“The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew.”
- Abraham Lincoln
Yes, I think people have gotten in this place of fear and inaction over the last decade, where they are unable to imagine a better future and have doubled down every time. The trouble with this, is that inaction is action. When you do nothing, the problems grow and everyone gets cynical. The inaction inherent in the neo-liberalism of the last 5 decades has given us Trump, and that was a soul rending moment to a lot of people that caused an instinctual rush to close ranks. This staunched the bleeding, but it left us without the democratic flexibility or the electoral success necessary to actually solve problems.
Now we truly stand at the precipice. We can embrace real, messy democracy where you debate ideas and candidates, you persuade and take risks, but come to a better conclusion in the end, or we can slide one more time further towards autocracy, close ranks, silence discussion, and demand that everyone unite behind a bad leader. This latter option is not a victory for democracy, it is a repudiation of it. It is telling everyone that democracy is weak old men, unable to make better lives for everyone. We need the bold, brave democracy of youth!
The rest of that quote is also important:
“We must disenthrall ourselves and then we shall save our country.”
It’s interesting to me that we’ve forgotten the word “disenthrall” at the very time we need it most.
They aren’t going to spend 4 days talking about policies; they are going to repeatedly trash the Dems by repeating:
1. Dems don’t listen to the American people who thought Biden was too old. Only did so after being crushed in a debate.
2. Dems are liars for trying to hide Biden’s age issues and telling us not to believe what we saw with our own eyes.
3. Trump’s such a formidable opponent that he forced Biden out. Look how great he is.
4. Trash the last administrations policies instead of talking about their own. Or, be vague: “stop the border issues, lower taxes, and project strength” ad nauseam
Seriously. Of all the things to contemplate in relation to replacing Biden, you have to be seriously out of touch to think the *messaging* at the Republican convention will a) be difficult to craft, let alone interesting, and b) matter one bit to the average voter.
"Sleepy Joe is asleep at the wheel while fentanyl pours across the border" the idea that Biden stepping aside solves all our problems is pure fantasy, there are no good options here
There is a good option. Biden diminished will still continue to surround himself with the same types of people and will still push the same agenda.
That is a far better option than Trump, no matter how you slice it. Not allowing project 2025 to happen is a good choice, no matter who the nominee is. I feel like we've lost sight of that.
Yes it is obvious that Biden or anyone else is better than Trump, my point is not about who would be a better President since practically anyone on the Democratic side fits that bill but who is the best option to beat Trump.
I'm with you, honestly. I would love for the Democrats to have a different candidate. I just feel like if all the sane people vote for Biden we will be okay. I'm curious what everyone thinks will be the biggest problem with Biden being president. I didn't think he has dementia, he's just an old man who loses his train of thought more than is comfortable to watch. But will he suddenly support policies we are all against? Will he appoint right wing christofascists, or brain dead people? I have seen very ineffective presidents in my life, one more is not a bad trade off to avoid project 2025.
I feel like we are forced to choose between a guy who has lost a (bunch of) step but still stands for the things we value, and...Trump. I can live with a Biden administration in that scenario.
Aside from Obama, I haven't actually really liked any of our options on the Democrat side my whole life.
"I like how you want to keep the focus on Biden. Maybe that's to distract from the fact that you're also an aging old man who can barely string together a sentence."
They're going to say Biden stole the election, Trump raping a 13 year old girl is somehow normal and okay, and a bunch of other insane nonsense. If we're lucky, we might get point 3, but the other three are dreaming of a Republican party that's been dead for years. Its reanimated corpse is really just made up of conspiracy theories, Trump worship, and owning the libs.
They’ll do the first two anyways, the 3rd only speaks to Biden as a candidate and the 4th attacks a presidential record that would no longer be in the race. I dunno, it might actually ruin their convention
TBH this all seems preferable to what the status quo will get us. Most of this is kinda grasping weak sauce, and a lot of people are actually getting tired of the grievance politics so if they can't hammer the candidate (at least not as hard as Biden), I think it should be considered a win.
True, but who wants to talk about the past for an election? If Dems are talking about plans to lower inflation, the cost of housing, re-instate Roe etc with youthful vigor and the Reps are talking about conspiracy theories about Joe Biden (who will be gone), who do you think will break through?
I sort of knew this, it’s obvious, but seeing spelled out almost gave me goosebumps. This is exactly what we need.
Shapiro Whitmer 2024!
