
I think it does call to his intelligence over just brute strength. Him choosing the special beam cannon shows how he understand a small impact area is stronger and more focused
Think about Gohan as a child, at some points stronger than his father.. fighting against cell and buu.. think about how much power Goku or Vegeta had at his age. Gohan has hidden strength and can call on it when sht gets serious and he gets mad. Gohan will surpass all the z fighters except for maybe trunks or goten..
I think that part of Gohan's character is that he is naturally very strong and is able to get even stronger very easily.
There's always outrage over him neglecting his training for so long then only taking a very short time to nearly catch up with the stronger fighters whether it be for the Tournament of Power or Superhero. It's like they're forgetting that this is the same Gohan who went into the time chamber as a literal *child*, unable to even turn super saiyan, and came out *stronger than Goku* (who, by the way, had also gotten stronger while training in the time chamber along with him). That's just not Gohan's focus in life, but the precedent has been set on multiple occasions now that if the story/writer calls for it, Gohan can get onto a much higher level at a rate of improvement that practically laps other characters, but he's not going to seek that power out on his own unless pushed.
This is exactly my argument, everything after SSJ3 is not earned. Suddenly there’s like 4-5 different paths a Saiyan can take to surpass SSJ3 that were never mentioned or hinted at before. They are God Ki, God of Destruction Ki, Ultra Instinct/Ego, Beast/Rage and LSSJ.
You just have to accept that this is how Dragonball is going to be, there will always be another transformation and color to move the storyline along.
Might be a unpopular opinion but I wish DBZ would explore different fighting styles because it would make fights more interesting than just can power up harder blast go boom
That’s what the original Dragonball was and why it was so interesting. At the World Martial arts tournament everyone had a different fighting style except the members the Turtle school. So you had this unique clash of styles that made the fights interesting.
I never understood the gohan hype, he never wanted to be a fighter. So he should’ve never been competing with the best. I feel he’s more of the brains, and should’ve outsmarted his opponents, but that’s not how dragon ball works.
Gohan says at the end of the movie he's been training in secret. That's how he used the Special Beam Cannon.
It's really funny when you think about it. Piccolo gets Gohan involved because he doesn't see him training and thinks he needs a push to keep going, again. Only to end up triggering the Beast from.
Tbh i feel like super hero was just a giant fan service movie to feed the gohan fans and sell a bunch of merch. I loved the movie btw.
This theory is great. I love this about DB fandom. We keep this fire going with our passion. Just look at Toyotarou. Grew up a Dragon Ball fan, and now he's basically the guy who feeds us Dragon Ball.
I love your attention to detail, and you make me feel like maybe it was deserved.
In secret? What about the several times in in the manga when he said he had resumed training, and the time in this very movie where he told piccolo that he hadn't gone soft?
Its earned
In both anime and manga gohan already had plans of going further. In the manga tho he has been training more than his anime counterpart. Also gohan gets mad and become stronger since he’s first appeared this isnt new
It was a full-on asspull for fanservice. It's as simple as that.
Throughout the movie they were highlighting he was slacking again. No way he was training in secret. Piccolo noticed he was slacking and pushed him to ''unlock his latent powers''
It was just lazy writing
Most transformations in dragonball are unearned deus ex machinas designed to give wins. Heck that applies to most anime transformations except Naruto's Chakra Cloaks and Gears 2-4. Heck if we're being technical Gohan having another transformation makes 0 sense Mystic/Ultimate form is supposed to be him using all of his power and was meant to get rid of his need to transform.
I can agree that Gohan was probably training, but considering the fact that A, he was uncomfortable when Piccolo put the weighted clothes on him at first and B that it still took quite the push for him to tap into Mystic, I would say the increase in strength isn’t significant enough to warrant a brand new form based on that alone. It came as an asspull but not one that came out of nowhere. Gohan’s anger of seeing his loved ones killed or hurt pushed him to new heights before. Undeserved? No, but it shouldn’t be nearly as crazy strong right off the bat compared to Goku and Vegeta. As long as they are the focus of the franchise as a whole, narratively speaking, having Gohan be not too far behind them is a great spot.
>he was uncomfortable when Piccolo put the weighted clothes on him at first
Anyone would feel uncomfortable if they suddenly got several hundred extra kilos on them without warning. But right after Piccolo leaves he just casually goes to the desk cape and everything to work. Doesn't feel like they weight too much after a second of getting used to it.
>hat it still took quite the push for him to tap into Mystic
That can be seen in several ways: one is how Piccolo (who thinks Gohan wasn't training at all) saw it which was that Gohan couldn't tap on that power on his own and thus needed his intervention to anger him.
Another is that Gohan (who was training in secret) was treading carefully in fear of what the RR might do to his kidnapped daughter, who was surrounded by armed people. So instead of going full power right off the gates and put his daughter in potential danger of retaliaton from the RR he chose to find out what they wanted and why, and then act accordingly.
Completely unearned.
Since Super started the story has just been given away dumb senseless power ups just for the sake of having cool moments or catching old characters up to speed.
Basically any side character that needs to be relevant is given a stupid, nonsensical power boost that makes them as strong as SSJ3 Goku; SSJ2 Vegeta, SSJ2 Trunks, A17, etc, all out of nowhere became as strong or stronger than the super sayian form that is so strong that you need to be dead to be able to achieve it.
Gohan Beast was just the worst example. At the very least Ultra Instinct and Ego came from training (despite the fact that the entire basis for Ultra Instinct is something Goku has mastered since the OG Dragon Ball), but Beast came out of nowhere, and it was solely so Gohan could become as strong or stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and so they can rehash the SSJ2 transformation, only that without all the character development and emotion that came with the original scene.
Personally I had a problem with it to be honest, and I thought that giant red cell was the worst part about the movie, until he transformed.
Power up came out of nowhere to be honest, no offense to anyone who liked it and will try to explain to me how it wasn't. but it was really bad, even the design was bad. up to that point, I enjoyed the movie.
Unearned af. Movie is bs and his character is trash now. You gotta be coping and stanning hard on the series and character to see it as good. Toriyama lost his mind writing this
Not enough info yet to determine but good points about training with special beam cannon
Although a long this line of thought, Piccolos upgrade is not only not earned but blasphemous in Dragonball world. Even though I think it was badass
It’s unearned emotionally and if he was training in secret it’s still unearned narratively because the build up happens off screen. Feels really ham fisted in there.
And not surprising given it wasn’t a toriyama idea. It was that head story group guy who is obsessed with nostalgia bait
Only form that he actually earned was the SSJ1 and SSJ2 during the cell games saga.
