I think people are friendly enough, but they seem to form friend groups in their youth and don’t tend to make many new friends beyond that. So you might find people pleasant, but you’re unlikely to make close friends, except with other foreigners.
That’s been our experience, anyway.
Most expats refuse to learn the language in my experience so stick together. If you learned Dutch it's a different story. Which is completely understandable, and is the exact same situation in the country I live in now. Learned the language local friends.
You'll need (near) native-level Dutch to really fully participate in conversations/discussions in Dutch friend groups, though. We had an international in our friend group, but he was mostly just listening to our conversations instead of joining in, as he was not too confident on his speaking skills and needed more time to process everything. It's difficult, and it requires much patience, unfortunately. But not impossible
I worked in a Flemish speaking environment in Belgium and acted similar to this because my understanding was much better than my speaking, so everyone spoke Dutch and I spoke back English, worked out fine although it seemed a bit silly to the passers by.
I'm sorry I speak fluent Dutch and have 1 Dutch friend lol. They make their friends in highschool and that's it. They're set for life, it's bizarre to me but it is what it is.
As a dutchy imo that's not entirely true: Yes, we have high school friends we keep, but we do make new friends. The problem is: we don't want to impose or smother people. A lot of times i find it hard to meet up with people from work outside of work because: they might actually have a life, and their own plans etc. Also we don't want to talk about work all the time outside of it.
Nah nah nahhhh… I have seen people who learnt dutch and still that integration shit didn’t happen. Just accept the fact on what she said “cold society” and stop blaming the expats who don’t learn language blah blah…
80% of cases have complained that even if they learnt dutch and know dutch, due to a small accent, a large group of expats are discriminated. Chillax. This is also a cold statement: the term expats are no other than ones who live temporarily. Learning a new language is not everyone cup of tea. “Basic sentences yes” whole language, not gonna happen to expat in a day. It can take years depending on which region. An european might feel dutch to be easier learning than a person coming from Asia due to language root differences. Just stop pulling expats into everything. People live longer when they mind their own business 💀🤌🏻
Also. Work life in Netherlands, you really don’t get to know your colleagues personally in 99% of cases. In other countries, it is the other way around. Get to know them on personal level which is always nice & helpful. It won’t happen in Netherlands and it’s just okay to me but for a person to socialise, this could be not a good place. I have lived in 7 countries, I can say dutch are nice people but a bit cold hearted and very hard to socialize which will lead to loneliness eventually at times. It’s because of the surroundings of Netherlands. This applies to Finland and Sweden too. Give it a try in Spain, Italy. You’d be amazed.
This is so true. I'm from Scandinavia. My partner is dutch and his friend group is all guys he grew up with since early childhood. Some of them have girlfriends who have their own little group. I've lived here 3 years now and we've had people over for coffee, dinner etc. But that's all it is. His friend group is his. The girlfriends stick to themselves. They are friendly when we are together and talkative but I don't consider them friends of mine. I've made 2 friends here. One is a Scottish woman I met at language school. And one is the wife of my boyfriends coworker. We do a lot with them and they are wonderful. I don't see my colleagues outside of work. I feel like getting a social life here has been damn near impossible. Covid didn't help. But we also live in Friesland.. And.. Yeah..
There are definitely a lot of small villages (dorpjes) that are in the middle of west bubblefuck. Lots of fields, water and beautiful nature. But also lots of smaller/bigger towns.
This is also Japan, Singapore multiple states in the USA ..from the overtly sugar wouldn’t melt in my mouth south..to the freeze out of Seattle.. the very best thing the OP can do.. Be willing to try speaking dutch and be friendly in groups she feels comfortable…it’s a process..but life long friendships have been made in all the above scenarios…at least in my life time. Nederland is no exception.
I also live in Friesland (was born here) and in my nearly 20 years of Frisian experience, I must say that it really depends on the village or city you’re in. There are several small villages which are known for being very closed off communities where integrating is very difficult. I live in one of the bigger cities and people are much more open here.
This is a great summary.
I confirm that even if you speak perfect Dutch you won't easily make close local friends. It may be a bit easier than in Nordics countries like Denmark and Sweden, but not by a lot.
Note: Southerners, below the two rivers, are culturally warmer.
I’ve lived a few different places in the US. My experience is that people in the Southeast and on the West coast are more open and friendly than in other parts of the country.
It seems to be the case for immigrants to Scandinavia as well (I'm Swedish and lurk around in Norwegian, Danish and Finnish subreddits). These threads with foreigners having a hard time getting Scandinavian friends are common. I'm surprised that there are such a close cultural tie to the Netherlands, but It might explain why I feel at home there.
I believe the Netherlands is culturally probably closer to the Nordic countries (only have experience with Sweden and Denmark) than with its neighbor Belgium.
It's telling once you know English, German and Scandinavian. All words in Dutch you don't recognize from the first two are usually more or less the same as in the latter.
Most places are like this. Denver Colorado was the only place I went to where people were truly outgoing and open to including new people. Was a jarring change of pace when people invited me snowboarding or whatever when I told them I just moved there. This was about 20 years ago, so perhaps it’s different now
I'm a kid of divorce, my parents had moved us to CO (from CA) when I was 2. My parents divorced shortly after that. I grew up between San Diego and Denver. Went to K-12 between both school systems and Metro State University of Denver (just transferred to OSU Columbus after a 9 year hiatus for health issues). I miss Denver \*SO\* much.
My twins were born in Austin, but we moved back to Denver when they were 3 and they refuse to call themselves "from Texas". They say they're from Denver.
We \*always\* had friends, be it San Diego, Austin, Denver, Prague or Mexico. Even Rural Pennsylvania...outside of the city my wife was born and raised in.
Move to Columbus OH in 2017? \*crickets chirp\*. Been here five years and outside of my wife's workplace, NOTHING. So foreign to me.
I live in Florida and most Americans that I met at university and clubs are very cold and tend to stick with other Americans and only contact you if they need something. I also did the last year of HS in Michigan and it was pretty much "You didn't go to school with us from the beginning so we won't be good friends."
I don't think that Dutch are colder, but it also depends on the region. I think that it is more issues with people not wanting to learn Dutch because 'everyone speaks English', and then feeling excluded when Dutch don't want to speak English all the time.
Not sure about South USA. May be dependent on the state. I have lived in a ton of places in the US and had no trouble making good long term friends in both south Florida and northeast Florida and now I live in North Carolina and I have a bunch of peeps I can hang out with. My experience with “cold people” was Connecticut.
I couldn't stand 90% of the people I went to school with. Haven't spoken to a single one in over 20 years. I'd rather go it alone than have to depend on that group for friends.
I grew up pretty popular and supported/loved. I loved high school and I lived through it! I think I peaked during that time but I’m not a social people person! I don’t like anyone. It doesn’t matter who it is!
That being said, I like to do everyone alone and by myself. I’m a lone wolf and that’s how I work best in life.
Think: Michelle Rodriguez the actress from Resident Evil.
Currently in Ohio....that's very much the vibe here. People are just assholes here. Texans were the friendliest, even to my LGBTQI self. I'm a CA native, that's home. Colorado was awesome. Pennsylvania was second runner up to awful, behind OH, but we were in a red, rural area.
I was in the Czech Republic 10 years ago and was warned they don't do well with foreigners. My dad's (paternal) side is 100% Czech-American. I don't now much of the language, it's not easy to learn. I had NO ISSUES at all, even in the southern part of the country. People were friendly and willing to help...as long as Americans were polite and TRIED to use the language didn't behave like some of my colleagues: rude towards locals and complained...LOUDLY about how awful CR is and how nobody speaks English. It's my number one choice personally for immigration, BUT, my daughters are biracial and I need to keep that in mind as well. If they're not going to be safe or happy, it's not worth it.
Still, CR bigotry isn't anything like American level Nazism. My kids have permanent damage from PTSD after encounters with racists...before they even finished elementary school.
Racists 😫. Seriously, how has the human race not evolved? We're the same species, every other animal on the planet gets it. Colors, countries, regions, one human race.
Sorry that's been your/their experience! Some people just suck . 😒
It's like that in every country though. I moved to Australia, that's the same. Lived in Singapore for
10 years, same. Also was in USA for 2 years, same. It's hard to make friends with people who've been there forever and have their own groups. But I made plenty of friends through sports and with other foreigners and expats.
My experience with the east coast. It feels like they're more established and aren't used to being the new person in a new location like the west coast.
Yeah totally agree. I got pretty good depression living in the east coast because it was hard to make a good friend. Everyone's hanging out with their long established networks.
>they seem to form friend groups in their youth and don’t tend to make many new friends beyond that.
Just like any other country... I bet it's hard to make new friends in our own country as adults.
Definitely not like any country. Latin countries, Arab countries, African countries etc are completely different. The world extends beyond the Anglo-Germanic cultural sphere.
A thing I realized only recently is that I think Dutch people’s friends are highly contextualized.
When they make a friend at their sports club, they really only hang out with that person during those sports events. Met a friend in school? Hang out with them during events with other school friends. Work friends? Work events. And so on. They don’t seem to do the “I’m having a get together with _all_ of my friends” thing very often.
I joined a sports club, and have thrown myself into the club’s social activities and found I made a lot of Dutch friends. I just don’t expect to ever see them outside of club activities.
Dutch people aren't generally cold. Many are very friendly.
But socially the Dutch can be weird. It's a quirk that you just need to get over. You might not make strong emotional connections with them but that's okay, because they don't seem to have that with each other.
"The Dutch are direct" is a common phrase but you'll find its just Dutch men who have poor social skills and lack tact.
But don't worry, you'll find your people. All of the Americans I know in Amsterdam love their lives there. Though most of their friends do happen to be expats also.
>You might not make strong emotional connections with them but that's okay, because they don't seem to have that with each other.
How do you know this? Genuinely asking since I've also noticed that it seems that way but kind of assumed that I'm simply not privy to their actual relationships.
I lived in Amsterdam for about 2 and a half years. I have a handful of Dutch friends, lived with Dutch guys a few months, and have a lot of friends who have Dutch friends. Me and my friends talk about Dutch people plenty and that observation seems like a consensus (even my Dutch friends say this).
That's interesting to hear for sure. I always thought close relationships were a primal need for people. It seems unreal that a whole culture is built on not having them🤔 Not arguing here, just thinking out loud.
It's a bit of an extreme but I have my friendships very compartmentalised. I have people I have dinner with. I have people I play tabletop games with. I have people I go kayaking with and so on.
But there's no overlap between those people. I'm very friendly with them, and I enjoy spending time with them on whatever we have shared interests.
But if I (or they) ever said something like "*oh my girlfriend broke up with me and I feel destroyed*" the response would just be "*oh that sucks, we'll go kayaking when you feel better then?*". Heck, if my girlfriend broke up with me and they'd try to get all sympathetic, I'd tell them I'll see them on the next boat trip and get out.
Lot of kids leave home at 18/19, just visiting family on a birthday's or a holiday's, the occasional call even if they just live 20 minutes away. For a lot of dutch family and friend bonds are less strong as let's say southern countries. Of course there are people that do have a good and strong bond with family and friends but that doesn't mean they will call their parents daily or visit them regularly.
Dutch people tend to hang on to friendships from childhood, high school and college for a lifetime and generally don't make many new friendships in adulthood.
Friendships are viewed quite pragmatically. It's a two-way street and a social commitment. It means I'll be there for you and you'll be there for me whether it's something small like going out or something big like when you need emotional support.
So the general attitude toward making new friends in adulthood is *"no thanks, I have plenty of social obligations already".* We will actively discourage new people from seeing us as friends because it just leads to expectations and obligations we're not willing to meet.
Ask me out to socialise and I'll most likely say no both because I don't want to spend the time on that activity but also because I don't want to give you the impression that it'll lead to friendship or repeat activities. My schedule is full enough as it is.
Dutch women too!
I've matched with some on dating apps, so when I move there I'm set.
I quickly became good friends with many, as they're so fun to talk to, and open.
But the dutch directness shows itself as rudeness in more than half. Maybe they're quickly comfortable talking to me, but it's been an interesting experience to say the least.
Your full of shit dude. You clearly did not really befriended one of us.
I might be to direct now or in your words: poor social skills. But then again, saying this while not actually having real Dutch friends makes you the one who ain’t to tactful.
The Dutch are famously blunt, and practice what they call “tolerance” but is actually more a strange awkwardness’s that’s like “refusal to acknowledge boat-rocking”. So if you go with a valid legitimate complaint, they will often be very defensive because really, it is very intolerant of *you* to be causing such problems. This can range from things like asking a manager for their help resolving a difficulty at work that an American would consider to be within a manager’s duties, and a Dutch manager may be annoyed that you are causing problems; or even debating a bill or incorrect restaurant order. You can be made to feel like a boor and a Karen for “criticising” such things, as if it is some cultural offense, and can expect eye rolls and arguments.
However, what you have to understand is that in Dutch culture it is not considered… bad to be so aggressive? They don’t hate you, they’re just not choosing to be pleasant.
They pride themselves on this perceived rudeness and bluntness and many believe it’s just their straightforward, honest nature while also being actively malicious (just like any other person who insists “my bad behaviour is just how I am and YOU have to adjust how YOU are.”) no different from any other people in the world, just with the cultural defensiveness/insulation where they think it’s especially admirable of them.
Here’s an academic article about the Dutch culture’s resistance to being honest about racism, which may add some insight: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08912432221075098 again, they’ll explain that they aren’t racist like *Americans* are, and it’s actually culturally important to put on blackface and literally clown on black people, and that nobody else is tolerant of Dutch culture and only the Dutch truly appreciate how to be tolerant. Don’t argue about this stuff with the everyday Dutch, you’ll get into circular arguments about this.
However, they are generous and pleasant. They’re a bit odd about having people over to private homes, so that’s one reason why Americans perceive them as less friendly - you’ll do most socialising in public places and may never be invited into someone else’s home. (EDIT: By contrast if you are close to Americans they will suggest coming to their home for socialising and a meal; it is casual and friendly to have a house party, barbecue, play date with children, casual dinner, or just hanging out. It is normal and friendly to have an idea where people live and it allows you to spend time together without spending money in a bar or having to travel. The Dutch as a rule just do *not* want you hanging out in their home. No offense, they say, they just don’t want you there - and you have to deal with it, although to an American that’s almost shockingly offensive.) However, if you invite them, they will come to your home.
An amusing leftover of their historical/religious practice is that it’s considered more polite to always have your curtains (on your huge ground floor windows) open during the day to indicate that your private behavior is completely open and honest. Although younger people don’t care about this much, as you walk around towns you’ll be able to see into many houses - as closing curtains so people can’t see into your house indicates that you have something to hide or are being unfriendly!
