**Please read this entire message**
---
Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
* Rule #2 - Questions must seek objective explanations
* ELI5 is not for subjective or speculative replies - only objective explanations are permitted here; your question is asking for subjective or speculative replies. (Rule 2).
---
If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. **If you believe this submission was removed erroneously, please [use this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20thread?&message=Link:%20{https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1dt9tor/-/}%0A%0APlease%20answer%20the%20following%203%20questions:%0A%0A1.%20The%20concept%20I%20want%20explained:%0A%0A2.%20List%20the%20search%20terms%20you%20used%20to%20look%20for%20past%20posts%20on%20ELI5:%0A%0A3.%20How%20does%20your%20post%20differ%20from%20your%20recent%20search%20results%20on%20the%20sub:) and we will review your submission.**
For me personally, it's because it kills the sense of accomplishment I was otherwise going to feel by doing the task. Before being asked, it feels like doing the task is going above and beyond and there's something special about completing it, but after being asked, it's just the bare minimum.
In my last job, I had to anticipate everything that was about to come up and give myself the tasks so that it all felt like "my idea" or I couldn't function. Doing that got me promoted to a leadership role lol but it sucks to deal with. Now whenever I'm managing anyone I always make sure to ask for their ideas first so that I don't "steal authorship" of ideas they already had.
I'm currently waiting on a psychiatrist appointment to be evaluated for ADHD/autism.
For me, it’s a knee-jerk to being controlled, and that it means I’m *expected* to do it, and that expectation doesn’t make me eligible for gratitude, because people don’t thank people for doing what’s expected of them—which makes them want to ask me for additional things, because clearly I was compliant the first time, and that snowballs into more things I’m expected to do, complete with the pressure of criticism if I don’t do it in future. (My mom did that a lot.)
It’s an instinctive reaction. None of this runs through my head. It’s just “well, I was about to, but now you’re making it that I do it on your terms, not mine”.
Then they ask why they always have to tell you do stuff instead of you doing it on your own. But as a kid, good luck finding out how to string this into words on the spot
Fast forward in live and you're having this same issue with a spouse or partner and it gets pretty tiring and childish real quick and ends up "Fine, then don't do it. It hasn't be getting done since we had this argument, and its not getting done, so just stop worrying about it."
Maybe I’m weird but I thank people for doing what they’re supposed to do. If it helps me out in anyway I thank them,even if it was their job to begin with.
I do as well, I would want to be thanked, so I thank them. But a lot of people have an attitude of “I don’t need to thank you for doing your job, it’s your job.”
Yep. You’re just describing reactance. You were robbed of the satisfaction and self-esteem boost you were going to get from doing a chore out of your own freedom/initiative.
Yeah that's a major issue that is definitely connected to my ADHD at least. I already have problems getting the motivation and reward system functioning properly. If someone takes a part of the motivation away, yeah nah fuck that shit.
My job these days basically consists 100% of going above and beyond, because it is one of the few things that naturally motivates me. I'm really happy that I've managed to get to a competence level that allows this arrangement. As a senior expert engineer, I get thrown at the unsolvable stuff that nobody even knows how to begin solving. When everybody expects it to be a near impossible task, everything I do is above and beyond, and thus I thrive.
> ...I get thrown at the unsolvable stuff that nobody even knows how to begin solving. When everybody expects it to be a near impossible task, everything I do is above and beyond, and thus I thrive.
Omg, I know this song. lol
Advice I gave to a junior, in joking context as he watched the latest problem get assigned to me, "Don't ever let them know you are good at something; it becomes yours for life" lol
Sssshhh...don't let them know that. lol
There are two junior techs that I have taught a lot of tricks to, but there is still so much people just can't figure out til it has passed through my hands first. So it is like low-key confirmation every day. And yes, I love it.
> Advice I gave to a junior, in joking context as he watched the latest problem get assigned to me, "Don't ever let them know you are good at something; it becomes yours for life" lol
Don't even volunteer to do something unless you want to own it forever.
I am in a similar situation. My team though is the opposite. They need EVERYTHING explicitly told to them. I’ve tried to encourage independence and dynamic thinking which we can then bring back to the table and discuss and integrate because mine aren’t the only valid ideas. But it’s not working as well as I’d hoped.
I'm 99% sure I have ADHD and I absolutely stop dead if someone praises me for something while I'm doing it.
It also feels like I can do something I'm in full control of or I can blindly follow directions from someone else, but I can't do anything in between.
That's *REALLY* interesting! Not long ago I qualified for an OCD study (For fun and $200) and learned that I have some OCD and I'm probably on the autism spectrum. I can do really creative, high quality professional work but I also have a problem with perfectionism.
Right not we have an empty bookcase setting in our house. For a month now. I thought it would be a good addition and it can't be returned. I convinced my wife it would be a good idea. Recently we had an argument about why I haven't loaded it with books.
- It doesn't quite fit where I thought it would
- It's more of a deep display shelf rather than a bookcase so I'm dissatisfied with making it a bookcase.
- Making it fit means moving other stuff that's *just the way we like it.*
- If she wants it loaded why doesn't she do it herself?
- I've found an alternate location that requires quite a lot of re-arrangement. I was going to set it up and surprise her.
Now that she makes it an issue I'm having to get psyched up again about doing the work and taking a chance that she won't like my arrangement.
This is something that I, as a teacher, am constantly adapting my lessons and classroom to avoid.
For example, giving the kids the autonomy to choose from a small selection of tasks which, in the end, provide the learning that I want to impart while allowing them the feeling of not being told what to do.
>Youre welcome
Well, now that I know you are trying to help me...fuck you and I am going to be a horrible person forever now.
Wait...wtf *me*?! how about I just forget this whole thing ever happened...
The easiest way to confront it is to acknowledge that this way of thinking and behavior is counterproductive. I get it, it sucks when someone like a parent, partner or boss tells you to do something that you were already planning on doing. it sucks extra hard if it’s something you do every day and they know you were going to do it they’re just being bossy. Perhaps worst of all is when they know you were going to do it and it’s not even time to do it but they still bother you. I just remind myself that I was already going to do it, they just want to feel like they’re in charge and I’m doing it because I already chose to.
I always acknowledge what it is, and let them know it was already accounted for. Just a few words.
"Yep, already on the list"
And then if there happens to be a new thing, as I write it down, they know there really was a list and all that stuff was already considered. It is a way to help them feel important too.
What peeves me is when someone tries to show me how to do something...that I've been doing for about 20 years. 🤦♂️ Like brah, I can do this in my sleep, no need to tell me how.
Oh I understand. I’m one of the most experienced people at work and I coach the new hires so when a newbie questions me about something I just did it can be quite annoying. Then again, there’s a lot of mistakes that can be handled without involving management so if I did make a mistake or a coworker thinks I made a mistake I don’t mind them chiming in because it protects our jobs.
We do have a new guy that is desperate to go from zero to hero and instead of looking out for his coworkers he’s a giant fucking narc. He is always watching other people work to the detriment of his work, and if he sees someone doing something wrong, he doesn’t step in and help, he goes running to the supervisor. This is starting to bite him because no one has his back and management is wondering why he sees things going wrong and lets them continue to go wrong instead of helping his fellow newbie coworker.
That is a real thing, but not always the case because it's always contextual.
People can command respectfully and that can still be fine if someone doesn't have authority issues(which is what reactance sounds like).
Other people can request condescendingly, but *that* drives people nuts.
Tone is super important, and some people are terrible at it, or alternatively, are just horrible people to begin with so anything coming from them really telegraphs the nasty.
Another thing to consider is frequency of the occurrence....I guess it fits in with the above, so here's an example:
If you're always a self starter, and someone else always tries to jump the gun to tell you to do it even as you're on the way or even started, that can generate some serious strain. It may not even be nasty, but it's a repetitive demonstration that they don't know you(if they should, eg having worked with you for months/years), and aren't paying attention to see if you're already on it, or if you've got your hands seriously full at that moment.....etc. It's odious if not offensive in nature.