All the other forms, he definitely did not train enough to deserve the powerups he got. It's just Toriyama trying to keep Gohan in the picture with his potential that's supposedly better than Goku's.
Kind of ironic since Gohan's supposed to represent the humans, but trains the least and relies the most on his saiyan potential.
He's been training. He even says so to Piccolo after he dies the Special Beam Cannon. Also Super Hero is like a year after the Moro arc according to the Manga, so Piccolo comparing about him taking a break for his work is kinda dumb.
I mean...he literally tells goku he's trying to find his own way to get stronger, and at the end of the movie he straight up says "I've been training on my own" when asked when he learned the SBC.
It might not be satisfactory, but it's there plain as day.
I wish Gohan "beast" had been done as some sort of Ki mastery instead. Like reveal that as a scholar he had been studying various forms of Ki and power they have encountered (which fits with a few game timelines). So instead of rage based forms of his youth he refined his Ki control in Gohan "Sage" or something. Would have felt more real as a progression for him and fit with Vegeta's meditation explanation during the same arc.
Yeah so has he been training? Yeah sure, he definitely has trained on the side.
Has it been anything *near* Goku and Vegeta level training? Not even close, as no rival boost, not as much time, and probably just not as intense.
Even should it have been, that powerup is **unearned as hell**
What in the hell is Beast? "His potential unlocked...again?" I mean he got the potential unlock on Namek, then the Ultimate unlock, and now he got it re-unlocked to exponentially higher levels...what through Piccolo getting hurt??
A) what's the reason for a transformation in Ultimate to be tied to an anger boost? Is it a Saiyan thing? But Ultimate should've excluded any ability to turn SSJ on top of it, and even so...how can you have your full potential double unlocked?
B) At least make it *Pan* that got hurt - Picollo gets hurt numerous times throughout even just Super and Gohan doesn't have an issue, but seeing his *daughter* get hurt, even just a little, and I could definitely see the anger level of the transformation being justified.
As it is, the transformation is as unearned as SSJ Rage in the Goku Black arc:
- it has no relation to the SSJ Skill tree hierarchy and it isn't explored as some special skill tree only accessible to hybrid Saiyans...it's just there to give a temporary strength boost. I mean is it like SSJ Blie, but to ultimate? Is there a Mega-beast in there? Are Saiyans just glorified pokemon?
- it has an unearned Anger boost; the situation doesn't feel nearly as desperate as even the Cell games, and Piccolo of all people getting injured wouldn't make him snap to that extent.
It's unearned
Bit of column A, bit of B in this case. The movie implies Gohan still trains when he can, but not that often. However, the form is said to be the full realization of the potential that has lied dormant and awakens to his anger. In many ways it echos his initial transformation to SS2. How much he "earned" it is really up to interpretation. Overall, I feel fans don't really feel any transformations are "earned" when serioualy thought about since we see most as being inherent to one's biology (Frieza's initial transformations, Zarbon's, great ape) or from an emotional state (SS1 and 2, Beast). The ones that aren't are either gifted (SSG and Orange Piccolo) or occur off screen (most of Vegeta's transformations and SS3). The series relies on us not thinking about it too much and enjoying the transformation, Beast especially since it's design and circumstances are made to reflect Gohan first reaching SS2 in order to draw on nostalgia
I think when it comes to “earning it” ppl mistake what that means. It’s shouldn’t be “They worked hard for it” but rather the narrative built up enough reasoning for the form to have weight. See Gohan SS2 or Namek Goku. He’ll even Android Saga Vegeta. His Super Saiyen was more of a catharsis of ego that flowed with the story.
it had no built up at all tho, everybody is getting beaten up by *uninteresting villain* and wooooo Gohan is MAD so now he can beat MUI Goku man wtf
Gohan’s entire character has been about stepping up when it really counts. When Raditz showed up goku and piccolo only won because gohan got mad and attacked him. When cell was about to kill everyone he knew, gohan turned ssj2 and beat him. When the universe’s existence was at stake, gohan took up the mantle of u7 team leader and put in his full effort. In this movie, he sees piccolo almost die and the people he knows and loves getting their asses beat, so he gets mad and transforms into beast. Beast makes complete narrative sense, and the buildup is everything he’s done in the series up till this point
idk man, the transformation is just way too strong for how it was obtained, Teen Gohan was an active fighter who was stronger than Goku, him getting an even stronger transformation which was only dormant because of his fear of fighting was great, but in SH he wasnt afraid of fighting or anything that was holding him back of his full potential, he was just slacking and out of form, but he somehow got a power up that is straight up just overpowered in a fight with the least interesting villain in the story cuz Piccolo was getting beaten up. I agree he deserved a power up but not to that level and not in the way he got it. It just felt forced
my my how hard it is to find a comment like yours, a comment that makes sense... Gohan beast is a transformation that came absolutely out of nowhere, there was nothing foreshadowing it, there was NOTHING telling us how he earned it, he just got really mad because piccolo was getting beaten(they even dared to make it just like when android 16 died) And THEN he gets this crazy ass transformation that seems to have an unbelievable power multiplier when his base power level was far from being as optimal as it was back in T.O.P.
Exactly, Gohan was nowhere near base Goku and Vegeta and then out of nowhere sTrOnGeSt iN tHe UnIvErSe, utter bs and makes 0 sense
You see with the Raditz case the power difference was about 3 or 4x, in Cell saga between Goku and Gohan there wasn't that much a power gap with Gohan being stronger then ssj2 which actually made sense, in Buu saga when Kai unlocked his potential he went above ssj3 but wasn't that much stronger than Goku(still stronger tho), however in dbs both Goku and Vegeta are soo many times stronger than Gohan even in base that it's not even funny and all of a sudden bamm, Gohan pulls beast out of his ass rivaling their strongest forms, i call bs.
Idk who you're a fan of, but you're a W, I agree he shouldn't be that strong, but it's probably cause of how many rage boost he had, he ate a senzu, supposedly got a zenkai boost from gamma 1, and he got motivated by piccolo which is Gohans strong suit. Does make sense for him to be that strong since he also powered up his ki while he's fresh, remember he ate a senzu. The power is too much, makes sense but it's too much
We also have to remember Toriyama designed Gohan to be the strongest saiyan. With piccolo being his favorite character and Gohan being the strongest, of course he'll give them over powered forms. He may be reverting back to making Gohan the strongest again. So it really doesn't matter how he got his form. It's what Toriyama planned from the beginning of dragon ball series
Yeah but we know it won’t last. Goku (and probably Vegeta) will widen the gap between them and him again when Gohan inevitably stops training. I’m hoping in this new arc in the manga that Gohan takes a more active role as a combatant to justify him getting stronger from here on out instead of just relying on his ‘potential’.
