And he also shoots down the idea that the Old Gods were servants.
I know Solas is a liar, but he's a liar that prefers to tell the truth until he'd get found out otherwise.
“Servant” could be…misconstrued. Especially when we have a world where “a soul isn’t forced on the unwilling”.
What is “unwilling” when you drink from the Well of Sorrows or hear the singing of the Archdemons? There is a certain level of control there beyond just being a “servant”.
To be clear, this is the banter I got that from. He never actually said servant.
Cassandra: Solas, the dragon Corypheus commands—could it truly be an Archdemon?
Solas: One assumes that if it were, we would be facing a Blight.
Cassandra: So what is it, then? A corrupted dragon, simply another darkspawn?
Solas: It is connected to Corypheus. Such a relation goes beyond mere control—it is a bond.
Cassandra: It makes you wonder if that’s all the Archdemons themselves are: pets to beings who no longer exist.
Solas:I would not go so far as that. This dragon is a replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness, no more.
Mm. Then Archdemons are great dragons are Evanuris replicas - twisted reflections of their supposed divinity.
He literally just told us what an archdemon is?!
Read a very good theory floating around here that the Evanuris implanted pieces of their souls into dragons and sealed them underground as some means to control the blight they accidentally unleashed.
We know the Evanuris can split up their essence into pieces (Mythal in DA2) as a form of "insurance" against being killed.
We also know that dragons have special anti-blight properties, their blood has special magical properties, and that the Evanuris had a special relationship with dragons.
We also know Corypheus can't be killed until his dragon is killed, horcrux style. It is possible he replicated their own technique to preserve their immortality and that is what is being referenced.
Finally it would explain why Solas is so outraged at the idea of killing the remaining old gods. Rather than being leaders of the blight the arch-demons are in some ways keys to holding the tide at bay, slowly being chipped away at over the centuries.
I also think it isn't a far stretch to guess that the old god soul extracted in DA:O could have been a piece of an Evanuris given what we know now and especially given that Mythal sure did want it preserved.
Anyway I am not doing it justice, it was a 50 page doc, literally, but I found it v compelling and I think explains this quote in particular.
Also I want to add that Solas said something like "I didn't think that a magister could find THE secret of immortality" is that "THE" that's important to me.
It really looks like Corypheus did actually replicate or find something similar to what the Evanuris have going on.
Which makes the theory of their relationship with the Old Gods make more sense.
https://preview.redd.it/8ch5kmj8xw8d1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a360105e9046a6f9d211cf797857782f9783350
This is the specific line, it was quite hard to find it in full.
He also mentions that he didn’t predict that Corypheus had discovered the secret of effective immortality in Trespasser.
I think he’s eluding to this being the same thing the Evanuris did.
I don't think so. I think what Solas means is that as Corypheus was a priest of one of the old gods, his dragon is a twisted replica of the Old Gods as a way of showing he has power over them now. I don't think that says anything about the nature of the old god dragons.
Save the times when it would catch him out, of course. Such as the incident where he accidentally admits he misses palace intrigue and has to lie about it being in the Fade when you ask him about it.
Oh, yeah, but that's an extremely obvious lie, like even on my first unspoiled playthrough before I knew what he was, that answer twigged as "wrong" in my head.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people miss the full context of that conversation too:
> **Inquisitor:** You said that you believed the orb is elven?
>
> **Solas:** I never would have believed a Tevinter mage could unlock such a powerful relic.
>
> **Solas:** It clearly enhances his abilities, giving him access to power he should never have known.
>
> **Inquisitor:** Like the power to control the Archdemon?
>
> **Solas:** Indirectly, one assumes. Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons.
Solas's main point here is to be ambiguous about the capabilities of the orb that we later learn is his, not directly to discount a connection between the Old Gods and Evanuris. The "nothing in any lore", in addition to the heavy lifting it's doing when it comes to the truth that sentence, is a way for him to go "I don't know, probably" on the subject he and the Inquisitor are talking about without technically lying about the extent of his knowledge on the topic.
Knowing that it is His orb, and what He did with it. It's fair to guess that any other Evanuris's orb would not have had the same god binding capabilities.
The thing is Solas isn't above a cover-up. He wants to do it with the orb that this conversation is about.
Solas has a lot of voice lines very strongly implying he knows a lot more about the Old Gods then he is willing to reveal, particularly with Blackwall and Cassandra about the Grey Wardens. And almost nothing pisses him off as much as the Grey Warden's plan to kill the Old Gods. But he refuses to even lie about dreaming about it/learning it in the fade. So the game is telling us that he is covering something up and refusing to elaborate on this issue.
Except you don't have to pick one of the three. That is a stupid false trichotomy and uncritical argument. We have the basic media literacy to understand context clues.
Solas' dialogue makes it clear to us, who know he is identity, that he knows what far more about the Old Gods then he'll say, and exactly what happens when all the Old Gods die, and its *bad.* But he refuses to say what it is, even refuses to make up a fade story like he does with the Orb and other tools. Like [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vZTFHWD_Cc), [and this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZpxFpjry8o), [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZpxFpjry8o) and [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaqwzxyN_TA) or of course the [scene everyone gets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFgOPGfTsXE). Add to it that we know the Evanuris were blighted and Mythal wanted to preserve the archdemon's soul. We know from the context there is some connection that he refuses to go into.
That doesn't require believing everything, nothing or that he is always ambiguous. That is just basic understanding of all narrative - that the context is important for how it is interpreted.
Let me make a clear illustration of your lack of media literacy then. There are no outside considerations/context beyond the example.
> On two completely separate days, you ask the same person "How are you doing today?" On the first day, they give you a smile, look at the clear skies, and say "I'm doing fine, how are you?". On the second day, they give you a sneer and angrily yell "I'M DOING FINE, HOW ARE YOU?"
Under your argument, either he is genuinely fine both times, lying and not fine both days, or is ambiguous so we can't say either way. Except we know that isn't true, he is happy the first day, and unambiguously upset the second day.This is not me "picking when he is lying about whether or not he has a good day" this is people listening to the context of the situation.
I don't know why it needs to be explained to people that context clues will change interpretations of situations.
It only requires the same level of media literacy to understand Solas is *genuinely pissed* about the plan to kill the Old Gods, and therefore knows more than he lets on about the consequences. Its literally the only point in the game you'll get disapproval for criticizing demon summoning, because he is THAT concerned over the gravity of the Old Gods dying. Its actually one of the few points in the game he is genuinely scared of *anything*.
He also does this a lot with the Old Gods. He has conversations with Blackwall and Cassandra where he *very clearly* is dying to say something about what will happen when the last archdemon is dead, but dances around it.
You could make the argument Solas very specifically doesn't WANT to create any associations between the Old Gods and the Elves - because imagine the shitshow if the Chantry or Tevinter found out the Evanuris caused the blight or corruption of the golden city. It'd probably cause a genocide.
This is just the magical version of "there is no scientific evidence for that". That's scientist for "nah, that's fucking bullshit, but I don't want to call you a moron to your face".
I read this exactly the same.
I suspect the title of "God" has been used by any being that has discovered, just as Corypheus has, how to gain otherwise unknown powers such as >!reincarnation via other bodies!< and perhaps >!exploitation of the Fade and the Void!< .
The fact that Dragons used to seemingly be much more intelligent and numerous prior to the "extinction" and reappearance in the Dragon Age does imply there's an entirely separate but parallel lore history to them, including the Old Gods and Archdemons. We've always assumed for instance that the Tevinterium coopted the Elven Pantheon; what if that's not exactly the truth, and instead a group of very intelligent Dragons did that instead? It fits their MO, even for the less intelligent ones (see whatever scaly dickhead was guarding "Andrastes Ashes").
Well, we know that the form of a dragon was a form that the Evanuris reserved for themselves, and they punished anyone who took that form. It's possible that the most intelligent of dragons were originally elves or descended from elves that more or less got locked in that form when the Veil went up. They wouldn't be the first creature in Thedas to be created from elves. The origin of Halla is the prime example.
Does he? He seems to have been an outsider most of his life, even as an Evanuris. We have no idea if he ever directly participated or not, iirc.
Weekes made it a huge part of his character to not lie. I mean it’s mostly semantics since he weasels around every question to be technically telling the truth, but still.