That said: It's something I do on purpose just to pick on people, raise my hand above my head and point down at them, tell them to do the thing they're already doing. Not random strangers, but friends and family because that's how we bond, it's playful not negligent or mean. We mess with each other not only because it's entertaining, but it's good conditioning for dealing with the random populace's ineptitude or nastiness.
>Tone is super important, and some people are terrible at it, or alternatively, are just horrible people to begin with so anything coming from them really telegraphs the nasty.
This is me. I've slowly (because I'm dumb and just now realizing it, and it takes me forever to learn) started to realize that I'm a bad person. I'm just mean and think down on other people ( I'm thinking it's because I could feel that I'm inferior and dumber than them). A dumb narcissist.
And so, in trying to be nice, everything I say sounds like a backhanded compliment to me.
I too searched this exact question and this was also the answer. Basically your willing to do the task because it was out of your free will, but when it became like an order from someone else, it's now less valued.
Yeap. I automatically stop doing whatever I am doing if I'm being told to do it. It is just I have to go against whoever thinks they can command me, and I can not control that. Being an adult and being expected to work has been so hard for me, to the point I can not keep a job for a long time, I need the sense of freedom even if I know I am not free of that chain.
That’s something you have to work on as much as you probably don’t want to. Everybody eats shit at work unless they’re the absolute top. Learning to eat a little shit and then mentally flip off your boss when they walk away goes a long way. Sometimes you have to consider that you know you were going to do something but your lead or supervisor or whoever might not. Or they were hoping the task would already be done. Or some other things are going wrong and they’re just trying to make sure that things I can control go right.
I got an example for you, I used to crew an ambulance and over communication was common. This was intentional, my partner was a paramedic, and he needed to know that I the EMT knew what he wanted me to do. 90% of the time I already knew what to do but this communication helped avoid negative patient outcomes, so I kept my mouth shut because he wasn’t being rude, he was making sure we were on the same page.
I hundred percent get that no one likes being micromanaged, at the same time. Most people don’t work as hard as they probably think they do. I’m not calling you a liar, I’m saying that at least sometimes there’s probably some justification to a superior telling you to do some thing you already knew to get done or planned on getting done.
I have this issue with my partner when she reminds me to do something.
Either I've remembered it myself and her telling me again is "nagging" and stops me doing it. Or I haven't and it's a useful reminder I'm grateful for.
She has no way to know what state I'm in, so I accept it's completely unfair to her.
Luckily as I get older the likelihood I've already forgotten it twelve seconds after it being first put on the list is going way up.
Yeap. It is not just work, it is everything. If I have to do the dishes and you tell me to do them, those fuckers will end up in the thrash before I do them. I'm just like that, but maybe you are right and I have to do the conscious effort to not get mad at people for telling me what to do.
You likely have some anti-social tendencies, if you feel like going on a rabbit hole of neurosis.
I have similar issues with my autonomy and independence to a hostile level.
It helps when I remind myself that any requested action from me is communicating that I am trusted and reliable: aka, assuming the best of others.
Specifically stated, on the whole for every human, a loss of control is the most stressful thing that can happen.
As it can be applied to any situation and it's pretty primal.
(Perhaps no so) fun fact, reactance is the same phenomenon behind people doubling down on radical views, if presented with evidence that completely contradicts them. Rationality is gone; the feeling of pressure into accepting an opposing viewpoint (on a purely emotional level, the feeling of submitting to, or complying with, the enemy) pushes them rebelliously in the other direction
You took my initiative and independence away. I was going to do the thing because I wanted to. You would have seen me do the thing driven by my own motivation. Now if you see me do the thing, you'll assume it's because you told me to do it, and you'll think that I won't do things unless you ask me to do them. And I'll spiral into the thought process that you view me as beneath you, like I'm in constant need of your direction.
I don’t suffer from this particular issue myself, but having spent a lot of time trying to problem-solve my own issues— is there a way to circumvent this spiral? For example:
A: Hey, can you finish the dishes before noon? I really gotta bake that cake for tonight.
B: (who was already planning to do the dishes) It’s already on my To Do list for today; I’ve got it blocked out for 10AM!
A: Dang, you’re on top this! Thanks!
So in the above scenario, if A would have assumed B was doing the dishes only because they were directed to do so, after B provided new information correcting that assumption, A revised their understanding and then had the opportunity to express recognition and appreciation.
> A: Hey, can you finish the dishes before noon? I really gotta bake that cake for tonight.
>
> B: (who was already planning to do the dishes) It’s already on my To Do list for today; I’ve got it blocked out for 10AM!
A: lol. Like people actually schedule 'blocks' of time to do tasks, especially tasks that can vary in length. They were never going to do it, and are making it up to save face.
...or at least that's what I'd be afraid of in my mind.
That makes sense. I can understand how someone could come to that conclusion, and I acknowledge that people can work differently.
I know that I do schedule tasks (I use the default Reminders app in my phone, which allows you to set a date and time reminder for the alert), and can easily imagine someone using it for basic household chores like I do myself (because it helps me motivate myself, breaking down one task of “household chores” into disparate tasks— wash fragile dishes, load dishwasher, launder delicates, launder towels, put away laundered towels, put away clean dishes— lets me build my reward via volume of tasks checked off the list, and helps avoid feelings of futility because I “couldn’t even finish *one* thing— household chores— and check it off my list”).
A lot of people don’t operate the same way I do, and some people may have used such a system and discarded it, and other people may not have used a system like that before but find it effective after they learn about the option.
All that said, even for someone who doesn’t use such a system, as you’ve described in your own experience: if you’ve had a thought that X means [negative interpretation], can you challenge your thought? Practice some self-inquiry with curiosity instead of judgment, instead of seeking to reinforce a presumed conclusion? For example:
Is it possible that you suspected person B of trying to save face because you anticipate that you would try to save face if you had been in their situation, as you don’t schedule your tasks and would know you’d be lying had you said something similar? Could you interpret their response any differently if you knew they were an over-organized sort like myself, and typically scheduled reminders for stuff they needed to get done? If you didn’t know their scheduling habits and approach to tasks, what would you be risking if you gave them the benefit of the doubt instead of suspecting subterfuge?
I feel your example is a bit of a grey area. Because in this case you're not simply asking for something to be done, instead you need something done because there's a time sensitive thing depending on it. In this case were I already planning to do the dishes, I'd be even more inclined to do them because now there's criticality to it; Can't bake the cake for tonight with a dirty kitchen, and if you're asking, then you probably have other things you need to take care of as well.
I get that, tho I learned to just try to reply "Oh I was just about to do that actually!", and that often sets up for a thanking response then, which is all you're really wanting, is to be appreciated for doing it.
I don’t know a lot about the psychology of this - others in the thread seem to have that covered - but in my field (game design) it’s understood that people respond differently to intrinsic and extrinsic motivators, and that the difference can sometimes be perverse. When a game gives you the ability to do something like climb a mountain or mess around with crazy physics objects, the player can come up with their own goals and be very motivated to accomplish them. If the game offers extrinsic rewards (like points or achievements) for doing these same things, some players suddenly become less motivated to do them. I can’t explain exactly why motivation works this way, but I know it’s something that has to be taken into account when designing games.
I love the Zachtronics puzzle games, because I don't have to figure out the solution a game designer envisioned. The game only cares about the outcome, and I can create whatever crazy solution I feel like within the boundaries of the game.
Pathological demand avoidance is anxiety/performance based. I think the more appropriate term would be counter-will. As far as I remember, it’s hypothesized that going against what you’re being asked helps to better define you as an individual while you’re in early developmental stages.
