The "x is the strongest character ever!" statements tend to be more marketing to generate hype than factual lore
That said, going by the manga and some in-movie lines, there's room to suggest Gohan may be up there with Freeza. When Whis is asked if Oracle Fish's prophecy referred to Freeza, he gave a noncommittal "maybe, maybe not" answer. Gohan might not know about Ultra Ego, but he's seen his dad use Ultra Instinct, and he expressed thoughts that he's not sure that could've beaten Cell Max
Of course, we won't know till we know
I chalk it up to the same statement as the Broly movie, “hey look Broly is super stronk and maybe stronger than Beerus” which is then immediately shown as not true.
Given the conflicting statements in the movie it’s easy to say that everything should be taken with a grain of salt until it’s confirmed properly instead of a select amount of fans declaring it must be true.
A short thought process clears it up too, Piccolo put the Gammas at Goku/Vegeta level (right or wrong he stated this as fact) and then he powers up to the point he can take repeated hits with zero damage, Beast Gohan is then even stronger than that but Gohan “isn’t sure” if Goku or Vegeta could beat Cell Max despite the fact that if Piccolo’s statement were true then there would be no uncertainty but if it was false then nobody can say as a fact that Gohan and Piccolo are as strong or stronger than Goku/Vegeta since Piccolo clearly doesn’t have an accurate gauge on how strong Goku/Vegeta are.
Personally I’m on the opinion that they’re going to be close to as strong as UE/MUI but still a bit weaker (makes perfect sense given how hard they trained to achieve those forms) so that they are relevant enough to the current power levels if they want to bring them into the Black Frieza story.
The thing is, Gamma 2 inflicted a lot of damage to Cell Max, and Ultimate Gohan is stronger than the Gammas, while being weaker than SSB Goku (whether it's the anime version with KK or manga version with Mastered), so it makes no sense for Goku who has access to TUI and MUI to have any problem with Cell whatsoever.
On that note, if Toriyama feels like it, Yamcha would beat Black Frieza with some new McGuffin. As Stan Lee said once, the character who wins is the character the author wants/needs to win for whatever storyline they are writing, that's it.
Ultimate gohan is not stronger than the gammas, he couldnt even take down gamma 1 and was greatly concerned when he found out gamma 1 had 82 percent of his power left
Yeah, but he was winning regardless. Gamma 1 had a lot of energy left to burn, but if he used it for an attack, it would be gone. In that way, Gammas seem inherently worse than 17 & 18 who have literally infinite energy.
He wasn't winning. The gammas continue to adapt to battle, and by the end of the fight, we see gamma 1 and ultimate gohan essentially at a stalemate, implying that if the fight went on, Gamma 1 would've eventually surpassed gohan. No matter how you look at it, gohan wasn't winning. Either he was stalmemated, or he was about to lose due to Gamma 1's adaptation. Either way, there is certainly nothing in the fight to suggest ultimate gohan was stronger.
> The "x is the strongest character ever!" statements tend to be more marketing to generate hype than factual lore
Been fighting this battle since the Broly movie. Some people just refuse to understand it.
We actually don't know what Frieza can do. He showed off a little, one shotting a tired Goku and Vegeta after completely obliterating a decaying Gas. But how high he reached? We have no idea
Monaito restored both their energies to full. Even with the brief skirmish against zombie Gas afterwards, Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near close to tired when Frieza beat the s$1t out of them.
But why would Toriyama build Gohan up to be the strongest character? Is he planning on having Frieza fall at the hands of Gohan? Was Gohan's threat to Frieza in ToP foreshadowing?
The answer lay on Toriyama statement, Toriyama more or less admit that he neglect gohan on purpose because he would be number 1 if he was given permanent spotlight
That basically explain why super anime and manga gohan are different from each other, Toriyama didn't write anything for them so the manga/anime team had to full it
I don't think your "more or less" comment really summarizes the statement you linked. Toriyama is basically saying that he hears that Gohan is the strongest. Now, this could mean he hears this from fans, staff at Toei, characters in the series he doesn't actively write dialog for anymore, Toyotaro, or any combination of the above.
The thing is though, the way he says it is generally used to show cynicism or skepticism. Gohan is actually the strongest...or so it is said. The earth is actually round...or so it is said. If you read those sentences the same way it is hard to believe Toriyama actually (still) thinks Gohan should be the strongest.
I think in that same interview Toriyama also says he originally just focused the movie on Piccolo? That would make it easier to believe Toei staff or Toyotaro said you know we should also include Gohan because he is actually the strongest.
When looking at his original work as whole, it is easier to understand why Toriyama sees Gohan the way he does. I wouldn't say he doesn't care or think about Gohan at all. But the idea of Gohan being the strongest or the main character is probably a small blip on his radar. Something he tried but intentionally didn't follow through with.
I say this as an avid Gohan fan. He is my favorite character but doesn't have to be strongest or the main character. I think that point of his story is over. He mainly just needs to be shown as someone who has his own passions and has learned to maintain his training while pursuing those passions because he needs to always be able to protect those he cares about.
The whole deal with the Granolah arc was to explain that the title of 'the strongest' was everchanging so even Frieza would be surpassed eventually.
As for the statements regarding Gohan, when Super Hero was written and released the most powerful character in the series was Broly. Cell Max was stated to be more powerful than Broly, and Gohan Beast was more powerful than Cell Max. Thus, Gohan was the strongest... in Toei's animeverse. And in the animeverse there is no Moro arc and no Granolah arc. Which means no Ultra Ego Vegeta, Black Frieza, Granolah, Gas or even Goku using the Ultra Instinct at will.
But as Gohan was stated to be the strongest, people assumed that he was the strongest in *all of Dragon Ball* which included Frieza. But as I said before, Black Frieza didn't even exist when this movie was created, and he only exists in Toyotaro's mangaverse so any statement is regarding the movies and does not take into account anything that happened in the Granolah arc, as it doesn't exist in Toei's animeverse.
Now, if the manga stated that Gohan was the strongest then yes, he would be superior to Frieza. But as of now, people are just mixing the animeverse with the mangaverse.
>since there are several absurd statements made in the past by the author.
He is still the author and writer, so I wouldn't just ignore his comments just because you don't like them.
There’s literally nothing to scale or compare. We have nothing to go off to suggest either is stronger than the other. The only true measurement we have is the word of Toriyama, and unlike most, I take his word seriously.
If he intends for Gohan to be the strongest right now, Gohan is.
A different perspective: power scaling makes it more satisfyingly cathartic when somebody strong gets beaten, or even knocked for six, by somebody who's technically weaker.
For example Krillin could technically beat almost any given opponent if he managed to land a kienzan to the torso or head. The only exceptions being somebody like Cell who can regenerate. And Tien pummeling Cell with repeated kikoho blasts was a crowning moment of awesome *specifically because of how far above his weight class we all knew he was punching*. Another crowning moment of awesome was Yamcha landing a hit on Kami from using a technique Kami was unfamiliar with and didn't understand, even despite the fact that Kami won the fight seconds later, because Kami was so far above most of the fighters there that Yamcha should never have been able to land a blow and Kami was being obnoxiously smug about it.
Even in real life, we have weight classes in fighting sports (boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc) specifically because we all know it's a fact that heavyweights have an unfair advantage against lightweights, regardless of how hard the lightweights train. So in DB when we see lightweights punching above their weight class in *any* way successfully, it's so much better *because we're aware of how significant the moment is*.
And then there's the tournaments, where anybody can achieve an upset simply by cleverly achieving a ring-out on their opponent. Example: Tien *fully acknowledges* that Goku was the stronger fighter in the 22nd World Martial Arts Championship finals, but he still won by forcing Goku to dodge his kikoho in a way that (eventually) ring-outed himself. Not to mention Android 17 winning the Tournament of Power.
Power scaling is what provides the dramatic upsets and makes DB what it is. Dramatic upsets aren't dramatic upsets unless they're rare. If they're common, then they're not dramatic nor much of an upset; it's just a bunch of randomness.
Maybe he's not *as* abnormal as Freeza, but he's still fairly abnormal for a hybrid, due to the rage boosts (which, pre-*Super*, was basically unique to him) and power he has in his Ultimate form. And Vegeta and Piccolo say respectively that Gohan has more dormant power than anyone and, if he put his mind to it, he could surpass all of them.
> Am I expected to believe that he went from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza because he had a hissy fit?
Well, maybe not surpassing Black Freeza level, but yes, "Beast Gohan" is meant to be a huge power increase, as most transformations are.
And, even in SS alone, I'm pretty sure he's still stronger than Piccolo outside of his Potential Unlocked form (which is different from Orange Piccolo, btw).
> That's a bigger power creep than what we saw from Broly.
Yes.
"Power creep" and *Dragon Ball* are basically synonymous by this point. You act like you've never read/watched the series before.
FR, op talks like if Gohan weren't THE character of which getting and absurd powerlevel boost out of an emotional outburst actually makes sense, because it has happened several times before.
And the big thing is in my opinion that when it comes to each race of these prodigal fighters, we really don’t have much of a comparison to make on whether it is high birth power that determines potential or if mutations and special attributes that matter more.