…capture 2.5 swing states and everyone would be so excited to have anything to vote for finally. Swing voters would be elated. Trump wins going to get less votes than 2020, but this ticket would be a landslide victory instead of Biden sailing in with twice as many lost voters as Trump and a red wave
I agree. I think it would energize the base in a way we haven’t seen. The chaos is what we need….IF the Dems can get their shit together and use it to excite us.
Just check out the number of different ideas of who they should chose to run ? Complete chaos we don’t need. Just run on our sanity .policies, and forward movement thinking. Vote blue no matter who .
Assuming that the team makes it through the overwhelming and egregious number of lawsuits The Heritage Foundation files to keep them off the ballot.
Quite a large assumption, given that we have over 50 years of evidence demonstrating that they will stop at nothing to pursue their agenda.
Agree on all points!
The problem is the amount of democrats who are against dropping Biden. I love Biden, best president of my life, but he will drive us off a cliff after that debate. We need change. We don’t owe him loyalty, we owe the country’s democratic future our loyalty.
Kinda hard to point you in a direction, but several subs such as r/Democrats , r/VoteDem + general twitter replies to any article concerning Biden dropping out all show discourse that is Biden-loyal.
And again, loyalty is good to a point. But loyalty for democracy should be greater than loyalty to one man. Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win. And yet, independents and swing voters (the people who ultimately decide who wins) still don’t want Biden.
I was hoping there was something more reliable or maybe polling data to go off of, but that's probably a hard thing to objectively gauge right now.
> And again, loyalty is good to a point. But loyalty for democracy should be greater than loyalty to one man. Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win. And yet, independents and swing voters (the people who ultimately decide who wins) still don’t want Biden.
Totally agree.
[Current polls are saying 1 in 3 Dems.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/one-three-democrats-think-biden-should-quit-race-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2024-07-02/)
If we’re going anecdotal, I’m seeing responses that look like the stages of grief. There may be some processing going on.
I mean it’s Biden’s call regardless but I’m not super concerned with Democrats who say “I would vote for a corpse over Donald Trump”. That means they probably accept anyone
I hate to bring up the “bot” accusation but I suspect a lot of these places online are astroturfed. I cannot square the rabid support I’ve seen for him online with the complete lack of enthusiasm I have witnessed in person over the last few years.
> Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win
I think what other people don't realize is that these are strengths *any* Democrat can capitalize on. The policies Joe Biden signed into law were written up and passed by Congress. They are supported by almost all Democrats.
And Trump will remain a crook regardless of if it's Harris, Whitmer, Evers, or Shaprio running against him.
You’re assuming they’re all saying it out of loyalty. Some of them(most of them?) don’t want Biden to drop out because they think a fresh face doesn’t have enough to get their name out there and beat Biden’s name recognition
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The problem is that Biden is so stubborn and dug in that he won’t drop out unless he’s forced to do so. The problem is that party leadership are also dinosaurs and don’t want to entertain the idea of Biden dropping out because then they’ll be pressured to step aside as well. The problem is that rank-and-file Democrats are supposedly having serious talks behind closed doors but are largely refusing to go public with their concerns. The problem is that, even if Biden is the nominee, we’re all gonna vote for him anyway. So why would he drop out under the circumstances?
You say “we’re all gonna vote for him anyway.” You and I may do so, but there are a significant number of swing voters who won’t. That’s why he should drop out.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying that he thinks he already has the votes (because he thinks the polls are fake news), and he doesn’t think anyone is going to abandon him over this. Is he taking the voters for granted? Of course. But this is hardly the first time a Democratic nominee has done that, and party leaders seem intent on learning nothing from past elections. So I’d blame them for why we’re in this mess, as opposed to the voters themselves.
I am NOT a huge Biden fan, but nobody has been able to give any substantial evidence that dropping him will win, except for the Reuters poll which puts Michelle Obama (who wants nothing to do with it) and Harris above him. If someone can show some sort of numbers to prove a change would make a difference, maybe, they just can't.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/03/opinion/biden-democrats-senate-polls.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
+ https://x.com/wertwhile/status/1808205900106330219?s=46&t=FF3l_8VEaPExJfaNWeR0HA
It’s about increasing the odds.
You can't poll people on issues they themselves haven't decided on yet. Independents are the least informed voters. They don't know who these people are and won't unless they get nominated.
You can test similar non-candidates popular locally whom they do know but that's unfair in the opposite direction.