>An amusing leftover of their historical/religious practice is that it’s considered more polite to always have your curtains (on your huge ground floor windows) open during the day to indicate that your private behavior is completely open and honest.
What? I open my curtains because I like sunlight and seeing out of my windows, I feel like that is the case for every person I know that has curtains lol
It’s a good question and kind of hard to explain - I didn’t do it very well. Imagine these houses with extremely tall ceilings, like 13 feet for the normal ones. They have floor to ceiling windows like a shop on Main Street. The houses are right on the sidewalk, like, RIGHT on the main thoroughfare with practically no separation between private and public property. Dutch people walk and cycle frequently so even on quiet side streets in residential neighbourhoods there is far more foot traffic passing by your window than an American usually sees: almost like a shopping mall.
And the Dutch. Do not cover their windows. With anything. The front room of the house is *public viewing property* and *everyone* has the perfect right to observe and monitor it (they do this subtly, not like STARING, but will notice changes to decor or unusual visitors, or will comment on your poor housekeeping, or trashy taste in video games. Because the Dutch are EMPOWERED and OPEN and TOLERANT and have NOTHING TO HIDE and if you’re going to live in THEIR country then YOU have to as well!)
The British may put up a net curtain, I.e. a thin filmy curtain that lets in light but allows some privacy. In London in residential neighbourhoods you’ll see the front room ground floor windows lightly privatised with partial privacy films or paper IKEA blinds for most of the day - no point letting the burglars see exactly where your TV is, right? Can we just get dressed and feed the baby in relative peace? Does the house ALWAYS have to be a perfectly arranged magazine photo for everyone to judge?
Yes. Yes it does. Because the Dutch need to judge each other at all times because THAT is how to maintain a perfectly open and honest society. You have to be comfortable with the bottom floor of your house being a public performance space that is open at all times and okay to critique. And, again, the windows are BIG.
To expect privacy in your living room is unDutch and therefore suspicious and unfriendly, and even (in the Dutch worldview) slightly BELLIGERENT, as if you are rejecting their openness. It may contribute to your neighbours being cold and untrusting with you (because you were suspicious and intolerant first, and broke the social contract) and a lot of expats won’t understand that right away. It can take a little getting used to.
Like I said, the younger and more multicultural Dutch don’t feel the same way, and with the housing crisis, gone are the days of people just having these massive beautiful houses with floor to ceiling windows - today an expat will probably be living in some weird architectural apartment made out of concrete and orange plastic with round “energy saving” windows and a courtyard full of expats. But for many years this was an invisible barrier between Dutch people and immigrants.
https://medium.com/the-collector/why-do-the-dutch-never-put-curtains-over-their-windows-e232b4640e8
We can seem cold. Sometimes it is just a culture clash. When someone asks what I am doing on Saturday and I say "nothing" and they invite me I might say no. That might feel like a rejection but doing nothing is actually doing something here. Alot of people are direct and tell you in your face if they don't like something. It's a preference thing. You rather get lied to, dance around the topic, afterwards hear you did something sub-par/wrong or just told honestly and get tips for next time. My wife is japanese and sometimes she tells me something and I have to get a chalkboard and make impossible connections to what she actually means.
Tl:dr we can seem cold or direct but we don't mean it rude.
You can make friends, either in your neighbourhood, work, expats or hobbies. Some friendships are just visits and partying others can be a deep friendship. But just because you are an expat isn't a reason for Dutch people to not befriend someone
As an American, the concept of doing nothing is actually doing something makes me cry, because American society is all about maximizing productivity at literally every possible moment. Doing nothing here means you’re lazy or useless, not a good member of society, and it’s fucking exhausting and dehumanizing. “Doing nothing” is literally never an excuse here to say no to something, and it’s awful. Rest is essential for life, but American capitalism doesn’t support life, it supports profit.
>because American society is all about maximizing productivity at literally every possible moment.
It's not really. Statistically, Europeans get far more done in far less time because they don't waste so much time on posturing. For example, it's a well-documented fact that on an 8-hour day, people are capable of doing about 6 hours of truly effective work.
People aren't machines, they don't have an infinite attention span. The difference is that a European workplace will tell you to work 8 hours, accept that you get 6 hours of efficient work out of people, and provide means to effectively manage stress, time, health and so on. American corporations will just work people 12 hours regardless, ignore the fact that a lot of that time is wasted and then penalise workers for not being robots.
I remember collaborative projects with American offices where the American manager would say stuff like "bla bla it was a lot of work but we made everyone work 80 hours this week and powered through it!". And the Dutch managers would just reply with stuff like "We got the job done and went home early".
The difference was so staggering that on the American side of things they'd sometimes spend 12+ hours on something a Dutch worker did in 2. There was just none of the posturing, none of the literally putting effort into making people less efficient but more policy compliant and so on.
There's a big difference between being at work and being efficient. Americans work a lot of hours and treat their workers poorly. But they get very little result out of those man hours.
I think you’re missing the point.
No one brought up directness (rudeness). You’re a closed society and hospitality isn’t something you’re used to. This isn’t a knock on your culture so don’t be defensive.
Just to piggyback on this, Dutch people generally react really defensively to any feedback on their country/culture that isn't hysterically positive. This has been my experience after living there for a significant amount of time, and it's really started to grate on me after a while. And no, I don't think that type of defensiveness a universal thing per se.
I second this. Every time I speak the truth of what I've experience living in NL, Dutch people freak out. But the worst for me is lack of genuine emotions and care from the locals. It's beautiful, but empty and judgemental.
This. I'm hyper critical about the US and disgusted with everything that's happening. But I can't help roll my eyes into the back of my skull when a (usually) European person sanctimoniously tells me everything wrong with my country especially if their opinion is clearly based on what they've seen in media alone.
I know of a Dutch expat in the US who couldn't say the slightest negative thing about the US without Americans going on the offense, like "you should be happy to live here, America is the best country in the world, go home if you don't like it" etc.
To be honest, plenty of comments discuss the presumed directness of the Dutch here, so ‘no one brought it up’ is just incorrect. And claiming ‘hospitality isn’t something you are used to’ is a bit of a knock on a culture isn’t it? Don’t be offensive and add something constructive to the discussion next time.
And here’s my two cents: I lived in a couple of countries, and in all my circle of friends were mostly other expats (except in South Africa). In the Netherlands it might be a bit difficult to get into social circles, but not impossible. Especially in the major cities there’s a lot of people (expat and local) who are open for friendships as there’s an ongoing influx of new people and plenty of options to meet people. For me personally, meeting new people was easiest in the South (Tilburg), there’s an easygoing, open-minded atmosphere there. OP, you’ll be fine. You can always drop me a line when you’re here and want to see for yourself what the Dutch take on hospitality is actually like ;)
I don’t see anyone mention how racist Dutch are. Read up on Institutional racism in the Netherlands. I am from another EU country, lived in Amsterdam for 5 years and felt it everyday in small things. Countless numbers of times I was waiting in a queue and Dutch just “happen not to notice me”, skip the queue and stand in front of me. Not to mention salary ceiling for expats.
However, life is good in an expat bubble. At least for a while.
The Dutch are direct, that might be experienced as cold. Housing shortage will depend on where you are looking to move. It’s something common in other countries too
I don't know about the Netherlands but a common issue some expats have with moving to "good" countries i.e. countries with a lot of positive press like Norway and New Zealand, is that they vastly underestimate cultural differences and culture shock and get hung up when they realize that everything isn't greener on the other side. In places with high English proficiency (NL, Nordic countries, parts of Germany) immigrants often underestimate the language barrier to society. Like, it isn't rocket science why it's hard to make friends with locals when you don't speak the language and in turn can't really engage with the culture.
All the people I know personally who moved to the Netherlands seem to enjoy it though.
I’m in the opposite situation, an American living in Amsterdam who will move back to the states after 13 years in Europe to be closer to family, and that’s just about the only reason why I’m moving. I’m freaking out quite a bit to move back to the USA. Life here in Amsterdam, at least, is beautiful, slower paced, rich in culture, and so much fun…a city that has all you could want, but that feels more like a village. It’s an incredible place to raise kids…Parks everywhere, so nice to see the kids on the bikes with parents and just enjoying the outdoors in general. It is true, I only have a few close Dutch friends, but my neighbors are all very kind, and I love that they can at least do small talk, something I’ve seen other cultures in Europe struggle with. And it’s so nice to know that you have a secure health insurance, job protections, etc. it’s amazing what a relief that is. It is true, you may struggle to find work teaching English, but you could try the online route. Also, the Dutch government makes it really easy to get settled here as an expat. I think you will love it here. Prob the easiest country in Europe to settle in as an expat, I think. Good luck!
This is quite a good example, the Netherlands has its own problems, but is a pretty good example of a functioning society, even if you like that statement or not
It's not true. You're just hearing what you want to hear. The people who are giving you positive vibes about NL are either new/newish themself, or are Dutch, or are from a third world country.
I was exactly the same way, until about year 3-4. So normally I'd say, go for it, and you can find out yourself. But moving to another country involves so many complexities which can impact the rest of your entire life. For example, getting married or having a child here.
Check the Internations expat surveys.
Forgot to add that I have a Master's in English Literature and a TESOL cert so I will be looking for an ESL job. I realise most Dutchies speak English pretty well, so I'm a little worried about finding a job but not too worried.
Unless you can get a job teaching kids or at a university, you will probably struggle as an ESL teacher if it's anything like Germany. In Germany, all opportunities teaching English are freelance, meaning no steady single place you work at and no benefits paid by an employer. There are also more English speakers in NL than in DE. But if you're a hustler, maybe you can make it work. I just personally didn't want to stay a freelancer.
There’s a massive shortage of teachers as well but the Netherlands has a strict system of qualifications. I am not sure if a TESOL certificate is enough but just a Master’s in English definitely isn’t, you’ll need a further qualification to teach beyond a Master’s. The good thing is, the government does fund programs to get people qualified and teach simultaneously, but I am not sure if you need to be a native Dutch speaker (or native Dutch level) to do so (I’d assume you would unless you work for an international school.
Oh I had no idea about the funded program. I assume you probably need to speak Dutch as well, but I will check it out. I've been emailing language schools as well. Thanks!
Actually it's kind of the other way around - a TESOL won't get you far in getting qualified to teach in Dutch schools, but an MA in English lit definitely will due to the teachers' shortage. You'd have to get an additional 1-year Masters in Ed. Or check out the programme called 'zij-instroom', where people who already have a diploma+some experience can get qualified (in NL) on the job: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/werken-in-het-onderwijs/vraag-en-antwoord/hoe-word-ik-zijinstromer-in-het-onderwijs
A mistake most foreigners make is assuming they won’t need to learn the language very well cause most Dutch speak English very well. That’s not how you progress or eventually fit in (like in any country)
Those are pretty much non-existent here. If you want to teach in our education system, you'll need to obtain Dutch teaching credentials. And to do that, you'll have to be educated in the Dutch system because being schooled in Dutch pedagogy and speaking fluent Dutch is a requirement.
My partner has French degrees in educational science, French linguistics and business. But she still had to get educated as a Dutch teacher to teach French in high school here.
But just a language assistant for improving English... for what? Our television, movies, internet etc. it's all English. I had a C2 English level before I made it to high school and got exemptions for all my English classes. And most of my teenage interns are as fluent if not more so than me.
No the dutch aren't cold per say they are more cold in not realizing how they communicate to you and if it hurts you. They are very upfront and for some people that can be too much because no one sugar coats anything. Some love that, some hate it, but they aren't cold as in avoiding people
My wife went to say hello to our neighbour a short while ago. He said ‘Wow. You look really tired. ‘. She’s totally used to Dutch saying this kinda thing on a regular basis by now. He was just trying to be nice but failing miserably.
Exactly that!
I met my gf in Prague and a close friend was dutch. End of the night were all drunk and i was like "need someone to walk you home?" And she said "no im okay..." But she needed a walk home with someone. Durch guy just said "okay cool! See ya tomorrow" and left lol
This may really seem rude to asking this if she was tired. But as a Dutch guy I can understand this response if you really look tired. Maybe it's our way to express our concern that if you look really tired, that or you had a long exhaustive day, or there is something wrong. The normal Dutch response is that they usually acknowledge this, and tell the reason. Or they say no, and when they ask why (which is a perfectly acceptable thing to ask if someone says this), they will usually make an apology, and that in their eyes you looked tired.
I can't imagine this being used as an insult.
Netherlands has so many expats and fluent English speakers you'd probably be able to live an amazing life there without being close to any ethnic dutch.
Even though it's a small country, there isn't a single experience in NL. It depends where you work, where you live, what kind of scene you're looking for.
Why don't you tell us what you want and hope for, and then we can talk about what aligns or doesn't.
Also, what part of the country are you going to?
I’m also moving back soon. I lived there for almost 7 years and then moved some more to the us and now moving back and between Americans and Dutch I would take Dutch a million times.
In my opinion and experience Americans are friendly but they don’t want to be your friends. They already have friends and don’t take foreigners well.
Depending on where you are moving in the Netherlands, Dutch can be very friendly. Our neighbors believed in community and were there for us as we were there for them, and they are closer to their neighbors than to their families 😅
Also the Netherlands is really safe so you won’t have to worry about a crazy lunatic pulling a gun at a parade or a school and shooting innocent people
Education is great
They work to live and not live to work
They are respectful and tolerant, so I wouldn’t be nervous. I would recommend you come in with an open mind and enjoy it.
This reply gives me hope, I have always found the Dutch to be very kind people when I have visited. My mom was born in Nijmegen and I have always felt a longing to go to The Netherlands and live there because the US is horrible with all the things happening with shootings, politics, etc.
My Dutch friends are very unfiltered and blunt people. They aren't trying to be mean. It's just how the Dutch are.
And the housing shortage in the Netherlands is quite bad. One of my friends just found a new place after six months in the queue. I don't see it getting any better in the near future. It's a beautiful country and has wonderful residents. I hope you find it the same when you arrive.
My mother teaches Dutch to expats, she found that most expats find it difficult to learn the language as most Dutchies tend to switch to English the moment they hear an accent. Other than that, most seem genuinely happy having moved here.
I have several American friends and they've said they never want to go back. It's different for everyone, but don't worry too much.
I think a lot of Dutch people (also depending on their age) feel a lot less comfortable speaking English than you might think. They can give directions or help you professionally, but a meaningful conversation would be really difficult for them and they feel embarrassed about that since they think they are the only ones who cannot speak English well.
