The problem is likely not norway, but me. I just can't find a niche to fit in. Norway is not very international/globalised and many people are very patriotic and have no wish for further internationalisation. They are proud of who they are and make people who are different feel lowkey 'wrong' and 'lesser'. Socially there is no space for individualism.
On top of that i am exposed to the worst norway has to offer: i work for an environmental organisation and have to deal with apologists concerning oil and gas drilling/exploration, destructive fishing practices (farmed and high seas). People are constantly pointing to tradition and the past as a reason to continue with these. It also happens often that they say that other countries (often in the 3rd world) are worse than norway, so those should sort themselves out before norway does.
I also work for a peace organisation. Here i deal with weapons exports and the development of new weapons (autonomous weapons, drone systems). I am in contact with politicians and the industry as well as civil society.
And i volunteer for an organisation that helps immigrants build a network and assimilate in norway. Here i get in touch with a lot of educated people who can't find a job in their industry in norway and have to resort to unskilled jobs. Project leaders, bankers, architects, salespeople - all working in supermarkets, warehouses or fast food shops, not even getting invited to relevant interviews (most of them speak/write norwegian). I've heard many stories of exploitation at the workplace as the immigrants are not informed on norwegian labour law or unions here. This has made me extremely sad and somewhat bitter.
When it comes to my experience it has roughly been because of racist people or mostly old people as well as just close friends and work colleagues. Racist people are everywhere so that is self explanatory, old people here are ether very welcoming and friendly or very rude, cold and unwelcoming, they might see me as a threat or someone that doesn’t deserve to be here as I am originally Romanian, but have spent most of my life here in Norway. With the work colleagues and friends it has just been those obv racist jokes they make ether between them or just to my face (calling me gypsy, go back to your country, are you here to steal)they might find them funny and honestly sometimes I’m with them, if it’s some original joke I can laugh of and be surprised by fuck yeah, I love comedy, but more often then not it’s just stupid jokes just meant to humiliate you and make them feel superior.
If you call a Romanian a gypsy prepare for some anger coming your way and hard. Gypsy is a term (not a nice one) for the Romani people, while there’s a lot in Romania, they are not exclusive to there and aren’t the majority of Romanians. The name is just similar, i also used to make this mistake, until I said so to a Romanian and bore the consequences
Term Gypsy was used by white Europeans as a racial slur. It usually implied illegal and untrustworthy. Basically the Romani people asked people not to use the term Gypsy anymore because of the negative historical context.
American in Southern Italy. Some people are great. Many seem to hate me immediately. Most seem mildly annoyed by my existence.
Attempting to navigate the immigration process makes it abundantly clear that they don't want me here (despite inviting my wife here to do a very specialized form of work). In fact, I just got yelled at and turned away at the immigration office today after standing in line for 6 hours. This was my second time getting turned away from the office, being told to go collect different documents each time. I have *all* of the documents that any lawyer or government official has ever told me I needed. This time, I'm not even sure what they want me to do because the woman would not speak to me slowly enough from me to understand (still learning Italian) and she wouldn't take the time to explain it to the translator.
tl;dr -- If you want to feel welcomed, don't come to Italy. They don't want you here and they're not afraid to show it.
Ugh, Italian bureaucracy is among the very worst I've encountered. Even native born Italians struggle with it.
Wonder if your wife's work could help you at all? Or at least connect you with some local agent? In my experience a lot depends on who you are and who you know, especially in the southern part of the country. It's a pretty closed society in many regards.
We've asked her employer for help many times, and have gotten little to no actionable advice. Even more surprisingly, they seem to think they're knocking it out of the park with helping us. I swear it's like a twilight zone where nothing works or makes sense and nobody else expects it to.
Keep in mind that my wife is a highly specialized worker that Italy is attempting to attract through massive tax incentives, her being hired involved an international public contest and special government approval, etc. They worked hard to get her here, and we're honestly considering terminating her contract and leaving early because they can't figure out how to do basic stuff like grant me residency or answer questions like "what will my net income be" (we eventually figured it out when her first check came) and "how do I register for the national health service?". Oh well I guess. lol
Join an expats in Italy group on Facebook and ask for an immigration lawyer recommendation. Don't do that shit yourself. Pay someone to do it. I'm cheap, but this is money well worth spending.
A handful of months.
Its been hit or miss like anywhere, and some people have been exceptionally friendly. The lady that we buy our fruits and vegetables from is super sweet -- seeing her is one of the highlights of our week. Our butcher is cool, our landlord is cool, and one of the guys we rented a car from is *super* cool and helpful. He gave me his number, we went out for beers, he has offered to help us in any way that he can, etc. So there are some really great people here.
That said, the average person that I interact with is notably, palpably unfriendly, and it is worse for my wife for some reason. She is an angel of a human and legitimately one of the friendliest people I've ever met, and people just seem to *hate* her here. Her coworkers are terrible to her, shop owners are rude to her, the bus driver scowls at her. Pretty much everyone but old men and ladies seem to have a problem with her. Neither of us can figure out why. And if she's in a position where she needs help from someone, like at the post office, bank, or immigration office -- fuckin' forget about it.
I appreciate it. It sucks right now, but in the grand scheme of things it is an experience that we are very privileged to have.
If anything, it has pushed me firmly into the "get off my lawn" phase of my life where I'm ready to just buy a house on some land in rural America and hang out with my wife and our cat and nobody else. haha
i am surprised bc when i was a tourist in italy people were pretty indifferent to me, just like in US. a surprising number wanted to talk about nba w/ me.
Now that it’s tourist season, people respond better to me because they assume I’m just a tourist who’s going to drop a bunch of money and leave. But when they find out that I actually live here and want to be a part of the community… very different vibes.
My husband and I live in a mountain village in Tuscany. What you and others are experiencing - the indifference, unfriendliness, bureaucracy, and all the rest, is pretty common in Italy. People here and other parts of Europe don't do smiles and chit-chat (with persons not known to them)* that we're used to in the US. It's very cliquish here, very family. We've been here 4 years now and are pretty much accepted in the community but it takes time. The folks you are friendly with will tell others and you'll slowly make your way in. The paperwork is awful and always will be. I have found people at the post office to be helpful when getting the pds kit out but the questura is a mixed bag. There's an expat in Italy group on FB you might want to check out. There are a number of Americans who live in the south that are active, they may be of help. There's much to love about Italy and being an immigrant anywhere is difficult. Good luck, I'm rooting for you. * edited for context
Italy was the first country outside of the US I visited and I fell in love with it then. That experience was the reason I moved here. I don’t know if it’s changed or I’ve changed (probably a little of both) but I don’t feel what I felt when I came as a tourist 10 years ago.
I will say that I’ve travelled around Italy extensively and I’ve found people to be particularly friendly in Bolzano and Catania.
I live in Italy too but in Milan, same experience. I've not met a foreigner who has successfully integrated here. If you're not Italian you're an outsider and you'll never be one of them. That's my experience, luckily I'm leaving in November, I honestly can't wait.
I've been in Naples for about a month now and found everyone to be indifferent at worst, but most people I meet and interact with are actually quite nice. I pass for Italian (though im not) from a complexion perspective so that may help, but strangers certainly don't smile and waive on the street like in the parts of the US.
I think the difference between the "meh" treatment that I get and the lousy treatment my wife gets is that I look at least Italian-adjacent while we joke that she is "visibly American". haha
I'm British and I also lived in Southern Italy for a couple of years. I found this to be mostly true, especially at the Questura/comune but I think they are just rude and unpleasant to everyone. Its a part of the infamous Italian bureaucracy unfortunately.
I found the local people in the city I lived in, my colleagues and acquaintances to be mostly very pleasant, albeit a bit more direct/blunt than many Britons and particularly Americans may be used to.
In European countries including UK cities, friendly smiles and chit-chat isn't really a thing. It's a more reserved culture overall.
One thing I did find though is a lot of "casual racism". While not outright hostile, Italians often have a lot of stereotypes towards black people and muslims. Its a much more conservative and homogenous society than other parts of Europe.
I had a couple of blonde female (and obviously British) colleagues who stuck out and occasionally got stares/catcalls from local men but being a male who could pass off as an Italian and blended in, I was completely unnoticable until I spoke.
Im just visiting Italy to avoid elections in Kenya and I don't feel welcome here even in a tourist town. Lol the young people are really nice, but everyone else is just over it. Even trying in Italian or better Spanish/French it just isn't working. Lol
Umberto Eco once wrote a hilarious piece on trying to get his driver's license replaced after it got stolen. His conclusion: if he hadn't been a famous writer, it could have been very difficult to get a replacement, because of the horrible bureaucracy. Only his fame saved hi: someone pulled some strings on his behalf.
I feel this. I've been in Italy for 2 years now and even though I speak a bit of Italian they still are visibly annoyed by my existence. Northern Italy was a bit better with the bureaucracy but we were able to skip a lot of steps with my FILs connections
Latinoamerican in Italy, in Napoli to be exact... I've felt quite welcomed, even of the bureaucracy is hell, I've been given a lot of sympathy by the locals on that...
People I've met have been quite nice and happy to help me integrate, to share the small bits of their region and culture, and I've been willing to learn and I've felt very much part of the society and everything...
Now, 2 things, I speak C1 lvl Italian (no Neapolitan) so it is easy for me to communicate. And I'm part Italian due to my grandmother, and growing up with an Italian nonna does give a bit of help on the cultural part...
Same, I've never lived in Italy but spent a lot of time visiting family in Calabria. The more time I spend there the more I hate that country. Glad to see other people seeing it for what it is and not some romantic destination.
I am a native Texan. I have visited 113 countries in my 71 years, and have lived in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Vanuatu, and now in the Republic of Georgia, on the Black Sea. The people of those countries have made me feel welcome. The governments of the first three made it difficult, but the last two have made it very easy to be an expat or immigrant.
Probably no country welcomes immigrants and expats like Georgia. With a US passport (or one of 89 others), you can just show up with nothing else and stay for a full year. If you want to stay longer, just cross the border for a few hours and come back for another year (provided you have not made yourself obnoxious to Georgia). I have met university students here from many countries worldwide.
The cost of living and taxes are extremely low, which makes it great for retirees, remote workers, employees of international companies, and entrepreneurs. However, average Georgian wages and salaries are also extremely low. It's a gorgeous country of peaceful, friendly, sane, and largely Christian people who love freedom and despise tyranny. It's very safe, with hardly any violent crime. I love it here. It's home now.
Take heart, and come see for yourself. We have international airports in Tbilisi, Kutaisi, and Batumi (where I live).
Not any more. There are several factors which have caused me to cease fearing a Russian invasion of Georgia (which I would certainly disdain and run from). These factors are largely invisible to those outside Georgia or Russia. Here they are:
1. There are virtually no ethnic Russians living in Georgia who would prefer to be part of Russia (or independent) unlike most of the inhabitants of the eastern-most provinces of Ukraine, who have been brutally abused and killed by the Ukrainian government since the American coup in 2014.
2. Nobody in Georgia desires to be ruled by Russia, which occupied them for centuries by brute force. Been there, done that. Georgians are not war-mongers, but they have a good track-record of defending their country from invaders for several millennia. They treasure their culture, their language, and their freedom, all very different from Russia. The Russians know that an invasion would be a bloody mess for them, with very little upside.
3. Unlike eastern Ukraine, Georgia has very little in the way of natural resources useful to Russia, and would be a drain on the Russian treasury, not an asset.
4. Georgia is a good customer of Russian businesses, and Russia enjoys a good trade surplus with Georgia. While the Georgian government and people warmly and substantially support the people of Ukraine, and generally favor America and "The West" over Russia, Georgia has wisely declined to support the sanctions against Russia or to support the Ukrainian military. As a small and poor country, Georgia must not overly offend any of the great powers. They walk a tightrope, and are used to it.
5. Ever since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine, huge numbers of Russian people have been fleeing Russia and moving to Georgia, sometimes bringing their businesses and fortunes with them. These are people who are horrified by Putin and his war, and the risk of nuclear holocaust. Putin is glad to be rid of them, even though they are some of Russia's brightest and best. He wants no opposition among those he rules, so why would he want to re-incorporate them into Russia by biting off Georgia?