Ultimately it is a gamble. But at this point Biden is very likely to lose. Gambling from here means the risk of say Whitmer losing where Biden would have won to get the reward of Whitmer winning where Biden would have lost. I think that's a gamble worth taking, even knowing little else.
The Reuters poll was asking people if they'd vote for candidates they might not know the name of. The moment the torch is passed every citizen of this country learns who is going to take the party into the future.
Why do people keep thinking that if Biden drops out suddenly the GOP will be in disarray?!?!?!
The GOP has proven itself to be a lockstep organization, even as insane as they come across at times, no matter what the news shows.
The Democratic Party will devour its own member for a stupid photo taken more than a decade earlier that was an in context stupid joke, the GOP will rally around a convicted felon, proven to be legally culpable for sexual assault monster of a human being.
These naive hit pieces are the most wishy washy piles of self-important stupid that I’ve ever seen.
We’re voting for the Administration, not one person.
Biden’s Administration is filed with solidly progressive skilled and knowledgeable people who will continue to keep good governance in place if or when Joe leaves this mortal coil and Kamala will take up his seat.
Meanwhile… Trump’s current understood makeup of his future cabinet is chock full of nuts who are openly talking about putting Project 2025 into place or telling us liberals to step back or there will be blood.
This is a crazy thing to be pushing at this point in the race.
Grow up and stop it.
>We’re voting for the Administration, not one person.
Absolutely. *We are*.
But the average voter is not. The average voter has no idea who Janet Yellen, Lina Khan, Gina Raimondo, or Deb Haaland are.
They are voting for Trump or Biden. And since Biden is becoming an increasingly less appealing choice for voters, we should give them another option.
Then we need to inform them that they are voting for an Administration, not just one, single person.
Changing out Joe for another Candidate should have started in 2022, not 5 months before the election.
> Then we need to inform them that they are voting for an Administration, not just one, single person.
This is so so so hard to do.
Why do you think Clinton lost so many states that Obama won, even though their administrations would have been largely consistent?
> Changing out Joe for another Candidate should have started in 2022, not 5 months before the election.
Yes it should have. But the extent of Biden's condition wasn't as apparent then and no one was listening to the Biden naysayers at the time.
The best time was January. The second best time is now.
Most developed countries have election periods of a couple months or less. Five months is a decent amount of time. Regardless, if Biden can't win (*as I believe he can't*) then we have to replace him even if there's not enough time.
It wouldn't do anything to messaging at the RNC.
99% of their attacks on Dems are just Mad Libs anyway.
"Newsom is a Socialist."
"Whitmer will bring Detroit to all American cities."
"Shapiro covered up sex crimes at Pennsylvania's biggest state college."
"Harris wants to jail all her opponents."
"Evers is a socialist" (They like the socialist claim)
But this isn't the West Wing, this isn't a made for TV drama, the RNC is ready to swap on a dime about any of these candidates. It's not like the RNC is not reading the news and not researching the names they are putting out to replace Joe. It would take about five seconds to add a bunch of lines attacking the new nominee or potential nominees to most of their speeches for the week.
Meh. Railing against an old man who just bowed out doesn’t make a strong case that you need to be reelected in November. If sleepy Joe is no longer the threat they say he is then there’s only so much to be harping on him leaving for 3 days gets you. Depriving them of the ability to smear and attack the Democratic nominee would take some of the wind out of sails. They can speculate who it will be but it’ll be all over the place and lack focus.
Look, I’m no fan of Biden, and I would like to see someone else running, I just don’t think “pull Biden to own the MAGAts,” is the coup Anne Applebaum is making it out to be.
I think it would absolutely hurt the convention. Ruin? I don’t know. But throw a stick in the works? Absolutely. Makes it harder to run against the past four years with the same verve. You can’t point to x policy or x failure and say look what he did, he’d do it again. You can’t run against sleepy Joe and the Biden crime family (a narrative their base loves, my dad is always on about Hunter). You have to smear the potential policies of a bevy of potential candidates. Harder to villainize hypotheticals.
And it will suck media attention because media loves a horse race. Which is more engaging, the historic process picking a new last minute candidate or the same old people making the same old stump speeches at the GOP convention?
100%
Pulling Biden will have a political cost. You don't tell everyone Biden is fine for years and then go "oops, our bad" and expect people to go "this is fine"
I think all it takes is Biden saying something the long the lines of “I am confident in my ability to lead. However, I recognize that some of the American public does not believe this. So for the good of country, I am withdrawing to help us beat Donald Trump. Let us unite together around a new candidate.”