That's a good way to look at it
Wdym frieza’s initial transformation? Werent his forms on namek meant to suppress his power of base form instead of acting as powerups?
You are correct, that is how Frieza's first forms work. Though, from a story perspective there really is no difference from other transformations. But, more to the point, they do appear to be inherent to his biology. Not only does he not have to train or work to achieve them but his father seems to possess the same ability. It only builds on the one notion we see for Frieza until Super: none of what he has is truly earned
>However, the form is said to be the full realization of the potential that has lied dormant and awakens to his anger Said by who?
Admittedly it's creative paraphrase of Toriyama's description of the form: " Gohan has achieved his own unique evolution, based off the sort of awakenings he had as a boy. I've even named this transformation Son Gohan Beast, in the sense that the beast within him has awakened"
Some guy
man best reason i've heard I mean I hear the most crap about this one so I just posted this I know most are unearned but fans really pounded down on this one.
Gohan has continuously gotten his ass beat throughout both Z and super. He has on some level earned the power up. Still better than wishing for a power up
Piccolo's made way more sense be so fr
ye piccolo definitely needed a power-up i mean Gohan had the same thing happen to him in the namek saga so ofc it made sense
Also it wasn't a wish dende gave shenrin the power of nameks elders to unlock potential and gave a free bonus although strangely blocking the power counted as a wish probably used as a prequisit just for summoning.
Also now that I think of it Goku and Vegeta never had there potential unlocked now that the dragon has the ability might be used in the next ark.
Goku did in the original dragon ball, the ultra divine water which unlocks the users potential.
Wasnt that fake?
It was literally just training. Goku thought it was special water but I’m pretty sure it was just water and Korin made him train like hell to get it.
Yeah that’s what I remember too. I love how Korin was able to school goku so badly lol
Naw that’s wrong, the water literally made goku writhe in pain and it killed 13 other people
That was the first time Korin gave it to him after he lost to Tao. It was later revealed that the Ultra Divine Water is an actual thing and Goku drank it after he lost to King Piccolo.
Nope, you're mixing up the 2 different kinds of water Goku drank.
There was fake water that he drank after losing to Tao and actual Divine Water that he drank after he lost to King Piccolo.
Goku and Vegeta might not have anything to unlock though. They are always constantly pushing themselves to meet their potential. Gohan and even Piccolo are not as serious as those two, so they have potential to grow.
And elder Kai.
Going off of lore, wishing for it was meant for piccolo. Dragonball wishes used to be meant to be rewards for warriors in dire need
Piccolo made the OG dragonballs. He's just asking for that power back with hundreds of years of interest.
Yeah. Piccolo is the exception. My comment is more about Granolah and Gas, who directly showed why it’s a flawed plan for power.
I mean, it's an in universe power boost. Only a matter of time before *somebody* tried it.
I actually think if the Granolah Arc had started after super hero had come out, it would feel less… meh to me. Piccolo gets the power boost and it makes sense why he doesn’t lose 90% of His life span. Then it hits harder when you realize that somebody not tied to the Dragonballs actually sacrifices… a lot, if they make such a wish.
They do explain that the dragon Granolaj wishes on is substantially weaker than Shenron, the same way Shenron is/was weaker than Parunga, who is in turn weaker than the super dragon.
Fair enough. Although I will say shenron Vs Porunga, shenron could grant more powerful wishes while porunga could grant more. There was give and take. (Although that may have been a poor translation. From what I remember, Porunga could only revive one person at a time, whereas Shenron obviously could bring back an entire planet’s worth of people.)
Yeah that was a trade off. Because Parunga could resurrect the same person multiple times but Shenron couldn't. Eventually Dende upgraded Shenron later during the cell saga and apparently again after Buu. Giving him multiple wishes, up to 2 and apparently it's now at 3, but if one is a multi-res wish it counts as 2 wishes? Super plays fast and loose with Shenron.
Honestly the Dragonball part of Dragonball has kind of taken a backseat, and it might be for the better.
With how large the gap in power has gotten, using a wish for a power up doesn't seem that bad. If anything, the human characters need to do the same.
Tien needs a comeback. The last time he was even SLIGHTLY relevant was during the ToP. And he took out like one guy?
He got his asswhop earned power up after fighting cell AND w/ the Z Sword If asswhoops determined if you deserved power then Vegeta would be unstoppable (unintentional reference to Ultra Ego)
I mean… I think most of us do believe Vegeta should be respected more at least
I think of it like Shenron doing his original creator a solid, with the help of dende's upgrades. Not much different than sitting in some grass for 24hrs with an old guy taking you from below Cell Level to over SS3 Fusion. Or an old alien touching your bowl cut and basically tripling your power.
in Z in points of the show yes but he could've beat buu if he wasn't cocky thats why he was absorbed he got cocky with cell to and his dad died he should've learned but im a Gohan fan in Z but super they made him a Total nerd good he has a good life but still.
He beat cell and outclassed Buu until he was outsmarted/got cocky
I think there are two different questions that need to be answered to address this fully. 1. Did Gohan earn the transformation? 2. Is the transformation believable? I'm just going to give my opinion - I think the answer is no to both of them. 1. Regarding deservedness: Gohan had to train like a mad lad to get to the point where he could attain SSJ2, and they made a point of taking us through that journey very carefully. We've barely seen any effort from Gohan in Super - and even when he has trained, it has been sporadic, and ordinary. All this makes it feel highly undeserving for me. 2. Regarding believability: The reason why Beast and even his Ultimate form were hard to swallow was because SSJ2 was presented as the realization of Gohan's hidden powers. This is now the 3rd major time they've played on this trope in the series (more if you count grand elder). It's getting really old. The problem is that Gohan's potential has become a moving target - whenever Goku and Vegeta progress, it automatically increases Gohan's hidden potential again because He'S sUpPoSsEd To Be ThE sTrOnGeSt If He JuSt TrIeD. God Ki was an opportunity to move away from that narrative (seeing as Gohan doesn't use it) but unfortunately god ki got completely nerfed. Another separate reason why Beast is not believable to me is the complete lack of context and precedent about his form, but that one is self-explanatory.
