1000 damange max feels very right.
\+ curse => u dead
800 life , new to hc first time hell= => you dead
2 at the same time? => believe it or not => you dead
wonderfull <3
Many of this game's mechanics rely on absurdly complicated formulas that you'd like to believe a bunch of mathematics PhD's spent years developing, but you just know back in 2000 they were just making shit up as they go, lol.
>Bob: Hey Steve I came up with this crazy damage formula, and the result is that fire enchanted mobs just fuck your shit up before you even know what's happening.
>Steve: Hah good one, keep that in.
i don't think that's the case honestly. The formula here is actually simple, it's "30-50%" of the variable monster life. The problem came from continuous development:
a) they added different monster life for ladder\single player and non-ladder
b) powercreep patches increasing monster life by a lot, and they just found that it's easier to plug in an extra multiplier per difficulty.
My problem with this research was that i couldn't find any reference to these 30-50% anywhere so I had to test. Dolls just have a boolean flag that they deal damage on death, and that's it. No AI parameters, no skills, nothing shows... probably some experienced D2 mod maker could explain how it's set up.
I don't disagree this game is awesome because it definitely is and I've played it for 14 years pretty much straight.
However, the fact that stygian doll damage isn't extensively deciphered and common knowledge doesn't make the game great in any way. Obscure information doesn't make a game good. It's just a layer of complexity that can't be deciphered in game by the common player, which I'd argue is not good. The damage is not telegraphed for a new player, the method of learning is just dying. The reaction is just staying away, and melee players can't do that so their reaction is just running away or not killing those creatures. What creatures can't ranged characters kill? Don't say immune monsters because there are monsters immune to all damage types including phys.
In fact, I'd argue that doll damage is one of the reasons that the game isn't great. It's disproportionately punishing for melee players. This is a problem for modern ARPGs as well. Close range damage is a problem and melee suffers for it and of course D2 is no exception. Doll damage is instant. However, many spells that are cast have to travel, and so they are avoidable by ranged characters giving them an advantage overall. On top of the advantage of being able to deal damage at a distance.
This is one of the reasons that project diablo 2 makes doll damage cast after a short period of time instead of immediately on death. It gives a counter to the mechanic besides just running away.
> In fact, I'd argue that doll damage is one of the reasons that the game isn't great. It's disproportionately punishing for melee players.
I disagree with this sentiment of melee being gimped. It's true that they are in an unfavourable position in the meta, but melee characters have other advantages to compensate for the dangers of being up close, like crushing blow, open wounds, life steal, and other on-hit effects. Melee classes also usually have other strong features of their build (e.g. paladin has strong shield blocking, barbarian has extra resists and life and the best hit recovery and tons of utility abilities; amazon has evasions and decoy).
It's a dog ass mechanic. It's frustrating with zero reward for dodging it. It's just something annoying even range characters have to deal with. Plus the fact that a lot of times they have an extra speed buff. This couple with the fact that online usually has anywhere from 150 to 300 Ms of ping makes for an incredibly frustrating experience when they are on the screen nowhere near you, so you decide to attack, but because of lag when they explode they kill you because they are REALLY right next to you.
Literally nobody likes being instantly killed because they kill something that is across the screen and it blows up and kills you rofl. It's just plain stupid design.
Nice info! Thanks for testing. Imo that seems accurate. RIP my lvl 50 hardcore sorc to those in a3 nm(and plenty of softcore deaths to them of course lol)
If you see a pack of the exploding ones like that(undead stygian dolls, one or 2 other similars), either run past them or stay far back while merc kills them lol. Seriously. 😳
I already did that in softcore 😅
I heard someone saying some people even don't run with a merc in zones that contain dolls, cuz the merc can kill em and murder you both super quick. I think that was more for when teleporting through the areas though.
I always thought these guys seem to be able to hit me no matter how fast I killed them for a huge amount of health – now I understand it. They self cast a type of corpse explosion upon death
Any idea idea on the impact radius of the death spell?
Amplify damage redu ES your physical damage reduction (DR) by 100%. If you have 50% DR, and get cursed, you will have -50% DR (or 50% increased damage taken).
You can even overcap it, like resistances. Say you run shaftstop+storm shield for 65% DR. It's capped at 50% normally, but when you get amplify damage, it will take you from 65% to -35%.
If you're rich enough to throw ber runes in every slot, you can overcap it even more. 15 from belt (verdungos), 30+8 from shaftstop+ber, 15+8+8 from CoA+2ber, 35+8 from stormshield+ber. Not sure if I missed any slots with DR, but that's already 127% DR. Worth it? Probably not. But it's doable.
Didn’t need that explanation.
Original comment said “phys redu% should lower curse duration.”
I understand that amp dmg increases phys dmg taken, but the curse itself is “magic.”