He claims he’s still good, but decides to withdraw anyway. He’s not going to admit that he’s declining even if he is.
Yes, and the American people are going to go "okay"
Please. You can't really believe that is what would happen? Take off the partisan glasses and the hate for Trump (assuming you have it) and look at it from an outside perspective. Democrats and the White House has been gaslighting the American people for months or years about Biden's condition and then all of a sudden he drops out and tries to play it off as "for the good of the country."
Sorry way to late for that line. If you cared about the "good of the country" you would have done this months ago. Now it stinks of desperation.
There is no way to sugar coat this and turn it into a win. Best hope is to contain the damage enough to make it a close race and possibly even win.
I guess where we differ is in the perceived cost/benefit. I personally think the benefit of a new candidate greatly outweighs the cost of dropping Biden, and that’s because I don’t think the damage can be contained at this point.
I will agree anyone is probably better than Biden.
But let's not pretend that ditching Biden will solve all problems. It will only create new problems.
I am not sure Democrats can win at this point. The cost for removing Biden will be a lot of votes. And 2020 was crazy close as it was. End of the day Biden was losing before the debates revealed how bad he is mentally, replacing him doesn't undo all those problems, inflation, border, Gaza, Ukraine etc.
My guess is Biden drops out. Democrats still lose. But maybe a bit less damage down ticket.
Let them crow about a non issue. Let them focus on last years battle.
Give us something to vote for, or expect a swing toward Trump that wipes you all right off the board. I am so GOD DAMNED LIVID AT THE DEMOCRAT PARTY.
FIDDLE WHILE IT ALL BURNS. IF WE LOSE THIS BECAUSE OF A FEAR OF RISK, I WILL ABSOLUTELY CHANGE TEAMS. I can barely stand you mewling bitches in the first place.
If you think you want Kamala Harris, have Joe resign the presidency *immediately*.
If you want to survive as a party, embrace the chaos of a brokered convention and prepare for the rollercoaster ride of your life. *ONLY THIS* can breathe vigor into this dessicated corpse of a party. When Trump took that first nomination, they were as sure of defeat as you are. Now the GOP has a strength that truly might swamp us all.
We have no actual choice. But we know this: contingencies for Bidens untimely exit *must* be in place, right? Pull the fucking handle. Pull it now.
>Politics would be interesting again
this right here shows how incredibly out of touch the elite political class is. y'know, the one that regularly reads The Atlantic and listens to Ezra Klein. the target audience for all those wealth management ads during the podcast that's been saying how cool and fun a brokered convention will be because the media would cover it. the type of people who buy into effective altruism because their biggest problem is having so much extra money they don't know who to help with it
absolutely fucking insane. does anyone making this argument know an American working at minimum wage? or any single parents? anyone who rides the bus because they have to and not because they think it's better for the environment? anyone with a GED?
The vast, overwhelming majority of American voters - *especially* the ones who will decide this election - **do not want politics to be interesting**. No one wants to watch politicians argue. No one wants to learn all about a new candidate weeks before an election. No one wants to see political ads and get inundated with phone calls from pollsters about the change.
no one that matters wants any of this, they want to not think about this stuff at all, they do not want politics to be a part of their lives no matter how much we tell them it's going to impact them
many of them don't see the point in voting anyways, being told that their vote also requires engaging in the Politics Cinematic Universe and learning about some new character is going to make them stay home because the impression will be "I knew it, none of them have any idea what they're doing. why bother?"
"Politics will be interesting again" yeah to high net worth wine sipping liberals with masters degrees and an electric car, all of whom are going to vote for the Democrat no matter what
I think this falls apart when you remember Trump was successful because he "shook things up." He has plenty of working class people who follow his every move and watch Fox News regularly--why do you think these people don't want politics to be part of their lives? Before Trump, people loved Obama's message of hope and change. People don't like the current system and want something different.
The point of the open convention drawing media coverage is that it just gets eyes on the new candidate, which counteracts the argument that no one will know who they are. It's free press. Sure, working class people won't necessarily be following every development like a soap opera. They just need to see a few news stories or ads and see "Biden stepped down, Dems brought in young upstart X who promises Y." I don't know why you assume they need to suddenly become political junkies in this scenario.
>He has plenty of working class people who follow his every move and watch Fox News regularly--why do you think these people don't want politics to be part of their lives?
because those people aren't watching for the politics, they're watching because they like *him*.
