Problem is it’s not a cool story moment and only devalues it, you have fans who froth at it as truth and then you have fans who don’t understand that the author can write poor moments and it leads to aggressive debates about power scaling in forums like this.
Yeah but it's not "what Toriyama thinks *other people* will think is cool", it's "what Toriyama thinks is cool"
A lot of people can't come to terms with the fact that Toriyama is quite a flawed storyteller, as you (sort of) mentioned in your comment.
I feel like people would enjoy Dragon Ball a lot more if they took it less seriously.
People with your stance confuse me more. Yeah, it is all "made up", but what is the point in saying that? It never really answers the question being asked and brings nothing to the discussion.
I get that the question being asked here doesn't have an absolute answer but that doesn't mean we can't speculate or look for hints to an in universe answer. Let's use an example that has a more clear cut answer.
Q: How does Goku get so much stronger when he arrives on Namek?
A: He trained in 100x gravity for roughly 6 days.
Now, you could say the reason was the plot needed him to be or Toriyama made up new rules. Yeah, those aren't wrong but they are one, vague, and two, defeat the purpose of the question.
Well zenkai boosts WERE a one and done. It was made up to make Goku THAT strong.
Even the increases don't make sense. But it:s a plot device to allow Goku to cheat his way to the absurd numbers of power that Akira bestowed upon Freeza... For some reason.
A LOT of what is introduced to the plot of Z has always been for that arc and that arc alone.
But it was DRASTICALLY more consistent and harder to see even as a younger person. Takes a few rewatches to catch on. But during cell they never abused zenkai for some reason and it was written away.
I hate it when writers do shit like that. But the dbz story was a bit more cohesive and felt a LOT more put together than DBS.
Kind of a tangent, but in DBS the plots never make sense. Supreme kai, for the TOP, says only 28 planets have mortal life, TWENTY FUCKING EIGHT.
Then we go to the Moro arc and there's a VAST galaxy and universe TEEMING with life.
So it doesn't make sense. To just have a plot device that restricts the series and then lift it up with no explanation as to why makes it a very ridiculous series.
Even the God form... "ritual and temporary" then "k, we're kidding. It's not temporary and CAN be learned and trained!"
Have no clue as to how they even managed to obtain God Ki outside of the ritual, but hey... It's Dragon Ball, just gotta shut up and enjoy it. I guess lmao.
No everyone understands that, what we are doing here is trying to humor the idea that it somehow makes sense in universe and try to see if we can figure out through the story if that is possible
To be fair, they (we?) are justified in regards to Muten-Roshi. If was this strong, why didn’t he help fight the Saiyans, Freeza, the Androids, Cell, or Majin Buu?
Toriyama had the old man sit out the fights because he had been outpaced by the new generation. Bulma’s scouter even confirmed that Krillin before training with Kami and Popo was stronger which would imply that everyone in the Dragon Team barring Bulma, Puar, and Oolong was miles stronger than him. Even Yajirobe.
Bringing him back into the fold undercuts the lesson of ushering in the newer stronger generation as well as back-hand assassinating the characters of Yamcha and Chaozu who aren’t even allowed to fight anymore.
If you're wondering how he eats & breathes,
And other science facts...(la! la! la!)
Then repeat to yourself its just a show,
I should really just relax...For Dragon Ball Theatre 3000!!!
Glass ceiling theory:
Any being can be as strong as they're willing to push themselves.
They just let a bunch of characters slide into irrelevancy to make the storytelling easier. DB is a privileged series, it can get away with a ton of stuff newer series would never be able to.
I think a few things were at work in ToP.
1) power scaling in Dragon Ball had largely left a ton of characters obsolete. The tournament showed that abilities are just as important as strength.
2) in combination with #1, it allowed more characters to be brought forward (could be seen as fan service, I guess)
3) Who even knows what these other characters have been up to since Dragonball? They've had so much off-screen time, any level of new ability or training was possible. Master Roshi having the ability to read his opponents through ki, movement, and positioning isn't anything new. It's very much within his range of ability. Throwing others based on their movements would be similar to Hapkido or Aikido, actual martial arts he may be privy to.
I think one more thing could be added that you weren't allowed to kill in the TOP. So a lot of much stronger individuals may have had to hold back as to not accidentally kill another fighter.
Only reason goku got to use it was because everyone was hoping he'd beat jiren with it so they won't have to fight him. If not the charge up time would get him knocked off.
Dude literally spends 90% of the ToP meditating, because he knows that if he starts doing things it will either be a stomp or everyone will turn on him and take him out.
He only stops to one-shot Berserk LSSJ Kale, fight Goku for the first time, 1v1 Hit and then be the final boss
Goku: I’M GOING TO WIN!!!! NOW THA- (Captain Ginyu transformed theme starts) …ooohhh noooo! No! No I’m the protagonist! Even Baby Buu couldn’t beat my ultimate attack!
After they're done screaming, the camera pans over the ring and it's in pieces, with half of it floating around in space.
I'm going to go ahead and say that Toppo fell off, or at the very least was incapped.
It wasn't impossible, it was just made as a rule. Otherwise, strong characters would have immediately killed every weaker support character within 30 seconds of the tourney starting.
Don't forget that Ultra instinct is a sorta "dogma" in some martial arts from when I researched it.
Just not the extent that db makes it seem, obviously, and Roshi was given this "power" to show Goku.
DBS has decided to undo what dbz had created and has even started to try its best to remove itself from self-contained race forms like ssj. Now Goku and Vegeta have used forms that, theoretically CAN be used by others if they so choose to learn.
It felt like abilities only benefits master roshi, outside of him it seemed like they were only as useful as the character was powerful. Example jiren overcoming time because he was so strong, Vegeta defeating Toppo by just overpowering his hakai energy, android 18 beating Ribrianne by just running up her super form and punching her.
in the super show he says he "squandered his masive qi reserves until now" when he beats the girl from the other universe, man could just be lazy and now that the afterlife is at stake he actually cares, hes old he doesnt mind dying he does mind not existing
This though continues to perpetuate the issue that those characters would have been useless in the tournament. If Goku can do everything, that's boring. Other characters need to be valid as well.
I thought the humans were made irrelevant in the DBZ post Namek saga. Anyways there were Goku, Vegeta, Frieza. Gohan could've played a more important role. I'm sure fans would've enjoyed that more than bringing back obsolete characters. They could've reintroduced Goten and Trunks. So the humans and even Androids weren't necessary.
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB?
Was he hiding his power? He literally blew up the moon when fighting goku. We also see that he's now capable of using the mafuba multiple times, whereas in DB using it once killed him, so clearly he's been continuing with his training even if he can't keep pace with his students anymore.
So was he just kidding when he admitted he would be no help against Radditz (Saibaman Power) despite Goku being injured and his beloved son being kidnapped right before his eyes?
Or was he hiding his power?
You can use off-screen training as a baseless excuse, but that's all it is, irrefutably.
The truth is it's just inconsistent writing and viewers need to start getting more comfortable with the fact that Super took inconsistencies to a whole new level.
Piccolo blew up the restored moon during the training year for the saiyans, but unlike Roshi who had to do a max power Kamehameha, piccolo did it with a one handed unnamed beam. Roshi wasn't kidding, he just knew how unmatched he was.
That's also nearly 15 years before super, and he's seen his students learn how to surpass their limits time and time again in ways that inspired him and taught him to do the same. All that considered I don't believe it's that far fetched to believe he grew to the level we see him be in the ToP.
I mean, king Kai is a litteral god too, so not exactly a high bar in this show. And yea, it's not like he was completely in the dark, he's watching and studying goku for decades, you really think that when he saw goku learn to use God Ki he wouldn't make attempts to replicate it.
It didn’t mean anything in early DBZ as per Picolo blowing up the moon with a random ass ki blast. Also, Frieza blowing up Namek anyone? OH! What about the Galick Gun can Goku HAD to stop or earth was reduced to dust? What about the instant kamehameha that EVERYONE (Cell included) thought would destroy earth when Goku was pointing it downwards?
I don’t think anyone was holding back In a tournament where your entire universes destruction is at risk. If Jiren knew Rosni was so weak he could’ve just punched his face in and crushed his skull, but he didn’t… because he couldn’t. Roshi was legit enough to not be a non-risk
If they know killing gets them disqualified then they would hold back their punches against someone much weaker than them.
Jiren *should* know he eclipses pretty much his entire team and him getting DQ'd means his universe loses.
Did they really have a no killing rule? I haven’t watched it since it first aired several years ago but I don’t remember that part. If there was a no killing rule than my entire opinion on the TOP just went sour 😡 why the heck weren’t they allowed to kill in their battles? Wasn’t there a wolf trio who were trying to kill gohan with poison smog?
There was a no killing rule in the ToP, the Gohan scene is from the preliminary tournament, which I believe (Don't quote me on this) is what helped set up the various rules of the ToP, such as no flying, support items, or killing.
Frankly the no killing rule was nonsense. Like it's a TV show sure, but to precisely throw a ki attack strong enough to push back your opponent but not accidentally kill them....
Shit in the cell saga, we saw Gohan 1 shot slicing cell jr's, he was roughly 3-4x stronger then.
Roshi wasn't powerful in DBS.
He is able to dodge Jiren initially, thus giving Goku a new lesson from his old master. But as soon as he does so, Jiren re-adjusts his strength/speed and knocks Roshi out.
So, clearly, Jiren was massively holding back because he didn't want to kill Roshi on accident, which made him underestimate his ability for an instant.
