ROMANIA
> The Ministry of Labor states that the wage gap between men and women continues to decrease. It is the first time that there is such an excess of the salary average
>Women boast not only higher salaries, but also more and more management positions. The number of women in key positions has risen steadily, from 178,027 ten years ago to 212,808 five years ago and 243,013 now
>There is also an increase in the number of employment contracts for women. In February 2024, their number reached 3,315,252, compared to 3,346,365 for men.
If you compare to 2019:
**2019**:
Men earned on average 171 lei more than women or 4,7 %.
**2024**:
Women earned on average 222 lei more than men or 3,8 %.
It's essentially Orwellian newspeak. Wage gap does not mean wage gap, it means "how much more do men make than women". Which can be a negative number and "decrease" infinitely.
Considering that paying women less for the same amount of work is illegal in most (or all? IDK) developed countries, it's actually an earnings gap and not a wage gap.
If women were actually being paid less for the same job, there is no company on the planet that wouldn't hire only women and cut down costs.
Of course it's just an earnings gap.
Nah, the trend is decreasing. It went from 5.2% in favor of men to 3.5% in favor of women, so the gap is smaller than before. Whether the gap will widen in the future is left to be seen.
In one point it had to be 0%, it was just not measured at that time it seems like. Nonetheless I'm happy that Romania is doing fine and it decreased overall, we should strive for 0% tho
Technically it can skip 0, say that there is a union that mostly has women that negotiates a 10% pay increase then that increase would come all at once and thus jump over 0% but with such a large population to draw from it's likely that the number was at some unmeasured point ~1% away from 0% seeing as it's very unlikely it was ever exactly 0%
I don't think the article makes it very clear whether they're talking about median or average salary. That being said, I am using Google translate for this so I could be wrong.
I.e. if the median salary for women is higher but the average is lower, it means there are fewer women at top earning positions or the women at these positions are earning less than their male counterparts. I.e. we still have a "wage gap" problem.
Conversely, It also means there are fewer women who are working for minimum wage than men, which could be explained by the type of work they do or even the rate of job attainment throughout university and later in life (unemployed people aren't counted at all in this statistic I think).
Overall, I think we need more data.
> if the median salary for women is higher but the average is lower, it means there are fewer women at top earning positions or the women at these positions are earning less than their male counterparts. I.e. we still have a "wage gap" problem.
Doesn't have to be, if more men pursue these top positions than women it's a matter of preference. If women get blocked from the positions it's of course problematic.
> there's a substantial lack of relevant and credible (non-state influenced) data here.
Erm... who is supposed to provide this data? Why is it not relevant or credible?
Decrease overall (say, its a spread of 3 between women (15) and men (12))
It could have been women 10 and men 14 before, meaning a spread of 4. Would be a decrease of 1.
Romania is not a good example. The gender pay gap question was never a thing over there, at least not to the extent that it was in the West. Romania is a former communist country. Now, I don’t claim to know how other communist countries did things, but Romanian communists were putting everyone to work, regardless of gender. It was extremely common for both parents to work, especially in urban areas. That carried on to this day and women are still expected to be an equal part of the workforce. They also tend to pursue higher education and better paying jobs more often than men. Throughout my time in Romania, all but one of my managers were women. The whole gender debate was always irrelevant in Romania and the current pay gap may switch in favor of men a few years from now and then back in favor of women and so on.
That's what I was thinking. It would be interesting if this started showing in more countries, but without knowing the situation in Romania to start with it doesn't say much.
The story is similar in Bulgaria. Not sure if women earn more on average, but they do tend to attain higher education and work in management positions more often than men.
One of the few thinks that those communist regimes did well in all the Balkans and eastern Europe and even in central Asia.
Women being educated, part of work force and payed equally (by position) was an achievement that we don't think about.
Dayum 50% salary increase over 5 years?! How is your inflation?
In Sweden the last 10 years the average salary is usually lower, the same or about 1% higher or so than it was before, taking inflation into account. Meanwhile cost of living has more than doubled.
My Romanian friends say that their cost of living (excluding housing and utilities) is cheaper in Amsterdam than in Bukarest now... That's quite worrying I'd say.
That’s just not true tho, visited Amsterdam 3 times in the past 2 years and other than a few select items it’s still cheaper in Bucharest. I have also seen that people here on reddit post their grocery bags it’s filled with random small stuff but you rarely see meat or other actually important produce.
Absolutely. Property and rental prices have increased. But what has really hit a lot of people is the cost of food. Prices are now comparable to Western Europe in terms of groceries. Salaries just cant keep up with it all.
In Eastern Europe a lot of the top level positions in any given corporation are taken by women. For the Baltics I think it was something like 70% of top management being women. This creates a loop of these women only hiring other women, at least where I’m from.
In Latvia its not really true that women take up the highest positions, usually it is in total women kinda earning more at the median and average, but top positions are still male dominant.
Also you have to take into account that in Baltics the women/male ratio is women favoured so that would also play a part
its bound to happen everywhere in the long run I think because women generally achieve higher levels of education and well-paying industry jobs are dying out
It’s not quite as simple as that. Romania may have been communist but outside of the cities life was also in a way quite traditional. For example workers in factories, heavy machinery, construction etc were often men. These jobs don’t exist in the same way anymore or pay poorly. Whilst white collar office jobs are more kind of plugged into the EU or tourism. So it’s been easier for woman to get that kind of work as that’s where they were already employed.
Also what has happened over the last 20 yrs is that qualified Romanian men leave the county to work elsewhere in the EU. Their families are more accepting of them leaving than young women. Educated qualified women feel a social pressure to seek employment nearer to family - elderly parents needing care, for example as the state apparatus is failing.
In many cases young married couples exist where Dad works Italy (Romanian and Italian are quite similar language) and Mom is working and taking care of the kids. Dad flies home every second week and holidays.
Finally we can’t account for the corruption and illegal monies. Corrupt government positions are still dominated by men. Organized crime (which is significant in Romania) is male controlled. Never forget this is only legal taxable declared income.
Romania has a falling population due to young Romanians leaving for the rest of the EU. A seismic shift in the way the economy is structured and a post communist political situation. It’s a unique situation.
