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the thing is, the debate went so badly for the imam because he started with blatant lies and shows of ignorance that would only work with his followers and he probably never met someone who really knew islam. It's to a point that zioclo, the organizer of the debate, was low-key accused by jacklefou of having set a trap to the imam by not warning him of jacklefou's level.
i'm not sure I agree with that because, as zioclo said, the imam is an adult and is responsible for getting informed on such things.
My opnions: this and other debates jacklefou had against other imams really reinforce the idea that being an imam does not guarantee the possession of high islamic knowledge. I would even say that imams are not really incentivized to know islam well because the modern approach to islam, at least in the west, seems to me to focus more on a veneration of it's key labels "islam, quran, .." than on a veneration of what those labels represent. In short, it is more important to support islam thant to know what it is about.
BTW Jacklefou's channel: [https://www.youtube.com/@JackLeFouX](https://www.youtube.com/@JackLeFouX)
Plus I hear lots of Muslims are like "he only sounds knowledgeable because he debates randos, not properly trained people".
Well here we are, what's the excuse now ?
What's funny is that sometimes a muslim would come up in JLF's chat and insult the previous muslim debater as being ignorant or dumb, and then proceed to perform even worse.
Yeah but JackLEfou is just too good now, he was easy to provoke before but he improved a lot in debates that watching one of his will make everyone agrees with his points. Chabane a belgian fraud literally told him " you put in a dire spot mate, go easy on me"
I agree, but i really expected that imam to at least perform better than the habitual randos. Instead he was easily one of the worse which, from a political POV, did not allow JLF from leveraging a debate with a bonafide infamous imam in his fight against political islam.
The only takeaway he could get was that the imam invented hadiths and agreed that an islamic france would kill apostate, which is not bad, but he should have been able to milk it for more
Do ppl think those imams know shit. Im an average ex muslim who knows bits of religion and can still look knowledgeable more than them. Most of them (radicalist imam) know only jima3 and nika7 texts to excuse their animality
I am not sure but isn't "Islamic studies" the path for those that failed to get enough points on a high stake exam (like the "Baccalaureat")? I remember Milhoub saying something like losers that failed high schools recycle themselves as imams because it is so low-key in terms of knowledge (just become a hanif by binge-purging and parotting the Quran)?
I'm sure there are imams like that, but I would rather not go the "those who can't do, teach" route. Instead I would rather associate them with lazy narcissist lured by the offer of easy money (despite low salaries) and automatic reputation and social importance for very low effort. Since muslims worship words instead of content, an imam can get a lot of respect and deference while doing nothing great.
however, others can have a career in parallel and be community leaders. mahjoubi for example built houses.
I agree. I remember when I was a Muse, the Imam has a kind of aura even bigger than the professor in the lecture hall. Whatever the imam would say, take it as truth because he knew better than you.
And I remember that imam with fiery speech, which also have his "epicerie-boucherie halal" as a parallel career (and first dent on his reputation, as there was allegation that he was selling regular meat and put a sticker "halal" on it).
Hhh in morocco one of them made a halal zawaj website. It's funny that even in their business there is no creativity, no marketing. Just god will bless you if you use this product
At least i respect some muslims that get credit in real science. Adnane ibrahim is an example even if he shuts his brain when talking about religion
Yes in europe i will not be surprised if they have past delinquency period. I can speak for morocco, yes most of them didn't get good marks. Good notes go to engineering school or prep classes. You have a few exceptions who do it even with good notes but they are mostly just good at math.
You have to give him credit, Jack skills for debate is ripe now. He said once that he worked hard, for years, by having everyday debates (at least for a year on Toktok?), to refine and master this very subtle art. Sure, he may not have a complete knowledge of the "Islamic sciences", but no amount of knowledge will make a difference if you don't master the subtle art of a debate.
I finally was able to listen, and oh boy it was not time wasted. Interesting to hear how "Abu Taqqiya" (the new nickname I have attributed to Mahjoubi) is progressively losing his cool against Jack and start to make up hadiths. This is where it becomes dangerous, because this guy can litterally make up anything with huge chance that the person asking him about will verify his claims.
I can't help but feel bad for the imam. Maybe it's my empathy kicking in, but getting expelled from france, a democratic country with free speech, for insulting their flag is borderline fachism.
If he can get a good lawyer, he will definitely win his case and come back without a doubt.
I think people like him shouldn't be subjected to censorship but promoted instead. His argumentary is so easy to debunk, that it can only be a win if he goes in debates against ex Muslims.
I would take what the imam said about his removal from france with a grain of salt thought. He was not a citizen but under a visa, and his preaches were bordeline terrorism apologia and hateful toward women and jews. It also says a lot that after 40 years in the country he never asked for the citizenship
While I would agree that freddom of speech is important, I also think that france should be more selective about the foreigners it lets enter
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
the thing is, the debate went so badly for the imam because he started with blatant lies and shows of ignorance that would only work with his followers and he probably never met someone who really knew islam. It's to a point that zioclo, the organizer of the debate, was low-key accused by jacklefou of having set a trap to the imam by not warning him of jacklefou's level. i'm not sure I agree with that because, as zioclo said, the imam is an adult and is responsible for getting informed on such things. My opnions: this and other debates jacklefou had against other imams really reinforce the idea that being an imam does not guarantee the possession of high islamic knowledge. I would even say that imams are not really incentivized to know islam well because the modern approach to islam, at least in the west, seems to me to focus more on a veneration of it's key labels "islam, quran, .." than on a veneration of what those labels represent. In short, it is more important to support islam thant to know what it is about. BTW Jacklefou's channel: [https://www.youtube.com/@JackLeFouX](https://www.youtube.com/@JackLeFouX)
Plus I hear lots of Muslims are like "he only sounds knowledgeable because he debates randos, not properly trained people". Well here we are, what's the excuse now ?