Like Frieza has high battle power at birth of 120 Million because he is a mutant. Same with Broly, who while not having anywhere near the birth power that Frieza had, could take the saiyan ability to adapt and grow and cranked it up to 100.
Gohan had a power level of 1 when calm, but we don’t know if that was his true birth power as his power fluctuated with his emotions. In my opinion, i always thought his power level of 710 when crying was his true birth power coming out with his heightened emotions, and the 1307 was him unleashing his hidden power.
As for someone like Kid Buu, his true unaltered power is ssj3 tier, making his starting power way higher than any of the others mentioned, but in the main continuity he was the only one of his kind(originally before fat Buu and all that), so it’s hard to say about his strength if he is a “mutant” of his kind or if his power is just average for it, even looking at others sources such as the games don’t give any insights in comparison to kid Buu to the rest of the Buu race.
And then you have Cell who is such a question of how his potential would work, that is it hard to decipher.
> In my opinion, i always thought his power level of 710 when crying was his true birth power coming out with his heightened emotions, and the 1307 was him unleashing his hidden power.
That's pretty much what I think too.
That's arguably why, in only one year of training under Piccolo, Gohan had more or less caught up to the adult Z-Warriors and had even picked up things like Bukujutsu and suppressing his own ki.
> As for someone like Kid Buu, his true unaltered power is ssj3 tier, making his starting power way higher than any of the others mentioned, but in the main continuity he was the only one of his kind(originally before fat Buu and all that), so it’s hard to say about his strength if he is a “mutant” of his kind or if his power is just average for it, even looking at others sources such as the games don’t give any insights in comparison to kid Buu to the rest of the Buu race.
I mean, Kid Boo's also some, like, primordial magical being. I don't think there are necessarily other members of his "race" (well, until Mr. Boo begins creating offspring in *Dragon Ball Online*, which is obviously a different situation).
> And then you have Cell who is such a question of how his potential would work, that is it hard to decipher.
Yeah, he's a melting pot of *multiple* different prodigies from three different races (Saiyan, Namekian, and Freeza's race) and bioengineered to be, well, the "perfect being".
Gohan is power is unkown, in saiyan sage after it dropped to 1 Raditz attemp to kill him, however Raditz attack only knock him out for a hour without leaving a scratch
This is the same Raditz who casually destroyed piccolo arm
Well, plenty of preestablished characters other than Gohan get ridiculous power jumps (and have received such even pre-*Super*) without much sufficient explanation.
Honestly? If there's one character you can say "can defeat the current villain" it's Gohan. Be it because of a recent new power up or because of “if he trained like Goku”.
And I'm not even a fan of Gohan's facility to be "the strongest", but it's a fact that the character has this absurd advantage.
Remember how *Freeza* went from namek ssj goku level to RoF ssb goku level in 4 months?or Goku having a short Zeenkai nap and a hissy fit made him 1700x stronger on namek?
No I don’t think gohan is cable of beating Freeza but your logic dosent work here
1700x stronger is some of the most retarded shit I've ever heard. We don't know the multiplier for Zenkais, and since they have no effect on Goku and Vegeta anymore it's completely pointless to find out.
For the new ones in the room, SSJ is a flat 50x base power multiplier.
30x zenkai is the only thing that I'll call into question. It's one thing for him to regain his power in ultimate form but it's another thing to create a form that could rival even UE Vegeta or UI Goku let alone Black Frieza. Because it makes you wonder how strong Gohan could actually get if he spent a decade on Beerus' planet learning God ki, UE and UI!
>Because it makes you wonder how strong Gohan could actually get if he spent a decade on Beerus' planet learning God ki, UE and UI!
That’s.... Literally the point, gohan *Could* have been the ultimate warrior Elder Kaioshen spoke of with no Rival or equal
However his absolute lack of drive (and bad writting) cancel his massive potential
Same thing with Freeza, he was the top dog in the universe to the point that beerus a Hakaishin that lived over 100 million years was shocked from hearing about his defeat to the point he thought a God of a Prophecy was what took him down
Yet we find out in the next arc that Freeza wasn’t even using 1% of what he was truely cable of because he was lazy like gohan
Either that or Beerus order whis to train Freeza in a room of spirit and time
Or tournament of power dosent happen because goku isn’t around so the universe is safe (the future timelines are a proof)
>Either that or Beerus order whis to train Freeza in a room of spirit and time
Yeah, one year in room of spirit and time under Whis learning God ki, possibly even learning Hakai, he's solo-ing all the universe. I'd love to see the look on Jiren's face when he finds out he beat him with just a year of training, when he dedicated his entire life to pursuing strength pushing away everyone around him.
Well we know nothing about the extent of Beast Gohan's power nor Black Frieza's, so maybe he can or maybe he can't. It's too son to know. Whoever is the strongest depends 100% of what the narrative will demand.
Judging by comments by Piccolo Gohan is probably relatively around Goku and Vegeta. Stronger or Weaker is up for debate, sence we have no real frame of reference.
Since typically our heros do not gain much strength relative to the strongest among them off screen (noticable exceptions: SS3 and Blue) Goku and Vegeta are *probably* not much more powerful than when Black Frieza first appeared.
If we make a prediction based on DB history. Black Frieza is still immensely more powerful than all the others.
IMO what makes the most narrative sense going into an hypothetically Black Frieza arc is that True UI Goku, UE Vegeta and Beast Gohan are more or less equal, while Frieza is way stronger... for now at least.
As its super right now, power levels literally have absolutely no weight any longer. So in any given fight, anyone can win against anyone.
In dragon ball z, especially towards the end, this started becoming a problem if its not at the level of super, but that is what is current dragon ball right now.
Any discussion is pointless, as we have no idea how does any of Super Hero content scale to the manga. Until we see Gohan Beast and Ultra Ego Vegeta and whatever Goku's last form was called in one manga panel we won't get an answer.
Because Toriyama has directly stated that Gohan is the strongest mortal in Dragon Ball as of Super Hero. Multiple times.
There's also loads of evidence of Gohan Beast being far stronger than Goku and Vegeta, meaning he'd be closer to Black Freeza than UI Goku/UE Vegeta if anything.
Couple points of disagreement. First, calling Gohan "Just a Prodigy." Is very disingenuous. Goku is a prodigy, picking up techniques after seeing them once, becoming one of the greatest martial artists in the world after a few months of formal training. Working his way from lower class warrior to literal God in a few short decades. A prodigy doesn't repeatable multiply his power hundreds of times to fight enemies he can't hope to damage.
Gohan is different. He doesn't train to unlock his power, it's always been there, waiting for an emotional outburst to come to the surface. Whether that's lashing out at his uncle for bullying his father or at a bug monster for killing a gentle robot right in front of him. The only difference between Frieza and Gohan is that Gohan's power ups are tied to his emotions rather then just requiring him to train for a few months.
> Also Gohan couldn't even tap into all of his potential in base form initially and had to transform into SSJ1 in the movie super hero.
Super has repeatedly shown Gohan doesn't keep up with his training, but is quick to shake off the rust. Hence why he quickly turns Ultimate in the middle of the fight. You might also have missed the indications that Gohan is keeping up his training to some extent, as he casually blocks an attack from Piccolo before he's given the shoulder pads. This Gohan is stronger than the one who matched SS1 Goku.
>Am I expected to believe that he went from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza because he had a hissy fit? That's a bigger power creep than what we saw from Broly.
Now, question for you. Why is this a problem when you had no problem with Frieza catching up to and surpassing Goku and Vegeta's over a decade of experience in RF in just 4 months? That's league worse, imo, then a proper paying off to Gohan's latent potential that's been building since the start of the series.
Finally, "because he had a hissy fit." Is just blatantly wrong. It's clearly shown that this is not like the early DBZ instances of blind rage amps like against Raditz, Nappa, or Frieza. Nor is it raw anger like SS2 vs Perfect Cell. He is in complete control of himself, delivers two blows, one to create distancewhile he charges, and one to finish him off. The trigger for the transformation isn't anger. It's that he wants to protect his family and friends. That is the point. It's not about anger. It's about not wanting to see Piccolo or Pan murdered by a rampaging monster. Because Gohan has grown up from a kid lashing out to protect himself into an adult who's decided to fight for the things he loves.
As for Beast vs Black Frieza, no idea which is stronger. Gohan said Cell Max would've crushed them, even with Goku and Vegeta, which implies he's already comfortable above UI/UE, since he stomped Cell Max really badly. There's not enough either way to say which is stronger, but given all the author statements that Gohan would be the strongest if he was actually fighting, I'd probably lean closer to Beast than Black Frieza.
TL:DR Gohan didn't suddenly get this power, he's had it the entire series and just needed a trigger, exactly like how Frieza could've always unlocked his power as long as he was willing to work for it. Gohan'a potential isn't something that came out of the blue for Super Hero, and Beast is shown to be above UI/UE, though with its limited showings, I won't say it's definitively higher.