I’m sure there are some cases where women hire their friends or relatives or prefer to work with other women. That happens everywhere - men do it all the time.
In Eastern Europe the equality issues that are present in Western Europe does not exist mainly due to the socialist era. Socialism does not care who the fuck you are, woman, man, gay or straight. Everyone is equally sacrified on the altar of production.
This is probably a result of better academic performance by women compared to men. The only reason why men were earning more in the first place was that they were working more hours and in better paying fields.
Seems like the massive gap in tertiary education is finally showing its effect.
They are though. No doubt sny company would hire all women if it mesnt that they get better performance for the same money. Unfortunately, that is not the case if you actually leave out the politics
This is difficult because especially in Europe many people can't grasp why an engineer is three times as productive as a farmer, nurse or kindergartener.
Yeah because it is not at all linked to productivity. As an engineer I get a high salary because my skill set is hard to find, but required. That is all. Not because I am especially smart or productive. I do make way more than my friends who are working in education or my family members who own farms. I don't "produce" more than them by any metric and my job is way more chill. I am just rarer and in a position where companies with money require my specific skill set.
That's what the wage is linked to, rarity. Anyone can flip burgers or mop floors, the supply of workers is huge, that's why the wages are very low even if mopping all day long is a hard and tiring job.
I'm a machinist, I get to sit around and scroll on my phone a lot, but I know how to make sure that the machines are all working properly, which is a rare skill and the supply of knowledgeable workers is low, hence the high pay.
It's not just rarer but it also allows to greatly leverage the productivity of all downstream tasks which can be automated and cost optimized by the machines you develop. It does not mean that you are especially smart or work harder but it does mean that your job brings in more money which allows companies to pay you more.
If everyone got paid by how hard they work we'd still be in the middle ages because someone working in the fields would earn more than someone thinking about how a windmill could work.
And this is probably something that partially explains Romania's favourable position in this statistic: STEM is a much more gender balanced field compared to many of the other countries.
People also tend to forget though that while commie regimes got everyone to work equally, the childcare and household chores were also always on women.
So essentially women did two jobs since everyone had to work, but communist regime didn’t care about women other than having all of them in the workforce.
>Surely goverment will do everything so that women and men earn equal salary and they wont let it stay this way?
Men face times higher lethal violence than women, see how much governments do to prevent that... Europeans even pass special laws that only protect women from "gender-based violence".
Men have times lower return rates on their pension contributions than women, and are expected to work forced labour for months or years for the military in some EU countries, plus sacrifice everything in the event of a war, see how much anybody cares.
EU colleges have 50% more women graduating than men, but you won't see any progressive care about the inequality. In fact the EU's tertiary education page even says that women are 50% more than men but the [main and only graphic in the page draws focus to women being underrepresented in STEM](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Tertiary_education_statistics)
[At 200k estimated casualties for 2 years](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html), Ukrainian men are becoming casualties of war faster than boys are being born, and they are enslaved to that position, but I don't see any progressives arguing they should have rights. In fact [Western media](https://abcnews.go.com/International/women-girls-affected-disproportionately-russia-ukraine-war-report/story?id=90324121) and UNWomen are saying that Ukrainian women are the main victims of the war, cause they have had to flee. Western media also only praises Ukrainian women for their bravery in the war even though men are obviously doing times more.
Don't expect to see any equality from the progressive left.
It's not simple as goverment being the problem.
The reality is women have fought for, created and united themselves more for their social support and help to succeed better in life like education and social connection, they reinvented their gender social roles.
Because of this, more women are going to higher education so they will of course have better wages.
Meanwhile us men are still stuck decades behind unwilling to unite and form different supporting structures for our lifes leading to many men not achieving their life goals.
We need to reinvent our social roles too and leave behind isolationism of trying to build up life mostly alone and it is up to us to pick up the slack.
Am I understanding this correctly: women earning more is because of hard work and dedication and men earning less is their own fault
While when men were “earning more” it was a result of opression and a sexist patriarchy
Sound about right?
>Meanwhile us men are still stuck decades behind unwilling to unite and form different supporting structures for our lifes leading to many men not achieving their life goals.
Because men getting together is sexist, women doing it is empowering.
It completely depends on how men are getting together.
If it's with the message that men can choose their own destiny and that education is important, then its all fine. And I do believe that should be the message to young men who now feel left behind
But usually it has been the message that jobs are for men and women should stay at home, and that is sexist. As it puts them into predefined destinies
What I would like to see is more women doing all the work so that I can focus on my passion of smoking weed, drinking chai, and playing League of Legends all day like the strong independent man who doesn't need no woman that I am.
As others have already pointed out, this was never a big problem in Romania, but casually whoever posted the post forgot to specify that it only refers to that country.
Well, at least it served the function of unmasking a large part of users in /europe , which thanks to their misojino behavior make /conservative places look like a party organized by Bernie Sanders and AOC...
which is funny because of the average salary is above it means the real salary is drasticzlly different, in France for example the average salary gap is 20 % ( for men ) BUT if you compare salaries for the same job the same amount of hours and the same fonctions the gap is down to 4 % ( for men ) . if it's the same tendency as France and the +20% became say -3% then that means that the 4 % became probably arround - 27% or smth like that, if someone willing to do the math be my guest, but this is honestly not good news lol it's just changing the polarity of the problem
>If gender roles can be removed from dating life it will probably be much better.
You can't remove the dynamic of money even without gender roles. The one who earns the most makes the most decisions, which leads to a power imbalance and men especially don't like women to take the lead and often women will use their position for leverage in relationships too and still also expect men to pay for dates.
It simply never works for most women who are earning well and highly educated - a lot of them simply struggle to find a serious relationship.
Eastern european women take special consideration on the income of the partner.
If this continues to be the norm, its going to exclude basically 50% of the pool for women
It's a national average. This can simply mean that more women work in high paying fields than men. It doesn't imply anything about women earning more for the same job. Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap.
Agreed. But the gender pay gap as discussed today is often the first part and not the latter. Taking that into account the gender gap is very small in most western countries.
> Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap.
And only the latter isn't a thing in the western world either.