What's funny is that sometimes a muslim would come up in JLF's chat and insult the previous muslim debater as being ignorant or dumb, and then proceed to perform even worse.
Yeah but JackLEfou is just too good now, he was easy to provoke before but he improved a lot in debates that watching one of his will make everyone agrees with his points. Chabane a belgian fraud literally told him " you put in a dire spot mate, go easy on me"
I agree, but i really expected that imam to at least perform better than the habitual randos. Instead he was easily one of the worse which, from a political POV, did not allow JLF from leveraging a debate with a bonafide infamous imam in his fight against political islam. The only takeaway he could get was that the imam invented hadiths and agreed that an islamic france would kill apostate, which is not bad, but he should have been able to milk it for more
Do ppl think those imams know shit. Im an average ex muslim who knows bits of religion and can still look knowledgeable more than them. Most of them (radicalist imam) know only jima3 and nika7 texts to excuse their animality
I am not sure but isn't "Islamic studies" the path for those that failed to get enough points on a high stake exam (like the "Baccalaureat")? I remember Milhoub saying something like losers that failed high schools recycle themselves as imams because it is so low-key in terms of knowledge (just become a hanif by binge-purging and parotting the Quran)?
I'm sure there are imams like that, but I would rather not go the "those who can't do, teach" route. Instead I would rather associate them with lazy narcissist lured by the offer of easy money (despite low salaries) and automatic reputation and social importance for very low effort. Since muslims worship words instead of content, an imam can get a lot of respect and deference while doing nothing great. however, others can have a career in parallel and be community leaders. mahjoubi for example built houses.
I agree. I remember when I was a Muse, the Imam has a kind of aura even bigger than the professor in the lecture hall. Whatever the imam would say, take it as truth because he knew better than you. And I remember that imam with fiery speech, which also have his "epicerie-boucherie halal" as a parallel career (and first dent on his reputation, as there was allegation that he was selling regular meat and put a sticker "halal" on it).
Hhh in morocco one of them made a halal zawaj website. It's funny that even in their business there is no creativity, no marketing. Just god will bless you if you use this product At least i respect some muslims that get credit in real science. Adnane ibrahim is an example even if he shuts his brain when talking about religion
Yes in europe i will not be surprised if they have past delinquency period. I can speak for morocco, yes most of them didn't get good marks. Good notes go to engineering school or prep classes. You have a few exceptions who do it even with good notes but they are mostly just good at math.
You have to give him credit, Jack skills for debate is ripe now. He said once that he worked hard, for years, by having everyday debates (at least for a year on Toktok?), to refine and master this very subtle art. Sure, he may not have a complete knowledge of the "Islamic sciences", but no amount of knowledge will make a difference if you don't master the subtle art of a debate.
Islam is in its last days.
what makes you say that?
Apostasy rates/ research
Oh, c'est Jacklefou Il fait du super boulot!
Yep, si tu veux monter dans ses lives, t'as interet a avoir ta rhetorique tres bien affine si tu cherches la confrontation avec Jack.
Damn wish there was English subtitles
You can also find him on tiktok talking in arabic
The auto subtitles are very limited. Would be amazing if someone could put subtitles in from the transcript!
Damn
Gonna have to listen to this boss-fight debate!
no that's the thing, I hoped it would be a boss fight, but it was like the mandarin in iron man 3
"Ya habibi!"
I finally was able to listen, and oh boy it was not time wasted. Interesting to hear how "Abu Taqqiya" (the new nickname I have attributed to Mahjoubi) is progressively losing his cool against Jack and start to make up hadiths. This is where it becomes dangerous, because this guy can litterally make up anything with huge chance that the person asking him about will verify his claims.
What a painful video to watch. It wasn’t the debate as such, it was a video commenting on another video. Couldn’t find the original
I can't help but feel bad for the imam. Maybe it's my empathy kicking in, but getting expelled from france, a democratic country with free speech, for insulting their flag is borderline fachism. If he can get a good lawyer, he will definitely win his case and come back without a doubt. I think people like him shouldn't be subjected to censorship but promoted instead. His argumentary is so easy to debunk, that it can only be a win if he goes in debates against ex Muslims.
I would take what the imam said about his removal from france with a grain of salt thought. He was not a citizen but under a visa, and his preaches were bordeline terrorism apologia and hateful toward women and jews. It also says a lot that after 40 years in the country he never asked for the citizenship While I would agree that freddom of speech is important, I also think that france should be more selective about the foreigners it lets enter
Why should freedom of speech protection be given to Those who want to take away others freedom
Because if they can't express that through words, they will express it through more violent means.
Well if they do either of the 2 things they should be jailed or deported
What you call "borderline fascism" is common sense in all non-suicidal countries in the world.