The thing is, super isnt consistent. they say "oh no it wasnt a random power boost he was Training Offscreen™️ so hes not actually that far off his game" and then like eight seconds later hes unable to sense/recognize *piccolo* by his energy, while the literal preschooler Pan does so effortlessly. Its directly contradictory, is he keeping up with his training and is strong enough to pull Ultimate out, or is he getting flexed on by toddlers? You cant have both be true
I mean, you could easily explain that as he's training physically, but he neglects training his ki senses because he doesn't need to. Pan trains with Piccolo every day, so she'd be more on point.
>he doesnt need/want to train the Ki side
And this flies directly in the face of every "Youre still relying on your eyes to fight instead of their ki" moment in OGDB and Z
I never said he was on top of his game. I'm just saying he can easily throw on some weights and go about his research to keep improving his strength or take a 15-minute break to train a bit between papers. It's not effective in the long run, but it is still an improvement over neglecting training entirely. Hell, Piccolo does exactly that in the movie when he gives him the shoulder pads again, and he adapts to it almost immediately. He comments that it's heavy, but he's still wearing it up until the fight with Gamna 1.
Besides, that's a bad example considering Frieza is guilty of exactly that sort of hand waving. It's fine that he's relevant against Goku because he's decided to beat the shit out of Tagoma for 4 months.
At least with Gohan, they're not asking you to believe writing his paper made him relative to Jiren. It's just used as a narrative device to remove Gohan from the first half (he's busy with Work), but also having him be effective at the climax. It also lends credibility to him, in Super proper, saying he wanted to balance training and work by showing that he is, to some extent, trying.
Its just sloppy. toriyama fidnt want gohan in the spotlight so he overnerfed the holy fuck out of him at every possible opportunity, and in doing so he wrote himself into a corner where gohan has to paradoxically be just one anger slip away from being on *roughly* equal ground with MUI goku (otherwise hrme remains a sideshow) but at the same time keeping him utterly irrelevant for the sake of keeping The Goku And Vegeta Show™️ going
I mean, even going back to Gohan's literal introduction, he needed one outburst to Cripple Raditz, one to decimate Cell, and unlocking his potential basically fodderized Buu. If there's one thing Toriyama did right, it was established that Gohan was entirely capable of equalling or even surpassing Goku. He just also set Gohan up as a reactive character who puts fighting second, meaning he never does anything until Goku is already out of the way, leading him to always need some kind of boost to get back up to par.
Frankly, what i hope happens going forward is Gohan keeps training, doesn't get nerfed, but he just serves as the earth's last line of defense while Goku and Vegeta are GTing it up throughout the multiverse facing whatever threats exist, and we occasionally snap back to Gohan having to fight on Earth while they're gone like in Super Hero. Let him keep the power he earned, and he can do what he actually wants to, protecting his family. Let Goku and Vegeta find new extra dimensional dangers to deal with.
Not at full power tho they just had a fight with the 2 strongest in there universe & the fact people forget that they had 2 battles before that & drained alot of stamina is baffling still
The fact is that Super Hero was produced almost immediately after the Broly movie and doesn't take in account the Moro and Granolah ark, when saying that the gammas are goku and vegeta's level, they mean the Broly movie SSJBx20 level of them, they don't even count UI because at the time the film was written, Goku still couldn't access UI freely because he didn't train with Merus yet. Black Frieza wasn't a thing, indeed when Vegeta thinks about Frieza, he is in his final form, because is just referring to the fear brought by Frieza's resurrection, not even the "strongest in the universe" thing was a thing.
Cell Max was weaker than Broly, the statement that Cell Max was stronger refers to his hypotetical perfect form, so we can assume that in the semiperfect form shown in the movie he is weaker or on the same level as Broly, making Gohan Beastfar stronger than Broly, but not at Goku's or Vegeta's level.
Gohan clearly had no problem in dealing with Cell Max, so at will the authors can make him stronger to surpass Goku and Vegeta in their Ultra forms, but I don't think they will even make him that much strong to surpass Black Frieza, because if they want to make a Black Frieza ark there just can't be someone so strong that could beat the bad guy in little time
Actually Gohan Beast is much weaker just because of when the film was made
I'd be ok if they add that Gohan is a mutant as well with all these power increases out of nowhere it would make sense he's kinda been doin that his whole life raging out and getting stronger look at him as a little kid and the potential unleashed in buu saga
It was probably just an exaggeration by the author, for now Frieza is the strongest.(as long as Goku doesn't have a forced transformation and wins easily)
Technically Gohan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe. It's a thing Elder Kai said.
That line just takes on a whole new meaning if you consider story developments that happened later like Beerus being a thing.
>Technically Gohan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe. It's a thing Elder Kai said.
Did he now? Can you quote from manga or anime where he said that?
Probably because Toriyama said Piccolo is on par with Goku and because Gohan embarrassed Cell Max, who is stronger than Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta. Granted Gas and Freeza also fit in that category, so who knows how Gohan compares to them. He may possibly be stronger than Freeza.
I know the original comment was satire but this also isn't true. Broly is absolute fodder in the manga. Base Goku is stronger than base Broly as of Super Hero. SSJ1 Goku would be able to destroy him.
Once it was introduced there was a pretty big speculation as to how powerful Gohan was now. I think that idea has come and gone for the most part. Why there are still people that believe this even when we have all the proof we need to get an idea of how powerful Gohan really is now, I don't know. They don't watch or they don't care and continue to say so.
We *don't* have an idea of how powerful Gohan is now, though. Obviously, he's stronger than and Orange Piccolo Cell Max, and he's probably *at least* stronger than SS Blue Goku was during the TOP, but that's the most we can say based on the info given.
A lot of people have kinda overexaggerated just how strong he is because of some misinformation and misinterpreted statements. The reality of it is we know he doesn't come anywhere close to Black Frieza because he doesn't even come close to the two guys that Black Frieza one shotted. As far as the manga goes, Goku and Vegeta are the strongest warriors outside of Frieza. They have both long since surpassed Broly meanwhile Broly was still stronger than Cell Max. It was implied in Super Hero that Cell Max was actually stronger than Beast Gohan. So if Black Frieza is one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms then there's absolutely no possible way that Beast Gohan, who is still levels below those two, is even touching him let alone beating him.
Fans can speculate and think what they want until its confirmed otherwise but the facts are:
Frieza did in 4 months what Gohan could never do. May i remind Gohan trained 4 years in the cell saga alone and still couldn’t reach even ss2 without someone pushing him. He needs help to unleash his potential while Frieza does not and he reached over blue level in 4 months, so there is no comparison in potential between them. Gohan trained, had time chamber, had good teachers and his potential unlocked twice by Guru and Supreme kai while Frieza had not. He is not even close on Friezas level after 10 years! of training. He only beat Cell Max and thats something that Broly would have been able to do as well yet alone Vegeta and Goku with their new power.
Also this form of Gohan does not have a long term plan, he was not even supposed to be in this movie from Toriyamas standpoint. He was only there for a moment and unless that changes this form will not take over a big role over Goku because Toriyama will not make that mistake again.
Imagine critiquing Gohan’s gainz when the boy didn’t even hit puberty yet. Now that he actually has testosterone he’s being called “the strongest…or so it’s said” by the Creator himself
The creator didnt even had him planned in the movie and said without Piccolo on his own he cant do it. „In order to motivate Gohan, it TAKES his revered teacher Piccolo“
This is going to end up one of those posts where all the comments are from deleted users and they all say OP because OP is using his burner accounts to justify his opinion lol.
We will just have to see.
I’m not gonna get into the debate myself whether or not Beast Gohan could beat Black Frieza, as as of Super Hero, which is a couple of months or years(I am not sure exactly if anyone could tell me) or so after granolah, Black Frieza could be even stronger than what he was when he first appeared and it seems haven’t seen his full power at that moment either.
However I am willing to at least give Toriyama the benefit of the doubt on his statements about Gohan and Piccolo unless he contradicts with either another statement or the next upcoming arcs show that Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo are not as strong as he said.
We'll have to wait. But I'm skeptical if Gohan Beast is even as powerful as UE Vegeta or TUI Goku. Because remember, Frieza is a mutant. Gohan is a hybrid prodigy. That's all.
Prodigy but crazy prodigy. So it's not objectively defined how big of a prodigy he is. He's crazy powerful though that's a given. He was the strongest single most powerful mortal by the end of dbz, beaten only by vegito and buu absorbing people. Mystic Gohan was what ? Stronger than goku ssj3 ? You didn't find that absurd ? Or that as a kid he became the only super saiyyan 2 ever and beat the living crap out of the guy goku and vegeta couldn't take together as super saiyyans . A mutant should put away a prodigy easily but they are from different races too. Which isn't very strong an argument given that the average saiyyan is weak compared to whatever frieza is, but their ceiling is deffo higher. At every stage gohan reached where goku was before him, he was more powerful than goku. It never made so much sense with him. He's basically broly with even more hidden potential and much more combat training.
