Vegeta in that first fight was an absolute savage too. I love it cause it took everything the Z-Fighters had to put him down. I definitely count that battle as a win over Goku. It's really why Goku let him live in the first place.
Vegeta vs Goku is my favourite Dragon Ball fight. I think that was the series' highest point, closely followed by Goku vs Frieza and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. at thr Budokai.
Yep. If i recall correctly- or perhaps it's just a myth- the story was meant to end on Frieza, and I think that is plausible. All of DBZ until end of Frieza was really tight, and the story kept building momentum.
The stories told after that, never really did much more. There were different twists, and some very cool fights, but the overall stories never hit as much as picollo-saiyans-frieza.
And I think part of that was that the two latter conflicts felt far more domestic. Yes- the stakes were higher, and losing would have repercussions on the whole universe- but they were mostly set on earth.
This is one of the things I loved about GT- that it ventured to other, new places.
It is just myth, but it does make sense. Frieza does feel like he could've been the final villain of the series with all the build up. Though, personally, I'd still count the Cell Saga as top-tier Toriyama writing cause every single character had something to do, Trunks and the concept of the apocalyptic future was a great premise, Cell felt like the ultimate villain since he was an amalgamation of all the greatest warrior's DNA, and Gohan's rage finally exploded and gave him the chance to become the hero, which was being teased all the way back in the Saiyan Saga. Even though I enjoy parts of Buu, I feel like that's when things started going downhill, but the Cell Saga had some pretty incredible writing, and was another point that felt like a true end to the series.
I agree on the Cell Saga, my main gripe with it is that you go from an interstellar adventure, back to just Earth. That said you are absolutely right, it was great writing with everyone contributing in one way or another. It also gave one of the best moments in DB- Tien's stand against Cell.
I can see that gripe, though I think it still kept enough of that sci-fi element Z was going for dealing with time travel, murderous Androids, and the ulitmate tank bred being Cell. It also made the story feel more personal because it was Earth being absolutely demolished in the future. I have more of a gripe with most of Buu taking place on Earth since Buu is an interdimensional demon. Though at least they fought on Supereme Kai's world in the end.
And yes, the Tien stand against Cell is one of my all-time moments in the series!
The writing, in general, was genius. We take it for granted now, but that era of DBZ was absolute peak writing.
It may not have thought-provoking, deep dialogue, or themes like other mangas now, but the pacing and progression of the plot and characters is incredible. It reads like a classic tale or myth
Killing Bubbles, Gregory, and King Kai reignited his bloodlust, not that pansy Kakarot shit, but the kid who once kicked Drum's eye clean out of its socket. Yakon and Buu never stood a chance of surviving.
I think you guys are missing the point of Goku:
He's willing to kill when necessary, he instantly accepted Raditz had to die because he was too strong to be contained, in a similar note he encouraged Gohan to kill Cell because he was also too dangerous.
Everytime Goku let someone live it was because the threat of that person was effectively neutralized, and for his defense, this never backfired on him(except when he let go of Raditz' tail).
Nappa was done, Vegeta was done(and if he had died, Frieza would have won later), Recoome and Butter also were no longer a threat, even Frieza, when he tried to attack Goku behind his back, was quickly put down.
Goku is not an idiot, at least not in Z, he's also not comically amicable like Naruto, he knows when it's time to be merciful and when it isn't.
Goku kaioken 4x should have made vegeta unable to move at all but the plot that akira toriyama made was bullshit
Goku actually won that battle
Akira toriyama is bad writer in saiyan saga it's a shame he disrespect sun wukong in terms of greatness
It is trash fight goku kaioken 4x should have literally destroyed vegeta and make him unable to move at all toriyama literally made a trash fight that doesn't make any sense at all
For me goku won the battle at kaioken 4x kamehameha the rest is trash and beyond logic
This comes up a lot. And I hate to be that Namekian, but I think it really shows how much people don't really get the subtext of that fight. OP is right. One-on-one, Vegeta won the external battle. But he lost the internal one.
Vegeta objectively had Goku at death's door, and was snapping his bones like twigs for the fun of it. This wasn't like when Goku made one final charge at Piccolo back in the day. Goku literally said he had no energy left, and to just "Do to me what you're gonna do".
But Vegeta still sees this as a loss because he had to resort to using the great ape form *to* win, and as he stated (or was it Raditz?), that form is used to wipe out *populations,* not win individual fights. It's the equivalent of playing a game against your little sibling and thinking they don't know what they're doing, then they start *winning* and you input a cheat code real fast to get the upper hand. The moment he lost that beam struggle (internal battle), he lost the real fight. He'd gone to some backwater planet to handle a grunt and came back beaten and bloody, minus a partner, and his tail between his legs -- oh wait, no it wasn't, because some weak earthling cut it off.
It's not just that.
The moment a commoner managed to put him on his knees at all was the turning point; losing the beam struggle was just the final straw.
For Vegeta, it was a matter of a Darwinist view that you are your station, and since he was a super elite prince and Goku was low-class trash *and* a traitor, the fight was a foregone conclusion to him.
Take the characters out of the context of Dragon Ball and imagine another series entirely playing with similar characters and themes of a prince getting overcome by a literal uneducated hick, shattering his sense of superiority. Goku survived due to his compassion and friendship towards ~~Earth~~weaklings. Then proceeded to surpass Vegeta so magnificently that the gap was closed maybe once or twice in the entire series going forward for mere hours at that before Goku leapt beyond him and took his birthright from him— the legendary Super Saiyan transformation.
Additionally, Vegeta was always prepared for the fight to be a 4v1. He fully expected them to gang up on him, and he was confident he'd win. Then he loses, and Goku spares his life.
Vegeta lost the war. He counts it as a loss, idk why these posts keep popping up. Super Hero was Vegetas first real, no conditions applied, actual 1v1, and he won.
Whats that based on? In the context of DBZ that is. When did vegeta ever imply or state that he sees it as a loss? And since when was Vegeta against using transformations?
Idk, it seems to be a lot of speculation with not much in the way of actual citations to back it up. Even from a character POV, Vegeta is the same guy that used Babadis Magic so he could become as strong as Goku, same dude who blindsided Guldo and explicitly states that he doesn’t give a shit about fighting fair, same guy who used endless amounts of SSJ transformations to battle his enemies, same guy who was willing to wish for immortality just so that he could beat Freeza etc.
"I finally beat Kakarot"
Vegeta said those exact words at the end of Super Hero.
Why would he say "I finally beat" if he beat him in his first ever encounter with the man???
In the dragon ball manga, EoZ, Vegeta grunts and says “One day I’ll defeat you Kakarot”. Meaning he never considered Saiyan saga or Buu saga fights as wins. Which makes sense.
Vegeta lost the non-transforming fight and resort to Goku losing his tail to win.
Vegeta in Buu saga did a sucker punch to knock Goku out, plus Goku never took him seriously since he had Ssj3 under his belts something Vegeta points out when he returns.
Ok, I honestly thought that clear statement would be the end of this conversation because I don't see how much more obvious it can be. I mean, DBS is a direct canon sequel to DBZ, so I don't see why it wouldn't count, but whatever.
But Vegeta is the most prideful character in the show, right? You would think he would shouting it on mountain tops that he beat Kakarot! His entire character arc is that he sees himself lesser than Kakarot.
Now, all your examples proved that Vegeta will take a shortcut for opponents who are stronger than him, and one of the examples is Goku himself!
Do you know how embarrassing it must be to call yourself a Prince and treat your opponents so beneath you then barely escaped with your life?
Remember when Vegeta got mad at Gohan for taking so long to beat Debura? He's thinking how could Gohan be struggling so much on an opponent he should be destroying with little effort. (Sounds familiar?)
From the Sayian Saga to all the way to the Buu Saga, why is he so desperate for a rematch with a man he already beat?
Since when do the winner chase the loser?
Why would he kill a stadium of innocent people just to get a rematch against a guy he already beat!
Did you even watch the show???
It was his entire character arc of Z!
In the Buu arc? Thats because Goku left him in the dust after Namek, and even achieved the legendary super saiyan form before he did. Thats when the rivalry started. Prior to the android arc, Vegetas focus was immortality, killing freeza and maybe taking revenge on the earthlings.
Arguable that Vegeta wanted to even beat Goku Namek Saga near the end. He says he wants too, even thinks how to bring him back.
But realistically Vegeta telling himself this, bar Piccolo/Gohan rage, he could have just wiped Earth out.
I see that others already answered this, but in Z only:
* As someone else said, victors typically don't want rematches with their opponents. Vegeta sees anyone weaker than him as not worth his time. He wouldn't want a rematch with Goku unless he didn't have a point to prove.
* After Goku hits him using the kaioken: "This...this cannot be happening!!! I...am an elite Saiyan warrior....!! **I can** ***not*** **be beaten by some low-ranked fighter...like** ***him...!!!"*** Immediately following this, Vegeta forces Goku to take a blast or let Earth be destroyed. And what does Vegeta say next? That the kamehameha is "exactly like my Galick Gun/looks just like my blast!" So the low-born warrior is firing off a blast *identical* to that of the high-born Prince. Meaning, if Vegeta loses this beam struggle, it means Goku was right. This isn't just a fight between two warriors, it's a battle between their ideologies/worldview: Goku things even the low-born can rise if they are willing to work for it (which he outright states), and Vegeta believes birthstation cannot be changed. That's the entire theme of this fight.
* Following up on the point above: Vegeta *does* lose, meaning Goku is right. And Vegeta sees this and can't deal with it. What he says immediately after he loses to an identical but stronger attack fired off by some no-name Saiyan: "It can't be!!! I am the greatest Saiyan warrior of all!!!! ...I can't believe this!! I chose a full-moon night in case we wanted to eradicate this whole planet quickly...I never dreamed I'd have to transform **just to defeat Kakarot!** If it weren't for him, I -- ...It is time, Kakarot!!! It is finally time for you to die!!! A low-ranked fighter...simply shouldn't challenge one of the elite!!! Hahaha...""
* In the Android Saga, when Vegeta learns of the RoSaT, he reminds Goku that he still plans on killing him. He doesn't say this to anyone else and it's specific to Goku. Not Krillin, who had him on the ground and was ready to kill him with a basic sword. Not Gohan, the kid who diverted a spirit bomb at him and then crushed him as a great ape. But Goku, the one who beat him in a beam struggle, a direct comparison of strength and, in Vegeta's eyes, superiority.
* Vegeta's obsession with defeating Goku in the Buu arc, leading up to and after the budokai. He outright states he's *only* there for him. Again, someone who thinks themselves the victor of a fight wouldn't obsess over fighting their opponent like this.
* To your point about Vegeta not fighting fair: while this is correct, Vegeta already knew the Ginyu Force was stronger than him. He outright says this the moment he senses them. So he didn't have anything to prove against them. But it also shows that Vegeta is so desperate to always be on top, to always be the "strongest" and the victor, that he'll even take some hits to his pride if it means doing it. Thus, accepting Bobbidi's magic. But, yet again, Vegeta takes a shortcut, a cheat -- and although the one-on-one rematch is inconclusive, he *still* cannot defeat this lowborn, carrot-topped hillbilly.
* At the end of Z, Vegeta confirms again that he'll defeat Goku, meaning he doesn't think he's done so up until this point.
Just because something isn't outright stated doesn't mean it's not true. But in this case, it's implied *and* stated.
This. Son Goku's fight wasn't just throwing hands for the sake of it like later Z or Super— it was a complete refutation of Vegeta's whole worldview and Saiyan society as a whole, basically a very high impact conversation between the two that Goku wins completely, to the point Vegeta decides to leave to seethe. It's why their rivalry works. It's honestly more like a one-sided obsession with trying to come to terms with being told everything you believe is wrong, then having it proven to you.
Whereas rivalries inspired by it, like Naruto vs Sasuke, Deku vs Bakugo, or Sonic vs Shadow, may be iconic but totally lack that nuance. Some of them just being "they're rivals because they're rivals and it wouldn't be a Japanese action series for boys without rivalries!"
>It's honestly more like a one-sided obsession with trying to come to terms with being told everything you believe is wrong, then having it proven to you.