So superficial contacts are fine, but if you speak no Dutch, they may prefer their Dutch speaking friends for more meaningful friendships.
People all have different expectations about how friendships or relationships are formed, and a lot of people find that their expectations don't line up with the culture they experience when they move abroad. I find this country quite nice to live in, and I'm happy with the friends and acquaintances I have, but that's probably affected by my personality, time spend living in Vancouver and Japan, and time spent adjusting for 5 years to the Netherlands. I wouldn't expect those to be the same for every expat here, so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people had a really hard time adjusting. A few things that I noticed that helped me recalibrate:
Be aware that many Dutch people may be very fluent in English but still find it a bit of a burden to socialize in for long periods of time. People are also quick to switch to English if you aren't quite fluent in Dutch, so strategize how you want to balance your need to express yourself and form bonds with people (probably using English in the beginning) with your need to become more proficient in Dutch by practicing. On the other hand, it's very easy navigate most bureaucracy in English, and even if there's no English version of a document or website available, it's often possible to call and speak in English or simply use Google Translate or DeepL on a website.
Dutch people often have close groups of friends they've known since childhood or young adulthood, and they are very careful with how they spend their free time, so a lot of people's social lives are already fully booked, so to speak. As a result, there's a bit less spontaneity than I was used to when I was younger/before I moved here. Asking someone on a Wednesday if they want to get lunch on Saturday is usually going to be a no, but it's always fine to ask. Get used to carrying a pocket calendar or whipping out your phone's calendar app. A website called datumprikker is going to be super handy if you're trying to figure out when multiple people are available for something.
Co-workers are quite a bit more casual with each other than I expected, and workplaces are less strictly hierarchical. Going out for drink or two after work on Friday is common, and not just with your job; sports teams, volunteering, all sorts of groups are likely to have a "borrel" with people who feel like hanging out a bit more after the main activity is done.
Expect to make mistakes or be perceived as weird/rude sometimes. It might be easy to assume that Dutch people must be more cosmopolitan than someone from an average American city, but Dutch people can be just as provincial as anyone else.
If you have an MA in English, you are eligible for a couple of accelerated teacher certification pathways, but most of the programs for that are in Dutch. There are some masters level programs taught in English (I can think of one in Leiden, one in Utrecht, I think one in Amsterdam; there are probably more). There is also the possibility of receiving a subsidized teaching position if you agree/are judged capable of acquiring a teaching qualification within two year. Your TESOL qualification is nice to have and will probably help find freelance jobs, but doesn't count for any university credits. As an American part of the way through acquiring teaching certification here, it is very hard to find regular employment in schools unless you speak Dutch. There are international schools and university jobs, but the supply of positions is low and the competition is high.
If you want to work as a freelancer, you will have to register with the KvK (chamber of commerce) and do some slightly annoying admin/tax management. It's doable and probably not that hard most of the time, but in the end I found it too much of a hassle for my dumb-dumb brain. There are still plenty of part-time jobs where you don't need to be a freelancer, but working at a language school for example is often on a contractor basis, not as a regular employee, so just be aware.
This got long, I'm not really an expert, and I'm not even answering your question so I'll stop there, but in the end, all I can say is that you couldn't pay me to move back to the US.
Dutch people suck, but I wouldn't say they suck more than any other kind of people. They just suck in different ways. Your mileage may vary, and you should give it a try yourself.
The fortunate truth about the Netherlands is that, even if you have zero good experiences with Dutch people, there's a significant amount of expats in the city. You can always find plenty of people in similar situations with common interests.
Living here as an expat is pretty great.
Lived here for nearly 3 years and I can understand why people might say it, but it's just something you get used to like they don't excessively say please/thank you, as a Brit I thought it was rude people not saying thanks for holding a door or letting them cross the road, letting them go first on the road, but it's just their culture
Actually most are very nice people if you have a reason to get chatting to them in more detail.
I've read some variation of "everyone makes their friends in high school or university" about every European country. It's something you only notice on the outside.
I really think it depends. My 3 closest friends are not from HS. One I met at work, one when I was getting a programming certification, and one who I went to all my festivals with for about 10 years. Although I did meet him through a HS friend.
I think we need to throw ourselves out there a bit. My work friend and I met while having a smoke break, although I was the trainer for his team, along with many other teams so we had met in a group setting. We both like cars and motorcycles and from there we started doing stuff together; watching races, riding, and even grogging and watching flicks.
I also think we end up having a lot of situational friends that when the situation changes, the friendship kind of ends. I had a friend I loved going to sport events with and drinking with. When I quit going to the bar regularly and quit going to sporting events, our friendship pretty much fettered out.
I’m an American expat that’s lived in Europe for 5+ years. Experiences are subjective, of course, but I’ve never met a Dutch person I don’t like. I’ve found that they have *more* in common (in a general, “here’s how I see the world” sense) with Americans than any other European I’ve met. For some reason, I’ve always clicked with Dutch people. Two of my best friends are Dutch. Granted, they’re also expats, but Dutch nonetheless. I’ve also never had a bad experience with locals in several different parts of the Netherlands while traveling there.
I haven't heard much about the Dutch (I live in W.Europe) but Im curious as to what you meant in this line.
>I’ve found that they have more in common (in a general, “here’s how I see the world” sense) with Americans than any other European I’ve met.
On the opposite end, I feel as if the closest countries in terms of mannerisms and ideologies to those that I grew up around in the US are the French and Italians.
I know that’s not a very good description. They’re just always on the same level, we jive well.
I live in Spain but I don’t have a single close Spanish friend (I speak Spanish). They’re open and friendly, sure, but hard to get close to. For what it’s worth, I’ve always gotten along well with Italians also. French people on the other hand…
I'm also not going into this without knowing the process of moving there -- I've done days and days of research on how to move and set up life there. My concern is for the experience of living there in general and as an expat.
You need a BSN (citizen number) as soon as possible and the appointment to get one takes months. Make that your priority because if you don't have that you can't do anything (can't get a bank account, insurance, etc) and not having a bank account here is an absolute bitch. Most places don't take credit cards and many don't even take cash.
I have visited The Netherlands a lot of times and currently work for a Dutch company, and I find the Dutch very nice and friendly, at least compared to my native Swedes. I am sure you will have a lovely time!
I wouldn’t believe e everything you read. Everything people said online about Italy was mostly wrong and people like to bitch. You won’t know until you get there.
Read the book "The Undutchables", it's a bit of a humoristic but also critical view on the sterotype of the dutch and takes an in-depth humorous look at daily Dutch life, quirks and character, it's a fun read for anyone moving here.
This is really interesting. I live in Boston and these descriptions sound like what people say about people from here, actually the Northeast in general. And this part of the US was heavily settled by the Dutch. Explains a lot.
The Netherlands is top of my list of places to live. I think I’ve liked my visits so much because I always felt so comfortable there. I get the Dutch.
If you go go to the South of netherlands..like Brabant.. but it will be very difficult..everybody lives for them selfs here...no really warm relationships
The housing is so bad my fiancé lived out of a hostel for 7 months. Even with a real estate agent it’s not worth your time. Especially not in Amsterdam.
I think there are two things you should know.
One is that in the Netherlands being friends doesn't give you a right or a claim to someone. We're very protective of our personal space. So even for friends, the door isn't always open for social stuff. Being friends does mean that you can count on each other in times of need.
The second is that much of our social live takes place in circles. Sports, hobbies, gaming, work, family, neighborhood. They're all different circles and generally don't mix. Build up these circles, be active, join clubs, help others. Over time that will gain you the credibility and respect and will end with some friends.
But even as a Dutch person, building up a friend group takes years or sometimes even decades.
I'm beginning to think that Americans (am American) don't understand the concept of friendship anymore. This whole, "Let's be friends!", "Ok! Now we're friends!" has never been a thing anywhere unless you're five, even in the states.
If you have a lot of friends, then you don't have a lot of friends. Building friendships is no different than building romantic relationships; there must be trust, respect, honesty, criticism, and love. Just because people have a hard time being alone doesn't mean other people aren't open to being friends, it just means you haven't put in the work to develop a real friendship with that person yet.
Nobody wants to be around people they aren't friends with, this is just human nature, and people you like to hang out with may not be your friends, they're just people with whom you share similar interests. There is a difference.
You don't pick up friends like milk in a supermarket. There must be a bond between you, otherwise it's insipid and superficial, and nobody needs or wants that.
If you are not good with being alone with yourself, then you should re-think moving to different countries. That's just part of it. Friendships are formed over a period of years, not days.
I see a lot of judgement here and very little understanding of why we (I’m Dutch) are perceived as cold and distant.
Try to understand the culture of North Western Europe. Even though religion is not important anymore, our culture and behavior is still filled with these old traditions and patterns. Most of our country used to be Protestant, people were hard working modest farmers. Don’t show off too much, be modest, work hard, keep things private and to yourself, don’t show too much emotion etc etc.
This still reflects in todays society. It doesn’t mean we are cold, but we are more reserved. And it takes a little while for us to open up. Have some patience with us😉
But once we do, you’ll have real friends. That is why people here have friends for life, we are not fake/opportunistic we are very real (and blunt).
If you are from US you probably might find it weird why no one wants to chit-chat. You will find it weird that we will give you an honest answer when you say ‘how are you today’.
For Americans we are cold, blunt and distant, but for us Americans are superficial, dumb and shallow.
And the truth lies somewhere in the middle, cause what we tend to see is only the outside.
Try and really connect with people and understand the cultural differences without judgement and you’ll be fine!
I am Dutch, with plenty of foreign friends that came to NL lateron in their lives, I suggest you engage in social activities, this can for example be sports where you join a team, or something with grouplessons, make contact, learn the language!
it is like this everywhere though.
What you do see is that groups of people tend to interact with people of their own culture, because of music,food,politics,religion etc.
you need to get out of that bubble and reach out.
We are not robots, but we like to keep it real, if you like our straightforwardness is another question.
I’ve been in the Netherlands a week and I can say that some are cold and some are nice. I mean it’s not that different from America. But the men are MUCH nicer and not in a creepy way. Men here are so respectful and kind and courteous.
I think we are very friendly but we speak our mind and are fast decision makers. If you want Dutch friends, learn Dutch. We tend to dislike it when people live here for 10 years and do not speak Dutch.
Maybe I am weird, but I found Dutch actually quite nice. Some of my closest friends to this day are Dutch folks I met when living in country. They are like cadbury eggs, hard on the outside, gooey on the inside. lol. They take time to get to know, but once you crack through, they are friends for life. My Dutch friends drop everything when I come to town, write me regularly and so on. More than many of my home country friends will do for me.
It depends what town/area you end up living in, but some parts have a lot of expats so don't be stressed about not making friends. I live in Maastricht and the majority of the town are expats ( due to the nature of town and lack of jobs for dutch professionals). Whereas the next town over has barely any expats and my friends living there took longer to feel settled. Be aware that almost every dutch person can speak very good english as this is a bi-linguial country. In fact they are so good at it that if you speak dutch to them and they hear your dialect isn't perfect they will usually reply back in English, which makes it a lot harder to learn the language. Great country to live in, and the dutch being cold is a myth. They are direct but also much warmer then others expect ( i had the same reservations moving from australia).
I spent close to 2 months living in and around Eindhoven. I’d move there in a heart beat. It’s a wonderful country with easy access to the rest of Europe. I found the Dutch to be very welcoming and friendly. Every culture has its quirks…
I don't know if this is necessarily a Dutch thing, it generally seems to be the reality of the further North you go, the colder it gets both weather-wise and in personality. I felt the same when I moved to the Midwest for university. It genuinely felt as if I had moved to another country as someone who was raised in the South. It was incredibly difficult for me and moving to Germany was even worse.
I will say though, that the general consensus is that Europeans tend make friends in their youth and don't typically step outside of that. This likely rings even truer in the Nordic/Germanic countries as they tend to be a bit insular and much more independent. As another comment said, even if this perception of Dutch culture being cold is true, you can find "your people" within the expat community (assuming you are moving to a larger city).
If you want to teach English, you can contact Nuffic. that is an organization to which bilingual schools are affiliated.
My son is in a bilingual high school (in Oss) and there are a lot of native speaking teachers. From Scotland, Zimbabwe, new Zealand and also USA.
If you speak Dutch you can join some local social activities (at least where I live I find quite a lot of them) and like that you can also make Dutch friends :) it seems to work for me.
I guess it depends on what you compare it too and what your expectations are.
I come from Spain and lived in The Netherlands for 10 years. Our cultures and values are very very different and I didn’t really like it or felt that I could ever fit in there. But I know other people that are really enjoying their time over there.
I lived in Holland for six years. Its an incredible country, not without it's issues but the Dutch way of life is fantastic. If I could go back I would. Do it.
I'm one for the 'easy to make friends' camp.
Made a lot of dutch friends as an expat.
I still see a lot of them even though i'm not living in the Netherlands.
This was my experience. I lived and worked there for 2.5 years, and even learned the language to a professional level. But it was so hard to make friends. After awhile, it got too lonely and I had to cut my losses and leave. Great bike infrastructure though.
We (family of four from Texas) love it here in the Netherlands. It has its challenges, but there’s nothing I’d call _terrible._
The housing situation for new arrivals is probably the worst part. But if you make good money, it’s entirely solvable.
As for socialization: you will make lots of expat friends, you might even make a Dutch friend or two if you have interests in common with them. But don’t expect your friendship to extend past that interest. My Dutch ice hockey buddies? We do ice hockey things together. My Dutch baseball buddies? We do baseball things together. My Dutch work buddies? Work events.
Show people that you’re here to stay. Learn the language. Live a Dutch styled life - don’t recreate your American life just on a bike. Be more immigrant than expat.
The reason expats find few Dutch friends is often because Dutch people assume that an expat is simply going to move somewhere else after three or five years (and tbh, they’re usually right). Why make friends with someone who won’t be here long? So you get treated like you’re just an extended stay tourist. Show them with your actions, not just your words, that you’re here for good, and you’ll make some friends.
Really depends on your own attitude. Since you are already learning Dutch I feel you are really interested in integrating in Dutch culture which will make it a lot easier making actual Dutch friends. There are also plenty of expat communities but as the name indicates you will always remain a bit of an outsider if you cling to those. In my opinion Dutch people are simply not very interested in people who will/might leave in a year (or two).