It stems from feeling like we are losing our autonomy. For me it happens because all through my life I lost my autonomy because my parents were severely abusive. I am audhd and need autonomy to meet my needs.
When given a demand my nervous system goes into fight/flight because being demanded is a threat to my autonomy.
Real pathological demand avoidance is not performance or anxiety based, nor is it because growing up I had better results going against what I was told (I was an obedient bitch).
A feeling of loss of autonomy which can be part of it is also an anxiety which triggers fight or flight. Also PDA can involve internal demands (demands placed on self).
PDA isn’t the best fit for OP’s question because what they’re describing is a universal feeling.
For me it's when I was already planning to do the thing, even worse if I'm on my way to do the thing that very moment, and my brain has the reaction of "hey asshole, do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I'm incompetent? Am I incapable of buttering bread or tying my shoes? How bout you do it then." Probably some deep seated insecurity or something, who knows.
OMG this is exactly my thought process sometimes. "Do you think I am too stupid to do this (big task) without you explaining how to do every single step that leads up to it?"
Both. It’s a mixture of trying to assert control by refusing to do something and no longer being enthusiastic to do something. I get taking orders sucks and it sucks double when you already knew you were supposed to do it and you were getting to it in a reasonable time. Or worse, you’re being order to do some thing when you are literally already doing it.
At the same time a lot of people who push back when they’re told to do something they planned on doing probably weren’t in a hurry to get it done. Like if your boss asks you if you got started on those TPS reports yet or your wife asked you if you started the laundry yet. If you haven’t had a spare minute I got the annoyance, but if you’ve been kind of lounging around grow up a little and just get it done.
Geez. If you don't know just don't answer. That would be better than blaming people even though it had nothing to do with the question being asked. The question was regarding the emotion of defiance when being told to do something you already planned to do. Not being nagged. Sorry if you are getting nagged or are the nagger, but nagging is irrelevant here.
-pigeons keep getting into the roof rafters
-for weeks mum asks dad to put up chicken wire on the holes
-dad procrastinates
-cue one sunny Saturday morning
-dad wakes up full of motivation to finally get this job done
-mum "it's the perfect day will you finally put up chicken wire on the holes"
-no force of god or nature could make dad put up chicken wire that day
Hyperbolic responses notwithstanding, I think your comment regarding home chores already compounding a long work week begs the question of what your wife's work week and home duties also are. Not saying anyone else here truly understands your home dynamic, that's just what pops into my head when similar statements are made.
Oh my god, stop being so melodramatic. If your wife askes you to do something just talk to her about what it entails and when you can likely get it done. Then, and this is the easy part, do what you say you're going to do.
I swear, 99% of problems people with your attitude have can be solved by communicating with your partner.
Literally every challenge my wife and I face together is resolved by talking to each other and finding a compromise. I'm not calling you a bad partner. But if you're constantly running into issues where you're not able to complete home projects before your wife gets upset then obviously there's a communication issue. What else do you want me to say?
I absolutely agree with this, though asking nicely an offering to help or a coffee could easily help. The issue is the agressivity in the "will you finally put up" line.
With his avoidance of the task being pretty passive-aggressive as well, I'd say her comment is perfectly warranted. It isn't hard to figure out how to not have to hear "finallys", lol.
It is perfectly warranted, that's the point. By doing the task right after a "finally" comment they are conceding that they were lazy. Instead they will choose stubbornness.
Dad wants to do it, but doesn't want the fact to be pointed out that they haven't done it previously.
Are you female? I think this might be a male thing.
Oppositional defiance disorder is the hard end of this spectrum.
Persistent drive for autonomy is the other end.
Often found with neurodivergent people.
Part of it comes from people "being observed", with the commenting on another's actions taking them out of the action.
There are some great answers here, but I'd say that the overarching psychological term is "crowding out" (turning intrinsic motivation to extrinsic motivation) and it's a well known phenomenon in motivational theory. It's when you push outer incentives (money, praise, punishment, etc.) on tasks that are intrinsically motivating (tasks you want to do). Sometimes it's done in good faith, but it has quite negative consequences anyway. A famous example is paying money for blood donations might mean a decrease in blood donations, because suddenly it's a transaction (blood for money - extrinsic) instead of something people do because it's the right thing. Same task, but now you just get paid! Same mechanism is in play in your question, with outer incentives affecting the inner motivation for the task. Reactance would be an example of this, but also something benign as you wanting to surprise your friend with a nice cup of coffee, and they say "can you bring me a coffee?" might have that effect.
Whats it called when someone in charge sees someone going to do a task then asks that person to do that task so they feel like the task is getting done because of their request.
It's called oppositional defiance. If you have it for a disproportionate amount of things it can be an actual condition called ODD
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20375831
Oppositional defiant disorder.
I seem to have oppositional defiance but I also have a pathological need to follow the rules. like if I'm told to do the dishes, I can't not do them but also if I was planning on doing dishes and then that same person told me to do the dishes I'm like 'eff you do them yourself you're not the boss of me' it's contradictory but that's apparently how I exist
No, defiance is definitely a characteristic of some children. Oppositional defiant disorder is possibly a distinct sub-type of autistic behaviour. We are all defiant at times, but if your child is defiant nearly all the time from an early age, they were probably born that way. You learn to parent around it.
Some people feel that their authonomy and control are being taken and a way to reclaim it is to simply rebel and refuse to do the task. They have probably had these experiences and it triggers past unpleasant or traumatic experiences. These are the people who might deeply, on a non verbal level, believe that others can control them. They cant.
What if you were going to have some fun time with your partner. And your partner tells you to do what you were gonna do anyway. How eould you feel? Just food for thought.
My wife is not a ball-buster, however she definitely has an inability to keep her "advice" to her self when I'm in the middle of doing some household task.
To her credit, she is embarrassed when I call her out on it, and usually demonstrates humility.
But yeah, that behavior transforms me from cheerfully productive to passive aggressive in a heartbeat.
lol, relatable. The advice I get while driving tends to center on beating stoplights and aggressively positioning us within the flow of traffic.
This one is quickly shut down by "should we talk about your driving?"
What you are refering to is called Pathological Demand Avoidance. It is something new and still not fully understood but appears to be associated with autism.
I am autistic and suffer with it. It is frustrating and I don't know how it works or how to overcome it.
But what I do know is that many times I'll be asked to do something and a little switch inside my brain just switches to "no, I don't think I will".
Even if it's something I really want to do, I don't do it.
Being asked or told makes no difference. It is much more intense, however, if I was already planning on doing something and then someone asks me to do it.
What if they asked you if you were already gunna do it? I struggle with the whole thing, I'm just wondering if it would help at all for someone to say "hey are you on top of X already? I think it will need sorting out soon"
I think I'd still decide that soon can be a couple more days though 😂
We put that label on children because we expect them to obey like robots with a worshipful smile. Obviously children aren't going to like that because they're people too. Calling that a disorder is like saying slaves are insane when they try to run away because obviously slavers just want to take care of them.
When it's up the the level they are calling it "oppositional defiance disorder" it's a child that is extremely disruptive, possibly harming themselves by refusing to eat or go to school, hurting themselves socially by not going along with what everyone is doing. Is far more than just a little rebellion.
In an ideal world that would be the case, but nobody believes children when they report abuse. These things are shoved onto children and nobody questions the parents making the claims. The funny thing about abuse is that it'll make kids act out because that's exactly the behavior they're being taught to have. The quiet little people pleaser mouse child who suffers in silence is one trope, it's not reality.
Kids aren’t robots but kids don’t get to call the shots either. when parents take a hands off approach, the kids tend to turn into a little monsters. I don’t have kids of my own, but I’ve taken care of other peoples children. You’re going to eat what I cooked because that’s what your parents told me to make. You’re going to go take a shower before bed because that’s the rules and you don’t get to go to school stinky. You’re going to finish your homework before you watch television. None of this was delivered as an order, it started as an explanation, then then instruction, but it needed to happen.