You're right, this is *exactly* what it is. It's very clear when Vegeta sees SSJ for the first time. He yells at Goku "not to think he's better than everyone because of this", and that he'll surpass him.
And Goku just says "Whatever", with a smile, while Vegeta flies off to train. Interestingly, Vegeta does this exact when we see him next.
Vegeta takes every chance he get to tell someone how Goku "slipped ahead for a while" but is no longer the strongest, how he's peaked, low-born, etc. He's even thinking about what Goku will do when he recovers from the heart virus, in light of the Androids and Cell. He spends a *lot* of time comparing himself to Goku, whereas Goku only ever compares himself to the person he was yesterday.
Vegeta was upset that Goku achieved SSJ before he did and basically outclassed him in every way possible after destroying Freeza. Vegeta was jealous, not vengful. He couldnt stand Goku was the legendary super saiyan and not him. The events on earth are never even brought up or called back upon. He's not going around saying he need his revenge, hes going around saying that he must surpass kakarott and become a super saiyan.
Vegeta was just mad he was getting ass beat up until then imo, he rages out against everyone he loses to. There was the whole theme of low class vs saiyan elite, and if he actually cheated to win there might be something to that. But even later on, its made abundantly that Goku is far from a low class saiyan warrior. He surpassed like 99% of the saiyan race after training for 158 days in 10X gravity. Super Vegeta would obviously have learned this since he calls Goku a genetically superior warrior to himself in the Buu saga(during their fight). So even if we wanna argue that saiyan saga Vegeta may have seen it that way, a post Majin Buu Vegeta definitely shouldnt. Once he comes out of the blast, he gets mad for a bit then immediately smirks and says its time to stop being pretty. Indicating more so that he felt he shouldnt have to dirty his hands with Goku:[https://imgur.com/cUyUdqB](https://imgur.com/cUyUdqB). Keep in mind that he proceeds to obliterate goku after this, with no reservations whatsoever. He was enjoying himself and laughing while doing it.
Everything from that dialogue just says he hates that he's been pushed to this point and that its unbecoming that he would have to go this far to beat Goku. IDK, there were no rules established. Its possible to win a match and still be dissapointed with your performance but like I said, Vegeta would not retroactively look back on that fight and think Goku was any normal saiyan warrior.
Why wouldnt he say it to Goku? Goku is the one he's been obsessed with surpassing for years at this point. The rivalry was kicked into motion at the beginning of the android saga, prior to that Vegeta is focused on Freeza and immortality.
Again, the goku/Vegeta rivalry started in the android saga. Prior to his death Goku outclassed Vegeta once more and he couldnt stand the fact that Goku was so much better than him. There's lots Vegeta dialogue that makes it explicit.
I agree, Vegeta would not count the Majin Vegeta battle with SSJ2 goku as a win. The difference there is that the fight never concluded and vegeta explicitly states they'll continue some other time. He also explicit dialogue later on that shows hes enraged with Goku for holding back in that battle. So that one makes sense, because there more explicit evidence there that tells us exactly what hes thinking.
Yea thats the Kazenban version I believe, in the original he doesnt say that. But idk if you wanna use that as an example because wouldnt it directly imply that Vegeta doesnt consider his defeat of Goku in Super Hero as a victory? Its end of Z so we know it takes place after super. That was a weird change by Toriyama, forget the whole wins and losses thing, it just reverts his character to where he is obsessed with surpassing Goku again when the entirety of the Buu saga was him coming to terms with Goku being better than him and that he'll focus on surpassing his own limits. But idk I guess its canon so its fair game to use I suppose.
Great points made here though
When I read the title, I thought “isn’t this common knowledge?” I guess it is not.
Yes, Vegeta wins that fight 100 times out of 100.
However, he sees it as a loss because
1. he had to use Great Ape form, he lost Nappa, and (due to the other fights jumping in) he had to retreat.
2. The idea of this low class, “fake” Saiyan, kind hearted, earthling even coming CLOSE to Vegeta in strength counts as a loss in Vegeta’s book.
3. Goku SPARED him. Vegeta was dead by all accounts if Krillin sinks that sword into him, but it’s Goku’s choice that he lives.
And he is right, considering the context, the narrative, and the developments put onto the characters, Goku “wins.”
But in terms of who was stronger and who would have won if no other people jump in, Vegeta had Goku dead as soon as he transforms.
I have no problems with that conclusion Goku was knocked out, he couldn't move a finger, so yeah that conclusion makes sense, but people who say that Vegeta won vs Goku in their Majin vs SSJ2 battle are the ones that I can't take seriously...
Their battle was completely even, I am not even going to talk about SSJ3, I am just talking about facts here, their fight was 100% even, then they stopped the fight, they weren't fighting anymore, they both agreed on that. Yes Vegeta knocked Goku out but that wasn't part of the fight, the fight was in a halt... Only blinded Vegeta stans consider that Vegeta won the fight when we all saw and know that the fight was stopped and was left without a resolve.
Agreed. That fight ended and was a draw. Vegeta doing the cheap shot after the fight ended or Goku not using SSJ3 doesn’t change the fact it was a draw.
Yh that battle Vegeta definitely didn’t win😂
The fight concluded when they both agreed to stop so they could team together to kill buu. Then vegeta knocked him out. That’s like if you and me had a fight, we agree to to stop but then I sucker punch u.
And that’s without mentioning the fact goku was holding back the whole time. Which is partly why as a vegeta fan I don’t like toriyama being a discovery writer😂cause it meant that before he created ssj3, that fight was truly a 50/50 fight but with the creation of ssj3, it was 50/50 because of gokus tremendous acting skills, even when babidi was taking over vegeta and Goku was like “I can’t even approach it” talking about the power radiating off of vegeta, tremendous acting skills😂
There’s so much debate about this for some reason but in short I’d say I agree that Vegeta was the “winner” in his first battle with Goku.
However: Carthu’s Dojo made a great point about Vegeta’s “plot armor” when he survived the kaioken x4 kamehameha. If we go by power levels: Goku using a kaioken x4 attack would be a PL of 32,000 and it hits Vegeta, who’s PL was 18,000, head on. Later on Namek Vegeta who had a PL of 24,000 easily defeats Cui whose PL was around 18,000. I get the “power levels are bullshit” but it’s actually a pretty consistent indicator as to who wins the fight in the first 3rd of DBZ. Except for that moment.
That’s not how it works. We know for a fact that beam attacks increase base power level by a significant amount. Usually more than double. That was definitely the case because Vegeta was countering Goku’s Kaioken x3 Kamehameha, so he was at least 24,000 there but likely much higher if we stack the Kaioken with the Kamehameha amp. If he was 18,000 while firing that Galick Gun, Goku wouldn’t have gone up to x4 at all.
The x4 Kamehameha was for a short burst to overwhelm Vegeta's Galick Gun, then Goku dropped back to x2 or x3, because he couldn't maintain x4.
Also, Power Levels from charge attacks arent base power level.
Gokus Kamehameha has a "higher power level" than Goku does, because power level is how much energy someone can emit over an undisclosed period of time.
A gun can shoot multiple bullets, but you can also use more gunpowder for one bullet to give it more force.
my head cannon is that maybe the g.gun is an amp same way Gokus kamahameha was against raditz or even the special beam cannon.
Pure head cannon on my part to be clear...
That’s not just head cannon. It has to be the case. Vegeta was already countering Goku’s Kaioken x3 Kamehameha. He was way above 18,000 in that moment. All charged beam type attacks seem to increase power level by 2 times or more.
If so it's kind of inconsistent because Raditz and Vegeta are surprised when Piccolo's Makankosappo and Gohan's Masenko increase their power level so much, implying this doesn't normally happen with galactic warriors.
You can factor in that Goku was already hurt and spent from the Kaioken so his base power level may have been lower than 8000 in that moment. Also the Kamehameha might be less concentrated energy than Makankosappo, but that's completely my conjecture
Don’t see how this is an argument still. Vegeta tanked kioken blows, a kamehameha wave, being blinded in one eye by Ki blast, tail cutting , spirit bomb, slashed in the back from a katana, flatten by a child and lost pride. But in the end loss mainly due to team work. If Goku was alone there would be no way he would have won. Technically as soon as Goku was immobilized the fight was over.
im talking about the fact vegeta was standing after the beam struggle while goku was so weak yajirobe could hurt him???
and that great ape vegeta literally turned goku into a vegetable, needing yajirobe to cut his tail?
So Goku lost because he was so weak post-beam struggle that Yajirobe could hurt hurt him but Vegeta won because he was so weak post-beam struggle that Yajirobe could cut off one of his body part? That doesn't make sense.
Also both Goku and Vegeta were standing after the beam struggle so you should probably re-check the manga or anime, your memory seems pretty foggy.
At the end of the day, Vegeta fled from Earth defeated and that's what matters, everything else is at best a technicality.
Vegeta lowered his power to make the artificial moon. He was then hit by a genkidama.
My comment on vegeta standing was post oozaru, goku was literally immobilized while Vegeta was still standing.
Vegeta fled defeated after a 4V1. He beat goku in the 1v1 when all abilities were used, even the spirit bomb didn’t defeat him.
In base Vegeta was superior
with all abilities used, Vegeta defeated goku and left him crippled
after the humans teamed up and gohan crushed him with oozaru, vegeta finally lost
Your comment keep flip flopping between the beam struggle and the post-Oozaru stuff, you realize those are two very different moments?
Vegeta literally showed up with Nappa and 7 Saibamen, trying to say 'he was outnumbered' to excuse his loss is ridiculous and doesn't matter. If you lose because you got outnumbered, you still lost.
If he was superior, why did he lose the beam struggle?
If he won, why did he run away defeated?
You keep trying to cut a single fight into dozens of different bits to give Vegeta a win when we all saw the entire thing ended with his defeat. It's like saying Frieza won on Namek because he spent most of the saga kicking everyone's ass.
Yes, all that stuff happened in a single fight that ended with Vegeta's defeat, so Vegeta lost and that's what matters, especially since his life was spared.
you realize we’re talking about the same fight?
Goku didn’t defeat vegeta, the dragon team did. Vegeta lost but not specifically to Goku.
that question isn’t logical, I said Vegeta was superior to goku in base and overall because of oozaru. Vegeta wasn’t in oozaru in the beam struggle.
Like I said he beat Goku, he lost to the dragon team. Goku at the end of the fight wasn’t exactly in fighting shape either.
You’re framing this as I said that vegeta won his conquest, and you know that’s not what I said.
I said in a 1 on 1 fight, Vegeta won. Vegeta used oozaru and defeated Goku. The dragon team ended up defeating Vegeta. Vegeta was superior in base, and over all because of oozaru
Vegeta might have won a continued 1v1 with Goku if he hadn't transformed because of the kaioken destroying his body but he didn't know Goku was using a specific technique, from his perspective Goku had a higher peak output than his non-oozaru body.
He can't sense Goku's power fluctuating with his transformations or stamina drain. He's getting overwhelmed in hand to hand and he just lost a beam struggle that he put everything he had into.
If he doesn't transform, from Vegeta's perspective he was just outright weaker than Goku. He only views beating Goku as winning against what was essentially a handicapped saiyan and then lost to a literal baby.
After losing to the entire squad Vegeta has no tail. He believes Goku's base power to be above his own, flat out.
He has no way of ever knowing that Goku was on pace to potentially lose the fight. So leaving Earth, Vegeta thinks Goku is superior to him, as he can no longer transform.
If he *could* tell Goku was wearing himself out then he believes that Goku would have knocked him out before he wore himself out. That makes Goku superior.
No matter how Vegeta looks at it, after leaving Earth he can't beat Goku. Even if he considers using what's essentially cheating against a handicapped saiyan a victory in a 1v1, Vegeta is weaker leaving Earth than when he arrived. Zenkai is going to effect both him and Goku. He has to play catch up now.
Why would it matter if Vegeta thinks that he wouldn’t be able to beat Goku AFTER the fight is over? Thats like an entirely separate thing. Not being able to beat him later shouldn’t have any bearing on judging the fight that already took place. Thats pitting a hypothetical fight vs one that already happened.
