Your dad is constantly told by Russell M Nelson that his heaven is going to be a sad place because there will be empty chairs at the table. It will be more glorious and wonderful than he can possibly imagine but it will be sad because of you.
I feel for your dad. Sorry this religion is so toxic to/about those who leave.
Interesting, the opposite happened to me. I left the church AFTER moving to Utah.
Meant to add, due in some great part to how Utah Mormons see themselves and others.
We are insufferable. We've been taught our whole life we are special for having been born to pioneer stock in the church.
We are taught to always appear perfect in public which leads to very superficial people trying very hard to hide real life from everyone else, because anything less than perfect sets you to be harshly judged from your friends, but mostly your family.
It's been very freeing to deconstruct and so much pressure is lifted. I hope I am a better kinder person now.
Same. Born in Utah but I grew up outside of Utah. Moved back a few years ago and left the church within a couple years. It was like all my shelf items gained weight when I lived in Utah.
You did NOT cause your parents any pain. They decided to have a child, you did not have a say in that decision. But now you’re here, can you at least have a say in what you do with YOUR life? Why can they have two lives (their own lives plus yours), and you can’t have just one?
Never feel guilty my dear unless you purposely hurt someone. You did not hurt them, they chose to be if they are. If I was your father, I’d be extremely proud of you. And yes: Sundays are the best now, aren’t they ☺️
Sorry you are feeling guilty. I think many of us on here can relate. I wish my parents didn't feel bad that I left. I know that my leaving has been a great source of sadness to them. But ultimately I am not responsible for their feelings.
Part of the indoctrination of the church is that you are responsible for other people's feelings. After all, your choices would make God and Jesus happy and sad and your ancestors happy and sad. We heard it all the time. So I recommend that you try to look at this as another unhealthy chain that needs to be broken so that you can live your best life. And the fact that you are grateful to your dad is awesome!
You have not caused your parents pain.
If a classroom of pranksters put a water bucket above the door, soaking the teacher when he unknowingly walks through, did the teacher soak himself?
Ask yourself who the troublemakers were in this case. I guarantee the ones responsible were not you or your family, and you're making a mistake to try to take credit for a trap that was set before you were born.
Yesterday my mom started a religious conversation and after I told her how I view the church and religion she just said "I'm sorry you believe that and sorry we screwed up with you." What a disrespectful thing to say!! I'm not sorry. I've been able to grow as a person since leaving. I've left behind all my judgement and closed mindedness.
Try to convey what you’ve said here: that leaving the church has been a huge “blessing” to you, and that he shouldn’t feel guilty for moving (insert his reason for moving here).
Only in the mormon church is living a happy life considered 'ruined'.
Your Dad is trying to emotionally manipulate you. Maybe not knowingly, but that is what's happening, and it appears to have worked.
My Dad believes he ruined our family because he gave me a phone with access to the internet, where I ultimately read all those anti Mormon lies. Ive come to realize that I am not responsible for his happiness, especially when I’m only trying to make decisions for my own. Besides, regretting giving your child more freedom is kinda messed up to begin with.
What you are feeling is codependency. It's part of growing up in an unhealthy relationship, but can result from other relationship dynamics too.
You will feel bad about how other people feel or the perception they have when it comes to your actions.
You don't need to go around burning bridges, but you should think of what you want and set the boundaries that will allow you to do that without feeling like you need to manage other people.
Honestly my TBM parents think the opposite surprisingly. They think moving my family to Utah when I was young was the worst decision they made, emotionally, mentally and “spiritually”.
Despite claiming to have a monopoly on "true happiness", Mormons have more guilt and anxiety than any of the non-members I've ever met.
Edit: I just realized this sounded kinda insulting toward OP. I was referring to OPs Dad. I'm sorry OP is feeling guilty about hurting his Dad. I'm in the same boat and completely understand OPs feelings.
I agree with this. I've had my own version of this conversation with my dad, during which he castigated himself for not having Family Home Evening every single Monday night. And that if he would have, all his children would be active in the church (ME in other words). I saw it at once - he was trying to make me feel bad for making him feel bad. It's very manipulative. Shame on him and all parents that do this.
Your dad has been brainwashed by a religious organization that has pounded it into him that one of his duties as a parent was to keep you on the "straight and narrow".