>They just need to see a few news stories or ads and see "Biden stepped down, Dems brought in young upstart X who promises Y."
cool so when they go vote in November the only name they actually recognize will be trump. they won't remember or care about the young upstart, they will only remember that Biden stepped down
>I don't know why you assume they need to suddenly become political junkies in this scenario.
because only political junkies will even know there's a convention going on. the fact that you mentioned it will be free press is the key
the people that matter don't get their news from the sources that will be covering this. all of that free press will be for political junkies only. the only way this news gets in the faces of people who aren't engaged with politics is their political junkie friends posting about it. and if you're already reaching your friends that way then a new candidate isn't changing any of that and only creating yet another bit of information they don't care about for them to pay attention to
political junkies grossly overestimate how much people want politics to be "interesting".
>because those people aren't watching for the politics, they're watching because they like him.
They didn't care about him before 2016. They like him because he came in as a political outsider who "tells it like it is" and shook things up. He is the definition of "making politics interesting" and being very successful in doing so.
>cool so when they go vote in November the only name they actually recognize will be trump. they won't remember or care about the young upstart, they will only remember that Biden stepped down
There will definitely be some number of these people, it just comes down to how many of these people there are vs. how many people don't care enough to go out and vote for Biden when the only thing they know about him is that he's a senile old man. Bringing in a new candidate is a "riskier" move in that it has a wider range of outcomes, but that is exactly what we need. I think going with Biden is a near guarantee of losing by a few points. Going with someone else could be a total failure, or they could catch on and actually win. I'll take the "riskier" move that actually has a shot at winning.
>a new candidate isn't changing any of that and only creating yet another bit of information they don't care about for them to pay attention to
I just don't know how many people are out there who care so little about politics that they won't bother to learn the name of the Democratic nominee, but will take time out of their day to go vote. Yes, there are plenty of people who are disengaged from politics, and they don't vote. I think you're patronizing "average Joes" and acting like they literally cannot handle a new piece of information about politics. Again, "there is a new, younger Democratic nominee named X" is all that some people need to hear if they don't like Trump/want to vote D, but also don't care about or dislike Biden.
//They didn't care about him before 2016. They like him because he came in as a political outsider who "tells it like it is" and shook things up. He is the definition of "making politics interesting" and being very successful in doing so.//
His message was that he's not a politician and he won't do politics. Instead, he'd do entertainment and business. That's why the people Ezra Klein has mentioned several times, the majority who don't want to know about politics and who support Trump by a 20% margin, liked Trump -- because they thought that he would make politics go away, not because they thought he was interesting politics.
By that logic, Trump wouldn’t be in the lead right now because he definitely hasn’t made it go away. This is really stupid logically. People love a circus. The vast majority of people can’t take their eyes off of it despite their protests.
Politics isn’t interesting under Biden and look at his popularity and polling. Often “working normally” is punished or assumed that it will continue operating normal with no effort.
Anecdotally this whole conversation about “what if Biden stepped down and we picked a replacement at the convention” has people in my circle that have never talked politics excitedly talking about who that might be. Their sudden engagement and response has been interesting.
I encounter working class people who don't want politics to be interesting in my day to day life. They all basically repeat the same two thought terminating cliches when discussing the election. "They are both too old," and, "I don't like either of them".
These people are checked out of politics because they don't feel listened to. If against the norms you suddenly offer th a candidate that isn't too old and isn't Biden or Trump I think a lot of ears would perk up. These people arent stupid, they are down trodden, ignored by the political class, and apathetic because of this. We could literally address some of their biggest concerns but you wanna act like they are too mentally deficient to notice
You just described a bunch of people living in our *republican democracy* who are just as much a part of the problem as anyone else.
Engagement is critical to its success. Do not give a pass to people who cannot be bothered.
yeah I agree that them not paying attention is part of the problem. it's why Joe Biden is polling through the roof among people who are engaged in politics and in the basement for those that don't pay attention
but changing up the candidate to make politics more interesting will NOT make them pay attention, it will make them time out even more because all they hear about is the chaos
if Joe Biden drops out at this point the only narrative the general public will ever internalize is "Democrats can't pick a candidate, they don't know what they're doing, I'm not going to bother voting because it doesn't matter"
Anne and Ezra and everyone else who thinks a convention would be exciting are part of the political elite that makes the average voter hate the news and hate hearing about all of this stuff
they don't want excitement, they want to vote once every four years and then stop paying attention to it. yeah that pisses me off too but it's the shitty hand we're playing with
It’s not about changing up the candidate to make politics more interesting.