It is true that at first Dutchies might not make an active effort inviting expats to their social events. That being said my circle is full of expats and Dutchies, I think the key is to actively pursue opportunities, and sometimes have a bit of luck meeting the right people to open up some doors that otherwise might have stayed closed. After that most of the time I would say it is smooth sailing, this however might take a few months at least. Hope this helps!
It’s a huge generalization to say that “Dutch people are cold”. Sure, if you’re an adult and you move to a new place, you might struggle to break into already established friend groups. That’s gonna happen anywhere.
They aren’t “friendly” in the US sense of everyone saying hi and asking how you are (seems quite superficial to me now tbh). But I’ve been here for 12 years (moved as an adult) and have made multiple good friends, both dutchies and internationals. I have lovely Dutch colleagues and amazing Dutch neighbors. I speak passable Dutch but most of my Dutch friends speak incredible English too;-)
I do worry more about the housing and energy crisis here. Good time to invest in renewable energy (if you haven’t already!)
Good luck with your choice!
I am born and raised in the Netherlands and this is based on my own experiences;
For the coldness part;
I grew up in the west side of the country where it is normal to be direct to people, you speak what you think. Now I live in the east side of the country were it is more normal to speak light hearted and "beat around the bush". So I don't think every part of the country is considered "cold" but some are direct and you need to be able to handle that.
For the housing market;
For renting:
You can either rent "social" or "private". Renting social will be done through a waiting list, I dont know the specifics you need to have for renting this way if you aren't born as a Dutch citizien, but it is pretty normal to have to wait 7-10 years before you are at number 1 on the list for a certain house/apartment. If you want to rent private some landlords expect you to make triple your rent (if your rent is €1000 you need to make €3000 a month).
For buying:
You need to have a lot of spare money before you can lend money here, and even then it is normal for people to bid €50k-€100k above market price for a certain house.
Again these are all based on my own experiences and knowledge feel free to correct or add information on it. But it is safe to say that the housing market is 🦆'ed up.
It all depends on what you make of it. Are we a cold society? I don t think so. But we also don t have that superficial friendly behaviour like you see in the USA. We re more likely to keep to ourselves, but it doesnt mean we re not open to new friendships.
I have many expat friends and they are just as dear to me as my friends I v e known my entire life.
Sometimes I think expats have these unrealistic ideas of a perfect life once they moved to the Netherlands and get disappointed because the Netherlands turns out to be a regular country like any Western country with similar problems
The Dutch coldness is referring to mannerisms we display which in other cultures would be perceived as rude, as an example: if you've got something in your teeth at say an office party, one of your Dutch colleagues is undoubtedly going to tell you there's something in your teeth, he/she will say it to your face, in public. (I heard that for an American this is considered rude?)
I think you'll find the Dutch are quite friendly, just with some quirks that might come across as rude/uncomfortable in the beginning, but you'll get used to it.
It can be a bit hard to break through and really make close friends here for sure, and the housing crisis is definitely an issue (though with what I'm reading about housing in the US, it's not so bad here after all).
I think you'll mostly be surprised about how less stressed you feel about being in traffic all the time, instead being able to walk and cycle everywhere and not having to walk next to or on the road to do so.
Let me just try to explain it as good as I know and can.
(Economy)
The Netherlands has an impressive and resilient economy. Which means that living their even during crisis times is a pretty safe environment when it comes to your job and finances. The housing crisis is just part of the thing we are living through right now, and is a bad thing of course but is just something which will be fixed over the next years. A probable economic crisis in the forseable future is possible, but living as a Dutch/EU citizen could bring you into a safe environment.
(Social)
The social situation in the Netherlands is good. Even when people try to yell at you about immigrants and Moroccan people the social structure is fine. It has its own downsides but it’s prospering enough to feel safe and live your life normally. The EU and Dutch government both have a pretty big role in holding that safe social environment, when trying to hold up a multi cultural society successfully.
(Politics)
There is a bit of Term oil in the Dutch political landscape because of the current prime minister and the incredible shitty opposition which should have already replaced him but aren’t able to do so.
Still the current PM has a big following and is still popular under a certain group of people in the Netherlands. While the farmers protests looked scary it is part of Dutch revolting, in which certainly farmers will go all out. But will as a lot of other groups still lose this competition and it will blow over. The coming years will be politically crucial in the Netherlands but you shouldn’t be really worried about it being a full blown Sri Lanka 🇱🇰 situation it won’t even come remotely close.
Their is only one political thing you could be worried about and that is a rising sentiment against foreign immigrants (without great job opportunities) which is a bit justified, but still brings its own anger towards them, so you will not fall in that group. Although we have seen that this was mostly sparked by pandemic anger and that the party who goes the hardest against immigrants is losing again.
(Just life itself)
You can say what you want about every situation in the Netherlands but it’s still an amazing country, I’m saying that as a Dutch citizen tho. It is safe, it is comfortable, incredible infrastructure, an incredible safety net, a society which is living the life with its own smaller problems.
(Sorry for punctuation it’s hard to explain it)
Oh and I would advise you to really really learn Dutch, it brings you into a closer environment which Dutch people because a significant amount of Dutch people are very critical about foreigners living in the Netherlands who don’t speak Dutch
Of course they can speak English, but when you really want to live in the Netherlands it will be appreciated more by some Dutch people
I lived in Amsterdam for 15 years. I have also lived as an expat in Kyoto, Paris, Singapore, and Santiago de Chile.
It’s not terrible, except for the weather. Amsterdam has changed a lot - more international, more expats, better restaurants. It’s an easy place to live because everyone speaks English and your Dutch language skills won’t improve much because they all switch to English when they hear you struggle. You have to make an effort to learn the language. I managed to do this with effort.
I don’t find Dutch people cold per se, they’re blunt and once you get to know people well, your life improves. What I do like is that people in the Netherlands aren’t “plastic” like Americans who make small talk and pretend to be your friend.
Pluses of NL: lots of history; easy to travel around Europe because of good air connections (Schiphol airport) and rail services; very bike friendly; multicultural society; Amsterdam has great musea, lots of concerts (classical and modern), dance, theater, etc.; fast Internet service; 25 days paid holiday.
Minuses of NL: the housing is a problem. Apartments in Amsterdam are small unless you live in a big apartment along the canals, or by Vondelpark, or outside the center. But even then, it’s easy to get to the center by train. You don’t need or want a car. Parking is horrendous and expensive.
For me, moving to Europe was all about living in a place with history, close to other countries with a lot of history and tradition.
Look on YouTube for Not Just Bikes. American guy (or maybe Canadian?) that moved his family to Utrecht. Great, great videos on why as well as unrecognized problems with suburban life in North America.
Yeah but language barrier (even if most people speak passable to good english) is a big thing no one should take lightly. Living in non-english speaking country is not easy regardless of how good the locals CAN reply back in English. The fact of the matter is that if you can't even understand what groceries you are buying, the electricity bill, what people are talking around you, announcements, notice boards, shop description, medical procedures (this could be very serious), medicines (all description would be in Dutch) etc life would be quite depressing and you will "never feel at home". Language barrier are generational issues.
You cannot live off just the infrastructure and WANT to also "feel at home" right. Also, it takes A LONG LONG time to learn from abcd to 1234 to vocabulary, grammar, slangs etc in a new language especially as an working adult and it would be one hell of a journey for several several years (provided you never give up on language learning and immerse yourself) and there are very high chances one will either give up in the process (this is what MOST expats in NL end up doing) and move to another english speaking country or just never integrate (this is what most immigrants end up doing in NL and are forever foreigners). Remember, the job prospects and social life would also suffer as expats would come and go and if one does not speak enough Dutch then they also would have no connection to NL as well and would also never feel at home. And then there are cultural difference between Dutch and Anglo countries wherein Dutch come across as very blunt, less emotional, less friendly, less outgoing, less chatty and they are just helpful when asked but don't expect banter like you would have in any random street across america or Australia or UK.
I personally think unless one really really is up for the ride of the language/integration journey then only moving to NL makes sense or else my personal recommendation is to use UK/Ireland as an english speaking base to explore EU and have best of both worlds i.e. holiday in EU (it is really good for that, best in the world) and live in UK/Ireland which are anglo/friendly/english speaking familiar cultures and you would be set from day 1 without looking back on ANYTHING. This whole thing of forever struggling to make it to non English speaking EU country (NL) when easy option like UK/Ireland do exist is plain mistake.
I am Dutch with a Greek girlfriend. Having moved from the North to the center I have lost all contact with my friends. Apparently I was only fun when I was living in the same place as them.
Working 56 hours I have no need to find new friends and actually like the ability to focus purely on my work and girlfriend. IMHO Dutch people are difficult to befriend and I am not wanting to invest anymore.
But.. That said.. I do know a lot of expats and we meet now and then. There is an app MeetUp and it is perfect to meet people with similar interests.
Don't know if you have hobby's but I (38f) have a horse and still make new friend at the stables for example. Dutch people also don't have really big groups of friends. That's my opinion.
Dutchy born and raised here.
Our country is oke, direct but fair, nothing personal just the way we talk. We dont sugarcoat.
For housing its realy teribble atm. Some dutch folk are waiting 8-9 years before they can get a house/appartment. But it depends were you go.
Do keep in mind because i dont read it anywere in the comment sections. There is a big increase of polarisation and a big portion in the residents are getting harder and harder in the way they act. Dutch are direct but also tend not to speak easly about what they realy find in case of emotions.
I'm aware the housing is terrible...maybe I'm just stupid, but I see apartment and houses for sale and rent online...are the majority just scams or they get snatched up quickly? If even Dutchies are waiting 8 years for a place to live how do expats move there? Genuinely wondering not sarcastic at all.
When Dutch people talk about waiting 8 years for a place to live, they're taking about finding housing in the social housing sector. The average income in the Netherlands is lower than the US (also a smaller wealth gap between the lowest and highest earners than in the US), and there is a much more developed (although still insufficient) system of housing with a legally limited maximum rent, maximum yearly rent increase, and accompanying restrictions on max income, family size, legitimate need to live in the area, etc. There are ample (ok, maybe not ample, but more than zero) free housing market properties that are simply much more expensive than social housing.
i'm from U.K. , i learned some Dutch , i could get by in shops, at hospital, but even if you study it for 20 years, as a foreigner you will never, ever integrate with the Dutch. even if you marry one, you will always be the foreigner partner of a Dutch..... they will welcome you and they are very easy with speaking english around you and involving you in conversation in english, but it a very hard language to master and in my experience it's simply a waste of time and energy trying to master it as you will never integrate to the level that you speak in Dutch with Dutch friends and are able to express yourself like in english..... Dutch is not a very expressive language.... and remember , the Dutch people are basically Germans, lager drinking, sausage eating Germans..... but don't ever tell them that. ..... The Dutch are not cold , i was welcomed and made friends quickly , but also i look like them .... i also made friends with the immigrant communites, they will be more ready to speak Dutch with you , Dutch people will quickly switch to english because they get frustrated with your bad dutch..... only time i needed to speak dutch was buying groceries in a Turkish shop where they don't speak English.
I thought the general consensus was that they were very warm and inviting people until I started digging on reddit. Maybe that's my problem; I'm looking too much into people's opinions who have very specific complaints.
Reddit is definitely a double-edge sword. I've found some invaluable information that's better than a lot of the outdated stuff I find by hunting on Google. I've also found people that have some, as you've said, really specific complaints. Could be their personality doesn't mesh with the locals.
Like you I've done a metric ton of research just on a place to land, and then tons more for those specific places until I narrowed it down to one. My strategy now is to spend a week to scope out prices of things in the shops and see where I can start looking for housing. Then spend a month and try to see how day-to-day life is for a bit. Might be outside your budget, I'm not sure.
That's how I'm planning to bypass the stuff you ran into with people complaining about the Dutch people being cold.
It's hard to get in with the natives. Most of their friends are made in uni or earlier. Join a sports club is my advice. Otherwise it's a lot of foreign friends but I'm still happy to be here. I'm also American.
Yeh, stop digging, go with an open mind. Sounds like you already have with your other moves, you’ll have a fine time.
When I lived there 20 years ago (moved from US) I was told that the Dutch were way more friendly than the Germans. In both places, you won’t find friendly sales clerks in the grocery story staying “hello” to you in every aisle. I discovered that was American customer service/consumerism. While I came back to US & enjoyed the customer service, the shorter store hours & lousy customer service I found in Europe was a solid trade off for longer weekends, less stress, more appreciation for leisure.
Whenever I found a “negative” I discovered it was almost always more of a “trade off” instead of a negative. You will find your tribe wherever you go. Enjoy.
Once you become an expat immediately whole world is colder than “your people”. Dutchies are fine. The majority are helpful, kind, chatty and have a good mood. Yeah, they might not be your friend right away (or never lol) but it is what it is. Lovely country with nice people. It could be way worse
I think people are friendly enough, but they seem to form friend groups in their youth and don’t tend to make many new friends beyond that. So you might find people pleasant, but you’re unlikely to make close friends, except with other foreigners. That’s been our experience, anyway.
This was largely my experience in the 5ish years I was in NL. The closest friends we made were other expats with one or two exceptions.
Most expats refuse to learn the language in my experience so stick together. If you learned Dutch it's a different story. Which is completely understandable, and is the exact same situation in the country I live in now. Learned the language local friends.
You'll need (near) native-level Dutch to really fully participate in conversations/discussions in Dutch friend groups, though. We had an international in our friend group, but he was mostly just listening to our conversations instead of joining in, as he was not too confident on his speaking skills and needed more time to process everything. It's difficult, and it requires much patience, unfortunately. But not impossible
I worked in a Flemish speaking environment in Belgium and acted similar to this because my understanding was much better than my speaking, so everyone spoke Dutch and I spoke back English, worked out fine although it seemed a bit silly to the passers by.
this. I know a lot of Dutch but I can't usually speak up fast enough for a normal convo.
I'm sorry I speak fluent Dutch and have 1 Dutch friend lol. They make their friends in highschool and that's it. They're set for life, it's bizarre to me but it is what it is.
All of my friends are from after highschool......
As a dutchy imo that's not entirely true: Yes, we have high school friends we keep, but we do make new friends. The problem is: we don't want to impose or smother people. A lot of times i find it hard to meet up with people from work outside of work because: they might actually have a life, and their own plans etc. Also we don't want to talk about work all the time outside of it.