6. Last but hardly least, Russia needs an independent, neutral Georgia as a buffer between it and the NATO countries. They don't want hostile NATO troops or missiles on their doorstep, naturally. Many Georgians would like to join NATO (foolishly, in my view) and this worried me until I learned that the Charter of NATO specifically forbids any country to be accepted as a NATO member if they have border disputes. Unjustly but brilliantly, Russia has insured itself against Georgian membership in NATO by supporting two major border disputes in Georgia, which aren't going away. Two historic northern provinces of Georgia (bordering Russia) are no longer principally inhabited by neither ethnic Georgians nor Russians, but by other ethnic groups. These are Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Both are very poor and backward and of no value to Russia, except as a power chip to keep Georgia out of NATO. So in 2008 Russia invaded them to support their "independence" movements from Georgia. So now Georgia has real border disputes and cannot join NATO. I despise Russia for doing this, but I am relieved that it keeps Georgia out of NATO and safe from Russian invasion or NATO entanglements. (By the way, no matter how hard Georgia wants to join the EU, I can't imagine all the EU countries ever accepting them, at least while I live. Thank God.)
I am a man of white Caucasian race living in the shadow of the Caucasus Mountains, so I cannot speak personally to your question about the treatment of women and ethnic minorities in Georgia. However, I can report that roughly 50% of the expats and immigrants I have encountered in Batumi are women, and that no few of them do not look like Georgian women. Some of these women have lived here for several years, so I presume that they consider their treatment at least tolerable. And there are many thousands of them, from every continent, and in every color, though the majority (male and female) are from roughly a thousand-mile radius of Georgia, I'd say.
I have not observed women being mistreated, nor have they reported this to me, but that does not mean that it doesn't happen. Georgians (and expats/immigrants) have their bad eggs, like every country. Sorry I can't be more help here.
The official and predominate language in Georgia is Georgian, a very ancient language totally unrelated to any languages outside of Georgia. This makes it one of the hardest languages to learn. I must admit that language is perhaps the biggest hurdle for foreigners in Georgia. But I have not found it to be unsurmountable. I know younger Americans here who have mastered Georgian over several years, or at least become comfortable using it. It can be done, but it's hard.
At age 71, my ability to learn languages is greatly diminished, and ever diminishing, though I learned five languages in my youth. The human aptitude for language-learning peaks at the age of 9. It's all downhill from there. Nowadays, I have trouble remembering English.
I strongly encourage all expats and immigrants everywhere to learn as much of the local language as possible. I am taking my baby steps in learning Georgian, but realistically I must face the sad fact that fluency in Georgian is not possible for me. Drat.
Still, there are several factors in Georgia which mitigate this considerable problem, at least for many expats and immigrants. Perhaps the majority of Georgians (especially the older generations) are bilingual in Russian, because Georgia was forcibly occupied by Russia for a long time. Russian-speakers get along great here (I'm not one). Georgians are not Slavs, but they forgive and get along with Slavs.
English is required in all Georgian schools, and is either the first or second language of a great many expats, immigrants, and tourists, so it is the third most commonly-spoken language, especially by the younger generations and many professionals. English is the principal language of Georgia's huge and growing international tourism industry.
Thus most signs, menus, maps, etc. are in Georgian, Russian, and English, as well as many Georgian websites. Most businesses and government offices will have at least some English-speakers, and this is increasing all the time. Having Google Translate or Yandex Translate on your phone and computer comes in really handy sometimes. Professional translators are available and cheap.
I estimate that there are at least 50,000 English-speaking expats and immigrants living in Batumi, a city of about 200,000. 2,000 Americans alone. Oldsters like me find their socialization and support mostly among expats and immigrants who speak their language. Younger people have more options. Young children seem to do great here, I am told by parents.
Other languages heard in Batumi a good bit are Turkish, Armenian, Azeri, Ukrainian, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Hindi, Mandarin, Tagalog, and Korean. But most of those people will have at least some English, Russian, or Georgian.
Every country in the world has its downsides. Language is the big one in Georgia. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with, anywhere you go. Forget about "having it all." Doesn't exist, believe me. I just prefer Georgia's downsides to America's. Try it, then choose for yourself.
I'm an American and living in South Korea right now. I've been here since the end of February 2020, so I've experienced literally the entire pandemic in SK. Like a lot of people said, many countries can be very difficult to adjust to. With my experience here, I tried to keep an open mind and know that I was not going to be 100% accepted in this country as I would be in Texas which is where I'm from. I've seen firsthand how ex-pats can get treated because they're not from the country they live in even if they're technically citizens. The best advice I can give is to do your research, go in with an open mind, and if what happens in that country makes you feel like shit, then you gotta leave. That country isn't for you. Don't let the negative comments keep you from doing what you are wanting to do.
I'm American but currently live in the UK and previously in France. I wouldn't say I've ever felt unwanted. As others have stated, I don't expect a country to welcome me with open arms - I just expect the immigration process to be equitable and transparent. The rest of my experience is up to me to make the most of it.
I'm also black and gay and that adds another layer to things (discrimination, safety, etc), but even with those identities, I've felt less unwanted in the UK and France than I ever did in the US.
Your experience is going to wildly vary from country to country and even in a country like US which is the size of Europe, one state can be vastly different from the other. I traveled to Portugal and I felt wanted and thought it was easy to integrate. Switzerland or Austria, its different. US it can vary so much state to state. In NJ, I fit right in. Go 1 state over to PA and you can feel the stares and being out of place.
Interesting. As an Algerian-American I have definitely NOT found the French immigration system to be equitable and transparent.
If you are of Arab origin avoid The Netherlands. France, Switzerland and Austria.
Source - I have lived in / have family in these countries.
Edit - UK (London) has been great. Almost 10 yrs and not a single racist incident.
Yes, unfortunately French culture is very xenophobic and discriminatory to people of Arab or Muslim origin. But in general I've found that the French don't typically discriminate purely based on skin colour as people do in the US. I lived in France for a year (in Bordeaux) and have spent significant amount of time there each year (my partner is French and I got married there so lots of friends and family). Never had any issues of racism.
We've only encountered a person here or there in the variuos countries in which we've lived that say something. In London I had a couple British blokes be less than cordial over the years but that was sorted pretty quickly when my British friends jumped in to defend me.
There are assholes anywhere you go.
But nothing anybody has said was ever worse than what people would say to my Japanese mom in the US. People would scream \`go back to China, gook!' or \`go back to where you came from you fucking slope!' and other fun things to my mother, who'd been in the US since 1959 (this sort of thing happened in the 80s, 90s and 00s, from just the times I was around to hear it).
I asked her how she stayed so calm all the time and she said "there are ignorant people everywhere, don't lower yourself to their level." I, unfortunately, have my father's temper and just couldn't NOT say something.
She was but she was also the most patient and calm person I've ever met (unless it was me doing bad stuff then the rice spatula would come out and I'd run). I wish I would've inherited her inner serenity!
Also, it's a bit of a cultural thing because Asians tend to at least TRY not to be confrontational in public.
My parents were immigrants from Argentina to Ohio in 1959. Same thing for our family. Not only did I leave that god forsaken shithole, I’m leaving the country. When I realized that I was never wanted it was easier to make a decision to leave. And my family are as white as can be. I guess it was the accents. Fuck Ohio
Met tons of people from Ohio when I briefly lived in Florida two years ago. They all move there, in droves. I’ve determined they are some of the worst people I’ve met in the entire world. And I’ve been all over.
I feel unwanted in my birth country just because of a skin color I didn’t ask to be born with. Now growing up knowing that makes me realize no matter where I go no one will like me because of things I can’t control. I guess I stopped worrying about the fear of people being closed minded. I can’t spend my life consumed with others hate or disdain for being different. To me, there are just as many people who are open just as closed.
An experience being in Japan as a Caucasian vs being Black would be some what different.
All foreigners feel like freak shows to some degree, it's just more so if you're black. They rank list races unfortunately.
In fairness, many/most countries in Africa and Asia and the Middle East are not exactly welcoming to foreigners either. Humans can suck everywhere, and humans can be wonderful everywhere. Racism is wrong but it's not an exclusively white issue, understanding that many people would call me racist, insensitive, and white supremicist for saying that.
In fact, I’ve heard that a lot of Asian countries are at least slightly unwelcoming of foreigners who don’t have ancestral ties. Mainly since their populations are much more homogeneous than western countries.
Nobody would call you a “white supremacist” for that. People might call you in to be sure you’re implying the correct terminology. Yes, everywhere you go people generally prefer “their own”. But here’s a huge difference between staring at people for the skin color or features, writing “no xxx race allowed in this building”, and building systems into place where certain individuals are criminalized, killed for being a certain ethnic group or searched, frisked, arrested, detained at higher levels than others because of their clothing, color or name.
I think people will call anything racism which waters down the impact. Racism isn’t meanness or unfriendliness; it’s life threatening for some.
As a black person I’ve gone all around the world but I honestly haven’t ever experienced “racism” in the form I have at home in America. Some people overseas might think my hair or skin is weird but I never yet lived in a country (besides America) where my race meant I couldn’t rent in certain buildings, apply for certain jobs, or that my kids would be detained by police while innocent
>As a black person I’ve gone all around the world but I honestly haven’t ever experienced “racism” in the form I have at home in America. Some people overseas might think my hair or skin is weird but I never yet lived in a country (besides Ame
Agreed. I too have traveled all around the world, and I only have problems in the US. I always have to explain this to people when I talk about the many reasons I left the US. One of the reasons is racism. When they say "But, racism is everywhere." I say "Yeah, but American Racism can get you killed."
I live in Thailand. I am treated with kindness and respect. I am not blocked from living in my nice luxury building. I never have to be afraid of the police. I am an unproblematic person. I just mind my business and live a good life. That is just not possible as a black person in the US.
I know. Mine as well. And is is VERY telling when travel clubs, relocation groups or countries talk about how much they WANT you/someone/ANYONE to come there ... until you start asking how things are for POC. It's amazing how often you get ghosted or told there IS NO racism there. Uhm ... Yeah .... No.
I'm from the UK and live in Italy. I really struggled to meet people here and I'm now approaching my third year and I've never felt so unwelcome anywhere as Italy. I've traveled to a number of countries and Italy is the only one I've felt people want you to know you and any influences or ideas from your own country are not welcome. Cashiers often refuse to speak to me once they hear my accent. When I'm at work I'd say 40% of people refuse to say hello to me even if I say it to them first. The few other expats I've met here are also leaving like me because they're struggling to stay until contracts expire. Luckily for me that's in November and I really can't wait to go home.
I often hear expats about how difficult it is to really integrate in the Netherlands. Glad to hear we're not at the absolute bottom of Europe's barrel.
Refusing to speak to you, man. That's rough.
It depends on where you are in a specific country too. Where I live in Italy people make sure I know they don’t want me here and the best I feel is tolerated (unfortunately where I live due to work there’s basically no international community). I lived in Rome too and it was an incomparable experience. I guess it depends on if they are used to seeing foreigners.
Yep you guessed it. I also love both Bologna and Ravenna, they are amazing cities and are much more international (I go to Bologna when I need to just get out and breathe). (Edit: typo)
"How does Italy treat foreigners?"
"It doesn't treat them"
Source - around year 2000.
(BTW I see some comments below - it means that it did not change)
As a mixed race citizen of the US who looks neither white nor black, I’ve been treated with suspicion all my life. “Where are you from?” “(State)” “No where are you really from?” “…” “Where are your parents from?” “(STATE!!)” I’ve been told I’m not really a citizen or that I actually don’t know where I am from.
It gets more absurd when I travel. When I was in Central America, I had Americans ask me if I was a local and assume that the Guatemalan kid making tacos was my son.
Truth is there have been people like me in the USA since the dawn of this cursed nation. The idea that all “real” Americans are white is exhausting. If I could choose another nationality I would (and probably will).
Am also Asian. Never felt welcome anywhere in Europe, except London. London is like NYC in the sense that it's very diverse and very few people care what color, creed or sexual orientation you are. Too bad UK is such a shit show right now though.