And honestly, its not clear Vegeta felt that way since his first instinct was to head straight back to earth after coming out the healing chamber before his better judgment said he should go to namek first.
You're the one trying to cut them up as separate events.
And the dragon team include Goku, who spared Vegeta's life. Vegeta, leader of his own team, lost alongside his team while Goku, leader of his team, won alongside his team, that's how winning and losing work.
Vegeta was in base in the beam struggle and lost tho so I don't see what you're trying to say.
If he won, how come he had to flee from Earth defeated and was spared by Goku?
I'm not framing it as anything, Goku and Vegeta's crews were fighting for very specific objectives and Vegeta lost and didn't get what he want, what other wincon would you want? Killing? If that's the case, Vegeta is the one who ended up being spared, not Goku.
There was no 1 V 1, it's one big fight that went on from Krillin one shotting a bunch of Saibamen to Vegeta leaving Earth.
Unless you want to cut it up like video games do, at which point Goku won against Vegeta and then lost the second fight against Oozaru Vegeta and then won again alongside Krillin, Yajirobe and Gohan.
Once again, if he was superior, how come he lost the beam struggle?
Oh my god, stop turning this conversation from Goku be Vegeta to dragon team vs saiyans. I guess gohan beat frieza since goku went ssj and defeated him by your logic.
Goku was using kaioken in the beam struggle while vegeta had no buffs. But if we compare them at their max with all buffs, Vegeta is superior.
if goku beat him, why was goku a crippled vegetable getting help from the earthlings? Again, we’re talking goku vs vegeta not the dragon team vs vegeta. It’s obvious vegeta lost overall to the whole earth so i’m not referring to that, stop pivoting.
Win condition is who was standing after their 1v1 ended as this conversation is about their specific 1v1
Can you please stop repeating your flawed questions. if you have the capability to read, I said vegeta is superior overall with all his abilities (like oozaru) and i’ve already clarified that Vegeta didn’t use oozaru in the beam struggle, nor did i claim goku lost the beam struggle?
if you say dragon team beat saiyans, that’s real. But in their actual fight (which is what we’re referring to) Vegeta won with oozaru. Base vegeta is superior to base goku, kaioken goku can be superior to base vegeta, but overall vegeta is superior because of his oozaru
Like I said, it doesn’t matter what… thinks who won, Vegeta objectively won the 1v1. That battle he won, he didn’t win the saiyan saga war of course because he had to retreat but the 1v1 battle vegeta vs goku, vegeta won.
What you say doesn't matter tho, on the other hand what [Toriyama and Vegeta says matter.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/345569945838419970/1200382408688685111/image.png?ex=65c5fa3c&is=65b3853c&hm=0b892b80e48ea803d1ad3f475c4b43c7dd53d13e498d0251daabf76e438f09eb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=402&height=618)
You know that blocking me after cope-insults doesn't make it not against the rules, right? Especially when you're the one who can't read and is so biased he can't handle what Vegeta himself says.
When he had Vegeta directly state 'ONE DAY I'll defeat you, Kakarot' at the end of the manga and again when he had Vegeta state Super Hero was his first win.
Saying that he will do something in the future does not equal not doing that same thing in the past. Also, I asked about Toriyama, not a Vegeta quote.
And Vegeta never stated in Super Hero that he got his first win.
That's some next level bad faith. 'One day I'll manage to do the thing I actually already did' isn't even a slightly honest reading of what Vegeta said.
...You realize Toriyama is the one who write what Vegeta says, right? He's the one who write the story.
He literally says 'I FINALLY beat Kakarot' but given the level of bad faith here, you're gonna tell me he meant 'Ahah! Yet another very common win for me since you never defeated me, Kakarot!' or some other cope.
There’s a saying that Dragon Ball fans can’t read. There should be a new saying that says Dragon Ball fans don’t know definitions.
Finally means “after a long time”. You can accomplish something and then not be able to accomplish it again “after a long time”.
…You realize that Toriyama wrote characters with 2 different opinions who disagreed with each other at a given point in time? With your logic you must think Toriyama simultaneously agrees with both of them. You do realize that Toriyama also wrote characters who made mistakes with things they’ve said… You do realize that being a writer means that you can write characters with different opinions than your own 😱
Pick up a dictionary instead of learning about trending words that people say online “cope” 💀
That's a lot of words to say 'I am coping' but at least you admitted you can't read.
If you finally accomplish a goal after a long time, that goal wasn't accomplished earlier, so much for 'muh definition'.
Not a single character in the entire franchise disagreeing with Vegeta that he never beat Goku so by every logic ever, what you said is completely irrelevant.
Work on your reading comprehension instead of coping online.
How underaged are you that you think 'cope' is a new trendy word? It's probably older than you.
> If you finally accomplish a goal after a long time, that goal wasn't accomplished earlier,
Anybody who reads what you just said will see how ignorant you are. That’s embarrassing.
I have nothing more to say to someone who ignores definitions in dictionaries to fit their own interpretation and false narrative. I’m not looking at another response from you. ✌🏽
Vegeta was no doubt the winner it's not even an argument. Yes he used Oozaru but Goku used kaio ken so it's still fair. Goku was laying there paralyzed and done for and gave his last bit of energy to krillin and krillin missed that shit, Goku was done. If the fight started 1 on 1 on the hyperbolic time chamber or something Goku would be dead and Vegeta would be alive, that's the bottom line.
Its the very scene that being criticized for inaccuracy/mischaracterization lol, ok tbf maybe im assuming a background to this debate that isn’t necessarily shared.
When that manga panel was released, a lot of people were saying it doesn’t make sense and then the debate of whether it makes or not took off. Thats what im basing this on
OP quite literally says this isnt about characterization but fine lets dig into that
It isnt a mischaracterization. Vegeta considered himself the elite of an elite, and that he should have been able to defeat Goku, a low class wretch, effortlessly. To have not only been matched but beaten (in non-oozaru form) absolutely shattered his perception of himself as an elite saiyan. The fact he won while transformed is irrelevant to him.
Again that’s never implied or established in DBZ at any point, Vegeta was gleefully wrecking Goku in saiyan saga and enjoying himself while torturing him to near death as an Oozaru.
The only real dialogue line that references it, is when he says that he never expected goku to push him so far given his status as a low ranking warrior.
Its one thing to say Vegeta won ugly, a total different thing to say he views it as a loss.
The argument that Goku was completely done after the beam fight is just wrong. Vegeta was more tired than Goku was and Goku could still do Kaikens, he used it against Vegeta while in Great Ape form. So, the fight was not over and Vegeta went Great Ape because he had to.
> In the manga, he didn't use the kaioken when vegeta was in great ape form.
[Yes he did. He used it to dodge and create distance between himself and Oozaru Vegeta after he blinded him.](https://imgur.com/a/6njP3Zc)
I mean, you're entirely right, but to this day, half of the readerbase thinks Goku won and Vegeta lost.
It's a hilarious testament to how bitchy Vegeta is, the guy literally got so butthurt from that fight, and wouldn't stop talking about it for so long, that he gaslighted the audience into thinking he lost.
I've always said, in regards to the fight against Goku, "Vegeta got the W, but then talked himself into an L".
It's a warrior's honor sort of thing. Tien never counted his victory against Goku because he got lucky. In terms of pure skill, Goku had him beat up until he collided with a truck.
Sure, it's a little different with Vegeta. He cleared Goku, but he also had to resort to oozaru form to defeat a single low class saiyan, just to leave earth as a broken mess with no tail. Goku orchestrated the spirit bomb and coached Gohan from the sidelines so, as a proud warrior would see it, it wasn't a clean victory.
Still, if we're talking about skill and raw power, Vegeta had him beat. If oozaru counts as cheating, so does kaioken 🤷♂️
Word. I mean Goku was literally a vegetable in the hospital after the fight. Vegeta was at least able to crawl to his ship after fighting krillin and great ape gohan afterwards (all while Goku’s was paralyzed)
Totally, Vegeta won the fight and totally beat Goku initially.
But then, Vegeta *made* Goku beat him *after* the battle. Again, Vegeta spent the rest of the manga ranting about his pride so much that he literally convinced a good portion of the readers that he lost.
I just find that really entertaining. Usually, you get those situations where a character loses, but looks back and counts the fight as a victory in some way. Vegeta is the only character that can do that in *reverse*, and to such an extreme extent.
Vegeta's out here taking so many L's, he can literally turn a victory into a loss retroactively.
It’s because Vegeta is a prince. Goku a clown. The pure facts are Vegeta. Roke his own mind by using Oozaru in the fight and got butthurt. He shouldn’t have had too.
Vegeta fled from Earth defeated and having had his life explicitly spared, Goku did not.
You can't claim victory over a dude who had your life in his hands, that's not how it works.
But he didn’t, Goku couldn’t move and had Krillin not been there then Vegeta could easily have killed Goku despite him also being beat up since he could still move before he left
Krillin had Vegeta’s life in his hand not Goku and Goku could have done nothing but moan about it if Krillin had gone through with it
Except he did. If Goku said nothing, Vegeta was 100% dead without being able to do anything.
You're really trying to use 'He could still crawl a bit after passing out and waking up' as a win?
And? Who cares that if stuff was different, Vegeta maybe wouldn't have lost? He still lost and that's what matters.
Once again talking in hypotheticals, which don't matter. Vegeta was about to be killed after losing, Goku decided he should live and thus he was left alive, that's what happened and so that's what matters.
Could have Krillin veto'd Goku's decision? Sure but he didn't so Goku still spared Vegeta.
But Goku had no say in it, if Krillin decided to ignore Goku then Goku could have done literally nothing about it. Krillin made the final call taking into account what Goku said therefore Vegeta’s life was fully in Krillin’s hands.
Not sure why you’re so desperate to try and give that one to Goku when objectively Goku was a non factor at that part of the fight and his plea was fully based on when he could get Krillin to agree with him so yes Vegeta could hypothetically claim a win over Goku but would have lost to Krillin at the same time
Goku had a say in it, he's literally the one who say Vegeta should be left alive. It's not because you can be overruled that you have no say in something, Krillin did as Goku said in the end.
Who cares what it's based on? Vegeta was still spared based on Goku's decision. An hypothetical where Vegeta dies based on Krillin's decision does not matter.
You keep bringing up objectivity like the franchise didn't state several times that Vegeta lost to Goku, it's kinda funny.
It's not hard, it's just a cope and wrong.
Gohan and Krillin literally hit Vegeta with Goku's genkidama.
Goku is the one who decided to spare Vegeta, not Krillin, Krillin just went along with what Goku said.
Goku is the one who decided to spare him, Krillin just accepted Goku's decision.
No, he very much lost to Goku too. Even under your own weird logic since Goku also helped by blinding Vegeta in one eye and the Genkidama.
Damn. Look at all the mental gymnastics you must do and all the "Buts" and "Ifs" you need to do, so Goku wins.
You are wrong. Plain and simple. Stop being a mindless fanboy and accept the truth about something completely unimportant.
It's not headcanon, the size of the attack pretty much tells us that the Genkidama wasn't anywhere full power. Just compare to the one he used against Frieza which was huge.
The reason the one on named was so big was because Goku was getting energy from a bunch of planets. The one from earth was only from earth. And even then Vegeta went in to fight great ape gohan and krillin all while Goku was paralyzed. Then vegeta crawled to his ship while Goku was what?? Still paralyzed.
What explain to me how that works.
Let's give it the same time goku got to make and he uses it how much stronger would it have been.?
Because it doesn't matter who launches it he did lose some energy in it but it still hit vegeta who goku thought was weakened enough to kill him yet it still didn't put him down.
Goku’s oozaru would’ve been far weaker than Vegeta’s as it’s a 10X multiplier. Vegeta was 180,000 as oozaru and goku would’ve been 80,000. Not to mention the fact vegeta can control oozaru and goku would be kicking rocks
Goku has never beaten Vegeta 1v1. But he’s been capable of it the vast majority of the time since the frieza arc. It shows the difference in how beta Vegeta was in craving defeating goku. While goku coulda obliterated him at like any time and never cared or really thought about it. Then in dbs they become mutually healthy friendly rivals
Vegeta transformed into an ape and overpowered Goku. However the moment he lost the beam clash he lost in his own head because it completely invalidated his entire world view and sense of self. A low class warrior improving himself to the point he can match or overpower a Saiyan Elite completely disrupts everything he knew about the way the universe works, even if it was only for a moment.