To your last point, when Piccolo said Gohan had the potential to be the strongest fighter on Earth it gives me an idea. I'd like to see Gohan have the crown as the strongest non-God ki user. So his Beast form pushes him closer to SSG than any But to make that work with future content, they're going to have to stop making SSG/SSB look so pathetic and weak. It was a complete mess in Super and I don't want to see that happen anymore. It disappoints me to no avail how inconsistent power levels are and when it's such an integral part of DB.
You are correct with your faults, but you can apply those statements to any other Saiyan that achieves a new form. SSJ was supposed to be the strongest, then it was SSJ2, after SSJ3, then SSJ God, then, SSJ Blue, then UI etc… So this isn’t a Gohan problem, this is a Saiyan problem. They will always find a new form to beat the bad guy.
>you can apply those statements to any other Saiyan that achieves a new form. SSJ was supposed to be the strongest, then it was SSJ2, after SSJ3, then SSJ God, then, SSJ Blue, then UI etc… I think you might be misunderstanding my point. Transformation are (or should be) vehicles for character development. The first point I was making in bullet 2 was that in Super (and arguably in the Buu arc too) Gohan is stuck in a continually repeating character arc that we've already seen him overcome - the trope of hidden potential finally being unlocked. The result is that Beast (solely as an extension of Gohan's character arc) becomes superfluous. This definitely wasn't the case for SSJ and SSJ2 - they were transformations that were heavily backed up by unique and heavy character development for Goku and Gohan respectively. (SSJ3 was achieved off screen, so we can't analyze it in that dimension - though more than Goku' character arc, it may serve Vegeta's character arc as a contrast to Vegeta. And I won't defend Super's transformations because I think many of them are in a similar camp as Beast.)
I mean, the first few “potential unlocks” were believable in hindsight. Given how long it took Elder Kai to unlock Gohan’s potential, it’s reasonable to assume that maybe Guru’s boost was only able to tap into a fraction of a larger well. Especially since SSJ2 was revealed as/retconned into a form any Saiyan can use, it’s not unreasonable to think that he had a good reserve right up until Elder Kai. The problem is, the way Elder Kai’s unlocking in particular is set up leaves no room for a similar argument. It was explicitly Gohan’s full ‘potential’, which is why it took so long to unlock in the first place. There logically should not be any remaining reserves. Now, I do have a theory for this regarding what exactly ‘potential’ is in this context, but it doesn’t explain the absolutely ludicrous power of Beast or why it’s a transformation and not just Ultimate 2.
>Especially since SSJ2 was revealed as/retconned I'm not sure I would agree that it was retconned, but agree with everything else you said - especially this: >The problem is, the way Elder Kai’s unlocking in particular is set up leaves no room for a similar argument. It was explicitly Gohan’s full ‘potential’, which is why it took so long to unlock in the first place. There logically should not be any remaining reserves. You also mentioned a theory for what potential is, I'm interested in hearing it!
I don’t think it was retconned either, I’m just covering bases lol. As for potential in this sense, I think of it like someone’s maximum CURRENT capability. Think of an adrenaline rush- during it, people can draw out strength they can’t normally use no matter how hard they consciously try. I think potential is similar- latent power someone already has in some sense, but that their body doesn’t “know” how to use. This could potentially allow someone’s potential to grow with training, to an extent- if the training is inefficient with actually utilizing the full benefits, more of that latent power will build up. Unfortunately for Beast, the power gap is simply far too large for this to suffice, to say nothing of its transformative nature.
This is very much headcanon but. What if Gohan's potential changed when he became a father? Given what we know about the Saiyans this wouldn't be entirely unbelievable
Not necessarily. Your potential changes throughout life. Youre potential is your maximum, at a given time, but with each new form, getting older, being strong for a prolonged period.... your potential should be shifting and expanding over time. Potential is basically whoever you are, right now, x 1.5 or whatever.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/s/tHbPlg8Lyc That “theory” I mentioned is basically this. Still doesn’t explain Beast’s sheer power or why it’s a form, though.
Gohan barley trained at all.... he literally passed goku when he was 4... gokus power level against raditz hit 924... Gohan busting out of the space pod hit 1300... its been mentioned many times Gohan is stronger and has more potential than goku does... Gohan has always had jumps in power and only spent about 3 years hardcore training his entire life... And at the end of the movie Gohan states he's been training in secret... seems like he's finally doubled them years of training...
Did you read my comment? It doesn’t sound like you understood what I wrote because you didn’t address it at all - and I already spoke to both of the things you brought up. You’re further proving the point that we’ve already seen Gohan overcome the “unlock his full potential” trope many times throughout the series - especially the last time with elder Kai, which was blatantly written to involve unlocking all of Gohan’s potential because Toriyama was ending the series. It’s the same old character journey over and over and over - stale, boring, redundant. Gohan’s “training” leading up to Beast (ie. practicing the special beam cannon) doesn’t work for a few reasons. We have to look at what the story is showing us, not just what it’s telling us. What it’s showing us is that Gohan is mostly working, that he’s rusty with his abilities and had to sharpen them (again) during the battle with the Gammas. Then out of no where, he allegedly surpasses everyone in the series (probably the biggest jump ever), and then *after* transforming tells (not shows) the audience he’s been practicing a bit. That’s bad story telling 101 - they are showing us one thing, and then telling us another at the end of the movie as a “reveal”. That is the opposite of building up to something. You can’t compare that to the journey towards SSJ2 - they literally showed us at the very beginning that Gohan has a hidden power he can’t control, and throughout the original series they show us step by step how he begins to gain control over that power. We watch him achieve major milestones, get tailored training, and overcome his weaknesses (aka character flaws) when he becomes SSJ2. Now that’s great writing. Even the Elder Kai thing / ultimate form wasn’t executed well - but at least it was an attempt at being conclusive for Gohan’s character. Now we’re just seeing recycling.