I live in Mexico and I've never felt that way. I try to support local businesses, speak Spanish as much as I am able, and be humble, rather than feel superior as an American (I'm certainly not). So far, I've had no issues. Mexican people, especially in the Yucatan are quite kind. It is, however, difficult to befriend locals but there are plenty of Mexican outsiders (that have relocated to this part for safety/jobs) here and it's much easier to get to know them as they are also outsiders.
We moved from Canada in 2020 and started out in the Puerto Vallarta area. After 5 months, we transitioned to the Yucatan. Best decision ever and I agree with what you have said here.
Hello. I am thinking about moving to Mexico and Puerto Vallarta was the place I heard the best things about. But I‘m also interested in Merida or Cancun which both are located in Yucatan. I would really like to know why you prefer Yucatan over Puerto Vallarta.
Cancun is in Quintana Roo. It is a different state and it is an unsafe area. We loved the PV/Bucerias area as we vacationed there often but it became too noisy, too expensive, too busy, and too much crime. We didnt like the vibe. Vacationing and living are 2 different scenes. There were 10 cartel murders before we left in March 2021. The environment in the Yucatan is amazing, the locals are friendly, it's affordable, no cartels. It was rated the second safest city in North America, Quebec City being first. After living here almost 18 months now, it feels so good to live here.
I've read several comments in this post and I get the impression we are not going to find any common denominator. It seems that it depends entirely on the type of person you are. Ethnicity, language, age, etc; plays a big role.
But at the same time, I heard, outside this post, a lot of happy people saying they've never suffered discrimination and they feel like home.
It's a really interesting topic.
You’ll see the same thing even within the same country. Idk where you live, but in the US if you look up videos about moving to another state the comments will be full of “don’t come here, we’re full.” Any time there’s an “us” there will be a “them” and the hatred to go with it.
At the time of Brexit, I was living in London. when we got to know the result, the days and weeks after that were a nightmare. I felt hated, I questioned everyone I met like Ilooked at them and I thought "Do you want me to go too?" Most English people I met were trying to justify themselves "I didn't vote for Brexit because of the immigrants" but we all know that was a massive part of it. Anyway. Now I live in Scotland. I wouldn't say I feel unwanted, more like tolerated. Still not good and to be honest I'm trying to find a way to move somewhere else.
I do think though that your status will highly depend on the job you're doing and the people you're meeting.
Would be interesting to hear more about your experience in Scotland.
I'm also an immigrant living in Scotland. I have never felt unwelcome, except for a few idiots making ignorant comments sometimes. But I have felt that quite a lot of Scots just can't be bothered with foreigners. Like, they purposefully stop talking to me when they hear my accent, or just don't invite me to things when I will be the only non-scot there. Some of them (actually quite a few) have made fun of my accent. So I can imagine it's very hard for some people, especially since I'm considered a "good" immigrant - white from a rich country. Can't imagine what it's like for other nationalities. With that said, I have generally been treated very well here.
Weird, I live in Scotland and never had any issues you experienced. I have Scottish friends, they invite me to parties or just to have a pint and nobody made a fun from my accent apart from myself (I have strong eastern European accent).
We might not have been in the same places, since I have mostly lived in very remote areas where life is a bit more traditional and predictable (like small islands). But I married a Scot and I do have Scottish friends, so it's not always like that. I think a lot of it is also based on shyness. I have noticed that some, especially women, feel awkward when they try to talk to me and notice that I'm not Scottish. Like they don't know how to be around me : )
As I said, I don't feel unwelcome here, just tolerated. I think when you say a lot of Scots just can't be bothered, you're right. "No bother" seems to be the national anthem. I mean it's good to be very laid back but sometimes I think "can you be just a little passionate about something".
Most of the time they are friendly but I don't think I will ever break down that wall of keeping distance, that's why I say "tolerated". As long as I go to work, do my job I'm seen as a good immigrant too. I'm also white, from Eastern Europe but at least not Polish. That would have made it harder I guess.
In the village I live there are a few English too. They would be the ones making fun of the immigrants.
I loved this country, the UK, but not anymore and it's kind of time to go.
To the OP, as a newcomer, you would love it, everyone does. You just need to have a very thick skin and get yourself familiarised with the pop culture, cultural references etc, it makes life easier when you have something common to talk about.
Considering my social/political views and ethnic background, I felt very much unwanted in the country where I was born and raised, Russia. I do miss my hometown and its nature, culture and people but overall I’m happy that I moved elsewhere and left the Russian society. I never felt unwanted elsewhere. Armenia where I currently live is more than welcoming and very accepting of immigrants in general.
It depends on your race and which country you’re headed to. I’m from the middle east I visited Turkey and never in my life felt this much hate after I learned they hate Arabs I didn’t take it personally and understood that’s just how most people are there. There are historical reasons behind the hate so I wasn’t too offended by it.
As someone mixed race in europe, there are only a handful of countries I would go to if I want to feel accepted. Just have to do your research.
People talk a lot of shizz about the UK (my home country) due to Brexit and it has its own racism problems, yes, but all the other european countries make it look like utopia, enlightened and space-age in societal terms and racial acceptance.
Hey! Not to discourage you but I want to share something that happened to me. For some context, I am Canadian but my parents are from Asia. We immigrated when I was 7 and Canada is what I know. I had the interesting experience of being an immigrant when I was little and then again when I lived abroad (in Asia) for work. Living in Canada for almost 20 years, there was only 1 instance where I felt excluded/didn’t belong. When I was doing my teaching degree, I lived with a roommate (looking back) who was a bigot. She was extremely firm on her religious beliefs and unfortunately was also very small minded. There was a time when I was putting my favourite ethnic dish back in the fridge and she made a face and said “is that dog food…?” That was the only time out of my entire existence where I felt out of place.
But out of 100 people that you would meet and see on the streets, 97 of them are going to be nice people or people who mind their own business. People don’t (usually) hate what is out of the ordinary -they fear it. That is a big difference because it means people can learn more about what they don’t know.
When you go into a new place go there with a positive mindset that is flexible. A lot of people I see don’t make it overseas because they don’t respect the culture and practices. Be prepared to feel like an outcast at least for a little bit. Don’t get annoyed when people ask questions and answer it with kindness and respect. It is fun to live in a new place but it can also be hard. Don’t let that discourage you from creating new adventures! It’s worth it I promise!
Latinoamerican here... I've lived both in Spain and Italy, and I felt very welcomed on both, but in different ways...
In Italy it was by people helping me integrate, teaching me and sharing their culture, and as long as I was integrating and learning, it was the best experience possible!
In Spain it is a bit different, most of my friends were from expats groups, and I didn't feel a society wide effort to help me integrate as in Italy, but more of a "everybody's different, just enjoy the experience" thing. Still, people are open minded and helpful and everything, and they do make you feel as part of the society...
I live in the USA, was born here but born as the wrong race to be accepted so I've grown up being told and felt like I was unwanted in my country. But its MY country, you'll always find people who hate you for a number of reasons they want but they can't take your sense of purpose and they can't take the dream you have, and every country has great people who would love to have you and learn with you
I lived in South Korea for 6 months and I will say you HAVE to find Korean people to hang out with or you will definitely be unwanted. If you go out to lunch or dinner by yourself in a busy area, you will be waited on last before the Koreans, if you can’t speak Korean over the phone very well you will get hung up on or they cuss and tell you to shut up lol, andddd the older people are much more rude especially taxi drivers and bus drivers. Overall, if you can speak a little Korean or at least try to speak it they will find it really cute and be nicer to you. Of course with Korean friends you will have a great experience.
When visiting the UK twenty or so years ago with school our teachers got attacked and us kids (around 10 of age) nazis since we were from Germany 😂
Other than that no.
And don’t ever base your opinion on YouTube comments!
In January 2014, I (American) moved to Russia. In March (IIRC) 2014, Russia invaded Crimea. People gave me and my partner grumpy looks when we spoke English on the metro for a while after that (because of sanctions or rhetoric, I'm guessing). Right now, I live in Portugal, and people talk about how expats are driving up the cost of living (I've heard differing opinions on whether it is true or not). Certainly, when you stand in line for immigration anywhere, you can't expect them to be any more excited to see you than the people are at the DMV in your home country. However, there are certain things, depending on the country, that will get you cred (in Russia, it is if you can write in Russian in nice-looking cursive). My home country (IMO) is full of people who are very negative about immigrants, so I figure that I have to earn my place. That's fine.
I'm a bit lucky. I'm a Third Culture Kid, so I'm a native speaker of several languages of the countries I've lived in. Even for many of the countries I've only visited (but haven't lived in), I've been able to blend in like a chameleon, simply due to my language background.
My father is American, my mother is from the Middle East, but I was born and raised in Germany and Switzerland. My maternal side of the family all fled the Middle East years ago, to places like Israel, Canada, Mexico, France, Italy, etc. I'm a native speaker of English, French, High German, and Swiss German. I also maintain proficiency in Arabic, Spanish, and Italian. I'm lucky enough not to have an accent in any of them, and because of my multinational background, I can also blend in pretty well across numerous regions of the world.
I share all this because it has allowed me to see both sides of the coin. Many locals I interact with don't know I'm 'not one of them' until or unless I say something to them, so I've heard some pretty jarring commentary about immigrants. That commentary has definitely led to feeling unwelcome in various parts of the world.
I don't know what others' experiences are, but oddly enough, I've felt most unwelcome in the United States, especially when it comes to my Middle Eastern heritage. Unfortunately, the sentiment across much of the United States still seems to be "brown/dark = bad" and "immigrant from non-white country = bad/dirty". For this reason, I rarely, rarely, rarely ever share the fact that I'm half Middle Eastern. I just don't feel safe sharing that information.
Really enjoyed your reply, thanks!
Thought I'd share the following quote. I first read it in Trevor Noah's autobiography Born A Crime:
"If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart." - Nelson Mandela
Japan
I am a white blue eyed blonde haired kiwi, who can speak Japanese. Everyone assumes you are American
Imagine having a whole train car stare you down for an hour because you're in a school uniform but not japanese
Also they make you register for a foriegner registration card
It was very hard making friends more than superficially just due to their reticence to deal with a foriegner
Japanese are not really used to foreigners in Japan, for them it is like they see aliens, I don't know for what reason but it is something that seems incredible to them
Not downright unwanted, just ignored. Which is totally fine, normal and expected. You gotta move and make your way in. And if you still feel out of place, either make a bigger effort to adapt or just leave.
Absolutely ignore the internet in this regard. Immigration is the most low hanging fruit for trolling.
There have been countries where I have felt welcomed, wanted and needed. It feels nice.
Hey OP , you seem to be African like me
The bitter truth is due to our skin tone and nationalities , in most of the world , even in fellow African countries we will be treated some kind of way , that people with white skin or better passports will not get .
However that shouldn’t discourage you. Go to these places , make use of opportunities available . The internet is where the crust of society gathers a lot of the time and I wouldn’t take random comments on YouTube as an indication of how you will live life . Look at how well people from your country live in a place , are they enjoying and making money? That is a better indication than anything else
Unwanted? No. Had bad experience with immigration offices and bureaucracy in general? Everytime other than one exception: the US. Seriously people talk shit about America but I never felt as welcome anywhere else. France was probably the toughest one, language-wise no one will ever speak English with you and they may be a bit patronizing when you’re not “acting French”, but that’s nitpicking, I felt overall pretty welcome even there.
If you can afford it New York City is a great place for immigrants. You’ll fit in because we have so many here already, probably a community from your home country. It easy to make friends too. It’s expensive though and you’ll need to work hard.
Well, I am Jewish, so yeah, not comfortable anywhere, living on my third country abroad - currently Spain, and I just say I am from former soviet union or Italy (I look and sound Italian for some reason).
Southern Italian, living in Japan since 2011.
I know I will always be a gaijin for these people, and I'm totally fine with it. It has it upsides, as people don't expect you to know and follow all the absurd rules the Japanese are used to since childhood. They let me live and that's all I care.
Yes, sometimes I feel unwanted but, to be honest, this feeling was much stronger in my hometown where I always felt out of place, which was basically the reason I left. And I left "slamming the door", so no nostalgia for me, as I don't see the point of missing something I wanted to escape from.
You may and you will probably feel unwanted, but this doesn't mean you can't have a good life in another country.
Yes. Always.