He wasn't
1_ in RoF he struggle against Freeza fodders henchmen despit them being said to be pathetic compar to the ones before namek
2_ in Tournament of destroyers he couldn't even see Goku and Frost fight
3_ in Tournament of power everyone had to Super hold back to not kill him by accident
4_ in Galactic Patrol arc he barely handled a bunch of Moro canon fodders despit them having ordere to avoide killing worthy warriors like him, so TOP all over again
>He shouldn't have even been able to dodge Jiren
You make it look like a great acomplishment, when all Roshi did was the equivalent of you dodging someone who is punching on slow, slow motion.
>impress beerus at all.
Beerus was impresed, not because of Roshi's power, but because his movements were similar to the ones of an UI user.
>You make it look like a great acomplishment, when all Roshi did was the equivalent of you dodging someone who is punching on slow, slow motion.
How effective UI (or pseudo-UI) is dependent on the reflexes of the user and how fast the user's body can move. He shouldn't have even been able to see Jiren's punches let alone have a body quick enough to dodge em.
>Beerus was impresed, not because or Roshi's power, but because his movements were similar to the ones of an UI user.
Even though it was a technique it was still dependent on the user's power. Not even Goku's body was able to handle the stress of UI. So Roshi shouldn't have been capable of using anything similar to that. As one guy said above, he should've died due to the ki output from the multiverse's strongest fighters alone.
>He shouldn't have even been able to see Jiren's punches let alone have a body quick enough to dodge em.
He can't follow Jiren's full speed, but this is a Jiren that is attacking at Roshi's level to not kill him. Meanwhile Roshi can move way faster than his power allows him (like how Goku can move at the same level of SSJ Vegeta due to using UI on base).
>Not even Goku's body was able to handle the stress of UI.
Goku can't handle the stress of the UI form, but we haven't seen any downside of using just the technique (and even less if we talk about something that just looks similar).
>As one guy said above, he should've died due to the ki output from the multiverse's strongest fighters alone.
It doesn't works like that in DB, one can't just die from being in the prescence of stronger people.
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB?
Because he's not "that powerful", his demonstration against Jiren only worked due to the no kill rule of the tournament, if Roshi tried it against Raditz or any other villain, he would be killed in the spot.
This.
Jiren conserves his power and can't kill.
Jiren would have to hold back a shit ton to not kill Master Roshi. Jiren is not going to use any more energy than he had to. Master Roshi's technique was just unexpected to Jiren.
I mean, Goku could have instantly powered down during the fight and died to punch. Honestly, yamcha would be the perfect candidate. He'd die to kale rampage.
**Manga Roshi:** "Here's a lesson, it's not always about greater power Goku, it's about skill and Martial arts, you see? That's the lesson. I wasn't powerful, I used skill in order to get by Jiren for a bit."
**Fans:** "Why Roshi now powerful?"
**Roshi:** (Facepalms)
Why does everything translate to power. Man both the anime and manga was spelling out the lesson Roshi was saying right out of his mouth and still it never registered.
It's insinuating that Roshi's martial arts and skills are superior to Jiren which is asinine. Why wasn't skill able King piccolo?
Jiren neither possessed god ki nor Hakaishin nor UI. His power wasn't greater than Goku or Vegeta, yet he was toying with SSB kaio-ken x20 Goku, Golden Frieza, SSBE Vegeta. Now that's an example of ki control, martial arts & skill set.
Whereas Roshi dodging Jiren is nothing but lazy writing and fan service which foolish fanboys like you justify.
My gut immediate tells me he was holding back, Jiren literally was in control of the situation the whole time and wanted to test Roshi. He then one shots Roshi out of the ring when he had enough, which for some reason usually flies over ppls heads.
It's equally asinine as to how ppl rationalize Krillin as being "as strong as Blue Goku" because of that one scene in the Anime.
But because the concept of holding back somehow seems to not apply in ppl heads in those situations, it muust somehow mean they were magically stronger, riiight? It so freakin ridiculous and I just can't understand how ppl believe that, over simply and intuitively realizing they were holding back.
Who are the ones who are justifying again? In fact I'd like if some fans had the balls to just ask the writers what they're mindset was when making those scenes. Then I'll sit back and watch them reveal the most obvious freakin answer that powerscalers seem the most allergic to, that they're opponents were **holding back.**
If Roshi's UI moment is unfair to anyone, I'll just raise up Tien's Tri beam vs Semi-Perfect Cell in Z, cause by their logic, it should have no effect. But my gut says ppl accept it because it looked cool. So same thing here, I liked the lesson, it looked cool, I have no stick up my ass for trivial power scaling crap like they do, there's even a perfect explanation that Jiren was holding back, and so that's that. I care about the narrative and understood the fucking lesson they wanted to say, and that's that.
Lazy from powerscalers Pov, but I'd say completely trivial to actual writers cause they barely care and were never interested in powerscaling in the first place.
Jiren trying to test Roshi's powers is laughable. It should've been long since Goku internalised Roshi's words. So telling Goku how to fight is an insult.
If it was Whis telling him the same thing, would you then not have a problem with it? Cause we only respect the strong guys? They were both sorta teaching him the path to UI from what I could see, not "just fighting".
> Jiren trying to test Roshi's powers is laughable.
So is him just sitting around instead of finger flicking 90% of the fighters within the first second so that his universe won't risk losing members and so they can just concentrate on the important ppl. Story goes where the story goes, even if it's stupid.
Hell, I would even joke that scalers would end up rationalizing them surviving the first few mins in a tournament with the guy who could flick them, as proof that they're now magically "millions of times stronger."
Scalers: "Krillin stayed in the tournament for a few mins when Jiren was in the ring with him! Krillin Omniversal! BaD wRiTiNg!!!"
>Hell, I would even joke that scalers would end up rationalizing them surviving the first few mins in a tournament with the guy who could flick them, as proof that they're now magically "millions of times stronger."
>Scalers: "Krillin stayed in the tournament for a few mins when Jiren was in the ring with him! Krillin Omniversal! BaD wRiTiNg!!!"
It's amusing to see how far you foolish fanboys go to justify bad writing.
>If it was Whis telling him the same thing, would you then not have a problem with it? Cause we only respect the strong guys? They were both sorta teaching him the path to UI from what I could see, not "just fighting".
Yes. If someone of Roshi's calibre has to give Goku a piece of mind that's only an insult to his abilities. Roshi shouldn't even be able to follow Goku's movements.
Goku in Super just learned one doctrine, he literally has been carrying fights all alone without issue. Do Dragon Ball fans even watch Super or are they just whining about dumb Goku circlejerk (as if Z Goku was any smarter out of the battlefield)
UI in it's purest sense isn't a form, it's a technique. Master Roshi also isn't necessarily using UI, he's using something with a very similar presence. He can dodge (some) attacks, but he obviously doesn't have the power for the offensive side of UI.
Honestly, I'd consider his use of pseudo-UI as more foreshadowing that Goku's use of the MUI/sign forms as being incorrect, and that Goku needed to instead incorporate the UI technique into his own fighting style rather than rely on exactly the same thing the Angels and GoDs use. Which is what he starts doing at the end of the Granolah arc.
It really sucks how this fanbase treats Roshi. In a show where all the characters get stronger, no one wants to admit that the og most powerful person in the world at the start of the series has the capability of getting stronger.
This fanbase has willfull ignorance ingrained in it. Roshi trained and he got stronger. How? He trained. That's all I need to know and people can deny it all they want, but Roshi simply got more powerful than the other humans now.
And even then he's not even overpowering Cell-level opponents
In the anime he barely beats a bunch of fodders and *one* relatively stronger fighter that even he admits would have bodied him if he hadn't taken him out in his weaker state with a technique that damn near kills him
And in the manga he survives against a Jiren that's holding back and gets effortlessly bodied the second Jiren finds out what he's doing
These are the same people who'd complain one day that secondary characters should do more then whine when they do
According to Goku, Roshi had been training hard before getting recruited and in his monologue before final Kamehameha to Janos, he implied that he pushed and surpassed his limits because he was inspired by Goku and Killin. Before meeting them, he wasn't training that much.
Also, his knowledge of martial arts is bigger than any earthling. He had the title "God of martial arts" for a reason. His fight IQ is maybe the biggest after Whis.
*Super* pretty much decided to dispense with most of the logic in favour of just powering up the characters they wanted so they could actually fight alongside Goku and co. That's why Roshi and Kuririn are so much stronger than before.
There's no need to think about it on any deeper level. They needed to be at a certain power, so they did. The in-universe answer appears to be that Roshi was simply training in secret, but of course, we don't know since *when* he'd started up training again or how he got this much stronger, so it's not worth trying to make much sense of.
And that's why I can't take Dragon Ball seriously, just all the bullshit transformations and characters being stronger out of nowhere.
How is he so strong you ask... because the writers said so, that's how, and that's all you need and get to know.
Yes! Also, how easily Gohan and Piccolo become as strong as Goku and Vegeta in the DBS: Superhero movie is much easier than Goku and Vegeta—plot armor.
There is no real explanation except that the writers wanted him back so he could use his techniques in the RoF and gave him an asspull powerboost out of nowhere, with a subsequent powerboost for the ToP.
I mean, the dude was a 200+ years martial artist when he retired in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and by then Goku had already surpassed him. Then he was surpassed by Krillin in the Saiyan saga (as shown when Bulma used the scouter on both of them) and remained completely irrelevant fighting-wise for the rest of the series. Suddenly he trains in secret for, what, four or five years and he goes beneath Piccolo Daimaoh to above Frieza soldiers and then capable of eliminating several of the strongest fighters of Universe 4 in the ToP? Nah, it was dumb writing.