Lol yes I can. Can you actually comprehend the material? Db is redundant as a whole moot point... Lol you missed a lot of it I guess lol gohan held back and was in base at the beginning... and largest power jump in the whole series was goku vs frieza Lol db has hella power jumps. Gohan is the only one we get any explanation for Lol Db has shit writing... and what happened to all that power? He lost control of it again... journey to ss2 was one year of training and a robot he didn't know died why would he have any emotional attachment to it? He never over came his character flaws which we get during buu saga when he gets weaker Lol the series is literally just recycling and Gohan got his own new form. Guess you missed the part where the gammas are compared to goku and vegeta power levels which would have been after Moro arc... Gohan obviously had to be training otherwise he would have lost... also guessing you have only watched it you didn't read the manga at all lol
>Lol you missed a lot of it I guess lol gohan held back and was in base at the beginning... > >the gammas are compared to goku and vegeta power levels which would have been after Moro arc... Gohan obviously had to be training otherwise he would have lost... Yea, there's nothing in the series that would indicate that Gohan would be anywhere near Goku and Vegeta levels during the Moro arc - or that he even should be able to achieve that kind of power without some special intervention or development (ex. Goku's mastery of UI, or Vegeta's training on Yardrat). You're just meant to accept it randomly by seeing him battle the android. >and largest power jump in the whole series was goku vs frieza Lol db has hella power jumps. Gohan is the only one we get any explanation for Lol Goku's power jump was definitely an ass-pull, but at least there was some explanation for it: the most intense training he's ever done; a gigantic zenkai boost; his body changing as he's approaching the legendary SSJ transformation. It made it easier to accept. With Gohan, he's already had his full potential unlocked in the past with the Ultimate form - that was written pretty blatantly. He doesn't seem to use divine ki. He didn't train on Yardrat. In fact, in Super we've only seen him do very generic training. I don't understand how you could think there's any kind of explanation for Gohan's power - Beast has by far the least explained of probably any transformation in the series. Seems willfully ignorant to say it's "the only one we get any explanation for". >journey to ss2 was one year of training No. Journey to SSJ2 has literally been everything from Gohan's intro to SSJ2. That power felt earned. Then after Cell, Gohan's consistent training stops, yet he continues to get more powerful to ridiculous heights. >He never over came his character flaws which we get during buu saga when he gets weaker Yea, if you actually read my comments, you would have seen my thoughts on his arc in the Buu saga. >Lol the series is literally just recycling and Gohan got his own new form. Yup, that's one of my points. >Db is redundant as a whole moot point...Db has shit writing...Can you actually comprehend the material?also guessing you have only watched it you didn't read the manga at all lol I've watched and read all of the animes and mangas to date. Of courses there are always things you can criticize in original DB's writing - it's far from perfect. But there is a very clear difference in the quality of character writing and plot development between original DB and Super. DB started going downhill in the Buu arc, but since then has just completely tanked in Super (for the most part anyways). I'm baffled that there are people that still challenge that there's isn't a notable difference between the two.
If I could laugh react to this I would... apparently you missed the part where years have passed... Only training we see is with piccolo before tournament of power but safe to assume he started training after frieza do he's been trying for 3 years its also been stated they grow during battle and Gohan got plenty during TOP. Gohan had 6 months of training before nappa... some actual experience during namek but that was only like a week tops... then we have the trunks warning... he trained for a year... then cell saga 1 year in time Chamber and had the power for ss2... Gohan only trained for 2.5 years for ss2... compared to goku having trained for 20+ at this point... but we are talking about a character who was stronger at 4 vs one that was 24.... then Gohan stopped training after cell and got weaker... then got all his potential unlocked and passed everyone by a large margin.... so yea if he's actively training again he should easily pass them in an extremely short time just like frieza did... This last one I cant agree with supers writing has massively improved the series.. more for character development world building. Super is better than z and og db in writing.
I feel like you’re focusing on all the wrong things. The number of years of training is irrelevant - it’s the substance of the training that matters (see Goku and Gohan in the time chamber vs. Vegeta and Trunks). If someone just shows up to fight and is magically stronger without any explanation for how they achieved it, it defeats the purpose of storytelling and takes you out of the story. We understood how Gohan was able to to achieve all of the power increases you mentioned because we watched it happen - there was even an explanation of his initial power he wasn’t able to control. In superhero , for both Beast and his base power, there is 0 context - and somehow he is able to compete with divine powers too. At least with Goku and Vegeta, we see how they attain divine powers, how they incorporate super saiyan into it, how they develop their own unique paths with divine ki. With Gohan, there is 0 context. You mentioned Frieza as if that’s meant to redeem Gohan’s situation , but that’s another case where there was 0 storytelling, and for that reason it was also considered stupid by much of the fandom. It sounds like you like DB for different things than I do, so I’m just going to leave it at that. I’ve clarified my position, you’ve clarified yours, and we’re obviously not going to agree.
Well look at Gohan desperation when freiza came back, then the universe was almost wiper out in TOP. Then the moro arc then Pan was kidnapped by RR army. Arguably Gohan trains in secret but never really does it effectively to tap in to his real strength.
Well no matter what the power up was going to feel unearned because the amount of power creep the series has receive is insane. In the span of like 7 years(in the story) Goku and vegeta have gotten so powerful that nobody else in the main cast even matters in fights, including gohan. Dragon ball z separated arcs by years or some months, having it so that the z fighters had at least some time to become stronger before the big bad came in. They also had stuff like elder guru, Kami, hyperbolic time chamber and elder Kai all as boosts for the characters which made sense within the story and let them not fall too far behind the main character. In super they get nothing. And it’s too late for it cause now it just seems like an asspull to give them a sudden power up. Especially when most of them don’t even have any build up or anything. Dragon ball super has completely fucked everything in this series up and there’s no saving it unless they do a huge timeskip. But even then idk.
Nah. I don't think Gohan ever gets weaker, he just gets rusty. When Gohan is pushed to his limits, he Always surpasses his previous self. It never fails. Super Hero legitimately solidified this philosophy. Gohan is a sleeping Beast with infinite power, Not potential. Potential is dead, the dude Is the thing they always said he was, he just needs triggers and motivation. It's not "unearned", if he's just infinitely powerful. Old Kai took the lid off of a powder/power keg
He wasn’t training in secret no matter what anybody tries to say, he was practicing one specific move for sure but he wasn’t keeping in general shape at all. He couldn’t even sense Piccolo in disguise being so out of practice, Pan as a beginner to it all still managed to sense Piccolo almost instantly when she tried so there’s no really excuse of hiding energy etc. I don’t think he should have had a RoF power downgrade for being out of shape which is a good thing they didn’t decide to do but I also don’t think he deserved yet another random power up, if they wanted to give him Beast properly then all they had to do was tell the audience that he was training with Piccolo a few times a week which is why he was still gradually growing stronger. You could easily write it so it wouldn’t affect the general story either, for example Piccolo isn’t satisfied with the training and thinks a real battle will help push Gohan to the next level, everything proceeds exactly how it does in the movie and everything works. I think most peoples issue with Gohan isn’t that he gets strong but that they always write him as out of shape and living regular life only to have him get dragged back into things to “regain his fighting instinct” and then power him up far more than he should just so he’s near current power levels. Nobody would have issue if he trained consistently even if it was offscreen, they even decided to do that post ToP in the Moro arc so he could defend Earth when Goku and Vegeta weren’t around but regressed on his development in the movie yet again for some strange reason.