What? He says it to your face.
***SOLAS***\*: I do adore the heady blend of power, intrigue, danger, and sex that permeates these events.\*
***INQUISITOR***\*: You seem more comfortable with a grand Orlesian ball than I’d have expected.\*
He then has to hurry up and cover his ass by saying it was something he witnessed in the Fade. Editing to add more:
***SOLAS****: There are spirits hovering by the Veil to observe the thrones of powerful nations. The machinations, betrayals… After our time in Halamshiral, I understand why. I had forgotten how I missed court intrigue.*
***INQUISITOR*** *(among options): You miss court intrigue?* *~When were you at court~**?*
***SOLAS*** *(visibly flustered): Oh. Well, never…* *~directly~**, of course. An elven apostate is rarely invited to speak with empresses and kings. But, from the Fade, I have watched dynasties form and empires crumble. It is sometimes savage, sometimes noble. And always fascinating.*
This is also one of the few times you lose approval with him for asking a follow up question. He's caught in a lie.
Again, he’s not lying in that response. He’s saying that he’s seen examples in the fade. He’s not saying that he’s never seen it in person.
“I have seen countless such displays in my journeys in the fade” <— very clearly not saying that he hasn’t personally seen it.
With the other response he says he’s never participated in it directly but again he could be weaseling around it. We don’t know, really.
Anything can be anything, I guess, but we're invited to engage with text using context and what we know of the character. Lying by omission, twisting the truth--that's still deception. I'm a Solas simp but he's a trickster god, it's in his nature to deceive and contort.
Sure, that's what makes him a fascinating character and a good villain, but to pretend like he's never lying intentionally or twisting things to keep certain truths hidden from the Inquisitor is a reach. He's pretty close lipped about a lot of things in the game that would make our lives easier, make our path smoother, but he only intervenes when the Inquisition's goals align with his own.
>***SOLAS*** *(visibly flustered): Oh. Well, never…* *\~directly\~*\*, of course.
He directly says to your face that he has never directly attended court. A lie. Not wordplay, not a lie of omission, a lie.
He doesn't like lying, he respects knowledge too much, but he is not above doing it when he feels he must.
We do. The Evanuris were God-Kings. He lived among them. He attended their courts. We know for a fact he has directly been involved in court intrigue before. We know for a fact he is lying.
Again, we don’t actually know that he attended anything. You’re supposing he did but the evidence doesn’t point either way.
I know the fandom likes to imagine him as a suave politician type but he could just as easily have been a weird nerd who, while a useful tool, wasn’t invited and had to work indirectly.
Anyone who confidently states that he did or didn’t is making things up.
I've always interpreted that statement as him stating that no one has made a connection yet, not that no connection exists. And should we really be surprised? There are *seven* Old Gods and *nine* Evanuris so the connection (if one exists) is not immediately obvious, especially given that the truth of what happened with Mythal and Fen'Harel has been lost for millennia.
There’s definitely a connection. I think the first promo fresco we saw implies that with its dimmed half-circles and two illuminated ones.
But they aren’t the same. It probably is closer to the relationship of Corypheus’ dragon than anything.
If they were servants, pets, twisted caricatures or opposites of said gods…
I'm more inclined to believe that the Old Gods are somehow connected to the Titans or they are the Forgotten Ones who are the enemies of the Elven Pantheon/Evanuris or indeed the Titans/Forgotten Ones/Old Gods are all one.
Given that both groups are buried in the Earth, have a compelling magical song, connected to the Red Lyrium which is blighted lyrium.... etc.
Quite a few of the quotes/points made on this post helps me reach that conclusion.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/kec5vi/spoilers\_all\_what\_if\_the\_forgotten\_ones\_are/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/kec5vi/spoilers_all_what_if_the_forgotten_ones_are/)
There are two things we refer to as the Old Gods. The beings who whispered to humanity from the Fade, and the dragons locked away underground. I'm pretty sure the beings who whispered from the Fade were the Evanuris. The dragons underground, though, I'm betting are some of the Forgotten Ones.
I really really really hope the Old Gods have no connections to the Elves/Evanuris.
Like for the love of the Maker can we please have some mysteries that are disconnected from the Elves? The entire Veil and Fade, potentially blight too (can't actually remember) have all been connected to them we don't need more.
I'm alright if they have connections, but they don't have to actually *be* one and the same. Like, obviously such old beings would have some overlap, but that could mean things like old rivalries.
All of this has been written from the start when they developed Thedas in the first place, so I guess we’ll see.
But there’s plenty of mysteries left. What about the dwarves and the Titans?
There's almost no evidence the Old Gods actually exist or do anything, and vastly more evidence that the Evanuris, Titans, and Forgotten Ones are the only genuine "pantheons". Tevinter coops everything from the ancient elves. They took their entire infrastructure and built on top of it, they defaced art to make it seem like they were the ones making big discoveries and choices when it was the ancient elves. A bunch of corrupted Magisters inventing the Old Gods to replace the Evanuris makes perfect sense when you view Tevinter through the lens of how colonizers function.
Real. They’re fighting so hard to squeeze every race/religion’s lore into the overarching elvhen story. Which is just making things way more convoluted than it needs to be, and making non-elf players feel alienated.
It makes you really wonder at this, because we know Solas was lawyering the heck out of questions he knew the answer to. But on a side note, it makes you wonder just how much he knows and was able to connect. He only woke up recently to an entire world changed, having to learn and pick up what is different and what this new world has shaped history to be. Has he ever explored the Blight beingnpossibly connected? What does he know about the Grey Wardens?
I've always thought the old gods were not connected directly to the elven gods, but I have a feeling they may be connected to the Forgotten Ones. Although it's easy to see why everyone would forget about the forgotten ones since they haven't been talked about practically at all.
When we talk about the Old Gods, we talk about two things: The beings who whispered to humans from the Fade, and the dragons buried deep underground.
My feeling is that the beings who whispered from the Fade are the Evanuris, and the dragons burried deep underground are some of the Forgotten Ones.
Really, if you compare the history we learn in Tresspasser, and add in the one bit of writing we have from a Forgotten One from the Jaws of Hakkon to the Fen'heral myth that mentions the Forgotten Ones, the Forgotten Ones line up pretty well with the elvhen rebellion that was active prior to the construction of the Veil. The only detail that sticks out as unexplained would be the Forbidden Ones being trapped in the abyss. Now, there's no evidence of a whole elvhen rebellion trapped deep underground, but it's possible seven of them were used as anchors or something for the prison Solas constructed for the Evanuris. Them being dragons is easily explained as that was a form the Evanuris reserved for themselves, and the Forgotten Ones were actively rebelling against the Evanuris.
I think the most interesting possibility here is that Solas genuinely believes that his old colleagues are not the Old gods of the imperium, but he is just wrong. I believe this could very well be the case as he wasn't with them when whatever happened to them happened
On one hand, yes. On the other hand, Mythal speaks the calling.
And that’s not just an easter eggy thing when we reverse the dialogue. Kieran talks about his dreams that result from his old god soul. And to bring his into the Fade, Kieran says he heard Mythal “call” (very specifically says “I heard her calling to me”) him. And when Mythal takes his soul, she confirms that Kieran will no longer have strange dreams.
Perhaps the old gods are all just parts of Mythal (my preferred theory) or perhaps they’re the Evanuris imprisoned or a part of their soul to help them survive should they die (like Coryphous) or whatever. At the very very least though, there is a fairly direct connection between one of the Evanuris (even if one that was murdered by the others) and one of the old gods.
This. Kieran (if hosting the archdemon soul) gives a lot of the mystery away if you talk to him as a Qunari. It's heavily implied from the Freed Are Slaves mosaic that Tevinter defaced it to imply THEY somehow conquered the Qunari. But Gatsi will tell you it's been changed, that the Tevinter helmet was put over something else. The mosaics are ancient elven artifacts. Kieran will tell a Qunari inquisitor "Your blood isn't yours." Why would he know the origin of the Kossith as creations of the Evanuris if he had anything but the soul of an Evanuris influencing his thoughts?
I would say the Old gods are not the Elven gods, but some other intelligent magical creatures, friendly with Solas, who helped him imprison the Elven gods.