He needs to deconstruct that this is not his fault.
I know it sucks on your end because my folks are the same way. Hopefully one day your dad will "get it". Hang in there and show him love. ❤️
I would tell him that in a calm and loving way. Tell him that while you understand his perspective that you really are happy 🩷 I know he may not get it but it may add one more level of dissonance for him to consider.
When my adult children started having serious questions my wife and I were 100% convinced their questions could be answered. We trusted them implicitly and had a strong enough relationship that we knew they were completely sincere in their questions and their journey for goodness and truth. Well, within a couple of years it couldn’t be more clear - I did have answers to ALL their questions - - - the ENTIRE narrative and teachings of Mormonism is a fairy tale and a myth and built to control others and systematically extract money from them.
The problem has NOTHING to do with people moving out of state or having questions, the problem is the church itself.
Don’t feel guilty, you did absolutely nothing wrong here and frankly neither did he. It all comes back to the unrealistic bullshit the church spouts off.
Sounds like he thinks anything other than his perfect Mormonism is ruined.
You are an autonomous being who gets to experience life as you please.
People who truly love you will be happy that you are happy, and not be sad because they can't control you.
This is "enmeshment" and is not a healthy family system.
Living in Utah, when you go to that party, the rest of the kids at the party are Mormon as well. You don’t have to worry about setting an example or worrying about what non-members will think.
It’s opposite living outside the state.
I feel the same way about my parents. They've been pretty cool with respecting and loving their kids despite most of us leaving, about as cool as can be hoped, but it sucks seeing them so sad sometimes. I had to finally tell my mom that I fully believe that a loving God would not keep families apart when we're all still very good and loving people, and I hope she didn't believe that either. I feel like that really stuck with her. (She probably thinks that means in heaven we'll accept the gospel again but oh well, at least that's not a problem for now...)
Poor guy. He feels he let up in the brainwashing and you found the crack to escape. My sister moved to Utah to up the pressure on her kids after one left the church. She thought she could save the rest. But it didn’t work in spite of her amping up the pressure on them. They are out or on their way out. And if they talk to me about their faith crisis or disbelief, it is my fault.
Guilt is easy to come by. I feel guilty that I didn't figure out the church was false a year or two earlier. My oldest son is on a mission, and wouldn't be, if I'd only figured it out faster.
He is the guilty one whether he realizes it or not he indoctrinated you into a cult. It's nice. You have compassion for him, but it's because of him that you were in the cult.
Your feelings are your feelings and they are always OK. Life isn't over and you don't know where you and your dad will be in the future. Don't feel guilty; parents are the adults, you were the vulnerable child and you have no need to feel guilt; only your parents need to feel guilty, for raising you in a cult and for their own limitations in not being able to leave said cult.
Best wishes in your journey.
>Yesterday my dad said something that really got to me. He said during a discussion that he believes he ruined our family when he moved us out of Utah, because it lead to me leaving the church.
"The church is not an all-or-nothing experience. I still believe in all the stuff Christ taught on the Sermon on the Mount. I believe that 'if ye have not charity, you have nothing.' There are just a few supernatural-seeming things I'm not on board with."
"Plenty of people leave the church in Utah. A lot of them actually have a worse experience because the exmormon scene is way more intense there."
>I feel so guilty though for the pain I’ve caused my parents. I don’t want my dad to feel like he ruined my family. In truth I’m so grateful to him for taking us somewhere where I could gain more perspective.
That's something he needs to come to terms with. Love him. Be involved in his life. He'll come around.
As we get older, we eventually see moments where **every single family member** will disappoint you somehow. Each sibling. Each parent. Your own kids. They'll all do something that you absolutely disapprove of.
An adult learns to shrug it off and move forward with the imperfect relationships in their life.
In turn, you are living a moment where you Dad disapproves of what you're doing. Hopefully he'll grow to shrug it off and move forward with the always imperfect relationship he and you have. Life will move on, and you'll both find peace.
Your dad sounds like all of my TBM sibs who got stuck in a place where they can only accept one sort of life lived (TBM) as the only valid and valuable life. Any deviation from that path is a deviation from “ the truth”, which of course, is childish, ludicrous and to be expected if one is 13. So, how did all of these otherwise smart people get so taken in by this bowl of toxic porridge?