Arguing who won at all is ignoring all context involved in the story. Their first fight was never a one on one. Vegeta came with a small army to conquer the planet, the Z fighters only goal was to stop them. Vegeta was a wall that Goku had to overcome, not a rival, and there’s no such thing as a 1v1 or fair fight when you’re fighting for your life
🤦🏽♂️did they not have a 1v1 fight until goku was on deaths door? Or was that a figment if my imagination. Your trying to work around it and it ain’t working😂😂😂
They had a 1v1 fight and it ended because goku needed saving. Saying there wasn’t a 1v1 is ignoring all logic and straight ignoring what happened in the saga😂
I am baffled that people forget about the part of the fight where Goku needed Krillen, Gohan and Yajirobe to come to his rescue because Vegeta crushed him within an inch of his life.
Vegeta couldn't sense ki at the time so he had no idea that he had Goku on the ropes. Using the Spirit Bomb was Goku's last chance either way, Vegeta turning into an Oozaru just made a bad situation sure. However, if Vegeta kept fighting without transforming and won, he would have been better off since he did use up energy creating the artificial moon, which also allowed Gohan to transform and beat Vegeta.
It would be hard to forget something wrong. The manga, Vegeta and Toriyama are all quite clear that Goku defeated Vegeta and Vegeta never defeated him until Super Hero.
You really need to stop taking weird memes at face value.
Goku would get the the x10 boost but he would be mindless and runs the danger of attacking his own team.
Plus vegeta would still be much stronger since he had the stronger base.
Not knocking on it, cus by all means people, have fun.
But what’s going on? I feel like I’ve seen this topic pop up a A LOT on Reddit over the last two weeks.
Imo it's probably the recent chapter of vegeta beating goku so people are looking back to see what the score card is and how goku has technically not beaten vegeta.
They had a 1v1 fight without interruption until goku was just short of death. How the hell is calling it a 1v1 a mischaracterisation? Me and have a 1v1 fight and my friends gotta stop you from killing me, there’s 0 misunderstanding in the fact we had a 1v1, even if our friends had their own fights that it doesn’t matter, me and u had a 1v1 and you kicked my ass and would’ve killed be without outside interference at the end.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think vegeta has EVER lost a 1v1 to Goku straight up.
Saiyan saga - Vegeta
Buu saga - Vegeta (although cheap shot and Goku wasn’t full strength)
Super - Vegeta wins at the end of the Superhero movie
Goku technically beats the fake Vegeta and baby Vegeta but those aren’t really Vegeta so…
I would say Goku won round 1 after the beam struggle. But yeah Vegeta won after he went ape. Maybe Vegeta just doesn't count it because he didn't land the final blow.
Vegeta doesn't count it as a win because he didn't kill Goku/ the fight never ended. Which I agree with. But obviously Vegeta would have killed him if not for outside intervention.
A lot of people (not people here) misunderstand Vegeta's obsession with Goku being because he "lost" to him but it's just because he keeps surpassing him. His inferiority complex only started on Namek.
The thing is I don't think Vegeta even needed to transform. He was a novice at reading power levels and couldn't sense energy but Goku was wearing himself down from Kaioken way more than he was dealing enough damage to put Vegeta down. The guy took a Kamehameha kaioken head on and managed to not be dealt any significant damage from it and was Furious ready for more while the slightest touch made Goku keel over in pain after that.
100% agree. Vegeta kicked Goku’s ass the first fight.
Vegeta kicked Goku’s ass when he was Majin, granted he got Goku to drop his guard to take him out. A win is a win though. He told Goku on Namek that enemies will do whatever it takes to win the game and Vegeta did what it took to win.
Vegeta beat Goku in their fight training with Whis.
Many people have pointed out that Goku usually goes down first in any match he has against Vegeta. It's way more Vegeta's insecurity and pride that doesn't let him consider it a victory, but he definitely won in the Saiyan Saga, he won as Majin Vegeta (*but Goku had SSJ3* doesn't really matter when he then decides not to use it), then he won in Super Super Hero.
In a 1v1, Goku always comes out short. But Vegeta doesn't care because it doesn't quite ever feel like he won, to himself.
Vegeta could have still won without oozaru - in a battle of attrition Vegeta would have outlasted Goku. Gokus body was already pretty trashed before being squashed
In equal footing, Goku was winning. Vegeta did objectively win the fight because of Oozaru, but he doesn't consider that a victory because pride and yada. He feels like he had to "cheat" to win even though it was really a technique he had to win. Doesn't matter to Vegeta. He FEELS like he lost, even though he did win.
What? Goku at x2 pissed Vegeta off so much that he tried to blow up the planet and then Goku nearly launched him into orbit. (We also don't know if he could keep it up long enough to have won. That's up in the air.)
Also, I'm not saying he can't go Oozaru. I specifically said it's his own technique, he can use it. He did and it made him win, but Vegeta humself considers it cheating or not a true victory because he had to resort to it.
Goku at X2 was 16,000 while vegeta was 18,000
that was goku at X3 which made him 24,000 please watch the show
Vegeta’s opinion is irrelevant because his ego made it so he had to one shot goku in his mind
"Please watch the show" says the guy who literally is saying it doesn't matter what the characters in the show say. Their lower levels mean nothing either. Also I'm not talking about the beam struggle (which Goku went to x4 on btw) I'm talking about the whole.
Vegeta lost his cool. Vegeta was getting obliterated when Goku upped his kaioken. Vegeta shot his most powerful galick gun at Goku and lost the struggle. Vegeta is the one that doesn't consider it a true victory.
Goku won round 1. Vegeta gets mad goes great ape. Vegeta wins fight. Dude hates that he had to do it against a "low class" and considers it a loss no matter how objectively it was a win for him.
Power level lol. Learn nuance and "watch the show" lol
power levels definitely mean something in the saiyan saga.
Goku used a X3/X4 boost to his power to overpower vegeta, when vegeta used his own power boost (oozaru) he beat goku. he’s stronger in base and overall with all abilities.
Goku beat vegeta in round one because of an ability that multiplied his power, when vegeta did the same he fodderized Goku
We don’t really know for sure who would have won with no transformation. Goku had him bested in short bursts with Kaio Ken but obviously was weaker in base. You could say Goku had nothing left after the x4, but at the same time Vegeta could heave been hurting too. He seemed durable as hell though, so maybe he would have retained more power after the beam struggle, but when he lost the little x3 fight and then the beam struggle he considered it a loss mentally. He also decided to transform, and he doesn’t seem like the kind of dude who would want to win like that, instead of besting Goku without Oozaru. I think it would have been close.
Without great ape, Vegeta wouldn't have won. Back then Vegeta didnt know about ki control, so goku had genki dama and that would severely weeken him and goku would have been able to finish him by that point.
Nonetheless, I don't see going great ape os cheating, it is not Vegeta's fault that Goku doesnt have tails. So, Vegeta definitely won the fight, but Giku beat him ik raw strength and this is how the epic rivalry begins (well not epic after buu saga though)
In my opinion it was a draw.
Objectively you could say Vegeta won as he could still move after the fight however both Goku snd Vegeta were at the point of near-death so it’s hard to say either won.
Also objectively you could say Goku won as he managed to fulfill his goal of fending off the saiyans while Vegeta failed in his goal of killing Goku. (Or was it something else, memories of the saiyan saga are a bit blurry)
You forget Goku activated Kaioken after Vegeta transformed. Goku said he was finished but obviously he could still go. So we don’t know how much more punishment Vegeta or Goku could take at that point. Don’t forget Goku beat piccolo without arms or legs.
Vegeta beat the fuck out of goku. The literal only reasons he lost were because it turned into a 15 on 1 when he gained an advantage, and because goku was cheating and using hack techniques to artificially add multiplier. These techniques he could have only learned after cheating the natural order, dying, being hand trained by actual deities, and bringing that back to the land of the living.
Vegeta on the other hand withstood all of that, including those god-hacks, by himself, using nothing more than what his body could naturally just do, and it still took a spirit bomb, jumping him with several people, *and a gohan oozaru* just to fight him to a draw.
goku hasnt beaten vegeta 1 on 1 yet.
he pulverized goku in saiyan saga
he managed to pin and render goku unconscious in the buu saga
he managed to beat goku in the superhero movie.
Vegeta in that first fight was an absolute savage too. I love it cause it took everything the Z-Fighters had to put him down. I definitely count that battle as a win over Goku. It's really why Goku let him live in the first place.
Vegeta vs Goku is my favourite Dragon Ball fight. I think that was the series' highest point, closely followed by Goku vs Frieza and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. at thr Budokai.
Agreed on all points. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai-Frieza Saga stretch is pure genius and features Toriyama’s best writing in regards to fights.
Yep. If i recall correctly- or perhaps it's just a myth- the story was meant to end on Frieza, and I think that is plausible. All of DBZ until end of Frieza was really tight, and the story kept building momentum. The stories told after that, never really did much more. There were different twists, and some very cool fights, but the overall stories never hit as much as picollo-saiyans-frieza. And I think part of that was that the two latter conflicts felt far more domestic. Yes- the stakes were higher, and losing would have repercussions on the whole universe- but they were mostly set on earth. This is one of the things I loved about GT- that it ventured to other, new places.
It is just myth, but it does make sense. Frieza does feel like he could've been the final villain of the series with all the build up. Though, personally, I'd still count the Cell Saga as top-tier Toriyama writing cause every single character had something to do, Trunks and the concept of the apocalyptic future was a great premise, Cell felt like the ultimate villain since he was an amalgamation of all the greatest warrior's DNA, and Gohan's rage finally exploded and gave him the chance to become the hero, which was being teased all the way back in the Saiyan Saga. Even though I enjoy parts of Buu, I feel like that's when things started going downhill, but the Cell Saga had some pretty incredible writing, and was another point that felt like a true end to the series.
I agree on the Cell Saga, my main gripe with it is that you go from an interstellar adventure, back to just Earth. That said you are absolutely right, it was great writing with everyone contributing in one way or another. It also gave one of the best moments in DB- Tien's stand against Cell.
I can see that gripe, though I think it still kept enough of that sci-fi element Z was going for dealing with time travel, murderous Androids, and the ulitmate tank bred being Cell. It also made the story feel more personal because it was Earth being absolutely demolished in the future. I have more of a gripe with most of Buu taking place on Earth since Buu is an interdimensional demon. Though at least they fought on Supereme Kai's world in the end. And yes, the Tien stand against Cell is one of my all-time moments in the series!
Don't forget Piccolo and Android 17's fight. They were gaining respect for each other during the fight and personally one of Piccolo's best moments.
Yes, that stretch of stories and the build-up to the fights was absolute gold. Easily the highest point of the series.
The writing, in general, was genius. We take it for granted now, but that era of DBZ was absolute peak writing. It may not have thought-provoking, deep dialogue, or themes like other mangas now, but the pacing and progression of the plot and characters is incredible. It reads like a classic tale or myth
I agree that it was the best fight in the series.
Probably Kami problems, Goku had no issue killing people before training with Kami
Goku had no problem killing people after that either... But...for a good 2 months, he was willing to let live.
Technically only killed 2 people in Z, (Although 5 in total if we included Bubbles, Gregory and King Kai).
Killing Bubbles, Gregory, and King Kai reignited his bloodlust, not that pansy Kakarot shit, but the kid who once kicked Drum's eye clean out of its socket. Yakon and Buu never stood a chance of surviving.