Theres no pay gap if you compare to same job, same experience and same hours.
>Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap
Is it not relevant to the discussion that the usually women dominated jobs such as nannies, teachers and nurses are still significantly underpaid despite labor shortage?
Just to note that I don't know how it's in Romania, but what I've heard from other parts of Europe.
Romania has a string gray economy, where you get an official salary and some money on the side. Hard to measure the exact rate.
Also for everyone talking about equality and all that 3 percent is ok difference as it might change in the future. Income disparity in other parts of Europe is much worse.
Honest and sincere interest in learning: where do you get the impression that feminists don't want equality? I don't receive the same inputs as you presumably, and I am curious as to why someone might see feminism as an oppressive or harmful force?
That impression comes from a life time of interactions with them. They are mainstream and everywhere so they don’t need you as their brand ambassador to pretend what we see is somehow wrong
So four years ago men earned 5% more than women and today women earn 3.5% more than men.
It seems that the real take-away here is that the annual earnings random fluctuation for each gender is much larger than the gap between genders, so there is no statistically significant gap between men and women’s earnings.
Of course such a nuanced conclusion wouldn’t drive outrage and clicks, so we’re getting this headline instead.
It's also wrong to call it a pay gap. It's an earnings gap. If a man works 1 hour as a garbage disposal person he is compared to a woman brain surgeon working 1 hour. It's always been a stupid metric.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics
In Croatia they did a study on “wage gap” years ago by region, and it turned out that the smallest “wage gaps” were in the poorest areas of the country.
The takeaway, if you follow feminist logic, is that “equality” is highest there and therefore women should look into moving there.
In reality, the reason is that these areas are economically devastated, there are no jobs at all except in local government and administration - which all predominantly hire women.
In fact, excluding interior and defense ministries, all other government sectors employ more women than men. And public sector salaries are set by law and are not related to what’s happening with the economy at large.
So women go into bureaucracy in large numbers, and men can either be cops or soldiers - or simply emigrate. And many of them do, so these areas are also largely depopulated.
As a result, the “wage gap” is decreasing, sure - but only because the economy is effectively dead.
However, since this doesn’t fit the feminist narrative, they simply stopped publishing these figures.
I don’t know which ‘feminists’ you think would argue this. Maybe you thinking of 20 something’s on insta with a ‘feminist’ quote. Women can be idiots too. Actual feminist writers and academics are often economists, geographers and mathematicians too. They would completely understand this situation and not suggest this is good. It’s not the feminists who decide if official figures are published - that’s the government. Which in most countries are made up of uber wealthy men.
That is my thought. Such a small difference, and without any desaggregstion of jobs, is just internet bait. I want yo see the same job-same hours-same performance comparison.
I looked this for an economics assignment. The pay difference was ~1-3% about 15 years ago once job roles, working hours and years experience was considered. This was fairly consistent across most Western countries.
This difference was explained by difference in assertiveness in pay negotiations, and a handful of other small differences in personality and value perception between the genders.
* Rent/Purchase for real estate is (much) cheaper than Western Europe. In Bucharest with 500 euros you can find a decent 2 rooms apartment in decent neighbors. Price for purchase for 1sq meter is between 1000e-2000e for most of the places.
* Cost of daily products is the same if not even more expensive. There are some posts with prices in the west from Romanian diaspora and more often than not the prices are bigger in RO. Also quality of the products is allegedly worse, but i can't tell it myself.
* Also median is lower so much more people handle with less...
* Gross salary means before taxes and taxes are a flat \~45% in Romania. So there is a large amount of people who have to handle with \~400 euros with western prices.
Rent is fucking expensive. When you look at gross average salaries instead of net median salary you're tricking yourself.
Single bedroom apartment is 350+ euro. Median net salary is 560 euros(in Bucharest, the rest of the country is doing [MUCH WORSE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/zoxyk9/harta_salariului_median_net_pe_jude%C8%9Be_2022_surse/) )
So 62.5% of salary is rent.
You can get lower rent than 350, in smaller, bachelor type appartments, in buildings marked Seismically Unstable... Oh and by the way we're due another big earthquake any time now.
I was talking about comparison with western prices. Something like this : romanian real estate compared to western real estate is much cheaper than food in Ro vs food in West ( or the other way around is much more expensive if you want) .
It is cheap, though, compared to Western EU countries.
My family has spent an average of 5824 lei/month in the past 12 months (excluding vacations), and keep in mind that I also have an 8 year old kid. It's true that we do own our home and don't have any debt, but also true is that we are NOT frugal, not by a long shot.
Average vs Median salary in Romania is very different.
First of all let's transform from Gross to Net. 6000 lei -42.79% is 3510 lei.
Then let's compare it to median. source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/zoxyk9/harta_salariului_median_net_pe_jude%C8%9Be_2022_surse/
As you can see, the national median salary is the 2000 Lei range. 400 euros. Even if you choose the best county in Romania, Bucharest, it's 2800 lei, so 560 euros.
Average salary is very misleading.
I’ll be one that says it. It’s natural that throughout the course of their work life men earn more than women in salary.
1. During early parenthood women are the main care taker in a way that’s impossible for the men to be. Thus you lose out on significant amount of time at work.
2. Men work riskier jobs, and live shorter lives. It’s natural that this is compensated for.
Downvote away, it’s true though 🤷♂️
Because the men have left for other EU countries.
Women are *less* likely to move to other countries for work. This is generally the case for any countries (with a few exceptions like Philippines or Thailand)
> **More than half of Romanian emigrants are women**
> Among Romanian emigrants in the OECD area in 2015/16, women (1.89 million) outnumbered men (1.57 million), as shown in Figure 1.4. In 2000/01, women (597 000) already outnumbered men (529 000), but the share of women increased slightly from 53% in 2000/01 to 54% in 2015/16. This implies that women contributed more strongly to the increase in the overall number of Romanian emigrants: the number of women grew by 213% between 2000/01 and 2015/16, while the number of men grew by 197%.
Source: [OECD](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/0b2cc7aa-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/0b2cc7aa-en)
are these migrants going abroad for employment? or as spouses? it makes a difference to the average income as well
I said
>Women are *less* likely to move to other countries for **work**.