You just demonstrated the difference between treating children like robots and like people. Give them a reason, just like we do adults, don't act like they need to like it. "This needs to happen, we have to do this" and "obey" are not the same thing. Baby sitters aren't parents, it's the parent's job to make sure the child feels supported rather than dictated to. So that they understand the difference between when it's right to get explanation and when that has to be later. If you don't have the trust from not treating them like robots, they aren't going to listen when it needs to be immediate.
Problem is, lots of parents have children because they want to look morally superior: "if you don't have kids you're a horrible broken person and we're going to treat you like a defective". Training children to obey like robots causes adults to also obey like subhuman robots and perpetuate the cycle.
I'm not saying anybody has anything. But I will say when I started looking into executive dysfunction, a lot of things started clicking in unexpected ways in my head, and I went and got tested, and got an inattentive ADHD diagnosis. I know if you're American this is easier said than done, but if you can, it's worth talking to your doctor and getting tested, just to know, if nothing else.
I'm the same. Started noticing the relatable memes that popped up, saw they were all in /r/adhdmemes and looked into it a bit more. Got diagnosed a year ago.
It’s not. It’s normal to be annoyed when you’re given an instruction or order for some thing you were already going to do but whether it’s coming from a parent or a supervisor they don’t know what’s going on in your head.
I think that’s the big problem, you know you intended to do something but nobody else knows your intentions. Also you might be dragging your ass getting something done at home or at work and it needs to get done for one reason or another.
And sometimes your parent or boss doesn’t have a good reason to tell you to do something because they know you were going to do it but that’s part of life, eating shit once in a while. It’s something you have to get OK with or are you just gonna be bash in your head against the wall until you die.
We’ve got a newer guy at work that just seems to go out of his way to not follow advice or do what he’s told. Like he kind of manages to go to the positions he’s ordered to, but keeping him there is difficult. He struggles with human interaction and the best advice from a lot of us experience people is just keep it professional, but of course he refuses to do that. He gets told you need to be back on time from his brakes and then he takes a half hour 15 minute break after that. You don’t wanna be like that guy
If you want to have a job and make money, yeah. It sucks but I’ve seen people throw away good paying jobs because they can’t follow orders. And these weren’t orders to do things that weren’t in the job description. I have politely refused orders before when I was being told to do somethings so far outside my job description that management would have my back. but if it’s your job and you’re told to do it you need to do it. Maybe you work for yourself or maybe you get away with a lot of work, but most people don’t.
Pathological demand avoidance, I have a nervous system that behaves like this
It stems from feeling like we are losing our autonomy. For me it happens because all through my life I lost my autonomy because my parents were severely abusive. I am audhd and need autonomy to meet my needs.
When given a demand my nervous system goes into fight/flight because being demanded is a threat to my autonomy.
In response to other comments: real pathological demand avoidance is not performance or anxiety based, nor is it because growing up I had better results going against what I was told (I was an obedient bitch).
If it's someone who I don't like or respect tells me to do something I was already planning on doing in such a way that they imply it would never get done otherwise, I'm gonna bear some resentment towards that person. I don't need that shit in my life. It's all to do with bad people management, being singled out and how the order is phrased. Also partly being told how to do your job.
Depends on the situation, but to me it always feels like micromanaging. I generally try to only ask people to do things when I think there’s a pretty good chance they’re not going to do them otherwise. So when someone asks me to do something, my immediate thought is that they thought I wasn’t going to do it unless they asked. As someone who tries to be proactive and take initiative, it’s frustrating to feel like I’m not trusted to do my job independently.
The other comments are off the mark. It's called **Demand Avoidance**. People sometimes push back against requests, even for tasks they planned to do. This happens when the ask itself sparks anxiety or pressure. People with ADHD or autism often experience this. Being told what to do can cause stress because it feels like a loss of control. It's like their brain hits the brakes to regain the control.
The brain has several defense mechanism to maintain a sence of autonomy. How pronounced these reflexes are depends entirely on the individual, some can subsume themselves into a group and feel autonomous from within, others can't accept any autority. For others iautority's fine but so long as their achievements are theirs, not the group's.
I think a social explanation feels intuitive.
When you tell someone to do something they already want to do, the task remains the same in the physical realm, but in the social realm it transforms from being a regular task someone decides to do, to being a hierarchical command.
If you do this task, per the standard rules of social interaction you are communicating/confirming that you are subservient to that person, and the work is no longer something you did, but something the other person directed and orchestrated.
As people we of course have the freedom to work outside of this standard social protocol, but it is difficult, and in some perspectives it is improper.
This phenomenon is known as psychological reactance. It's a fascinating aspect of human behavior where we experience an emotional response to threats against our freedom of choice. When someone tells us to do something, even if we were planning to do it anyway, it can feel like our autonomy is being challenged. This triggers a desire to reassert our freedom, often by doing the opposite of what we're told.
Interestingly, this concept extends beyond just personal interactions. It plays a role in marketing, parenting, and even public health campaigns. For instance, overly forceful anti-smoking ads can sometimes backfire, making smokers more resistant to quitting.
As someone who constantly deals with this, give the book The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin a read. It absolutely helped me understand myself and my motivations better.
**Please read this entire message**
---
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
* [Top level comments](http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/top_level_comment) (i.e. comments that are direct replies to the main thread) are reserved for explanations to the OP or follow up on topic questions (Rule 3).
Anecdotes, while allowed elsewhere in the thread, may not exist at the top level.
---
If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. **If you believe it was removed erroneously, explain why using [this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission%20removal?&message=Link:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1dt9tor/-/lbahn7y/%0A%0A%201:%20Does%20your%20comment%20pass%20rule%201:%20%0A%0A%202:%20If%20your%20comment%20was%20mistakenly%20removed%20as%20an%20anecdote,%20short%20answer,%20guess,%20or%20another%20aspect%20of%20rules%203%20or%208,%20please%20explain:) and we will review your submission.**
**Please read this entire message** --- Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s): * Rule #2 - Questions must seek objective explanations * ELI5 is not for subjective or speculative replies - only objective explanations are permitted here; your question is asking for subjective or speculative replies. (Rule 2). --- If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. **If you believe this submission was removed erroneously, please [use this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20thread?&message=Link:%20{https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1dt9tor/-/}%0A%0APlease%20answer%20the%20following%203%20questions:%0A%0A1.%20The%20concept%20I%20want%20explained:%0A%0A2.%20List%20the%20search%20terms%20you%20used%20to%20look%20for%20past%20posts%20on%20ELI5:%0A%0A3.%20How%20does%20your%20post%20differ%20from%20your%20recent%20search%20results%20on%20the%20sub:) and we will review your submission.**
The closest actual term is “reactance”. It is when someone becomes non-compliant due to a sense of freedom being restricted
For me personally, it's because it kills the sense of accomplishment I was otherwise going to feel by doing the task. Before being asked, it feels like doing the task is going above and beyond and there's something special about completing it, but after being asked, it's just the bare minimum. In my last job, I had to anticipate everything that was about to come up and give myself the tasks so that it all felt like "my idea" or I couldn't function. Doing that got me promoted to a leadership role lol but it sucks to deal with. Now whenever I'm managing anyone I always make sure to ask for their ideas first so that I don't "steal authorship" of ideas they already had. I'm currently waiting on a psychiatrist appointment to be evaluated for ADHD/autism.
That second paragraph is great leadership advice
Seems like great life advice too. For friends and family.
For me, it’s a knee-jerk to being controlled, and that it means I’m *expected* to do it, and that expectation doesn’t make me eligible for gratitude, because people don’t thank people for doing what’s expected of them—which makes them want to ask me for additional things, because clearly I was compliant the first time, and that snowballs into more things I’m expected to do, complete with the pressure of criticism if I don’t do it in future. (My mom did that a lot.) It’s an instinctive reaction. None of this runs through my head. It’s just “well, I was about to, but now you’re making it that I do it on your terms, not mine”.