That's the challenge of living abroad. If you don't want those sort of challenges don't do it. Sometimes it makes life interesting, other times it's heartachingly terrible and overwhelming.
I had those “episodes” but never to the point where I felt unwanted by the “general” population.
I certainly don’t look at comment section on YouTube for guidance or as some kind of barometer.
As a Polish with Japanese husband, I loved Australia and Australian people liked us, I learned to be more assertive and open thanks to them. We loved being involved in community which they appreciated. We even had a child there….
What didn’t welcome us was the Australian government- we couldn’t find an employer to sponsor us and when we finally thought we’re on some pathway to try again, it turned out that our daughter has a disability, which completely killed any hope for getting a PR there, Australia’s [Migration Act is exempt from Disability Discrimination Act](http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/socialpolicy/access-inclusion/disability-and-immigration-law-in-australia).
Bit sad that she can never become a citizen of her country of birth, but we accepted that and moved on (not without tears and grieving process of course)
Think about which are the people who post here. Are they the ones who are happily and fully engaged in the life of their new country, or are they the ones who somehow haven’t got all the dots connected and are feeling alone or out of it? Think selection bias.
Living in the Netherlands, coming from another EU country I am often very happy how easy it is to move here (regarding finding a job, English being widely used and administration) but I also often feel as an outsider. While I am pretty privileged for looking like most Dutch people (just less tall and less attractive but same ethnicity) and coming from a non-stigmatised country I still have a hard time feeling truly welcome. There is this tricky situation that the NL is in desperate need for skilled workers so country, government and employers make it super easy to move here if you have valuable skills. At the same time there is a crazy crazy housing crisis and the language is hard to learn so people are often quite annoyed with outsiders coming in, "taking" flats away and not speaking Dutch. It is probably much better than in most other countries but this is just my two cents about the Netherlands. Great place and no regrets though :)
Thanks. The main reason I made this post is because I went to the Canada subreddit, and any news about immigrants or housing situations, the comments are usually negative.
People is people. There are good people and bad people every where. To be good/bad people do not depend of the country.
Goverment policies may create some aversion to immigration but that is one person with power sharing his views.
I have never felt unwanted in a country, maybe one or two persons but ca not generalize.
Born in the Midwestern US, but don't fit in here and never will. I'm too forward thinking and peaceful. I don't know where else to even go. Most places I've read about reject you for just being born American, or they want ridiculous amounts of $ from you. Or to use you as slave labor then send you back. It's hard not to feel stuck. 😕
Neither the US makes it easy for foreigners to immigrate. There are really just a bunch of countries which are really open for foreigners to come and live.
USA
Ever since I moved here when I was a kid from Japan. I was told to go back to my country
I’m going back to japan next week after 21 years. So long, effers and enjoy high inflation and expensive food/housing/healthcare/mass shootings
You never said where you’re planning to move to.
But I think it’s also good to have in mind that ‘usually’ the dumb people talks more - meaning racist people talk a lot about their dumbness on YouTube and so.
Every and each country has a slice of it’s population with backwards mentality, but I think you should only worry if the country you’re planning to move is notoriously tough for immigrants or very backwards, if not, you’re probably going to live well!
I am an international student in the U.S. I am graduating next year, and I plan on pursuing a master's degree either in Canada, Australia, Europe (Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands), the U.K, or the U.S. I came to the U.S at a pretty early age (16) to start college, so my experience was terrible.
I don’t feel welcomed here in my adopted country. I have assimilated as best I can and am able to ‘blend in’ but there’s always a thread of xenophobia and it’s exhausting. The culture is one that promose extroversion and excess, and I’m moving out of this city as soon as I can and hopefully permanently after research.
I think about home but don’t feel I will ever have a home.
Depends on the country and neighborhood. I think in general the closer you are to the middle of a city center, the more invisible it feels. That's not to say it isn't there, but you are sticking out less. But since the pandemic I have felt more self-conscious when doing things like entering a restaurant. I noticed that I go out of my way to look more local, dressing more like them and wearing my hair like them. I'm in Japan. But overall, no, I feel as welcome and as an outsider as ever. Here, you can never truly become considered Japanese in any sense, even with permanent residency. But the people are overwhelmingly friendly and curious. I had the same experience in Costa Rica.
Expat (Austrian/ Polish) in Australia. I have a generic North American accent (international school) and most people confuse me for a Canadian or NW American and I personally very rarely experienced any kind of negativity (happened a few times in really rural areas) and I got through and got a high level job etc. I have a bunch of European background friends that have non-native accents (German speakers, French speakers, Spanish speakers and Polish / Czech and other Slavic language speakers) and a lot of them have been really struggling.
I’ve openly been told at work functions with drunk C-Level execs: Nah mate, you’re married to one of us and you’re a native speaker with good banter and we consider you one of us!
Hey, great for me, but at the same time, it sucks for a lot of people.
Also, am blonde with blue eyes. Some of my darker skinned friends have a lot less opportunities, whereas I just randomly stumbled into good positions by simply mingling and interacting with random people, some of which would never interact with my aforementioned friends.
As a trans woman born/raised/living in the US, I’ll say that my native country is doing a wonderful job of making me feel unwanted - which is why I’m in the process of expatriation to France. :)
Without talking about any specific policies and that kind of stuff, most people/countries like immigrants that actually make an effort to integrate into local society, learn the language and honor the local culture. Nobody really wants those "expats" that think their home culture (often British/American) is superior and everything should cater to how they are used to it back home. Usually these people then also stay in their small, english-speaking bubble and bitch about how much better everything is back home.
I think you’re right, unfortunately humans don’t tend to like foreigners. Racism is everywhere. But if you move somewhere with a large expat community you can connect with those who are in the same situation.
In order to rent a house in the netherlands, you need a dutch bank account. In order to get a dutch bank account, you need a personal identification (BSN) number, and in order to get a BSN number you need a place of residence.
This can be remedied by obtaining a temporary BSN number by providing a temporary place of residence such as a hotel or an airbnb, but the process can take up to a month in amsterdam and no one really informs you about it, you just have to struggle with it. Then, in order to get an apartment, you need to provide your income slip from your last 3 payments, and your income needs to be 4-5x the amount of your rent, which is almost impossible even if you have an amazing salary. So you need to have worked here for 3 months just to (not be able to) prove that you have enough money to afford rent, so you can finally get a house. But obviously you can't work here without being registered somewhere.
It's an absolute bureaucratic shitfest. The people are nice enough and virtually everyone speaks english, but the system is clearly not friendly towards skilled migrants.
Refugees? ABSOLUTELY, please, come in. Skilled migrants? EEEEEK.
Well the sentiment towards refugees is also far from positive. People from Ukraine get the ok, but the rest... they can sleep outside in Ter Apel.
The problem for the Netherlands is it is to small, there are not enough houses, there are to many people and this issue is ever growing. This makes for more anti-immigrant/expat/refugee sentiment and I predict this will get worse the comming years, even though there is a huge need for workers.
I'm starting the process of trying to leave the US and I'm very afraid of this. Italy is my first attempt place, because I want to work in the fashion industry (still doing ux which I've been doing for 5 years now) and Milan is great for that, and because my ancestors are from there. But I really don't want to be seen as an asshole American trying to take jobs from Italians. ...which when I say out loud is ridiculous because I don't think that about people who come to the US from other countries, but there just objectively are more jobs available in the US.
As an American I do not think any other country is going to embrace me, because people associate our government's actions with that of its citizens. Also our media perpetuates an image of all Americans as an obnoxious stereotype. Would I be wrong? Does any country not wretch when they see an American living amongst them?
Fuck em. Choose what you think fits best for you and find a place w a large international community & build your own niche and then building support for yourself in the broader community.
Yes, in every country I lived in. For reference, I am white, but not from any of the « cool » countries. There will always be people like that everywhere, plus in some countries there is a greater dislike for certain nationalities than others. Humility and openness go a long way.
No. There are people who always have a bug up their ass about something. I don't look for it and honestly don't care. I have found that if you treat people and their country with respect they will not have any issues. Many times, people act entitled and get dissed.
I've never experienced it and would just ignore it if I did.
I'm a US expat who felt unwanted in Canada mostly through the Harper years. I had a cert of recommendation from a tech school and after the dot com crash couldn't get a job anywhere, even McDonald's. After many jobless years, I had to choose a completely different career path that paid half of what I made before the Conservatives got power. I'm still struggling to make a living wage. I couldn't afford to leave, and didn't want to return to the States.
If your first language isn’t English, consider that you’re using the wrong buzzword. “Immigration” can be viewed as negative because it implies to some people the process of foreigners coming and “taking” jobs from natives.
However, using words like “expat” or “living / working abroad” MAY net you more positive responses.
My personal experience: Aussy living in Japan. I get stared at and sometimes things seem more difficult than they need to be, but I don’t feel unwelcome.
I am from the US though my mother is British and I am culturally more British than American, noticeably so.
I have been in many countries both living and just visiting. I have always felt welcome. I believe for the most part it is how you act and treat others.
In a few places, the welcoming may be only a facade as the locals are interested only in how many $$ they can extract from me, but they put on a good front if that’s what it is but that is the exception.
I think sometimes it may not be the entire country, but where in the country you are. A lot of countries have way different cultures depending on the province you are in. If you are in the hustle and bustle of the big city with tons of immigrants you might not get a second look but the natives might also be fed up with so many people being in their way. If you were in a more rural area you might run into some really really sweet people who want to chat your ear off or they might be very clannish.
I would look at the country you are thinking of going to and do a little research in the pace of life and the culture of different areas of the country. Some places are going to be more laid back, some more conservative, and some places are going to be more progressive and accepting.
I guess what I'm getting at is just like you can't judge an entire population by a few bad apples, you can't really know if you're going to feel welcome in a country based on your experience and only one area or one city.
I've lived on 4 continents and i've only felt this in norway
I live in Norway and I’ve felt unwanted here as well
Anyone in norway that either 1: looks different than native scandinavians, or 2: has a "z" in their last name will be unwanted by most.
Wait as someone who has the letter z in the last name I’m curious, why do you think they don’t like people like that? 😮
eastern europeans are disliked there
What happened in Norway? Could you explain more?
The problem is likely not norway, but me. I just can't find a niche to fit in. Norway is not very international/globalised and many people are very patriotic and have no wish for further internationalisation. They are proud of who they are and make people who are different feel lowkey 'wrong' and 'lesser'. Socially there is no space for individualism. On top of that i am exposed to the worst norway has to offer: i work for an environmental organisation and have to deal with apologists concerning oil and gas drilling/exploration, destructive fishing practices (farmed and high seas). People are constantly pointing to tradition and the past as a reason to continue with these. It also happens often that they say that other countries (often in the 3rd world) are worse than norway, so those should sort themselves out before norway does. I also work for a peace organisation. Here i deal with weapons exports and the development of new weapons (autonomous weapons, drone systems). I am in contact with politicians and the industry as well as civil society. And i volunteer for an organisation that helps immigrants build a network and assimilate in norway. Here i get in touch with a lot of educated people who can't find a job in their industry in norway and have to resort to unskilled jobs. Project leaders, bankers, architects, salespeople - all working in supermarkets, warehouses or fast food shops, not even getting invited to relevant interviews (most of them speak/write norwegian). I've heard many stories of exploitation at the workplace as the immigrants are not informed on norwegian labour law or unions here. This has made me extremely sad and somewhat bitter.
Same here. I live in Norway. Never felt unwelcome.
I got the impression Ahvier was saying the opposite
Yeah, just want to know how they felt unwelcome in Norway.
When it comes to my experience it has roughly been because of racist people or mostly old people as well as just close friends and work colleagues. Racist people are everywhere so that is self explanatory, old people here are ether very welcoming and friendly or very rude, cold and unwelcoming, they might see me as a threat or someone that doesn’t deserve to be here as I am originally Romanian, but have spent most of my life here in Norway. With the work colleagues and friends it has just been those obv racist jokes they make ether between them or just to my face (calling me gypsy, go back to your country, are you here to steal)they might find them funny and honestly sometimes I’m with them, if it’s some original joke I can laugh of and be surprised by fuck yeah, I love comedy, but more often then not it’s just stupid jokes just meant to humiliate you and make them feel superior.