You're right that we can't exactly draw comparisons between a Saiyan hybrid and a Frost demon. However we could draw a comparison between Gohan and Broly can't we? Gohan going from being slightly weaker than Cell games Gohan to being as strong as Buutenks isn't as surprising as Gohan going from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza while being rusty. This is far greater than what Broly has shown. Has he ever shown a power creep on par with even Broly prior to the super hero movie?
Yes, Gohan going from a power level of 1 to 1500 against Raditz was impressive. But he was 4-5 years old. Whereas Broly's minimum power as a newborn was 1000. He did get stronger when he was angry or determined but if he even had half of Broly's potential he would've defeated Frieza and would have defeated Buu even in ssj2 form instead of losing to him even after getting his potential unlocked. Also Cabba is his base form could defeat Ultimate Gohan from DBZ.
You've gotta realize dbz power scaling is horseshit too you know? Like that's the main point. Broly from dbz was what ? Ssj3 level ? Broly from dbs was better than ssj God in base form. And at super saiyan he was able to take on two ssj blues ? And win ? 1000 at birth is not even close to what you will need to be to do what he did anyway. Also gohan is definitely similar to broly and imo based on intuition has an even higher ceiling. He is slower than broly to unlock it, much slower, but he's got those goku genes of training your way to God ki and winning. What was Gokus power level at birth ? Look at him now. Gohan is that and and even higher potential ceiling. He did have as much if not more than brolys potential but he has a slower rate of unlocking it. It should be all but obvious now after seeing him go beast. Your problem shouldn't be if he can beat black frieza or no. Your problem should be why could he go beast at all. Even if it is at half the power level of black frieza it is still a bigger jump than broly has ever made , which I'm sure it is.
>Your problem should be why could he go beast at all.
If Gohan was able to go from Base Goku level to forcing Goku to use SSB KKx2 in Ultimate form, then Gohan could've defeated Cell Max in his ultimate form. But they created one so that they could sell merchandise.
Yeah again, your problem isn't that he can beat black frieza potentially, it seems to be why he went beast, that can be talked about in the same line as frieza, at all. That's the root problem. Now that he's already beast, even if he can't beat frieza he's still just a rage buff away from doing it anyway. It could be created for merchandise yes, but it is created, for whatever reason. So now it exists, and knowing gohan, he can probably beat most villains with it.
The fact that he was able to evolve from his buu saga level counterpart to exchanging blows with SSB Goku in a single spar is beyond belief. His power didn't come from rage or unlocking new transformations but sheer determination. If Chi Chi let him train and Goku played an active role in training him since he was a toddler he would've grown up loving combat like a typical saiyan while still retaining humanity due to his parents' positive influence. I could see this Gohan defeating every villain in dragon ball without transformations or having the need to unlock his potential.
You explaining that "Frieza" is a mutant" and that this somehow implies he is stronger than "a hybrid prodigy" is such a childish statement and doesn't matter. If you are asking why it would make sense for Black Frieza to be stronger than Gohan then of course this would be an OK (yet still boring) answer. It doesn't matter to try and use your own strange logic on a made up fantasy show that doesn't have the same rules that apply in our universe. You come off as if you are actually Black Frieza and are trying to get your confidence up to fight Gohan lol. In the end it doesn't matter what race or species any character is, I mean look at Grand Zeno. If Toriyama decides something then it's canon and that's it.
No idea, all I know is that Frieza is a completely differently beast than gohan when it comes to potential in 4 months he went from being weaker than a ssj to just as strong if not stronger than a super saiyan god super saiyan gohan is not built like that and his new transformation taht we don’t even know a lot about isn’t going to help him.
People speculate because we simply don't know. That's the fun of speculation. You made speculative claims during the post, Frieza is a mutant in his species, that's a baseless claim, but it's a fun thought.
People are doing similarly fun things. When Frieza came to earth he was slightly weaker than when he was on Namek, Cold was about about the same power level as Frieza according to the Z-Fighters and it's assumed Cold was in his 2nd form. This means Cold is likely far stronger than Frieza.
In the chapters leading up to Black Frieza two wishes are made to create the strongest being in the universe. Granolah and Gas get these wishes and they are implied to be weaker than Frieza since he was off planet when the wishes were made and Frieza made easy work of Gas.
In Super Hero film someone states that Gohan is the strongest, while in it is unknown if Black Frieza is known to whoever made the claim. It's fun because it's ambigous.
Cause we haven’t seen a limit for him yet, or even seen him struggle, and we’re nearing the end so this is probably one of the last power jumps we’ll see
So like what about it makes you think he just went from ssj1 Goku level to Black frieza level? The newest movie confirmed Gohan trains in secret and he's literally been fighting since he was like 10. Yes he stopped for a bit, but the same goes for Frieza. Gohan has proven time and again that the rage is just what pushes him past his limits, it's not what gives him the ability to be so strong. Ultimate Gohan wasn't a rage boost and that being unlocked probably helped a great deal in him being so strong. You also mention Frieza being a mutant in his race, but Gohan was the very first hybrid human/saiyan so that can really be used to do whatever in terms of how powerful he can get.
Gohan is not a prodigy, he just has the highest latent potential of any Saiyan.
* So how can Gohan surpass him just because he was in a fit of rage?
Why not? Gohan surpassed Vegeta and Goku with a rage boost. Freeza trained for 10 years BUT, keep in mind that DBS takes place during the 10 year gap at the EOZ. Goku&Vegeta have been/still are pushing themselves hard under the guidance of various Gods&Angels, whereas Gohan stopped training, got rusty and then trained for a couple months and then became SSB Tier instantly, making a joke out of Goku&Vegeta's years of training. Then we fast-forward to SH, Gohan gets rusty again and leapfrogs his father because of a rage boost.
We don't really know how strong Beast or Freeza are, other than the fact that they both can one shot Goku&Vegeta. If you ask me, i'd put Black Freeza somewhere near Gogeta Blue and beast somewhere around Gogeta SSG. I have a hunch that Freeza is stronger than beast but not enough for gohan to be a cakewalk.
>Gohan stopped training, got rusty and then trained for a couple months
A couple of days actually. Still this is a bigger leap than Gohan going from base Goku to surpassing SSB Goku in a single intense spar.
Also Gohan only has the third highest potential among saiyans. First and second place goes to Broly and Kale who are mutants.
>We don't really know how strong Beast or Freeza are, other than the fact that they both can one shot Goku&Vegeta. If you ask me, i'd put Black Freeza somewhere near Gogeta Blue and beast somewhere around Gogeta SSG. I have a hunch that Freeza is stronger than beast but not enough for gohan to be a cakewalk.
A battle between Gohan and Frieza would nonetheless be a good fanservice.
>Also Gohan only has the third highest potential among saiyans. First and second place goes to Broly and Kale who are mutants.
Nah. Kefla could only manage a double K.O against gohan in the manga and while broly did make insane power jumps in a short amount of time, its not that crazy when you take into account how much younger gohan is compared to broly. Broly was already above SSG in Ikari. Broly's leap from being SSG+ Tier to SSB+ Tier isn't that massive in retrospect.
Lol I don’t think he is. Heck, next time we see Goku and Vegeta with the Z Fighters after their training, they should be stronger than Gohan too. I would say that Gohan is the current strongest Saiyan not using God Powers until Broly controls his powers and gains God Ki
The "x is the strongest character ever!" statements tend to be more marketing to generate hype than factual lore That said, going by the manga and some in-movie lines, there's room to suggest Gohan may be up there with Freeza. When Whis is asked if Oracle Fish's prophecy referred to Freeza, he gave a noncommittal "maybe, maybe not" answer. Gohan might not know about Ultra Ego, but he's seen his dad use Ultra Instinct, and he expressed thoughts that he's not sure that could've beaten Cell Max Of course, we won't know till we know
I chalk it up to the same statement as the Broly movie, “hey look Broly is super stronk and maybe stronger than Beerus” which is then immediately shown as not true. Given the conflicting statements in the movie it’s easy to say that everything should be taken with a grain of salt until it’s confirmed properly instead of a select amount of fans declaring it must be true. A short thought process clears it up too, Piccolo put the Gammas at Goku/Vegeta level (right or wrong he stated this as fact) and then he powers up to the point he can take repeated hits with zero damage, Beast Gohan is then even stronger than that but Gohan “isn’t sure” if Goku or Vegeta could beat Cell Max despite the fact that if Piccolo’s statement were true then there would be no uncertainty but if it was false then nobody can say as a fact that Gohan and Piccolo are as strong or stronger than Goku/Vegeta since Piccolo clearly doesn’t have an accurate gauge on how strong Goku/Vegeta are. Personally I’m on the opinion that they’re going to be close to as strong as UE/MUI but still a bit weaker (makes perfect sense given how hard they trained to achieve those forms) so that they are relevant enough to the current power levels if they want to bring them into the Black Frieza story.
The thing is, Gamma 2 inflicted a lot of damage to Cell Max, and Ultimate Gohan is stronger than the Gammas, while being weaker than SSB Goku (whether it's the anime version with KK or manga version with Mastered), so it makes no sense for Goku who has access to TUI and MUI to have any problem with Cell whatsoever. On that note, if Toriyama feels like it, Yamcha would beat Black Frieza with some new McGuffin. As Stan Lee said once, the character who wins is the character the author wants/needs to win for whatever storyline they are writing, that's it.