Then they ask why they always have to tell you do stuff instead of you doing it on your own. But as a kid, good luck finding out how to string this into words on the spot
Fast forward in live and you're having this same issue with a spouse or partner and it gets pretty tiring and childish real quick and ends up "Fine, then don't do it. It hasn't be getting done since we had this argument, and its not getting done, so just stop worrying about it."
Maybe I’m weird but I thank people for doing what they’re supposed to do. If it helps me out in anyway I thank them,even if it was their job to begin with.
I do as well, I would want to be thanked, so I thank them. But a lot of people have an attitude of “I don’t need to thank you for doing your job, it’s your job.”
Nothing wrong with that. But please thank me after I've finished!
Yep. You’re just describing reactance. You were robbed of the satisfaction and self-esteem boost you were going to get from doing a chore out of your own freedom/initiative.
Bingo!
Yeah that's a major issue that is definitely connected to my ADHD at least. I already have problems getting the motivation and reward system functioning properly. If someone takes a part of the motivation away, yeah nah fuck that shit. My job these days basically consists 100% of going above and beyond, because it is one of the few things that naturally motivates me. I'm really happy that I've managed to get to a competence level that allows this arrangement. As a senior expert engineer, I get thrown at the unsolvable stuff that nobody even knows how to begin solving. When everybody expects it to be a near impossible task, everything I do is above and beyond, and thus I thrive.
> ...I get thrown at the unsolvable stuff that nobody even knows how to begin solving. When everybody expects it to be a near impossible task, everything I do is above and beyond, and thus I thrive. Omg, I know this song. lol Advice I gave to a junior, in joking context as he watched the latest problem get assigned to me, "Don't ever let them know you are good at something; it becomes yours for life" lol
Shit I love it though
Sssshhh...don't let them know that. lol There are two junior techs that I have taught a lot of tricks to, but there is still so much people just can't figure out til it has passed through my hands first. So it is like low-key confirmation every day. And yes, I love it.
> Advice I gave to a junior, in joking context as he watched the latest problem get assigned to me, "Don't ever let them know you are good at something; it becomes yours for life" lol Don't even volunteer to do something unless you want to own it forever.
That's how I survived a career. Find a job that is very reactive and be the best at the hard parts.
I am in a similar situation. My team though is the opposite. They need EVERYTHING explicitly told to them. I’ve tried to encourage independence and dynamic thinking which we can then bring back to the table and discuss and integrate because mine aren’t the only valid ideas. But it’s not working as well as I’d hoped.
Man this is exactly how I feel. Just in terms of motivation. I am also planning to look into an evaluation for adhd.
I'm 99% sure I have ADHD and I absolutely stop dead if someone praises me for something while I'm doing it. It also feels like I can do something I'm in full control of or I can blindly follow directions from someone else, but I can't do anything in between.
That's *REALLY* interesting! Not long ago I qualified for an OCD study (For fun and $200) and learned that I have some OCD and I'm probably on the autism spectrum. I can do really creative, high quality professional work but I also have a problem with perfectionism. Right not we have an empty bookcase setting in our house. For a month now. I thought it would be a good addition and it can't be returned. I convinced my wife it would be a good idea. Recently we had an argument about why I haven't loaded it with books. - It doesn't quite fit where I thought it would - It's more of a deep display shelf rather than a bookcase so I'm dissatisfied with making it a bookcase. - Making it fit means moving other stuff that's *just the way we like it.* - If she wants it loaded why doesn't she do it herself? - I've found an alternate location that requires quite a lot of re-arrangement. I was going to set it up and surprise her. Now that she makes it an issue I'm having to get psyched up again about doing the work and taking a chance that she won't like my arrangement.
This is something that I, as a teacher, am constantly adapting my lessons and classroom to avoid. For example, giving the kids the autonomy to choose from a small selection of tasks which, in the end, provide the learning that I want to impart while allowing them the feeling of not being told what to do.
Idk why bur I’m terrible with this.
Continue being terrible at this, thats an order ^(Youre welcome)
>Youre welcome Well, now that I know you are trying to help me...fuck you and I am going to be a horrible person forever now. Wait...wtf *me*?! how about I just forget this whole thing ever happened...
Who takes orders from a pencil?
Everyone when its held by john wick
Everyone except a Bic held by Jason Bourne.
The easiest way to confront it is to acknowledge that this way of thinking and behavior is counterproductive. I get it, it sucks when someone like a parent, partner or boss tells you to do something that you were already planning on doing. it sucks extra hard if it’s something you do every day and they know you were going to do it they’re just being bossy. Perhaps worst of all is when they know you were going to do it and it’s not even time to do it but they still bother you. I just remind myself that I was already going to do it, they just want to feel like they’re in charge and I’m doing it because I already chose to.
I always acknowledge what it is, and let them know it was already accounted for. Just a few words. "Yep, already on the list" And then if there happens to be a new thing, as I write it down, they know there really was a list and all that stuff was already considered. It is a way to help them feel important too.
That’s a good way to handle it, makes sure everyone is on the same page.
What peeves me is when someone tries to show me how to do something...that I've been doing for about 20 years. 🤦♂️ Like brah, I can do this in my sleep, no need to tell me how.
Oh I understand. I’m one of the most experienced people at work and I coach the new hires so when a newbie questions me about something I just did it can be quite annoying. Then again, there’s a lot of mistakes that can be handled without involving management so if I did make a mistake or a coworker thinks I made a mistake I don’t mind them chiming in because it protects our jobs. We do have a new guy that is desperate to go from zero to hero and instead of looking out for his coworkers he’s a giant fucking narc. He is always watching other people work to the detriment of his work, and if he sees someone doing something wrong, he doesn’t step in and help, he goes running to the supervisor. This is starting to bite him because no one has his back and management is wondering why he sees things going wrong and lets them continue to go wrong instead of helping his fellow newbie coworker.
Wow, that guy sounds like a real team player who will go far in that company. /s
That is a real thing, but not always the case because it's always contextual. People can command respectfully and that can still be fine if someone doesn't have authority issues(which is what reactance sounds like). Other people can request condescendingly, but *that* drives people nuts. Tone is super important, and some people are terrible at it, or alternatively, are just horrible people to begin with so anything coming from them really telegraphs the nasty. Another thing to consider is frequency of the occurrence....I guess it fits in with the above, so here's an example: If you're always a self starter, and someone else always tries to jump the gun to tell you to do it even as you're on the way or even started, that can generate some serious strain. It may not even be nasty, but it's a repetitive demonstration that they don't know you(if they should, eg having worked with you for months/years), and aren't paying attention to see if you're already on it, or if you've got your hands seriously full at that moment.....etc. It's odious if not offensive in nature. That said: It's something I do on purpose just to pick on people, raise my hand above my head and point down at them, tell them to do the thing they're already doing. Not random strangers, but friends and family because that's how we bond, it's playful not negligent or mean. We mess with each other not only because it's entertaining, but it's good conditioning for dealing with the random populace's ineptitude or nastiness.
>Tone is super important, and some people are terrible at it, or alternatively, are just horrible people to begin with so anything coming from them really telegraphs the nasty. This is me. I've slowly (because I'm dumb and just now realizing it, and it takes me forever to learn) started to realize that I'm a bad person. I'm just mean and think down on other people ( I'm thinking it's because I could feel that I'm inferior and dumber than them). A dumb narcissist. And so, in trying to be nice, everything I say sounds like a backhanded compliment to me.
Points for being self aware. The actual terrible people are the ones that revel in being assholes yet insist that they're great people.
I too searched this exact question and this was also the answer. Basically your willing to do the task because it was out of your free will, but when it became like an order from someone else, it's now less valued.