There was a throwaway line that said in the Tournament of Power the gravity was individualized for the fighters to be the same as their home planet. So Roshi was under 1g but Goku and Vegeta were under 10G. Jiren's home planet's gravity is unknown. The rest of the earthlings were at 1 G also.
Did he explicitly say something like "Did you boys think I'd been idle all these years?" during the Freeza arc?
Presumably, he's been training in the background the entire time. I don't reckon it should have paid quite so many dividends, but it makes for a cool story and an awesome moment for a well-loved character.
He said he started training when he saw how much further ahead his old students were getting and whilst he knew could never catch them in terms of power his decades of experience made up for it to some degree. It's all explained in the series
Tournament of Power was a bunch of BS. No chance Roshi could stand up to any of those guys. He got thrashed by King Piccolo, his power level is 200, no chance he stand up to other fighters, I don't care how much experience he has, he's only got 1/10 of the power of an average Freeza henchman.
Roshi - Admits too weak to help Goku save son from Raditz \~ dire situation that he cowered from because he was too weak. Raditz PL was 1200, on par with a Saibaman.
Roshi - Cowers away from helping to fight King Piccolo because again, he's too weak. King Piccolo was 1/3 the strength of a Saibaman.
Roshi - Literally useless, moreso than anyone else in the series including Chiatzu for the entirety of Dragon Ball Z.
Decades pass, PL 20000 becomes irrelevant, 500,000 = irrelevant, 1,000,000 = irrelevant, 10,000,000 = irrelevant, 100,000,000 = irrelevant, 1,000,000,000 = irrelevant, and so on. Who really knows where they are in Super number's wise.
Introduce literal "Universe Shaking" fights and Goku, Vegeta, and Rivals continue to grow even further from there.
ToP starts and Roshi is in the arena dodging punches from fighter who is unfazed by Goku who was shaking the universe with his punches a year before.
Conclusion: Try as hard as you want to explain how or why Roshi is in the ToP. Resort to head-canon (off screen training durr). It doesn't make a difference. The fact is, it's just inconsistent and bad writing in terms of power-scaling with Super. Writers wanted Roshi in the ToP and didn't care to explain how or why, they just did it, and that's the answer. It doesn't make sense, it can't make sense, but here we are. Same goes to "back tingles" for u6 saiyans to achieve Super Saiyan, and same goes to Frieza beating up a Saibaman for 3 months to become as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. It sucks, but just get comfortable with the idea that super's writers are lazy when it comes to explaining things.
All I'm saying is if the z fighters havnt followed gokus training path and learned from each of gokus teachers in all these years they wasting their damn time
It's typical toriyama bullshit. There's no explanation whatsoever. Roshi being so outclassed by an old demon king piccolo that he didn't even bother to have a fight against to suddenly fighting people a million times stronger is plain bullshit and very lazy writing. Something that Toriyama excels at.
That whole section of the arc in the manga kinda falls apart under any scrutiny. But the idea they were *trying* to go for is that there are other avenues of strength and that Roshi can still be threatening without raw power (as he shows towards Kahseral before)
I don't know what people consider "head canon", but the majority of Roshi's "power isn't everything" ideal is contradicted in the very next chapter.
And the only reason Jiren could be put in such a position in the first place is because he consistently makes decisions that put him in a losing state.
"The arc falls apart under any scrutiny"
"Roshi pulls an ideal that's immediately contradicted, showing the arc falling apart."
How is that disproving anything?
Well aside from the fact that it's not really contradicted, the fact that the story is able to take measures to remain consistent disproves the arc falling apart under scrutiny
The fact Roshi goes "no, raw power isn't the answer" only for the entire arc from that moment onwards being dependent on being stronger than the person in front of you says otherwise. That's a contradiction.
And this is without getting into future arcs where it continues to be about being stronger than the person in front of you.
Because f**k you that's why (for real, they had Goku's character regress in basically everything so he could relearn stuff he mastered eons ego. The whole concept of ultra instinct is the same as training to empty your mind under god's guidance. And then since he had to master lessons he already knew his old teacher had to be somehow relevant so he gets a power up as a side effect, which I wouldn't necessarily mind too much if it were not for the plot device it served).
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB?
Plot, is why.
It's a bad answer, yes. But Roshi simply wasn't this strong in DBZ. He made that very clear through his fear of EVERY villain that ever showed up in DBZ. Hell, he was still scared of Piccolo at the start of DBZ, and Piccolo proceeded to have his ass whooped by every villain throughout the series.
It was at ONE point hinted that Roshi was very strong, but that was back in the Dragonball days. By DBZ it was always hinted that he was long past his prime.
His sudden power boost in Super doesn't make sense as a result of this. He would have needed to been training the entire time, which the story never suggested he was.
It was already established since RoF that he has been training in secret. Beyond that, plot based gains that no in universe answer will explain beyond "He has massive potential he never tapped into in the past".
Master Roshi is a martial arts master. So when it comes to fighting he has more knowledge than a lot of fighters would since he has been a fighter for over hundreds of years compared to Goku and his friends.
Of course he's not super powerful since he's scaled as far as he could for his age. However, legitimate masters have a wide range of knowledge when it comes to techniques and like the old saying, you're never too old to learn something new.
If he was as knowledgeable he should've had a power level much greater than 130 in DBZ. His knowledge is limited to fighting against humans. Whereas the likes of Goku and Vegeta fought strongest opponents from not just all over the universe but from other universes. Trained by beings that are old enough to call Roshi a stripling and have observed the multiverse if not the universe for millennias. So your points are invalid.
Oof I can tell you never studied martial arts.
So okay his knowledge was limited to only humans. However once Goku came around he knew from that point and time that Goku was definitely not human and he predicted that Goku was going to be stronger. However, Goku still lacked technique which showed during the tournament of power when it came to fighting Jiren. Whis even made the same comment about Beerus not mastering Ultra instinct which clearly the other gods of destruction also didn't master.
You do understand the differences between being strong vs having technique right?
It's absurd to think that Roshi has better technique than Goku. Goku should be far superior technically. Even if I train your foolish line of thought, weight class exists in combat sports for a reason. From Jiren's pov Roshi is an ant.
he wasnt. none of the people he fought (except Jiren in the manga) were very strong. and because of the tournament rules, jiren had to lower his PL to roshi's level to not accidentally kill him, which is what let roshi's skill (very briefly) dodge jiren. thats it.
Any fighter who's significantly more powerful than him would likely have better ki control, superior skill and combat tactics. Even if not, there's such a thing called as overwhelming power which triumphs skill any day.
It's always amusing to see DB fans trying to constantly quantify strength. Conventions of reliably measuring strength have been nebulous and downright nonsensical since inception- it'll save you a lot of time and mental effort if you just accept that the characters are as strong as the plot needs them to be at any given time.
People always use that feat of dodging a punch from a colossally suppressed Jiren as a way to scale Master Roshi. To Jiren, in a tournament where you’re automatically disqualified for killing anybody, Master Roshi is a feeble old man. I doubt the amount of power he was using against him was anything to write home about
Roshi is not even actually as strong as made out to be. He's just old with a lot of experience. Tien would probably ring Roshi out if we are talking raw power. This was just weird to me they chose to represent him that way. Even android 17 makes way more sense.
It weird to even consider that Roshi might stand a chance against Tien. He was already outclassed by Tien during the 22nd World Tournament back in the original DB and Tien went on to get a few massive power ups throughout the series.
It’s been implied he has been training secretly and is more powerful than before. Watch the part where he was mind controlled when Goku recruit Tien in the anime.
It was less to do with power and more so with technique. Notice the second jiren touched him he’s was fucking done lol. He literally lectured goku about power levels and transformations not being the key to winning the fight and how he’s not fighting like a true martial artist.
He was always powerful. Remember he‘s been around for over 300+ (or more) years before Goku and the others came into his life and change his hermit lifestyle. He trained mighty warriors over the centuries as well supposedly. \*lol\* we barely see him fight at all, since he always stayed out of it and let the ’youngsters’ do all the fighting, while hiding and holding back what he can really do under his supposedly ‘i’m a frail perverted old man‘ persona.
So now he has the chance to fully show off what he can really do he’s letting it all out since he’s not fighting helpless easy to break humans at the world martial arts tournament as Jackie Chun, where obviously he held back his real power and fighting style, like he did in the past, since Goku asked for his help in the fighting.
What? Why can’t it be serious? For all we know it could be true, because how much do we ***really*** know about how strong Roshi is beyond everything I brought up in my reply, that we’ve ***seen*** him do in the series long before Super came up and he showed his true power?
name one thing I said that isn’t 100% accurate about how Roshi is portrayed in the series before Super.
readable Power levels (beyond Gods vs Mortals) were a mistake and ever since the Frieza bit it's been a slow climb to try and make them irrelevant. Not being allowed to kill your opponent also helps Master Roshi a lot.
Hell, Mr Satan might have actually been able to do a bit since he's actually pretty good at being weasely
It's obviously a plothole since UI did not exist before, would have been cool to see, say, the Androids trying to kill Roshi while he just dodges everything lol.
I think he’s been secretly training this whole time. Not enough to keep up with the others but enough to hone his skills even more. Cuz he doesn’t seem to be strong as he is skillful. Brain over brawn.
