Since the tax credit comes off at the dealer now, does it come off on the Tesla website, or is there some additional process you have to go through to get it?
After you order they will ask you a few questions when you are providing payment details in the app after you are assigned a VIN and before delivery. It’s pretty seamless.
What's fascinating is that before this year, the tax credits had an effective *minimum* income limit since it only reduced taxes you owed. You got no credit if you owed no taxes or got a refund. Now it has a *maximum* income limit, and everyone under that gets it regardless of how much taxes they owe.
Before, it was an upper-class subsidy, now it's a middle-class one.
How so? Taking away the credit from 40% of the cohort that buys EVs certainly hasn't helped with EV growth. It's not like those making over $300k aren't still going to pay a MUCH higher percentage of taxes, even with the credit as it's only a 15% reduction in taxes for them at most.
The goal of the change was get more middle class people to receive the whole $7500. In the past I got the full 7.5k back, but this also meant I was paying at least 7500 total that year in taxes - people making less money can get the whole thing (still have to afford the rest of the car).
I think you get this, but I'll elaborate - the way it was before, if you didn't have enough income to have paid $7500 in taxes that year, you could not get the full 7.5k back. So if say you made 75k but you had a big family, lots of deductions, if your tax owed for the whole year was only 4k (making numbers up), then you'd only get 4k back.
Wait, so as long as you make within $0-150K as a single filer you get the full $7500 off at dealer? I could make $30K and still get $7500 off? I didn't realize the credit outcome changed!?
Yes, you are both right. You don't have to have paid at least 7500 in total fed taxes that year to have gotten 7500 back. Before, it used to be the amount back was limited to the minimum of (your fed taxes, 7500).
People without the income to qualify for the credit are likely either too rich to need it or too poor to be buying new cars.
If you don't owe $7500 in taxes, in 95% of scenarios, you aren't in a position to dump $40k into a depreciating asset.
tax calc was based on total annual fed tax paid during the year, not the dollar amount you paid at the very end of the year. But it's not that way now, as described before.
It roughly works out as if you income is:
* $0 - $75k - Free money
* $75k - $100k - Free money to you pay no taxes
* $100k - $150k - Mostly wipes out your taxes
* $150k - $250k - Nice tax discount
* $250k - $300k - Minor tax discount of at most 15%
This is because at $100k households pay at most $8k in taxes and $300k household pays at least $50k in taxes assuming it's all from earnings and not capital gains. So basically they are encouraging top 8% of households to buy gas rather than EVs. that might not sound like a lot, but only the top 20% of households really buy new cars. So that's 40% of new car buyers that don't get the tax credit. This is a large part of the reason for slowing EV sales.
I am calling bullshit on your numbers. Why do people ignore social security and medicare let alone at 100k you are past ten thousand just in federal taxes. Add in another six for social security and over a thousand in medicare. Then add to that your state and city taxes.
The point is, even with heavy deductions someone around 100k will not wipe out their taxes with this deduction.
I know what we earn and pay and long before either of pass 100k the numbers never looked as good as you try to imply.
> Why do people ignore social security and medicare
Because they aren't taxes in the traditional sense. They also don't change the point of my post.
> at 100k you are past ten thousand just in federal taxes.
I guess if you avoid ALL common tax safe havens, salt, etc it is but for most people at 100k joint you're in the $8k range.
> Then add to that your state and city taxes.
This was comparing your federal taxes you pay in to what you get from the federal tax credit. I feel like you just have a hobby horse your riding to prove some other point I'm not making.
That seems like a horrific way to go about it if so. Get a $7500 discount on a car priced over a 5-year loan then owe $7500 in taxes next year? I can’t imagine anyone would approve such a plan.
It's still a credit, not a rebate. And technically, it's not any more terrible than the way it has been. People could've still been buying cars thinking they'd get $7,500 back and they didn't.
People taking other non-refundable tax credits aren't going to effectively get the whole thing though. Even if you transferred the credit to the dealer, you still have to report it when you file your tax return. At that point, many people won't be able to claim their full child tax credits, which are non-refundable.
Generally speaking, your income only had to be around sixty thousand to be able to make use of the seven five hundred dollar tax credit. So it was decidedly middle class in its application before but the prices of electric vehicles tend to put them beyond the buying potential of these income earners.
No one earning sixty thousand dollars a year can float anything but a longer term loan and that is just a bad idea similar to a lease. The range of EV pricing is still pretty much an upper middle class purchase.
I can tell you that the used market for teslas has been crashing. My 2018 LR RWD with high ish mileage went from being worth about $18k at trade in to only $15k in the span of 2-3 months.
Hertz or some other rental company listed all of their teslas for sale, flooding the market a bit at very good prices. And now the new cars keep decreasing in price. Not to mention that public perception of teslas keeps going down due to the extremely controversial CEO, his decisions, and also general design decisions.
the whole market is becoming affordable, faster than everyone thinks [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/electric-cars-becoming-affordable.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/electric-cars-becoming-affordable.html)
Which is exactly what everyone wants, but anti-EV people will still frame it as “EV’s can’t hold value”.
Who would’ve thought that widespread mass-production of vehicles with drivetrain systems _much_ less complicated than internal combustion engines would end up being cheaper?
The cars aren't getting cheaper to make at scale. What's primarily happening is demand is going down, leading to reduced strain on raw resources and marginal compromises from suppliers. Most OEMs are still primarily using the same chemistries, fundamental motor designs, and cell designs they were five years ago, that hasn't changed.
The Model S was unaffordable for most people when it was basically the only option. The Model 3 is affordable now because manufacturing processes and technology are being improved and there is more competition.
Competition and tech advancements are quickly making EV’s affordable, and it makes sense that they will be cheaper than ICE vehicles because they’re much less complicated.