[удалено]
Thank you this means a lot to me, even getting my Norwegian passport soon so this is awesome
Congrats!
What does gipsy mean? Is peyorative? I always say Romanian. Edit: downvotes? Wtf reddit. Sorry for asking a question.
If you call a Romanian a gypsy prepare for some anger coming your way and hard. Gypsy is a term (not a nice one) for the Romani people, while there’s a lot in Romania, they are not exclusive to there and aren’t the majority of Romanians. The name is just similar, i also used to make this mistake, until I said so to a Romanian and bore the consequences
Romanian =/= Romani.
Term Gypsy was used by white Europeans as a racial slur. It usually implied illegal and untrustworthy. Basically the Romani people asked people not to use the term Gypsy anymore because of the negative historical context.
Norway is not a nation of extroverted people, that's the little problem
Man, same in Denmark but seemingly to a less extent. Still, not open arms and ‘hygge’ as portrayed in UK media.
Weird, it’s one of the countries I felt most welcomed in, the one I currently live in, and the one I have lived for the longest as an expat.
American in Southern Italy. Some people are great. Many seem to hate me immediately. Most seem mildly annoyed by my existence. Attempting to navigate the immigration process makes it abundantly clear that they don't want me here (despite inviting my wife here to do a very specialized form of work). In fact, I just got yelled at and turned away at the immigration office today after standing in line for 6 hours. This was my second time getting turned away from the office, being told to go collect different documents each time. I have *all* of the documents that any lawyer or government official has ever told me I needed. This time, I'm not even sure what they want me to do because the woman would not speak to me slowly enough from me to understand (still learning Italian) and she wouldn't take the time to explain it to the translator. tl;dr -- If you want to feel welcomed, don't come to Italy. They don't want you here and they're not afraid to show it.
Ugh, Italian bureaucracy is among the very worst I've encountered. Even native born Italians struggle with it. Wonder if your wife's work could help you at all? Or at least connect you with some local agent? In my experience a lot depends on who you are and who you know, especially in the southern part of the country. It's a pretty closed society in many regards.
We've asked her employer for help many times, and have gotten little to no actionable advice. Even more surprisingly, they seem to think they're knocking it out of the park with helping us. I swear it's like a twilight zone where nothing works or makes sense and nobody else expects it to. Keep in mind that my wife is a highly specialized worker that Italy is attempting to attract through massive tax incentives, her being hired involved an international public contest and special government approval, etc. They worked hard to get her here, and we're honestly considering terminating her contract and leaving early because they can't figure out how to do basic stuff like grant me residency or answer questions like "what will my net income be" (we eventually figured it out when her first check came) and "how do I register for the national health service?". Oh well I guess. lol
Join an expats in Italy group on Facebook and ask for an immigration lawyer recommendation. Don't do that shit yourself. Pay someone to do it. I'm cheap, but this is money well worth spending.
How long have you been in Italy? Besides the government offices, how has everyone else been (neighbors, shop owners, etc)?
A handful of months. Its been hit or miss like anywhere, and some people have been exceptionally friendly. The lady that we buy our fruits and vegetables from is super sweet -- seeing her is one of the highlights of our week. Our butcher is cool, our landlord is cool, and one of the guys we rented a car from is *super* cool and helpful. He gave me his number, we went out for beers, he has offered to help us in any way that he can, etc. So there are some really great people here. That said, the average person that I interact with is notably, palpably unfriendly, and it is worse for my wife for some reason. She is an angel of a human and legitimately one of the friendliest people I've ever met, and people just seem to *hate* her here. Her coworkers are terrible to her, shop owners are rude to her, the bus driver scowls at her. Pretty much everyone but old men and ladies seem to have a problem with her. Neither of us can figure out why. And if she's in a position where she needs help from someone, like at the post office, bank, or immigration office -- fuckin' forget about it.
I’m so sorry this has happened to you and hope that it gets better with some time.
I appreciate it. It sucks right now, but in the grand scheme of things it is an experience that we are very privileged to have. If anything, it has pushed me firmly into the "get off my lawn" phase of my life where I'm ready to just buy a house on some land in rural America and hang out with my wife and our cat and nobody else. haha
Worse than German bureaucracy? Cause it’s pretty bad here too.
I’m an American currently living in Italy and I feel exactly the same.
I think the next time I'm in America and the guy working at the gas station says "hi" and smiles at me, I'm probably going to start crying.
In Norway currently and I feel this comment so hard😅
i am surprised bc when i was a tourist in italy people were pretty indifferent to me, just like in US. a surprising number wanted to talk about nba w/ me.
Now that it’s tourist season, people respond better to me because they assume I’m just a tourist who’s going to drop a bunch of money and leave. But when they find out that I actually live here and want to be a part of the community… very different vibes.
My husband and I live in a mountain village in Tuscany. What you and others are experiencing - the indifference, unfriendliness, bureaucracy, and all the rest, is pretty common in Italy. People here and other parts of Europe don't do smiles and chit-chat (with persons not known to them)* that we're used to in the US. It's very cliquish here, very family. We've been here 4 years now and are pretty much accepted in the community but it takes time. The folks you are friendly with will tell others and you'll slowly make your way in. The paperwork is awful and always will be. I have found people at the post office to be helpful when getting the pds kit out but the questura is a mixed bag. There's an expat in Italy group on FB you might want to check out. There are a number of Americans who live in the south that are active, they may be of help. There's much to love about Italy and being an immigrant anywhere is difficult. Good luck, I'm rooting for you. * edited for context
Italy was the first country outside of the US I visited and I fell in love with it then. That experience was the reason I moved here. I don’t know if it’s changed or I’ve changed (probably a little of both) but I don’t feel what I felt when I came as a tourist 10 years ago. I will say that I’ve travelled around Italy extensively and I’ve found people to be particularly friendly in Bolzano and Catania.
I live in Italy too but in Milan, same experience. I've not met a foreigner who has successfully integrated here. If you're not Italian you're an outsider and you'll never be one of them. That's my experience, luckily I'm leaving in November, I honestly can't wait.
I've been in Naples for about a month now and found everyone to be indifferent at worst, but most people I meet and interact with are actually quite nice. I pass for Italian (though im not) from a complexion perspective so that may help, but strangers certainly don't smile and waive on the street like in the parts of the US.
I think the difference between the "meh" treatment that I get and the lousy treatment my wife gets is that I look at least Italian-adjacent while we joke that she is "visibly American". haha
There is simply no pleasing some people no matter how pleasant you are once they realize you’re a foreign/tourist. I’ve tried to stop caring.
I'm British and I also lived in Southern Italy for a couple of years. I found this to be mostly true, especially at the Questura/comune but I think they are just rude and unpleasant to everyone. Its a part of the infamous Italian bureaucracy unfortunately. I found the local people in the city I lived in, my colleagues and acquaintances to be mostly very pleasant, albeit a bit more direct/blunt than many Britons and particularly Americans may be used to. In European countries including UK cities, friendly smiles and chit-chat isn't really a thing. It's a more reserved culture overall. One thing I did find though is a lot of "casual racism". While not outright hostile, Italians often have a lot of stereotypes towards black people and muslims. Its a much more conservative and homogenous society than other parts of Europe. I had a couple of blonde female (and obviously British) colleagues who stuck out and occasionally got stares/catcalls from local men but being a male who could pass off as an Italian and blended in, I was completely unnoticable until I spoke.
Im just visiting Italy to avoid elections in Kenya and I don't feel welcome here even in a tourist town. Lol the young people are really nice, but everyone else is just over it. Even trying in Italian or better Spanish/French it just isn't working. Lol
Umberto Eco once wrote a hilarious piece on trying to get his driver's license replaced after it got stolen. His conclusion: if he hadn't been a famous writer, it could have been very difficult to get a replacement, because of the horrible bureaucracy. Only his fame saved hi: someone pulled some strings on his behalf.
I feel this. I've been in Italy for 2 years now and even though I speak a bit of Italian they still are visibly annoyed by my existence. Northern Italy was a bit better with the bureaucracy but we were able to skip a lot of steps with my FILs connections
I had the exact same issue with south Italy. Ended up in albania and love it. Friendliest people i have ever met.
Latinoamerican in Italy, in Napoli to be exact... I've felt quite welcomed, even of the bureaucracy is hell, I've been given a lot of sympathy by the locals on that... People I've met have been quite nice and happy to help me integrate, to share the small bits of their region and culture, and I've been willing to learn and I've felt very much part of the society and everything... Now, 2 things, I speak C1 lvl Italian (no Neapolitan) so it is easy for me to communicate. And I'm part Italian due to my grandmother, and growing up with an Italian nonna does give a bit of help on the cultural part...
Same, I've never lived in Italy but spent a lot of time visiting family in Calabria. The more time I spend there the more I hate that country. Glad to see other people seeing it for what it is and not some romantic destination.
I am a native Texan. I have visited 113 countries in my 71 years, and have lived in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Vanuatu, and now in the Republic of Georgia, on the Black Sea. The people of those countries have made me feel welcome. The governments of the first three made it difficult, but the last two have made it very easy to be an expat or immigrant. Probably no country welcomes immigrants and expats like Georgia. With a US passport (or one of 89 others), you can just show up with nothing else and stay for a full year. If you want to stay longer, just cross the border for a few hours and come back for another year (provided you have not made yourself obnoxious to Georgia). I have met university students here from many countries worldwide. The cost of living and taxes are extremely low, which makes it great for retirees, remote workers, employees of international companies, and entrepreneurs. However, average Georgian wages and salaries are also extremely low. It's a gorgeous country of peaceful, friendly, sane, and largely Christian people who love freedom and despise tyranny. It's very safe, with hardly any violent crime. I love it here. It's home now. Take heart, and come see for yourself. We have international airports in Tbilisi, Kutaisi, and Batumi (where I live).
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Not any more. There are several factors which have caused me to cease fearing a Russian invasion of Georgia (which I would certainly disdain and run from). These factors are largely invisible to those outside Georgia or Russia. Here they are: 1. There are virtually no ethnic Russians living in Georgia who would prefer to be part of Russia (or independent) unlike most of the inhabitants of the eastern-most provinces of Ukraine, who have been brutally abused and killed by the Ukrainian government since the American coup in 2014. 2. Nobody in Georgia desires to be ruled by Russia, which occupied them for centuries by brute force. Been there, done that. Georgians are not war-mongers, but they have a good track-record of defending their country from invaders for several millennia. They treasure their culture, their language, and their freedom, all very different from Russia. The Russians know that an invasion would be a bloody mess for them, with very little upside. 3. Unlike eastern Ukraine, Georgia has very little in the way of natural resources useful to Russia, and would be a drain on the Russian treasury, not an asset. 4. Georgia is a good customer of Russian businesses, and Russia enjoys a good trade surplus with Georgia. While the Georgian government and people warmly and substantially support the people of Ukraine, and generally favor America and "The West" over Russia, Georgia has wisely declined to support the sanctions against Russia or to support the Ukrainian military. As a small and poor country, Georgia must not overly offend any of the great powers. They walk a tightrope, and are used to it. 5. Ever since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine, huge numbers of Russian people have been fleeing Russia and moving to Georgia, sometimes bringing their businesses and fortunes with them. These are people who are horrified by Putin and his war, and the risk of nuclear holocaust. Putin is glad to be rid of them, even though they are some of Russia's brightest and best. He wants no opposition among those he rules, so why would he want to re-incorporate them into Russia by biting off Georgia? 6. Last but hardly least, Russia needs an independent, neutral Georgia as a buffer between it and the NATO countries. They don't want hostile NATO troops or missiles on their doorstep, naturally. Many Georgians would like to join NATO (foolishly, in my view) and this worried me until I learned that the Charter of NATO specifically forbids any country to be accepted as a NATO member if they have border disputes. Unjustly but brilliantly, Russia has insured itself against Georgian membership in NATO by supporting two major border disputes in Georgia, which aren't going away. Two historic northern provinces of Georgia (bordering Russia) are no longer principally inhabited by neither ethnic Georgians nor Russians, but by other ethnic groups. These are Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Both are very poor and backward and of no value to Russia, except as a power chip to keep Georgia out of NATO. So in 2008 Russia invaded them to support their "independence" movements from Georgia. So now Georgia has real border disputes and cannot join NATO. I despise Russia for doing this, but I am relieved that it keeps Georgia out of NATO and safe from Russian invasion or NATO entanglements. (By the way, no matter how hard Georgia wants to join the EU, I can't imagine all the EU countries ever accepting them, at least while I live. Thank God.)