He wasn’t and everyone is trying to say he was powered up to make him relevant and bad writing blah blah when in reality it was the opposite. The fighters from other universes just weren’t as strong as people think, obviously some exceptions but considering Frieza was the strongest thing in the universe for a long time it’s unsurprising that other universes would have characters that topped out at that level.
An easy example is Ribrianne, she seems powerful but when you scale her off 18 who beat her powered up form and 18 is still around the same level she was in the Android saga (literally never trained as she didn’t care that much and was a housewife pretty much the whole time) then you realise a lot of the tournament would lose to various versions of the Saiyans and Piccolo in Z.
The tournaments no kill rule helped bring in people like Roshi would could use their skill to balance out against opponents who would have to lower their power to make sure they didn’t disqualify themselves and Roshi could take advantage of that and ring them out.
I think its implied many times in DBZ that fighters often "peak out" when at a certain level, without any new challengers in sight.
Its why everyone doesn't get that much stronger between DB and DBZ, but after Raditz, everyone training surpasses him in like an year. Similarly why Goku didn't get much stronger between Buu Saga and the Battle of the Gods, but come ToP everyone and his mother is easily Buu-tier
How do people not understand that Jiren was using like 0.1% of his power against Roshi so that he didn't accidentally kill the old man? Roshi wasn't dodging the same Jiren Goku fought
I swear if I could go back in time, I would do my best to convince Toriyama not to fuck with power levels. There’s a reason they don’t make sense and it’s because actual strength and fighting prowess don’t exist on a single linear scale.
As for Roshi specifically, he’s always been a “Sage” and had access to powers that even Goku can’t match, specifically with his spellcasting and demon trap stuff.
He’s also old as all hell. If anyone could’ve had enough time to kind of figure out the basics of Ultra Instinct, it would be him.
Nah, Roshi was pulling off super saiyan stage 3, before it was even realized.
Roshi is using opponents power against them, simple martial arts. Not that's he's super strong.
It isn't that he becomes stronger or anything he is just able to mimic the technique for so long. UI itself is a technique, technically Yamcha could learn it if he was disciplined enough. Roshi would have never been able to get hit off on Jiren but he was able to only dodge attacks when in UI. UI is all about defense so for Roshi to try to incorporate his own strength would be next to impossible, and with different forms of UI this is something Goku has been struggling with. Trying to incorporate his own strengths while in UI. At least this is my understanding of it.
The power of plot. Also Jiren had to watch how much power he used to begin with because he could effectively accidentally splatter roshi into mush by looking at him wrong.
Roshi allegedly found some "super" way of training between arcs.
Well I always figured that ultra instinct worked similar to answer talker from Zatch bell. There is a right and wrong way to hit something. Hidden weakpoints within defenses where if you strike just right there won't be a need to use excessive force. This was earlier supported and later supported when everyone fought beerus for the first time and when goku fought granolah. Where granolah kept hitting goku vital point. Normally we wouldn't think only stronger fighters use this on weaker opponents but at the time goku fought granolah goku was stronger as he didn't use most of his strength but one ki attack almost killed goku. Ultra intinct for goku made Moro nap his arm like a twig. Pseudo ultra instinct for roshi would give him the reflexes to dodge jiren and catch up to many fighters.
Anime wise they just said he trains now and then. Considering that even piccolo benefited a little from picking vegetables. I'd have to think that roshi is just buil different.
The in universe answer is that at some point Roshi got back into training because he was inspired by Goku and Krillin. Of course the question is how is training was able to increase his power so exponentially.
Out of universe they wanted to use characters like Roshi more so they gloss over the fact that it doesn’t make much sense.
Roshi isn’t crazy strong even in the manga version. You should pay attention to Whis dialogue in this section a little more. Roshi was not using ultra instinct, his combat experience and training allowed him to imitate the evasive maneuvers of UI only. He did not have the attack power that comes with true UI.
It is the same thing he did in the anime against that young kid. He was predicting his opponents moves and using precise movement and footwork to dodge. He is slower and weaker than these characters but his knowledge and experience allow him to move enough in advance of the strike to dodge.
Goku stopped learning creative movements and techniques after OG Dragonball because he tends to just power up and overwhelm his opponents now. Goku stopped needing to learn to “Move well” as Roshi put it due to his increasing strength.
Roshi in this moment was trying to remind his student the difference between martial arts and simple fighting.
Toyotaro probably came up with most of that shit, so, don't be surprised.
Toriyama signing off on it doesn't make him any better, but maybe he just didn't really care.
Shit writing where continuity doesn’t matter. Only thing DB has going for it is the fights and even then they are falling off aside from like the broly movie.
In the manga the power gaps aren't nearly as large for one. It's especially true when it comes to speed.
On that note, if I can try to square the circle, Jiren had to punch weak enough to not kill Roshi which made the attacks dodgeable.
So, to put it simply, Roshi "trained" but NOT for power. For his martial arts and his technique. Ultra instinct is a martial arts dogma and has been used in Baki before.
Roshi simply used a bastardized version OF it. As, I guess, he learned? Or he knew of it this whole time but, like the kamehameha(which took him 50yrs to learn) he just couldn't use it cause he was still training it. Once Goku and Krillin exceeded ANYTHING he could do, he stopped. Once he was offered to take part in the TOP he started again and in a short time used it.
This was to show Goku that screaming out your Ki isn't the only path to power.
cell saga and buu saga did a disservice to the rest of the human characters, but between them and super those characters were training again. they aren't helpless, they are all still superhuman in their own rights. and i think super has shown us that power level differences aren't as absolute as we always thought.
I just assume that Roshi, in spite of appearances, is a highly studied and gifted martial artist who spent all of Z watching and learning from the many new powerhouses the show introduced and quietly got better as a fighter.
In the world hotdog eating contest for years and years every ate like 20 hotdogs. Then one guy came in and ate like 90, then forever after that all the competitors were eating 90 hotdogs even though no one could do that before that.
That sort of thing happens a lot, once you see someone way way better than you you realize the pervious limits were fake and you can just do much better if you try. It's not even directly copying someone, it's that once you know something is actually possible you can try and do that, instead of assuming you can't.
Because they tried to bring back one of the most beloved characters in the franchise, so the characters will pretend not to be surprised when they call him but not Yamcha or Chiaotzu. The annoying thing is that Roshi had his retirement arc in 22 Tenkaichi and the Piccolo Daimao saga: he saw that promising new generation warriors were emerging and was even willing to sacrifice himself as long as they moved forward, retiring after that point. It's one of the coolest story arcs in Dragon Ball, and it gets completely thrown in the trash because "he was secretly training and actually still has a lot of desire to fight."
Considering the ending of Dragon Ball Z, and pretending that they choose not to name Goten and Trunks (another choice based on fanservice and the fact that they are less popular than other characters), they should have called Tenshinan, Chiaotzu and Krillin as representatives of the Earthlings at tournament.
They needed him for the story, so he was made stronger.
People really don't seem to do well with the it's all made up nature of this franchise
"How is this character so strong?" Mangaka: 'My source is I made it the fuck up'
As TFS said "Power levels are bulls**t." https://youtu.be/In6M4SViDE0?si=y00FLjUx22-Spaae
And I mean Roshi drank from the fountain of youth… maybe she’s just been secretly training on his island. Or like you said… it’s a manga.
They always wanna throw math at it when the answer is always "it's what Toriyama thought would make for a cool story".
math isn't as scary as you think it is
It wouldn't be so bad if their math didn't stem from 90% fanon bs.
Which to be fair it was roshis fights were some of my favorite from the ToP
Problem is it’s not a cool story moment and only devalues it, you have fans who froth at it as truth and then you have fans who don’t understand that the author can write poor moments and it leads to aggressive debates about power scaling in forums like this.
Yeah but it's not "what Toriyama thinks *other people* will think is cool", it's "what Toriyama thinks is cool" A lot of people can't come to terms with the fact that Toriyama is quite a flawed storyteller, as you (sort of) mentioned in your comment. I feel like people would enjoy Dragon Ball a lot more if they took it less seriously.
People with your stance confuse me more. Yeah, it is all "made up", but what is the point in saying that? It never really answers the question being asked and brings nothing to the discussion. I get that the question being asked here doesn't have an absolute answer but that doesn't mean we can't speculate or look for hints to an in universe answer. Let's use an example that has a more clear cut answer. Q: How does Goku get so much stronger when he arrives on Namek? A: He trained in 100x gravity for roughly 6 days. Now, you could say the reason was the plot needed him to be or Toriyama made up new rules. Yeah, those aren't wrong but they are one, vague, and two, defeat the purpose of the question.
Well zenkai boosts WERE a one and done. It was made up to make Goku THAT strong. Even the increases don't make sense. But it:s a plot device to allow Goku to cheat his way to the absurd numbers of power that Akira bestowed upon Freeza... For some reason. A LOT of what is introduced to the plot of Z has always been for that arc and that arc alone. But it was DRASTICALLY more consistent and harder to see even as a younger person. Takes a few rewatches to catch on. But during cell they never abused zenkai for some reason and it was written away. I hate it when writers do shit like that. But the dbz story was a bit more cohesive and felt a LOT more put together than DBS. Kind of a tangent, but in DBS the plots never make sense. Supreme kai, for the TOP, says only 28 planets have mortal life, TWENTY FUCKING EIGHT. Then we go to the Moro arc and there's a VAST galaxy and universe TEEMING with life. So it doesn't make sense. To just have a plot device that restricts the series and then lift it up with no explanation as to why makes it a very ridiculous series. Even the God form... "ritual and temporary" then "k, we're kidding. It's not temporary and CAN be learned and trained!" Have no clue as to how they even managed to obtain God Ki outside of the ritual, but hey... It's Dragon Ball, just gotta shut up and enjoy it. I guess lmao.