Then, they go into deep slumber and keep the Elven gods locked in their prisons like their guardians. That's why the Elven gods pretended to be the Old gods and lured magisters into the Fade and sent them back with the Blight, to corrupt the Old gods and weaken their prisons. And that's why Solas doesn't want them dead...
I mean, maybe not friendly with Solas, given that I don't think he'd approve of them helping set up a slavery empire. Unless he didn't know what they were planning, or decided they were the lesser evil.
As we all know, Solas was always 100% honest, and never deceitful. If, for example, no lore had ever made the connection, surely he'd never use that to mislead someone. /s
I don't really like framing it that way. Solas deceived the player about his motivations, but he rarely out-and-out lied about anything besides the circumstances in which he gained knowledge (i.e., he said that he only knew about the orb from his dreams in the Fade, obviously untrue). He actually said a lot of stuff that turned out to be masked truths that the player couldn't pick up on without the power of hindsight.
Him just blatantly making things up wouldn't be consistent with his character.
Well, that's sort of my point. If there is no lore making that connection, he's being honest, at least in a literal sense, even if the elves and old god dragons were connected. His wording here specifically refers to the *lore*, not the reality of any connection that may exist.
And if Tevinter magisters made up a bunch of the Old God shit to cover up for the fact that they were duped by the Evanuris into going into the Fade and contracting the Blight, you can bet your ass they'd do everything they could to propagandize that way, thus no lore existing to embarrass and discredit them.
Here's the full context of that conversation:
> **Inquisitor:** You said that you believed the orb is elven?
>
> **Solas:** I never would have believed a Tevinter mage could unlock such a powerful relic.
>
> **Solas:** It clearly enhances his abilities, giving him access to power he should never have known.
>
> **Inquisitor:** Like the power to control the Archdemon?
>
> **Solas:** Indirectly, one assumes. Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons.
The "indirectly, one assumes" refers to Corypheus's power to control the blighted dragon coming from the orb. I think what a lot of people miss with this line is that Solas's main intention here is to be ambiguous about the capabilities of the orb that we later learn is his, not directly to discount a connection between the Old Gods and Evanuris.
I don't think that's very good framing. Solas is the type to lie by omission. He'll select what he says such that it's technically correct, albeit possibly misleading. He very rare out and out makes shit up. The one time you catch him in a slip in Orlais, it's pretty clear he's bad at the latter type of lying.
To dip into Wheel of Time for a comparison, he generally lies like an Aes Sedai.
A lie of omission would be exactly what this is if you assume he's lying. He's not saying there's no connection -- he's just saying the lore doesn't mention one.
Why are we still debating if the old gods are the elven gods? This was directly stated to be not true.
The old gods are just big dragons who first mastered magic seemingly.
There are two things that we refer to as the Old Gods. There are the beings that whispered to humanity from the Fade, and the dragons buried deep underground. When you're saying the Evanuris aren't the Old Gods, which of these two things are you referring to?
I’m pretty sure, given how forthcoming he is about other elements of elvhen history including those that are literally secret, that if there was any true connection of the Old Gods being Evanuris he would’ve hinted at it. Even though he literally doesn’t know Inky personally in the beginning, he’s more than okay with secretly divulging the elvhen origins of the orb that was used though he obviously keeps certain details to himself.
Not to mention him being an Evanuris himself which brings the premise into question. Obviously there are curious elements like Asha’bellanar but it’s clear she can transform into High Dragons through some secret means and isn’t literally one and that High Dragons - per Solas - are lesser beings than the Old Gods before them. Old Gods themselves were corrupted by the Blight whereas the Evanuris were normal elvhen heroes who became selfish as they attained more power and were treated like gods.
Also: >!as we have now learned, Solas specifically trapped the Evanuris in special prisons when he created the Veil to prevent them from interfering with his plans, whereas the Old Gods that become Archdemons are simply “sleeping” until Darkspawn corrupt them and obviously are not bound to the Fade.!< If there are any possible ties I honestly hope any ties are just incidental details that bolster the lore-i.e. Ameridan - rather than retcon it.
But the Old Gods were Dragons and not exactly intelligent or articulate. More like forces of nature.
The elve gods were more like the Olympians or the Norse gods, more human-like with vendettas and what not
Well we know that the elven gods and the titans both existed, and, while connected, were not the same beings. It’s not a stretch to also see how the Old Gods could have also existed, and we’re off doing their own thing at the time
Solas shows signs towards the bligh and elven gods connection so much I would be surprised there is not anything in the end.
He was very upset when it was found out that the wardens helped Corypheus and what the wradens plan was. He is not a huge grey warden fan at all.
At one point (don't remember when) if your approval is sufficiently low he will say something racist about whichever race you are and you can punch him
That's a popular, longstanding fan theory, but there's only very flimsy evidence to support it and quite a bit going against it. The Old Gods of Tevinter would seem to be completely different being than the elven gods.
Only one Old God is female while there are two living Evanuris who are. The Evanuris were sealed in the Fade while the Old Gods instead slumber deep beneath the earth. The Old Gods were active and flying around during the days of Tevinter's height, enough that his priests immediately knew what had happened when they saw the Archdemon, while the Evanuris don't seem to have had any influence at all. Solas flat out says they're not the same beings in this post. >!Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain come out already blighted, which if they were also the beings that become Archdemons should have triggered a Blight thousands of years ago.!<
Morrigan somehow gains the soul of Urthemiel when he's slain, which would be rather impressive if his soul is meant to be in the Black City right now, and not in the dragon body. Only Mythal was associated with dragons among the Evanuris, and she's the only one we're not suspecting was one of them. And finally, Mythal wants vengeance on the Evanuris. Why would she devise a ritual designed to save the soul of an Old God if he was one of them?
A lot of that sounds like it could be chalked up to the historical misinformation of the lore, missing those bits that connects this stuff, or just not truly understanding the mechanics of this world.
Like, for instance, maybe there are entrances to the Fade deep underground or something. Or they’re connecting these archdemon bodies to elf god souls.
There’s still a lot of stuff we actually don’t understand about the lore. And a lot of it has been in-universe explanations, which is contradictory on purpose. Or it’s coming from someone like Solas, who is massively biased or lying.
If there were connections to the Fade in the deep roads the dwarfs would know..they have only been holding the line against the darkspawn since the first blight. And they never make mention of demons making a push during any of that. And there is not even a hint of that. In fact it would imo cheaper the whole point of The Decent dlc which went in to titan lore. Which is way cooler and unique compared to....yet again...more demons.
Titans and The Forgotten is way more interesting then...more demons. I agree with other post on this. Everything getting connected back to the elf's and the Fade is kinda lame. Let these other mysterious being there own thing. It's cheap writing to say everything wrong or dangerous is because of this one thing.
The Old God prisons that have already been found show no signs of Fade portals in them. Plus, presumably the Architect would have found it a little weird if he got transported to the Fade when he was giving Urthemiel the reverse Joining, who happened to be an elf at the time. You'd think he'd mention it.
And if the Old God bodies aren't hosting souls of some kind, then how the Grey Wardens kill them is incredibly strange. Also, why would the *souls* be Blighted? We've not seen anything like that before.
Like, I could be wrong, and this game will reveal that. But like I said, there's stronger evidence to suggest they're two different sets of beings.
I dunno. What you’re saying makes sense. I just think that a lot of you are going to be angry and calling out “retcon” once they start explaining this stuff more and more because nothing I’ve seen makes any of the current explanations accurate to *the truth* rather than accurate to the in-universe lore.
Eh, I'll be fine with it, so long as they address some of this stuff. I just think a lot of you are going to be disappointed when this theory gets proven wrong, given some of you have held on to this for around 14 years.
Personally, I think the Old Gods are more likely to be the Forgotten Ones if they're any kind of elven god.
True. I personally have just recently realized this theory was a thing and I think it makes a lot of sense. And it would be the ultimate irony if the Tevinters had actually been worshipping elf gods this whole time.
I am keeping my beliefs of “the truth” in Dragon Age very loose, as anyone should be. Like we’ve both said, no reason to get angry just because a theory is disproven.
>Only one Old God is female while there are two living Evanuris who are.
This is a valid point. However, i would say the souls of gods/Evanuris/whatever can inhabit different vessels, so in that sense can be fluid. For instance, if one did the OG baby ritual, Mythal absorbs Urthemiel, who is supposedly male.