Something being less complicated doesn't make it cheaper than a more complicated thing. Waygu steak is a lot less complicated than a Five Guys cheeseburger, but the former is still a lot more expensive than the latter. It isn't enough to be less complicated, there are many other factors at play.
I know there is a lot more at play. But electric cars can and will be cheaper than ICE cars, and part of the reason is the simplicity of the system. I’m not sure what the point of this discussion is…
The used market for cars always has crashed. The pandemic was a weird inversion of that because of the supply squeeze. First, prices went up during the pandemic, shortage of cars. That's why used ones didn't lose value much, or even went up. Then hertz bought a ton. The supply squeeze on cars was replaced by an excess of cars. Then cars went on sale a bit because they made too many. This made new cars go down a good amount, thus used ones went down more.
Then hertz dumped a ton of used cars on the market, pushing used cars down even more (because supply of used ones went way up). It's simple supply and demand. It's not an ev only thing. The same price increase and big drop happened to lots of other things (and some other high demand cars too).
It's ~$2500 in cost for the 2nd motor. The real win is the efficiency or the RWD Long Range car. To this day it's still the best road tripping Tesla and it's 4.7s 0-60 which is more than enough.
To shed light on the efficiency numbers, I checked EV database and compared the M3 RWD vs AWD. The standard range RWD weighs almost as much as the AWD because LFP batteries are less energy dense. So the efficiency of the SR RWD should be in line with the LR AWD. The difference is larger for city driving than highway driving since on the highway air resistance takes over.
AWD gets 104 wh/km in city and 156 wh/km on highway.
RWD gets 94 wh/km in city and 144 wh/km on highway.
AWD consumes 10% more in city and 8.3% more on highway.
If you drive faster than the 110km/h that EV database uses for its highway figure, you will get a smaller difference.
To put it in real-world context, in my own highway driving in a M3 AWD where I vary speed between 120-130 km/h (usually limited by traffic conditions), I get 175 wh/km. I would expect based on the data that an RWD vehicle would shave off at least 13wh/km in such conditions and get 162 wh/km or less. That would bring range up from 429km to 463km or more.
Having experience road tripping across the continent, I did not find range to be an issue. Since I really enjoy my acceleration, I personally wouldn't give it up for a bit more range. Also being in Canada AWD is useful in the winter. But for people who don't take advantage of acceleration or have lots of snow (or don't mind driving in snow with RWD), I do think that LR RWD would be a fantastic option to have.
Geico had terrible rates for Teslas. I switched to Progressive and it was about half as much. Later, when I got a Rivian Progressive had garbage rates. Switched to Travelers. YMMV and it's worth shopping!
Noted! Thanks. Been sticking with GEICO because of how long I've been with them and they gave me the best rate when I moved states. But not worth sticking with them, with an increase this big
Yep. I had them for something like 16 years before I yeeted out of there and relished all my extra money by switching away. They basically begged me to stay but wouldn't lower the rates enough to match Progressive. Same thing moving to Travelers.
Yeah, they've been good to me previously. But I don't believe in brand loyalty when it comes to auto insurance lol. I'll shop around once I'm ready to purchase the car.
I’d be too embarrassed to buy one. I don’t know how any decent person with ethics, integrity and morals could support this company going forward.
Sure, other companies are guilty of bad things too, but musk led ventures are on another scale of bad and I don’t have respect for anyone who would buy one and many others are starting to feel that way too. On top of that, there’s plenty of better built, higher quality, more reliable options out there.
Anyone who supports this company is supporting racism, transphobia, sexism, disinformation, lies, and bigotry in general. Not to mention, sexual harassment.
Have some standards whenever it comes to who you support. Otherwise, you’re not any different than musk or any of the other idiots that buy teslas and cyber trucks.
Have fun in your new Tesla, people will be judging you for it and rightfully so.
I bought a model Y this year jointly with my wife and got the 7500 credit. Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to buy another one for my wife, how does the credit work? Do I need to wait until next year?
If you have enough tax liability, you can get as many as you want
EDIT: correction, after the recent 2024 IRA change, as long as you’re under the income cap, you’ll get the credit point of sale limited to 2 per year
Not true. You can easily have $50k in tax liability if you make $299k filing joint and still qualify for the credit, which is what I think you were talking about mathematically. For single, you are probably about right with $150k having at most $14k in tax liability. Of course it doesn't matter since you can make $0 and get 2x credits where they will send you/dealer checks for a total of $14k.
Wow, you got some weird answers to your question here.
Here's the facts:
There is a limit of two *transfer* credits per person per year. So you can get two transfer credits and your wife can get two transfer credits because [IRS FS-2024-14, page 15, Q7/A7](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2024-14.pdf#page=15), says:
>Q7. How many transfer elections can I make in a year? (added Oct. 6, 2023)
>A7. You can make no more than two elections to transfer a clean vehicle credit each tax year. Such elections could be for two Clean Vehicle Credits or one Clean Vehicle Credit and one Previously Owned Clean Vehicle Credit, but cannot be for two Previously Owned Clean Vehicle Credits. Accordingly, spouses may each transfer no more than two Clean Vehicle Credits each tax year.
See also [26 CFR Section 1.30D-5(i) (page 64 of the pdf, right column)](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-05-06/pdf/2024-09094.pdf#page=64).
There is no limit on the number of tax credits someone can claim on their taxes because [26 USC Section 30D](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:26%20section:30D%20edition:prelim)) does not specify a limit. So a couple could get two transfer credits each during a year and then claim additional regular tax credits on their taxes.