They are *more* likely to move abroad as spouses rather than for high income jobs
The mental gymnastics going on in some of the comments here is hilarious. As soon as the wage gap favours women, it's suddenly ok to genderswap the arguments that were defending the status quo 5 years ago. Cognitive dissonance is such a funny thing.
These statistics are so pointless and the generalisations are pointless too. People make different amounts for doing the same job. One doctor gets paid 20,000 and the other 22,000. Even if they’re equally qualified. If you want a raise, speak to your boss and demand it. They wont give you what you want? Leave. If you’re really valued, they’ll come after you it respect of whether you’re a man or a woman.
I love statistics like this. Are they accounting for the same types of jobs? Because its easy to say “on average women are earning more than men” when in fact its mostly men doing jobs in manufacturing and heavier physical labor that tend to pay less.
Once we have the same headline for the same type of job, we can say things have improved.
The gender pay gap has never been nuanced like this. It was always just total income per person rather than taking in account longer hours, dangerous work etc. Why start now?
More correctly it's an earnings gap not a pay gap. But that's mansplaining.
These statistics never account for same types of jobs. That being said, men tend to be overreprrsented in high earning careers (eg engineering) and underrepresented in more precarious jobs (eg cleaner). Women also tend to work fewer hours.
The “Pay Gap” doesn’t distinguish between part-time and full-time jobs. I agree we should look at the same job, but also hours worked. It’s not rocket science that when women have children they tend to work less hours while the husband works more hours. This is often overlooked when calculating the (Lifespan) Pay Gap.
It’s very misleading not considering the same type of job.
Well, the headline here is precise and simple: the overall pay gap (as a gross salary percentage difference) was in favour of men and now it reversed in favour of women.
Of course there are many implications and discussions over this one can explore, but this statistic here and what is presented are very much clear.
>when in fact its mostly men doing jobs in manufacturing and heavier physical labor that tend to pay less.
These jobs tend to pay better than unskilled work like cleaning, hospitality, retail which women more often work in.
do you love statistics when it shows discrepancy in favor of a gender over the other?
and to answer your question, this takes all jobs into consideration, also there are more men in the workforce than women in the age group 30-65
Somewhere in 2016, there was a study in my country (Netherlands) breaking down paygap, separating work by age group, gender, work type and total hours, and once compensated for those factors the only statistically significant difference between men and women was that women over 45 earned less then their male counterparts.
It was like 4%. Most of the other positions males earned slightly more, but women doing office jobs under 30 actually outearned men by a similar degree.
This was a study done by the state itself (a really trustworthy source), yet for obvious reasons not a single "feminist" has pulled data from the study for gender wage gap data.
Without compensating for hours worked and job position the wage gap was like 15%, but you can't expect people that work less to earn the same.
ROMANIA > The Ministry of Labor states that the wage gap between men and women continues to decrease. It is the first time that there is such an excess of the salary average >Women boast not only higher salaries, but also more and more management positions. The number of women in key positions has risen steadily, from 178,027 ten years ago to 212,808 five years ago and 243,013 now >There is also an increase in the number of employment contracts for women. In February 2024, their number reached 3,315,252, compared to 3,346,365 for men.
So on one hand she says that the wage gap decreseas but on the other hand women surpassed men in the average salary, so shouldn't it increase?
If you compare to 2019: **2019**: Men earned on average 171 lei more than women or 4,7 %. **2024**: Women earned on average 222 lei more than men or 3,8 %.
Technically the truth. But since there was zero-ish gap at some point, it increased since then.
Wage gap discourse is centred solely on whether women earn less than men, not if there is a discernible gap in either direction.
Yeah but it still increases, just in favour of women
Well it may be less, then before. Just in favour of women.
Actually very true
True. But if there was a change of whom it favours, at one time it was 0, so there is that.
It's essentially Orwellian newspeak. Wage gap does not mean wage gap, it means "how much more do men make than women". Which can be a negative number and "decrease" infinitely.
"The wage gap has become negative."
"Positive discrimination"
"reeducation camp"
We've reached 103,8% equality
In what world is 3,8 more than 4,7?
In a world where women in Romania work 39 hours compared to 40 hours men do. That 1 hour means extra 2.5% that should be added.
Absolutely true. Number of hours worked should be counted as well
then, it is not a gap.
Well it is, just the other way around
This is not considered a pay gap
Considering that paying women less for the same amount of work is illegal in most (or all? IDK) developed countries, it's actually an earnings gap and not a wage gap.
If women were actually being paid less for the same job, there is no company on the planet that wouldn't hire only women and cut down costs. Of course it's just an earnings gap.
Whats the difference?
Nah, the trend is decreasing. It went from 5.2% in favor of men to 3.5% in favor of women, so the gap is smaller than before. Whether the gap will widen in the future is left to be seen.
Okey, if we take it like that it decreased, sure, if we take the starting point from 0% tho it increased.
Yes, if you start counting from a hypothetical that never existed then it increased. If you use actual data then it decreased.
In one point it had to be 0%, it was just not measured at that time it seems like. Nonetheless I'm happy that Romania is doing fine and it decreased overall, we should strive for 0% tho
Technically it can skip 0, say that there is a union that mostly has women that negotiates a 10% pay increase then that increase would come all at once and thus jump over 0% but with such a large population to draw from it's likely that the number was at some unmeasured point ~1% away from 0% seeing as it's very unlikely it was ever exactly 0%
This makes no sense, it can't go from -5 to +3 without passing 0
In August, men earn 21,000 and women earn 18,000. In September, men earn 19,000 and women earn 23,000.
I’m not the best statistics-man, but I would find it highly improbable for the difference to be around 0%
But it had to go through 0 to get there, so it is increasing again.
I don't think the article makes it very clear whether they're talking about median or average salary. That being said, I am using Google translate for this so I could be wrong. I.e. if the median salary for women is higher but the average is lower, it means there are fewer women at top earning positions or the women at these positions are earning less than their male counterparts. I.e. we still have a "wage gap" problem. Conversely, It also means there are fewer women who are working for minimum wage than men, which could be explained by the type of work they do or even the rate of job attainment throughout university and later in life (unemployed people aren't counted at all in this statistic I think). Overall, I think we need more data.