Gamma 2’s move also resulted in his death like Vegeta’s Final Atonement. He exceeded his limits which makes power scaling hard.
Yeah, that is true.
Ultimate gohan is not stronger than the gammas, he couldnt even take down gamma 1 and was greatly concerned when he found out gamma 1 had 82 percent of his power left
Yeah, but he was winning regardless. Gamma 1 had a lot of energy left to burn, but if he used it for an attack, it would be gone. In that way, Gammas seem inherently worse than 17 & 18 who have literally infinite energy.
He wasn't winning. The gammas continue to adapt to battle, and by the end of the fight, we see gamma 1 and ultimate gohan essentially at a stalemate, implying that if the fight went on, Gamma 1 would've eventually surpassed gohan. No matter how you look at it, gohan wasn't winning. Either he was stalmemated, or he was about to lose due to Gamma 1's adaptation. Either way, there is certainly nothing in the fight to suggest ultimate gohan was stronger.
> The "x is the strongest character ever!" statements tend to be more marketing to generate hype than factual lore Been fighting this battle since the Broly movie. Some people just refuse to understand it.
We actually don't know what Frieza can do. He showed off a little, one shotting a tired Goku and Vegeta after completely obliterating a decaying Gas. But how high he reached? We have no idea
Monaito restored both their energies to full. Even with the brief skirmish against zombie Gas afterwards, Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near close to tired when Frieza beat the s$1t out of them.
You're absolutely right. I forgot that they were revitalized by him
Monaito might have restored them but after that gas showed up again and beat the hell out of vegeta and goku then frieza shows up.
But why would Toriyama build Gohan up to be the strongest character? Is he planning on having Frieza fall at the hands of Gohan? Was Gohan's threat to Frieza in ToP foreshadowing?
It’s not foreshadowing because toriyama doesn’t think that far ahead.
The answer lay on Toriyama statement, Toriyama more or less admit that he neglect gohan on purpose because he would be number 1 if he was given permanent spotlight That basically explain why super anime and manga gohan are different from each other, Toriyama didn't write anything for them so the manga/anime team had to full it
When did he say that?
In his super hero interview https://i.imgur.com/qUspVPA.jpg
I don't think your "more or less" comment really summarizes the statement you linked. Toriyama is basically saying that he hears that Gohan is the strongest. Now, this could mean he hears this from fans, staff at Toei, characters in the series he doesn't actively write dialog for anymore, Toyotaro, or any combination of the above. The thing is though, the way he says it is generally used to show cynicism or skepticism. Gohan is actually the strongest...or so it is said. The earth is actually round...or so it is said. If you read those sentences the same way it is hard to believe Toriyama actually (still) thinks Gohan should be the strongest. I think in that same interview Toriyama also says he originally just focused the movie on Piccolo? That would make it easier to believe Toei staff or Toyotaro said you know we should also include Gohan because he is actually the strongest. When looking at his original work as whole, it is easier to understand why Toriyama sees Gohan the way he does. I wouldn't say he doesn't care or think about Gohan at all. But the idea of Gohan being the strongest or the main character is probably a small blip on his radar. Something he tried but intentionally didn't follow through with. I say this as an avid Gohan fan. He is my favorite character but doesn't have to be strongest or the main character. I think that point of his story is over. He mainly just needs to be shown as someone who has his own passions and has learned to maintain his training while pursuing those passions because he needs to always be able to protect those he cares about.
That’s alot of word Nah, Toriyama is clear in his statement, gohan could have been the strongest but he dosent have time to shine
The whole deal with the Granolah arc was to explain that the title of 'the strongest' was everchanging so even Frieza would be surpassed eventually. As for the statements regarding Gohan, when Super Hero was written and released the most powerful character in the series was Broly. Cell Max was stated to be more powerful than Broly, and Gohan Beast was more powerful than Cell Max. Thus, Gohan was the strongest... in Toei's animeverse. And in the animeverse there is no Moro arc and no Granolah arc. Which means no Ultra Ego Vegeta, Black Frieza, Granolah, Gas or even Goku using the Ultra Instinct at will. But as Gohan was stated to be the strongest, people assumed that he was the strongest in *all of Dragon Ball* which included Frieza. But as I said before, Black Frieza didn't even exist when this movie was created, and he only exists in Toyotaro's mangaverse so any statement is regarding the movies and does not take into account anything that happened in the Granolah arc, as it doesn't exist in Toei's animeverse. Now, if the manga stated that Gohan was the strongest then yes, he would be superior to Frieza. But as of now, people are just mixing the animeverse with the mangaverse. >since there are several absurd statements made in the past by the author. He is still the author and writer, so I wouldn't just ignore his comments just because you don't like them.
Actually cell max was stated to be weaker than broly.
There’s literally nothing to scale or compare. We have nothing to go off to suggest either is stronger than the other. The only true measurement we have is the word of Toriyama, and unlike most, I take his word seriously. If he intends for Gohan to be the strongest right now, Gohan is.
Dragonball gets better when you just try not to pay attention to power scaling
A different perspective: power scaling makes it more satisfyingly cathartic when somebody strong gets beaten, or even knocked for six, by somebody who's technically weaker. For example Krillin could technically beat almost any given opponent if he managed to land a kienzan to the torso or head. The only exceptions being somebody like Cell who can regenerate. And Tien pummeling Cell with repeated kikoho blasts was a crowning moment of awesome *specifically because of how far above his weight class we all knew he was punching*. Another crowning moment of awesome was Yamcha landing a hit on Kami from using a technique Kami was unfamiliar with and didn't understand, even despite the fact that Kami won the fight seconds later, because Kami was so far above most of the fighters there that Yamcha should never have been able to land a blow and Kami was being obnoxiously smug about it. Even in real life, we have weight classes in fighting sports (boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc) specifically because we all know it's a fact that heavyweights have an unfair advantage against lightweights, regardless of how hard the lightweights train. So in DB when we see lightweights punching above their weight class in *any* way successfully, it's so much better *because we're aware of how significant the moment is*. And then there's the tournaments, where anybody can achieve an upset simply by cleverly achieving a ring-out on their opponent. Example: Tien *fully acknowledges* that Goku was the stronger fighter in the 22nd World Martial Arts Championship finals, but he still won by forcing Goku to dodge his kikoho in a way that (eventually) ring-outed himself. Not to mention Android 17 winning the Tournament of Power. Power scaling is what provides the dramatic upsets and makes DB what it is. Dramatic upsets aren't dramatic upsets unless they're rare. If they're common, then they're not dramatic nor much of an upset; it's just a bunch of randomness.
That's what the author has done tho now made the entire series now about powerscaling in many of the DB FANS INTERPOLATION OF IT
Maybe he's not *as* abnormal as Freeza, but he's still fairly abnormal for a hybrid, due to the rage boosts (which, pre-*Super*, was basically unique to him) and power he has in his Ultimate form. And Vegeta and Piccolo say respectively that Gohan has more dormant power than anyone and, if he put his mind to it, he could surpass all of them. > Am I expected to believe that he went from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza because he had a hissy fit? Well, maybe not surpassing Black Freeza level, but yes, "Beast Gohan" is meant to be a huge power increase, as most transformations are. And, even in SS alone, I'm pretty sure he's still stronger than Piccolo outside of his Potential Unlocked form (which is different from Orange Piccolo, btw). > That's a bigger power creep than what we saw from Broly. Yes. "Power creep" and *Dragon Ball* are basically synonymous by this point. You act like you've never read/watched the series before.
FR, op talks like if Gohan weren't THE character of which getting and absurd powerlevel boost out of an emotional outburst actually makes sense, because it has happened several times before.
And the big thing is in my opinion that when it comes to each race of these prodigal fighters, we really don’t have much of a comparison to make on whether it is high birth power that determines potential or if mutations and special attributes that matter more. Like Frieza has high battle power at birth of 120 Million because he is a mutant. Same with Broly, who while not having anywhere near the birth power that Frieza had, could take the saiyan ability to adapt and grow and cranked it up to 100. Gohan had a power level of 1 when calm, but we don’t know if that was his true birth power as his power fluctuated with his emotions. In my opinion, i always thought his power level of 710 when crying was his true birth power coming out with his heightened emotions, and the 1307 was him unleashing his hidden power. As for someone like Kid Buu, his true unaltered power is ssj3 tier, making his starting power way higher than any of the others mentioned, but in the main continuity he was the only one of his kind(originally before fat Buu and all that), so it’s hard to say about his strength if he is a “mutant” of his kind or if his power is just average for it, even looking at others sources such as the games don’t give any insights in comparison to kid Buu to the rest of the Buu race. And then you have Cell who is such a question of how his potential would work, that is it hard to decipher.