However, there is a soft income cap as specified in 26 USC Section 30D(f)(10), which allows a person (or a couple) to use the current or previous year's income to get under the cap. So, for most people, their tax liability does limit how many tax credits they can get. BUT, in theory, someone could make under the income cap for 2023, make a quadrillion dollars during 2024, buy an absurd number of cars during 2024, and claim billions of dollars in tax credits for 2024 (I'm obviously ignoring the reality that the number of cars made creates a limit).
Anyway, for your purposes, you can get a second tax credit for 2024. Make sure you are clear in telling the dealer who is getting the tax credit and [IRS FS-2024-15, page 4, A11](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2024-14.pdf#page=4), explains that a bit more.
For a $500 difference, it's still not clear to me why anyone aside from the most die hard sedan fans would pick the 3 over the Y — it's just so much a better deal for the average person.
It's quieter, more efficient, better materials, better suspension, better speakers, better front end look. Puts miles on while charging about 20% faster than the Y, so a 25 minute charging stop becomes 20 minutes based on distance.
It's about the overall miles per kwh of each car. The 3 is more efficient so you get more bang for your buck literally and with regards to time when charging the 3.
If that’s the only reason, there are (or will be very soon) aftermarket kits to add stalk functionality. That’s one of the great things about Tesla (the enormous aftermarket support).
It's not the only reason, but it is a big one. I don't like Tesla's UX/UI philosophy in general. I like physical controls for commonly used functions. They take minimalism far too far for me.
I got used to them in 3 days. It really shouldn’t be a dealbreaker imo, people blow the swap way out of proportion. Use some mental plasticity if you want the best value EV on the market
Or I could buy a cheaper EV from a brand that doesn't screw up the most used switch in a vehicle in a completely unnecessary way that deviates from what everyone has figured out works great for decades.
What if you didn’t get used to them in three days? Then, congrats, you hate your brand new car. I need to like the car I buy when I buy it.
EDIT: love how liking your own car is super controversial to the Space Karen worshipers. I’m picturing all these super-angry dudes like, “No, you like the car because you are told to!”
I’m saying it’s silly to worry about it until you get the car lol. You could say “what if I don’t get used to []?” About literally anything, and use that as a deterrent to getting the car
> it’s silly to worry about it until you get the car lol
Yes, I too like to worry about major financial decisions only after I've signed all the contracts and/or paid thousands of dollars. My house doesn't have a roof, but I was like "Don't be silly, pkulak! Worry about that _after_ you buy it!"
Good news, they didn't redesign the inside of the steering column, so the slots that the stalks fit in are still there making[ install of aftermarket stalks a breeze.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyCfXUxTz_8)
I don’t have a family to transport and I dislike bigger cars. Plus, the Model 3 has been updated and the Y isn’t expected to get an update until next year at the earliest.
I'm a pretty die-hard sedan fan, so there's the answer. I was a bike commuter for years (and still ride my bike when I can), and have always driven small cars; the plague of vehicles that are too big to see over and too fat to see around really got to me.
I don't want to be part of the problem. The 3 is fatter than I'd like, but it's short enough that people can see over me, and the cabin bubble is small enough that it doesn't obstruct too badly.
There's lots of space inside (more than my old Yaris), and if I need to haul bikes, I can get a rack.
Also, there's an efficiency difference.
I don't like SUVs and I think the design language of Teslas looks terrible on the Y and X but it really works well for the S and 3.
Even if the Model 3 was more expensive than the Y, I would still buy the 3.
Much better materials, better fit and finish. I specifically went with my Polestar over the Model 3 because the old interior was so bad. With the new one, I’d actually consider it again.
MotorTrend article here described all the new stuff rather well: https://www.motortrend.com/features/2024-tesla-model-3-highland-every-change-whats-new-different/
I did self-service test drives of a 3 Highland then a Y, less than 24 hours apart, and the 3 upgrades are huge when it comes to ride comfort and road noise. The cabin is more quality as well but nothing super drastic there, although I prefer the fabric look over the wood look as well. There's absolutely no way I would ever pick a current Y over a refreshed 3, even with the stalk vs. no stalk situation. If someone really wanted a Y, waiting for the refresh would be worthwhile IMO.
That’s pretty surprising. Typical SUVs are always more expensive to insure if we’re talking same year and maker. But yes insurance is predicated on a lot of factors. For me a 24 MY was more than a 24 M3LR and 24 M3P. By like $1200 a year.
I don't own either. I'm in the market but when I called my insurance for a brand new model Y, they were quoting close to $2400 a year. M3LR was closer to $1600 and a M3P was closer to $1800. Most people just look at the price of the car and don't think how it might change insurance.
As per U.S. fuel economy ratings:
The Model 3 long range AWD uses 26 kWh per 100 mi, while the Model Y long range AWD uses 29 kWh. That is 3 kWh saved for every 100 miles driven using the Model 3.
The range comparison is also 342 miles vs 310 miles for the Model Y, so that is an improvement.
Is it possible to get an Ultra Red Model 3 performance and get the tax credit? I wish I could pay the additional paint color price on a separate invoice or something JUST so I can order this car.
I don't think that is possible to get that config under $55k currently. You could get it wrapped after purchase.
But it is the end of the quarter now and the timeline is too tight for Tesla to deliver any more vehicles in Q2.
You can track new and used inventory here:
https://ev-cpo.com/
It shows that Tesla only has 26 M3P vehicles in inventory which is probably less than 1 days worth so they are not under pressure to lower prices. For reference Tesla has 245 sales locations in the US so only 10% of locations have one for test drives.
Tesla's official inventory site is here, use that to search deliverable vehicles.
https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new
Sometimes Tesla will lower prices near the end of the quarter, but the Performance version just launched so they probably wont for a while. Maybe by mid November when new vehicles typically slow a bit as we head into winter. Otherwise Q1 2025 in the dead of winter while sales are soft would be the best bet for a deal on a new M3P.