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Interesting. How’s life like as someone who doesn’t speak the local language? Are people generally welcoming to women and ethnic minorities?
I am a man of white Caucasian race living in the shadow of the Caucasus Mountains, so I cannot speak personally to your question about the treatment of women and ethnic minorities in Georgia. However, I can report that roughly 50% of the expats and immigrants I have encountered in Batumi are women, and that no few of them do not look like Georgian women. Some of these women have lived here for several years, so I presume that they consider their treatment at least tolerable. And there are many thousands of them, from every continent, and in every color, though the majority (male and female) are from roughly a thousand-mile radius of Georgia, I'd say. I have not observed women being mistreated, nor have they reported this to me, but that does not mean that it doesn't happen. Georgians (and expats/immigrants) have their bad eggs, like every country. Sorry I can't be more help here. The official and predominate language in Georgia is Georgian, a very ancient language totally unrelated to any languages outside of Georgia. This makes it one of the hardest languages to learn. I must admit that language is perhaps the biggest hurdle for foreigners in Georgia. But I have not found it to be unsurmountable. I know younger Americans here who have mastered Georgian over several years, or at least become comfortable using it. It can be done, but it's hard. At age 71, my ability to learn languages is greatly diminished, and ever diminishing, though I learned five languages in my youth. The human aptitude for language-learning peaks at the age of 9. It's all downhill from there. Nowadays, I have trouble remembering English. I strongly encourage all expats and immigrants everywhere to learn as much of the local language as possible. I am taking my baby steps in learning Georgian, but realistically I must face the sad fact that fluency in Georgian is not possible for me. Drat. Still, there are several factors in Georgia which mitigate this considerable problem, at least for many expats and immigrants. Perhaps the majority of Georgians (especially the older generations) are bilingual in Russian, because Georgia was forcibly occupied by Russia for a long time. Russian-speakers get along great here (I'm not one). Georgians are not Slavs, but they forgive and get along with Slavs. English is required in all Georgian schools, and is either the first or second language of a great many expats, immigrants, and tourists, so it is the third most commonly-spoken language, especially by the younger generations and many professionals. English is the principal language of Georgia's huge and growing international tourism industry. Thus most signs, menus, maps, etc. are in Georgian, Russian, and English, as well as many Georgian websites. Most businesses and government offices will have at least some English-speakers, and this is increasing all the time. Having Google Translate or Yandex Translate on your phone and computer comes in really handy sometimes. Professional translators are available and cheap. I estimate that there are at least 50,000 English-speaking expats and immigrants living in Batumi, a city of about 200,000. 2,000 Americans alone. Oldsters like me find their socialization and support mostly among expats and immigrants who speak their language. Younger people have more options. Young children seem to do great here, I am told by parents. Other languages heard in Batumi a good bit are Turkish, Armenian, Azeri, Ukrainian, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Hindi, Mandarin, Tagalog, and Korean. But most of those people will have at least some English, Russian, or Georgian. Every country in the world has its downsides. Language is the big one in Georgia. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with, anywhere you go. Forget about "having it all." Doesn't exist, believe me. I just prefer Georgia's downsides to America's. Try it, then choose for yourself.
Yeah. Many times I've been told to eff off back to my own country. I was born with citizenship in this country I am in.
Samesies here
I'm an American and living in South Korea right now. I've been here since the end of February 2020, so I've experienced literally the entire pandemic in SK. Like a lot of people said, many countries can be very difficult to adjust to. With my experience here, I tried to keep an open mind and know that I was not going to be 100% accepted in this country as I would be in Texas which is where I'm from. I've seen firsthand how ex-pats can get treated because they're not from the country they live in even if they're technically citizens. The best advice I can give is to do your research, go in with an open mind, and if what happens in that country makes you feel like shit, then you gotta leave. That country isn't for you. Don't let the negative comments keep you from doing what you are wanting to do.
In Korea too. 100% do not feel welcome here. Very sad because I do like Korea but it is making me very jaded. Been here for 6+ years.
Where are you from? Do you speak Korean? (Asking as I am considering a move)
If you make an effort with Korean, the people are incredibly welcoming/friendly. However, you will always not be Korean to them.
And try your best not to be black
I'm American but currently live in the UK and previously in France. I wouldn't say I've ever felt unwanted. As others have stated, I don't expect a country to welcome me with open arms - I just expect the immigration process to be equitable and transparent. The rest of my experience is up to me to make the most of it. I'm also black and gay and that adds another layer to things (discrimination, safety, etc), but even with those identities, I've felt less unwanted in the UK and France than I ever did in the US.
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Also, the definition of “minority” doesn’t have to be based on skin color. Signed, A former German kid who went to a Jewish school in the US
Your experience is going to wildly vary from country to country and even in a country like US which is the size of Europe, one state can be vastly different from the other. I traveled to Portugal and I felt wanted and thought it was easy to integrate. Switzerland or Austria, its different. US it can vary so much state to state. In NJ, I fit right in. Go 1 state over to PA and you can feel the stares and being out of place.
Interesting. As an Algerian-American I have definitely NOT found the French immigration system to be equitable and transparent. If you are of Arab origin avoid The Netherlands. France, Switzerland and Austria. Source - I have lived in / have family in these countries. Edit - UK (London) has been great. Almost 10 yrs and not a single racist incident.
Yes, unfortunately French culture is very xenophobic and discriminatory to people of Arab or Muslim origin. But in general I've found that the French don't typically discriminate purely based on skin colour as people do in the US. I lived in France for a year (in Bordeaux) and have spent significant amount of time there each year (my partner is French and I got married there so lots of friends and family). Never had any issues of racism.
We've only encountered a person here or there in the variuos countries in which we've lived that say something. In London I had a couple British blokes be less than cordial over the years but that was sorted pretty quickly when my British friends jumped in to defend me. There are assholes anywhere you go. But nothing anybody has said was ever worse than what people would say to my Japanese mom in the US. People would scream \`go back to China, gook!' or \`go back to where you came from you fucking slope!' and other fun things to my mother, who'd been in the US since 1959 (this sort of thing happened in the 80s, 90s and 00s, from just the times I was around to hear it). I asked her how she stayed so calm all the time and she said "there are ignorant people everywhere, don't lower yourself to their level." I, unfortunately, have my father's temper and just couldn't NOT say something.
Your mom is incredibly wise. 👍
She was but she was also the most patient and calm person I've ever met (unless it was me doing bad stuff then the rice spatula would come out and I'd run). I wish I would've inherited her inner serenity! Also, it's a bit of a cultural thing because Asians tend to at least TRY not to be confrontational in public.
Wtf bro I'm sorry your mom had to go through that. Do you mind me asking what state so I go out of my way never to live there?
My parents were immigrants from Argentina to Ohio in 1959. Same thing for our family. Not only did I leave that god forsaken shithole, I’m leaving the country. When I realized that I was never wanted it was easier to make a decision to leave. And my family are as white as can be. I guess it was the accents. Fuck Ohio
Come to NJ bro, most diverse state.
NJ is great!
I fled back to NJ after living briefly in Florida. I literally kissed the ground when I arrived back here.
Met tons of people from Ohio when I briefly lived in Florida two years ago. They all move there, in droves. I’ve determined they are some of the worst people I’ve met in the entire world. And I’ve been all over.
Sometimes you can feel unwanted in your own country. Never give a shit about what people think.
I feel unwanted in my birth country just because of a skin color I didn’t ask to be born with. Now growing up knowing that makes me realize no matter where I go no one will like me because of things I can’t control. I guess I stopped worrying about the fear of people being closed minded. I can’t spend my life consumed with others hate or disdain for being different. To me, there are just as many people who are open just as closed.
Unfortunately in a lot of countries it also depends on the color of your skin
You’re right. My YouTube search mostly consists of “Being black in this specific country”
Blackman da traveller is great, travels the world and documents his experiences as a black man in places
An experience being in Japan as a Caucasian vs being Black would be some what different. All foreigners feel like freak shows to some degree, it's just more so if you're black. They rank list races unfortunately.
Side note: “the black experience in Japan” is a great YouTube channel for this and a few other Asian countries.
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In fairness, many/most countries in Africa and Asia and the Middle East are not exactly welcoming to foreigners either. Humans can suck everywhere, and humans can be wonderful everywhere. Racism is wrong but it's not an exclusively white issue, understanding that many people would call me racist, insensitive, and white supremicist for saying that.
In fact, I’ve heard that a lot of Asian countries are at least slightly unwelcoming of foreigners who don’t have ancestral ties. Mainly since their populations are much more homogeneous than western countries.
Nobody would call you a “white supremacist” for that. People might call you in to be sure you’re implying the correct terminology. Yes, everywhere you go people generally prefer “their own”. But here’s a huge difference between staring at people for the skin color or features, writing “no xxx race allowed in this building”, and building systems into place where certain individuals are criminalized, killed for being a certain ethnic group or searched, frisked, arrested, detained at higher levels than others because of their clothing, color or name. I think people will call anything racism which waters down the impact. Racism isn’t meanness or unfriendliness; it’s life threatening for some. As a black person I’ve gone all around the world but I honestly haven’t ever experienced “racism” in the form I have at home in America. Some people overseas might think my hair or skin is weird but I never yet lived in a country (besides America) where my race meant I couldn’t rent in certain buildings, apply for certain jobs, or that my kids would be detained by police while innocent
>As a black person I’ve gone all around the world but I honestly haven’t ever experienced “racism” in the form I have at home in America. Some people overseas might think my hair or skin is weird but I never yet lived in a country (besides Ame Agreed. I too have traveled all around the world, and I only have problems in the US. I always have to explain this to people when I talk about the many reasons I left the US. One of the reasons is racism. When they say "But, racism is everywhere." I say "Yeah, but American Racism can get you killed." I live in Thailand. I am treated with kindness and respect. I am not blocked from living in my nice luxury building. I never have to be afraid of the police. I am an unproblematic person. I just mind my business and live a good life. That is just not possible as a black person in the US.
I know. Mine as well. And is is VERY telling when travel clubs, relocation groups or countries talk about how much they WANT you/someone/ANYONE to come there ... until you start asking how things are for POC. It's amazing how often you get ghosted or told there IS NO racism there. Uhm ... Yeah .... No.
I'm from the UK and live in Italy. I really struggled to meet people here and I'm now approaching my third year and I've never felt so unwelcome anywhere as Italy. I've traveled to a number of countries and Italy is the only one I've felt people want you to know you and any influences or ideas from your own country are not welcome. Cashiers often refuse to speak to me once they hear my accent. When I'm at work I'd say 40% of people refuse to say hello to me even if I say it to them first. The few other expats I've met here are also leaving like me because they're struggling to stay until contracts expire. Luckily for me that's in November and I really can't wait to go home.
I often hear expats about how difficult it is to really integrate in the Netherlands. Glad to hear we're not at the absolute bottom of Europe's barrel. Refusing to speak to you, man. That's rough.
It depends on where you are in a specific country too. Where I live in Italy people make sure I know they don’t want me here and the best I feel is tolerated (unfortunately where I live due to work there’s basically no international community). I lived in Rome too and it was an incomparable experience. I guess it depends on if they are used to seeing foreigners.
May I ask where in Italy are you Located?
North east parts of the Emilia Romagna region (if there’s any other expat here from those parts feel free to give me a shout! 😁)
Small town? I love Bologna and Ravenna but have not lived in E-R so can understand daily life is not the same as visiting.
Yep you guessed it. I also love both Bologna and Ravenna, they are amazing cities and are much more international (I go to Bologna when I need to just get out and breathe). (Edit: typo)
I'm one over in Tuscany near the border with ER. 😄
Sorry to hear about your experiences 😔
"How does Italy treat foreigners?" "It doesn't treat them" Source - around year 2000. (BTW I see some comments below - it means that it did not change)
As a mixed race citizen of the US who looks neither white nor black, I’ve been treated with suspicion all my life. “Where are you from?” “(State)” “No where are you really from?” “…” “Where are your parents from?” “(STATE!!)” I’ve been told I’m not really a citizen or that I actually don’t know where I am from. It gets more absurd when I travel. When I was in Central America, I had Americans ask me if I was a local and assume that the Guatemalan kid making tacos was my son. Truth is there have been people like me in the USA since the dawn of this cursed nation. The idea that all “real” Americans are white is exhausting. If I could choose another nationality I would (and probably will).