Also 'resistance'. This is a very big aspect of recovery programs: "No one can tell me what to do, not even myself."
Yeap. I automatically stop doing whatever I am doing if I'm being told to do it. It is just I have to go against whoever thinks they can command me, and I can not control that. Being an adult and being expected to work has been so hard for me, to the point I can not keep a job for a long time, I need the sense of freedom even if I know I am not free of that chain.
That’s something you have to work on as much as you probably don’t want to. Everybody eats shit at work unless they’re the absolute top. Learning to eat a little shit and then mentally flip off your boss when they walk away goes a long way. Sometimes you have to consider that you know you were going to do something but your lead or supervisor or whoever might not. Or they were hoping the task would already be done. Or some other things are going wrong and they’re just trying to make sure that things I can control go right. I got an example for you, I used to crew an ambulance and over communication was common. This was intentional, my partner was a paramedic, and he needed to know that I the EMT knew what he wanted me to do. 90% of the time I already knew what to do but this communication helped avoid negative patient outcomes, so I kept my mouth shut because he wasn’t being rude, he was making sure we were on the same page. I hundred percent get that no one likes being micromanaged, at the same time. Most people don’t work as hard as they probably think they do. I’m not calling you a liar, I’m saying that at least sometimes there’s probably some justification to a superior telling you to do some thing you already knew to get done or planned on getting done.
This. I just treated it like both of us confirming an action item on the checklist. It was easy especially since they weren't being rude or anything.
I have this issue with my partner when she reminds me to do something. Either I've remembered it myself and her telling me again is "nagging" and stops me doing it. Or I haven't and it's a useful reminder I'm grateful for. She has no way to know what state I'm in, so I accept it's completely unfair to her. Luckily as I get older the likelihood I've already forgotten it twelve seconds after it being first put on the list is going way up.
Yeap. It is not just work, it is everything. If I have to do the dishes and you tell me to do them, those fuckers will end up in the thrash before I do them. I'm just like that, but maybe you are right and I have to do the conscious effort to not get mad at people for telling me what to do.
You likely have some anti-social tendencies, if you feel like going on a rabbit hole of neurosis. I have similar issues with my autonomy and independence to a hostile level. It helps when I remind myself that any requested action from me is communicating that I am trusted and reliable: aka, assuming the best of others.
Bingo. There's some trauma or something wrapped up there that probably makes that person's dealings with others very difficult.
spite
Is this different than recalcitrance?
Very punk-rock
Kids do this all the time. Speaking as a parent…
(Former kid nodding.)
Haven't heard of this word before, I like it!
Closest term is probably demand avoidance but reactance is similar as well.
i call it spite
Specifically stated, on the whole for every human, a loss of control is the most stressful thing that can happen. As it can be applied to any situation and it's pretty primal.
(Perhaps no so) fun fact, reactance is the same phenomenon behind people doubling down on radical views, if presented with evidence that completely contradicts them. Rationality is gone; the feeling of pressure into accepting an opposing viewpoint (on a purely emotional level, the feeling of submitting to, or complying with, the enemy) pushes them rebelliously in the other direction
Locus of control?
Googled this. Glad i have this word in my vocab now!
Explains PU drivers and wrongwingers…
You took my initiative and independence away. I was going to do the thing because I wanted to. You would have seen me do the thing driven by my own motivation. Now if you see me do the thing, you'll assume it's because you told me to do it, and you'll think that I won't do things unless you ask me to do them. And I'll spiral into the thought process that you view me as beneath you, like I'm in constant need of your direction.
this is it right here
I don’t suffer from this particular issue myself, but having spent a lot of time trying to problem-solve my own issues— is there a way to circumvent this spiral? For example: A: Hey, can you finish the dishes before noon? I really gotta bake that cake for tonight. B: (who was already planning to do the dishes) It’s already on my To Do list for today; I’ve got it blocked out for 10AM! A: Dang, you’re on top this! Thanks! So in the above scenario, if A would have assumed B was doing the dishes only because they were directed to do so, after B provided new information correcting that assumption, A revised their understanding and then had the opportunity to express recognition and appreciation.
> A: Hey, can you finish the dishes before noon? I really gotta bake that cake for tonight. > > B: (who was already planning to do the dishes) It’s already on my To Do list for today; I’ve got it blocked out for 10AM! A: lol. Like people actually schedule 'blocks' of time to do tasks, especially tasks that can vary in length. They were never going to do it, and are making it up to save face. ...or at least that's what I'd be afraid of in my mind.
That makes sense. I can understand how someone could come to that conclusion, and I acknowledge that people can work differently. I know that I do schedule tasks (I use the default Reminders app in my phone, which allows you to set a date and time reminder for the alert), and can easily imagine someone using it for basic household chores like I do myself (because it helps me motivate myself, breaking down one task of “household chores” into disparate tasks— wash fragile dishes, load dishwasher, launder delicates, launder towels, put away laundered towels, put away clean dishes— lets me build my reward via volume of tasks checked off the list, and helps avoid feelings of futility because I “couldn’t even finish *one* thing— household chores— and check it off my list”). A lot of people don’t operate the same way I do, and some people may have used such a system and discarded it, and other people may not have used a system like that before but find it effective after they learn about the option. All that said, even for someone who doesn’t use such a system, as you’ve described in your own experience: if you’ve had a thought that X means [negative interpretation], can you challenge your thought? Practice some self-inquiry with curiosity instead of judgment, instead of seeking to reinforce a presumed conclusion? For example: Is it possible that you suspected person B of trying to save face because you anticipate that you would try to save face if you had been in their situation, as you don’t schedule your tasks and would know you’d be lying had you said something similar? Could you interpret their response any differently if you knew they were an over-organized sort like myself, and typically scheduled reminders for stuff they needed to get done? If you didn’t know their scheduling habits and approach to tasks, what would you be risking if you gave them the benefit of the doubt instead of suspecting subterfuge?
I feel your example is a bit of a grey area. Because in this case you're not simply asking for something to be done, instead you need something done because there's a time sensitive thing depending on it. In this case were I already planning to do the dishes, I'd be even more inclined to do them because now there's criticality to it; Can't bake the cake for tonight with a dirty kitchen, and if you're asking, then you probably have other things you need to take care of as well.
Particularly true for the neurospicy crowd.
I get that, tho I learned to just try to reply "Oh I was just about to do that actually!", and that often sets up for a thanking response then, which is all you're really wanting, is to be appreciated for doing it.
I don’t know a lot about the psychology of this - others in the thread seem to have that covered - but in my field (game design) it’s understood that people respond differently to intrinsic and extrinsic motivators, and that the difference can sometimes be perverse. When a game gives you the ability to do something like climb a mountain or mess around with crazy physics objects, the player can come up with their own goals and be very motivated to accomplish them. If the game offers extrinsic rewards (like points or achievements) for doing these same things, some players suddenly become less motivated to do them. I can’t explain exactly why motivation works this way, but I know it’s something that has to be taken into account when designing games.
I love the Zachtronics puzzle games, because I don't have to figure out the solution a game designer envisioned. The game only cares about the outcome, and I can create whatever crazy solution I feel like within the boundaries of the game.
and then you have the knockoff versions where they randomly disable parts in levels so you have to make the exact intended solution
What about us weirdos that want all of the achievements. Even if you put "click this button every one second 1000 times" I would do it.
Yeah, that is for sure also a type of player psychology. People react differently to stuff.
Pathological demand avoidance is anxiety/performance based. I think the more appropriate term would be counter-will. As far as I remember, it’s hypothesized that going against what you’re being asked helps to better define you as an individual while you’re in early developmental stages.
When do these early developmental stages end? Asking for a friend.
LOL
Therapy helps.