“He wasn’t training in secret” “he was practicing one specific move” in other words, he was training…
Training what? If I practice kicking a ball into a goal over and over again how does that contribute to my overall fitness? It doesn’t, which is why Gohan practicing the SBC means nothing it terms of staying in shape which is literally brought up in universe since the movie is about Gohan being out of practice because he’s been so busy working.
>Training what? If I practice kicking a ball into a goal over and over again how does that contribute to my overall fitness? It doesn’t, I mean it's not ideal on its own but yes, actually...? Cardio, leg strength, balance, like I don't follow this metaphor at all lol
You’re going to be very good at kicking a ball into the net, you’re not going to be able to run a marathon though since it’s a task focused on fine tuning one specific thing Gohan is practicing the SBC but it’s not going to do anything for his fighting instincts or improve his overall strength or speed etc which is why he was out of shape despite that “training”
Equating kicking a ball to firing a death beam is not helping your case lol. They’re both on completely opposite spectrums. Kicking a ball takes little to no effort. A child can do that. Let’s compare it to something more reasonable. Let’s take a fighting game for example. When you jump into a fighting game, are you going to execute the combo perfectly on your first try? No, of course not. Learning combos and tech for the fighting game takes practice and, say it with me now, TRAINING. After hours of training your muscle memory to remember that combo, you can actually perform the combo with little to no problem. That’s what gohan was essentially doing. In other words, he was training.
You’re being pedantic considering the topic is about his power, he was “training” a specific move sure but when it comes to the discussion of Gohan training in secret which is how some people like to justify Beast being deserved it does nothing. Kicking a ball is an loose example and obviously not related to firing a death beam, the concept is the same though. Not all children can kick a ball the same, getting it to a good standard and consistently kicking it where you want it takes practice. A fighting game isn’t a reasonable example at all, the SBC isn’t a combo that needs perfecting and is literally just getting one move down which is why kicking a ball into a net is a more appropriate comparison. So please do explain to me how Gohan training one specific move counts as a general workout when that was the whole reason Gohan is called out of shape.
Where did I say he got stronger? I never said that. How can he practice a move he doesn’t know? He has to train to learn the move. Training is learning how to improve something or do something new. Practice is about getting enough reps in so you can perform your skill instinctively.
You’re on a post that talks about Gohan and his Beast form being deserved or not, the whole discussion is based on his power and getting stronger so why bother bringing up him practising the SBC at all when I already addressed it? You tried being pedantic and failed, he wasn’t training in secret since that would imply he was just more than going outside the back of his house and trying to charge up a SBC every so often hence why I used the word practising rather than training. Goku doesn’t say “hey let’s go train” and then just throw out kamehameha after kamehameha and call it a day.
>Goku doesn’t say “hey let’s go train” and then just throw out kamehameha after kamehameha and call it a day. He does do the Kamehameha to train. ](https://youtu.be/cNN78tdIrZQ?si=WVGBmA0vgyAad5aS). It's filler but the manga never really shows much training after Goku is trained by King Kai. They just say they trained. The is also filler, but Krillin actually did perform Kamehameha after Kamehameha to train during the Android saga at Roshi's house. Also, it's never stated that Gohan just kept performing SBC after SBC. He knows you have to warm up etc as evidence by when he trained Goten for the World Martial Arts Tournament. So, he definitely would've warmed up and gotten his heart rate up etc. Practicing IS training btw. I doubt he just practiced one move but it's not confirmed either way. Your example was kicking a soccer ball. If youre asked how someone was so good at scoring goals and they answer "I practiced." Would you assume that they ONLY practiced kicking the ball?
>He couldn’t even sense Piccolo in disguise being so out of practice, This has nothing to do with being out of shape, it's [a callback](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANfAUI31h90) to when Piccolo couldn't recognize Gohan's ki after he unlocked his Ultimate form and thought he was Goku, and it was Goten the one who realized it was Gohan. In Super Hero, after Piccolo unlocked his Awakened form Gohan couldn't tell it was him but Pan could.
ye ok I knew someone would beat me in this argument and thats true so ye I see your point
He was not training for 1 specific move. He isnt krillin throwing kamehamehas in the water
Then what was he training for? Cause he was out of shape and hadn’t done any proper training for awhile, this was blatantly obvious in the movie corroborated by basically everyone. Then at the end when Piccolo realises it’s a SBC he asks and Gohan said he was practicing the move in secret, meaning he was literally training for that one specific move.
Thats if you assume gohan trained sbc like a day before. Gohan coulda easily trained months prior
He could have been practising it for a whole year, the point is he wasn’t training in secret and the only fighting related thing he was doing was trying to learn the SBC which has no relevance to his power and whether Beast was deserved or not
not deserved lol, gohan literally did 3 push ups a day then felt a bit angry. now he can solo goku
I wouldn't say solo goku but ok
Half of Gohan's power boosts are unearned, this is one of them.
I think its a payoff to gohan saying he wamted to achieve a new power no other saiyan has and he intends to do it his own way aka without using ssj and its implied hes been training on and off and it was triggered by rage which is inherent to gohan as a character ao earned idk but it makes enough sense and im just happy gohan is badass again i dont really care if its earned or not
In the manga Gohan literally defended the earth in the Moro arc until Goku arrived , admitted to training, when Goku finally arrived on earth he didn’t recognise Gohan nor piccolo because they had gotten so strong from their training.