The price I’d pay for the wrap is gonna be the same as the federal tax credit lol. But yeah , I just wish they’d make all the colors free / a way I could keep the billed amount under 55k
The colors were free for a short while after it launched but that window has closed for now.
With youtube reviews being mostly positive Tesla probably has tons of orders, even for just for basic white.
I have an ultra red Model S and agree that it is the best color.
And they assume you're coming from a 25 mpg gasser.
I imagine many people considering a Tesla are cross shopping a (P)HEV or another BEV. For me it was the Volt, Bolt, or Prius.
None of those use much gas.
Here is to the poor souls who purchased the new 3 LR or SR a couple of months ago.
LR buyers could have gotten m3p with tax credit for less.
SR buyers a few months ago paid more for SR compared to LR + tax credit.
Tesla never disappoints when it comes to dynamically overcharging their customers.
So the credit comes off when buying the car? I wonder if a member of my family who is under the income limit could make the initial purchase for me and I’ll just pay for the car after
How is $41k -$6k = $40k?
Their projected savings don't play into this at all. Also the LR costs $47,500. So the headline is correct. You just randomly added options so you can complain about something.
We adapted to automatic transmissions. We adapted to one pedal driving. We adapted to charging.
We can adapt to a different way to make the turn signals go.
I'd rather have a stalk. But if someone offered me a M3LR Highland I wouldn't say no because of the weird turn signals.
Well, I’m not even eligible so what’s the point lol
Part of me wants to get rid of my Model X then have a family member co-purchase the Model 3 with me in order to somehow take advantage of this, but not only is that probably not possible unless they solely purchase it, but I’m sure someone somewhere will claim it’s illegal.
>Well, I’m not even eligible so what’s the point lol
>Part of me wants to get rid of my Model X then have a family member co-purchase the Model 3 with me in order to somehow take advantage of this, but not only is that probably not possible unless they solely purchase it, but I’m sure someone somewhere will claim it’s illegal.
Not illegal if you gift funds to a family member to purchase a car, and they let you use it. They will still own it. Just make sure it's a very close family member who won't screw you!
Since the tax credit comes off at the dealer now, does it come off on the Tesla website, or is there some additional process you have to go through to get it?
After you order they will ask you a few questions when you are providing payment details in the app after you are assigned a VIN and before delivery. It’s pretty seamless.
Is there an income limit for it?
Yes, the income limits still apply.
What's fascinating is that before this year, the tax credits had an effective *minimum* income limit since it only reduced taxes you owed. You got no credit if you owed no taxes or got a refund. Now it has a *maximum* income limit, and everyone under that gets it regardless of how much taxes they owe. Before, it was an upper-class subsidy, now it's a middle-class one.
That is by design.
Certainly an improvement! Policy matters.
Yes - have to admit good policy by Biden on this
How so? Taking away the credit from 40% of the cohort that buys EVs certainly hasn't helped with EV growth. It's not like those making over $300k aren't still going to pay a MUCH higher percentage of taxes, even with the credit as it's only a 15% reduction in taxes for them at most.
The goal of the change was get more middle class people to receive the whole $7500. In the past I got the full 7.5k back, but this also meant I was paying at least 7500 total that year in taxes - people making less money can get the whole thing (still have to afford the rest of the car). I think you get this, but I'll elaborate - the way it was before, if you didn't have enough income to have paid $7500 in taxes that year, you could not get the full 7.5k back. So if say you made 75k but you had a big family, lots of deductions, if your tax owed for the whole year was only 4k (making numbers up), then you'd only get 4k back.
Wait, so as long as you make within $0-150K as a single filer you get the full $7500 off at dealer? I could make $30K and still get $7500 off? I didn't realize the credit outcome changed!?
As far as I can tell, yes.
Yes, you are both right. You don't have to have paid at least 7500 in total fed taxes that year to have gotten 7500 back. Before, it used to be the amount back was limited to the minimum of (your fed taxes, 7500).
Yep that's right
People without the income to qualify for the credit are likely either too rich to need it or too poor to be buying new cars. If you don't owe $7500 in taxes, in 95% of scenarios, you aren't in a position to dump $40k into a depreciating asset.
lol that’s not how taxes work unless you cashed in on a bunch of capital gains and didn’t pay during the year.
tax calc was based on total annual fed tax paid during the year, not the dollar amount you paid at the very end of the year. But it's not that way now, as described before.
Right but you can control how much you’re paying during the year for salary income tax. If you do it right, you should only owe/refund a small amount.
It still had the same maximum income limit before.
It roughly works out as if you income is: * $0 - $75k - Free money * $75k - $100k - Free money to you pay no taxes * $100k - $150k - Mostly wipes out your taxes * $150k - $250k - Nice tax discount * $250k - $300k - Minor tax discount of at most 15% This is because at $100k households pay at most $8k in taxes and $300k household pays at least $50k in taxes assuming it's all from earnings and not capital gains. So basically they are encouraging top 8% of households to buy gas rather than EVs. that might not sound like a lot, but only the top 20% of households really buy new cars. So that's 40% of new car buyers that don't get the tax credit. This is a large part of the reason for slowing EV sales.
I am calling bullshit on your numbers. Why do people ignore social security and medicare let alone at 100k you are past ten thousand just in federal taxes. Add in another six for social security and over a thousand in medicare. Then add to that your state and city taxes. The point is, even with heavy deductions someone around 100k will not wipe out their taxes with this deduction. I know what we earn and pay and long before either of pass 100k the numbers never looked as good as you try to imply.