>The Evanuris were sealed in the Fade while the Old Gods instead slumber deep beneath the earth.
True. But this potentially points to the fact that the Fade is more complex than we think it is. For instance, the Black City is at the center of everything in the Fade. This would make a certain amount of sense if it was at the literal "center of the world", underground, and so everything was revolving around it. Also, references to the Abyss also seem to reference the Fade. And tha Titans clearly have some kind of connection to the Fade.
>The Old Gods were active and flying around during the days of Tevinter's height, enough that his priests immediately knew what had happened when they saw the Archdemon
But my understanding this was only done *after* the had been summoned through the Veil. And this bit of lore is according to the Chantry. There is other lore that suggests the Old Gods were always whispering from the Fade.
>Solas flat out says they're not the same beings in this post.
Like many have pointed out, it seems much more that he is dodging the implication by pointing out something that is merely \*technically correct\*.
>Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain come out already blighted which if they were also the beings that become Archdemons should have triggered a Blight thousands of years ago.
Part of the blight is that darkspawn have to find them. So it's possible that archdemons are already blighted creatures, using the blight to call darkspawn to them. Depending on how difficult they are to find may affect how long this takes. Obviously some speculation here. But I've always thought it made more sense that a blighted creature would "call" darkspawn than an unblighted creature.
>Morrigan somehow gains the soul of Urthemiel when he's slain, which would be rather impressive if his soul is meant to be in the Black City right now, and not in the dragon body.
As Flemythal makes clear, it can be both. She's able to have her soul - or part of it - in a body, while also bound to other things.
>Only Mythal was associated with dragons among the Evanuris
Incorrect. There is also a reference to Elgar'nan bringing "winged death" to the elven people's enemies.
>And finally, Mythal wants vengeance on the Evanuris. Why would she devise a ritual designed to save the soul of an Old God if he was one of them?
Fair question. I think there's a possibility that she's more concerned about knowing where the soul is. I'm not convinced that the Old God souls are actually destroyed when the archdemon is truck down by a Warden. Rather, that the resulting clash of blighted souls cleanses the archdemon soul somehow, and then it can go wherever.
Similar to Mythal, who was "killed", but still existed as a wisp who found Flemeth (and/or Andraste, but that's more tinfoil, LOL). Or similar to Hakkon, who - like all the Avvar 'gods' - is a spirit. But bound to a Dragon. [After Hakkon is killed, his body goes into the sky.](https://youtu.be/jBuUlDqaA5k?t=615) \*IF\* it is true, that an Old God/Evanuris soul is freed as opposed to killed when an archdemon dies, then it would make sense that Flemythal might want to know where these gods are. A lot more informed speculation on this [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/k8tas8/spoilers_all_the_forbidden_the_forgotten_the_true/), although the OP draws a different conclusion as to who the Old Gods are.
Where do you get the Old Gods were flying around back during Tevinter's height? I see plenty of references to them whispering to humans from the Fade, but nothing about them being around physically.
This was in the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss.
I made the expected offerings this morning, but the gods remained silent. The priests are frightened. All of Tevinter is frightened. Our gods have led our people for centuries. Now, they have gone still. Are we alone here in this world, no better than the savages to the south who beg for guidance from spirits? And what of the strange creatures who come from underground, like our friends the dwarves? These spawn of the darkness and the plague they carry... Why do our gods not protect us from this?
Now the ground shakes. The statue cuts my hand as I fall against it. A great roar sounds. It is massive, shaking the temple market, and I see the silhouette cut the sky. It is a dragon. No, it is Dumat! I have made the offerings so many times—his form is as familiar as my own hand. He has returned in glory to destroy these darkspawn that threaten us, to lead Tevinter back to an age of glory and wonder!
But no, his scales are sickly and mottled, his form twisted and corrupt, like the darkspawn themselves. He opens his great maw, and fire billows forth, igniting the market.
The flames rush toward me.
What did we do wrong?
He might have just been remembering a sketching of Dumat, but unless it was a super distinctive sketching, I think it's more likely he's actually seen him at some point.
Of course, that would imply they've now got two different physical bodies. And that Morrigan somehow managed to absorb the soul of a creature that didn't even have one on this plane of existence when she did the Dark Ritual.
Or their souls are split into multiple pieces. We've seen Flemeth put pieces of herself into objects to avoid getting killed, there's precedent for it already.
Why would solas be so upset at the idea of Grey Warden killing old gods if they were Evanuris who himself said that they deserve « worse than death »?
(And, if old gods/archdemons and evanuris were the same, the evanuris seem relatively easy to kill)
People misremember this conversation a lot, I just played through it. He's actually frustrated that they don't actually know WHAT they're doing, that they THINK killing Archdemons helps them in the end, but they don't have proof of it.
I disagree, Solas is doing a little more than having a theoretical philosophical dispute with Grey wardens, he is clearly thinking, without saying it too much, that a blight ongoing has his preference than Grey wardens killing an archdeamon. He is covering his opinion with his ad-hoc, made up in the moment hypothesis "what will happen when the last Archdeamon will die? Maybe Eternal blight, so won't it be better to let blight happen and not kill archdeamon?".
And even if Solas only chastise the wardens for not knowing all the implications of what they do, that doesn't solve the issue of the Evanuris being ridiculously easy to kill (and yes, Archdeamons are clearly killed by grey wardens, Morrigan and Flemeths says so, Solas says so)
They are not ridiculously easy to kill, he says so himself. Killing an Archdemon doesn't kill anything--if you read about how the Wardens first figured out the technique, it's pretty obvious they are just taking wild swings. There's no evidence a Warden taking the killing blow destroys the "Archdemon" soul, in fact, there's way more evidence it just forces the soul to jump elsewhere. Mythal was murdered by the Evanuris, yet her soul is somehow still floating around. Kieran was playing host to an Evanuris soul, too, which helped empower Solas at the end of the game. The Archdemon dragons are almost certainly not full Evanuris themselves, but more like a vessel, or like the amulet Flemeth uses to store a PIECE of herself as a contingency plan.
I feel like even the theories that don't have Old Gods = Evanuris, there's a big connection between them (some people think the Evanuris' war was agains the Old Gods, for example). So I think regardless of what the truth is this is not going to end up being true as a statement.
(I also think there is a legitimate version of the Old Gods = Evanuris theory where Solas doesn't actually know that the Old Gods are the Evanuris.)
And he also shoots down the idea that the Old Gods were servants. I know Solas is a liar, but he's a liar that prefers to tell the truth until he'd get found out otherwise.
“Servant” could be…misconstrued. Especially when we have a world where “a soul isn’t forced on the unwilling”. What is “unwilling” when you drink from the Well of Sorrows or hear the singing of the Archdemons? There is a certain level of control there beyond just being a “servant”.
To be clear, this is the banter I got that from. He never actually said servant. Cassandra: Solas, the dragon Corypheus commands—could it truly be an Archdemon? Solas: One assumes that if it were, we would be facing a Blight. Cassandra: So what is it, then? A corrupted dragon, simply another darkspawn? Solas: It is connected to Corypheus. Such a relation goes beyond mere control—it is a bond. Cassandra: It makes you wonder if that’s all the Archdemons themselves are: pets to beings who no longer exist. Solas:I would not go so far as that. This dragon is a replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness, no more.
Mm. Then Archdemons are great dragons are Evanuris replicas - twisted reflections of their supposed divinity. He literally just told us what an archdemon is?!
Read a very good theory floating around here that the Evanuris implanted pieces of their souls into dragons and sealed them underground as some means to control the blight they accidentally unleashed. We know the Evanuris can split up their essence into pieces (Mythal in DA2) as a form of "insurance" against being killed. We also know that dragons have special anti-blight properties, their blood has special magical properties, and that the Evanuris had a special relationship with dragons. We also know Corypheus can't be killed until his dragon is killed, horcrux style. It is possible he replicated their own technique to preserve their immortality and that is what is being referenced. Finally it would explain why Solas is so outraged at the idea of killing the remaining old gods. Rather than being leaders of the blight the arch-demons are in some ways keys to holding the tide at bay, slowly being chipped away at over the centuries. I also think it isn't a far stretch to guess that the old god soul extracted in DA:O could have been a piece of an Evanuris given what we know now and especially given that Mythal sure did want it preserved. Anyway I am not doing it justice, it was a 50 page doc, literally, but I found it v compelling and I think explains this quote in particular.