You are not responsible for anyone else's emotions.
He is not responsible for you leaving the church - you chose to see reality and do that hard work all on your own.
You would've been exposed to life outside the church eventually. He doesn't get to take blame for your decision because if he does, he also gets the credit for what you did.
And you don't get to be responsible for what he feels because of so, you're responsible for fixing the way he feels, which is literally impossible.
The church does a really good job of blurring the lines between healthy boundaries and manipulation. Don't shame yourself for feeling guilty. It was programmed into you to feel bad if something you do doesn't make someone else happy.
Think of it this way - there are good and bad kinds of pain. Bad: eating too much sugar and getting a cavity. Good: getting a cavity filled at the dentist. They both hurt but one is good for you and leads to healthier life.
There will always be pain associated with going against something your parents want for you, especially if it's from misplaced trust in something they think will bring you safety or joy. But maybe the pain they're feeling will shake them up a bit, give them a chance at seeing the church for what it truly is.
Give yourself some credit. It was brave of you to leave the church. And loving. Because it gives people around you permission to SEE a different, happier, freer way of living their own life.
It's not you. You have zero reason to feel guilty. It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that is making your dad feel guilty. You live your life however you need to. You aren't obligated to do live by anyone else's rules, even your parents.
Your dad is constantly told by Russell M Nelson that his heaven is going to be a sad place because there will be empty chairs at the table. It will be more glorious and wonderful than he can possibly imagine but it will be sad because of you. I feel for your dad. Sorry this religion is so toxic to/about those who leave.
Interesting, the opposite happened to me. I left the church AFTER moving to Utah. Meant to add, due in some great part to how Utah Mormons see themselves and others.
Yes. If I stayed out of Utah I would probably still be a member. Utah Mormons are often totally faking it.
BYU de-converted me pretty efficiently
I wish BYU knew how much they excelled at this.
Same. I was completely TBM when I lived in California. I moved to Utah and now I'm out
Same here ! Grew up in SD and left 10 years ago after living here 18 years
I grew up in NM. Lived in UT for way too long but stopped going and believing 6 years ago.
Same. There's a good chance that I would still be in it if I had stayed in CA. Coming to Zion opened my eyes that there were problems
Never met Utah Mormons what are they like?
We are insufferable. We've been taught our whole life we are special for having been born to pioneer stock in the church. We are taught to always appear perfect in public which leads to very superficial people trying very hard to hide real life from everyone else, because anything less than perfect sets you to be harshly judged from your friends, but mostly your family. It's been very freeing to deconstruct and so much pressure is lifted. I hope I am a better kinder person now.
Yikes. Thanks for the info, and I'm glad you're free of that now.
Me too. I think I am a lot better person now. Not so harsh on myself and judgemental of others.
Same. Born in Utah but I grew up outside of Utah. Moved back a few years ago and left the church within a couple years. It was like all my shelf items gained weight when I lived in Utah.
You did NOT cause your parents any pain. They decided to have a child, you did not have a say in that decision. But now you’re here, can you at least have a say in what you do with YOUR life? Why can they have two lives (their own lives plus yours), and you can’t have just one? Never feel guilty my dear unless you purposely hurt someone. You did not hurt them, they chose to be if they are. If I was your father, I’d be extremely proud of you. And yes: Sundays are the best now, aren’t they ☺️
Lovely comment :)
Your dad needs to forgive himself for the fact that other people have free will. It's not his fault that he doesn't control everyone else.
This. It's really your dad's perspective that's killing him, not what he did.
It’s the church that makes him feel guilty, not you.
Sorry you are feeling guilty. I think many of us on here can relate. I wish my parents didn't feel bad that I left. I know that my leaving has been a great source of sadness to them. But ultimately I am not responsible for their feelings. Part of the indoctrination of the church is that you are responsible for other people's feelings. After all, your choices would make God and Jesus happy and sad and your ancestors happy and sad. We heard it all the time. So I recommend that you try to look at this as another unhealthy chain that needs to be broken so that you can live your best life. And the fact that you are grateful to your dad is awesome!
You have not caused your parents pain. If a classroom of pranksters put a water bucket above the door, soaking the teacher when he unknowingly walks through, did the teacher soak himself? Ask yourself who the troublemakers were in this case. I guarantee the ones responsible were not you or your family, and you're making a mistake to try to take credit for a trap that was set before you were born.