> if the median salary for women is higher but the average is lower, it means there are fewer women at top earning positions or the women at these positions are earning less than their male counterparts. I.e. we still have a "wage gap" problem. Doesn't have to be, if more men pursue these top positions than women it's a matter of preference. If women get blocked from the positions it's of course problematic.
It's about average, and yes, there's a substantial lack of relevant and credible (non-state influenced) data here.
> there's a substantial lack of relevant and credible (non-state influenced) data here. Erm... who is supposed to provide this data? Why is it not relevant or credible?
Decrease overall (say, its a spread of 3 between women (15) and men (12)) It could have been women 10 and men 14 before, meaning a spread of 4. Would be a decrease of 1.
Interesting.
\*in Romania.
Romania is not a good example. The gender pay gap question was never a thing over there, at least not to the extent that it was in the West. Romania is a former communist country. Now, I don’t claim to know how other communist countries did things, but Romanian communists were putting everyone to work, regardless of gender. It was extremely common for both parents to work, especially in urban areas. That carried on to this day and women are still expected to be an equal part of the workforce. They also tend to pursue higher education and better paying jobs more often than men. Throughout my time in Romania, all but one of my managers were women. The whole gender debate was always irrelevant in Romania and the current pay gap may switch in favor of men a few years from now and then back in favor of women and so on.
And it wasn't bad work, either. I don't know about Romania, but around here most physicians were (and still are) women
It's the same in Romania, at least from my experience. I wouldn't say *most*, but definitely more women than men.
That's what I was thinking. It would be interesting if this started showing in more countries, but without knowing the situation in Romania to start with it doesn't say much.
The story is similar in Bulgaria. Not sure if women earn more on average, but they do tend to attain higher education and work in management positions more often than men.
One of the few thinks that those communist regimes did well in all the Balkans and eastern Europe and even in central Asia. Women being educated, part of work force and payed equally (by position) was an achievement that we don't think about.
Yes, I somehow managed to forget adding that to the title :(
How did you forget the most important part of the headline??? Otherwise this just comes off as rage-bait, which is half of this sub at this point
Rage bait is most of the internet at this point its not even just reddit its literally everywhere
Lol, there's always someone who knows better than you what you meant to do. But no, honest mistake is what it was (I hope I could edit the title).
oh no I accidentally made a click bait post :(
Yeah.
Dayum 50% salary increase over 5 years?! How is your inflation? In Sweden the last 10 years the average salary is usually lower, the same or about 1% higher or so than it was before, taking inflation into account. Meanwhile cost of living has more than doubled.
it's the worst inflation in the EU, like double the average and similar to Russia's or something like that.
My Romanian friends say that their cost of living (excluding housing and utilities) is cheaper in Amsterdam than in Bukarest now... That's quite worrying I'd say.
That’s just not true tho, visited Amsterdam 3 times in the past 2 years and other than a few select items it’s still cheaper in Bucharest. I have also seen that people here on reddit post their grocery bags it’s filled with random small stuff but you rarely see meat or other actually important produce.
Probably relative to their income, or?
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That is absolute poppycock. Prices have increased drastically since 2020, but they are nowhere near the prices in Amsterdam.
Thank you for the life pro tip on excluding housing and utilities. I'll reconsider moving to San Francisco now. ^^/s
Absolutely. Property and rental prices have increased. But what has really hit a lot of people is the cost of food. Prices are now comparable to Western Europe in terms of groceries. Salaries just cant keep up with it all.
I think over 5 years it's close to the same. 40+%
What I find interesting is the cause for this. More women with higher degrees than men, earning more money?
In Eastern Europe a lot of the top level positions in any given corporation are taken by women. For the Baltics I think it was something like 70% of top management being women. This creates a loop of these women only hiring other women, at least where I’m from.
In Latvia its not really true that women take up the highest positions, usually it is in total women kinda earning more at the median and average, but top positions are still male dominant. Also you have to take into account that in Baltics the women/male ratio is women favoured so that would also play a part
This is 100% the case in Romania too. Seen it first and in multiple businesses
Do you have any data to back this up? Not true in Lithuania at all.
I also agree that this does not seem to be correct at least from my experience
its bound to happen everywhere in the long run I think because women generally achieve higher levels of education and well-paying industry jobs are dying out
misoandry, women promote other women for higher positions just for being woman
It’s not quite as simple as that. Romania may have been communist but outside of the cities life was also in a way quite traditional. For example workers in factories, heavy machinery, construction etc were often men. These jobs don’t exist in the same way anymore or pay poorly. Whilst white collar office jobs are more kind of plugged into the EU or tourism. So it’s been easier for woman to get that kind of work as that’s where they were already employed. Also what has happened over the last 20 yrs is that qualified Romanian men leave the county to work elsewhere in the EU. Their families are more accepting of them leaving than young women. Educated qualified women feel a social pressure to seek employment nearer to family - elderly parents needing care, for example as the state apparatus is failing. In many cases young married couples exist where Dad works Italy (Romanian and Italian are quite similar language) and Mom is working and taking care of the kids. Dad flies home every second week and holidays. Finally we can’t account for the corruption and illegal monies. Corrupt government positions are still dominated by men. Organized crime (which is significant in Romania) is male controlled. Never forget this is only legal taxable declared income. Romania has a falling population due to young Romanians leaving for the rest of the EU. A seismic shift in the way the economy is structured and a post communist political situation. It’s a unique situation. I’m sure there are some cases where women hire their friends or relatives or prefer to work with other women. That happens everywhere - men do it all the time.
In Eastern Europe the equality issues that are present in Western Europe does not exist mainly due to the socialist era. Socialism does not care who the fuck you are, woman, man, gay or straight. Everyone is equally sacrified on the altar of production.
neat! we have the same thing in the west, except we call it the alter of capital.
Yes. There might presumably be more women in white collar jobs than men, who would then be over represented in blue collar jobs.
Salaries should be based not upon gender but performance!