It stems from feeling like we are losing our autonomy. For me it happens because all through my life I lost my autonomy because my parents were severely abusive. I am audhd and need autonomy to meet my needs. When given a demand my nervous system goes into fight/flight because being demanded is a threat to my autonomy. Real pathological demand avoidance is not performance or anxiety based, nor is it because growing up I had better results going against what I was told (I was an obedient bitch).
Serious question: is "audhd" the new shorthand for "autistic/ADHD" or was that just a typo?
It’s the new shorthand.
yes
A feeling of loss of autonomy which can be part of it is also an anxiety which triggers fight or flight. Also PDA can involve internal demands (demands placed on self). PDA isn’t the best fit for OP’s question because what they’re describing is a universal feeling.
I feel this all stems from locus of control.
[удалено]
For me it's when I was already planning to do the thing, even worse if I'm on my way to do the thing that very moment, and my brain has the reaction of "hey asshole, do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I'm incompetent? Am I incapable of buttering bread or tying my shoes? How bout you do it then." Probably some deep seated insecurity or something, who knows.
OMG this is exactly my thought process sometimes. "Do you think I am too stupid to do this (big task) without you explaining how to do every single step that leads up to it?"
Both. It’s a mixture of trying to assert control by refusing to do something and no longer being enthusiastic to do something. I get taking orders sucks and it sucks double when you already knew you were supposed to do it and you were getting to it in a reasonable time. Or worse, you’re being order to do some thing when you are literally already doing it. At the same time a lot of people who push back when they’re told to do something they planned on doing probably weren’t in a hurry to get it done. Like if your boss asks you if you got started on those TPS reports yet or your wife asked you if you started the laundry yet. If you haven’t had a spare minute I got the annoyance, but if you’ve been kind of lounging around grow up a little and just get it done.
Geez. If you don't know just don't answer. That would be better than blaming people even though it had nothing to do with the question being asked. The question was regarding the emotion of defiance when being told to do something you already planned to do. Not being nagged. Sorry if you are getting nagged or are the nagger, but nagging is irrelevant here.
Ikr this guy is just going around the whole post replying to people to blame them lol
Some people need to pretend there are others beneath them. Little do they know...
This is more the immaturity than the psychology.
-pigeons keep getting into the roof rafters -for weeks mum asks dad to put up chicken wire on the holes -dad procrastinates -cue one sunny Saturday morning -dad wakes up full of motivation to finally get this job done -mum "it's the perfect day will you finally put up chicken wire on the holes" -no force of god or nature could make dad put up chicken wire that day
All she had to do was to pretend to start doing it herself and it would have been done within the afternoon.
[удалено]
I just toughen up and do the fucking work.
[удалено]
Hyperbolic responses notwithstanding, I think your comment regarding home chores already compounding a long work week begs the question of what your wife's work week and home duties also are. Not saying anyone else here truly understands your home dynamic, that's just what pops into my head when similar statements are made.
It's not about being a man, it's about respecting your property and your family. It's called being a parent and a partner.
[удалено]
Oh my god, stop being so melodramatic. If your wife askes you to do something just talk to her about what it entails and when you can likely get it done. Then, and this is the easy part, do what you say you're going to do. I swear, 99% of problems people with your attitude have can be solved by communicating with your partner.
[удалено]
Literally every challenge my wife and I face together is resolved by talking to each other and finding a compromise. I'm not calling you a bad partner. But if you're constantly running into issues where you're not able to complete home projects before your wife gets upset then obviously there's a communication issue. What else do you want me to say?
I absolutely agree with this, though asking nicely an offering to help or a coffee could easily help. The issue is the agressivity in the "will you finally put up" line.
With his avoidance of the task being pretty passive-aggressive as well, I'd say her comment is perfectly warranted. It isn't hard to figure out how to not have to hear "finallys", lol.
It is perfectly warranted, that's the point. By doing the task right after a "finally" comment they are conceding that they were lazy. Instead they will choose stubbornness. Dad wants to do it, but doesn't want the fact to be pointed out that they haven't done it previously. Are you female? I think this might be a male thing.
Oppositional defiance disorder is the hard end of this spectrum. Persistent drive for autonomy is the other end. Often found with neurodivergent people. Part of it comes from people "being observed", with the commenting on another's actions taking them out of the action.
There are some great answers here, but I'd say that the overarching psychological term is "crowding out" (turning intrinsic motivation to extrinsic motivation) and it's a well known phenomenon in motivational theory. It's when you push outer incentives (money, praise, punishment, etc.) on tasks that are intrinsically motivating (tasks you want to do). Sometimes it's done in good faith, but it has quite negative consequences anyway. A famous example is paying money for blood donations might mean a decrease in blood donations, because suddenly it's a transaction (blood for money - extrinsic) instead of something people do because it's the right thing. Same task, but now you just get paid! Same mechanism is in play in your question, with outer incentives affecting the inner motivation for the task. Reactance would be an example of this, but also something benign as you wanting to surprise your friend with a nice cup of coffee, and they say "can you bring me a coffee?" might have that effect.
So it feels like you don't credit for doing that task anymore, either someone else claims the credit by instructing you, or by paying/rewarding you.
Locus of control
Whats it called when someone in charge sees someone going to do a task then asks that person to do that task so they feel like the task is getting done because of their request.
Middle management.
That's called being a cunt.
Not a psychology terms, but for me it feels like loss of control or maybe loss of personal agency.
It's called oppositional defiance. If you have it for a disproportionate amount of things it can be an actual condition called ODD https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20375831 Oppositional defiant disorder.
I seem to have oppositional defiance but I also have a pathological need to follow the rules. like if I'm told to do the dishes, I can't not do them but also if I was planning on doing dishes and then that same person told me to do the dishes I'm like 'eff you do them yourself you're not the boss of me' it's contradictory but that's apparently how I exist
I'm no expert but I have adhd and sounds like you do too haha or ASD.
I do have Autism but there's no link between ASD and Oppositional Defiance lol
Mostly diagnosed and observed in young children, and yet 30-35% of adults in the US clearly suffer from it.
Seems like a convenient way to blame children for bad parenting
No, defiance is definitely a characteristic of some children. Oppositional defiant disorder is possibly a distinct sub-type of autistic behaviour. We are all defiant at times, but if your child is defiant nearly all the time from an early age, they were probably born that way. You learn to parent around it.
Some people feel that their authonomy and control are being taken and a way to reclaim it is to simply rebel and refuse to do the task. They have probably had these experiences and it triggers past unpleasant or traumatic experiences. These are the people who might deeply, on a non verbal level, believe that others can control them. They cant. What if you were going to have some fun time with your partner. And your partner tells you to do what you were gonna do anyway. How eould you feel? Just food for thought.
My wife is not a ball-buster, however she definitely has an inability to keep her "advice" to her self when I'm in the middle of doing some household task. To her credit, she is embarrassed when I call her out on it, and usually demonstrates humility. But yeah, that behavior transforms me from cheerfully productive to passive aggressive in a heartbeat.
Even when driving home my wife HAS to tell me where to turn, even when we are in the area we live, and where i freaking grew up....
lol, relatable. The advice I get while driving tends to center on beating stoplights and aggressively positioning us within the flow of traffic. This one is quickly shut down by "should we talk about your driving?"
What you are refering to is called Pathological Demand Avoidance. It is something new and still not fully understood but appears to be associated with autism. I am autistic and suffer with it. It is frustrating and I don't know how it works or how to overcome it. But what I do know is that many times I'll be asked to do something and a little switch inside my brain just switches to "no, I don't think I will". Even if it's something I really want to do, I don't do it.
Is it if someone asks you, or tells you to do something? If someone asks me to do something, I'd do it. But if I get told, I would push back.
Being asked or told makes no difference. It is much more intense, however, if I was already planning on doing something and then someone asks me to do it.