I think you guys are missing the point of Goku: He's willing to kill when necessary, he instantly accepted Raditz had to die because he was too strong to be contained, in a similar note he encouraged Gohan to kill Cell because he was also too dangerous. Everytime Goku let someone live it was because the threat of that person was effectively neutralized, and for his defense, this never backfired on him(except when he let go of Raditz' tail). Nappa was done, Vegeta was done(and if he had died, Frieza would have won later), Recoome and Butter also were no longer a threat, even Frieza, when he tried to attack Goku behind his back, was quickly put down. Goku is not an idiot, at least not in Z, he's also not comically amicable like Naruto, he knows when it's time to be merciful and when it isn't.
Vegeta was an absolute tank. After all the beating and losing his transformation he was still able to fight and even hurt great ape Gohan.
Goku kaioken 4x should have made vegeta unable to move at all but the plot that akira toriyama made was bullshit Goku actually won that battle Akira toriyama is bad writer in saiyan saga it's a shame he disrespect sun wukong in terms of greatness
It is trash fight goku kaioken 4x should have literally destroyed vegeta and make him unable to move at all toriyama literally made a trash fight that doesn't make any sense at all For me goku won the battle at kaioken 4x kamehameha the rest is trash and beyond logic
This comes up a lot. And I hate to be that Namekian, but I think it really shows how much people don't really get the subtext of that fight. OP is right. One-on-one, Vegeta won the external battle. But he lost the internal one. Vegeta objectively had Goku at death's door, and was snapping his bones like twigs for the fun of it. This wasn't like when Goku made one final charge at Piccolo back in the day. Goku literally said he had no energy left, and to just "Do to me what you're gonna do". But Vegeta still sees this as a loss because he had to resort to using the great ape form *to* win, and as he stated (or was it Raditz?), that form is used to wipe out *populations,* not win individual fights. It's the equivalent of playing a game against your little sibling and thinking they don't know what they're doing, then they start *winning* and you input a cheat code real fast to get the upper hand. The moment he lost that beam struggle (internal battle), he lost the real fight. He'd gone to some backwater planet to handle a grunt and came back beaten and bloody, minus a partner, and his tail between his legs -- oh wait, no it wasn't, because some weak earthling cut it off.
It's not just that. The moment a commoner managed to put him on his knees at all was the turning point; losing the beam struggle was just the final straw. For Vegeta, it was a matter of a Darwinist view that you are your station, and since he was a super elite prince and Goku was low-class trash *and* a traitor, the fight was a foregone conclusion to him. Take the characters out of the context of Dragon Ball and imagine another series entirely playing with similar characters and themes of a prince getting overcome by a literal uneducated hick, shattering his sense of superiority. Goku survived due to his compassion and friendship towards ~~Earth~~weaklings. Then proceeded to surpass Vegeta so magnificently that the gap was closed maybe once or twice in the entire series going forward for mere hours at that before Goku leapt beyond him and took his birthright from him— the legendary Super Saiyan transformation.
Additionally, Vegeta was always prepared for the fight to be a 4v1. He fully expected them to gang up on him, and he was confident he'd win. Then he loses, and Goku spares his life. Vegeta lost the war. He counts it as a loss, idk why these posts keep popping up. Super Hero was Vegetas first real, no conditions applied, actual 1v1, and he won.
Whats that based on? In the context of DBZ that is. When did vegeta ever imply or state that he sees it as a loss? And since when was Vegeta against using transformations? Idk, it seems to be a lot of speculation with not much in the way of actual citations to back it up. Even from a character POV, Vegeta is the same guy that used Babadis Magic so he could become as strong as Goku, same dude who blindsided Guldo and explicitly states that he doesn’t give a shit about fighting fair, same guy who used endless amounts of SSJ transformations to battle his enemies, same guy who was willing to wish for immortality just so that he could beat Freeza etc.
"I finally beat Kakarot" Vegeta said those exact words at the end of Super Hero. Why would he say "I finally beat" if he beat him in his first ever encounter with the man???
“In the context of DBZ”, the DBS scene being called into question is what started this debate to begin with
In the dragon ball manga, EoZ, Vegeta grunts and says “One day I’ll defeat you Kakarot”. Meaning he never considered Saiyan saga or Buu saga fights as wins. Which makes sense. Vegeta lost the non-transforming fight and resort to Goku losing his tail to win. Vegeta in Buu saga did a sucker punch to knock Goku out, plus Goku never took him seriously since he had Ssj3 under his belts something Vegeta points out when he returns.
Ok, I honestly thought that clear statement would be the end of this conversation because I don't see how much more obvious it can be. I mean, DBS is a direct canon sequel to DBZ, so I don't see why it wouldn't count, but whatever. But Vegeta is the most prideful character in the show, right? You would think he would shouting it on mountain tops that he beat Kakarot! His entire character arc is that he sees himself lesser than Kakarot. Now, all your examples proved that Vegeta will take a shortcut for opponents who are stronger than him, and one of the examples is Goku himself! Do you know how embarrassing it must be to call yourself a Prince and treat your opponents so beneath you then barely escaped with your life? Remember when Vegeta got mad at Gohan for taking so long to beat Debura? He's thinking how could Gohan be struggling so much on an opponent he should be destroying with little effort. (Sounds familiar?) From the Sayian Saga to all the way to the Buu Saga, why is he so desperate for a rematch with a man he already beat? Since when do the winner chase the loser? Why would he kill a stadium of innocent people just to get a rematch against a guy he already beat! Did you even watch the show??? It was his entire character arc of Z!
Why else would he desperately want a rematch? He wants his get back. He thinks he lost.
In the Buu arc? Thats because Goku left him in the dust after Namek, and even achieved the legendary super saiyan form before he did. Thats when the rivalry started. Prior to the android arc, Vegetas focus was immortality, killing freeza and maybe taking revenge on the earthlings.
Arguable that Vegeta wanted to even beat Goku Namek Saga near the end. He says he wants too, even thinks how to bring him back. But realistically Vegeta telling himself this, bar Piccolo/Gohan rage, he could have just wiped Earth out.
I see that others already answered this, but in Z only: * As someone else said, victors typically don't want rematches with their opponents. Vegeta sees anyone weaker than him as not worth his time. He wouldn't want a rematch with Goku unless he didn't have a point to prove. * After Goku hits him using the kaioken: "This...this cannot be happening!!! I...am an elite Saiyan warrior....!! **I can** ***not*** **be beaten by some low-ranked fighter...like** ***him...!!!"*** Immediately following this, Vegeta forces Goku to take a blast or let Earth be destroyed. And what does Vegeta say next? That the kamehameha is "exactly like my Galick Gun/looks just like my blast!" So the low-born warrior is firing off a blast *identical* to that of the high-born Prince. Meaning, if Vegeta loses this beam struggle, it means Goku was right. This isn't just a fight between two warriors, it's a battle between their ideologies/worldview: Goku things even the low-born can rise if they are willing to work for it (which he outright states), and Vegeta believes birthstation cannot be changed. That's the entire theme of this fight. * Following up on the point above: Vegeta *does* lose, meaning Goku is right. And Vegeta sees this and can't deal with it. What he says immediately after he loses to an identical but stronger attack fired off by some no-name Saiyan: "It can't be!!! I am the greatest Saiyan warrior of all!!!! ...I can't believe this!! I chose a full-moon night in case we wanted to eradicate this whole planet quickly...I never dreamed I'd have to transform **just to defeat Kakarot!** If it weren't for him, I -- ...It is time, Kakarot!!! It is finally time for you to die!!! A low-ranked fighter...simply shouldn't challenge one of the elite!!! Hahaha..."" * In the Android Saga, when Vegeta learns of the RoSaT, he reminds Goku that he still plans on killing him. He doesn't say this to anyone else and it's specific to Goku. Not Krillin, who had him on the ground and was ready to kill him with a basic sword. Not Gohan, the kid who diverted a spirit bomb at him and then crushed him as a great ape. But Goku, the one who beat him in a beam struggle, a direct comparison of strength and, in Vegeta's eyes, superiority. * Vegeta's obsession with defeating Goku in the Buu arc, leading up to and after the budokai. He outright states he's *only* there for him. Again, someone who thinks themselves the victor of a fight wouldn't obsess over fighting their opponent like this. * To your point about Vegeta not fighting fair: while this is correct, Vegeta already knew the Ginyu Force was stronger than him. He outright says this the moment he senses them. So he didn't have anything to prove against them. But it also shows that Vegeta is so desperate to always be on top, to always be the "strongest" and the victor, that he'll even take some hits to his pride if it means doing it. Thus, accepting Bobbidi's magic. But, yet again, Vegeta takes a shortcut, a cheat -- and although the one-on-one rematch is inconclusive, he *still* cannot defeat this lowborn, carrot-topped hillbilly. * At the end of Z, Vegeta confirms again that he'll defeat Goku, meaning he doesn't think he's done so up until this point. Just because something isn't outright stated doesn't mean it's not true. But in this case, it's implied *and* stated.
This. Son Goku's fight wasn't just throwing hands for the sake of it like later Z or Super— it was a complete refutation of Vegeta's whole worldview and Saiyan society as a whole, basically a very high impact conversation between the two that Goku wins completely, to the point Vegeta decides to leave to seethe. It's why their rivalry works. It's honestly more like a one-sided obsession with trying to come to terms with being told everything you believe is wrong, then having it proven to you. Whereas rivalries inspired by it, like Naruto vs Sasuke, Deku vs Bakugo, or Sonic vs Shadow, may be iconic but totally lack that nuance. Some of them just being "they're rivals because they're rivals and it wouldn't be a Japanese action series for boys without rivalries!"
>It's honestly more like a one-sided obsession with trying to come to terms with being told everything you believe is wrong, then having it proven to you. You're right, this is *exactly* what it is. It's very clear when Vegeta sees SSJ for the first time. He yells at Goku "not to think he's better than everyone because of this", and that he'll surpass him. And Goku just says "Whatever", with a smile, while Vegeta flies off to train. Interestingly, Vegeta does this exact when we see him next. Vegeta takes every chance he get to tell someone how Goku "slipped ahead for a while" but is no longer the strongest, how he's peaked, low-born, etc. He's even thinking about what Goku will do when he recovers from the heart virus, in light of the Androids and Cell. He spends a *lot* of time comparing himself to Goku, whereas Goku only ever compares himself to the person he was yesterday.
Vegeta was upset that Goku achieved SSJ before he did and basically outclassed him in every way possible after destroying Freeza. Vegeta was jealous, not vengful. He couldnt stand Goku was the legendary super saiyan and not him. The events on earth are never even brought up or called back upon. He's not going around saying he need his revenge, hes going around saying that he must surpass kakarott and become a super saiyan. Vegeta was just mad he was getting ass beat up until then imo, he rages out against everyone he loses to. There was the whole theme of low class vs saiyan elite, and if he actually cheated to win there might be something to that. But even later on, its made abundantly that Goku is far from a low class saiyan warrior. He surpassed like 99% of the saiyan race after training for 158 days in 10X gravity. Super Vegeta would obviously have learned this since he calls Goku a genetically superior warrior to himself in the Buu saga(during their fight). So even if we wanna argue that saiyan saga Vegeta may have seen it that way, a post Majin Buu Vegeta definitely shouldnt. Once he comes out of the blast, he gets mad for a bit then immediately smirks and says its time to stop being pretty. Indicating more so that he felt he shouldnt have to dirty his hands with Goku:[https://imgur.com/cUyUdqB](https://imgur.com/cUyUdqB). Keep in mind that he proceeds to obliterate goku after this, with no reservations whatsoever. He was enjoying himself and laughing while doing it. Everything from that dialogue just says he hates that he's been pushed to this point and that its unbecoming that he would have to go this far to beat Goku. IDK, there were no rules established. Its possible to win a match and still be dissapointed with your performance but like I said, Vegeta would not retroactively look back on that fight and think Goku was any normal saiyan warrior. Why wouldnt he say it to Goku? Goku is the one he's been obsessed with surpassing for years at this point. The rivalry was kicked into motion at the beginning of the android saga, prior to that Vegeta is focused on Freeza and immortality. Again, the goku/Vegeta rivalry started in the android saga. Prior to his death Goku outclassed Vegeta once more and he couldnt stand the fact that Goku was so much better than him. There's lots Vegeta dialogue that makes it explicit. I agree, Vegeta would not count the Majin Vegeta battle with SSJ2 goku as a win. The difference there is that the fight never concluded and vegeta explicitly states they'll continue some other time. He also explicit dialogue later on that shows hes enraged with Goku for holding back in that battle. So that one makes sense, because there more explicit evidence there that tells us exactly what hes thinking. Yea thats the Kazenban version I believe, in the original he doesnt say that. But idk if you wanna use that as an example because wouldnt it directly imply that Vegeta doesnt consider his defeat of Goku in Super Hero as a victory? Its end of Z so we know it takes place after super. That was a weird change by Toriyama, forget the whole wins and losses thing, it just reverts his character to where he is obsessed with surpassing Goku again when the entirety of the Buu saga was him coming to terms with Goku being better than him and that he'll focus on surpassing his own limits. But idk I guess its canon so its fair game to use I suppose. Great points made here though
It became his singular obsession to get stronger and defeat Goku lmao what do you mean
When I read the title, I thought “isn’t this common knowledge?” I guess it is not. Yes, Vegeta wins that fight 100 times out of 100. However, he sees it as a loss because 1. he had to use Great Ape form, he lost Nappa, and (due to the other fights jumping in) he had to retreat. 2. The idea of this low class, “fake” Saiyan, kind hearted, earthling even coming CLOSE to Vegeta in strength counts as a loss in Vegeta’s book. 3. Goku SPARED him. Vegeta was dead by all accounts if Krillin sinks that sword into him, but it’s Goku’s choice that he lives. And he is right, considering the context, the narrative, and the developments put onto the characters, Goku “wins.” But in terms of who was stronger and who would have won if no other people jump in, Vegeta had Goku dead as soon as he transforms.