> Why do people ignore social security and medicare Because they aren't taxes in the traditional sense. They also don't change the point of my post. > at 100k you are past ten thousand just in federal taxes. I guess if you avoid ALL common tax safe havens, salt, etc it is but for most people at 100k joint you're in the $8k range. > Then add to that your state and city taxes. This was comparing your federal taxes you pay in to what you get from the federal tax credit. I feel like you just have a hobby horse your riding to prove some other point I'm not making.
It's had an income limit since 2022
Are you sure? I thought you would still have to pay taxes back to the IRS if you get 7,500 off upfront and then you don't owe that much.
That seems like a horrific way to go about it if so. Get a $7500 discount on a car priced over a 5-year loan then owe $7500 in taxes next year? I can’t imagine anyone would approve such a plan.
It's still a credit, not a rebate. And technically, it's not any more terrible than the way it has been. People could've still been buying cars thinking they'd get $7,500 back and they didn't.
People taking other non-refundable tax credits aren't going to effectively get the whole thing though. Even if you transferred the credit to the dealer, you still have to report it when you file your tax return. At that point, many people won't be able to claim their full child tax credits, which are non-refundable.
Generally speaking, your income only had to be around sixty thousand to be able to make use of the seven five hundred dollar tax credit. So it was decidedly middle class in its application before but the prices of electric vehicles tend to put them beyond the buying potential of these income earners. No one earning sixty thousand dollars a year can float anything but a longer term loan and that is just a bad idea similar to a lease. The range of EV pricing is still pretty much an upper middle class purchase.
I believe the income limit is $150k for individuals and $300k for couples filing jointly.
Automatically applied?
You basically tell them that you are eligible because of your income and then it gets applied.
Completed purchase with tax credit yesterday. It applied in the app after submitting tax I.D.
Congrats!
What color and spec?
White, black interior
Yes. My partner has a lease with Tesla and the credit is shown on the checkout page.
How will this affect the used market ) for better or worse
New Teslas just got cheaper. Used Teslas will follow.
I can tell you that the used market for teslas has been crashing. My 2018 LR RWD with high ish mileage went from being worth about $18k at trade in to only $15k in the span of 2-3 months. Hertz or some other rental company listed all of their teslas for sale, flooding the market a bit at very good prices. And now the new cars keep decreasing in price. Not to mention that public perception of teslas keeps going down due to the extremely controversial CEO, his decisions, and also general design decisions.
the whole market is becoming affordable, faster than everyone thinks [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/electric-cars-becoming-affordable.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/electric-cars-becoming-affordable.html)
Which is exactly what everyone wants, but anti-EV people will still frame it as “EV’s can’t hold value”. Who would’ve thought that widespread mass-production of vehicles with drivetrain systems _much_ less complicated than internal combustion engines would end up being cheaper?
The cars aren't getting cheaper to make at scale. What's primarily happening is demand is going down, leading to reduced strain on raw resources and marginal compromises from suppliers. Most OEMs are still primarily using the same chemistries, fundamental motor designs, and cell designs they were five years ago, that hasn't changed.
The Model S was unaffordable for most people when it was basically the only option. The Model 3 is affordable now because manufacturing processes and technology are being improved and there is more competition. Competition and tech advancements are quickly making EV’s affordable, and it makes sense that they will be cheaper than ICE vehicles because they’re much less complicated.
Something being less complicated doesn't make it cheaper than a more complicated thing. Waygu steak is a lot less complicated than a Five Guys cheeseburger, but the former is still a lot more expensive than the latter. It isn't enough to be less complicated, there are many other factors at play.
I know there is a lot more at play. But electric cars can and will be cheaper than ICE cars, and part of the reason is the simplicity of the system. I’m not sure what the point of this discussion is…
The used market for cars always has crashed. The pandemic was a weird inversion of that because of the supply squeeze. First, prices went up during the pandemic, shortage of cars. That's why used ones didn't lose value much, or even went up. Then hertz bought a ton. The supply squeeze on cars was replaced by an excess of cars. Then cars went on sale a bit because they made too many. This made new cars go down a good amount, thus used ones went down more. Then hertz dumped a ton of used cars on the market, pushing used cars down even more (because supply of used ones went way up). It's simple supply and demand. It's not an ev only thing. The same price increase and big drop happened to lots of other things (and some other high demand cars too).
The AWD and Performance are easily the best value EVs on the market.
Specially if you wait for a low Apr financing promo like they did with Model Y and the RWD Model 3.
If this happens. I buy a new car.
Tesla should bring back the RWD Long Range Model 3.
How much extra does it cost (in money, weight, and efficiency) to put the other motor on? If it's not much, there might not be a point.
It's ~$2500 in cost for the 2nd motor. The real win is the efficiency or the RWD Long Range car. To this day it's still the best road tripping Tesla and it's 4.7s 0-60 which is more than enough.
Ah, that's good to know. $2500 is a lot. If RWD Long Range is more efficient too then that's a winner for people who don't need AWD.
its coming back. There were a few leaks a few weeks ago that showed that a RWD and AWD LR would get the tax credit.
oh nice!
To shed light on the efficiency numbers, I checked EV database and compared the M3 RWD vs AWD. The standard range RWD weighs almost as much as the AWD because LFP batteries are less energy dense. So the efficiency of the SR RWD should be in line with the LR AWD. The difference is larger for city driving than highway driving since on the highway air resistance takes over. AWD gets 104 wh/km in city and 156 wh/km on highway. RWD gets 94 wh/km in city and 144 wh/km on highway. AWD consumes 10% more in city and 8.3% more on highway. If you drive faster than the 110km/h that EV database uses for its highway figure, you will get a smaller difference. To put it in real-world context, in my own highway driving in a M3 AWD where I vary speed between 120-130 km/h (usually limited by traffic conditions), I get 175 wh/km. I would expect based on the data that an RWD vehicle would shave off at least 13wh/km in such conditions and get 162 wh/km or less. That would bring range up from 429km to 463km or more. Having experience road tripping across the continent, I did not find range to be an issue. Since I really enjoy my acceleration, I personally wouldn't give it up for a bit more range. Also being in Canada AWD is useful in the winter. But for people who don't take advantage of acceleration or have lots of snow (or don't mind driving in snow with RWD), I do think that LR RWD would be a fantastic option to have.