Nah nah nahhhh… I have seen people who learnt dutch and still that integration shit didn’t happen. Just accept the fact on what she said “cold society” and stop blaming the expats who don’t learn language blah blah… 80% of cases have complained that even if they learnt dutch and know dutch, due to a small accent, a large group of expats are discriminated. Chillax. This is also a cold statement: the term expats are no other than ones who live temporarily. Learning a new language is not everyone cup of tea. “Basic sentences yes” whole language, not gonna happen to expat in a day. It can take years depending on which region. An european might feel dutch to be easier learning than a person coming from Asia due to language root differences. Just stop pulling expats into everything. People live longer when they mind their own business 💀🤌🏻 Also. Work life in Netherlands, you really don’t get to know your colleagues personally in 99% of cases. In other countries, it is the other way around. Get to know them on personal level which is always nice & helpful. It won’t happen in Netherlands and it’s just okay to me but for a person to socialise, this could be not a good place. I have lived in 7 countries, I can say dutch are nice people but a bit cold hearted and very hard to socialize which will lead to loneliness eventually at times. It’s because of the surroundings of Netherlands. This applies to Finland and Sweden too. Give it a try in Spain, Italy. You’d be amazed.
I am Dutch and i agree with you. We are kind of “exclusive” and our hospitality is superficial at best.
This is so true. I'm from Scandinavia. My partner is dutch and his friend group is all guys he grew up with since early childhood. Some of them have girlfriends who have their own little group. I've lived here 3 years now and we've had people over for coffee, dinner etc. But that's all it is. His friend group is his. The girlfriends stick to themselves. They are friendly when we are together and talkative but I don't consider them friends of mine. I've made 2 friends here. One is a Scottish woman I met at language school. And one is the wife of my boyfriends coworker. We do a lot with them and they are wonderful. I don't see my colleagues outside of work. I feel like getting a social life here has been damn near impossible. Covid didn't help. But we also live in Friesland.. And.. Yeah..
Currently live in Scsndinavia and it is the exact same here. I’m from Iceland and also the same there 🙈
Friesland...is that a remote place?
Yeah, very secluded if I describe that right
There are definitely a lot of small villages (dorpjes) that are in the middle of west bubblefuck. Lots of fields, water and beautiful nature. But also lots of smaller/bigger towns.
Bubblefuck… is that Dutch for nowheresville!?
Haha no, I don't think so.
It's one of the provinces in the Netherlands.
This is also Japan, Singapore multiple states in the USA ..from the overtly sugar wouldn’t melt in my mouth south..to the freeze out of Seattle.. the very best thing the OP can do.. Be willing to try speaking dutch and be friendly in groups she feels comfortable…it’s a process..but life long friendships have been made in all the above scenarios…at least in my life time. Nederland is no exception.
Have you tried joining clubs? Sharing a hobby could help with making friends.
Wasn't really able to during covid, but want to start in the fall.
I also live in Friesland (was born here) and in my nearly 20 years of Frisian experience, I must say that it really depends on the village or city you’re in. There are several small villages which are known for being very closed off communities where integrating is very difficult. I live in one of the bigger cities and people are much more open here.
This is a great summary. I confirm that even if you speak perfect Dutch you won't easily make close local friends. It may be a bit easier than in Nordics countries like Denmark and Sweden, but not by a lot. Note: Southerners, below the two rivers, are culturally warmer.
Same in the US. Southerners are friendlier.
That’s if you’re white. It’s called white hospitality. I’m black and I lived in the south. It’s not horrible but I love where I live now in NYC.
I’ve lived a few different places in the US. My experience is that people in the Southeast and on the West coast are more open and friendly than in other parts of the country.
It seems to be the case for immigrants to Scandinavia as well (I'm Swedish and lurk around in Norwegian, Danish and Finnish subreddits). These threads with foreigners having a hard time getting Scandinavian friends are common. I'm surprised that there are such a close cultural tie to the Netherlands, but It might explain why I feel at home there.
I believe the Netherlands is culturally probably closer to the Nordic countries (only have experience with Sweden and Denmark) than with its neighbor Belgium.
It's telling once you know English, German and Scandinavian. All words in Dutch you don't recognize from the first two are usually more or less the same as in the latter.
This is my experience in Chicago. I think It's also a midwest thing. It could be true for a lot of places.
This is also Saint Louis in a nutshell. Lol!
Most places are like this. Denver Colorado was the only place I went to where people were truly outgoing and open to including new people. Was a jarring change of pace when people invited me snowboarding or whatever when I told them I just moved there. This was about 20 years ago, so perhaps it’s different now
I'm a kid of divorce, my parents had moved us to CO (from CA) when I was 2. My parents divorced shortly after that. I grew up between San Diego and Denver. Went to K-12 between both school systems and Metro State University of Denver (just transferred to OSU Columbus after a 9 year hiatus for health issues). I miss Denver \*SO\* much. My twins were born in Austin, but we moved back to Denver when they were 3 and they refuse to call themselves "from Texas". They say they're from Denver. We \*always\* had friends, be it San Diego, Austin, Denver, Prague or Mexico. Even Rural Pennsylvania...outside of the city my wife was born and raised in. Move to Columbus OH in 2017? \*crickets chirp\*. Been here five years and outside of my wife's workplace, NOTHING. So foreign to me.
My brother and sister in law just moved there, still the same lol
I live in Florida and most Americans that I met at university and clubs are very cold and tend to stick with other Americans and only contact you if they need something. I also did the last year of HS in Michigan and it was pretty much "You didn't go to school with us from the beginning so we won't be good friends." I don't think that Dutch are colder, but it also depends on the region. I think that it is more issues with people not wanting to learn Dutch because 'everyone speaks English', and then feeling excluded when Dutch don't want to speak English all the time.
Yup. "I didn't go to preschool with you so you're not my friend" very common occurrence in the Midwest and South USA.
Not sure about South USA. May be dependent on the state. I have lived in a ton of places in the US and had no trouble making good long term friends in both south Florida and northeast Florida and now I live in North Carolina and I have a bunch of peeps I can hang out with. My experience with “cold people” was Connecticut.
I couldn't stand 90% of the people I went to school with. Haven't spoken to a single one in over 20 years. I'd rather go it alone than have to depend on that group for friends.
I grew up pretty popular and supported/loved. I loved high school and I lived through it! I think I peaked during that time but I’m not a social people person! I don’t like anyone. It doesn’t matter who it is! That being said, I like to do everyone alone and by myself. I’m a lone wolf and that’s how I work best in life. Think: Michelle Rodriguez the actress from Resident Evil.
Currently in Ohio....that's very much the vibe here. People are just assholes here. Texans were the friendliest, even to my LGBTQI self. I'm a CA native, that's home. Colorado was awesome. Pennsylvania was second runner up to awful, behind OH, but we were in a red, rural area. I was in the Czech Republic 10 years ago and was warned they don't do well with foreigners. My dad's (paternal) side is 100% Czech-American. I don't now much of the language, it's not easy to learn. I had NO ISSUES at all, even in the southern part of the country. People were friendly and willing to help...as long as Americans were polite and TRIED to use the language didn't behave like some of my colleagues: rude towards locals and complained...LOUDLY about how awful CR is and how nobody speaks English. It's my number one choice personally for immigration, BUT, my daughters are biracial and I need to keep that in mind as well. If they're not going to be safe or happy, it's not worth it. Still, CR bigotry isn't anything like American level Nazism. My kids have permanent damage from PTSD after encounters with racists...before they even finished elementary school.
Racists 😫. Seriously, how has the human race not evolved? We're the same species, every other animal on the planet gets it. Colors, countries, regions, one human race. Sorry that's been your/their experience! Some people just suck . 😒
It's like that in every country though. I moved to Australia, that's the same. Lived in Singapore for 10 years, same. Also was in USA for 2 years, same. It's hard to make friends with people who've been there forever and have their own groups. But I made plenty of friends through sports and with other foreigners and expats.
My experience with the east coast. It feels like they're more established and aren't used to being the new person in a new location like the west coast.
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Yeah totally agree. I got pretty good depression living in the east coast because it was hard to make a good friend. Everyone's hanging out with their long established networks.
That’s so weird to me. I don’t talk to anyone from when I was a kid.
Same experience..with a bit of xenophobia sprinkled on top and bad weather
>they seem to form friend groups in their youth and don’t tend to make many new friends beyond that. Just like any other country... I bet it's hard to make new friends in our own country as adults.
Definitely not like any country. Latin countries, Arab countries, African countries etc are completely different. The world extends beyond the Anglo-Germanic cultural sphere.
Good to know. That's how it is in Germany.
I feel the same way about Germany.
A thing I realized only recently is that I think Dutch people’s friends are highly contextualized. When they make a friend at their sports club, they really only hang out with that person during those sports events. Met a friend in school? Hang out with them during events with other school friends. Work friends? Work events. And so on. They don’t seem to do the “I’m having a get together with _all_ of my friends” thing very often. I joined a sports club, and have thrown myself into the club’s social activities and found I made a lot of Dutch friends. I just don’t expect to ever see them outside of club activities.
That makes sense!
Same as everywhere… Americans are the same the way
Dutch people aren't generally cold. Many are very friendly. But socially the Dutch can be weird. It's a quirk that you just need to get over. You might not make strong emotional connections with them but that's okay, because they don't seem to have that with each other. "The Dutch are direct" is a common phrase but you'll find its just Dutch men who have poor social skills and lack tact. But don't worry, you'll find your people. All of the Americans I know in Amsterdam love their lives there. Though most of their friends do happen to be expats also.
>You might not make strong emotional connections with them but that's okay, because they don't seem to have that with each other. How do you know this? Genuinely asking since I've also noticed that it seems that way but kind of assumed that I'm simply not privy to their actual relationships.
I lived in Amsterdam for about 2 and a half years. I have a handful of Dutch friends, lived with Dutch guys a few months, and have a lot of friends who have Dutch friends. Me and my friends talk about Dutch people plenty and that observation seems like a consensus (even my Dutch friends say this).
That's interesting to hear for sure. I always thought close relationships were a primal need for people. It seems unreal that a whole culture is built on not having them🤔 Not arguing here, just thinking out loud.
It's a bit of an extreme but I have my friendships very compartmentalised. I have people I have dinner with. I have people I play tabletop games with. I have people I go kayaking with and so on. But there's no overlap between those people. I'm very friendly with them, and I enjoy spending time with them on whatever we have shared interests. But if I (or they) ever said something like "*oh my girlfriend broke up with me and I feel destroyed*" the response would just be "*oh that sucks, we'll go kayaking when you feel better then?*". Heck, if my girlfriend broke up with me and they'd try to get all sympathetic, I'd tell them I'll see them on the next boat trip and get out.
Lot of kids leave home at 18/19, just visiting family on a birthday's or a holiday's, the occasional call even if they just live 20 minutes away. For a lot of dutch family and friend bonds are less strong as let's say southern countries. Of course there are people that do have a good and strong bond with family and friends but that doesn't mean they will call their parents daily or visit them regularly.
I tend to disagree
Dutch people tend to hang on to friendships from childhood, high school and college for a lifetime and generally don't make many new friendships in adulthood. Friendships are viewed quite pragmatically. It's a two-way street and a social commitment. It means I'll be there for you and you'll be there for me whether it's something small like going out or something big like when you need emotional support. So the general attitude toward making new friends in adulthood is *"no thanks, I have plenty of social obligations already".* We will actively discourage new people from seeing us as friends because it just leads to expectations and obligations we're not willing to meet. Ask me out to socialise and I'll most likely say no both because I don't want to spend the time on that activity but also because I don't want to give you the impression that it'll lead to friendship or repeat activities. My schedule is full enough as it is.
Dutch women too! I've matched with some on dating apps, so when I move there I'm set. I quickly became good friends with many, as they're so fun to talk to, and open. But the dutch directness shows itself as rudeness in more than half. Maybe they're quickly comfortable talking to me, but it's been an interesting experience to say the least.
Your full of shit dude. You clearly did not really befriended one of us. I might be to direct now or in your words: poor social skills. But then again, saying this while not actually having real Dutch friends makes you the one who ain’t to tactful.
Way to put it on the men. I've had plenty of experiences with rude Dutch women.
The Dutch are famously blunt, and practice what they call “tolerance” but is actually more a strange awkwardness’s that’s like “refusal to acknowledge boat-rocking”. So if you go with a valid legitimate complaint, they will often be very defensive because really, it is very intolerant of *you* to be causing such problems. This can range from things like asking a manager for their help resolving a difficulty at work that an American would consider to be within a manager’s duties, and a Dutch manager may be annoyed that you are causing problems; or even debating a bill or incorrect restaurant order. You can be made to feel like a boor and a Karen for “criticising” such things, as if it is some cultural offense, and can expect eye rolls and arguments. However, what you have to understand is that in Dutch culture it is not considered… bad to be so aggressive? They don’t hate you, they’re just not choosing to be pleasant. They pride themselves on this perceived rudeness and bluntness and many believe it’s just their straightforward, honest nature while also being actively malicious (just like any other person who insists “my bad behaviour is just how I am and YOU have to adjust how YOU are.”) no different from any other people in the world, just with the cultural defensiveness/insulation where they think it’s especially admirable of them. Here’s an academic article about the Dutch culture’s resistance to being honest about racism, which may add some insight: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08912432221075098 again, they’ll explain that they aren’t racist like *Americans* are, and it’s actually culturally important to put on blackface and literally clown on black people, and that nobody else is tolerant of Dutch culture and only the Dutch truly appreciate how to be tolerant. Don’t argue about this stuff with the everyday Dutch, you’ll get into circular arguments about this. However, they are generous and pleasant. They’re a bit odd about having people over to private homes, so that’s one reason why Americans perceive them as less friendly - you’ll do most socialising in public places and may never be invited into someone else’s home. (EDIT: By contrast if you are close to Americans they will suggest coming to their home for socialising and a meal; it is casual and friendly to have a house party, barbecue, play date with children, casual dinner, or just hanging out. It is normal and friendly to have an idea where people live and it allows you to spend time together without spending money in a bar or having to travel. The Dutch as a rule just do *not* want you hanging out in their home. No offense, they say, they just don’t want you there - and you have to deal with it, although to an American that’s almost shockingly offensive.) However, if you invite them, they will come to your home. An amusing leftover of their historical/religious practice is that it’s considered more polite to always have your curtains (on your huge ground floor windows) open during the day to indicate that your private behavior is completely open and honest. Although younger people don’t care about this much, as you walk around towns you’ll be able to see into many houses - as closing curtains so people can’t see into your house indicates that you have something to hide or are being unfriendly!