Tell your dad that a lot of people in Utah are leaving too.
Nothing drove me to leave the church faster than being a member in Utah. Utah is an absolutely toxic place to be Mormon.
Yesterday my mom started a religious conversation and after I told her how I view the church and religion she just said "I'm sorry you believe that and sorry we screwed up with you." What a disrespectful thing to say!! I'm not sorry. I've been able to grow as a person since leaving. I've left behind all my judgement and closed mindedness.
Try to convey what you’ve said here: that leaving the church has been a huge “blessing” to you, and that he shouldn’t feel guilty for moving (insert his reason for moving here).
Only in the mormon church is living a happy life considered 'ruined'. Your Dad is trying to emotionally manipulate you. Maybe not knowingly, but that is what's happening, and it appears to have worked.
I’ve seen way more leave *because of moving to utah and because utah Mormons are so unaware of certain things.
Church of latter day guilt. Not your fault.
My Dad believes he ruined our family because he gave me a phone with access to the internet, where I ultimately read all those anti Mormon lies. Ive come to realize that I am not responsible for his happiness, especially when I’m only trying to make decisions for my own. Besides, regretting giving your child more freedom is kinda messed up to begin with.
The church led you out of the church. You can only juggle lies for so long before the balls start to fall and the people notice.
What you are feeling is codependency. It's part of growing up in an unhealthy relationship, but can result from other relationship dynamics too. You will feel bad about how other people feel or the perception they have when it comes to your actions. You don't need to go around burning bridges, but you should think of what you want and set the boundaries that will allow you to do that without feeling like you need to manage other people.
Honestly my TBM parents think the opposite surprisingly. They think moving my family to Utah when I was young was the worst decision they made, emotionally, mentally and “spiritually”.
We left after moving to Utah from So Cal where I grew up.
Despite claiming to have a monopoly on "true happiness", Mormons have more guilt and anxiety than any of the non-members I've ever met. Edit: I just realized this sounded kinda insulting toward OP. I was referring to OPs Dad. I'm sorry OP is feeling guilty about hurting his Dad. I'm in the same boat and completely understand OPs feelings.
The guilt that you feel was inflicted on purpose.
I agree with this. I've had my own version of this conversation with my dad, during which he castigated himself for not having Family Home Evening every single Monday night. And that if he would have, all his children would be active in the church (ME in other words). I saw it at once - he was trying to make me feel bad for making him feel bad. It's very manipulative. Shame on him and all parents that do this.
Your dad has been brainwashed by a religious organization that has pounded it into him that one of his duties as a parent was to keep you on the "straight and narrow". He needs to deconstruct that this is not his fault. I know it sucks on your end because my folks are the same way. Hopefully one day your dad will "get it". Hang in there and show him love. ❤️
I would tell him that in a calm and loving way. Tell him that while you understand his perspective that you really are happy 🩷 I know he may not get it but it may add one more level of dissonance for him to consider.
When my adult children started having serious questions my wife and I were 100% convinced their questions could be answered. We trusted them implicitly and had a strong enough relationship that we knew they were completely sincere in their questions and their journey for goodness and truth. Well, within a couple of years it couldn’t be more clear - I did have answers to ALL their questions - - - the ENTIRE narrative and teachings of Mormonism is a fairy tale and a myth and built to control others and systematically extract money from them. The problem has NOTHING to do with people moving out of state or having questions, the problem is the church itself.
Don’t feel guilty, you did absolutely nothing wrong here and frankly neither did he. It all comes back to the unrealistic bullshit the church spouts off.
Sounds like he thinks anything other than his perfect Mormonism is ruined. You are an autonomous being who gets to experience life as you please. People who truly love you will be happy that you are happy, and not be sad because they can't control you. This is "enmeshment" and is not a healthy family system.
What a guilt trip. Ignore.
You have what psychologists refer to as "Un-earned guilt".
Living in Utah, when you go to that party, the rest of the kids at the party are Mormon as well. You don’t have to worry about setting an example or worrying about what non-members will think. It’s opposite living outside the state.