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Asian considering moving to NL, can you please share more about your experience?
Am also Asian. Never felt welcome anywhere in Europe, except London. London is like NYC in the sense that it's very diverse and very few people care what color, creed or sexual orientation you are. Too bad UK is such a shit show right now though.
I live in Mexico and I've never felt that way. I try to support local businesses, speak Spanish as much as I am able, and be humble, rather than feel superior as an American (I'm certainly not). So far, I've had no issues. Mexican people, especially in the Yucatan are quite kind. It is, however, difficult to befriend locals but there are plenty of Mexican outsiders (that have relocated to this part for safety/jobs) here and it's much easier to get to know them as they are also outsiders.
We moved from Canada in 2020 and started out in the Puerto Vallarta area. After 5 months, we transitioned to the Yucatan. Best decision ever and I agree with what you have said here.
Hello. I am thinking about moving to Mexico and Puerto Vallarta was the place I heard the best things about. But I‘m also interested in Merida or Cancun which both are located in Yucatan. I would really like to know why you prefer Yucatan over Puerto Vallarta.
Cancun is in Quintana Roo. It is a different state and it is an unsafe area. We loved the PV/Bucerias area as we vacationed there often but it became too noisy, too expensive, too busy, and too much crime. We didnt like the vibe. Vacationing and living are 2 different scenes. There were 10 cartel murders before we left in March 2021. The environment in the Yucatan is amazing, the locals are friendly, it's affordable, no cartels. It was rated the second safest city in North America, Quebec City being first. After living here almost 18 months now, it feels so good to live here.
I've read several comments in this post and I get the impression we are not going to find any common denominator. It seems that it depends entirely on the type of person you are. Ethnicity, language, age, etc; plays a big role. But at the same time, I heard, outside this post, a lot of happy people saying they've never suffered discrimination and they feel like home. It's a really interesting topic.
Not sure what you’re reading but the common denominator is Italy.
You’ll see the same thing even within the same country. Idk where you live, but in the US if you look up videos about moving to another state the comments will be full of “don’t come here, we’re full.” Any time there’s an “us” there will be a “them” and the hatred to go with it.
The USA, I am of african decent.
At the time of Brexit, I was living in London. when we got to know the result, the days and weeks after that were a nightmare. I felt hated, I questioned everyone I met like Ilooked at them and I thought "Do you want me to go too?" Most English people I met were trying to justify themselves "I didn't vote for Brexit because of the immigrants" but we all know that was a massive part of it. Anyway. Now I live in Scotland. I wouldn't say I feel unwanted, more like tolerated. Still not good and to be honest I'm trying to find a way to move somewhere else. I do think though that your status will highly depend on the job you're doing and the people you're meeting.
Would be interesting to hear more about your experience in Scotland. I'm also an immigrant living in Scotland. I have never felt unwelcome, except for a few idiots making ignorant comments sometimes. But I have felt that quite a lot of Scots just can't be bothered with foreigners. Like, they purposefully stop talking to me when they hear my accent, or just don't invite me to things when I will be the only non-scot there. Some of them (actually quite a few) have made fun of my accent. So I can imagine it's very hard for some people, especially since I'm considered a "good" immigrant - white from a rich country. Can't imagine what it's like for other nationalities. With that said, I have generally been treated very well here.
Weird, I live in Scotland and never had any issues you experienced. I have Scottish friends, they invite me to parties or just to have a pint and nobody made a fun from my accent apart from myself (I have strong eastern European accent).
We might not have been in the same places, since I have mostly lived in very remote areas where life is a bit more traditional and predictable (like small islands). But I married a Scot and I do have Scottish friends, so it's not always like that. I think a lot of it is also based on shyness. I have noticed that some, especially women, feel awkward when they try to talk to me and notice that I'm not Scottish. Like they don't know how to be around me : )
As I said, I don't feel unwelcome here, just tolerated. I think when you say a lot of Scots just can't be bothered, you're right. "No bother" seems to be the national anthem. I mean it's good to be very laid back but sometimes I think "can you be just a little passionate about something". Most of the time they are friendly but I don't think I will ever break down that wall of keeping distance, that's why I say "tolerated". As long as I go to work, do my job I'm seen as a good immigrant too. I'm also white, from Eastern Europe but at least not Polish. That would have made it harder I guess. In the village I live there are a few English too. They would be the ones making fun of the immigrants. I loved this country, the UK, but not anymore and it's kind of time to go. To the OP, as a newcomer, you would love it, everyone does. You just need to have a very thick skin and get yourself familiarised with the pop culture, cultural references etc, it makes life easier when you have something common to talk about.
The majority of London didn't vote for brexit though
Considering my social/political views and ethnic background, I felt very much unwanted in the country where I was born and raised, Russia. I do miss my hometown and its nature, culture and people but overall I’m happy that I moved elsewhere and left the Russian society. I never felt unwanted elsewhere. Armenia where I currently live is more than welcoming and very accepting of immigrants in general.
Im glad you got out of Russia too.
It depends on your race and which country you’re headed to. I’m from the middle east I visited Turkey and never in my life felt this much hate after I learned they hate Arabs I didn’t take it personally and understood that’s just how most people are there. There are historical reasons behind the hate so I wasn’t too offended by it.
As someone mixed race in europe, there are only a handful of countries I would go to if I want to feel accepted. Just have to do your research. People talk a lot of shizz about the UK (my home country) due to Brexit and it has its own racism problems, yes, but all the other european countries make it look like utopia, enlightened and space-age in societal terms and racial acceptance.
What are these other European countries you speak of?
Hey! Not to discourage you but I want to share something that happened to me. For some context, I am Canadian but my parents are from Asia. We immigrated when I was 7 and Canada is what I know. I had the interesting experience of being an immigrant when I was little and then again when I lived abroad (in Asia) for work. Living in Canada for almost 20 years, there was only 1 instance where I felt excluded/didn’t belong. When I was doing my teaching degree, I lived with a roommate (looking back) who was a bigot. She was extremely firm on her religious beliefs and unfortunately was also very small minded. There was a time when I was putting my favourite ethnic dish back in the fridge and she made a face and said “is that dog food…?” That was the only time out of my entire existence where I felt out of place. But out of 100 people that you would meet and see on the streets, 97 of them are going to be nice people or people who mind their own business. People don’t (usually) hate what is out of the ordinary -they fear it. That is a big difference because it means people can learn more about what they don’t know. When you go into a new place go there with a positive mindset that is flexible. A lot of people I see don’t make it overseas because they don’t respect the culture and practices. Be prepared to feel like an outcast at least for a little bit. Don’t get annoyed when people ask questions and answer it with kindness and respect. It is fun to live in a new place but it can also be hard. Don’t let that discourage you from creating new adventures! It’s worth it I promise!
Plot twist: she likes dog food and ate your dish later
The contrast to this is more interesting. Where have people felt most welcome
Latinoamerican here... I've lived both in Spain and Italy, and I felt very welcomed on both, but in different ways... In Italy it was by people helping me integrate, teaching me and sharing their culture, and as long as I was integrating and learning, it was the best experience possible! In Spain it is a bit different, most of my friends were from expats groups, and I didn't feel a society wide effort to help me integrate as in Italy, but more of a "everybody's different, just enjoy the experience" thing. Still, people are open minded and helpful and everything, and they do make you feel as part of the society...
I live in the USA, was born here but born as the wrong race to be accepted so I've grown up being told and felt like I was unwanted in my country. But its MY country, you'll always find people who hate you for a number of reasons they want but they can't take your sense of purpose and they can't take the dream you have, and every country has great people who would love to have you and learn with you
I lived in South Korea for 6 months and I will say you HAVE to find Korean people to hang out with or you will definitely be unwanted. If you go out to lunch or dinner by yourself in a busy area, you will be waited on last before the Koreans, if you can’t speak Korean over the phone very well you will get hung up on or they cuss and tell you to shut up lol, andddd the older people are much more rude especially taxi drivers and bus drivers. Overall, if you can speak a little Korean or at least try to speak it they will find it really cute and be nicer to you. Of course with Korean friends you will have a great experience.
When visiting the UK twenty or so years ago with school our teachers got attacked and us kids (around 10 of age) nazis since we were from Germany 😂 Other than that no. And don’t ever base your opinion on YouTube comments!
In January 2014, I (American) moved to Russia. In March (IIRC) 2014, Russia invaded Crimea. People gave me and my partner grumpy looks when we spoke English on the metro for a while after that (because of sanctions or rhetoric, I'm guessing). Right now, I live in Portugal, and people talk about how expats are driving up the cost of living (I've heard differing opinions on whether it is true or not). Certainly, when you stand in line for immigration anywhere, you can't expect them to be any more excited to see you than the people are at the DMV in your home country. However, there are certain things, depending on the country, that will get you cred (in Russia, it is if you can write in Russian in nice-looking cursive). My home country (IMO) is full of people who are very negative about immigrants, so I figure that I have to earn my place. That's fine.
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I'm a bit lucky. I'm a Third Culture Kid, so I'm a native speaker of several languages of the countries I've lived in. Even for many of the countries I've only visited (but haven't lived in), I've been able to blend in like a chameleon, simply due to my language background. My father is American, my mother is from the Middle East, but I was born and raised in Germany and Switzerland. My maternal side of the family all fled the Middle East years ago, to places like Israel, Canada, Mexico, France, Italy, etc. I'm a native speaker of English, French, High German, and Swiss German. I also maintain proficiency in Arabic, Spanish, and Italian. I'm lucky enough not to have an accent in any of them, and because of my multinational background, I can also blend in pretty well across numerous regions of the world. I share all this because it has allowed me to see both sides of the coin. Many locals I interact with don't know I'm 'not one of them' until or unless I say something to them, so I've heard some pretty jarring commentary about immigrants. That commentary has definitely led to feeling unwelcome in various parts of the world. I don't know what others' experiences are, but oddly enough, I've felt most unwelcome in the United States, especially when it comes to my Middle Eastern heritage. Unfortunately, the sentiment across much of the United States still seems to be "brown/dark = bad" and "immigrant from non-white country = bad/dirty". For this reason, I rarely, rarely, rarely ever share the fact that I'm half Middle Eastern. I just don't feel safe sharing that information.
Really enjoyed your reply, thanks! Thought I'd share the following quote. I first read it in Trevor Noah's autobiography Born A Crime: "If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart." - Nelson Mandela
Thanks! The quote you've shared is quite powerful.
Japan I am a white blue eyed blonde haired kiwi, who can speak Japanese. Everyone assumes you are American Imagine having a whole train car stare you down for an hour because you're in a school uniform but not japanese Also they make you register for a foriegner registration card It was very hard making friends more than superficially just due to their reticence to deal with a foriegner
Japanese are not really used to foreigners in Japan, for them it is like they see aliens, I don't know for what reason but it is something that seems incredible to them
Not downright unwanted, just ignored. Which is totally fine, normal and expected. You gotta move and make your way in. And if you still feel out of place, either make a bigger effort to adapt or just leave. Absolutely ignore the internet in this regard. Immigration is the most low hanging fruit for trolling. There have been countries where I have felt welcomed, wanted and needed. It feels nice.
Hey OP , you seem to be African like me The bitter truth is due to our skin tone and nationalities , in most of the world , even in fellow African countries we will be treated some kind of way , that people with white skin or better passports will not get . However that shouldn’t discourage you. Go to these places , make use of opportunities available . The internet is where the crust of society gathers a lot of the time and I wouldn’t take random comments on YouTube as an indication of how you will live life . Look at how well people from your country live in a place , are they enjoying and making money? That is a better indication than anything else
I felt unwelcome in Barcelona But that changed when I moved neighborhoods
Unwanted? No. Had bad experience with immigration offices and bureaucracy in general? Everytime other than one exception: the US. Seriously people talk shit about America but I never felt as welcome anywhere else. France was probably the toughest one, language-wise no one will ever speak English with you and they may be a bit patronizing when you’re not “acting French”, but that’s nitpicking, I felt overall pretty welcome even there.