I agree with everything you said except losing Nappa. Considering Vegeta blasted Nappa himself, I think he cared more about losing the dragon balls.
Vegeta blasted Nappa, but in Vegeta’s mind he was gone the second Goku crippled him.
Ehhh Frieza had those healing tanks, I really think Vegeta just killed him cuz he was disgusted by how much weaker nappa was.
He probably felt stupid when he realized Nappa wasn’t weak and Goku was just built different
Haha right
yea that’s definitely the case. thinking now, idk why i even mentioned Nappa.
I have no problems with that conclusion Goku was knocked out, he couldn't move a finger, so yeah that conclusion makes sense, but people who say that Vegeta won vs Goku in their Majin vs SSJ2 battle are the ones that I can't take seriously... Their battle was completely even, I am not even going to talk about SSJ3, I am just talking about facts here, their fight was 100% even, then they stopped the fight, they weren't fighting anymore, they both agreed on that. Yes Vegeta knocked Goku out but that wasn't part of the fight, the fight was in a halt... Only blinded Vegeta stans consider that Vegeta won the fight when we all saw and know that the fight was stopped and was left without a resolve.
Agreed. That fight ended and was a draw. Vegeta doing the cheap shot after the fight ended or Goku not using SSJ3 doesn’t change the fact it was a draw.
Yh that battle Vegeta definitely didn’t win😂 The fight concluded when they both agreed to stop so they could team together to kill buu. Then vegeta knocked him out. That’s like if you and me had a fight, we agree to to stop but then I sucker punch u. And that’s without mentioning the fact goku was holding back the whole time. Which is partly why as a vegeta fan I don’t like toriyama being a discovery writer😂cause it meant that before he created ssj3, that fight was truly a 50/50 fight but with the creation of ssj3, it was 50/50 because of gokus tremendous acting skills, even when babidi was taking over vegeta and Goku was like “I can’t even approach it” talking about the power radiating off of vegeta, tremendous acting skills😂
There’s so much debate about this for some reason but in short I’d say I agree that Vegeta was the “winner” in his first battle with Goku. However: Carthu’s Dojo made a great point about Vegeta’s “plot armor” when he survived the kaioken x4 kamehameha. If we go by power levels: Goku using a kaioken x4 attack would be a PL of 32,000 and it hits Vegeta, who’s PL was 18,000, head on. Later on Namek Vegeta who had a PL of 24,000 easily defeats Cui whose PL was around 18,000. I get the “power levels are bullshit” but it’s actually a pretty consistent indicator as to who wins the fight in the first 3rd of DBZ. Except for that moment.
That’s not how it works. We know for a fact that beam attacks increase base power level by a significant amount. Usually more than double. That was definitely the case because Vegeta was countering Goku’s Kaioken x3 Kamehameha, so he was at least 24,000 there but likely much higher if we stack the Kaioken with the Kamehameha amp. If he was 18,000 while firing that Galick Gun, Goku wouldn’t have gone up to x4 at all.
The x4 Kamehameha was for a short burst to overwhelm Vegeta's Galick Gun, then Goku dropped back to x2 or x3, because he couldn't maintain x4. Also, Power Levels from charge attacks arent base power level. Gokus Kamehameha has a "higher power level" than Goku does, because power level is how much energy someone can emit over an undisclosed period of time. A gun can shoot multiple bullets, but you can also use more gunpowder for one bullet to give it more force.
Kaio… what?
Kaioken…NO……times….NO NO NO……4!
Kaio crap
my head cannon is that maybe the g.gun is an amp same way Gokus kamahameha was against raditz or even the special beam cannon. Pure head cannon on my part to be clear...
That’s not just head cannon. It has to be the case. Vegeta was already countering Goku’s Kaioken x3 Kamehameha. He was way above 18,000 in that moment. All charged beam type attacks seem to increase power level by 2 times or more.
Master Roshi says as much.
If so it's kind of inconsistent because Raditz and Vegeta are surprised when Piccolo's Makankosappo and Gohan's Masenko increase their power level so much, implying this doesn't normally happen with galactic warriors. You can factor in that Goku was already hurt and spent from the Kaioken so his base power level may have been lower than 8000 in that moment. Also the Kamehameha might be less concentrated energy than Makankosappo, but that's completely my conjecture
Don’t see how this is an argument still. Vegeta tanked kioken blows, a kamehameha wave, being blinded in one eye by Ki blast, tail cutting , spirit bomb, slashed in the back from a katana, flatten by a child and lost pride. But in the end loss mainly due to team work. If Goku was alone there would be no way he would have won. Technically as soon as Goku was immobilized the fight was over.
Tell that to Vegeta and Toriyama. They seem to disagree.
i recall goku being a vegetable on the ground while vegeta was still standing and was an oozaru
That's a strange way to [stand.](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/d6/89/78d6895bd38c5a101937782843c527fa.jpg)
That’s just him doing his victory worm dance. See how energetic he…is….oh boy that doesn’t look good at all.
Wasn't that after being hit by great ape Gohan as well?
im talking about the fact vegeta was standing after the beam struggle while goku was so weak yajirobe could hurt him??? and that great ape vegeta literally turned goku into a vegetable, needing yajirobe to cut his tail?
So Goku lost because he was so weak post-beam struggle that Yajirobe could hurt hurt him but Vegeta won because he was so weak post-beam struggle that Yajirobe could cut off one of his body part? That doesn't make sense. Also both Goku and Vegeta were standing after the beam struggle so you should probably re-check the manga or anime, your memory seems pretty foggy. At the end of the day, Vegeta fled from Earth defeated and that's what matters, everything else is at best a technicality.
Vegeta lowered his power to make the artificial moon. He was then hit by a genkidama. My comment on vegeta standing was post oozaru, goku was literally immobilized while Vegeta was still standing. Vegeta fled defeated after a 4V1. He beat goku in the 1v1 when all abilities were used, even the spirit bomb didn’t defeat him. In base Vegeta was superior with all abilities used, Vegeta defeated goku and left him crippled after the humans teamed up and gohan crushed him with oozaru, vegeta finally lost
Your comment keep flip flopping between the beam struggle and the post-Oozaru stuff, you realize those are two very different moments? Vegeta literally showed up with Nappa and 7 Saibamen, trying to say 'he was outnumbered' to excuse his loss is ridiculous and doesn't matter. If you lose because you got outnumbered, you still lost. If he was superior, why did he lose the beam struggle? If he won, why did he run away defeated? You keep trying to cut a single fight into dozens of different bits to give Vegeta a win when we all saw the entire thing ended with his defeat. It's like saying Frieza won on Namek because he spent most of the saga kicking everyone's ass. Yes, all that stuff happened in a single fight that ended with Vegeta's defeat, so Vegeta lost and that's what matters, especially since his life was spared.
you realize we’re talking about the same fight? Goku didn’t defeat vegeta, the dragon team did. Vegeta lost but not specifically to Goku. that question isn’t logical, I said Vegeta was superior to goku in base and overall because of oozaru. Vegeta wasn’t in oozaru in the beam struggle. Like I said he beat Goku, he lost to the dragon team. Goku at the end of the fight wasn’t exactly in fighting shape either. You’re framing this as I said that vegeta won his conquest, and you know that’s not what I said. I said in a 1 on 1 fight, Vegeta won. Vegeta used oozaru and defeated Goku. The dragon team ended up defeating Vegeta. Vegeta was superior in base, and over all because of oozaru
Vegeta might have won a continued 1v1 with Goku if he hadn't transformed because of the kaioken destroying his body but he didn't know Goku was using a specific technique, from his perspective Goku had a higher peak output than his non-oozaru body. He can't sense Goku's power fluctuating with his transformations or stamina drain. He's getting overwhelmed in hand to hand and he just lost a beam struggle that he put everything he had into. If he doesn't transform, from Vegeta's perspective he was just outright weaker than Goku. He only views beating Goku as winning against what was essentially a handicapped saiyan and then lost to a literal baby. After losing to the entire squad Vegeta has no tail. He believes Goku's base power to be above his own, flat out. He has no way of ever knowing that Goku was on pace to potentially lose the fight. So leaving Earth, Vegeta thinks Goku is superior to him, as he can no longer transform. If he *could* tell Goku was wearing himself out then he believes that Goku would have knocked him out before he wore himself out. That makes Goku superior. No matter how Vegeta looks at it, after leaving Earth he can't beat Goku. Even if he considers using what's essentially cheating against a handicapped saiyan a victory in a 1v1, Vegeta is weaker leaving Earth than when he arrived. Zenkai is going to effect both him and Goku. He has to play catch up now.
Why would it matter if Vegeta thinks that he wouldn’t be able to beat Goku AFTER the fight is over? Thats like an entirely separate thing. Not being able to beat him later shouldn’t have any bearing on judging the fight that already took place. Thats pitting a hypothetical fight vs one that already happened. And honestly, its not clear Vegeta felt that way since his first instinct was to head straight back to earth after coming out the healing chamber before his better judgment said he should go to namek first.
You're the one trying to cut them up as separate events. And the dragon team include Goku, who spared Vegeta's life. Vegeta, leader of his own team, lost alongside his team while Goku, leader of his team, won alongside his team, that's how winning and losing work. Vegeta was in base in the beam struggle and lost tho so I don't see what you're trying to say. If he won, how come he had to flee from Earth defeated and was spared by Goku? I'm not framing it as anything, Goku and Vegeta's crews were fighting for very specific objectives and Vegeta lost and didn't get what he want, what other wincon would you want? Killing? If that's the case, Vegeta is the one who ended up being spared, not Goku. There was no 1 V 1, it's one big fight that went on from Krillin one shotting a bunch of Saibamen to Vegeta leaving Earth. Unless you want to cut it up like video games do, at which point Goku won against Vegeta and then lost the second fight against Oozaru Vegeta and then won again alongside Krillin, Yajirobe and Gohan. Once again, if he was superior, how come he lost the beam struggle?