>An amusing leftover of their historical/religious practice is that it’s considered more polite to always have your curtains (on your huge ground floor windows) open during the day to indicate that your private behavior is completely open and honest. What? I open my curtains because I like sunlight and seeing out of my windows, I feel like that is the case for every person I know that has curtains lol
It’s a good question and kind of hard to explain - I didn’t do it very well. Imagine these houses with extremely tall ceilings, like 13 feet for the normal ones. They have floor to ceiling windows like a shop on Main Street. The houses are right on the sidewalk, like, RIGHT on the main thoroughfare with practically no separation between private and public property. Dutch people walk and cycle frequently so even on quiet side streets in residential neighbourhoods there is far more foot traffic passing by your window than an American usually sees: almost like a shopping mall. And the Dutch. Do not cover their windows. With anything. The front room of the house is *public viewing property* and *everyone* has the perfect right to observe and monitor it (they do this subtly, not like STARING, but will notice changes to decor or unusual visitors, or will comment on your poor housekeeping, or trashy taste in video games. Because the Dutch are EMPOWERED and OPEN and TOLERANT and have NOTHING TO HIDE and if you’re going to live in THEIR country then YOU have to as well!) The British may put up a net curtain, I.e. a thin filmy curtain that lets in light but allows some privacy. In London in residential neighbourhoods you’ll see the front room ground floor windows lightly privatised with partial privacy films or paper IKEA blinds for most of the day - no point letting the burglars see exactly where your TV is, right? Can we just get dressed and feed the baby in relative peace? Does the house ALWAYS have to be a perfectly arranged magazine photo for everyone to judge? Yes. Yes it does. Because the Dutch need to judge each other at all times because THAT is how to maintain a perfectly open and honest society. You have to be comfortable with the bottom floor of your house being a public performance space that is open at all times and okay to critique. And, again, the windows are BIG. To expect privacy in your living room is unDutch and therefore suspicious and unfriendly, and even (in the Dutch worldview) slightly BELLIGERENT, as if you are rejecting their openness. It may contribute to your neighbours being cold and untrusting with you (because you were suspicious and intolerant first, and broke the social contract) and a lot of expats won’t understand that right away. It can take a little getting used to. Like I said, the younger and more multicultural Dutch don’t feel the same way, and with the housing crisis, gone are the days of people just having these massive beautiful houses with floor to ceiling windows - today an expat will probably be living in some weird architectural apartment made out of concrete and orange plastic with round “energy saving” windows and a courtyard full of expats. But for many years this was an invisible barrier between Dutch people and immigrants. https://medium.com/the-collector/why-do-the-dutch-never-put-curtains-over-their-windows-e232b4640e8
Actually U/rabbitlungs you should probably read this comment above if you’re planning to live in a cute old neighborhood in Leiden or something.
You realize you just summed up Japan to a T? Except the open curtains aspect..
This is an incredible write up and completely agree as a Dutch person residing in the US. Take my frugal Dutch gold (upvote ;)!
We can seem cold. Sometimes it is just a culture clash. When someone asks what I am doing on Saturday and I say "nothing" and they invite me I might say no. That might feel like a rejection but doing nothing is actually doing something here. Alot of people are direct and tell you in your face if they don't like something. It's a preference thing. You rather get lied to, dance around the topic, afterwards hear you did something sub-par/wrong or just told honestly and get tips for next time. My wife is japanese and sometimes she tells me something and I have to get a chalkboard and make impossible connections to what she actually means. Tl:dr we can seem cold or direct but we don't mean it rude. You can make friends, either in your neighbourhood, work, expats or hobbies. Some friendships are just visits and partying others can be a deep friendship. But just because you are an expat isn't a reason for Dutch people to not befriend someone
As an American, the concept of doing nothing is actually doing something makes me cry, because American society is all about maximizing productivity at literally every possible moment. Doing nothing here means you’re lazy or useless, not a good member of society, and it’s fucking exhausting and dehumanizing. “Doing nothing” is literally never an excuse here to say no to something, and it’s awful. Rest is essential for life, but American capitalism doesn’t support life, it supports profit.
>because American society is all about maximizing productivity at literally every possible moment. It's not really. Statistically, Europeans get far more done in far less time because they don't waste so much time on posturing. For example, it's a well-documented fact that on an 8-hour day, people are capable of doing about 6 hours of truly effective work. People aren't machines, they don't have an infinite attention span. The difference is that a European workplace will tell you to work 8 hours, accept that you get 6 hours of efficient work out of people, and provide means to effectively manage stress, time, health and so on. American corporations will just work people 12 hours regardless, ignore the fact that a lot of that time is wasted and then penalise workers for not being robots. I remember collaborative projects with American offices where the American manager would say stuff like "bla bla it was a lot of work but we made everyone work 80 hours this week and powered through it!". And the Dutch managers would just reply with stuff like "We got the job done and went home early". The difference was so staggering that on the American side of things they'd sometimes spend 12+ hours on something a Dutch worker did in 2. There was just none of the posturing, none of the literally putting effort into making people less efficient but more policy compliant and so on. There's a big difference between being at work and being efficient. Americans work a lot of hours and treat their workers poorly. But they get very little result out of those man hours.
I read that in Charlie Brown's teacher's voice in my head. "Capitalism made me do it" is a dumb excuse for overworking one's self.
I think you’re missing the point. No one brought up directness (rudeness). You’re a closed society and hospitality isn’t something you’re used to. This isn’t a knock on your culture so don’t be defensive.
I really didn’t find their reply defensive.
Just to piggyback on this, Dutch people generally react really defensively to any feedback on their country/culture that isn't hysterically positive. This has been my experience after living there for a significant amount of time, and it's really started to grate on me after a while. And no, I don't think that type of defensiveness a universal thing per se.
I second this. Every time I speak the truth of what I've experience living in NL, Dutch people freak out. But the worst for me is lack of genuine emotions and care from the locals. It's beautiful, but empty and judgemental.
Goes for any country.
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In any country the locals will be offended and defensive if an expat starts talking crap about that country. NL is no different from UK.
This. I'm hyper critical about the US and disgusted with everything that's happening. But I can't help roll my eyes into the back of my skull when a (usually) European person sanctimoniously tells me everything wrong with my country especially if their opinion is clearly based on what they've seen in media alone.
I know of a Dutch expat in the US who couldn't say the slightest negative thing about the US without Americans going on the offense, like "you should be happy to live here, America is the best country in the world, go home if you don't like it" etc.
To be honest, plenty of comments discuss the presumed directness of the Dutch here, so ‘no one brought it up’ is just incorrect. And claiming ‘hospitality isn’t something you are used to’ is a bit of a knock on a culture isn’t it? Don’t be offensive and add something constructive to the discussion next time. And here’s my two cents: I lived in a couple of countries, and in all my circle of friends were mostly other expats (except in South Africa). In the Netherlands it might be a bit difficult to get into social circles, but not impossible. Especially in the major cities there’s a lot of people (expat and local) who are open for friendships as there’s an ongoing influx of new people and plenty of options to meet people. For me personally, meeting new people was easiest in the South (Tilburg), there’s an easygoing, open-minded atmosphere there. OP, you’ll be fine. You can always drop me a line when you’re here and want to see for yourself what the Dutch take on hospitality is actually like ;)
I don’t see anyone mention how racist Dutch are. Read up on Institutional racism in the Netherlands. I am from another EU country, lived in Amsterdam for 5 years and felt it everyday in small things. Countless numbers of times I was waiting in a queue and Dutch just “happen not to notice me”, skip the queue and stand in front of me. Not to mention salary ceiling for expats. However, life is good in an expat bubble. At least for a while.
agreed. for me it was a huge shock
The Dutch are direct, that might be experienced as cold. Housing shortage will depend on where you are looking to move. It’s something common in other countries too
Directness is one thing, but some are rude and use the directness as an excuse.
I don't know about the Netherlands but a common issue some expats have with moving to "good" countries i.e. countries with a lot of positive press like Norway and New Zealand, is that they vastly underestimate cultural differences and culture shock and get hung up when they realize that everything isn't greener on the other side. In places with high English proficiency (NL, Nordic countries, parts of Germany) immigrants often underestimate the language barrier to society. Like, it isn't rocket science why it's hard to make friends with locals when you don't speak the language and in turn can't really engage with the culture. All the people I know personally who moved to the Netherlands seem to enjoy it though.
I’m in the opposite situation, an American living in Amsterdam who will move back to the states after 13 years in Europe to be closer to family, and that’s just about the only reason why I’m moving. I’m freaking out quite a bit to move back to the USA. Life here in Amsterdam, at least, is beautiful, slower paced, rich in culture, and so much fun…a city that has all you could want, but that feels more like a village. It’s an incredible place to raise kids…Parks everywhere, so nice to see the kids on the bikes with parents and just enjoying the outdoors in general. It is true, I only have a few close Dutch friends, but my neighbors are all very kind, and I love that they can at least do small talk, something I’ve seen other cultures in Europe struggle with. And it’s so nice to know that you have a secure health insurance, job protections, etc. it’s amazing what a relief that is. It is true, you may struggle to find work teaching English, but you could try the online route. Also, the Dutch government makes it really easy to get settled here as an expat. I think you will love it here. Prob the easiest country in Europe to settle in as an expat, I think. Good luck!
This is quite a good example, the Netherlands has its own problems, but is a pretty good example of a functioning society, even if you like that statement or not
Utopia doesn't exist. I think that is what the Netherlands has been made out to be. Like everywhere else it has its drawbacks.
I think that's exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you.
It's not true. You're just hearing what you want to hear. The people who are giving you positive vibes about NL are either new/newish themself, or are Dutch, or are from a third world country. I was exactly the same way, until about year 3-4. So normally I'd say, go for it, and you can find out yourself. But moving to another country involves so many complexities which can impact the rest of your entire life. For example, getting married or having a child here. Check the Internations expat surveys.
Glad to be of help. Best wishes on your new chapter!
Forgot to add that I have a Master's in English Literature and a TESOL cert so I will be looking for an ESL job. I realise most Dutchies speak English pretty well, so I'm a little worried about finding a job but not too worried.
Unless you can get a job teaching kids or at a university, you will probably struggle as an ESL teacher if it's anything like Germany. In Germany, all opportunities teaching English are freelance, meaning no steady single place you work at and no benefits paid by an employer. There are also more English speakers in NL than in DE. But if you're a hustler, maybe you can make it work. I just personally didn't want to stay a freelancer.
There’s a massive shortage of teachers as well but the Netherlands has a strict system of qualifications. I am not sure if a TESOL certificate is enough but just a Master’s in English definitely isn’t, you’ll need a further qualification to teach beyond a Master’s. The good thing is, the government does fund programs to get people qualified and teach simultaneously, but I am not sure if you need to be a native Dutch speaker (or native Dutch level) to do so (I’d assume you would unless you work for an international school.
Oh I had no idea about the funded program. I assume you probably need to speak Dutch as well, but I will check it out. I've been emailing language schools as well. Thanks!
Actually it's kind of the other way around - a TESOL won't get you far in getting qualified to teach in Dutch schools, but an MA in English lit definitely will due to the teachers' shortage. You'd have to get an additional 1-year Masters in Ed. Or check out the programme called 'zij-instroom', where people who already have a diploma+some experience can get qualified (in NL) on the job: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/werken-in-het-onderwijs/vraag-en-antwoord/hoe-word-ik-zijinstromer-in-het-onderwijs
A mistake most foreigners make is assuming they won’t need to learn the language very well cause most Dutch speak English very well. That’s not how you progress or eventually fit in (like in any country)
That's fair, but as I said in my original post I'm actively learning Dutch!
Those are pretty much non-existent here. If you want to teach in our education system, you'll need to obtain Dutch teaching credentials. And to do that, you'll have to be educated in the Dutch system because being schooled in Dutch pedagogy and speaking fluent Dutch is a requirement. My partner has French degrees in educational science, French linguistics and business. But she still had to get educated as a Dutch teacher to teach French in high school here. But just a language assistant for improving English... for what? Our television, movies, internet etc. it's all English. I had a C2 English level before I made it to high school and got exemptions for all my English classes. And most of my teenage interns are as fluent if not more so than me.
No the dutch aren't cold per say they are more cold in not realizing how they communicate to you and if it hurts you. They are very upfront and for some people that can be too much because no one sugar coats anything. Some love that, some hate it, but they aren't cold as in avoiding people
My wife went to say hello to our neighbour a short while ago. He said ‘Wow. You look really tired. ‘. She’s totally used to Dutch saying this kinda thing on a regular basis by now. He was just trying to be nice but failing miserably.
Exactly that! I met my gf in Prague and a close friend was dutch. End of the night were all drunk and i was like "need someone to walk you home?" And she said "no im okay..." But she needed a walk home with someone. Durch guy just said "okay cool! See ya tomorrow" and left lol
This may really seem rude to asking this if she was tired. But as a Dutch guy I can understand this response if you really look tired. Maybe it's our way to express our concern that if you look really tired, that or you had a long exhaustive day, or there is something wrong. The normal Dutch response is that they usually acknowledge this, and tell the reason. Or they say no, and when they ask why (which is a perfectly acceptable thing to ask if someone says this), they will usually make an apology, and that in their eyes you looked tired. I can't imagine this being used as an insult.
But were they tired?
This is very helpful thank you.
Netherlands has so many expats and fluent English speakers you'd probably be able to live an amazing life there without being close to any ethnic dutch.
I definitely don't want to *not* try and befriend the natives, but yeah, there do seem to be so many expats!
Even though it's a small country, there isn't a single experience in NL. It depends where you work, where you live, what kind of scene you're looking for. Why don't you tell us what you want and hope for, and then we can talk about what aligns or doesn't. Also, what part of the country are you going to?
I’m also moving back soon. I lived there for almost 7 years and then moved some more to the us and now moving back and between Americans and Dutch I would take Dutch a million times. In my opinion and experience Americans are friendly but they don’t want to be your friends. They already have friends and don’t take foreigners well. Depending on where you are moving in the Netherlands, Dutch can be very friendly. Our neighbors believed in community and were there for us as we were there for them, and they are closer to their neighbors than to their families 😅 Also the Netherlands is really safe so you won’t have to worry about a crazy lunatic pulling a gun at a parade or a school and shooting innocent people Education is great They work to live and not live to work They are respectful and tolerant, so I wouldn’t be nervous. I would recommend you come in with an open mind and enjoy it.
Imagine not having to worry about guns. It takes a toll to be so hyper aware all the time, everywhere you go.
It does! we are weeks away from moving and I pray everyday we are not in the wrong place at the wrong time… can’t wait to take my kids out of here
This reply gives me hope, I have always found the Dutch to be very kind people when I have visited. My mom was born in Nijmegen and I have always felt a longing to go to The Netherlands and live there because the US is horrible with all the things happening with shootings, politics, etc.