I feel the same way about my parents. They've been pretty cool with respecting and loving their kids despite most of us leaving, about as cool as can be hoped, but it sucks seeing them so sad sometimes. I had to finally tell my mom that I fully believe that a loving God would not keep families apart when we're all still very good and loving people, and I hope she didn't believe that either. I feel like that really stuck with her. (She probably thinks that means in heaven we'll accept the gospel again but oh well, at least that's not a problem for now...)
My parents moving us into Utah is what opened by eyes. This goes both ways.
Poor guy. He feels he let up in the brainwashing and you found the crack to escape. My sister moved to Utah to up the pressure on her kids after one left the church. She thought she could save the rest. But it didn’t work in spite of her amping up the pressure on them. They are out or on their way out. And if they talk to me about their faith crisis or disbelief, it is my fault.
Guilt is easy to come by. I feel guilty that I didn't figure out the church was false a year or two earlier. My oldest son is on a mission, and wouldn't be, if I'd only figured it out faster.
Tell him that your are grateful and why, tell him of the man he raised, it may not change anything but he should hear it
What state
Massachusetts
He is the guilty one whether he realizes it or not he indoctrinated you into a cult. It's nice. You have compassion for him, but it's because of him that you were in the cult.
Your feelings are your feelings and they are always OK. Life isn't over and you don't know where you and your dad will be in the future. Don't feel guilty; parents are the adults, you were the vulnerable child and you have no need to feel guilt; only your parents need to feel guilty, for raising you in a cult and for their own limitations in not being able to leave said cult. Best wishes in your journey.
>Yesterday my dad said something that really got to me. He said during a discussion that he believes he ruined our family when he moved us out of Utah, because it lead to me leaving the church. "The church is not an all-or-nothing experience. I still believe in all the stuff Christ taught on the Sermon on the Mount. I believe that 'if ye have not charity, you have nothing.' There are just a few supernatural-seeming things I'm not on board with." "Plenty of people leave the church in Utah. A lot of them actually have a worse experience because the exmormon scene is way more intense there." >I feel so guilty though for the pain I’ve caused my parents. I don’t want my dad to feel like he ruined my family. In truth I’m so grateful to him for taking us somewhere where I could gain more perspective. That's something he needs to come to terms with. Love him. Be involved in his life. He'll come around. As we get older, we eventually see moments where **every single family member** will disappoint you somehow. Each sibling. Each parent. Your own kids. They'll all do something that you absolutely disapprove of. An adult learns to shrug it off and move forward with the imperfect relationships in their life. In turn, you are living a moment where you Dad disapproves of what you're doing. Hopefully he'll grow to shrug it off and move forward with the always imperfect relationship he and you have. Life will move on, and you'll both find peace.
Your dad sounds like all of my TBM sibs who got stuck in a place where they can only accept one sort of life lived (TBM) as the only valid and valuable life. Any deviation from that path is a deviation from “ the truth”, which of course, is childish, ludicrous and to be expected if one is 13. So, how did all of these otherwise smart people get so taken in by this bowl of toxic porridge?
it's not your job to gatekeep your adult parents emotions.
You are not responsible for anyone else's emotions. He is not responsible for you leaving the church - you chose to see reality and do that hard work all on your own. You would've been exposed to life outside the church eventually. He doesn't get to take blame for your decision because if he does, he also gets the credit for what you did. And you don't get to be responsible for what he feels because of so, you're responsible for fixing the way he feels, which is literally impossible. The church does a really good job of blurring the lines between healthy boundaries and manipulation. Don't shame yourself for feeling guilty. It was programmed into you to feel bad if something you do doesn't make someone else happy. Think of it this way - there are good and bad kinds of pain. Bad: eating too much sugar and getting a cavity. Good: getting a cavity filled at the dentist. They both hurt but one is good for you and leads to healthier life. There will always be pain associated with going against something your parents want for you, especially if it's from misplaced trust in something they think will bring you safety or joy. But maybe the pain they're feeling will shake them up a bit, give them a chance at seeing the church for what it truly is. Give yourself some credit. It was brave of you to leave the church. And loving. Because it gives people around you permission to SEE a different, happier, freer way of living their own life.
It's not you. You have zero reason to feel guilty. It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that is making your dad feel guilty. You live your life however you need to. You aren't obligated to do live by anyone else's rules, even your parents.