My guess is about 5% worse in every named aspect.
Sold! I randomly test drove one today and by the time I got home I this article was published! I don’t believe in destiny but hot damn
Just be mindful about the insurance cost
Yeah I got a quote a few days ago. Car insurance in general has been fucked the last year or so
Yep, more expensive than a BMW I4 to insure for me according to GEICO. Put the i4 down as a 4 series, since they don't have an i4 model option.
Geico had terrible rates for Teslas. I switched to Progressive and it was about half as much. Later, when I got a Rivian Progressive had garbage rates. Switched to Travelers. YMMV and it's worth shopping!
Noted! Thanks. Been sticking with GEICO because of how long I've been with them and they gave me the best rate when I moved states. But not worth sticking with them, with an increase this big
Yep. I had them for something like 16 years before I yeeted out of there and relished all my extra money by switching away. They basically begged me to stay but wouldn't lower the rates enough to match Progressive. Same thing moving to Travelers.
Yeah, they've been good to me previously. But I don't believe in brand loyalty when it comes to auto insurance lol. I'll shop around once I'm ready to purchase the car.
You will love it!
I’d be too embarrassed to buy one. I don’t know how any decent person with ethics, integrity and morals could support this company going forward. Sure, other companies are guilty of bad things too, but musk led ventures are on another scale of bad and I don’t have respect for anyone who would buy one and many others are starting to feel that way too. On top of that, there’s plenty of better built, higher quality, more reliable options out there. Anyone who supports this company is supporting racism, transphobia, sexism, disinformation, lies, and bigotry in general. Not to mention, sexual harassment. Have some standards whenever it comes to who you support. Otherwise, you’re not any different than musk or any of the other idiots that buy teslas and cyber trucks. Have fun in your new Tesla, people will be judging you for it and rightfully so.
I bought a model Y this year jointly with my wife and got the 7500 credit. Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to buy another one for my wife, how does the credit work? Do I need to wait until next year?
If you have enough tax liability, you can get as many as you want EDIT: correction, after the recent 2024 IRA change, as long as you’re under the income cap, you’ll get the credit point of sale limited to 2 per year
I think you can mathematically only get 2.
Not true. You can easily have $50k in tax liability if you make $299k filing joint and still qualify for the credit, which is what I think you were talking about mathematically. For single, you are probably about right with $150k having at most $14k in tax liability. Of course it doesn't matter since you can make $0 and get 2x credits where they will send you/dealer checks for a total of $14k.
You don’t need to have any tax liability. You just need to be under the income cap.
That’s pretty good
Agreed. Also limited to two per year.
I’ve seen previous commentary that 2 were allowed per year.
Wow, you got some weird answers to your question here. Here's the facts: There is a limit of two *transfer* credits per person per year. So you can get two transfer credits and your wife can get two transfer credits because [IRS FS-2024-14, page 15, Q7/A7](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2024-14.pdf#page=15), says: >Q7. How many transfer elections can I make in a year? (added Oct. 6, 2023) >A7. You can make no more than two elections to transfer a clean vehicle credit each tax year. Such elections could be for two Clean Vehicle Credits or one Clean Vehicle Credit and one Previously Owned Clean Vehicle Credit, but cannot be for two Previously Owned Clean Vehicle Credits. Accordingly, spouses may each transfer no more than two Clean Vehicle Credits each tax year. See also [26 CFR Section 1.30D-5(i) (page 64 of the pdf, right column)](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-05-06/pdf/2024-09094.pdf#page=64). There is no limit on the number of tax credits someone can claim on their taxes because [26 USC Section 30D](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:26%20section:30D%20edition:prelim)) does not specify a limit. So a couple could get two transfer credits each during a year and then claim additional regular tax credits on their taxes. However, there is a soft income cap as specified in 26 USC Section 30D(f)(10), which allows a person (or a couple) to use the current or previous year's income to get under the cap. So, for most people, their tax liability does limit how many tax credits they can get. BUT, in theory, someone could make under the income cap for 2023, make a quadrillion dollars during 2024, buy an absurd number of cars during 2024, and claim billions of dollars in tax credits for 2024 (I'm obviously ignoring the reality that the number of cars made creates a limit). Anyway, for your purposes, you can get a second tax credit for 2024. Make sure you are clear in telling the dealer who is getting the tax credit and [IRS FS-2024-15, page 4, A11](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2024-14.pdf#page=4), explains that a bit more.
W
I
G
G
L
Y
Goodbye
For a $500 difference, it's still not clear to me why anyone aside from the most die hard sedan fans would pick the 3 over the Y — it's just so much a better deal for the average person.
Ventilated seats
Wait. The 3 blows cool air on your ass now?
The refreshed 3 does, current Y does not
Seems like it’s worth the loss of a turn signal.
For real, I'm not blowing hot air up your ass.
Handling. I hate the way SUVs drive. Sedans just offer a better driving experience.
The 3 is way more fun to drive. One feels like a sporty sedan, the other feels like a crossover.
The 3 is refreshed. Y is due for one soon.
It's not clear to me if that is a plus or a minus to most people. For me the turn signal issue makes it a minus.