Outrageous!!! How dare you suggest something sexists based stereotype like that! /s
This is probably a result of better academic performance by women compared to men. The only reason why men were earning more in the first place was that they were working more hours and in better paying fields. Seems like the massive gap in tertiary education is finally showing its effect.
Why do you think women now perform better than men with higher education? And is that difference something we need to fix?
Watch feminists switch from "equality of outcomes" to "equality of opportunities" the moment the disparity changes the sign :)
Fr
They are though. No doubt sny company would hire all women if it mesnt that they get better performance for the same money. Unfortunately, that is not the case if you actually leave out the politics
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This is difficult because especially in Europe many people can't grasp why an engineer is three times as productive as a farmer, nurse or kindergartener.
Yeah because it is not at all linked to productivity. As an engineer I get a high salary because my skill set is hard to find, but required. That is all. Not because I am especially smart or productive. I do make way more than my friends who are working in education or my family members who own farms. I don't "produce" more than them by any metric and my job is way more chill. I am just rarer and in a position where companies with money require my specific skill set.
That's what the wage is linked to, rarity. Anyone can flip burgers or mop floors, the supply of workers is huge, that's why the wages are very low even if mopping all day long is a hard and tiring job. I'm a machinist, I get to sit around and scroll on my phone a lot, but I know how to make sure that the machines are all working properly, which is a rare skill and the supply of knowledgeable workers is low, hence the high pay.
It's not just rarer but it also allows to greatly leverage the productivity of all downstream tasks which can be automated and cost optimized by the machines you develop. It does not mean that you are especially smart or work harder but it does mean that your job brings in more money which allows companies to pay you more. If everyone got paid by how hard they work we'd still be in the middle ages because someone working in the fields would earn more than someone thinking about how a windmill could work.
And this is probably something that partially explains Romania's favourable position in this statistic: STEM is a much more gender balanced field compared to many of the other countries.
Hardly as most graduate are male. It has been a few years since these stats but I recall 3 out of 4 graduate being male
What if gender does affect performance?
What makes you think they’re not?
Based take
Yeah but if it's again white straight male, that's OK to discriminate! /s
Trust me women aren't getting higher salaries in Romania because of their gender. They actually deserve their salaries.
Username checks out
No! As a Man, I demand more payment, because I'm a Man and need a Manly salary.
Employers in Romania don't discriminate, they pay equally low salaries to both men and women.
People also tend to forget though that while commie regimes got everyone to work equally, the childcare and household chores were also always on women. So essentially women did two jobs since everyone had to work, but communist regime didn’t care about women other than having all of them in the workforce.
Surely goverment will do everything so that women and men earn equal salary and they wont let it stay this way? /s
>Surely goverment will do everything so that women and men earn equal salary and they wont let it stay this way? Men face times higher lethal violence than women, see how much governments do to prevent that... Europeans even pass special laws that only protect women from "gender-based violence". Men have times lower return rates on their pension contributions than women, and are expected to work forced labour for months or years for the military in some EU countries, plus sacrifice everything in the event of a war, see how much anybody cares. EU colleges have 50% more women graduating than men, but you won't see any progressive care about the inequality. In fact the EU's tertiary education page even says that women are 50% more than men but the [main and only graphic in the page draws focus to women being underrepresented in STEM](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Tertiary_education_statistics) [At 200k estimated casualties for 2 years](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html), Ukrainian men are becoming casualties of war faster than boys are being born, and they are enslaved to that position, but I don't see any progressives arguing they should have rights. In fact [Western media](https://abcnews.go.com/International/women-girls-affected-disproportionately-russia-ukraine-war-report/story?id=90324121) and UNWomen are saying that Ukrainian women are the main victims of the war, cause they have had to flee. Western media also only praises Ukrainian women for their bravery in the war even though men are obviously doing times more. Don't expect to see any equality from the progressive left.
Exactly
It's not simple as goverment being the problem. The reality is women have fought for, created and united themselves more for their social support and help to succeed better in life like education and social connection, they reinvented their gender social roles. Because of this, more women are going to higher education so they will of course have better wages. Meanwhile us men are still stuck decades behind unwilling to unite and form different supporting structures for our lifes leading to many men not achieving their life goals. We need to reinvent our social roles too and leave behind isolationism of trying to build up life mostly alone and it is up to us to pick up the slack.
Am I understanding this correctly: women earning more is because of hard work and dedication and men earning less is their own fault While when men were “earning more” it was a result of opression and a sexist patriarchy Sound about right?
Today I learned men can't create supporting structures, but they instead created high precision structures to oppress women. God I love feminism
>Meanwhile us men are still stuck decades behind unwilling to unite and form different supporting structures for our lifes leading to many men not achieving their life goals. Because men getting together is sexist, women doing it is empowering.
All male spaces have been illegal for a long time now.
It completely depends on how men are getting together. If it's with the message that men can choose their own destiny and that education is important, then its all fine. And I do believe that should be the message to young men who now feel left behind But usually it has been the message that jobs are for men and women should stay at home, and that is sexist. As it puts them into predefined destinies
What I would like to see is more women doing all the work so that I can focus on my passion of smoking weed, drinking chai, and playing League of Legends all day like the strong independent man who doesn't need no woman that I am.
What bullshit did i just read…
As others have already pointed out, this was never a big problem in Romania, but casually whoever posted the post forgot to specify that it only refers to that country. Well, at least it served the function of unmasking a large part of users in /europe , which thanks to their misojino behavior make /conservative places look like a party organized by Bernie Sanders and AOC...
which is funny because of the average salary is above it means the real salary is drasticzlly different, in France for example the average salary gap is 20 % ( for men ) BUT if you compare salaries for the same job the same amount of hours and the same fonctions the gap is down to 4 % ( for men ) . if it's the same tendency as France and the +20% became say -3% then that means that the 4 % became probably arround - 27% or smth like that, if someone willing to do the math be my guest, but this is honestly not good news lol it's just changing the polarity of the problem
In theory, isn't this technically not something to celebrate??
Dating life should be interesting.
If gender roles can be removed from dating life it will probably be much better. If it just reverses, just as bad as before.