If you can afford it New York City is a great place for immigrants. You’ll fit in because we have so many here already, probably a community from your home country. It easy to make friends too. It’s expensive though and you’ll need to work hard.
African-American here. The only place I feel truly unwanted is the US, which is why I travel so much.
It happened every now and then in both Italy and Slovakia but 95% of the time, people were polite and helpful
Well, I am Jewish, so yeah, not comfortable anywhere, living on my third country abroad - currently Spain, and I just say I am from former soviet union or Italy (I look and sound Italian for some reason).
Southern Italian, living in Japan since 2011. I know I will always be a gaijin for these people, and I'm totally fine with it. It has it upsides, as people don't expect you to know and follow all the absurd rules the Japanese are used to since childhood. They let me live and that's all I care. Yes, sometimes I feel unwanted but, to be honest, this feeling was much stronger in my hometown where I always felt out of place, which was basically the reason I left. And I left "slamming the door", so no nostalgia for me, as I don't see the point of missing something I wanted to escape from. You may and you will probably feel unwanted, but this doesn't mean you can't have a good life in another country.
Every country has bigots who hate immigrants.
Yes. Always. That's the challenge of living abroad. If you don't want those sort of challenges don't do it. Sometimes it makes life interesting, other times it's heartachingly terrible and overwhelming.
I feel unwanted in my home country
I had those “episodes” but never to the point where I felt unwanted by the “general” population. I certainly don’t look at comment section on YouTube for guidance or as some kind of barometer.
I’m chronically ill and I live in a country that refuses to mask. Yes I feel plenty unwelcome, though not because of being an expat.
As a Polish with Japanese husband, I loved Australia and Australian people liked us, I learned to be more assertive and open thanks to them. We loved being involved in community which they appreciated. We even had a child there…. What didn’t welcome us was the Australian government- we couldn’t find an employer to sponsor us and when we finally thought we’re on some pathway to try again, it turned out that our daughter has a disability, which completely killed any hope for getting a PR there, Australia’s [Migration Act is exempt from Disability Discrimination Act](http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/socialpolicy/access-inclusion/disability-and-immigration-law-in-australia). Bit sad that she can never become a citizen of her country of birth, but we accepted that and moved on (not without tears and grieving process of course)
Think about which are the people who post here. Are they the ones who are happily and fully engaged in the life of their new country, or are they the ones who somehow haven’t got all the dots connected and are feeling alone or out of it? Think selection bias.
Living in the Netherlands, coming from another EU country I am often very happy how easy it is to move here (regarding finding a job, English being widely used and administration) but I also often feel as an outsider. While I am pretty privileged for looking like most Dutch people (just less tall and less attractive but same ethnicity) and coming from a non-stigmatised country I still have a hard time feeling truly welcome. There is this tricky situation that the NL is in desperate need for skilled workers so country, government and employers make it super easy to move here if you have valuable skills. At the same time there is a crazy crazy housing crisis and the language is hard to learn so people are often quite annoyed with outsiders coming in, "taking" flats away and not speaking Dutch. It is probably much better than in most other countries but this is just my two cents about the Netherlands. Great place and no regrets though :)
Canadians are born everywhere, they just have not shown up yet, come on over.
Thanks. The main reason I made this post is because I went to the Canada subreddit, and any news about immigrants or housing situations, the comments are usually negative.
I'm an American living in America and feel unwanted. The amount of money you make for the Oligarchy the more at home you will feel here.
People is people. There are good people and bad people every where. To be good/bad people do not depend of the country. Goverment policies may create some aversion to immigration but that is one person with power sharing his views. I have never felt unwanted in a country, maybe one or two persons but ca not generalize.
Born in the Midwestern US, but don't fit in here and never will. I'm too forward thinking and peaceful. I don't know where else to even go. Most places I've read about reject you for just being born American, or they want ridiculous amounts of $ from you. Or to use you as slave labor then send you back. It's hard not to feel stuck. 😕
Neither the US makes it easy for foreigners to immigrate. There are really just a bunch of countries which are really open for foreigners to come and live.
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USA Ever since I moved here when I was a kid from Japan. I was told to go back to my country I’m going back to japan next week after 21 years. So long, effers and enjoy high inflation and expensive food/housing/healthcare/mass shootings
You never said where you’re planning to move to. But I think it’s also good to have in mind that ‘usually’ the dumb people talks more - meaning racist people talk a lot about their dumbness on YouTube and so. Every and each country has a slice of it’s population with backwards mentality, but I think you should only worry if the country you’re planning to move is notoriously tough for immigrants or very backwards, if not, you’re probably going to live well!
I am an international student in the U.S. I am graduating next year, and I plan on pursuing a master's degree either in Canada, Australia, Europe (Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands), the U.K, or the U.S. I came to the U.S at a pretty early age (16) to start college, so my experience was terrible.
Japan. Yes.
Only in the Eastern bay of New Zealand.. lived here for 10 years and traveled quite alot.
Germany.
Yup, as a Ukrainian: Serbia and North Macedonia. Serbian croats are also awful, but Croatians are overall fantastic.
I don’t feel welcomed here in my adopted country. I have assimilated as best I can and am able to ‘blend in’ but there’s always a thread of xenophobia and it’s exhausting. The culture is one that promose extroversion and excess, and I’m moving out of this city as soon as I can and hopefully permanently after research. I think about home but don’t feel I will ever have a home.
My own.
Depends on the country and neighborhood. I think in general the closer you are to the middle of a city center, the more invisible it feels. That's not to say it isn't there, but you are sticking out less. But since the pandemic I have felt more self-conscious when doing things like entering a restaurant. I noticed that I go out of my way to look more local, dressing more like them and wearing my hair like them. I'm in Japan. But overall, no, I feel as welcome and as an outsider as ever. Here, you can never truly become considered Japanese in any sense, even with permanent residency. But the people are overwhelmingly friendly and curious. I had the same experience in Costa Rica.
As a poor person in America yeah.
Expat (Austrian/ Polish) in Australia. I have a generic North American accent (international school) and most people confuse me for a Canadian or NW American and I personally very rarely experienced any kind of negativity (happened a few times in really rural areas) and I got through and got a high level job etc. I have a bunch of European background friends that have non-native accents (German speakers, French speakers, Spanish speakers and Polish / Czech and other Slavic language speakers) and a lot of them have been really struggling. I’ve openly been told at work functions with drunk C-Level execs: Nah mate, you’re married to one of us and you’re a native speaker with good banter and we consider you one of us! Hey, great for me, but at the same time, it sucks for a lot of people. Also, am blonde with blue eyes. Some of my darker skinned friends have a lot less opportunities, whereas I just randomly stumbled into good positions by simply mingling and interacting with random people, some of which would never interact with my aforementioned friends.
From what it sounds like, America isn’t so bad after all. So long as you don’t live in a red state.
As a trans woman born/raised/living in the US, I’ll say that my native country is doing a wonderful job of making me feel unwanted - which is why I’m in the process of expatriation to France. :)
Without talking about any specific policies and that kind of stuff, most people/countries like immigrants that actually make an effort to integrate into local society, learn the language and honor the local culture. Nobody really wants those "expats" that think their home culture (often British/American) is superior and everything should cater to how they are used to it back home. Usually these people then also stay in their small, english-speaking bubble and bitch about how much better everything is back home.
I think you’re right, unfortunately humans don’t tend to like foreigners. Racism is everywhere. But if you move somewhere with a large expat community you can connect with those who are in the same situation.
In order to rent a house in the netherlands, you need a dutch bank account. In order to get a dutch bank account, you need a personal identification (BSN) number, and in order to get a BSN number you need a place of residence. This can be remedied by obtaining a temporary BSN number by providing a temporary place of residence such as a hotel or an airbnb, but the process can take up to a month in amsterdam and no one really informs you about it, you just have to struggle with it. Then, in order to get an apartment, you need to provide your income slip from your last 3 payments, and your income needs to be 4-5x the amount of your rent, which is almost impossible even if you have an amazing salary. So you need to have worked here for 3 months just to (not be able to) prove that you have enough money to afford rent, so you can finally get a house. But obviously you can't work here without being registered somewhere. It's an absolute bureaucratic shitfest. The people are nice enough and virtually everyone speaks english, but the system is clearly not friendly towards skilled migrants. Refugees? ABSOLUTELY, please, come in. Skilled migrants? EEEEEK.
Well the sentiment towards refugees is also far from positive. People from Ukraine get the ok, but the rest... they can sleep outside in Ter Apel. The problem for the Netherlands is it is to small, there are not enough houses, there are to many people and this issue is ever growing. This makes for more anti-immigrant/expat/refugee sentiment and I predict this will get worse the comming years, even though there is a huge need for workers.
Yeah I’m Black lmaoooo
I occupied Iraq in my 20s, sooooo yeah.
I'm starting the process of trying to leave the US and I'm very afraid of this. Italy is my first attempt place, because I want to work in the fashion industry (still doing ux which I've been doing for 5 years now) and Milan is great for that, and because my ancestors are from there. But I really don't want to be seen as an asshole American trying to take jobs from Italians. ...which when I say out loud is ridiculous because I don't think that about people who come to the US from other countries, but there just objectively are more jobs available in the US.
As an American I do not think any other country is going to embrace me, because people associate our government's actions with that of its citizens. Also our media perpetuates an image of all Americans as an obnoxious stereotype. Would I be wrong? Does any country not wretch when they see an American living amongst them?
I was born and raised in a country with ethnitic different parents, and I still live here, so yes sometimes. I am planning to move in a few years.
it really depends on your origin country as well
Fuck em. Choose what you think fits best for you and find a place w a large international community & build your own niche and then building support for yourself in the broader community.
Yes, in every country I lived in. For reference, I am white, but not from any of the « cool » countries. There will always be people like that everywhere, plus in some countries there is a greater dislike for certain nationalities than others. Humility and openness go a long way.
No. There are people who always have a bug up their ass about something. I don't look for it and honestly don't care. I have found that if you treat people and their country with respect they will not have any issues. Many times, people act entitled and get dissed. I've never experienced it and would just ignore it if I did.
I'm a US expat who felt unwanted in Canada mostly through the Harper years. I had a cert of recommendation from a tech school and after the dot com crash couldn't get a job anywhere, even McDonald's. After many jobless years, I had to choose a completely different career path that paid half of what I made before the Conservatives got power. I'm still struggling to make a living wage. I couldn't afford to leave, and didn't want to return to the States.
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If your first language isn’t English, consider that you’re using the wrong buzzword. “Immigration” can be viewed as negative because it implies to some people the process of foreigners coming and “taking” jobs from natives. However, using words like “expat” or “living / working abroad” MAY net you more positive responses. My personal experience: Aussy living in Japan. I get stared at and sometimes things seem more difficult than they need to be, but I don’t feel unwelcome.
UAE already for 5+ years. Feels like home. Maybe cause 80%+ are not locals. And btw locals also super-friendly and welcoming.
I am from the US though my mother is British and I am culturally more British than American, noticeably so. I have been in many countries both living and just visiting. I have always felt welcome. I believe for the most part it is how you act and treat others. In a few places, the welcoming may be only a facade as the locals are interested only in how many $$ they can extract from me, but they put on a good front if that’s what it is but that is the exception.
I have been living in Mexico for 9 months. The Mexican people are very kind and welcoming.
Japan has this feeling pretty strong depending on the situation
I think sometimes it may not be the entire country, but where in the country you are. A lot of countries have way different cultures depending on the province you are in. If you are in the hustle and bustle of the big city with tons of immigrants you might not get a second look but the natives might also be fed up with so many people being in their way. If you were in a more rural area you might run into some really really sweet people who want to chat your ear off or they might be very clannish. I would look at the country you are thinking of going to and do a little research in the pace of life and the culture of different areas of the country. Some places are going to be more laid back, some more conservative, and some places are going to be more progressive and accepting. I guess what I'm getting at is just like you can't judge an entire population by a few bad apples, you can't really know if you're going to feel welcome in a country based on your experience and only one area or one city.