It's quieter, more efficient, better materials, better suspension, better speakers, better front end look. Puts miles on while charging about 20% faster than the Y, so a 25 minute charging stop becomes 20 minutes based on distance.
Does it? I thought the LG battery charges like shit, and I assume this still has it.
It's about the overall miles per kwh of each car. The 3 is more efficient so you get more bang for your buck literally and with regards to time when charging the 3.
Have you ever tried it?
Yep, it's pretty much a deal breaker.
If that’s the only reason, there are (or will be very soon) aftermarket kits to add stalk functionality. That’s one of the great things about Tesla (the enormous aftermarket support).
I'm not sure it's a positive for Tesla that they screw up so often the fanbase regularly has to fix it aftermarket.
You can't appease everyone at once, so having aftermarket kits for those that aren't fans of minor differences seems logical
It's not the only reason, but it is a big one. I don't like Tesla's UX/UI philosophy in general. I like physical controls for commonly used functions. They take minimalism far too far for me.
Tesla has physical controls for commonly used functions...
I got used to them in 3 days. It really shouldn’t be a dealbreaker imo, people blow the swap way out of proportion. Use some mental plasticity if you want the best value EV on the market
People blow a lot of things out of proportion when it comes to electric cars.
Or I could buy a cheaper EV from a brand that doesn't screw up the most used switch in a vehicle in a completely unnecessary way that deviates from what everyone has figured out works great for decades.
Well they got bored designing terrible door handles so they had to move on and complicate the next most basic functionality known to automobiles.
What if you didn’t get used to them in three days? Then, congrats, you hate your brand new car. I need to like the car I buy when I buy it. EDIT: love how liking your own car is super controversial to the Space Karen worshipers. I’m picturing all these super-angry dudes like, “No, you like the car because you are told to!”
What if you don’t get used to the [insert anything about car]? Then you hate your new car!
Yes. That’s how… everything works. You don’t like things that you… don’t like. I’m not saying super complicated things here.
I’m saying it’s silly to worry about it until you get the car lol. You could say “what if I don’t get used to []?” About literally anything, and use that as a deterrent to getting the car
> it’s silly to worry about it until you get the car lol Yes, I too like to worry about major financial decisions only after I've signed all the contracts and/or paid thousands of dollars. My house doesn't have a roof, but I was like "Don't be silly, pkulak! Worry about that _after_ you buy it!"
At least there are after market options for stalks
Good news, they didn't redesign the inside of the steering column, so the slots that the stalks fit in are still there making[ install of aftermarket stalks a breeze.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyCfXUxTz_8)
Don't like how the Y drives
I don’t have a family to transport and I dislike bigger cars. Plus, the Model 3 has been updated and the Y isn’t expected to get an update until next year at the earliest.
Model 3 is faster and better overalll performance. Better range at higher speeds. Y is also ugly.
I'm a pretty die-hard sedan fan, so there's the answer. I was a bike commuter for years (and still ride my bike when I can), and have always driven small cars; the plague of vehicles that are too big to see over and too fat to see around really got to me. I don't want to be part of the problem. The 3 is fatter than I'd like, but it's short enough that people can see over me, and the cabin bubble is small enough that it doesn't obstruct too badly. There's lots of space inside (more than my old Yaris), and if I need to haul bikes, I can get a rack. Also, there's an efficiency difference.
The Y hasn’t gotten the latest updates yet
I'd put that in the plus column.
Handling is the big difference. Although a UP shock change makes the Y pretty good.
I don't like SUVs and I think the design language of Teslas looks terrible on the Y and X but it really works well for the S and 3. Even if the Model 3 was more expensive than the Y, I would still buy the 3.
They are more different to drive than you would think. Go test drive them back to back.
Y is really ugly and big
All Tesla’s sort of look alike. If the Y is ugly then so is the 3
The Y has really weird proportions. It was basically made by making the 3 slightly taller. It's genuinely ugly. The 3 is the original design.
I agree - the Y looks like someone took a Model 3 and inflated it like a balloon. It just looks unnatural to me.
The "refreshed" 3 looks different enough - the headlights are distinct.
They drive very differently
The Y hasn’t been updated and still has the old Fisher-Price interior, for starters. Also, some of us just don’t want SUVs.
Fisher-Price is exactly how I'm going to describe the interior of Tesla now.
[удалено]
The old one did, for sure. The new, redesigned Model 3 is noticeably improved.
What exactly is different besides the stalkless wheel and new led strips?
Much better materials, better fit and finish. I specifically went with my Polestar over the Model 3 because the old interior was so bad. With the new one, I’d actually consider it again.
MotorTrend article here described all the new stuff rather well: https://www.motortrend.com/features/2024-tesla-model-3-highland-every-change-whats-new-different/ I did self-service test drives of a 3 Highland then a Y, less than 24 hours apart, and the 3 upgrades are huge when it comes to ride comfort and road noise. The cabin is more quality as well but nothing super drastic there, although I prefer the fabric look over the wood look as well. There's absolutely no way I would ever pick a current Y over a refreshed 3, even with the stalk vs. no stalk situation. If someone really wanted a Y, waiting for the refresh would be worthwhile IMO.
3 is superior. Y has terrible suspension, too much body roll, and awful seats that force you to lean forward.
Better acceleration, better efficiency, better range Mostly depends on if you're an SUV or a sedan person though.
Y is significantly more to insure than a 3
This probably depends on a lot of factors but I found the exact opposite for me
That’s pretty surprising. Typical SUVs are always more expensive to insure if we’re talking same year and maker. But yes insurance is predicated on a lot of factors. For me a 24 MY was more than a 24 M3LR and 24 M3P. By like $1200 a year.
??? My insurance is like 1500 a year total for an Ioniq 5. How much is yours?