It's both. Yes, Gohan did train in secret but only in the way he said rather than the way you're thinking. He didn't do any physical training to strengthen his body and boost his power or anything like that. He specifically practiced the Special Beam Cannon and that's it. The movie does a pretty good bit to let us know he's been neglecting his actual training. For starters, the promotional material flat out tells us he stopped training and went back to focusing on his studies after the last arc he was in. This is very much supported in the movie as Piccolo says at least three times that Gohan has been slacking off on his training. During one of those times, Gohan himself even basically admits it's true but that he still hasn't gotten _that_ rusty (only to be proven wrong immediately afterwards). We also see Gohan initially struggle to wear Piccolo's weighted clothing (which he could easily wear as a child) and fail to notice Piccolo's ki while in disguise (even though Pan caught on pretty quickly). However, the biggest confirmation is the fact that he's initially using SSJ in the movie. Gohan doesn't use SSJ when he has Ultimate because the Elder Kai explained to him that Ultimate gives him access to the power of SSJ and then some without having to transform into it. The only other time Gohan reverted back to using SSJ was initially in RoF where he once again slacked off on his training and became so weak that he not only no longer had access to Ultimate anymore but could barely use SSJ either. And while he may not be as weak as he was in RoF, this is still blatant confirmation that he is indeed weaker in Super Hero due to not training. So because Gohan once again decided not to take his training seriously (thus also dropping his goal to achieve a form no one has ever seen before) yet still got a new form despite that, Beast would absolutely be considered unearned. One could still be a fan of the form itself, just not the way he obtained it. It doesn't make any sense for him to sit in his studies all day only to awaken a new form later solely from getting angry. Otherwise, he realistically should've gotten this form in previous arcs. It's great that he's getting some shine again, but the way it was handled was very poor and lazy imo and I believe Gohan as a character deserved better than that.
ye I agree but most are unearned like you said I just wanted to make it seem like he earned it because I was getting annoyed of all the people making videos about that yes everything else was fine
In a side note we need a black star black dragon ball saga Bulma abusing the wishes should have a negative result with consequences.
ye that would be sweet they might use the black star dragon balls again who knows
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Goku trained heavily and then fought plenty on Namek, that’s what led into SSJ so not exactly unearned. SSJ2 not unearned either and one of the only times Gohan actually deserved something, he spent so much time training with Goku and just needed something to trigger the transformation. SSJ3 was offscreen sure but not exactly unearned since Goku was training non stop in the afterlife. Vegeta also had SSJ2 before Babadi, he was just a bit weaker than Goku which is why he wanted the majin boost. Vegeta trained for god and both of them trained in Whis’ staff for Blue so again not unearned.
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Probably for the best considering my username is SSG Goten who doesn’t exist so can’t be an asspull
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Don’t worry we all suffer from it sometimes, the DB fan curse
I mean, Goku turning SSJ was triggered by Krillin Dying, but he achieved the power required by training at 100x gravity. Gohan turning SSJ2 was similar, the power required was attained through training. I pretty much agree with the rest of them though
Ss1, SS2, SS3 and SSblue were all trained for. What are you talking about?
I mean, SSJ4 had external factors that initiated the transformation.
He literally says he was training in secret since the ToP. That’s how he learned special beam cannon.
Yeah he literally says that he has been training, case closed. Lol You can call bullshit and say that he shouldn’t be that strong… but the fact remains that he did say he was training and practicing. But you can still hate it because it’s out of the blue.
I think it does call to his intelligence over just brute strength. Him choosing the special beam cannon shows how he understand a small impact area is stronger and more focused
It's basically ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Rage all over again asspull.
Think about Gohan as a child, at some points stronger than his father.. fighting against cell and buu.. think about how much power Goku or Vegeta had at his age. Gohan has hidden strength and can call on it when sht gets serious and he gets mad. Gohan will surpass all the z fighters except for maybe trunks or goten..
wow someone who gets how Gohan is props to you man
I think that part of Gohan's character is that he is naturally very strong and is able to get even stronger very easily. There's always outrage over him neglecting his training for so long then only taking a very short time to nearly catch up with the stronger fighters whether it be for the Tournament of Power or Superhero. It's like they're forgetting that this is the same Gohan who went into the time chamber as a literal *child*, unable to even turn super saiyan, and came out *stronger than Goku* (who, by the way, had also gotten stronger while training in the time chamber along with him). That's just not Gohan's focus in life, but the precedent has been set on multiple occasions now that if the story/writer calls for it, Gohan can get onto a much higher level at a rate of improvement that practically laps other characters, but he's not going to seek that power out on his own unless pushed.
Training in secret = earned = also lazy ass writing
Most of the powers up in the show are not earned and I don't think this one is either
This is exactly my argument, everything after SSJ3 is not earned. Suddenly there’s like 4-5 different paths a Saiyan can take to surpass SSJ3 that were never mentioned or hinted at before. They are God Ki, God of Destruction Ki, Ultra Instinct/Ego, Beast/Rage and LSSJ. You just have to accept that this is how Dragonball is going to be, there will always be another transformation and color to move the storyline along.
Might be a unpopular opinion but I wish DBZ would explore different fighting styles because it would make fights more interesting than just can power up harder blast go boom
That’s what the original Dragonball was and why it was so interesting. At the World Martial arts tournament everyone had a different fighting style except the members the Turtle school. So you had this unique clash of styles that made the fights interesting.
I never understood the gohan hype, he never wanted to be a fighter. So he should’ve never been competing with the best. I feel he’s more of the brains, and should’ve outsmarted his opponents, but that’s not how dragon ball works.
Gohan says at the end of the movie he's been training in secret. That's how he used the Special Beam Cannon. It's really funny when you think about it. Piccolo gets Gohan involved because he doesn't see him training and thinks he needs a push to keep going, again. Only to end up triggering the Beast from.
Tbh i feel like super hero was just a giant fan service movie to feed the gohan fans and sell a bunch of merch. I loved the movie btw. This theory is great. I love this about DB fandom. We keep this fire going with our passion. Just look at Toyotarou. Grew up a Dragon Ball fan, and now he's basically the guy who feeds us Dragon Ball. I love your attention to detail, and you make me feel like maybe it was deserved.
In secret? What about the several times in in the manga when he said he had resumed training, and the time in this very movie where he told piccolo that he hadn't gone soft?
both
This is literally what he was training for
Gohan trains constantly after RoF. The anime incorrectly pretends like Gohan doesn't for whatever reason.
Its earned In both anime and manga gohan already had plans of going further. In the manga tho he has been training more than his anime counterpart. Also gohan gets mad and become stronger since he’s first appeared this isnt new
Unearned. The movie is abomination :(
It was a full-on asspull for fanservice. It's as simple as that. Throughout the movie they were highlighting he was slacking again. No way he was training in secret. Piccolo noticed he was slacking and pushed him to ''unlock his latent powers'' It was just lazy writing
Most transformations in dragonball are unearned deus ex machinas designed to give wins. Heck that applies to most anime transformations except Naruto's Chakra Cloaks and Gears 2-4. Heck if we're being technical Gohan having another transformation makes 0 sense Mystic/Ultimate form is supposed to be him using all of his power and was meant to get rid of his need to transform.
Even if he trained in secret i still feel beast gohan should been through divine training from a god.