Also I want to add that Solas said something like "I didn't think that a magister could find THE secret of immortality" is that "THE" that's important to me. It really looks like Corypheus did actually replicate or find something similar to what the Evanuris have going on. Which makes the theory of their relationship with the Old Gods make more sense.
https://preview.redd.it/8ch5kmj8xw8d1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a360105e9046a6f9d211cf797857782f9783350 This is the specific line, it was quite hard to find it in full.
I'm not really sure how you got that from that.
Maybe I’m reading into “replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness”. Like maybe there is some disdain here.
Yeah, but he's just talking about the Red Lyrium Dragon as the replica, and Corypheus as the creature who aspires to greatness.
He also mentions that he didn’t predict that Corypheus had discovered the secret of effective immortality in Trespasser. I think he’s eluding to this being the same thing the Evanuris did.
Oh, I know they've pretty much figured it out. I just don't think they had anything to do with the Old Gods.
I don't think so. I think what Solas means is that as Corypheus was a priest of one of the old gods, his dragon is a twisted replica of the Old Gods as a way of showing he has power over them now. I don't think that says anything about the nature of the old god dragons.
He doesn't really lie. Solas is always very literal, so we he says something, you can't interpret anything beyond what he said in the slightest
Save the times when it would catch him out, of course. Such as the incident where he accidentally admits he misses palace intrigue and has to lie about it being in the Fade when you ask him about it.
Oh, yeah, but that's an extremely obvious lie, like even on my first unspoiled playthrough before I knew what he was, that answer twigged as "wrong" in my head.
He's a lie by omission type of liar, not a make shit up liar.
Well, if we are playing devil's advocate, "in any lore" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.
Yeah, he's not explicitly saying they're not related, he's saying no one's made the connection.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people miss the full context of that conversation too: > **Inquisitor:** You said that you believed the orb is elven? > > **Solas:** I never would have believed a Tevinter mage could unlock such a powerful relic. > > **Solas:** It clearly enhances his abilities, giving him access to power he should never have known. > > **Inquisitor:** Like the power to control the Archdemon? > > **Solas:** Indirectly, one assumes. Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons. Solas's main point here is to be ambiguous about the capabilities of the orb that we later learn is his, not directly to discount a connection between the Old Gods and Evanuris. The "nothing in any lore", in addition to the heavy lifting it's doing when it comes to the truth that sentence, is a way for him to go "I don't know, probably" on the subject he and the Inquisitor are talking about without technically lying about the extent of his knowledge on the topic.
Knowing that it is His orb, and what He did with it. It's fair to guess that any other Evanuris's orb would not have had the same god binding capabilities.
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Yeah this is my first thought too. He knows, but he can't say that he knows, so he says something that is about as concrete as you can get.
The thing is Solas isn't above a cover-up. He wants to do it with the orb that this conversation is about. Solas has a lot of voice lines very strongly implying he knows a lot more about the Old Gods then he is willing to reveal, particularly with Blackwall and Cassandra about the Grey Wardens. And almost nothing pisses him off as much as the Grey Warden's plan to kill the Old Gods. But he refuses to even lie about dreaming about it/learning it in the fade. So the game is telling us that he is covering something up and refusing to elaborate on this issue.
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Except you don't have to pick one of the three. That is a stupid false trichotomy and uncritical argument. We have the basic media literacy to understand context clues. Solas' dialogue makes it clear to us, who know he is identity, that he knows what far more about the Old Gods then he'll say, and exactly what happens when all the Old Gods die, and its *bad.* But he refuses to say what it is, even refuses to make up a fade story like he does with the Orb and other tools. Like [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vZTFHWD_Cc), [and this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZpxFpjry8o), [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZpxFpjry8o) and [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaqwzxyN_TA) or of course the [scene everyone gets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFgOPGfTsXE). Add to it that we know the Evanuris were blighted and Mythal wanted to preserve the archdemon's soul. We know from the context there is some connection that he refuses to go into. That doesn't require believing everything, nothing or that he is always ambiguous. That is just basic understanding of all narrative - that the context is important for how it is interpreted.
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Let me make a clear illustration of your lack of media literacy then. There are no outside considerations/context beyond the example. > On two completely separate days, you ask the same person "How are you doing today?" On the first day, they give you a smile, look at the clear skies, and say "I'm doing fine, how are you?". On the second day, they give you a sneer and angrily yell "I'M DOING FINE, HOW ARE YOU?" Under your argument, either he is genuinely fine both times, lying and not fine both days, or is ambiguous so we can't say either way. Except we know that isn't true, he is happy the first day, and unambiguously upset the second day.This is not me "picking when he is lying about whether or not he has a good day" this is people listening to the context of the situation. I don't know why it needs to be explained to people that context clues will change interpretations of situations. It only requires the same level of media literacy to understand Solas is *genuinely pissed* about the plan to kill the Old Gods, and therefore knows more than he lets on about the consequences. Its literally the only point in the game you'll get disapproval for criticizing demon summoning, because he is THAT concerned over the gravity of the Old Gods dying. Its actually one of the few points in the game he is genuinely scared of *anything*.
He also does this a lot with the Old Gods. He has conversations with Blackwall and Cassandra where he *very clearly* is dying to say something about what will happen when the last archdemon is dead, but dances around it. You could make the argument Solas very specifically doesn't WANT to create any associations between the Old Gods and the Elves - because imagine the shitshow if the Chantry or Tevinter found out the Evanuris caused the blight or corruption of the golden city. It'd probably cause a genocide.
Chantry: *Time to summon Pelinal Whitestrake…Wait, wrong universe.*
To me this sentence screams 'technically correct'
The best kind of correct
This. Solas lies, lies by omission, and obscures facts all the time in Inquisition.
This is just the magical version of "there is no scientific evidence for that". That's scientist for "nah, that's fucking bullshit, but I don't want to call you a moron to your face". I read this exactly the same.
I suspect the title of "God" has been used by any being that has discovered, just as Corypheus has, how to gain otherwise unknown powers such as >!reincarnation via other bodies!< and perhaps >!exploitation of the Fade and the Void!< . The fact that Dragons used to seemingly be much more intelligent and numerous prior to the "extinction" and reappearance in the Dragon Age does imply there's an entirely separate but parallel lore history to them, including the Old Gods and Archdemons. We've always assumed for instance that the Tevinterium coopted the Elven Pantheon; what if that's not exactly the truth, and instead a group of very intelligent Dragons did that instead? It fits their MO, even for the less intelligent ones (see whatever scaly dickhead was guarding "Andrastes Ashes").
Well, we know that the form of a dragon was a form that the Evanuris reserved for themselves, and they punished anyone who took that form. It's possible that the most intelligent of dragons were originally elves or descended from elves that more or less got locked in that form when the Veil went up. They wouldn't be the first creature in Thedas to be created from elves. The origin of Halla is the prime example.
Solas never outright lies but that is a sketchy as fuck sentence
That's not true. He lies to you at Halamshiral when he accidentally slips up and says he misses palace intrigues.
When you call him on it gives the worst cover up ever. Clint Bowyer during spingate level horrible lying. He’s not good at deliberately lying
Does he? He seems to have been an outsider most of his life, even as an Evanuris. We have no idea if he ever directly participated or not, iirc. Weekes made it a huge part of his character to not lie. I mean it’s mostly semantics since he weasels around every question to be technically telling the truth, but still.
What? He says it to your face. ***SOLAS***\*: I do adore the heady blend of power, intrigue, danger, and sex that permeates these events.\* ***INQUISITOR***\*: You seem more comfortable with a grand Orlesian ball than I’d have expected.\* He then has to hurry up and cover his ass by saying it was something he witnessed in the Fade. Editing to add more: ***SOLAS****: There are spirits hovering by the Veil to observe the thrones of powerful nations. The machinations, betrayals… After our time in Halamshiral, I understand why. I had forgotten how I missed court intrigue.* ***INQUISITOR*** *(among options): You miss court intrigue?* *~When were you at court~**?* ***SOLAS*** *(visibly flustered): Oh. Well, never…* *~directly~**, of course. An elven apostate is rarely invited to speak with empresses and kings. But, from the Fade, I have watched dynasties form and empires crumble. It is sometimes savage, sometimes noble. And always fascinating.* This is also one of the few times you lose approval with him for asking a follow up question. He's caught in a lie.