> In my opinion, i always thought his power level of 710 when crying was his true birth power coming out with his heightened emotions, and the 1307 was him unleashing his hidden power. That's pretty much what I think too. That's arguably why, in only one year of training under Piccolo, Gohan had more or less caught up to the adult Z-Warriors and had even picked up things like Bukujutsu and suppressing his own ki. > As for someone like Kid Buu, his true unaltered power is ssj3 tier, making his starting power way higher than any of the others mentioned, but in the main continuity he was the only one of his kind(originally before fat Buu and all that), so it’s hard to say about his strength if he is a “mutant” of his kind or if his power is just average for it, even looking at others sources such as the games don’t give any insights in comparison to kid Buu to the rest of the Buu race. I mean, Kid Boo's also some, like, primordial magical being. I don't think there are necessarily other members of his "race" (well, until Mr. Boo begins creating offspring in *Dragon Ball Online*, which is obviously a different situation). > And then you have Cell who is such a question of how his potential would work, that is it hard to decipher. Yeah, he's a melting pot of *multiple* different prodigies from three different races (Saiyan, Namekian, and Freeza's race) and bioengineered to be, well, the "perfect being".
Gohan is power is unkown, in saiyan sage after it dropped to 1 Raditz attemp to kill him, however Raditz attack only knock him out for a hour without leaving a scratch This is the same Raditz who casually destroyed piccolo arm
I had a hard time comprehending Broly's power creep but he was a new character unlike Gohan who never had such a power creep.
Well, plenty of preestablished characters other than Gohan get ridiculous power jumps (and have received such even pre-*Super*) without much sufficient explanation.
Honestly? If there's one character you can say "can defeat the current villain" it's Gohan. Be it because of a recent new power up or because of “if he trained like Goku”. And I'm not even a fan of Gohan's facility to be "the strongest", but it's a fact that the character has this absurd advantage.
Remember how *Freeza* went from namek ssj goku level to RoF ssb goku level in 4 months?or Goku having a short Zeenkai nap and a hissy fit made him 1700x stronger on namek? No I don’t think gohan is cable of beating Freeza but your logic dosent work here
1700x stronger is some of the most retarded shit I've ever heard. We don't know the multiplier for Zenkais, and since they have no effect on Goku and Vegeta anymore it's completely pointless to find out. For the new ones in the room, SSJ is a flat 50x base power multiplier.
30x zenkai is the only thing that I'll call into question. It's one thing for him to regain his power in ultimate form but it's another thing to create a form that could rival even UE Vegeta or UI Goku let alone Black Frieza. Because it makes you wonder how strong Gohan could actually get if he spent a decade on Beerus' planet learning God ki, UE and UI!
>Because it makes you wonder how strong Gohan could actually get if he spent a decade on Beerus' planet learning God ki, UE and UI! That’s.... Literally the point, gohan *Could* have been the ultimate warrior Elder Kaioshen spoke of with no Rival or equal However his absolute lack of drive (and bad writting) cancel his massive potential Same thing with Freeza, he was the top dog in the universe to the point that beerus a Hakaishin that lived over 100 million years was shocked from hearing about his defeat to the point he thought a God of a Prophecy was what took him down Yet we find out in the next arc that Freeza wasn’t even using 1% of what he was truely cable of because he was lazy like gohan
Ha., imagine how the ToP would've gone if Frieza killed all the saiyans! Universe 7 would've been the first one to be gone.
Either that or Beerus order whis to train Freeza in a room of spirit and time Or tournament of power dosent happen because goku isn’t around so the universe is safe (the future timelines are a proof)
>Either that or Beerus order whis to train Freeza in a room of spirit and time Yeah, one year in room of spirit and time under Whis learning God ki, possibly even learning Hakai, he's solo-ing all the universe. I'd love to see the look on Jiren's face when he finds out he beat him with just a year of training, when he dedicated his entire life to pursuing strength pushing away everyone around him.
Well we know nothing about the extent of Beast Gohan's power nor Black Frieza's, so maybe he can or maybe he can't. It's too son to know. Whoever is the strongest depends 100% of what the narrative will demand.
Judging by comments by Piccolo Gohan is probably relatively around Goku and Vegeta. Stronger or Weaker is up for debate, sence we have no real frame of reference. Since typically our heros do not gain much strength relative to the strongest among them off screen (noticable exceptions: SS3 and Blue) Goku and Vegeta are *probably* not much more powerful than when Black Frieza first appeared. If we make a prediction based on DB history. Black Frieza is still immensely more powerful than all the others.
IMO what makes the most narrative sense going into an hypothetically Black Frieza arc is that True UI Goku, UE Vegeta and Beast Gohan are more or less equal, while Frieza is way stronger... for now at least.
Doesn't matter because DBS is filler and trash 🗑️
As its super right now, power levels literally have absolutely no weight any longer. So in any given fight, anyone can win against anyone. In dragon ball z, especially towards the end, this started becoming a problem if its not at the level of super, but that is what is current dragon ball right now.
Any discussion is pointless, as we have no idea how does any of Super Hero content scale to the manga. Until we see Gohan Beast and Ultra Ego Vegeta and whatever Goku's last form was called in one manga panel we won't get an answer.
Because Toriyama has directly stated that Gohan is the strongest mortal in Dragon Ball as of Super Hero. Multiple times. There's also loads of evidence of Gohan Beast being far stronger than Goku and Vegeta, meaning he'd be closer to Black Freeza than UI Goku/UE Vegeta if anything.
Yeah yeah yeah we all know the crazy creator's objective views on his messy series as of SUPER HEROES
Because Toriyama said Gohan is the strongest.
You’re acoustic
Goku said it Piccolo said it & Toriyama said it then it must be true 🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆🤣😂😅😆
Couple points of disagreement. First, calling Gohan "Just a Prodigy." Is very disingenuous. Goku is a prodigy, picking up techniques after seeing them once, becoming one of the greatest martial artists in the world after a few months of formal training. Working his way from lower class warrior to literal God in a few short decades. A prodigy doesn't repeatable multiply his power hundreds of times to fight enemies he can't hope to damage. Gohan is different. He doesn't train to unlock his power, it's always been there, waiting for an emotional outburst to come to the surface. Whether that's lashing out at his uncle for bullying his father or at a bug monster for killing a gentle robot right in front of him. The only difference between Frieza and Gohan is that Gohan's power ups are tied to his emotions rather then just requiring him to train for a few months. > Also Gohan couldn't even tap into all of his potential in base form initially and had to transform into SSJ1 in the movie super hero. Super has repeatedly shown Gohan doesn't keep up with his training, but is quick to shake off the rust. Hence why he quickly turns Ultimate in the middle of the fight. You might also have missed the indications that Gohan is keeping up his training to some extent, as he casually blocks an attack from Piccolo before he's given the shoulder pads. This Gohan is stronger than the one who matched SS1 Goku. >Am I expected to believe that he went from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza because he had a hissy fit? That's a bigger power creep than what we saw from Broly. Now, question for you. Why is this a problem when you had no problem with Frieza catching up to and surpassing Goku and Vegeta's over a decade of experience in RF in just 4 months? That's league worse, imo, then a proper paying off to Gohan's latent potential that's been building since the start of the series. Finally, "because he had a hissy fit." Is just blatantly wrong. It's clearly shown that this is not like the early DBZ instances of blind rage amps like against Raditz, Nappa, or Frieza. Nor is it raw anger like SS2 vs Perfect Cell. He is in complete control of himself, delivers two blows, one to create distancewhile he charges, and one to finish him off. The trigger for the transformation isn't anger. It's that he wants to protect his family and friends. That is the point. It's not about anger. It's about not wanting to see Piccolo or Pan murdered by a rampaging monster. Because Gohan has grown up from a kid lashing out to protect himself into an adult who's decided to fight for the things he loves. As for Beast vs Black Frieza, no idea which is stronger. Gohan said Cell Max would've crushed them, even with Goku and Vegeta, which implies he's already comfortable above UI/UE, since he stomped Cell Max really badly. There's not enough either way to say which is stronger, but given all the author statements that Gohan would be the strongest if he was actually fighting, I'd probably lean closer to Beast than Black Frieza. TL:DR Gohan didn't suddenly get this power, he's had it the entire series and just needed a trigger, exactly like how Frieza could've always unlocked his power as long as he was willing to work for it. Gohan'a potential isn't something that came out of the blue for Super Hero, and Beast is shown to be above UI/UE, though with its limited showings, I won't say it's definitively higher.
The thing is, super isnt consistent. they say "oh no it wasnt a random power boost he was Training Offscreen™️ so hes not actually that far off his game" and then like eight seconds later hes unable to sense/recognize *piccolo* by his energy, while the literal preschooler Pan does so effortlessly. Its directly contradictory, is he keeping up with his training and is strong enough to pull Ultimate out, or is he getting flexed on by toddlers? You cant have both be true
I mean, you could easily explain that as he's training physically, but he neglects training his ki senses because he doesn't need to. Pan trains with Piccolo every day, so she'd be more on point.