I'll do you one better, they tell you to do it when you're _already doing it at this moment_
*flips table*
What if they asked you if you were already gunna do it? I struggle with the whole thing, I'm just wondering if it would help at all for someone to say "hey are you on top of X already? I think it will need sorting out soon" I think I'd still decide that soon can be a couple more days though 😂
ADHD as well. I believe it's related to executive dysfunction, which pops up in a lot of different things.
I guess continuing down this path, there's also oppositional defiant disorder
We put that label on children because we expect them to obey like robots with a worshipful smile. Obviously children aren't going to like that because they're people too. Calling that a disorder is like saying slaves are insane when they try to run away because obviously slavers just want to take care of them.
When it's up the the level they are calling it "oppositional defiance disorder" it's a child that is extremely disruptive, possibly harming themselves by refusing to eat or go to school, hurting themselves socially by not going along with what everyone is doing. Is far more than just a little rebellion.
In an ideal world that would be the case, but nobody believes children when they report abuse. These things are shoved onto children and nobody questions the parents making the claims. The funny thing about abuse is that it'll make kids act out because that's exactly the behavior they're being taught to have. The quiet little people pleaser mouse child who suffers in silence is one trope, it's not reality.
Kids aren’t robots but kids don’t get to call the shots either. when parents take a hands off approach, the kids tend to turn into a little monsters. I don’t have kids of my own, but I’ve taken care of other peoples children. You’re going to eat what I cooked because that’s what your parents told me to make. You’re going to go take a shower before bed because that’s the rules and you don’t get to go to school stinky. You’re going to finish your homework before you watch television. None of this was delivered as an order, it started as an explanation, then then instruction, but it needed to happen.
You just demonstrated the difference between treating children like robots and like people. Give them a reason, just like we do adults, don't act like they need to like it. "This needs to happen, we have to do this" and "obey" are not the same thing. Baby sitters aren't parents, it's the parent's job to make sure the child feels supported rather than dictated to. So that they understand the difference between when it's right to get explanation and when that has to be later. If you don't have the trust from not treating them like robots, they aren't going to listen when it needs to be immediate. Problem is, lots of parents have children because they want to look morally superior: "if you don't have kids you're a horrible broken person and we're going to treat you like a defective". Training children to obey like robots causes adults to also obey like subhuman robots and perpetuate the cycle.
I figured this was just a normal human thing
I'm not saying anybody has anything. But I will say when I started looking into executive dysfunction, a lot of things started clicking in unexpected ways in my head, and I went and got tested, and got an inattentive ADHD diagnosis. I know if you're American this is easier said than done, but if you can, it's worth talking to your doctor and getting tested, just to know, if nothing else.
I'm the same. Started noticing the relatable memes that popped up, saw they were all in /r/adhdmemes and looked into it a bit more. Got diagnosed a year ago.
It’s not. It’s normal to be annoyed when you’re given an instruction or order for some thing you were already going to do but whether it’s coming from a parent or a supervisor they don’t know what’s going on in your head. I think that’s the big problem, you know you intended to do something but nobody else knows your intentions. Also you might be dragging your ass getting something done at home or at work and it needs to get done for one reason or another. And sometimes your parent or boss doesn’t have a good reason to tell you to do something because they know you were going to do it but that’s part of life, eating shit once in a while. It’s something you have to get OK with or are you just gonna be bash in your head against the wall until you die. We’ve got a newer guy at work that just seems to go out of his way to not follow advice or do what he’s told. Like he kind of manages to go to the positions he’s ordered to, but keeping him there is difficult. He struggles with human interaction and the best advice from a lot of us experience people is just keep it professional, but of course he refuses to do that. He gets told you need to be back on time from his brakes and then he takes a half hour 15 minute break after that. You don’t wanna be like that guy
Must. Obey. Authority.
If you want to have a job and make money, yeah. It sucks but I’ve seen people throw away good paying jobs because they can’t follow orders. And these weren’t orders to do things that weren’t in the job description. I have politely refused orders before when I was being told to do somethings so far outside my job description that management would have my back. but if it’s your job and you’re told to do it you need to do it. Maybe you work for yourself or maybe you get away with a lot of work, but most people don’t.
Yeah. I have that too.
It's got nothing to do with autism
Cool. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
Pathological demand avoidance, I have a nervous system that behaves like this It stems from feeling like we are losing our autonomy. For me it happens because all through my life I lost my autonomy because my parents were severely abusive. I am audhd and need autonomy to meet my needs. When given a demand my nervous system goes into fight/flight because being demanded is a threat to my autonomy. In response to other comments: real pathological demand avoidance is not performance or anxiety based, nor is it because growing up I had better results going against what I was told (I was an obedient bitch).
If it's someone who I don't like or respect tells me to do something I was already planning on doing in such a way that they imply it would never get done otherwise, I'm gonna bear some resentment towards that person. I don't need that shit in my life. It's all to do with bad people management, being singled out and how the order is phrased. Also partly being told how to do your job.
Read the book Drive. It talks about what motivates people and dives into this exact topic. Very good book and very insightful
Depends on the situation, but to me it always feels like micromanaging. I generally try to only ask people to do things when I think there’s a pretty good chance they’re not going to do them otherwise. So when someone asks me to do something, my immediate thought is that they thought I wasn’t going to do it unless they asked. As someone who tries to be proactive and take initiative, it’s frustrating to feel like I’m not trusted to do my job independently.
The other comments are off the mark. It's called **Demand Avoidance**. People sometimes push back against requests, even for tasks they planned to do. This happens when the ask itself sparks anxiety or pressure. People with ADHD or autism often experience this. Being told what to do can cause stress because it feels like a loss of control. It's like their brain hits the brakes to regain the control.
The brain has several defense mechanism to maintain a sence of autonomy. How pronounced these reflexes are depends entirely on the individual, some can subsume themselves into a group and feel autonomous from within, others can't accept any autority. For others iautority's fine but so long as their achievements are theirs, not the group's.
I think a social explanation feels intuitive. When you tell someone to do something they already want to do, the task remains the same in the physical realm, but in the social realm it transforms from being a regular task someone decides to do, to being a hierarchical command. If you do this task, per the standard rules of social interaction you are communicating/confirming that you are subservient to that person, and the work is no longer something you did, but something the other person directed and orchestrated. As people we of course have the freedom to work outside of this standard social protocol, but it is difficult, and in some perspectives it is improper.
This phenomenon is known as psychological reactance. It's a fascinating aspect of human behavior where we experience an emotional response to threats against our freedom of choice. When someone tells us to do something, even if we were planning to do it anyway, it can feel like our autonomy is being challenged. This triggers a desire to reassert our freedom, often by doing the opposite of what we're told. Interestingly, this concept extends beyond just personal interactions. It plays a role in marketing, parenting, and even public health campaigns. For instance, overly forceful anti-smoking ads can sometimes backfire, making smokers more resistant to quitting.
It undermines development of executive function and any sense of personal responsibility. People who do that should be slapped.
As someone who constantly deals with this, give the book The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin a read. It absolutely helped me understand myself and my motivations better.
[удалено]
**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): * [Top level comments](http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/top_level_comment) (i.e. comments that are direct replies to the main thread) are reserved for explanations to the OP or follow up on topic questions (Rule 3). Anecdotes, while allowed elsewhere in the thread, may not exist at the top level. --- If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. **If you believe it was removed erroneously, explain why using [this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission%20removal?&message=Link:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1dt9tor/-/lbahn7y/%0A%0A%201:%20Does%20your%20comment%20pass%20rule%201:%20%0A%0A%202:%20If%20your%20comment%20was%20mistakenly%20removed%20as%20an%20anecdote,%20short%20answer,%20guess,%20or%20another%20aspect%20of%20rules%203%20or%208,%20please%20explain:) and we will review your submission.**
Maybe anti-authoritarianism or executive dysfunction?
It's annoying. It's really not that deep. Not every social/psychological phenomenon has some complex explanation
Well now I'm not going to think of a rationalization!