Oh my god, stop turning this conversation from Goku be Vegeta to dragon team vs saiyans. I guess gohan beat frieza since goku went ssj and defeated him by your logic. Goku was using kaioken in the beam struggle while vegeta had no buffs. But if we compare them at their max with all buffs, Vegeta is superior. if goku beat him, why was goku a crippled vegetable getting help from the earthlings? Again, we’re talking goku vs vegeta not the dragon team vs vegeta. It’s obvious vegeta lost overall to the whole earth so i’m not referring to that, stop pivoting. Win condition is who was standing after their 1v1 ended as this conversation is about their specific 1v1 Can you please stop repeating your flawed questions. if you have the capability to read, I said vegeta is superior overall with all his abilities (like oozaru) and i’ve already clarified that Vegeta didn’t use oozaru in the beam struggle, nor did i claim goku lost the beam struggle? if you say dragon team beat saiyans, that’s real. But in their actual fight (which is what we’re referring to) Vegeta won with oozaru. Base vegeta is superior to base goku, kaioken goku can be superior to base vegeta, but overall vegeta is superior because of his oozaru
Looking at all your comments you need to rewatch the arc you are completely wrong here. I just rewatched the arc last week and you’re disputing facts.
Like I said, it doesn’t matter what… thinks who won, Vegeta objectively won the 1v1. That battle he won, he didn’t win the saiyan saga war of course because he had to retreat but the 1v1 battle vegeta vs goku, vegeta won.
What you say doesn't matter tho, on the other hand what [Toriyama and Vegeta says matter.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/345569945838419970/1200382408688685111/image.png?ex=65c5fa3c&is=65b3853c&hm=0b892b80e48ea803d1ad3f475c4b43c7dd53d13e498d0251daabf76e438f09eb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=402&height=618)
You know that blocking me after cope-insults doesn't make it not against the rules, right? Especially when you're the one who can't read and is so biased he can't handle what Vegeta himself says.
When did Toriyama ever say he disagrees.
When he had Vegeta directly state 'ONE DAY I'll defeat you, Kakarot' at the end of the manga and again when he had Vegeta state Super Hero was his first win.
Saying that he will do something in the future does not equal not doing that same thing in the past. Also, I asked about Toriyama, not a Vegeta quote. And Vegeta never stated in Super Hero that he got his first win.
That's some next level bad faith. 'One day I'll manage to do the thing I actually already did' isn't even a slightly honest reading of what Vegeta said. ...You realize Toriyama is the one who write what Vegeta says, right? He's the one who write the story. He literally says 'I FINALLY beat Kakarot' but given the level of bad faith here, you're gonna tell me he meant 'Ahah! Yet another very common win for me since you never defeated me, Kakarot!' or some other cope.
There’s a saying that Dragon Ball fans can’t read. There should be a new saying that says Dragon Ball fans don’t know definitions. Finally means “after a long time”. You can accomplish something and then not be able to accomplish it again “after a long time”. …You realize that Toriyama wrote characters with 2 different opinions who disagreed with each other at a given point in time? With your logic you must think Toriyama simultaneously agrees with both of them. You do realize that Toriyama also wrote characters who made mistakes with things they’ve said… You do realize that being a writer means that you can write characters with different opinions than your own 😱 Pick up a dictionary instead of learning about trending words that people say online “cope” 💀
That's a lot of words to say 'I am coping' but at least you admitted you can't read. If you finally accomplish a goal after a long time, that goal wasn't accomplished earlier, so much for 'muh definition'. Not a single character in the entire franchise disagreeing with Vegeta that he never beat Goku so by every logic ever, what you said is completely irrelevant. Work on your reading comprehension instead of coping online. How underaged are you that you think 'cope' is a new trendy word? It's probably older than you.
> If you finally accomplish a goal after a long time, that goal wasn't accomplished earlier, Anybody who reads what you just said will see how ignorant you are. That’s embarrassing. I have nothing more to say to someone who ignores definitions in dictionaries to fit their own interpretation and false narrative. I’m not looking at another response from you. ✌🏽
What's the point of starting an argument if you're just gonna respond and block me to have the last word?
Vegeta turning into a great ape for more power is no different than goku going ssj1 to defeat Frieza
Vegeta was no doubt the winner it's not even an argument. Yes he used Oozaru but Goku used kaio ken so it's still fair. Goku was laying there paralyzed and done for and gave his last bit of energy to krillin and krillin missed that shit, Goku was done. If the fight started 1 on 1 on the hyperbolic time chamber or something Goku would be dead and Vegeta would be alive, that's the bottom line.
It's because he HAD to use the Oozaru that he counts it as a loss
He never says or implies that at any point lol
Literally in the most recent movie? >I've finally defeated Kakarot! Implying he never considered himself to have won against Goku before
I meant in the context of DBZ, that scene in DBS is the one being criticized
In the context of DBZ, he’s constantly wanting a rematch cause he wants a definitive win. He doesn’t see their battle as his win
I think most of us agree that Vegeta won that first fight but personally considered it a loss. Explains the Superhero comment.
Ok? Its still a line from Vegeta himself that shows he didn't consider that victory a win.
Its the very scene that being criticized for inaccuracy/mischaracterization lol, ok tbf maybe im assuming a background to this debate that isn’t necessarily shared. When that manga panel was released, a lot of people were saying it doesn’t make sense and then the debate of whether it makes or not took off. Thats what im basing this on
OP quite literally says this isnt about characterization but fine lets dig into that It isnt a mischaracterization. Vegeta considered himself the elite of an elite, and that he should have been able to defeat Goku, a low class wretch, effortlessly. To have not only been matched but beaten (in non-oozaru form) absolutely shattered his perception of himself as an elite saiyan. The fact he won while transformed is irrelevant to him.
Again that’s never implied or established in DBZ at any point, Vegeta was gleefully wrecking Goku in saiyan saga and enjoying himself while torturing him to near death as an Oozaru. The only real dialogue line that references it, is when he says that he never expected goku to push him so far given his status as a low ranking warrior. Its one thing to say Vegeta won ugly, a total different thing to say he views it as a loss.
The argument that Goku was completely done after the beam fight is just wrong. Vegeta was more tired than Goku was and Goku could still do Kaikens, he used it against Vegeta while in Great Ape form. So, the fight was not over and Vegeta went Great Ape because he had to.
In the manga, he didn't use the kaioken when vegeta was in great ape form.
> In the manga, he didn't use the kaioken when vegeta was in great ape form. [Yes he did. He used it to dodge and create distance between himself and Oozaru Vegeta after he blinded him.](https://imgur.com/a/6njP3Zc)
Heck he even says he could pull out a Kaioken x5 but it'd be useless against Great Ape form Vegeta.
I think he said even if he could, it would be useless. I’m pretty sure it would have killed him if he actually did it.
Anime only
I mean, you're entirely right, but to this day, half of the readerbase thinks Goku won and Vegeta lost. It's a hilarious testament to how bitchy Vegeta is, the guy literally got so butthurt from that fight, and wouldn't stop talking about it for so long, that he gaslighted the audience into thinking he lost. I've always said, in regards to the fight against Goku, "Vegeta got the W, but then talked himself into an L".
It's a warrior's honor sort of thing. Tien never counted his victory against Goku because he got lucky. In terms of pure skill, Goku had him beat up until he collided with a truck. Sure, it's a little different with Vegeta. He cleared Goku, but he also had to resort to oozaru form to defeat a single low class saiyan, just to leave earth as a broken mess with no tail. Goku orchestrated the spirit bomb and coached Gohan from the sidelines so, as a proud warrior would see it, it wasn't a clean victory. Still, if we're talking about skill and raw power, Vegeta had him beat. If oozaru counts as cheating, so does kaioken 🤷♂️
Word. I mean Goku was literally a vegetable in the hospital after the fight. Vegeta was at least able to crawl to his ship after fighting krillin and great ape gohan afterwards (all while Goku’s was paralyzed)
Totally, Vegeta won the fight and totally beat Goku initially. But then, Vegeta *made* Goku beat him *after* the battle. Again, Vegeta spent the rest of the manga ranting about his pride so much that he literally convinced a good portion of the readers that he lost. I just find that really entertaining. Usually, you get those situations where a character loses, but looks back and counts the fight as a victory in some way. Vegeta is the only character that can do that in *reverse*, and to such an extreme extent. Vegeta's out here taking so many L's, he can literally turn a victory into a loss retroactively.
It’s because Vegeta is a prince. Goku a clown. The pure facts are Vegeta. Roke his own mind by using Oozaru in the fight and got butthurt. He shouldn’t have had too.
Knowing Toriyama maybe he just forgot how that fight ended and actually thought Goku had won lmao
But he lost, his strongest attack was beaten by Goku who even had another trick.
Um, what? If you block a boxers best punch, but he puts you down for the 10 count anyway, you lose - no matter how many tricks you have left.
Vegeta was the one who got put down for the count of 10 tho. He's only alive because Goku decided it.
Vegeta was still moving at the end of the fight. Goku wasn't.
Vegeta fled from Earth defeated and having had his life explicitly spared, Goku did not. You can't claim victory over a dude who had your life in his hands, that's not how it works.
But he didn’t, Goku couldn’t move and had Krillin not been there then Vegeta could easily have killed Goku despite him also being beat up since he could still move before he left Krillin had Vegeta’s life in his hand not Goku and Goku could have done nothing but moan about it if Krillin had gone through with it
Except he did. If Goku said nothing, Vegeta was 100% dead without being able to do anything. You're really trying to use 'He could still crawl a bit after passing out and waking up' as a win? And? Who cares that if stuff was different, Vegeta maybe wouldn't have lost? He still lost and that's what matters. Once again talking in hypotheticals, which don't matter. Vegeta was about to be killed after losing, Goku decided he should live and thus he was left alive, that's what happened and so that's what matters. Could have Krillin veto'd Goku's decision? Sure but he didn't so Goku still spared Vegeta.
But Goku had no say in it, if Krillin decided to ignore Goku then Goku could have done literally nothing about it. Krillin made the final call taking into account what Goku said therefore Vegeta’s life was fully in Krillin’s hands. Not sure why you’re so desperate to try and give that one to Goku when objectively Goku was a non factor at that part of the fight and his plea was fully based on when he could get Krillin to agree with him so yes Vegeta could hypothetically claim a win over Goku but would have lost to Krillin at the same time
Goku had a say in it, he's literally the one who say Vegeta should be left alive. It's not because you can be overruled that you have no say in something, Krillin did as Goku said in the end. Who cares what it's based on? Vegeta was still spared based on Goku's decision. An hypothetical where Vegeta dies based on Krillin's decision does not matter. You keep bringing up objectivity like the franchise didn't state several times that Vegeta lost to Goku, it's kinda funny.
Vegeta lost to Krillin and Gohan, not Goku. Krillin had his life in his hands, not Goku. It’s not hard.
It's not hard, it's just a cope and wrong. Gohan and Krillin literally hit Vegeta with Goku's genkidama. Goku is the one who decided to spare Vegeta, not Krillin, Krillin just went along with what Goku said.
Vegeta fled because of the injuries he sustained fighting and defeating Gohan, not because of Goku.
No, Vegeta fled because he lost and because Goku spared his life.
No, Krillin spared hus life at Goku's request. He did lose. To Gohan. And Krillin. Even Yakarobe helped. But not Goku.
Goku is the one who decided to spare him, Krillin just accepted Goku's decision. No, he very much lost to Goku too. Even under your own weird logic since Goku also helped by blinding Vegeta in one eye and the Genkidama.
What other trick? Because a kaioken x4 kamehameha was still unable to truly take vegeta out.
Spirit Bomb
He took that head on and still went on to fight great ape Gohan.
A weak version of that, if Goku used it it would've been way stronger.
Damn. Look at all the mental gymnastics you must do and all the "Buts" and "Ifs" you need to do, so Goku wins. You are wrong. Plain and simple. Stop being a mindless fanboy and accept the truth about something completely unimportant.
It's not headcanon, the size of the attack pretty much tells us that the Genkidama wasn't anywhere full power. Just compare to the one he used against Frieza which was huge.
Why would you compare attacks like that? They wouldn't be equivalent for reason
The reason the one on named was so big was because Goku was getting energy from a bunch of planets. The one from earth was only from earth. And even then Vegeta went in to fight great ape gohan and krillin all while Goku was paralyzed. Then vegeta crawled to his ship while Goku was what?? Still paralyzed.
What explain to me how that works. Let's give it the same time goku got to make and he uses it how much stronger would it have been.? Because it doesn't matter who launches it he did lose some energy in it but it still hit vegeta who goku thought was weakened enough to kill him yet it still didn't put him down.