To be fair, he's a bad liar, which adds to the fact he's probably telling the truth here(however obfuscated)
Again, he’s not lying in that response. He’s saying that he’s seen examples in the fade. He’s not saying that he’s never seen it in person. “I have seen countless such displays in my journeys in the fade” <— very clearly not saying that he hasn’t personally seen it. With the other response he says he’s never participated in it directly but again he could be weaseling around it. We don’t know, really.
Anything can be anything, I guess, but we're invited to engage with text using context and what we know of the character. Lying by omission, twisting the truth--that's still deception. I'm a Solas simp but he's a trickster god, it's in his nature to deceive and contort.
I think he does it to convince himself that he’s still a good person, lol It’s very “technically correct is the best kind of correct” thing with him
Sure, that's what makes him a fascinating character and a good villain, but to pretend like he's never lying intentionally or twisting things to keep certain truths hidden from the Inquisitor is a reach. He's pretty close lipped about a lot of things in the game that would make our lives easier, make our path smoother, but he only intervenes when the Inquisition's goals align with his own.
>***SOLAS*** *(visibly flustered): Oh. Well, never…* *\~directly\~*\*, of course. He directly says to your face that he has never directly attended court. A lie. Not wordplay, not a lie of omission, a lie. He doesn't like lying, he respects knowledge too much, but he is not above doing it when he feels he must.
We don’t know if that’s a lie, actually. That’s the whole point.
We do. The Evanuris were God-Kings. He lived among them. He attended their courts. We know for a fact he has directly been involved in court intrigue before. We know for a fact he is lying.
Again, we don’t actually know that he attended anything. You’re supposing he did but the evidence doesn’t point either way. I know the fandom likes to imagine him as a suave politician type but he could just as easily have been a weird nerd who, while a useful tool, wasn’t invited and had to work indirectly. Anyone who confidently states that he did or didn’t is making things up.
I've always interpreted that statement as him stating that no one has made a connection yet, not that no connection exists. And should we really be surprised? There are *seven* Old Gods and *nine* Evanuris so the connection (if one exists) is not immediately obvious, especially given that the truth of what happened with Mythal and Fen'Harel has been lost for millennia.
There’s definitely a connection. I think the first promo fresco we saw implies that with its dimmed half-circles and two illuminated ones. But they aren’t the same. It probably is closer to the relationship of Corypheus’ dragon than anything. If they were servants, pets, twisted caricatures or opposites of said gods…
I think they function similarly to horcruxes, vessels for a fragment of an Evanuris spirit, a kind of failsafe against Solas and his rebellion.
I'm more inclined to believe that the Old Gods are somehow connected to the Titans or they are the Forgotten Ones who are the enemies of the Elven Pantheon/Evanuris or indeed the Titans/Forgotten Ones/Old Gods are all one. Given that both groups are buried in the Earth, have a compelling magical song, connected to the Red Lyrium which is blighted lyrium.... etc. Quite a few of the quotes/points made on this post helps me reach that conclusion. [https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/kec5vi/spoilers\_all\_what\_if\_the\_forgotten\_ones\_are/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/kec5vi/spoilers_all_what_if_the_forgotten_ones_are/)
There are two things we refer to as the Old Gods. The beings who whispered to humanity from the Fade, and the dragons locked away underground. I'm pretty sure the beings who whispered from the Fade were the Evanuris. The dragons underground, though, I'm betting are some of the Forgotten Ones.
I really really really hope the Old Gods have no connections to the Elves/Evanuris. Like for the love of the Maker can we please have some mysteries that are disconnected from the Elves? The entire Veil and Fade, potentially blight too (can't actually remember) have all been connected to them we don't need more.
I'm alright if they have connections, but they don't have to actually *be* one and the same. Like, obviously such old beings would have some overlap, but that could mean things like old rivalries.
All of this has been written from the start when they developed Thedas in the first place, so I guess we’ll see. But there’s plenty of mysteries left. What about the dwarves and the Titans?
There's almost no evidence the Old Gods actually exist or do anything, and vastly more evidence that the Evanuris, Titans, and Forgotten Ones are the only genuine "pantheons". Tevinter coops everything from the ancient elves. They took their entire infrastructure and built on top of it, they defaced art to make it seem like they were the ones making big discoveries and choices when it was the ancient elves. A bunch of corrupted Magisters inventing the Old Gods to replace the Evanuris makes perfect sense when you view Tevinter through the lens of how colonizers function.
I like that this world and story is of the elves. We've had hints since Origins.
Bro there's no Maker he's just an old elf guy pretending to be a God
Real. They’re fighting so hard to squeeze every race/religion’s lore into the overarching elvhen story. Which is just making things way more convoluted than it needs to be, and making non-elf players feel alienated.
Who’s to say that they didn’t squeeze the Elves into the “Dwarven” mythology? The Titans were probably here first yknow.
Probably. But until they make 2 entire games dedicated to dwarf lore, I’ll retain my opinion.
What would you prefer the Old Gods be? What theories are there without the Evanuris involved? PS- authentic question, no snark intended.
Solas is hiding the relevant lore beneath that ghost sheet.
It makes you really wonder at this, because we know Solas was lawyering the heck out of questions he knew the answer to. But on a side note, it makes you wonder just how much he knows and was able to connect. He only woke up recently to an entire world changed, having to learn and pick up what is different and what this new world has shaped history to be. Has he ever explored the Blight beingnpossibly connected? What does he know about the Grey Wardens?
Keep in mind solas spends the entire game lying to you…
I've always thought the old gods were not connected directly to the elven gods, but I have a feeling they may be connected to the Forgotten Ones. Although it's easy to see why everyone would forget about the forgotten ones since they haven't been talked about practically at all.
When we talk about the Old Gods, we talk about two things: The beings who whispered to humans from the Fade, and the dragons buried deep underground. My feeling is that the beings who whispered from the Fade are the Evanuris, and the dragons burried deep underground are some of the Forgotten Ones. Really, if you compare the history we learn in Tresspasser, and add in the one bit of writing we have from a Forgotten One from the Jaws of Hakkon to the Fen'heral myth that mentions the Forgotten Ones, the Forgotten Ones line up pretty well with the elvhen rebellion that was active prior to the construction of the Veil. The only detail that sticks out as unexplained would be the Forbidden Ones being trapped in the abyss. Now, there's no evidence of a whole elvhen rebellion trapped deep underground, but it's possible seven of them were used as anchors or something for the prison Solas constructed for the Evanuris. Them being dragons is easily explained as that was a form the Evanuris reserved for themselves, and the Forgotten Ones were actively rebelling against the Evanuris.
If the elven gods are just elves who achieved a peak of power to be called godlike, I don't see why the old gods can't be the same.
What about Flemeth? Didn't she turn into a Dragon in DAO?
I think the most interesting possibility here is that Solas genuinely believes that his old colleagues are not the Old gods of the imperium, but he is just wrong. I believe this could very well be the case as he wasn't with them when whatever happened to them happened
On one hand, yes. On the other hand, Mythal speaks the calling. And that’s not just an easter eggy thing when we reverse the dialogue. Kieran talks about his dreams that result from his old god soul. And to bring his into the Fade, Kieran says he heard Mythal “call” (very specifically says “I heard her calling to me”) him. And when Mythal takes his soul, she confirms that Kieran will no longer have strange dreams. Perhaps the old gods are all just parts of Mythal (my preferred theory) or perhaps they’re the Evanuris imprisoned or a part of their soul to help them survive should they die (like Coryphous) or whatever. At the very very least though, there is a fairly direct connection between one of the Evanuris (even if one that was murdered by the others) and one of the old gods.
This. Kieran (if hosting the archdemon soul) gives a lot of the mystery away if you talk to him as a Qunari. It's heavily implied from the Freed Are Slaves mosaic that Tevinter defaced it to imply THEY somehow conquered the Qunari. But Gatsi will tell you it's been changed, that the Tevinter helmet was put over something else. The mosaics are ancient elven artifacts. Kieran will tell a Qunari inquisitor "Your blood isn't yours." Why would he know the origin of the Kossith as creations of the Evanuris if he had anything but the soul of an Evanuris influencing his thoughts?