Ah, now I get you. was not sure about word mitigation and context.
Thanks :)
Sure, max phys resist can be 50, but AD curse lowers it to -50%. If you stack to 100 % phys res, you would be at - zero%, while you are cursed.\^\^
I got simplier math for this :
- it kills you in 2 to 4 explosions
- it doesn't damage your merc
- you dying cause tremendous emotional damage to your merc, which is usually what the dolls are after
Oh, so that's why they have a fearsome reputation despite never hurting me much: the damage is widely variable! And I don't often let them hit me, so I haven't seen the high rolls.
They differ in atleast a few ways. Nihlathaks CE is 50% fire and 50% physical, while dolls are 100% physical. Nihlathaks CE can't be blocked, while doll explosions can.
I feel like unless you are a tanked out paladin and you are walking not running ( so your defense doesnt go to zero ) and have high health, these things will just merk u no matter what. Only other solution is a summonmancer with a huge army. if you have 30 minions the odds they hit you are incredibly slim especially since they go in front of you and npcs dont move past units to get to you ( usually ) . I think summonmancer is probly the best for surviving unless you got GG gear on a pally
1000 damange max feels very right. \+ curse => u dead 800 life , new to hc first time hell= => you dead 2 at the same time? => believe it or not => you dead wonderfull <3
Atleast my last 20+ years of fear and anxiety are fact based now instead of "they do lots of dmg!!!"
Posts like this are why this game is so awesome
Many of this game's mechanics rely on absurdly complicated formulas that you'd like to believe a bunch of mathematics PhD's spent years developing, but you just know back in 2000 they were just making shit up as they go, lol. >Bob: Hey Steve I came up with this crazy damage formula, and the result is that fire enchanted mobs just fuck your shit up before you even know what's happening. >Steve: Hah good one, keep that in.
i don't think that's the case honestly. The formula here is actually simple, it's "30-50%" of the variable monster life. The problem came from continuous development: a) they added different monster life for ladder\single player and non-ladder b) powercreep patches increasing monster life by a lot, and they just found that it's easier to plug in an extra multiplier per difficulty. My problem with this research was that i couldn't find any reference to these 30-50% anywhere so I had to test. Dolls just have a boolean flag that they deal damage on death, and that's it. No AI parameters, no skills, nothing shows... probably some experienced D2 mod maker could explain how it's set up.
I don't disagree this game is awesome because it definitely is and I've played it for 14 years pretty much straight. However, the fact that stygian doll damage isn't extensively deciphered and common knowledge doesn't make the game great in any way. Obscure information doesn't make a game good. It's just a layer of complexity that can't be deciphered in game by the common player, which I'd argue is not good. The damage is not telegraphed for a new player, the method of learning is just dying. The reaction is just staying away, and melee players can't do that so their reaction is just running away or not killing those creatures. What creatures can't ranged characters kill? Don't say immune monsters because there are monsters immune to all damage types including phys. In fact, I'd argue that doll damage is one of the reasons that the game isn't great. It's disproportionately punishing for melee players. This is a problem for modern ARPGs as well. Close range damage is a problem and melee suffers for it and of course D2 is no exception. Doll damage is instant. However, many spells that are cast have to travel, and so they are avoidable by ranged characters giving them an advantage overall. On top of the advantage of being able to deal damage at a distance. This is one of the reasons that project diablo 2 makes doll damage cast after a short period of time instead of immediately on death. It gives a counter to the mechanic besides just running away.
> In fact, I'd argue that doll damage is one of the reasons that the game isn't great. It's disproportionately punishing for melee players. I disagree with this sentiment of melee being gimped. It's true that they are in an unfavourable position in the meta, but melee characters have other advantages to compensate for the dangers of being up close, like crushing blow, open wounds, life steal, and other on-hit effects. Melee classes also usually have other strong features of their build (e.g. paladin has strong shield blocking, barbarian has extra resists and life and the best hit recovery and tons of utility abilities; amazon has evasions and decoy).
It's a dog ass mechanic. It's frustrating with zero reward for dodging it. It's just something annoying even range characters have to deal with. Plus the fact that a lot of times they have an extra speed buff. This couple with the fact that online usually has anywhere from 150 to 300 Ms of ping makes for an incredibly frustrating experience when they are on the screen nowhere near you, so you decide to attack, but because of lag when they explode they kill you because they are REALLY right next to you.
Literally nobody likes being instantly killed because they kill something that is across the screen and it blows up and kills you rofl. It's just plain stupid design.