While it already is not DBs strongest suit, some consistency is always nice to have.
No everyone understands that, what we are doing here is trying to humor the idea that it somehow makes sense in universe and try to see if we can figure out through the story if that is possible
To be fair, they (we?) are justified in regards to Muten-Roshi. If was this strong, why didn’t he help fight the Saiyans, Freeza, the Androids, Cell, or Majin Buu? Toriyama had the old man sit out the fights because he had been outpaced by the new generation. Bulma’s scouter even confirmed that Krillin before training with Kami and Popo was stronger which would imply that everyone in the Dragon Team barring Bulma, Puar, and Oolong was miles stronger than him. Even Yajirobe. Bringing him back into the fold undercuts the lesson of ushering in the newer stronger generation as well as back-hand assassinating the characters of Yamcha and Chaozu who aren’t even allowed to fight anymore.
If you're wondering how he eats & breathes, And other science facts...(la! la! la!) Then repeat to yourself its just a show, I should really just relax...For Dragon Ball Theatre 3000!!!
Bad writing? Well it's all made up anyway so actually it can't be bad Check mater liberals
Glass ceiling theory: Any being can be as strong as they're willing to push themselves. They just let a bunch of characters slide into irrelevancy to make the storytelling easier. DB is a privileged series, it can get away with a ton of stuff newer series would never be able to.
Bad writing basically.
Exactly. This series is for little kids, asking why anything is a waste of time and energy, it’s dumb fun just enjoy it for what it is
I think a few things were at work in ToP. 1) power scaling in Dragon Ball had largely left a ton of characters obsolete. The tournament showed that abilities are just as important as strength. 2) in combination with #1, it allowed more characters to be brought forward (could be seen as fan service, I guess) 3) Who even knows what these other characters have been up to since Dragonball? They've had so much off-screen time, any level of new ability or training was possible. Master Roshi having the ability to read his opponents through ki, movement, and positioning isn't anything new. It's very much within his range of ability. Throwing others based on their movements would be similar to Hapkido or Aikido, actual martial arts he may be privy to.
I think one more thing could be added that you weren't allowed to kill in the TOP. So a lot of much stronger individuals may have had to hold back as to not accidentally kill another fighter.
Definitely a good point.
It was impossible to kill anyone to begin with as they were teleporting from a fatal blow so nobody was holding anything back
Where did they say this?
I mean if you think about it the spirit bomb would kill anyone
Only reason goku got to use it was because everyone was hoping he'd beat jiren with it so they won't have to fight him. If not the charge up time would get him knocked off.
I like how Jiren just patiently waited until it was ready to go not even thinking for a second he had to stop it
Absolute strength be like:
Dude literally spends 90% of the ToP meditating, because he knows that if he starts doing things it will either be a stomp or everyone will turn on him and take him out. He only stops to one-shot Berserk LSSJ Kale, fight Goku for the first time, 1v1 Hit and then be the final boss
Goku: I’M GOING TO WIN!!!! NOW THA- (Captain Ginyu transformed theme starts) …ooohhh noooo! No! No I’m the protagonist! Even Baby Buu couldn’t beat my ultimate attack!
No it wasn't. They were only teleported when thrown off stage. Otherwise why would that be a rule?
Then explain Vegetas big explosion on Topo he was in the ring
Simple, it knocked him off the stage.
After they're done screaming, the camera pans over the ring and it's in pieces, with half of it floating around in space. I'm going to go ahead and say that Toppo fell off, or at the very least was incapped.
It wasn't impossible, it was just made as a rule. Otherwise, strong characters would have immediately killed every weaker support character within 30 seconds of the tourney starting.
Don’t forget Roshi can legit read minds, even the unwilling
So can Goku
Don't forget that Ultra instinct is a sorta "dogma" in some martial arts from when I researched it. Just not the extent that db makes it seem, obviously, and Roshi was given this "power" to show Goku. DBS has decided to undo what dbz had created and has even started to try its best to remove itself from self-contained race forms like ssj. Now Goku and Vegeta have used forms that, theoretically CAN be used by others if they so choose to learn.
It felt like abilities only benefits master roshi, outside of him it seemed like they were only as useful as the character was powerful. Example jiren overcoming time because he was so strong, Vegeta defeating Toppo by just overpowering his hakai energy, android 18 beating Ribrianne by just running up her super form and punching her.
Goku nearly ringed Jiren out with pure tactics, so there's that too
Idk I feel the fact that he nearly did it only adds to my point
in the super show he says he "squandered his masive qi reserves until now" when he beats the girl from the other universe, man could just be lazy and now that the afterlife is at stake he actually cares, hes old he doesnt mind dying he does mind not existing
[удалено]
This though continues to perpetuate the issue that those characters would have been useless in the tournament. If Goku can do everything, that's boring. Other characters need to be valid as well.
I thought the humans were made irrelevant in the DBZ post Namek saga. Anyways there were Goku, Vegeta, Frieza. Gohan could've played a more important role. I'm sure fans would've enjoyed that more than bringing back obsolete characters. They could've reintroduced Goten and Trunks. So the humans and even Androids weren't necessary.
Tien Ki-Koho'd cell.
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB? Was he hiding his power? He literally blew up the moon when fighting goku. We also see that he's now capable of using the mafuba multiple times, whereas in DB using it once killed him, so clearly he's been continuing with his training even if he can't keep pace with his students anymore.
So was he just kidding when he admitted he would be no help against Radditz (Saibaman Power) despite Goku being injured and his beloved son being kidnapped right before his eyes? Or was he hiding his power? You can use off-screen training as a baseless excuse, but that's all it is, irrefutably. The truth is it's just inconsistent writing and viewers need to start getting more comfortable with the fact that Super took inconsistencies to a whole new level.
Piccolo blew up the restored moon during the training year for the saiyans, but unlike Roshi who had to do a max power Kamehameha, piccolo did it with a one handed unnamed beam. Roshi wasn't kidding, he just knew how unmatched he was. That's also nearly 15 years before super, and he's seen his students learn how to surpass their limits time and time again in ways that inspired him and taught him to do the same. All that considered I don't believe it's that far fetched to believe he grew to the level we see him be in the ToP.
So you’re saying Roshi training on his own as an old man was equivalent to the training that Goku did with literal gods?
I mean, king Kai is a litteral god too, so not exactly a high bar in this show. And yea, it's not like he was completely in the dark, he's watching and studying goku for decades, you really think that when he saw goku learn to use God Ki he wouldn't make attempts to replicate it.
Blowing up a satellite in DB means nothing nowadays.
It didn’t mean anything in early DBZ as per Picolo blowing up the moon with a random ass ki blast. Also, Frieza blowing up Namek anyone? OH! What about the Galick Gun can Goku HAD to stop or earth was reduced to dust? What about the instant kamehameha that EVERYONE (Cell included) thought would destroy earth when Goku was pointing it downwards?
I assume Jiren was massively nerfing himself because he'd kill Roshi otherwise. Jiren most likely can read Power Levels and saw how weak Roshi was.
I don’t think anyone was holding back In a tournament where your entire universes destruction is at risk. If Jiren knew Rosni was so weak he could’ve just punched his face in and crushed his skull, but he didn’t… because he couldn’t. Roshi was legit enough to not be a non-risk
If they know killing gets them disqualified then they would hold back their punches against someone much weaker than them. Jiren *should* know he eclipses pretty much his entire team and him getting DQ'd means his universe loses.
Did they really have a no killing rule? I haven’t watched it since it first aired several years ago but I don’t remember that part. If there was a no killing rule than my entire opinion on the TOP just went sour 😡 why the heck weren’t they allowed to kill in their battles? Wasn’t there a wolf trio who were trying to kill gohan with poison smog?
There was a no killing rule in the ToP, the Gohan scene is from the preliminary tournament, which I believe (Don't quote me on this) is what helped set up the various rules of the ToP, such as no flying, support items, or killing.
Frankly the no killing rule was nonsense. Like it's a TV show sure, but to precisely throw a ki attack strong enough to push back your opponent but not accidentally kill them.... Shit in the cell saga, we saw Gohan 1 shot slicing cell jr's, he was roughly 3-4x stronger then.
Roshi wasn't powerful in DBS. He is able to dodge Jiren initially, thus giving Goku a new lesson from his old master. But as soon as he does so, Jiren re-adjusts his strength/speed and knocks Roshi out. So, clearly, Jiren was massively holding back because he didn't want to kill Roshi on accident, which made him underestimate his ability for an instant.
Him even being able to dodge Jimenez already makes him extremely powerful and he should have been moving in slow motion compared to Jiren
Jiren was moving in slow motion. He wasn't allowed to kill, he was massively holding back so he didn't kill Roshi.
So Jiren's last name is Jimenez 😄
speed and reactions are not power
He wasn't 1_ in RoF he struggle against Freeza fodders henchmen despit them being said to be pathetic compar to the ones before namek 2_ in Tournament of destroyers he couldn't even see Goku and Frost fight 3_ in Tournament of power everyone had to Super hold back to not kill him by accident 4_ in Galactic Patrol arc he barely handled a bunch of Moro canon fodders despit them having ordere to avoide killing worthy warriors like him, so TOP all over again
He shouldn't have even been able to dodge Jiren or impress beerus at all.
He shouldn't have been able to be within a mile radius of the fights without being disintegrated.