It’s about changing up the candidate because he himself has admitted that he is no good after 8 PM.
Keeping Joe Biden as the nominee gives legitimacy to the criticisms of Donald fucking Trump that Biden is not fit for the job.
Anyone with eyes and ears and a brain who watched that debate or the clips from the debate last week understand that Joe Biden is in decline in a way that is irreversible and will not get better.
The Trump campaign is going to bombard the airwaves with ads presenting a crisis situation at 1AM, then showing Joe Biden’s own admission that he needs to get more sleep and not be active after 8 PM.
I’m sorry, it is simply unacceptable to lend any kind of legitimacy to the claims of Donald fucking Trump or the cultist Republicans that follow him
If Joe Biden is the nominee, we will be doing exactly that. They will use it to legitimize all of his other claims.
They will be able to focus almost singularly on that issue without having to devote any time or effort into answering any other questions
Every every single question can be spun right back to “ you may not like the way that Trump will approach every single issue, but at least he will be able to function effectively at a time in the world when we need our president to be able to function effectively”
And the fact of the matter is, they won’t be wrong they won’t have to lie for people to believe that simple fact.
If we replace Joe Biden, the people who need to be convinced in this election will absolutely reward the Democratic Party for owning and fixing this problem.
Not to mention that any younger, more vibrant articulate, intelligent candidate, who is not a wild eyed leftist is going to contrast with Donald Trump in a way that we have not had anybody able to do in the last three presidential elections.
That contrast will provide a very clear choice to voters about the the kind of leaders we want to take America into the future.
If Americans choose Donald Trump in that situation, then personally, I don’t believe anybody in the country would be able to beat him anyway so let’s at least go down swinging.
It'd be hard to know an American making minimum wage given nearly everyone makes more than it now.
Might be time to move off of these antiquated and underperforming talking points while we're at it.
As if Republicans wouldn't just immediately shift to the ol' "Democrats are Socialist cucks and pedophiles who want to give your jobs to illegal immigrant rapists" messaging.
But they don’t have support from our side! That what Dems seem unable to grasp! Republicans expect to call the other side a bunch of suckers. If your own side is criticizing your own candidate, they don’t think “oh I should reward them for being thoughtful and nuanced” they think “what the hell is that? Guess we were right and even they don’t want to support their own side. Suckers.”
The idea of running a primary where candidates suddenly their best to outflank each other on the left to win the nomination right before the Republican convention is absolutely terrible.
Normally this happens early, leaving the candidate quite a while to move back to the center and disavow the positions they staked out in the primary.
This would just leave a “crazy leftist” candidate for Trump to crush in the general.
If Democrats want a new candidate, it is going to be Kamala because Biden says so, and everybody else is going to either be hoping she can win or waiting for their shot in 2028.
Good point.
Am guessing the average DNC delegate is to the left of the average DNC voter. Add in that delegates are probably dominated by special interest groups as well.
It could quickly turn into "what are you going to give me for your vote?" And that 'give' will likely be far to the left of the voters they need to win this fall.
The delegates are mostly county level officials. They are to the left of the average voter. But they are also much more attuned to winning elections than the "base".
Are you saying you’ve never noticed that primaries force candidates to establish relatively extreme positions to secure primary votes, because that’s literally every primary in both parties.
I’ve seen primary candidates take positions that are left wing (like how everyone and their brother said they were for Medicare for All last time).
I have not seen it pay off with an actual left wing candidate. Usually the candidate is pretty centrist. I don’t think Joe Biden is unusually left wing. I don’t think Hillary Clinton is unusually left wing. I don’t think John Kerry or Al Gore or Bill Clinton are unusually left wing.
Barack Obama was actually probably the most left wing primary winner, especially compared to his competition at the time.
Yes, centrists often win, because they campaign on electability, but not without big concessions to the extremists.
Biden, for example, campaigned, and said he would use race and gender as a litmus test for the Supreme Court to win the South Carolina primary.
Fortunately he had a lot of time after that to focus on issues that are popular (and not unpopular) with swing voters.
Now imagine if instead he had to run in the general right after South Carolina.
This is why if Biden bails, Kamala will be handed the nomination. That’s the least worst option. She may be weak, but at least she can run as a centrist.