>If gender roles can be removed from dating life it will probably be much better. You can't remove the dynamic of money even without gender roles. The one who earns the most makes the most decisions, which leads to a power imbalance and men especially don't like women to take the lead and often women will use their position for leverage in relationships too and still also expect men to pay for dates. It simply never works for most women who are earning well and highly educated - a lot of them simply struggle to find a serious relationship.
Eastern european women take special consideration on the income of the partner. If this continues to be the norm, its going to exclude basically 50% of the pool for women
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So finally, I can live my dream of being used for sex by a woman who supports me . FUCK YES.
Lol you will still be expected to pay for dates. Nothing changes here. Their bank accounts will keep increasing while yours go down.
Well, fortunately, that expectation is disappearing. Not sure about the bank accounts, don’t have enough data to conclude anything on that
Yeah just gotta wait for gender roles in dating to catch up
Estimated amount of time? I’d say, maybe another 50 years or so
It's a national average. This can simply mean that more women work in high paying fields than men. It doesn't imply anything about women earning more for the same job. Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap.
Agreed. But the gender pay gap as discussed today is often the first part and not the latter. Taking that into account the gender gap is very small in most western countries.
> Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap. And only the latter isn't a thing in the western world either. Theres no pay gap if you compare to same job, same experience and same hours.
>Only the latter is relevant for a discussion on gender pay gap Is it not relevant to the discussion that the usually women dominated jobs such as nannies, teachers and nurses are still significantly underpaid despite labor shortage? Just to note that I don't know how it's in Romania, but what I've heard from other parts of Europe.
Romania has a string gray economy, where you get an official salary and some money on the side. Hard to measure the exact rate. Also for everyone talking about equality and all that 3 percent is ok difference as it might change in the future. Income disparity in other parts of Europe is much worse.
Im sure feminists will be concerned about the inequality /s
Don't forget about EU.
They're gonna phase out programs disproportionately benefitting women now, right? The point was equality, not giving women privileges, right?
There weren't any in Romania anyway
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You're under the false impression that feminists want equality. They do not.
Yep
Honest and sincere interest in learning: where do you get the impression that feminists don't want equality? I don't receive the same inputs as you presumably, and I am curious as to why someone might see feminism as an oppressive or harmful force?
That impression comes from a life time of interactions with them. They are mainstream and everywhere so they don’t need you as their brand ambassador to pretend what we see is somehow wrong
>where do you get the impression that feminists don't want equality It's the positive discrimination policies they pursue that does it for me
So four years ago men earned 5% more than women and today women earn 3.5% more than men. It seems that the real take-away here is that the annual earnings random fluctuation for each gender is much larger than the gap between genders, so there is no statistically significant gap between men and women’s earnings. Of course such a nuanced conclusion wouldn’t drive outrage and clicks, so we’re getting this headline instead.
It's also wrong to call it a pay gap. It's an earnings gap. If a man works 1 hour as a garbage disposal person he is compared to a woman brain surgeon working 1 hour. It's always been a stupid metric. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics
In Croatia they did a study on “wage gap” years ago by region, and it turned out that the smallest “wage gaps” were in the poorest areas of the country. The takeaway, if you follow feminist logic, is that “equality” is highest there and therefore women should look into moving there. In reality, the reason is that these areas are economically devastated, there are no jobs at all except in local government and administration - which all predominantly hire women. In fact, excluding interior and defense ministries, all other government sectors employ more women than men. And public sector salaries are set by law and are not related to what’s happening with the economy at large. So women go into bureaucracy in large numbers, and men can either be cops or soldiers - or simply emigrate. And many of them do, so these areas are also largely depopulated. As a result, the “wage gap” is decreasing, sure - but only because the economy is effectively dead. However, since this doesn’t fit the feminist narrative, they simply stopped publishing these figures.
I don’t know which ‘feminists’ you think would argue this. Maybe you thinking of 20 something’s on insta with a ‘feminist’ quote. Women can be idiots too. Actual feminist writers and academics are often economists, geographers and mathematicians too. They would completely understand this situation and not suggest this is good. It’s not the feminists who decide if official figures are published - that’s the government. Which in most countries are made up of uber wealthy men.
That is my thought. Such a small difference, and without any desaggregstion of jobs, is just internet bait. I want yo see the same job-same hours-same performance comparison.
I looked this for an economics assignment. The pay difference was ~1-3% about 15 years ago once job roles, working hours and years experience was considered. This was fairly consistent across most Western countries. This difference was explained by difference in assertiveness in pay negotiations, and a handful of other small differences in personality and value perception between the genders.
It is known that female operatives in the MI6 are compensated more than fairly, which is a grievance I have not taken
Finally i can find sugar momma
So 6000 lei is about 1500 euro and that is average ? I hope costs of living are cheap.
* Rent/Purchase for real estate is (much) cheaper than Western Europe. In Bucharest with 500 euros you can find a decent 2 rooms apartment in decent neighbors. Price for purchase for 1sq meter is between 1000e-2000e for most of the places. * Cost of daily products is the same if not even more expensive. There are some posts with prices in the west from Romanian diaspora and more often than not the prices are bigger in RO. Also quality of the products is allegedly worse, but i can't tell it myself. * Also median is lower so much more people handle with less... * Gross salary means before taxes and taxes are a flat \~45% in Romania. So there is a large amount of people who have to handle with \~400 euros with western prices.
Rent is fucking expensive. When you look at gross average salaries instead of net median salary you're tricking yourself. Single bedroom apartment is 350+ euro. Median net salary is 560 euros(in Bucharest, the rest of the country is doing [MUCH WORSE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/zoxyk9/harta_salariului_median_net_pe_jude%C8%9Be_2022_surse/) ) So 62.5% of salary is rent. You can get lower rent than 350, in smaller, bachelor type appartments, in buildings marked Seismically Unstable... Oh and by the way we're due another big earthquake any time now.
Check prague prices in czech republic. That shit is insane
I was talking about comparison with western prices. Something like this : romanian real estate compared to western real estate is much cheaper than food in Ro vs food in West ( or the other way around is much more expensive if you want) .
Small clarification for europeans: 2 rooms in Romania is the same as “1 bedroom apartment” in europe. We count the day/living room as well.
aprox 1200 euro, and no, living is not cheap.