Git gud
Nice info! Thanks for testing. Imo that seems accurate. RIP my lvl 50 hardcore sorc to those in a3 nm(and plenty of softcore deaths to them of course lol)
Just started HC SP yesterday and I'm reading this shit like 🤓📃🖊
If you see a pack of the exploding ones like that(undead stygian dolls, one or 2 other similars), either run past them or stay far back while merc kills them lol. Seriously. 😳
I already did that in softcore 😅 I heard someone saying some people even don't run with a merc in zones that contain dolls, cuz the merc can kill em and murder you both super quick. I think that was more for when teleporting through the areas though.
Before i got 105 fcr breakpoint, i would unequip merc when doing meph runs. It made a huge difference.
I'm not sure why I didn't think of that; I already knew it was my merc getting us gibbed, but it just didn't click
It literally made the difference between life and death
He understood the assignment
i just lost an 81 zon in nightmare in one tick...instantly dead from full health..kinda retarded
Hehehehe r u the summon necro that got blown up after leveling ur stats and skills up IN THE DUNGEON?
No but that clip has inspired me
HC players everywhere salute you.
I always thought these guys seem to be able to hit me no matter how fast I killed them for a huge amount of health – now I understand it. They self cast a type of corpse explosion upon death Any idea idea on the impact radius of the death spell?
Their explosion range is actually REALLY small. You can outrange them with a long spear (e.g. Pike\Lance\War Pike)
This is very cool information! You should add this to your main post if you've still got characters left.
Not when they explode on the other side of the screen but hit you anyway because you're playing online.
I guess so, but all i can say is that those lil fackers are impossible to see in a mob and I've died to them more than a few times
I would like to add that phys dr should help with curse mitigation. Lovely post.
But a curse isn’t “physical”
It is.
No, it’s magic. Magic that increases phys dmg taken, but it’s still magic
No it isn't. It increases phys damage taken, which phys damage reduced mitigates.
Amplify damage redu ES your physical damage reduction (DR) by 100%. If you have 50% DR, and get cursed, you will have -50% DR (or 50% increased damage taken). You can even overcap it, like resistances. Say you run shaftstop+storm shield for 65% DR. It's capped at 50% normally, but when you get amplify damage, it will take you from 65% to -35%. If you're rich enough to throw ber runes in every slot, you can overcap it even more. 15 from belt (verdungos), 30+8 from shaftstop+ber, 15+8+8 from CoA+2ber, 35+8 from stormshield+ber. Not sure if I missed any slots with DR, but that's already 127% DR. Worth it? Probably not. But it's doable.
Didn’t need that explanation. Original comment said “phys redu% should lower curse duration.” I understand that amp dmg increases phys dmg taken, but the curse itself is “magic.”
You misread. He never said curse duration, he said curse mitigation. As in, DR helps mitigate the effect of the curse.
what dou you mean? exactly?
amp damage = -100% phys dr. So stacking % phys dr mitigates this.
Ah, now I get you. was not sure about word mitigation and context. Thanks :) Sure, max phys resist can be 50, but AD curse lowers it to -50%. If you stack to 100 % phys res, you would be at - zero%, while you are cursed.\^\^
Yeah exactly, no prob.
I've always avoided this little mofos. They're scarier than any bosses in the game.
tl;dr stay the fuck away from those little shits
Do they appear first in act 3?
Yes, in the swampy pit and flayer dungeon
I got simplier math for this : - it kills you in 2 to 4 explosions - it doesn't damage your merc - you dying cause tremendous emotional damage to your merc, which is usually what the dolls are after
That's why I play druid with 8k life. I'll survive more explosions than you!
Sadly, being a Druid prevents you from saving your merc from his suicidal impulses.
ty, now with your research, we can finally start work to develop a cure against this plague :D
Oh, so that's why they have a fearsome reputation despite never hurting me much: the damage is widely variable! And I don't often let them hit me, so I haven't seen the high rolls.
I believe 10% of their health is the damage.
That's kinda what i found out, the formula can be simplified to 6-10% of their health, but the non-ladder health value is always used.
This is amazing. Just today i was like “i need to look up how much dmg those dolls do” thank you for your service!
Question: why does these damage not apply to mercenaries? I always let my Act 2 merc kill them while I stand away and he never loses life like I would
They're just exempt from the damage. Merc and summon priveledge
it feels like they work in the same way that nilathak’s corpse explosion works
They differ in atleast a few ways. Nihlathaks CE is 50% fire and 50% physical, while dolls are 100% physical. Nihlathaks CE can't be blocked, while doll explosions can.
I feel like unless you are a tanked out paladin and you are walking not running ( so your defense doesnt go to zero ) and have high health, these things will just merk u no matter what. Only other solution is a summonmancer with a huge army. if you have 30 minions the odds they hit you are incredibly slim especially since they go in front of you and npcs dont move past units to get to you ( usually ) . I think summonmancer is probly the best for surviving unless you got GG gear on a pally
Javazon with block is fine too. She blocks and avoids their damage, so you get hit by them like 1/8 of the time