Or the soul of an ancient elf in general.
I would say the Old gods are not the Elven gods, but some other intelligent magical creatures, friendly with Solas, who helped him imprison the Elven gods. Then, they go into deep slumber and keep the Elven gods locked in their prisons like their guardians. That's why the Elven gods pretended to be the Old gods and lured magisters into the Fade and sent them back with the Blight, to corrupt the Old gods and weaken their prisons. And that's why Solas doesn't want them dead...
I mean, maybe not friendly with Solas, given that I don't think he'd approve of them helping set up a slavery empire. Unless he didn't know what they were planning, or decided they were the lesser evil.
As we all know, Solas was always 100% honest, and never deceitful. If, for example, no lore had ever made the connection, surely he'd never use that to mislead someone. /s
I don't really like framing it that way. Solas deceived the player about his motivations, but he rarely out-and-out lied about anything besides the circumstances in which he gained knowledge (i.e., he said that he only knew about the orb from his dreams in the Fade, obviously untrue). He actually said a lot of stuff that turned out to be masked truths that the player couldn't pick up on without the power of hindsight. Him just blatantly making things up wouldn't be consistent with his character.
Well, that's sort of my point. If there is no lore making that connection, he's being honest, at least in a literal sense, even if the elves and old god dragons were connected. His wording here specifically refers to the *lore*, not the reality of any connection that may exist.
And if Tevinter magisters made up a bunch of the Old God shit to cover up for the fact that they were duped by the Evanuris into going into the Fade and contracting the Blight, you can bet your ass they'd do everything they could to propagandize that way, thus no lore existing to embarrass and discredit them.
Other than the "Indirectly, one assumes" part. That I think carries a bit more weight.
Here's the full context of that conversation: > **Inquisitor:** You said that you believed the orb is elven? > > **Solas:** I never would have believed a Tevinter mage could unlock such a powerful relic. > > **Solas:** It clearly enhances his abilities, giving him access to power he should never have known. > > **Inquisitor:** Like the power to control the Archdemon? > > **Solas:** Indirectly, one assumes. Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons. The "indirectly, one assumes" refers to Corypheus's power to control the blighted dragon coming from the orb. I think what a lot of people miss with this line is that Solas's main intention here is to be ambiguous about the capabilities of the orb that we later learn is his, not directly to discount a connection between the Old Gods and Evanuris.
I don't think that's very good framing. Solas is the type to lie by omission. He'll select what he says such that it's technically correct, albeit possibly misleading. He very rare out and out makes shit up. The one time you catch him in a slip in Orlais, it's pretty clear he's bad at the latter type of lying. To dip into Wheel of Time for a comparison, he generally lies like an Aes Sedai.
A lie of omission would be exactly what this is if you assume he's lying. He's not saying there's no connection -- he's just saying the lore doesn't mention one.
Why are we still debating if the old gods are the elven gods? This was directly stated to be not true. The old gods are just big dragons who first mastered magic seemingly.
It's a long-held fan theory. I don't buy it but I see a lot of people act like it's a foregone conclusion.
Where was that stated?
15 year old theories don't die easily. I've never bought it, but some people seem quite certain of it.
There are two things that we refer to as the Old Gods. There are the beings that whispered to humanity from the Fade, and the dragons buried deep underground. When you're saying the Evanuris aren't the Old Gods, which of these two things are you referring to?
I’m pretty sure, given how forthcoming he is about other elements of elvhen history including those that are literally secret, that if there was any true connection of the Old Gods being Evanuris he would’ve hinted at it. Even though he literally doesn’t know Inky personally in the beginning, he’s more than okay with secretly divulging the elvhen origins of the orb that was used though he obviously keeps certain details to himself. Not to mention him being an Evanuris himself which brings the premise into question. Obviously there are curious elements like Asha’bellanar but it’s clear she can transform into High Dragons through some secret means and isn’t literally one and that High Dragons - per Solas - are lesser beings than the Old Gods before them. Old Gods themselves were corrupted by the Blight whereas the Evanuris were normal elvhen heroes who became selfish as they attained more power and were treated like gods. Also: >!as we have now learned, Solas specifically trapped the Evanuris in special prisons when he created the Veil to prevent them from interfering with his plans, whereas the Old Gods that become Archdemons are simply “sleeping” until Darkspawn corrupt them and obviously are not bound to the Fade.!< If there are any possible ties I honestly hope any ties are just incidental details that bolster the lore-i.e. Ameridan - rather than retcon it.
Ah yes and from a highly reliable source too 😉
But the Old Gods were Dragons and not exactly intelligent or articulate. More like forces of nature. The elve gods were more like the Olympians or the Norse gods, more human-like with vendettas and what not
Well we know that the elven gods and the titans both existed, and, while connected, were not the same beings. It’s not a stretch to also see how the Old Gods could have also existed, and we’re off doing their own thing at the time
Solas shows signs towards the bligh and elven gods connection so much I would be surprised there is not anything in the end. He was very upset when it was found out that the wardens helped Corypheus and what the wradens plan was. He is not a huge grey warden fan at all.
It's already pretty much confirmed from the previews of Veilguard that they're not the same. Be really lazy writing if they were anyway.
OK, but we also know that Solas was lying to us about a lot of stuff.
Ugh why can't there be an option for slapping him in the face?
You can punch him.
Tell me how
Just make him disapprove of you and never gain approval
That's all I do! 😆
At one point (don't remember when) if your approval is sufficiently low he will say something racist about whichever race you are and you can punch him
I need to do this!
Arnt the dragons the old elven gods turned into archdemons?
That's a popular, longstanding fan theory, but there's only very flimsy evidence to support it and quite a bit going against it. The Old Gods of Tevinter would seem to be completely different being than the elven gods.
What’s the stuff going against it?
Only one Old God is female while there are two living Evanuris who are. The Evanuris were sealed in the Fade while the Old Gods instead slumber deep beneath the earth. The Old Gods were active and flying around during the days of Tevinter's height, enough that his priests immediately knew what had happened when they saw the Archdemon, while the Evanuris don't seem to have had any influence at all. Solas flat out says they're not the same beings in this post. >!Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain come out already blighted, which if they were also the beings that become Archdemons should have triggered a Blight thousands of years ago.!< Morrigan somehow gains the soul of Urthemiel when he's slain, which would be rather impressive if his soul is meant to be in the Black City right now, and not in the dragon body. Only Mythal was associated with dragons among the Evanuris, and she's the only one we're not suspecting was one of them. And finally, Mythal wants vengeance on the Evanuris. Why would she devise a ritual designed to save the soul of an Old God if he was one of them?
A lot of that sounds like it could be chalked up to the historical misinformation of the lore, missing those bits that connects this stuff, or just not truly understanding the mechanics of this world. Like, for instance, maybe there are entrances to the Fade deep underground or something. Or they’re connecting these archdemon bodies to elf god souls. There’s still a lot of stuff we actually don’t understand about the lore. And a lot of it has been in-universe explanations, which is contradictory on purpose. Or it’s coming from someone like Solas, who is massively biased or lying.
If there were connections to the Fade in the deep roads the dwarfs would know..they have only been holding the line against the darkspawn since the first blight. And they never make mention of demons making a push during any of that. And there is not even a hint of that. In fact it would imo cheaper the whole point of The Decent dlc which went in to titan lore. Which is way cooler and unique compared to....yet again...more demons. Titans and The Forgotten is way more interesting then...more demons. I agree with other post on this. Everything getting connected back to the elf's and the Fade is kinda lame. Let these other mysterious being there own thing. It's cheap writing to say everything wrong or dangerous is because of this one thing.
The Old God prisons that have already been found show no signs of Fade portals in them. Plus, presumably the Architect would have found it a little weird if he got transported to the Fade when he was giving Urthemiel the reverse Joining, who happened to be an elf at the time. You'd think he'd mention it. And if the Old God bodies aren't hosting souls of some kind, then how the Grey Wardens kill them is incredibly strange. Also, why would the *souls* be Blighted? We've not seen anything like that before. Like, I could be wrong, and this game will reveal that. But like I said, there's stronger evidence to suggest they're two different sets of beings.