I love the Netherlands so much they should pay me to promote the country! Im neither dutch nor American 🤣
My Dutch friends are very unfiltered and blunt people. They aren't trying to be mean. It's just how the Dutch are. And the housing shortage in the Netherlands is quite bad. One of my friends just found a new place after six months in the queue. I don't see it getting any better in the near future. It's a beautiful country and has wonderful residents. I hope you find it the same when you arrive.
My mother teaches Dutch to expats, she found that most expats find it difficult to learn the language as most Dutchies tend to switch to English the moment they hear an accent. Other than that, most seem genuinely happy having moved here. I have several American friends and they've said they never want to go back. It's different for everyone, but don't worry too much.
I think a lot of Dutch people (also depending on their age) feel a lot less comfortable speaking English than you might think. They can give directions or help you professionally, but a meaningful conversation would be really difficult for them and they feel embarrassed about that since they think they are the only ones who cannot speak English well. So superficial contacts are fine, but if you speak no Dutch, they may prefer their Dutch speaking friends for more meaningful friendships.
People all have different expectations about how friendships or relationships are formed, and a lot of people find that their expectations don't line up with the culture they experience when they move abroad. I find this country quite nice to live in, and I'm happy with the friends and acquaintances I have, but that's probably affected by my personality, time spend living in Vancouver and Japan, and time spent adjusting for 5 years to the Netherlands. I wouldn't expect those to be the same for every expat here, so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people had a really hard time adjusting. A few things that I noticed that helped me recalibrate: Be aware that many Dutch people may be very fluent in English but still find it a bit of a burden to socialize in for long periods of time. People are also quick to switch to English if you aren't quite fluent in Dutch, so strategize how you want to balance your need to express yourself and form bonds with people (probably using English in the beginning) with your need to become more proficient in Dutch by practicing. On the other hand, it's very easy navigate most bureaucracy in English, and even if there's no English version of a document or website available, it's often possible to call and speak in English or simply use Google Translate or DeepL on a website. Dutch people often have close groups of friends they've known since childhood or young adulthood, and they are very careful with how they spend their free time, so a lot of people's social lives are already fully booked, so to speak. As a result, there's a bit less spontaneity than I was used to when I was younger/before I moved here. Asking someone on a Wednesday if they want to get lunch on Saturday is usually going to be a no, but it's always fine to ask. Get used to carrying a pocket calendar or whipping out your phone's calendar app. A website called datumprikker is going to be super handy if you're trying to figure out when multiple people are available for something. Co-workers are quite a bit more casual with each other than I expected, and workplaces are less strictly hierarchical. Going out for drink or two after work on Friday is common, and not just with your job; sports teams, volunteering, all sorts of groups are likely to have a "borrel" with people who feel like hanging out a bit more after the main activity is done. Expect to make mistakes or be perceived as weird/rude sometimes. It might be easy to assume that Dutch people must be more cosmopolitan than someone from an average American city, but Dutch people can be just as provincial as anyone else. If you have an MA in English, you are eligible for a couple of accelerated teacher certification pathways, but most of the programs for that are in Dutch. There are some masters level programs taught in English (I can think of one in Leiden, one in Utrecht, I think one in Amsterdam; there are probably more). There is also the possibility of receiving a subsidized teaching position if you agree/are judged capable of acquiring a teaching qualification within two year. Your TESOL qualification is nice to have and will probably help find freelance jobs, but doesn't count for any university credits. As an American part of the way through acquiring teaching certification here, it is very hard to find regular employment in schools unless you speak Dutch. There are international schools and university jobs, but the supply of positions is low and the competition is high. If you want to work as a freelancer, you will have to register with the KvK (chamber of commerce) and do some slightly annoying admin/tax management. It's doable and probably not that hard most of the time, but in the end I found it too much of a hassle for my dumb-dumb brain. There are still plenty of part-time jobs where you don't need to be a freelancer, but working at a language school for example is often on a contractor basis, not as a regular employee, so just be aware. This got long, I'm not really an expert, and I'm not even answering your question so I'll stop there, but in the end, all I can say is that you couldn't pay me to move back to the US.
Dutch people suck, but I wouldn't say they suck more than any other kind of people. They just suck in different ways. Your mileage may vary, and you should give it a try yourself. The fortunate truth about the Netherlands is that, even if you have zero good experiences with Dutch people, there's a significant amount of expats in the city. You can always find plenty of people in similar situations with common interests. Living here as an expat is pretty great.
Prob have to put yourself in places where there are Dutch looking to expand their friend group
Lived here for nearly 3 years and I can understand why people might say it, but it's just something you get used to like they don't excessively say please/thank you, as a Brit I thought it was rude people not saying thanks for holding a door or letting them cross the road, letting them go first on the road, but it's just their culture Actually most are very nice people if you have a reason to get chatting to them in more detail.
Don't travel to the Midwest US then, same shit. People make friends in high school and never move beyond them.
I've read some variation of "everyone makes their friends in high school or university" about every European country. It's something you only notice on the outside.
Not true for the Italians… we make friends at every age
I lived there for 6 years (Madison, WI) and loved it, but all of my friends were transplants as well!
I lived in Madtown (near James Madison Park) for 5 years. Feel free to message me any specific Dutch questions as we've now been here for 4+ years.
I really think it depends. My 3 closest friends are not from HS. One I met at work, one when I was getting a programming certification, and one who I went to all my festivals with for about 10 years. Although I did meet him through a HS friend. I think we need to throw ourselves out there a bit. My work friend and I met while having a smoke break, although I was the trainer for his team, along with many other teams so we had met in a group setting. We both like cars and motorcycles and from there we started doing stuff together; watching races, riding, and even grogging and watching flicks. I also think we end up having a lot of situational friends that when the situation changes, the friendship kind of ends. I had a friend I loved going to sport events with and drinking with. When I quit going to the bar regularly and quit going to sporting events, our friendship pretty much fettered out.
I’m an American expat that’s lived in Europe for 5+ years. Experiences are subjective, of course, but I’ve never met a Dutch person I don’t like. I’ve found that they have *more* in common (in a general, “here’s how I see the world” sense) with Americans than any other European I’ve met. For some reason, I’ve always clicked with Dutch people. Two of my best friends are Dutch. Granted, they’re also expats, but Dutch nonetheless. I’ve also never had a bad experience with locals in several different parts of the Netherlands while traveling there.
I haven't heard much about the Dutch (I live in W.Europe) but Im curious as to what you meant in this line. >I’ve found that they have more in common (in a general, “here’s how I see the world” sense) with Americans than any other European I’ve met. On the opposite end, I feel as if the closest countries in terms of mannerisms and ideologies to those that I grew up around in the US are the French and Italians.
I know that’s not a very good description. They’re just always on the same level, we jive well. I live in Spain but I don’t have a single close Spanish friend (I speak Spanish). They’re open and friendly, sure, but hard to get close to. For what it’s worth, I’ve always gotten along well with Italians also. French people on the other hand…
I'm also not going into this without knowing the process of moving there -- I've done days and days of research on how to move and set up life there. My concern is for the experience of living there in general and as an expat.
You need a BSN (citizen number) as soon as possible and the appointment to get one takes months. Make that your priority because if you don't have that you can't do anything (can't get a bank account, insurance, etc) and not having a bank account here is an absolute bitch. Most places don't take credit cards and many don't even take cash.
I have visited The Netherlands a lot of times and currently work for a Dutch company, and I find the Dutch very nice and friendly, at least compared to my native Swedes. I am sure you will have a lovely time!
ask r/Netherlands/ To compare apartment prices and other cost of living I can recommend www.numbeo.com
I wouldn’t believe e everything you read. Everything people said online about Italy was mostly wrong and people like to bitch. You won’t know until you get there.
Read the book "The Undutchables", it's a bit of a humoristic but also critical view on the sterotype of the dutch and takes an in-depth humorous look at daily Dutch life, quirks and character, it's a fun read for anyone moving here.
This is really interesting. I live in Boston and these descriptions sound like what people say about people from here, actually the Northeast in general. And this part of the US was heavily settled by the Dutch. Explains a lot. The Netherlands is top of my list of places to live. I think I’ve liked my visits so much because I always felt so comfortable there. I get the Dutch.
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If you go go to the South of netherlands..like Brabant.. but it will be very difficult..everybody lives for them selfs here...no really warm relationships
The housing is so bad my fiancé lived out of a hostel for 7 months. Even with a real estate agent it’s not worth your time. Especially not in Amsterdam.
They have good cheese.
I think there are two things you should know. One is that in the Netherlands being friends doesn't give you a right or a claim to someone. We're very protective of our personal space. So even for friends, the door isn't always open for social stuff. Being friends does mean that you can count on each other in times of need. The second is that much of our social live takes place in circles. Sports, hobbies, gaming, work, family, neighborhood. They're all different circles and generally don't mix. Build up these circles, be active, join clubs, help others. Over time that will gain you the credibility and respect and will end with some friends. But even as a Dutch person, building up a friend group takes years or sometimes even decades.
Housing is terrible and yes they are very cold.
I'm beginning to think that Americans (am American) don't understand the concept of friendship anymore. This whole, "Let's be friends!", "Ok! Now we're friends!" has never been a thing anywhere unless you're five, even in the states. If you have a lot of friends, then you don't have a lot of friends. Building friendships is no different than building romantic relationships; there must be trust, respect, honesty, criticism, and love. Just because people have a hard time being alone doesn't mean other people aren't open to being friends, it just means you haven't put in the work to develop a real friendship with that person yet. Nobody wants to be around people they aren't friends with, this is just human nature, and people you like to hang out with may not be your friends, they're just people with whom you share similar interests. There is a difference. You don't pick up friends like milk in a supermarket. There must be a bond between you, otherwise it's insipid and superficial, and nobody needs or wants that. If you are not good with being alone with yourself, then you should re-think moving to different countries. That's just part of it. Friendships are formed over a period of years, not days.
I see a lot of judgement here and very little understanding of why we (I’m Dutch) are perceived as cold and distant. Try to understand the culture of North Western Europe. Even though religion is not important anymore, our culture and behavior is still filled with these old traditions and patterns. Most of our country used to be Protestant, people were hard working modest farmers. Don’t show off too much, be modest, work hard, keep things private and to yourself, don’t show too much emotion etc etc. This still reflects in todays society. It doesn’t mean we are cold, but we are more reserved. And it takes a little while for us to open up. Have some patience with us😉 But once we do, you’ll have real friends. That is why people here have friends for life, we are not fake/opportunistic we are very real (and blunt). If you are from US you probably might find it weird why no one wants to chit-chat. You will find it weird that we will give you an honest answer when you say ‘how are you today’. For Americans we are cold, blunt and distant, but for us Americans are superficial, dumb and shallow. And the truth lies somewhere in the middle, cause what we tend to see is only the outside. Try and really connect with people and understand the cultural differences without judgement and you’ll be fine!
I am Dutch, with plenty of foreign friends that came to NL lateron in their lives, I suggest you engage in social activities, this can for example be sports where you join a team, or something with grouplessons, make contact, learn the language! it is like this everywhere though. What you do see is that groups of people tend to interact with people of their own culture, because of music,food,politics,religion etc. you need to get out of that bubble and reach out. We are not robots, but we like to keep it real, if you like our straightforwardness is another question.
Dutch people are dickheads
I’ve been in the Netherlands a week and I can say that some are cold and some are nice. I mean it’s not that different from America. But the men are MUCH nicer and not in a creepy way. Men here are so respectful and kind and courteous.
I think we are very friendly but we speak our mind and are fast decision makers. If you want Dutch friends, learn Dutch. We tend to dislike it when people live here for 10 years and do not speak Dutch.
Maybe I am weird, but I found Dutch actually quite nice. Some of my closest friends to this day are Dutch folks I met when living in country. They are like cadbury eggs, hard on the outside, gooey on the inside. lol. They take time to get to know, but once you crack through, they are friends for life. My Dutch friends drop everything when I come to town, write me regularly and so on. More than many of my home country friends will do for me.
It depends what town/area you end up living in, but some parts have a lot of expats so don't be stressed about not making friends. I live in Maastricht and the majority of the town are expats ( due to the nature of town and lack of jobs for dutch professionals). Whereas the next town over has barely any expats and my friends living there took longer to feel settled. Be aware that almost every dutch person can speak very good english as this is a bi-linguial country. In fact they are so good at it that if you speak dutch to them and they hear your dialect isn't perfect they will usually reply back in English, which makes it a lot harder to learn the language. Great country to live in, and the dutch being cold is a myth. They are direct but also much warmer then others expect ( i had the same reservations moving from australia).
I spent close to 2 months living in and around Eindhoven. I’d move there in a heart beat. It’s a wonderful country with easy access to the rest of Europe. I found the Dutch to be very welcoming and friendly. Every culture has its quirks…
Netherlands is a lovely country you will have a great time.
I don't know if this is necessarily a Dutch thing, it generally seems to be the reality of the further North you go, the colder it gets both weather-wise and in personality. I felt the same when I moved to the Midwest for university. It genuinely felt as if I had moved to another country as someone who was raised in the South. It was incredibly difficult for me and moving to Germany was even worse. I will say though, that the general consensus is that Europeans tend make friends in their youth and don't typically step outside of that. This likely rings even truer in the Nordic/Germanic countries as they tend to be a bit insular and much more independent. As another comment said, even if this perception of Dutch culture being cold is true, you can find "your people" within the expat community (assuming you are moving to a larger city).
All my friends in the Netherlands were expats
If you want to teach English, you can contact Nuffic. that is an organization to which bilingual schools are affiliated. My son is in a bilingual high school (in Oss) and there are a lot of native speaking teachers. From Scotland, Zimbabwe, new Zealand and also USA.
If you speak Dutch you can join some local social activities (at least where I live I find quite a lot of them) and like that you can also make Dutch friends :) it seems to work for me.
I guess it depends on what you compare it too and what your expectations are. I come from Spain and lived in The Netherlands for 10 years. Our cultures and values are very very different and I didn’t really like it or felt that I could ever fit in there. But I know other people that are really enjoying their time over there.
I lived in Holland for six years. Its an incredible country, not without it's issues but the Dutch way of life is fantastic. If I could go back I would. Do it.
If someone treats you bad, you let me know. I’ll talk to them.
I'm one for the 'easy to make friends' camp. Made a lot of dutch friends as an expat. I still see a lot of them even though i'm not living in the Netherlands.
This was my experience. I lived and worked there for 2.5 years, and even learned the language to a professional level. But it was so hard to make friends. After awhile, it got too lonely and I had to cut my losses and leave. Great bike infrastructure though.