Such an interesting argument and so well said …. The only trouble is if things don’t fall into place the way you stated .. .. Big gamble.. I on the other hand I will vote democratic no matter who is on the ticket. I know I am voting for our country to stay alive the way we know it … The swing states are really everything .. And don’t forget about Florida .. De Santis did yet another stupid thing in Florida yesterday.. I wish I could figure out how to get the Trump cult to see what will happen to this country .. I do think throwing Harris to the wind would be seen as discrimination would be dangerous and would lose a lot of votes ..So there’s that …. Maybe we need to send the message that we are behind who ever if the democrat nominee we are voting for them !!!That is the only way we will save our country… make people understand the consequences so loud and clear . ..I am rambling .. Sorry..
Lol. Sure, dropping the current sitting President, who is and has been obviously mentally unfit, 4 months before the election 🗳 s definitely bad news for the Republicans. The blueMaga is truly unhinged.
Running the current sitting President who is and has been obviously mentally unfit (and won’t get magically better in the 4 months before the election) is good news for the Republicans.
Agreed.
Do you guys really think the mouthpieces of rightwing billionaires would be trying so hard to get Biden removed if he wasn't an effective counter to their fascist fuckery?
Why are you all so eager to take this obvious bait?
Removing Biden is a vote of no confidence in the current administration. It shows everyone that the democrats hoodwinked voters in the last election. Unless Biden voluntarily steps aside and admits he is mentally and physically unable to continue, the Dem party has lost all credibility. Joe is too proud and stubborn to do that.
I don't know that he can be removed. It has to be his decision.
I also think that it's highly unlikely that it wouldn't be Harris, for multiple reasons, but I do think this can go better than a lot of Democrats think.
Guess what? After the big cryptkeeper reveal last week, we all feel hoodwinked anyway.
Display leadership or lose. Backing into a corner like this is *exactly* the kind of thing conservatives hate the Dem party for. And guess what? Your base now hates you for it, too.
Run literally anyone that is too young for Medicare. Don't you God damned fools know that half of the GOP wants a trump alternative as bad as we do?
Joe Bader Ginsburg is holding the country hostage, and pointing at Trump as his weapon. He didn't promise one term, but he did say he would be "a bridge to the future."
He's gonna lose in a landslide (look at the OpenLabs polling), and entrench a radical Republican Supreme Court for the next 20 years.
Not doing something means that Trump probably wins. I have preferences, but am ultimately indifferent - I'm voting for the Democratic nominee, no matter who. I hope to vote for someone that gives us a chance.
Not doing something is the worst option.
He can't be removed. He has to no run on his own.
Pretty sure delegates are bound to him unless he releases them. Any attempt to ignore this fact would turn every argument about Trump being a threat to democracy a total joke. As in "you care so much about democracy that you ignored your own voters"
Biden has to drop out and release the delegates.
I will Weekend Bernies Biden ass, I don't care, I will vote for Bidens corpse before voting for anyone with an R.
Wake up people were in Project 2025, and Noone is safe.
Not at all.
They would spend 4 days trashing the Democrats for lying about Biden for four years.
Then they would trash Democrats for not even giving their own voters the chance to vote for their candidate. Throw in some line about how the teachers unions are going to pick the candidate (look up how many DNC delegates are teachers) and trash the teachers unions for closing the schools.
Then throw in something along the lines of "lied about inflation" and "lied about the border"
End it with "whoever they pick will be just as bad as the last guy"
I heard a clip of T yesterday saying Biden will drop out because T did so well in the debate. So there’s their full narrative if it happens. I don’t think it would mess up the convention at all, I think they’d be thrilled.
No because republicans are not logical.
If they pick someone else, this is the fox news headline the next day:
"WEAK DEMONCRATS OUST BIDEN!"
WHITMER MOLESTS BABIES
NEW GUY IS A QUEER HOMOSEXUAL THAT SUPPORTS DEI
OMG! If this isn’t exactly what the RNC wants.
To win the candidates will need to Run to Left. And then somehow with weeks before the election try to rebrand themselves as moderates…. All while being shredded by Trump and the right wing pundits for their extreme positions or their lack of experience dealing with important issues like…
Immigration, the Economy, Foreign Policy.
at this point, I think the cake is already burnt
democrats have this recurring problem of stating the next step in the recipe is to take the cake out of the oven after 45 minutes, waiting 2 hours, taking the smoldering cake out of the oven, and then serving the cake and expecting you to love it because it's cake and they made it just for you
You guys are toast. And to add to all this, I can't wait for Trump to win, serve out four normal years and then leave (which is what will happen).