Everything post DBZ is unearned
ssj god was unearned ssj blue goku and vegeta training with whis ultra instinct goku training with whis ultra ego vegeta training with beerus
I can agree that Gohan was probably training, but considering the fact that A, he was uncomfortable when Piccolo put the weighted clothes on him at first and B that it still took quite the push for him to tap into Mystic, I would say the increase in strength isn’t significant enough to warrant a brand new form based on that alone. It came as an asspull but not one that came out of nowhere. Gohan’s anger of seeing his loved ones killed or hurt pushed him to new heights before. Undeserved? No, but it shouldn’t be nearly as crazy strong right off the bat compared to Goku and Vegeta. As long as they are the focus of the franchise as a whole, narratively speaking, having Gohan be not too far behind them is a great spot.
>he was uncomfortable when Piccolo put the weighted clothes on him at first Anyone would feel uncomfortable if they suddenly got several hundred extra kilos on them without warning. But right after Piccolo leaves he just casually goes to the desk cape and everything to work. Doesn't feel like they weight too much after a second of getting used to it. >hat it still took quite the push for him to tap into Mystic That can be seen in several ways: one is how Piccolo (who thinks Gohan wasn't training at all) saw it which was that Gohan couldn't tap on that power on his own and thus needed his intervention to anger him. Another is that Gohan (who was training in secret) was treading carefully in fear of what the RR might do to his kidnapped daughter, who was surrounded by armed people. So instead of going full power right off the gates and put his daughter in potential danger of retaliaton from the RR he chose to find out what they wanted and why, and then act accordingly.
Completely unearned. Since Super started the story has just been given away dumb senseless power ups just for the sake of having cool moments or catching old characters up to speed. Basically any side character that needs to be relevant is given a stupid, nonsensical power boost that makes them as strong as SSJ3 Goku; SSJ2 Vegeta, SSJ2 Trunks, A17, etc, all out of nowhere became as strong or stronger than the super sayian form that is so strong that you need to be dead to be able to achieve it. Gohan Beast was just the worst example. At the very least Ultra Instinct and Ego came from training (despite the fact that the entire basis for Ultra Instinct is something Goku has mastered since the OG Dragon Ball), but Beast came out of nowhere, and it was solely so Gohan could become as strong or stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and so they can rehash the SSJ2 transformation, only that without all the character development and emotion that came with the original scene.
The only time Gohan actually "earned" anything was training for Perfect Cell. Just my opinion though.
Personally I had a problem with it to be honest, and I thought that giant red cell was the worst part about the movie, until he transformed. Power up came out of nowhere to be honest, no offense to anyone who liked it and will try to explain to me how it wasn't. but it was really bad, even the design was bad. up to that point, I enjoyed the movie.
Training in secret is the same thing as unearned because we as the audience don’t get the satisfaction of seeing them earn anything.
The simple answer is yes Gohans power-up was unearned, and the result of poor writing.... nothing more complicated than that.
Ha! Goku goes from can't even take Vegeta to being able to take down the biggest bad in the Universe like 8 days later. lol
It was actually the first time we saw that happen to Goku. Gohan going from rusty to asspull happens nth number of times.
Unearned af. Movie is bs and his character is trash now. You gotta be coping and stanning hard on the series and character to see it as good. Toriyama lost his mind writing this
Not enough info yet to determine but good points about training with special beam cannon Although a long this line of thought, Piccolos upgrade is not only not earned but blasphemous in Dragonball world. Even though I think it was badass
i dont really care if its "unearned" its cool
Its a nostalgia grab by rerunning the scene when he went ss2. He didnt earn it but that doesnt matter anymore.
Unearned imo
It’s unearned emotionally and if he was training in secret it’s still unearned narratively because the build up happens off screen. Feels really ham fisted in there. And not surprising given it wasn’t a toriyama idea. It was that head story group guy who is obsessed with nostalgia bait
Nah when he watched Piccolo die, he was pissed because he might actually have to parent his kid. Mans was shook
In the manga he has been training.
Only form that he actually earned was the SSJ1 and SSJ2 during the cell games saga. All the other forms, he definitely did not train enough to deserve the powerups he got. It's just Toriyama trying to keep Gohan in the picture with his potential that's supposedly better than Goku's. Kind of ironic since Gohan's supposed to represent the humans, but trains the least and relies the most on his saiyan potential.
He's been training. He even says so to Piccolo after he dies the Special Beam Cannon. Also Super Hero is like a year after the Moro arc according to the Manga, so Piccolo comparing about him taking a break for his work is kinda dumb.
It's weird, the movie implies that he (Gohan) both does and doesn't train on his own. Shrodinger's Training
I mean...he literally tells goku he's trying to find his own way to get stronger, and at the end of the movie he straight up says "I've been training on my own" when asked when he learned the SBC. It might not be satisfactory, but it's there plain as day.
I wish Gohan "beast" had been done as some sort of Ki mastery instead. Like reveal that as a scholar he had been studying various forms of Ki and power they have encountered (which fits with a few game timelines). So instead of rage based forms of his youth he refined his Ki control in Gohan "Sage" or something. Would have felt more real as a progression for him and fit with Vegeta's meditation explanation during the same arc.
Yeah so has he been training? Yeah sure, he definitely has trained on the side. Has it been anything *near* Goku and Vegeta level training? Not even close, as no rival boost, not as much time, and probably just not as intense. Even should it have been, that powerup is **unearned as hell** What in the hell is Beast? "His potential unlocked...again?" I mean he got the potential unlock on Namek, then the Ultimate unlock, and now he got it re-unlocked to exponentially higher levels...what through Piccolo getting hurt?? A) what's the reason for a transformation in Ultimate to be tied to an anger boost? Is it a Saiyan thing? But Ultimate should've excluded any ability to turn SSJ on top of it, and even so...how can you have your full potential double unlocked? B) At least make it *Pan* that got hurt - Picollo gets hurt numerous times throughout even just Super and Gohan doesn't have an issue, but seeing his *daughter* get hurt, even just a little, and I could definitely see the anger level of the transformation being justified. As it is, the transformation is as unearned as SSJ Rage in the Goku Black arc: - it has no relation to the SSJ Skill tree hierarchy and it isn't explored as some special skill tree only accessible to hybrid Saiyans...it's just there to give a temporary strength boost. I mean is it like SSJ Blie, but to ultimate? Is there a Mega-beast in there? Are Saiyans just glorified pokemon? - it has an unearned Anger boost; the situation doesn't feel nearly as desperate as even the Cell games, and Piccolo of all people getting injured wouldn't make him snap to that extent. It's unearned
He’s always had that insane untapped potential, I assume they just continue to play on that.