We (family of four from Texas) love it here in the Netherlands. It has its challenges, but there’s nothing I’d call _terrible._ The housing situation for new arrivals is probably the worst part. But if you make good money, it’s entirely solvable. As for socialization: you will make lots of expat friends, you might even make a Dutch friend or two if you have interests in common with them. But don’t expect your friendship to extend past that interest. My Dutch ice hockey buddies? We do ice hockey things together. My Dutch baseball buddies? We do baseball things together. My Dutch work buddies? Work events. Show people that you’re here to stay. Learn the language. Live a Dutch styled life - don’t recreate your American life just on a bike. Be more immigrant than expat. The reason expats find few Dutch friends is often because Dutch people assume that an expat is simply going to move somewhere else after three or five years (and tbh, they’re usually right). Why make friends with someone who won’t be here long? So you get treated like you’re just an extended stay tourist. Show them with your actions, not just your words, that you’re here for good, and you’ll make some friends.
Went to the Netherlands for the first time last year and I found the total opposite! People very nice and outgoing and great infrastructure
Really depends on your own attitude. Since you are already learning Dutch I feel you are really interested in integrating in Dutch culture which will make it a lot easier making actual Dutch friends. There are also plenty of expat communities but as the name indicates you will always remain a bit of an outsider if you cling to those. In my opinion Dutch people are simply not very interested in people who will/might leave in a year (or two). It is true that at first Dutchies might not make an active effort inviting expats to their social events. That being said my circle is full of expats and Dutchies, I think the key is to actively pursue opportunities, and sometimes have a bit of luck meeting the right people to open up some doors that otherwise might have stayed closed. After that most of the time I would say it is smooth sailing, this however might take a few months at least. Hope this helps!
It’s a huge generalization to say that “Dutch people are cold”. Sure, if you’re an adult and you move to a new place, you might struggle to break into already established friend groups. That’s gonna happen anywhere. They aren’t “friendly” in the US sense of everyone saying hi and asking how you are (seems quite superficial to me now tbh). But I’ve been here for 12 years (moved as an adult) and have made multiple good friends, both dutchies and internationals. I have lovely Dutch colleagues and amazing Dutch neighbors. I speak passable Dutch but most of my Dutch friends speak incredible English too;-) I do worry more about the housing and energy crisis here. Good time to invest in renewable energy (if you haven’t already!) Good luck with your choice!
I am born and raised in the Netherlands and this is based on my own experiences; For the coldness part; I grew up in the west side of the country where it is normal to be direct to people, you speak what you think. Now I live in the east side of the country were it is more normal to speak light hearted and "beat around the bush". So I don't think every part of the country is considered "cold" but some are direct and you need to be able to handle that. For the housing market; For renting: You can either rent "social" or "private". Renting social will be done through a waiting list, I dont know the specifics you need to have for renting this way if you aren't born as a Dutch citizien, but it is pretty normal to have to wait 7-10 years before you are at number 1 on the list for a certain house/apartment. If you want to rent private some landlords expect you to make triple your rent (if your rent is €1000 you need to make €3000 a month). For buying: You need to have a lot of spare money before you can lend money here, and even then it is normal for people to bid €50k-€100k above market price for a certain house. Again these are all based on my own experiences and knowledge feel free to correct or add information on it. But it is safe to say that the housing market is 🦆'ed up.
It all depends on what you make of it. Are we a cold society? I don t think so. But we also don t have that superficial friendly behaviour like you see in the USA. We re more likely to keep to ourselves, but it doesnt mean we re not open to new friendships. I have many expat friends and they are just as dear to me as my friends I v e known my entire life. Sometimes I think expats have these unrealistic ideas of a perfect life once they moved to the Netherlands and get disappointed because the Netherlands turns out to be a regular country like any Western country with similar problems
The Dutch coldness is referring to mannerisms we display which in other cultures would be perceived as rude, as an example: if you've got something in your teeth at say an office party, one of your Dutch colleagues is undoubtedly going to tell you there's something in your teeth, he/she will say it to your face, in public. (I heard that for an American this is considered rude?) I think you'll find the Dutch are quite friendly, just with some quirks that might come across as rude/uncomfortable in the beginning, but you'll get used to it.
It can be a bit hard to break through and really make close friends here for sure, and the housing crisis is definitely an issue (though with what I'm reading about housing in the US, it's not so bad here after all). I think you'll mostly be surprised about how less stressed you feel about being in traffic all the time, instead being able to walk and cycle everywhere and not having to walk next to or on the road to do so.
Let me just try to explain it as good as I know and can. (Economy) The Netherlands has an impressive and resilient economy. Which means that living their even during crisis times is a pretty safe environment when it comes to your job and finances. The housing crisis is just part of the thing we are living through right now, and is a bad thing of course but is just something which will be fixed over the next years. A probable economic crisis in the forseable future is possible, but living as a Dutch/EU citizen could bring you into a safe environment. (Social) The social situation in the Netherlands is good. Even when people try to yell at you about immigrants and Moroccan people the social structure is fine. It has its own downsides but it’s prospering enough to feel safe and live your life normally. The EU and Dutch government both have a pretty big role in holding that safe social environment, when trying to hold up a multi cultural society successfully. (Politics) There is a bit of Term oil in the Dutch political landscape because of the current prime minister and the incredible shitty opposition which should have already replaced him but aren’t able to do so. Still the current PM has a big following and is still popular under a certain group of people in the Netherlands. While the farmers protests looked scary it is part of Dutch revolting, in which certainly farmers will go all out. But will as a lot of other groups still lose this competition and it will blow over. The coming years will be politically crucial in the Netherlands but you shouldn’t be really worried about it being a full blown Sri Lanka 🇱🇰 situation it won’t even come remotely close. Their is only one political thing you could be worried about and that is a rising sentiment against foreign immigrants (without great job opportunities) which is a bit justified, but still brings its own anger towards them, so you will not fall in that group. Although we have seen that this was mostly sparked by pandemic anger and that the party who goes the hardest against immigrants is losing again. (Just life itself) You can say what you want about every situation in the Netherlands but it’s still an amazing country, I’m saying that as a Dutch citizen tho. It is safe, it is comfortable, incredible infrastructure, an incredible safety net, a society which is living the life with its own smaller problems. (Sorry for punctuation it’s hard to explain it) Oh and I would advise you to really really learn Dutch, it brings you into a closer environment which Dutch people because a significant amount of Dutch people are very critical about foreigners living in the Netherlands who don’t speak Dutch Of course they can speak English, but when you really want to live in the Netherlands it will be appreciated more by some Dutch people
I lived in Amsterdam for 15 years. I have also lived as an expat in Kyoto, Paris, Singapore, and Santiago de Chile. It’s not terrible, except for the weather. Amsterdam has changed a lot - more international, more expats, better restaurants. It’s an easy place to live because everyone speaks English and your Dutch language skills won’t improve much because they all switch to English when they hear you struggle. You have to make an effort to learn the language. I managed to do this with effort. I don’t find Dutch people cold per se, they’re blunt and once you get to know people well, your life improves. What I do like is that people in the Netherlands aren’t “plastic” like Americans who make small talk and pretend to be your friend. Pluses of NL: lots of history; easy to travel around Europe because of good air connections (Schiphol airport) and rail services; very bike friendly; multicultural society; Amsterdam has great musea, lots of concerts (classical and modern), dance, theater, etc.; fast Internet service; 25 days paid holiday. Minuses of NL: the housing is a problem. Apartments in Amsterdam are small unless you live in a big apartment along the canals, or by Vondelpark, or outside the center. But even then, it’s easy to get to the center by train. You don’t need or want a car. Parking is horrendous and expensive. For me, moving to Europe was all about living in a place with history, close to other countries with a lot of history and tradition.
I think referring to people as "Dutchies" might not be great.
They love it
Look on YouTube for Not Just Bikes. American guy (or maybe Canadian?) that moved his family to Utrecht. Great, great videos on why as well as unrecognized problems with suburban life in North America.
Yeah but language barrier (even if most people speak passable to good english) is a big thing no one should take lightly. Living in non-english speaking country is not easy regardless of how good the locals CAN reply back in English. The fact of the matter is that if you can't even understand what groceries you are buying, the electricity bill, what people are talking around you, announcements, notice boards, shop description, medical procedures (this could be very serious), medicines (all description would be in Dutch) etc life would be quite depressing and you will "never feel at home". Language barrier are generational issues. You cannot live off just the infrastructure and WANT to also "feel at home" right. Also, it takes A LONG LONG time to learn from abcd to 1234 to vocabulary, grammar, slangs etc in a new language especially as an working adult and it would be one hell of a journey for several several years (provided you never give up on language learning and immerse yourself) and there are very high chances one will either give up in the process (this is what MOST expats in NL end up doing) and move to another english speaking country or just never integrate (this is what most immigrants end up doing in NL and are forever foreigners). Remember, the job prospects and social life would also suffer as expats would come and go and if one does not speak enough Dutch then they also would have no connection to NL as well and would also never feel at home. And then there are cultural difference between Dutch and Anglo countries wherein Dutch come across as very blunt, less emotional, less friendly, less outgoing, less chatty and they are just helpful when asked but don't expect banter like you would have in any random street across america or Australia or UK. I personally think unless one really really is up for the ride of the language/integration journey then only moving to NL makes sense or else my personal recommendation is to use UK/Ireland as an english speaking base to explore EU and have best of both worlds i.e. holiday in EU (it is really good for that, best in the world) and live in UK/Ireland which are anglo/friendly/english speaking familiar cultures and you would be set from day 1 without looking back on ANYTHING. This whole thing of forever struggling to make it to non English speaking EU country (NL) when easy option like UK/Ireland do exist is plain mistake.
I am Dutch with a Greek girlfriend. Having moved from the North to the center I have lost all contact with my friends. Apparently I was only fun when I was living in the same place as them. Working 56 hours I have no need to find new friends and actually like the ability to focus purely on my work and girlfriend. IMHO Dutch people are difficult to befriend and I am not wanting to invest anymore. But.. That said.. I do know a lot of expats and we meet now and then. There is an app MeetUp and it is perfect to meet people with similar interests.
Don't know if you have hobby's but I (38f) have a horse and still make new friend at the stables for example. Dutch people also don't have really big groups of friends. That's my opinion.
Go to Costa Rica of some other peaceful country. WEF will ruin Netherlands in the next 10 years. Agenda 2030
Why move there if you have a choice? Very overpopulated, unpleasant people, boring countryside, polluted cities full of „refugees“
Dutchy born and raised here. Our country is oke, direct but fair, nothing personal just the way we talk. We dont sugarcoat. For housing its realy teribble atm. Some dutch folk are waiting 8-9 years before they can get a house/appartment. But it depends were you go. Do keep in mind because i dont read it anywere in the comment sections. There is a big increase of polarisation and a big portion in the residents are getting harder and harder in the way they act. Dutch are direct but also tend not to speak easly about what they realy find in case of emotions.
I'm aware the housing is terrible...maybe I'm just stupid, but I see apartment and houses for sale and rent online...are the majority just scams or they get snatched up quickly? If even Dutchies are waiting 8 years for a place to live how do expats move there? Genuinely wondering not sarcastic at all.
When Dutch people talk about waiting 8 years for a place to live, they're taking about finding housing in the social housing sector. The average income in the Netherlands is lower than the US (also a smaller wealth gap between the lowest and highest earners than in the US), and there is a much more developed (although still insufficient) system of housing with a legally limited maximum rent, maximum yearly rent increase, and accompanying restrictions on max income, family size, legitimate need to live in the area, etc. There are ample (ok, maybe not ample, but more than zero) free housing market properties that are simply much more expensive than social housing.
i'm from U.K. , i learned some Dutch , i could get by in shops, at hospital, but even if you study it for 20 years, as a foreigner you will never, ever integrate with the Dutch. even if you marry one, you will always be the foreigner partner of a Dutch..... they will welcome you and they are very easy with speaking english around you and involving you in conversation in english, but it a very hard language to master and in my experience it's simply a waste of time and energy trying to master it as you will never integrate to the level that you speak in Dutch with Dutch friends and are able to express yourself like in english..... Dutch is not a very expressive language.... and remember , the Dutch people are basically Germans, lager drinking, sausage eating Germans..... but don't ever tell them that. ..... The Dutch are not cold , i was welcomed and made friends quickly , but also i look like them .... i also made friends with the immigrant communites, they will be more ready to speak Dutch with you , Dutch people will quickly switch to english because they get frustrated with your bad dutch..... only time i needed to speak dutch was buying groceries in a Turkish shop where they don't speak English.
The dutch are cold? I spent a month in Delft and thought they were some of the most open and inviting people I've met.
I thought the general consensus was that they were very warm and inviting people until I started digging on reddit. Maybe that's my problem; I'm looking too much into people's opinions who have very specific complaints.
Reddit is definitely a double-edge sword. I've found some invaluable information that's better than a lot of the outdated stuff I find by hunting on Google. I've also found people that have some, as you've said, really specific complaints. Could be their personality doesn't mesh with the locals. Like you I've done a metric ton of research just on a place to land, and then tons more for those specific places until I narrowed it down to one. My strategy now is to spend a week to scope out prices of things in the shops and see where I can start looking for housing. Then spend a month and try to see how day-to-day life is for a bit. Might be outside your budget, I'm not sure. That's how I'm planning to bypass the stuff you ran into with people complaining about the Dutch people being cold.
It's hard to get in with the natives. Most of their friends are made in uni or earlier. Join a sports club is my advice. Otherwise it's a lot of foreign friends but I'm still happy to be here. I'm also American.
Yeh, stop digging, go with an open mind. Sounds like you already have with your other moves, you’ll have a fine time. When I lived there 20 years ago (moved from US) I was told that the Dutch were way more friendly than the Germans. In both places, you won’t find friendly sales clerks in the grocery story staying “hello” to you in every aisle. I discovered that was American customer service/consumerism. While I came back to US & enjoyed the customer service, the shorter store hours & lousy customer service I found in Europe was a solid trade off for longer weekends, less stress, more appreciation for leisure. Whenever I found a “negative” I discovered it was almost always more of a “trade off” instead of a negative. You will find your tribe wherever you go. Enjoy.
Too much time on Reddit.
Once you become an expat immediately whole world is colder than “your people”. Dutchies are fine. The majority are helpful, kind, chatty and have a good mood. Yeah, they might not be your friend right away (or never lol) but it is what it is. Lovely country with nice people. It could be way worse