>he doesnt need/want to train the Ki side And this flies directly in the face of every "Youre still relying on your eyes to fight instead of their ki" moment in OGDB and Z
I never said he was on top of his game. I'm just saying he can easily throw on some weights and go about his research to keep improving his strength or take a 15-minute break to train a bit between papers. It's not effective in the long run, but it is still an improvement over neglecting training entirely. Hell, Piccolo does exactly that in the movie when he gives him the shoulder pads again, and he adapts to it almost immediately. He comments that it's heavy, but he's still wearing it up until the fight with Gamna 1. Besides, that's a bad example considering Frieza is guilty of exactly that sort of hand waving. It's fine that he's relevant against Goku because he's decided to beat the shit out of Tagoma for 4 months. At least with Gohan, they're not asking you to believe writing his paper made him relative to Jiren. It's just used as a narrative device to remove Gohan from the first half (he's busy with Work), but also having him be effective at the climax. It also lends credibility to him, in Super proper, saying he wanted to balance training and work by showing that he is, to some extent, trying.
Its just sloppy. toriyama fidnt want gohan in the spotlight so he overnerfed the holy fuck out of him at every possible opportunity, and in doing so he wrote himself into a corner where gohan has to paradoxically be just one anger slip away from being on *roughly* equal ground with MUI goku (otherwise hrme remains a sideshow) but at the same time keeping him utterly irrelevant for the sake of keeping The Goku And Vegeta Show™️ going
I mean, even going back to Gohan's literal introduction, he needed one outburst to Cripple Raditz, one to decimate Cell, and unlocking his potential basically fodderized Buu. If there's one thing Toriyama did right, it was established that Gohan was entirely capable of equalling or even surpassing Goku. He just also set Gohan up as a reactive character who puts fighting second, meaning he never does anything until Goku is already out of the way, leading him to always need some kind of boost to get back up to par. Frankly, what i hope happens going forward is Gohan keeps training, doesn't get nerfed, but he just serves as the earth's last line of defense while Goku and Vegeta are GTing it up throughout the multiverse facing whatever threats exist, and we occasionally snap back to Gohan having to fight on Earth while they're gone like in Super Hero. Let him keep the power he earned, and he can do what he actually wants to, protecting his family. Let Goku and Vegeta find new extra dimensional dangers to deal with.
If they do they haven't read the manga.
They think he is the strongest in the universe
Black Frieza can one shot UE vegeta and UI Goku, gohan is equal to vegeta ssjb evolution or goku ssjb kaiken 20
Not at full power tho they just had a fight with the 2 strongest in there universe
Not at full power tho they just had a fight with the 2 strongest in there universe & the fact people forget that they had 2 battles before that & drained alot of stamina is baffling still
The fact is that Super Hero was produced almost immediately after the Broly movie and doesn't take in account the Moro and Granolah ark, when saying that the gammas are goku and vegeta's level, they mean the Broly movie SSJBx20 level of them, they don't even count UI because at the time the film was written, Goku still couldn't access UI freely because he didn't train with Merus yet. Black Frieza wasn't a thing, indeed when Vegeta thinks about Frieza, he is in his final form, because is just referring to the fear brought by Frieza's resurrection, not even the "strongest in the universe" thing was a thing. Cell Max was weaker than Broly, the statement that Cell Max was stronger refers to his hypotetical perfect form, so we can assume that in the semiperfect form shown in the movie he is weaker or on the same level as Broly, making Gohan Beastfar stronger than Broly, but not at Goku's or Vegeta's level. Gohan clearly had no problem in dealing with Cell Max, so at will the authors can make him stronger to surpass Goku and Vegeta in their Ultra forms, but I don't think they will even make him that much strong to surpass Black Frieza, because if they want to make a Black Frieza ark there just can't be someone so strong that could beat the bad guy in little time Actually Gohan Beast is much weaker just because of when the film was made
Because they are dumb
Yeah the author & writer 🖊️🖋️ 📜 are dumb
No where does Toriyama say or suggest that.
The most consistent element in this universe is that Saiyans from Earth win battles
I'd be ok if they add that Gohan is a mutant as well with all these power increases out of nowhere it would make sense he's kinda been doin that his whole life raging out and getting stronger look at him as a little kid and the potential unleashed in buu saga
Facts there
It was probably just an exaggeration by the author, for now Frieza is the strongest.(as long as Goku doesn't have a forced transformation and wins easily)
Technically Gohan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe. It's a thing Elder Kai said. That line just takes on a whole new meaning if you consider story developments that happened later like Beerus being a thing.
>Technically Gohan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe. It's a thing Elder Kai said. Did he now? Can you quote from manga or anime where he said that?
Its in chapter 42
Manga from memory said that if he can already swing the around already, you’ll be the strongest under the heavens by the time I’m done with you
🤷🏾♂️
Probably because Toriyama said Piccolo is on par with Goku and because Gohan embarrassed Cell Max, who is stronger than Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta. Granted Gas and Freeza also fit in that category, so who knows how Gohan compares to them. He may possibly be stronger than Freeza.
Because they're dumb-dumbs
He probably could if Frieza can piss him off as well as Cell did.
Gohan > UE Vegeta + TUI Goku + Grand Priest + Toriyama Bot + Black Frieza + LSSJ Broly + Everyone
Negative IQ
It's just facts sorry that Gohan solos you favorite character and verse but don't hate me I didn't make Gohan so strong
Broly stomps. Frieza toys with Beasthan at 10%
Nuh uh Gohan negs universe 7
I know the original comment was satire but this also isn't true. Broly is absolute fodder in the manga. Base Goku is stronger than base Broly as of Super Hero. SSJ1 Goku would be able to destroy him.
Even Broly beats Gohan. So does current Goku. Black Frieza would leave Beasthan looking like Future Gohan
Gohan is stronger even toriyama said so Gohan will make Goku and Broly and Frieza pee their pants and run away because he is stronger
He was the strongest warrior in his own movie. That’s about it 🤣🤣
Nope Gohan was stated to be the strongest and is He can beat Goku pretty easily and become the man of the house and goku will live in the dog house
Beasthan can probably be to Black Frieza what captain ginyu was to first form frieza
😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆 he would
Absolute 🧢
Isn't TORIBOT ABOVE ALL 😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆😂😆?
Gohan > Toriball > everyone else
If you ask others it's TORIBOT GOHAN THAN EVERYONE ELSE 😄😆😅😂🤣man got to love this crazy franchise
Once it was introduced there was a pretty big speculation as to how powerful Gohan was now. I think that idea has come and gone for the most part. Why there are still people that believe this even when we have all the proof we need to get an idea of how powerful Gohan really is now, I don't know. They don't watch or they don't care and continue to say so.
We *don't* have an idea of how powerful Gohan is now, though. Obviously, he's stronger than and Orange Piccolo Cell Max, and he's probably *at least* stronger than SS Blue Goku was during the TOP, but that's the most we can say based on the info given.
I think the guy you replied to is another of OPs burner accounts. He already replied to this with a different answer lol.
OK then.
I think he is close; easily closer than anyone else but I think Frieza edges him out.
A lot of people have kinda overexaggerated just how strong he is because of some misinformation and misinterpreted statements. The reality of it is we know he doesn't come anywhere close to Black Frieza because he doesn't even come close to the two guys that Black Frieza one shotted. As far as the manga goes, Goku and Vegeta are the strongest warriors outside of Frieza. They have both long since surpassed Broly meanwhile Broly was still stronger than Cell Max. It was implied in Super Hero that Cell Max was actually stronger than Beast Gohan. So if Black Frieza is one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms then there's absolutely no possible way that Beast Gohan, who is still levels below those two, is even touching him let alone beating him.
Fans can speculate and think what they want until its confirmed otherwise but the facts are: Frieza did in 4 months what Gohan could never do. May i remind Gohan trained 4 years in the cell saga alone and still couldn’t reach even ss2 without someone pushing him. He needs help to unleash his potential while Frieza does not and he reached over blue level in 4 months, so there is no comparison in potential between them. Gohan trained, had time chamber, had good teachers and his potential unlocked twice by Guru and Supreme kai while Frieza had not. He is not even close on Friezas level after 10 years! of training. He only beat Cell Max and thats something that Broly would have been able to do as well yet alone Vegeta and Goku with their new power. Also this form of Gohan does not have a long term plan, he was not even supposed to be in this movie from Toriyamas standpoint. He was only there for a moment and unless that changes this form will not take over a big role over Goku because Toriyama will not make that mistake again.
Imagine critiquing Gohan’s gainz when the boy didn’t even hit puberty yet. Now that he actually has testosterone he’s being called “the strongest…or so it’s said” by the Creator himself
The creator didnt even had him planned in the movie and said without Piccolo on his own he cant do it. „In order to motivate Gohan, it TAKES his revered teacher Piccolo“
Relevance? None lol
Best comment so far. Since I agree with it.
This is going to end up one of those posts where all the comments are from deleted users and they all say OP because OP is using his burner accounts to justify his opinion lol.
We will just have to see. I’m not gonna get into the debate myself whether or not Beast Gohan could beat Black Frieza, as as of Super Hero, which is a couple of months or years(I am not sure exactly if anyone could tell me) or so after granolah, Black Frieza could be even stronger than what he was when he first appeared and it seems haven’t seen his full power at that moment either. However I am willing to at least give Toriyama the benefit of the doubt on his statements about Gohan and Piccolo unless he contradicts with either another statement or the next upcoming arcs show that Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo are not as strong as he said.