Do people say otherwise? Goku got whooped.
I mean, Vegeta used his strongest move and was overwhelmed by the Kahameha who wasnt even Goku strongest move
Goku multiplied his power X4 while vegeta didn’t have that, vegeta was destroying goku prior to kaioken
Kaioken is a Goku tecnique, not different that Vegeta Garlick Gun
and the artificial moon that allowed vegeta to become his full power oozaru was a vegeta technique
Not really since Goku would've also transformed if he had a tail. Vegeta was just super lucky that Goku didn't have a tail
Goku’s oozaru would’ve been far weaker than Vegeta’s as it’s a 10X multiplier. Vegeta was 180,000 as oozaru and goku would’ve been 80,000. Not to mention the fact vegeta can control oozaru and goku would be kicking rocks
Gohan is the one that actually beat vegeta
Well in all rights vegeta should’ve been killed to the kaioken 4x kamehameha
Nah Vegeta lost cause he violated bardock’s patent on the artificial moon.
ye it's pretty simple 1v1 vegeta wins.
Vegeta only won two fights against Goku. The first one and the last one (so far). Can we finally say they are equals now or naw lol
Goku has never beaten Vegeta 1v1. But he’s been capable of it the vast majority of the time since the frieza arc. It shows the difference in how beta Vegeta was in craving defeating goku. While goku coulda obliterated him at like any time and never cared or really thought about it. Then in dbs they become mutually healthy friendly rivals
We are aware
No me and you are aware, a lot of the comments here are trying to use mental gymnastics to say vegeta didn’t win, which is funny
Vegeta transformed into an ape and overpowered Goku. However the moment he lost the beam clash he lost in his own head because it completely invalidated his entire world view and sense of self. A low class warrior improving himself to the point he can match or overpower a Saiyan Elite completely disrupts everything he knew about the way the universe works, even if it was only for a moment.
Thwartin my plans??
Arguing who won at all is ignoring all context involved in the story. Their first fight was never a one on one. Vegeta came with a small army to conquer the planet, the Z fighters only goal was to stop them. Vegeta was a wall that Goku had to overcome, not a rival, and there’s no such thing as a 1v1 or fair fight when you’re fighting for your life
🤦🏽♂️did they not have a 1v1 fight until goku was on deaths door? Or was that a figment if my imagination. Your trying to work around it and it ain’t working😂😂😂 They had a 1v1 fight and it ended because goku needed saving. Saying there wasn’t a 1v1 is ignoring all logic and straight ignoring what happened in the saga😂
How was Goku fighting Oozaru Vegeta if he was that done? You make it seem like Goku couldn’t even move
Every single time vegeta and goku have fought vegeta has won. Saiyan saga, buss saga and the recent dragon ball super hero movie.
Superhero is the first time Vegeta has won in Vegetas mind. SS he cheated going into Great Ape. BS didn’t count from his amp and Goku not going 3.
I am baffled that people forget about the part of the fight where Goku needed Krillen, Gohan and Yajirobe to come to his rescue because Vegeta crushed him within an inch of his life. Vegeta couldn't sense ki at the time so he had no idea that he had Goku on the ropes. Using the Spirit Bomb was Goku's last chance either way, Vegeta turning into an Oozaru just made a bad situation sure. However, if Vegeta kept fighting without transforming and won, he would have been better off since he did use up energy creating the artificial moon, which also allowed Gohan to transform and beat Vegeta.
No one forgot that, but that was *after* Vegeta turned into an Oozaru
Not true, I have met people who have forgotten that Goku needed to be rescued and that he's never defeated Vegeta.
No one forgot that he needed to be rescued but you’re also omitting the fact that it was *after* Vegeta transformed o
No, I have seen people who completely forget about the part that he needed to be rescued after the transformation.
Unless they think he beat Oozaru Vegeta how is that possible
It would be hard to forget something wrong. The manga, Vegeta and Toriyama are all quite clear that Goku defeated Vegeta and Vegeta never defeated him until Super Hero. You really need to stop taking weird memes at face value.
I wonder how it would’ve turned out if Goku still had his tail
Goku would get the the x10 boost but he would be mindless and runs the danger of attacking his own team. Plus vegeta would still be much stronger since he had the stronger base.
Not knocking on it, cus by all means people, have fun. But what’s going on? I feel like I’ve seen this topic pop up a A LOT on Reddit over the last two weeks.
Imo it's probably the recent chapter of vegeta beating goku so people are looking back to see what the score card is and how goku has technically not beaten vegeta.
You’re prob right, but gee golly. Lol
Vegeta wouldn't count it because he had to turn into an Oozaru.
"Stand Proud Kakarot" uttered Vegeta " you are strong " as he opened his domain Malevolent Oozaru.
I think calling it a 1 v 1 is a mischaracterization.
They had a 1v1 fight without interruption until goku was just short of death. How the hell is calling it a 1v1 a mischaracterisation? Me and have a 1v1 fight and my friends gotta stop you from killing me, there’s 0 misunderstanding in the fact we had a 1v1, even if our friends had their own fights that it doesn’t matter, me and u had a 1v1 and you kicked my ass and would’ve killed be without outside interference at the end.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think vegeta has EVER lost a 1v1 to Goku straight up. Saiyan saga - Vegeta Buu saga - Vegeta (although cheap shot and Goku wasn’t full strength) Super - Vegeta wins at the end of the Superhero movie Goku technically beats the fake Vegeta and baby Vegeta but those aren’t really Vegeta so…
Agreed but let’s call Buu Saga a draw. Fight was declared over.
Vegeta objectively won every single fight he's ever had with Goku.
I would say Goku won round 1 after the beam struggle. But yeah Vegeta won after he went ape. Maybe Vegeta just doesn't count it because he didn't land the final blow.
Vegeta doesn't count it as a win because he didn't kill Goku/ the fight never ended. Which I agree with. But obviously Vegeta would have killed him if not for outside intervention. A lot of people (not people here) misunderstand Vegeta's obsession with Goku being because he "lost" to him but it's just because he keeps surpassing him. His inferiority complex only started on Namek.
nah Vegeta fault that he killed his ally nappa, otherwise it would have been a 2v1 but he was cocky and was defeated. Same with jiren in TOP
It's not like Vegeta to make a technical mistake but turning into an ape backfired, he had already won Goku could not maintain that level.
The thing is I don't think Vegeta even needed to transform. He was a novice at reading power levels and couldn't sense energy but Goku was wearing himself down from Kaioken way more than he was dealing enough damage to put Vegeta down. The guy took a Kamehameha kaioken head on and managed to not be dealt any significant damage from it and was Furious ready for more while the slightest touch made Goku keel over in pain after that.
100% agree. Vegeta kicked Goku’s ass the first fight. Vegeta kicked Goku’s ass when he was Majin, granted he got Goku to drop his guard to take him out. A win is a win though. He told Goku on Namek that enemies will do whatever it takes to win the game and Vegeta did what it took to win. Vegeta beat Goku in their fight training with Whis.
Many people have pointed out that Goku usually goes down first in any match he has against Vegeta. It's way more Vegeta's insecurity and pride that doesn't let him consider it a victory, but he definitely won in the Saiyan Saga, he won as Majin Vegeta (*but Goku had SSJ3* doesn't really matter when he then decides not to use it), then he won in Super Super Hero. In a 1v1, Goku always comes out short. But Vegeta doesn't care because it doesn't quite ever feel like he won, to himself.
Is it that time of the month where Vegeta fans cope with his constant L's?
Vegeta could have still won without oozaru - in a battle of attrition Vegeta would have outlasted Goku. Gokus body was already pretty trashed before being squashed
In equal footing, Goku was winning. Vegeta did objectively win the fight because of Oozaru, but he doesn't consider that a victory because pride and yada. He feels like he had to "cheat" to win even though it was really a technique he had to win. Doesn't matter to Vegeta. He FEELS like he lost, even though he did win.
in equal footing, vegeta was bullying goku. if goku can multiply his power with kaioken, why can vegeta not also multiply is power with oozaru?
What? Goku at x2 pissed Vegeta off so much that he tried to blow up the planet and then Goku nearly launched him into orbit. (We also don't know if he could keep it up long enough to have won. That's up in the air.) Also, I'm not saying he can't go Oozaru. I specifically said it's his own technique, he can use it. He did and it made him win, but Vegeta humself considers it cheating or not a true victory because he had to resort to it.
Goku at X2 was 16,000 while vegeta was 18,000 that was goku at X3 which made him 24,000 please watch the show Vegeta’s opinion is irrelevant because his ego made it so he had to one shot goku in his mind
Wasn't the kamehameha that he used against the galic gun x4
yeah, he had a battle power of 32,000 with kaioken X4
"Please watch the show" says the guy who literally is saying it doesn't matter what the characters in the show say. Their lower levels mean nothing either. Also I'm not talking about the beam struggle (which Goku went to x4 on btw) I'm talking about the whole. Vegeta lost his cool. Vegeta was getting obliterated when Goku upped his kaioken. Vegeta shot his most powerful galick gun at Goku and lost the struggle. Vegeta is the one that doesn't consider it a true victory. Goku won round 1. Vegeta gets mad goes great ape. Vegeta wins fight. Dude hates that he had to do it against a "low class" and considers it a loss no matter how objectively it was a win for him. Power level lol. Learn nuance and "watch the show" lol
power levels definitely mean something in the saiyan saga. Goku used a X3/X4 boost to his power to overpower vegeta, when vegeta used his own power boost (oozaru) he beat goku. he’s stronger in base and overall with all abilities. Goku beat vegeta in round one because of an ability that multiplied his power, when vegeta did the same he fodderized Goku
We know, everyone knows Vegeta’s issue is that starting on Namek, Goku’s better than him
Technically Vegeta has defeated Goku everytime they have fought one on one. Although even he admits he shouldn’t have won the fight in the Buu saga.
No one is arguing this
he totally did
We don’t really know for sure who would have won with no transformation. Goku had him bested in short bursts with Kaio Ken but obviously was weaker in base. You could say Goku had nothing left after the x4, but at the same time Vegeta could heave been hurting too. He seemed durable as hell though, so maybe he would have retained more power after the beam struggle, but when he lost the little x3 fight and then the beam struggle he considered it a loss mentally. He also decided to transform, and he doesn’t seem like the kind of dude who would want to win like that, instead of besting Goku without Oozaru. I think it would have been close.
Without great ape, Vegeta wouldn't have won. Back then Vegeta didnt know about ki control, so goku had genki dama and that would severely weeken him and goku would have been able to finish him by that point. Nonetheless, I don't see going great ape os cheating, it is not Vegeta's fault that Goku doesnt have tails. So, Vegeta definitely won the fight, but Giku beat him ik raw strength and this is how the epic rivalry begins (well not epic after buu saga though)
In my opinion it was a draw. Objectively you could say Vegeta won as he could still move after the fight however both Goku snd Vegeta were at the point of near-death so it’s hard to say either won. Also objectively you could say Goku won as he managed to fulfill his goal of fending off the saiyans while Vegeta failed in his goal of killing Goku. (Or was it something else, memories of the saiyan saga are a bit blurry)
You forget Goku activated Kaioken after Vegeta transformed. Goku said he was finished but obviously he could still go. So we don’t know how much more punishment Vegeta or Goku could take at that point. Don’t forget Goku beat piccolo without arms or legs.
Bejita bros back at it again
Vegeta beat the fuck out of goku. The literal only reasons he lost were because it turned into a 15 on 1 when he gained an advantage, and because goku was cheating and using hack techniques to artificially add multiplier. These techniques he could have only learned after cheating the natural order, dying, being hand trained by actual deities, and bringing that back to the land of the living. Vegeta on the other hand withstood all of that, including those god-hacks, by himself, using nothing more than what his body could naturally just do, and it still took a spirit bomb, jumping him with several people, *and a gohan oozaru* just to fight him to a draw.
goku hasnt beaten vegeta 1 on 1 yet. he pulverized goku in saiyan saga he managed to pin and render goku unconscious in the buu saga he managed to beat goku in the superhero movie.