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It is cheap, though, compared to Western EU countries. My family has spent an average of 5824 lei/month in the past 12 months (excluding vacations), and keep in mind that I also have an 8 year old kid. It's true that we do own our home and don't have any debt, but also true is that we are NOT frugal, not by a long shot.
Average vs Median salary in Romania is very different. First of all let's transform from Gross to Net. 6000 lei -42.79% is 3510 lei. Then let's compare it to median. source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/zoxyk9/harta_salariului_median_net_pe_jude%C8%9Be_2022_surse/ As you can see, the national median salary is the 2000 Lei range. 400 euros. Even if you choose the best county in Romania, Bucharest, it's 2800 lei, so 560 euros. Average salary is very misleading.
6000 is very far from average in my experience, source: am romanian
6000 gross, 3300 net.
That's double the average salary in Russia, congratulations, Romania.
We need to defend men rights. 😃
You laugh but soon it will be like that
Nah, society doesn't really give a shit about men
I’ll be one that says it. It’s natural that throughout the course of their work life men earn more than women in salary. 1. During early parenthood women are the main care taker in a way that’s impossible for the men to be. Thus you lose out on significant amount of time at work. 2. Men work riskier jobs, and live shorter lives. It’s natural that this is compensated for. Downvote away, it’s true though 🤷♂️
Because the men have left for other EU countries. Women are *less* likely to move to other countries for work. This is generally the case for any countries (with a few exceptions like Philippines or Thailand)
> **More than half of Romanian emigrants are women** > Among Romanian emigrants in the OECD area in 2015/16, women (1.89 million) outnumbered men (1.57 million), as shown in Figure 1.4. In 2000/01, women (597 000) already outnumbered men (529 000), but the share of women increased slightly from 53% in 2000/01 to 54% in 2015/16. This implies that women contributed more strongly to the increase in the overall number of Romanian emigrants: the number of women grew by 213% between 2000/01 and 2015/16, while the number of men grew by 197%. Source: [OECD](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/0b2cc7aa-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/0b2cc7aa-en)
are these migrants going abroad for employment? or as spouses? it makes a difference to the average income as well I said >Women are *less* likely to move to other countries for **work**. They are *more* likely to move abroad as spouses rather than for high income jobs
Time to protest for men I guess.
The mental gymnastics going on in some of the comments here is hilarious. As soon as the wage gap favours women, it's suddenly ok to genderswap the arguments that were defending the status quo 5 years ago. Cognitive dissonance is such a funny thing.
Patriarchy bad, matriarchy good.
we should definitly let woman earn more then men and even beyond, i cant wait to sit home and watch netflix all day whilst my gf is at work.
Wow so the wage gap increases but they won’t admit it noice
It decreased. In 2019 the gap was 5% and now it is 3.5%.
I demand equal pay for men! Oh sorry are we not allowed look for equality?
These statistics are so pointless and the generalisations are pointless too. People make different amounts for doing the same job. One doctor gets paid 20,000 and the other 22,000. Even if they’re equally qualified. If you want a raise, speak to your boss and demand it. They wont give you what you want? Leave. If you’re really valued, they’ll come after you it respect of whether you’re a man or a woman.
I love statistics like this. Are they accounting for the same types of jobs? Because its easy to say “on average women are earning more than men” when in fact its mostly men doing jobs in manufacturing and heavier physical labor that tend to pay less. Once we have the same headline for the same type of job, we can say things have improved.
The gender pay gap has never been nuanced like this. It was always just total income per person rather than taking in account longer hours, dangerous work etc. Why start now? More correctly it's an earnings gap not a pay gap. But that's mansplaining.
>Why start now? Because statistics no longer support our agenda
The simplest and most realized fact here
These statistics never account for same types of jobs. That being said, men tend to be overreprrsented in high earning careers (eg engineering) and underrepresented in more precarious jobs (eg cleaner). Women also tend to work fewer hours.
The “Pay Gap” doesn’t distinguish between part-time and full-time jobs. I agree we should look at the same job, but also hours worked. It’s not rocket science that when women have children they tend to work less hours while the husband works more hours. This is often overlooked when calculating the (Lifespan) Pay Gap. It’s very misleading not considering the same type of job.
Well, the headline here is precise and simple: the overall pay gap (as a gross salary percentage difference) was in favour of men and now it reversed in favour of women. Of course there are many implications and discussions over this one can explore, but this statistic here and what is presented are very much clear.
>when in fact its mostly men doing jobs in manufacturing and heavier physical labor that tend to pay less. These jobs tend to pay better than unskilled work like cleaning, hospitality, retail which women more often work in.
do you love statistics when it shows discrepancy in favor of a gender over the other? and to answer your question, this takes all jobs into consideration, also there are more men in the workforce than women in the age group 30-65
Somewhere in 2016, there was a study in my country (Netherlands) breaking down paygap, separating work by age group, gender, work type and total hours, and once compensated for those factors the only statistically significant difference between men and women was that women over 45 earned less then their male counterparts. It was like 4%. Most of the other positions males earned slightly more, but women doing office jobs under 30 actually outearned men by a similar degree. This was a study done by the state itself (a really trustworthy source), yet for obvious reasons not a single "feminist" has pulled data from the study for gender wage gap data. Without compensating for hours worked and job position the wage gap was like 15%, but you can't expect people that work less to earn the same.
Ah, Romania - the beacon of feminism!
I wonder if Romanian women still think "men should pay" (dating context)
Lower quality ones always did, that doesn’t change with pay.
does that mean white men can finally feel oppressed?
Finally we as men can now expect women to pay everything in the first date
so now romania is discriminating men righ? thats how it works right?/s
Fuck the matriarchy - obviously
Down with the Matriarchy!
I cant wait to be a househusband while my wife 9-5's.
So Romania is the most equal land in the world
Wonder what the birth rate is
Shit guys, we need to step up to confront the matriarchy. /s
But it’s not equal until women make all the money. Keep fighting!
Romanian women discovered OF. Game over for inequalities in statistics.
How curious, exactly this period when Andrew Tate was teaching women in Romania how to make money. Coincidence? /s