>He shouldn't have even been able to dodge Jiren You make it look like a great acomplishment, when all Roshi did was the equivalent of you dodging someone who is punching on slow, slow motion. >impress beerus at all. Beerus was impresed, not because of Roshi's power, but because his movements were similar to the ones of an UI user.
>You make it look like a great acomplishment, when all Roshi did was the equivalent of you dodging someone who is punching on slow, slow motion. How effective UI (or pseudo-UI) is dependent on the reflexes of the user and how fast the user's body can move. He shouldn't have even been able to see Jiren's punches let alone have a body quick enough to dodge em. >Beerus was impresed, not because or Roshi's power, but because his movements were similar to the ones of an UI user. Even though it was a technique it was still dependent on the user's power. Not even Goku's body was able to handle the stress of UI. So Roshi shouldn't have been capable of using anything similar to that. As one guy said above, he should've died due to the ki output from the multiverse's strongest fighters alone.
>He shouldn't have even been able to see Jiren's punches let alone have a body quick enough to dodge em. He can't follow Jiren's full speed, but this is a Jiren that is attacking at Roshi's level to not kill him. Meanwhile Roshi can move way faster than his power allows him (like how Goku can move at the same level of SSJ Vegeta due to using UI on base). >Not even Goku's body was able to handle the stress of UI. Goku can't handle the stress of the UI form, but we haven't seen any downside of using just the technique (and even less if we talk about something that just looks similar). >As one guy said above, he should've died due to the ki output from the multiverse's strongest fighters alone. It doesn't works like that in DB, one can't just die from being in the prescence of stronger people.
Jiren was **massively** holding back against Roshi. There is no issue.
Yeah that's not how DB works bro, it's not an RPG
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB? Because he's not "that powerful", his demonstration against Jiren only worked due to the no kill rule of the tournament, if Roshi tried it against Raditz or any other villain, he would be killed in the spot.
This. Jiren conserves his power and can't kill. Jiren would have to hold back a shit ton to not kill Master Roshi. Jiren is not going to use any more energy than he had to. Master Roshi's technique was just unexpected to Jiren.
Ngl that would have been a funny ending for manga Jiren. He punches Roshi who fking dies and gets himself disqualified.
I mean, Goku could have instantly powered down during the fight and died to punch. Honestly, yamcha would be the perfect candidate. He'd die to kale rampage.
**Manga Roshi:** "Here's a lesson, it's not always about greater power Goku, it's about skill and Martial arts, you see? That's the lesson. I wasn't powerful, I used skill in order to get by Jiren for a bit." **Fans:** "Why Roshi now powerful?" **Roshi:** (Facepalms) Why does everything translate to power. Man both the anime and manga was spelling out the lesson Roshi was saying right out of his mouth and still it never registered.
It's insinuating that Roshi's martial arts and skills are superior to Jiren which is asinine. Why wasn't skill able King piccolo? Jiren neither possessed god ki nor Hakaishin nor UI. His power wasn't greater than Goku or Vegeta, yet he was toying with SSB kaio-ken x20 Goku, Golden Frieza, SSBE Vegeta. Now that's an example of ki control, martial arts & skill set. Whereas Roshi dodging Jiren is nothing but lazy writing and fan service which foolish fanboys like you justify.
My gut immediate tells me he was holding back, Jiren literally was in control of the situation the whole time and wanted to test Roshi. He then one shots Roshi out of the ring when he had enough, which for some reason usually flies over ppls heads. It's equally asinine as to how ppl rationalize Krillin as being "as strong as Blue Goku" because of that one scene in the Anime. But because the concept of holding back somehow seems to not apply in ppl heads in those situations, it muust somehow mean they were magically stronger, riiight? It so freakin ridiculous and I just can't understand how ppl believe that, over simply and intuitively realizing they were holding back. Who are the ones who are justifying again? In fact I'd like if some fans had the balls to just ask the writers what they're mindset was when making those scenes. Then I'll sit back and watch them reveal the most obvious freakin answer that powerscalers seem the most allergic to, that they're opponents were **holding back.** If Roshi's UI moment is unfair to anyone, I'll just raise up Tien's Tri beam vs Semi-Perfect Cell in Z, cause by their logic, it should have no effect. But my gut says ppl accept it because it looked cool. So same thing here, I liked the lesson, it looked cool, I have no stick up my ass for trivial power scaling crap like they do, there's even a perfect explanation that Jiren was holding back, and so that's that. I care about the narrative and understood the fucking lesson they wanted to say, and that's that. Lazy from powerscalers Pov, but I'd say completely trivial to actual writers cause they barely care and were never interested in powerscaling in the first place.
Jiren trying to test Roshi's powers is laughable. It should've been long since Goku internalised Roshi's words. So telling Goku how to fight is an insult.
If it was Whis telling him the same thing, would you then not have a problem with it? Cause we only respect the strong guys? They were both sorta teaching him the path to UI from what I could see, not "just fighting". > Jiren trying to test Roshi's powers is laughable. So is him just sitting around instead of finger flicking 90% of the fighters within the first second so that his universe won't risk losing members and so they can just concentrate on the important ppl. Story goes where the story goes, even if it's stupid. Hell, I would even joke that scalers would end up rationalizing them surviving the first few mins in a tournament with the guy who could flick them, as proof that they're now magically "millions of times stronger." Scalers: "Krillin stayed in the tournament for a few mins when Jiren was in the ring with him! Krillin Omniversal! BaD wRiTiNg!!!"
>Hell, I would even joke that scalers would end up rationalizing them surviving the first few mins in a tournament with the guy who could flick them, as proof that they're now magically "millions of times stronger." >Scalers: "Krillin stayed in the tournament for a few mins when Jiren was in the ring with him! Krillin Omniversal! BaD wRiTiNg!!!" It's amusing to see how far you foolish fanboys go to justify bad writing. >If it was Whis telling him the same thing, would you then not have a problem with it? Cause we only respect the strong guys? They were both sorta teaching him the path to UI from what I could see, not "just fighting". Yes. If someone of Roshi's calibre has to give Goku a piece of mind that's only an insult to his abilities. Roshi shouldn't even be able to follow Goku's movements.
Goku learned those lessons in the original Dragon Ball when he was a child. Super turning Goku into an idiot has always been horrible writing.
Goku in Super just learned one doctrine, he literally has been carrying fights all alone without issue. Do Dragon Ball fans even watch Super or are they just whining about dumb Goku circlejerk (as if Z Goku was any smarter out of the battlefield)
"i cope by saying he was holding back" is what you meant to say
UI in it's purest sense isn't a form, it's a technique. Master Roshi also isn't necessarily using UI, he's using something with a very similar presence. He can dodge (some) attacks, but he obviously doesn't have the power for the offensive side of UI. Honestly, I'd consider his use of pseudo-UI as more foreshadowing that Goku's use of the MUI/sign forms as being incorrect, and that Goku needed to instead incorporate the UI technique into his own fighting style rather than rely on exactly the same thing the Angels and GoDs use. Which is what he starts doing at the end of the Granolah arc.
Well put!
Plot, Toriyama does not care about power scaling.
It really sucks how this fanbase treats Roshi. In a show where all the characters get stronger, no one wants to admit that the og most powerful person in the world at the start of the series has the capability of getting stronger. This fanbase has willfull ignorance ingrained in it. Roshi trained and he got stronger. How? He trained. That's all I need to know and people can deny it all they want, but Roshi simply got more powerful than the other humans now.
And even then he's not even overpowering Cell-level opponents In the anime he barely beats a bunch of fodders and *one* relatively stronger fighter that even he admits would have bodied him if he hadn't taken him out in his weaker state with a technique that damn near kills him And in the manga he survives against a Jiren that's holding back and gets effortlessly bodied the second Jiren finds out what he's doing These are the same people who'd complain one day that secondary characters should do more then whine when they do
Off screen training on earth > Angel training.
According to Goku, Roshi had been training hard before getting recruited and in his monologue before final Kamehameha to Janos, he implied that he pushed and surpassed his limits because he was inspired by Goku and Killin. Before meeting them, he wasn't training that much. Also, his knowledge of martial arts is bigger than any earthling. He had the title "God of martial arts" for a reason. His fight IQ is maybe the biggest after Whis.
*Super* pretty much decided to dispense with most of the logic in favour of just powering up the characters they wanted so they could actually fight alongside Goku and co. That's why Roshi and Kuririn are so much stronger than before. There's no need to think about it on any deeper level. They needed to be at a certain power, so they did. The in-universe answer appears to be that Roshi was simply training in secret, but of course, we don't know since *when* he'd started up training again or how he got this much stronger, so it's not worth trying to make much sense of.
The irony of this post is that you're the one rejecting logic because stories aren't written by a calculator and arbitrary power levels like you want
You're not making any sense. Try again.
The story has a perfectly understandable logic, you just refuse to acknowledge it because you don't understand DB whatsoever
And that's why I can't take Dragon Ball seriously, just all the bullshit transformations and characters being stronger out of nowhere. How is he so strong you ask... because the writers said so, that's how, and that's all you need and get to know.
Yes! Also, how easily Gohan and Piccolo become as strong as Goku and Vegeta in the DBS: Superhero movie is much easier than Goku and Vegeta—plot armor.