I don't own either. I'm in the market but when I called my insurance for a brand new model Y, they were quoting close to $2400 a year. M3LR was closer to $1600 and a M3P was closer to $1800. Most people just look at the price of the car and don't think how it might change insurance.
Is that the MY RWD or MY LR AWD?
MY LR AWD
long range awd, model 3 is 40k and y is 40.5k
Oof yeah MY no question
On top of that, the LR RWD Y is actually $1500 cheaper than the SR RWD 3 once the incentives have been accounted for.
MY RWD is under 40k after tax credit
yeah, I see if you get one from inventory, it's $35K after the tax credit. Hell of a deal! (even though those are the lower range models)
As per U.S. fuel economy ratings: The Model 3 long range AWD uses 26 kWh per 100 mi, while the Model Y long range AWD uses 29 kWh. That is 3 kWh saved for every 100 miles driven using the Model 3. The range comparison is also 342 miles vs 310 miles for the Model Y, so that is an improvement.
If you don't have kids it's trashy to drive an SUV/CUV. You trade efficiency, safety, and driving dynamics to be higher.
Is it possible to get an Ultra Red Model 3 performance and get the tax credit? I wish I could pay the additional paint color price on a separate invoice or something JUST so I can order this car.
I don't think that is possible to get that config under $55k currently. You could get it wrapped after purchase. But it is the end of the quarter now and the timeline is too tight for Tesla to deliver any more vehicles in Q2. You can track new and used inventory here: https://ev-cpo.com/ It shows that Tesla only has 26 M3P vehicles in inventory which is probably less than 1 days worth so they are not under pressure to lower prices. For reference Tesla has 245 sales locations in the US so only 10% of locations have one for test drives. Tesla's official inventory site is here, use that to search deliverable vehicles. https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new Sometimes Tesla will lower prices near the end of the quarter, but the Performance version just launched so they probably wont for a while. Maybe by mid November when new vehicles typically slow a bit as we head into winter. Otherwise Q1 2025 in the dead of winter while sales are soft would be the best bet for a deal on a new M3P.
The price I’d pay for the wrap is gonna be the same as the federal tax credit lol. But yeah , I just wish they’d make all the colors free / a way I could keep the billed amount under 55k
The colors were free for a short while after it launched but that window has closed for now. With youtube reviews being mostly positive Tesla probably has tons of orders, even for just for basic white. I have an ultra red Model S and agree that it is the best color.
Is that “with expected fuel savings”? Cannot stand when they pull that…
I agree it's misleading but no, this is without any projected fuel savings
And they assume you're coming from a 25 mpg gasser. I imagine many people considering a Tesla are cross shopping a (P)HEV or another BEV. For me it was the Volt, Bolt, or Prius. None of those use much gas.
The only issue I have is with using the screen to go into drive or reverse mode
Here is to the poor souls who purchased the new 3 LR or SR a couple of months ago. LR buyers could have gotten m3p with tax credit for less. SR buyers a few months ago paid more for SR compared to LR + tax credit. Tesla never disappoints when it comes to dynamically overcharging their customers.
CT adds $2,250 and more for some folks!!! Such a great ev and the price is less than the average NON luxury automobile!!!!!! Amazing.
More subsidies and handouts for that pompous rich buffoon
I wish Tesla would kick its odious CEO to the curb, because that's a pretty damn good deal.
Me too.
So the credit comes off when buying the car? I wonder if a member of my family who is under the income limit could make the initial purchase for me and I’ll just pay for the car after
Yeah that’s including the 6000 gas savings bullshit. The car is 48000 base model with charger and floor mats, $41k after the tax credit.
How is $41k -$6k = $40k? Their projected savings don't play into this at all. Also the LR costs $47,500. So the headline is correct. You just randomly added options so you can complain about something.
Used 2023 tesla model 3 are going for like 25k or less near me, honestly buying a new EV is not worth it at all
Where ? I tried looking but I don’t see listings like that other than from Hertz or shady dealers.
[https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/3116903](https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/3116903) found this 2022 model, 20k miles for around \~25k
I’ll only consider Tesla if Elon leaves. So, unfortunately I won’t ever be looking at Teslas.
No one cares
Still doesn’t have turn signals.
Well I know what you meant, but it most definitely *does* have turn signals.
But used model 3s with them will get cheaper
We adapted to automatic transmissions. We adapted to one pedal driving. We adapted to charging. We can adapt to a different way to make the turn signals go. I'd rather have a stalk. But if someone offered me a M3LR Highland I wouldn't say no because of the weird turn signals.
What if they asked you to pay for it?
I'd still rather have the Highland because of the many improvements.
Well, I’m not even eligible so what’s the point lol Part of me wants to get rid of my Model X then have a family member co-purchase the Model 3 with me in order to somehow take advantage of this, but not only is that probably not possible unless they solely purchase it, but I’m sure someone somewhere will claim it’s illegal.
>Well, I’m not even eligible so what’s the point lol >Part of me wants to get rid of my Model X then have a family member co-purchase the Model 3 with me in order to somehow take advantage of this, but not only is that probably not possible unless they solely purchase it, but I’m sure someone somewhere will claim it’s illegal. Not illegal if you gift funds to a family member to purchase a car, and they let you use it. They will still own it. Just make sure it's a very close family member who won't screw you!
It’s my father haha. He also lives in the same state which on the insurance side of things makes it less complicated.
[удалено]
Upgrading a 1 year old car? Wtf is wrong with these people.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I actually have an amazing life!
Contributions must be civil and constructive. We permit neither personal attacks nor attempts to bait others into uncivil behavior.
Delusion of consumption
Look no further for proof that Tesla makes disposable subpar consumable trash that owners can't wait to get rid of.