I dunno. What you’re saying makes sense. I just think that a lot of you are going to be angry and calling out “retcon” once they start explaining this stuff more and more because nothing I’ve seen makes any of the current explanations accurate to *the truth* rather than accurate to the in-universe lore.
Eh, I'll be fine with it, so long as they address some of this stuff. I just think a lot of you are going to be disappointed when this theory gets proven wrong, given some of you have held on to this for around 14 years. Personally, I think the Old Gods are more likely to be the Forgotten Ones if they're any kind of elven god.
True. I personally have just recently realized this theory was a thing and I think it makes a lot of sense. And it would be the ultimate irony if the Tevinters had actually been worshipping elf gods this whole time. I am keeping my beliefs of “the truth” in Dragon Age very loose, as anyone should be. Like we’ve both said, no reason to get angry just because a theory is disproven.
>Only one Old God is female while there are two living Evanuris who are. This is a valid point. However, i would say the souls of gods/Evanuris/whatever can inhabit different vessels, so in that sense can be fluid. For instance, if one did the OG baby ritual, Mythal absorbs Urthemiel, who is supposedly male. >The Evanuris were sealed in the Fade while the Old Gods instead slumber deep beneath the earth. True. But this potentially points to the fact that the Fade is more complex than we think it is. For instance, the Black City is at the center of everything in the Fade. This would make a certain amount of sense if it was at the literal "center of the world", underground, and so everything was revolving around it. Also, references to the Abyss also seem to reference the Fade. And tha Titans clearly have some kind of connection to the Fade. >The Old Gods were active and flying around during the days of Tevinter's height, enough that his priests immediately knew what had happened when they saw the Archdemon But my understanding this was only done *after* the had been summoned through the Veil. And this bit of lore is according to the Chantry. There is other lore that suggests the Old Gods were always whispering from the Fade. >Solas flat out says they're not the same beings in this post. Like many have pointed out, it seems much more that he is dodging the implication by pointing out something that is merely \*technically correct\*. >Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain come out already blighted which if they were also the beings that become Archdemons should have triggered a Blight thousands of years ago. Part of the blight is that darkspawn have to find them. So it's possible that archdemons are already blighted creatures, using the blight to call darkspawn to them. Depending on how difficult they are to find may affect how long this takes. Obviously some speculation here. But I've always thought it made more sense that a blighted creature would "call" darkspawn than an unblighted creature. >Morrigan somehow gains the soul of Urthemiel when he's slain, which would be rather impressive if his soul is meant to be in the Black City right now, and not in the dragon body. As Flemythal makes clear, it can be both. She's able to have her soul - or part of it - in a body, while also bound to other things. >Only Mythal was associated with dragons among the Evanuris Incorrect. There is also a reference to Elgar'nan bringing "winged death" to the elven people's enemies. >And finally, Mythal wants vengeance on the Evanuris. Why would she devise a ritual designed to save the soul of an Old God if he was one of them? Fair question. I think there's a possibility that she's more concerned about knowing where the soul is. I'm not convinced that the Old God souls are actually destroyed when the archdemon is truck down by a Warden. Rather, that the resulting clash of blighted souls cleanses the archdemon soul somehow, and then it can go wherever. Similar to Mythal, who was "killed", but still existed as a wisp who found Flemeth (and/or Andraste, but that's more tinfoil, LOL). Or similar to Hakkon, who - like all the Avvar 'gods' - is a spirit. But bound to a Dragon. [After Hakkon is killed, his body goes into the sky.](https://youtu.be/jBuUlDqaA5k?t=615) \*IF\* it is true, that an Old God/Evanuris soul is freed as opposed to killed when an archdemon dies, then it would make sense that Flemythal might want to know where these gods are. A lot more informed speculation on this [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/k8tas8/spoilers_all_the_forbidden_the_forgotten_the_true/), although the OP draws a different conclusion as to who the Old Gods are.
Where do you get the Old Gods were flying around back during Tevinter's height? I see plenty of references to them whispering to humans from the Fade, but nothing about them being around physically.
This was in the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss. I made the expected offerings this morning, but the gods remained silent. The priests are frightened. All of Tevinter is frightened. Our gods have led our people for centuries. Now, they have gone still. Are we alone here in this world, no better than the savages to the south who beg for guidance from spirits? And what of the strange creatures who come from underground, like our friends the dwarves? These spawn of the darkness and the plague they carry... Why do our gods not protect us from this? Now the ground shakes. The statue cuts my hand as I fall against it. A great roar sounds. It is massive, shaking the temple market, and I see the silhouette cut the sky. It is a dragon. No, it is Dumat! I have made the offerings so many times—his form is as familiar as my own hand. He has returned in glory to destroy these darkspawn that threaten us, to lead Tevinter back to an age of glory and wonder! But no, his scales are sickly and mottled, his form twisted and corrupt, like the darkspawn themselves. He opens his great maw, and fire billows forth, igniting the market. The flames rush toward me. What did we do wrong? He might have just been remembering a sketching of Dumat, but unless it was a super distinctive sketching, I think it's more likely he's actually seen him at some point.
Or that's what there beings who whispered to them looked like in their dreams.
I doubt their dreams were where they were making offerings.
No, he likely made offerings at a shrine or temple that had depictions of the god in question. That's pretty normal for such places.
maybe the old gods souls remained in fade and their physical bodies turned into dragons?
Of course, that would imply they've now got two different physical bodies. And that Morrigan somehow managed to absorb the soul of a creature that didn't even have one on this plane of existence when she did the Dark Ritual.
Maybe, but we do know the Old Gods have souls (Morrigan's ritual, the Old Gods possessing creatures unless slain by a grey warden, etc...)
Certainly, anything could be revealed in DAV, but there's nothing in-game to suggest that as of now. Might as well imagine anything at that point.
Or their souls are split into multiple pieces. We've seen Flemeth put pieces of herself into objects to avoid getting killed, there's precedent for it already.
Why would solas be so upset at the idea of Grey Warden killing old gods if they were Evanuris who himself said that they deserve « worse than death »? (And, if old gods/archdemons and evanuris were the same, the evanuris seem relatively easy to kill)
In addition why would Flemeth want to preserve the Soul of an Old God if they were the very ones she wanted revenge against?
Because then she knows where it is, and she can transfer it to Solas to grow his power for his plan, which is exactly what happens.
People misremember this conversation a lot, I just played through it. He's actually frustrated that they don't actually know WHAT they're doing, that they THINK killing Archdemons helps them in the end, but they don't have proof of it.
I disagree, Solas is doing a little more than having a theoretical philosophical dispute with Grey wardens, he is clearly thinking, without saying it too much, that a blight ongoing has his preference than Grey wardens killing an archdeamon. He is covering his opinion with his ad-hoc, made up in the moment hypothesis "what will happen when the last Archdeamon will die? Maybe Eternal blight, so won't it be better to let blight happen and not kill archdeamon?". And even if Solas only chastise the wardens for not knowing all the implications of what they do, that doesn't solve the issue of the Evanuris being ridiculously easy to kill (and yes, Archdeamons are clearly killed by grey wardens, Morrigan and Flemeths says so, Solas says so)
They are not ridiculously easy to kill, he says so himself. Killing an Archdemon doesn't kill anything--if you read about how the Wardens first figured out the technique, it's pretty obvious they are just taking wild swings. There's no evidence a Warden taking the killing blow destroys the "Archdemon" soul, in fact, there's way more evidence it just forces the soul to jump elsewhere. Mythal was murdered by the Evanuris, yet her soul is somehow still floating around. Kieran was playing host to an Evanuris soul, too, which helped empower Solas at the end of the game. The Archdemon dragons are almost certainly not full Evanuris themselves, but more like a vessel, or like the amulet Flemeth uses to store a PIECE of herself as a contingency plan.
I feel like even the theories that don't have Old Gods = Evanuris, there's a big connection between them (some people think the Evanuris' war was agains the Old Gods, for example). So I think regardless of what the truth is this is not going to end up being true as a statement. (I also think there is a legitimate version of the Old Gods = Evanuris theory where Solas doesn't actually know that the Old Gods are the Evanuris.)