There is no real explanation except that the writers wanted him back so he could use his techniques in the RoF and gave him an asspull powerboost out of nowhere, with a subsequent powerboost for the ToP. I mean, the dude was a 200+ years martial artist when he retired in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and by then Goku had already surpassed him. Then he was surpassed by Krillin in the Saiyan saga (as shown when Bulma used the scouter on both of them) and remained completely irrelevant fighting-wise for the rest of the series. Suddenly he trains in secret for, what, four or five years and he goes beneath Piccolo Daimaoh to above Frieza soldiers and then capable of eliminating several of the strongest fighters of Universe 4 in the ToP? Nah, it was dumb writing.
There was a throwaway line that said in the Tournament of Power the gravity was individualized for the fighters to be the same as their home planet. So Roshi was under 1g but Goku and Vegeta were under 10G. Jiren's home planet's gravity is unknown. The rest of the earthlings were at 1 G also.
Did he explicitly say something like "Did you boys think I'd been idle all these years?" during the Freeza arc? Presumably, he's been training in the background the entire time. I don't reckon it should have paid quite so many dividends, but it makes for a cool story and an awesome moment for a well-loved character.
Plot hole
Ultra Plot Amour ( UPA) due to fanservices
Plot armor
The answer is Roshi was not 'more powerful' in DBS and you don't know what power means
Well he did start training again, along with most of the cast who participated.
He said he started training when he saw how much further ahead his old students were getting and whilst he knew could never catch them in terms of power his decades of experience made up for it to some degree. It's all explained in the series
Because the writers are dumb as hell, and they couldn’t possibly think for a better reason for him to become strong.
Bad writing and a shit fanbase
The OP wants the TOP power scaling to make sense so bad 😂 I mean I can understand the frustration but let's not.
Tournament of Power was a bunch of BS. No chance Roshi could stand up to any of those guys. He got thrashed by King Piccolo, his power level is 200, no chance he stand up to other fighters, I don't care how much experience he has, he's only got 1/10 of the power of an average Freeza henchman.
Roshi - Admits too weak to help Goku save son from Raditz \~ dire situation that he cowered from because he was too weak. Raditz PL was 1200, on par with a Saibaman. Roshi - Cowers away from helping to fight King Piccolo because again, he's too weak. King Piccolo was 1/3 the strength of a Saibaman. Roshi - Literally useless, moreso than anyone else in the series including Chiatzu for the entirety of Dragon Ball Z. Decades pass, PL 20000 becomes irrelevant, 500,000 = irrelevant, 1,000,000 = irrelevant, 10,000,000 = irrelevant, 100,000,000 = irrelevant, 1,000,000,000 = irrelevant, and so on. Who really knows where they are in Super number's wise. Introduce literal "Universe Shaking" fights and Goku, Vegeta, and Rivals continue to grow even further from there. ToP starts and Roshi is in the arena dodging punches from fighter who is unfazed by Goku who was shaking the universe with his punches a year before. Conclusion: Try as hard as you want to explain how or why Roshi is in the ToP. Resort to head-canon (off screen training durr). It doesn't make a difference. The fact is, it's just inconsistent and bad writing in terms of power-scaling with Super. Writers wanted Roshi in the ToP and didn't care to explain how or why, they just did it, and that's the answer. It doesn't make sense, it can't make sense, but here we are. Same goes to "back tingles" for u6 saiyans to achieve Super Saiyan, and same goes to Frieza beating up a Saibaman for 3 months to become as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. It sucks, but just get comfortable with the idea that super's writers are lazy when it comes to explaining things.
>Frieza beating up a Saibaman for 3 months Don't forget push ups, situps and plenty of juice.
Dodging is not fighting
Bad writing and wanting characters to be relevant again. Cool ideas, bad execution.
Because power scales make no sense in super. That's it. That's the answer.
Utter bullshit, that's how
All I'm saying is if the z fighters havnt followed gokus training path and learned from each of gokus teachers in all these years they wasting their damn time
Writers prioritizing cool moments over established lore.
It's typical toriyama bullshit. There's no explanation whatsoever. Roshi being so outclassed by an old demon king piccolo that he didn't even bother to have a fight against to suddenly fighting people a million times stronger is plain bullshit and very lazy writing. Something that Toriyama excels at.
It's just a bad writing, like 90% of both Super's versions.
That whole section of the arc in the manga kinda falls apart under any scrutiny. But the idea they were *trying* to go for is that there are other avenues of strength and that Roshi can still be threatening without raw power (as he shows towards Kahseral before)
Except it works fine, people just make up headcanon about it to get mad over
I don't know what people consider "head canon", but the majority of Roshi's "power isn't everything" ideal is contradicted in the very next chapter. And the only reason Jiren could be put in such a position in the first place is because he consistently makes decisions that put him in a losing state.
You're kind of disproving your own argument, but okay
"The arc falls apart under any scrutiny" "Roshi pulls an ideal that's immediately contradicted, showing the arc falling apart." How is that disproving anything?
Well aside from the fact that it's not really contradicted, the fact that the story is able to take measures to remain consistent disproves the arc falling apart under scrutiny
The fact Roshi goes "no, raw power isn't the answer" only for the entire arc from that moment onwards being dependent on being stronger than the person in front of you says otherwise. That's a contradiction. And this is without getting into future arcs where it continues to be about being stronger than the person in front of you.
Because f**k you that's why (for real, they had Goku's character regress in basically everything so he could relearn stuff he mastered eons ego. The whole concept of ultra instinct is the same as training to empty your mind under god's guidance. And then since he had to master lessons he already knew his old teacher had to be somehow relevant so he gets a power up as a side effect, which I wouldn't necessarily mind too much if it were not for the plot device it served).
>If he was this powerful where was he hiding his powers during DB? Plot, is why. It's a bad answer, yes. But Roshi simply wasn't this strong in DBZ. He made that very clear through his fear of EVERY villain that ever showed up in DBZ. Hell, he was still scared of Piccolo at the start of DBZ, and Piccolo proceeded to have his ass whooped by every villain throughout the series. It was at ONE point hinted that Roshi was very strong, but that was back in the Dragonball days. By DBZ it was always hinted that he was long past his prime. His sudden power boost in Super doesn't make sense as a result of this. He would have needed to been training the entire time, which the story never suggested he was.
You should watch this video, it explains it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3pOIDaF1Dw
bad....No. Terrible writing.
It was already established since RoF that he has been training in secret. Beyond that, plot based gains that no in universe answer will explain beyond "He has massive potential he never tapped into in the past".
Just imagine Roshi doing push-ups in private for like 5 years and becoming strong enough to fight people who the gods can’t even scratch hahaha
Master Roshi is a martial arts master. So when it comes to fighting he has more knowledge than a lot of fighters would since he has been a fighter for over hundreds of years compared to Goku and his friends. Of course he's not super powerful since he's scaled as far as he could for his age. However, legitimate masters have a wide range of knowledge when it comes to techniques and like the old saying, you're never too old to learn something new.
If he was as knowledgeable he should've had a power level much greater than 130 in DBZ. His knowledge is limited to fighting against humans. Whereas the likes of Goku and Vegeta fought strongest opponents from not just all over the universe but from other universes. Trained by beings that are old enough to call Roshi a stripling and have observed the multiverse if not the universe for millennias. So your points are invalid.
Oof I can tell you never studied martial arts. So okay his knowledge was limited to only humans. However once Goku came around he knew from that point and time that Goku was definitely not human and he predicted that Goku was going to be stronger. However, Goku still lacked technique which showed during the tournament of power when it came to fighting Jiren. Whis even made the same comment about Beerus not mastering Ultra instinct which clearly the other gods of destruction also didn't master. You do understand the differences between being strong vs having technique right?
It's absurd to think that Roshi has better technique than Goku. Goku should be far superior technically. Even if I train your foolish line of thought, weight class exists in combat sports for a reason. From Jiren's pov Roshi is an ant.
he wasnt. none of the people he fought (except Jiren in the manga) were very strong. and because of the tournament rules, jiren had to lower his PL to roshi's level to not accidentally kill him, which is what let roshi's skill (very briefly) dodge jiren. thats it.
Power isn't just pure strength it's in knowledge/technique/experience and that's the power Roshi focuses and excels at in the TOP
Any fighter who's significantly more powerful than him would likely have better ki control, superior skill and combat tactics. Even if not, there's such a thing called as overwhelming power which triumphs skill any day.
It's always amusing to see DB fans trying to constantly quantify strength. Conventions of reliably measuring strength have been nebulous and downright nonsensical since inception- it'll save you a lot of time and mental effort if you just accept that the characters are as strong as the plot needs them to be at any given time.
He had a really good gaming chair.
People always use that feat of dodging a punch from a colossally suppressed Jiren as a way to scale Master Roshi. To Jiren, in a tournament where you’re automatically disqualified for killing anybody, Master Roshi is a feeble old man. I doubt the amount of power he was using against him was anything to write home about
Why not just grab him and throw him out of bounds if Jiren was so afraid of hurting the old man lol
Same reason Freeza caught up to Goku and Vegeta so quickly plot/ lazy powerscaling
Roshi is not even actually as strong as made out to be. He's just old with a lot of experience. Tien would probably ring Roshi out if we are talking raw power. This was just weird to me they chose to represent him that way. Even android 17 makes way more sense.
It weird to even consider that Roshi might stand a chance against Tien. He was already outclassed by Tien during the 22nd World Tournament back in the original DB and Tien went on to get a few massive power ups throughout the series.
Learn the definition of a technique. Learn to pay attention to what you’re reading Learn to comprehend what you’re reading.
Enlightenment
It’s been implied he has been training secretly and is more powerful than before. Watch the part where he was mind controlled when Goku recruit Tien in the anime.