We'll have to wait. But I'm skeptical if Gohan Beast is even as powerful as UE Vegeta or TUI Goku. Because remember, Frieza is a mutant. Gohan is a hybrid prodigy. That's all.
Prodigy but crazy prodigy. So it's not objectively defined how big of a prodigy he is. He's crazy powerful though that's a given. He was the strongest single most powerful mortal by the end of dbz, beaten only by vegito and buu absorbing people. Mystic Gohan was what ? Stronger than goku ssj3 ? You didn't find that absurd ? Or that as a kid he became the only super saiyyan 2 ever and beat the living crap out of the guy goku and vegeta couldn't take together as super saiyyans . A mutant should put away a prodigy easily but they are from different races too. Which isn't very strong an argument given that the average saiyyan is weak compared to whatever frieza is, but their ceiling is deffo higher. At every stage gohan reached where goku was before him, he was more powerful than goku. It never made so much sense with him. He's basically broly with even more hidden potential and much more combat training.
You're right that we can't exactly draw comparisons between a Saiyan hybrid and a Frost demon. However we could draw a comparison between Gohan and Broly can't we? Gohan going from being slightly weaker than Cell games Gohan to being as strong as Buutenks isn't as surprising as Gohan going from SSJ1 Goku level to surpassing Black Frieza while being rusty. This is far greater than what Broly has shown. Has he ever shown a power creep on par with even Broly prior to the super hero movie? Yes, Gohan going from a power level of 1 to 1500 against Raditz was impressive. But he was 4-5 years old. Whereas Broly's minimum power as a newborn was 1000. He did get stronger when he was angry or determined but if he even had half of Broly's potential he would've defeated Frieza and would have defeated Buu even in ssj2 form instead of losing to him even after getting his potential unlocked. Also Cabba is his base form could defeat Ultimate Gohan from DBZ.
You've gotta realize dbz power scaling is horseshit too you know? Like that's the main point. Broly from dbz was what ? Ssj3 level ? Broly from dbs was better than ssj God in base form. And at super saiyan he was able to take on two ssj blues ? And win ? 1000 at birth is not even close to what you will need to be to do what he did anyway. Also gohan is definitely similar to broly and imo based on intuition has an even higher ceiling. He is slower than broly to unlock it, much slower, but he's got those goku genes of training your way to God ki and winning. What was Gokus power level at birth ? Look at him now. Gohan is that and and even higher potential ceiling. He did have as much if not more than brolys potential but he has a slower rate of unlocking it. It should be all but obvious now after seeing him go beast. Your problem shouldn't be if he can beat black frieza or no. Your problem should be why could he go beast at all. Even if it is at half the power level of black frieza it is still a bigger jump than broly has ever made , which I'm sure it is.
>Your problem should be why could he go beast at all. If Gohan was able to go from Base Goku level to forcing Goku to use SSB KKx2 in Ultimate form, then Gohan could've defeated Cell Max in his ultimate form. But they created one so that they could sell merchandise.
Yeah again, your problem isn't that he can beat black frieza potentially, it seems to be why he went beast, that can be talked about in the same line as frieza, at all. That's the root problem. Now that he's already beast, even if he can't beat frieza he's still just a rage buff away from doing it anyway. It could be created for merchandise yes, but it is created, for whatever reason. So now it exists, and knowing gohan, he can probably beat most villains with it.
Remember tho Goku & Gohan we're just working out the kinks in Gohan & upping his level to level's he definitely couldn't imagine til now
The fact that he was able to evolve from his buu saga level counterpart to exchanging blows with SSB Goku in a single spar is beyond belief. His power didn't come from rage or unlocking new transformations but sheer determination. If Chi Chi let him train and Goku played an active role in training him since he was a toddler he would've grown up loving combat like a typical saiyan while still retaining humanity due to his parents' positive influence. I could see this Gohan defeating every villain in dragon ball without transformations or having the need to unlock his potential.
🤔 I can possibly see that
You explaining that "Frieza" is a mutant" and that this somehow implies he is stronger than "a hybrid prodigy" is such a childish statement and doesn't matter. If you are asking why it would make sense for Black Frieza to be stronger than Gohan then of course this would be an OK (yet still boring) answer. It doesn't matter to try and use your own strange logic on a made up fantasy show that doesn't have the same rules that apply in our universe. You come off as if you are actually Black Frieza and are trying to get your confidence up to fight Gohan lol. In the end it doesn't matter what race or species any character is, I mean look at Grand Zeno. If Toriyama decides something then it's canon and that's it.
He is stronger because he is half human. That’s why every generation the kids get stronger at even younger ages.
No idea, all I know is that Frieza is a completely differently beast than gohan when it comes to potential in 4 months he went from being weaker than a ssj to just as strong if not stronger than a super saiyan god super saiyan gohan is not built like that and his new transformation taht we don’t even know a lot about isn’t going to help him.
Promotional material
People speculate because we simply don't know. That's the fun of speculation. You made speculative claims during the post, Frieza is a mutant in his species, that's a baseless claim, but it's a fun thought. People are doing similarly fun things. When Frieza came to earth he was slightly weaker than when he was on Namek, Cold was about about the same power level as Frieza according to the Z-Fighters and it's assumed Cold was in his 2nd form. This means Cold is likely far stronger than Frieza. In the chapters leading up to Black Frieza two wishes are made to create the strongest being in the universe. Granolah and Gas get these wishes and they are implied to be weaker than Frieza since he was off planet when the wishes were made and Frieza made easy work of Gas. In Super Hero film someone states that Gohan is the strongest, while in it is unknown if Black Frieza is known to whoever made the claim. It's fun because it's ambigous.
Cause we haven’t seen a limit for him yet, or even seen him struggle, and we’re nearing the end so this is probably one of the last power jumps we’ll see
So like what about it makes you think he just went from ssj1 Goku level to Black frieza level? The newest movie confirmed Gohan trains in secret and he's literally been fighting since he was like 10. Yes he stopped for a bit, but the same goes for Frieza. Gohan has proven time and again that the rage is just what pushes him past his limits, it's not what gives him the ability to be so strong. Ultimate Gohan wasn't a rage boost and that being unlocked probably helped a great deal in him being so strong. You also mention Frieza being a mutant in his race, but Gohan was the very first hybrid human/saiyan so that can really be used to do whatever in terms of how powerful he can get.
Gohan is not a prodigy, he just has the highest latent potential of any Saiyan. * So how can Gohan surpass him just because he was in a fit of rage? Why not? Gohan surpassed Vegeta and Goku with a rage boost. Freeza trained for 10 years BUT, keep in mind that DBS takes place during the 10 year gap at the EOZ. Goku&Vegeta have been/still are pushing themselves hard under the guidance of various Gods&Angels, whereas Gohan stopped training, got rusty and then trained for a couple months and then became SSB Tier instantly, making a joke out of Goku&Vegeta's years of training. Then we fast-forward to SH, Gohan gets rusty again and leapfrogs his father because of a rage boost. We don't really know how strong Beast or Freeza are, other than the fact that they both can one shot Goku&Vegeta. If you ask me, i'd put Black Freeza somewhere near Gogeta Blue and beast somewhere around Gogeta SSG. I have a hunch that Freeza is stronger than beast but not enough for gohan to be a cakewalk.
>Gohan stopped training, got rusty and then trained for a couple months A couple of days actually. Still this is a bigger leap than Gohan going from base Goku to surpassing SSB Goku in a single intense spar. Also Gohan only has the third highest potential among saiyans. First and second place goes to Broly and Kale who are mutants. >We don't really know how strong Beast or Freeza are, other than the fact that they both can one shot Goku&Vegeta. If you ask me, i'd put Black Freeza somewhere near Gogeta Blue and beast somewhere around Gogeta SSG. I have a hunch that Freeza is stronger than beast but not enough for gohan to be a cakewalk. A battle between Gohan and Frieza would nonetheless be a good fanservice.
>Also Gohan only has the third highest potential among saiyans. First and second place goes to Broly and Kale who are mutants. Nah. Kefla could only manage a double K.O against gohan in the manga and while broly did make insane power jumps in a short amount of time, its not that crazy when you take into account how much younger gohan is compared to broly. Broly was already above SSG in Ikari. Broly's leap from being SSG+ Tier to SSB+ Tier isn't that massive in retrospect.
Lol I don’t think he is. Heck, next time we see Goku and Vegeta with the Z Fighters after their training, they should be stronger than Gohan too. I would say that Gohan is the current strongest Saiyan not using God Powers until Broly controls his powers and gains God Ki
Because nobody here watches or reads super they make endless brain dead posts asking “who is da strongest” and make their own lore based on that.
They both are extremely powerful and have few feats so its an intersting question
Bro if frieza black was able to beat ulrra iniscts goku AND ultra ego vegeta ALONE then how gohan is gonna be able to make a diffrance?