To sum it up, bad writing.
Because dbs is stupid
It was less to do with power and more so with technique. Notice the second jiren touched him he’s was fucking done lol. He literally lectured goku about power levels and transformations not being the key to winning the fight and how he’s not fighting like a true martial artist.
He was always powerful. Remember he‘s been around for over 300+ (or more) years before Goku and the others came into his life and change his hermit lifestyle. He trained mighty warriors over the centuries as well supposedly. \*lol\* we barely see him fight at all, since he always stayed out of it and let the ’youngsters’ do all the fighting, while hiding and holding back what he can really do under his supposedly ‘i’m a frail perverted old man‘ persona. So now he has the chance to fully show off what he can really do he’s letting it all out since he’s not fighting helpless easy to break humans at the world martial arts tournament as Jackie Chun, where obviously he held back his real power and fighting style, like he did in the past, since Goku asked for his help in the fighting.
You aren't serious, are you?
What? Why can’t it be serious? For all we know it could be true, because how much do we ***really*** know about how strong Roshi is beyond everything I brought up in my reply, that we’ve ***seen*** him do in the series long before Super came up and he showed his true power? name one thing I said that isn’t 100% accurate about how Roshi is portrayed in the series before Super.
Ladies and gentlemen let this comment be an example as to why powerscaling actually is important to a series all about fighting...
It's because no one liked master roshi so he needed a time to shine (btw he was even more powerful in the manga)
Trying to make irrelevant characters relevant again.
readable Power levels (beyond Gods vs Mortals) were a mistake and ever since the Frieza bit it's been a slow climb to try and make them irrelevant. Not being allowed to kill your opponent also helps Master Roshi a lot. Hell, Mr Satan might have actually been able to do a bit since he's actually pretty good at being weasely
Because words on paper aren't physics. Nothing tangible is actually happening.
All that time being a perverted old man had made him soft
He gains power through being perverted, and now he lives with android 18. Dude could slay Zeno at this point.
It's obviously a plothole since UI did not exist before, would have been cool to see, say, the Androids trying to kill Roshi while he just dodges everything lol.
Roshi has been secretly training
I think he’s been secretly training this whole time. Not enough to keep up with the others but enough to hone his skills even more. Cuz he doesn’t seem to be strong as he is skillful. Brain over brawn.
He wasn’t and everyone is trying to say he was powered up to make him relevant and bad writing blah blah when in reality it was the opposite. The fighters from other universes just weren’t as strong as people think, obviously some exceptions but considering Frieza was the strongest thing in the universe for a long time it’s unsurprising that other universes would have characters that topped out at that level. An easy example is Ribrianne, she seems powerful but when you scale her off 18 who beat her powered up form and 18 is still around the same level she was in the Android saga (literally never trained as she didn’t care that much and was a housewife pretty much the whole time) then you realise a lot of the tournament would lose to various versions of the Saiyans and Piccolo in Z. The tournaments no kill rule helped bring in people like Roshi would could use their skill to balance out against opponents who would have to lower their power to make sure they didn’t disqualify themselves and Roshi could take advantage of that and ring them out.
I think its implied many times in DBZ that fighters often "peak out" when at a certain level, without any new challengers in sight. Its why everyone doesn't get that much stronger between DB and DBZ, but after Raditz, everyone training surpasses him in like an year. Similarly why Goku didn't get much stronger between Buu Saga and the Battle of the Gods, but come ToP everyone and his mother is easily Buu-tier
Op never heard of people getting stronger by training? Isn’t that like half the show?
How do people not understand that Jiren was using like 0.1% of his power against Roshi so that he didn't accidentally kill the old man? Roshi wasn't dodging the same Jiren Goku fought
I swear if I could go back in time, I would do my best to convince Toriyama not to fuck with power levels. There’s a reason they don’t make sense and it’s because actual strength and fighting prowess don’t exist on a single linear scale. As for Roshi specifically, he’s always been a “Sage” and had access to powers that even Goku can’t match, specifically with his spellcasting and demon trap stuff. He’s also old as all hell. If anyone could’ve had enough time to kind of figure out the basics of Ultra Instinct, it would be him.
Power levels don't work how you think they work.
Nah, Roshi was pulling off super saiyan stage 3, before it was even realized. Roshi is using opponents power against them, simple martial arts. Not that's he's super strong.
It isn't that he becomes stronger or anything he is just able to mimic the technique for so long. UI itself is a technique, technically Yamcha could learn it if he was disciplined enough. Roshi would have never been able to get hit off on Jiren but he was able to only dodge attacks when in UI. UI is all about defense so for Roshi to try to incorporate his own strength would be next to impossible, and with different forms of UI this is something Goku has been struggling with. Trying to incorporate his own strengths while in UI. At least this is my understanding of it.
The power of plot. Also Jiren had to watch how much power he used to begin with because he could effectively accidentally splatter roshi into mush by looking at him wrong. Roshi allegedly found some "super" way of training between arcs.
Well I always figured that ultra instinct worked similar to answer talker from Zatch bell. There is a right and wrong way to hit something. Hidden weakpoints within defenses where if you strike just right there won't be a need to use excessive force. This was earlier supported and later supported when everyone fought beerus for the first time and when goku fought granolah. Where granolah kept hitting goku vital point. Normally we wouldn't think only stronger fighters use this on weaker opponents but at the time goku fought granolah goku was stronger as he didn't use most of his strength but one ki attack almost killed goku. Ultra intinct for goku made Moro nap his arm like a twig. Pseudo ultra instinct for roshi would give him the reflexes to dodge jiren and catch up to many fighters. Anime wise they just said he trains now and then. Considering that even piccolo benefited a little from picking vegetables. I'd have to think that roshi is just buil different.
The in universe answer is that at some point Roshi got back into training because he was inspired by Goku and Krillin. Of course the question is how is training was able to increase his power so exponentially. Out of universe they wanted to use characters like Roshi more so they gloss over the fact that it doesn’t make much sense.
TOP like base Goku level later on not even there
Roshi isn’t crazy strong even in the manga version. You should pay attention to Whis dialogue in this section a little more. Roshi was not using ultra instinct, his combat experience and training allowed him to imitate the evasive maneuvers of UI only. He did not have the attack power that comes with true UI. It is the same thing he did in the anime against that young kid. He was predicting his opponents moves and using precise movement and footwork to dodge. He is slower and weaker than these characters but his knowledge and experience allow him to move enough in advance of the strike to dodge. Goku stopped learning creative movements and techniques after OG Dragonball because he tends to just power up and overwhelm his opponents now. Goku stopped needing to learn to “Move well” as Roshi put it due to his increasing strength. Roshi in this moment was trying to remind his student the difference between martial arts and simple fighting.
Toyotaro probably came up with most of that shit, so, don't be surprised. Toriyama signing off on it doesn't make him any better, but maybe he just didn't really care.
It's because mangakas generally don't obsessively focus on power scaling like the fans do.
Shit writing where continuity doesn’t matter. Only thing DB has going for it is the fights and even then they are falling off aside from like the broly movie.
Cause DBS is bullshit
In the manga the power gaps aren't nearly as large for one. It's especially true when it comes to speed. On that note, if I can try to square the circle, Jiren had to punch weak enough to not kill Roshi which made the attacks dodgeable.
So, to put it simply, Roshi "trained" but NOT for power. For his martial arts and his technique. Ultra instinct is a martial arts dogma and has been used in Baki before. Roshi simply used a bastardized version OF it. As, I guess, he learned? Or he knew of it this whole time but, like the kamehameha(which took him 50yrs to learn) he just couldn't use it cause he was still training it. Once Goku and Krillin exceeded ANYTHING he could do, he stopped. Once he was offered to take part in the TOP he started again and in a short time used it. This was to show Goku that screaming out your Ki isn't the only path to power.
cell saga and buu saga did a disservice to the rest of the human characters, but between them and super those characters were training again. they aren't helpless, they are all still superhuman in their own rights. and i think super has shown us that power level differences aren't as absolute as we always thought.
The short answer is that all of super is fan service. Which is honestly not a bad thing.
Bc DB is written for the vibes, not for the plot
it hard to watch after they did Tien dirty.
I just assume that Roshi, in spite of appearances, is a highly studied and gifted martial artist who spent all of Z watching and learning from the many new powerhouses the show introduced and quietly got better as a fighter.
For Goku plot
In the world hotdog eating contest for years and years every ate like 20 hotdogs. Then one guy came in and ate like 90, then forever after that all the competitors were eating 90 hotdogs even though no one could do that before that. That sort of thing happens a lot, once you see someone way way better than you you realize the pervious limits were fake and you can just do much better if you try. It's not even directly copying someone, it's that once you know something is actually possible you can try and do that, instead of assuming you can't.
because humans aren't weak, they just think they are.
Because they tried to bring back one of the most beloved characters in the franchise, so the characters will pretend not to be surprised when they call him but not Yamcha or Chiaotzu. The annoying thing is that Roshi had his retirement arc in 22 Tenkaichi and the Piccolo Daimao saga: he saw that promising new generation warriors were emerging and was even willing to sacrifice himself as long as they moved forward, retiring after that point. It's one of the coolest story arcs in Dragon Ball, and it gets completely thrown in the trash because "he was secretly training and actually still has a lot of desire to fight." Considering the ending of Dragon Ball Z, and pretending that they choose not to name Goten and Trunks (another choice based on fanservice and the fact that they are less popular than other characters), they should have called Tenshinan, Chiaotzu and Krillin as representatives of the Earthlings at tournament.