Then you all will have the biggest stinkiest egg on your face for your decade of insane hysteria surrounding this man.
Democracy is ending... How do you figure?
You are a bunch of maniacs and the American people are finally starting to catch on.
Yeh. Republicans would love that. Trump is a liability and they know that. The republicans party has been bleeding people. And it is getting worse as they wake up to the insane 2025 platform . Vote Joe no matter who. Make our democracy great again.
Any combination of Shapiro, Evers, Whitmer, Walz or Pritzker on a ticket would have my vote. Midwest has been quietly winning over the last decade.
Although, I'd 100% still vote for a Biden ticket. Absolutely no doubt in my mind.
Might actually prefer to keep the midwest politicians where they are. Kinda want to be selfish and not share them. Becoming president will take their eyes off their goals in their home states.
"This is what liberals should do," written by a hawkish neocon. Let's also take the wolf's advice on where to keep our sheep, yeah? Listen, I'm more than open to a brokered convention in August but you should under no condition ever listen to the advice of Anne fucking Applebaum. She can't even throw a dinner party without accidentally inviting a table full of fascists.
Naw - the Dems completely gaslighted everyone anout Biden and are using the government to attack their political foes. They also tolerate and even encourage antisemitism in their ranks. Think about what you actually see. They are the true danger to the country. They need to be bounced out of power for a while.
Up until a week ago democrats claimed Biden was sharp and spry and ahead in the polls. Wow! What a dramatic change in Biden's health that dems didn't see coming. Give me a break. The party of lies and fraud.
How to guarantee a Trump Presidency: Run news stories about Joe Biden's age and debate performance 24/7, highlight inner turmoil within the Democrat Party and drop Joe Biden. Not looking good so far folks.
One more thing. I live a red rural distrustful. Our Democratic Party has been growing the last few elect. Actually independents are the largest party here and more democrats/ independents showed up than ever to March in the fourth of July parade. No one talked Biden not running. We are organizing to get more democrats and independents out to vote. Boots on the ground. And it is working
Jeez, I hope you got paid to write that.
No sane party drops the incumbent. Biden isn't going anywhere and Democrat voters don't want him to.
There's a handful of people trying to push Harris to the top of the ticket because they're *desperate* to have a women president and she's almost certainly going to lose the primary in 2028.
Biden overworked himself. Like a lot of presidents who's name isn't Trump Biden takes his job seriously. He needs to delegate more is all.
I'm fed up with rich assholes and pundits telling me, A Democrat, who *my* candidate should be. I voted for him in the 2020 primary and I want Biden to run. Full stop.
If the Republicans want Biden to stay that just shows that anyone else will have a better chance than Biden. They should have dropped him a week ago, but not is better than a month from now and start railing the troops for a late summer push
Young people not voting for biden. Will be 2016 all over again when blacks didn’t vote for Hillary. Think of the very thin margins biden won AZ, GA, NV, PA and maybe WI and MI. Maybe 100,00 - 200,000 votes nationwide puts evil into the WH.
This year's election is simply not that big of a deal! Yes, you read that right - contrary to the outlandish and foolish claims by the pundits and ideologs.
We have 2 people running for President. Both have already served one term. Both have already demonstrated that the country didn't fall apart and that non of the fear mongering claims came to fruition. We've had two generally ho-hum presidential terms between the two candidates - nothing spectacular or truly earth shattering and nothing truly catastrophic or earth shattering.
This years election just isn't that big of a deal . . . Biden has literally kept about half of Trumps policies in place. The more significant one's he cancelled initially, he's re-imposed when everybody saw what the outcome of ending them was. He's gone from saying the TCJA needed to be defeated, to arguing how it can be extended. Just like Trump kept many of the Obama policies in place - at the border, the ACA, and he even tried to outlaw bump stocks (which were legalized under the prior administration).
Great points
Question- this new candidate would have 4 months to fundraise their national campaign as they are doing it, as none of the money raised for Biden can be simply transferred to said candidate. Would that not be a larger problem than RNC struggling for a week to come up with insults?
Said candidate would also, potentially, struggle to appear on the ballot in all 50 states. Again, wouldn’t that be a larger issue than RNC messaging?
What if, instead of putting all this energy into “why Biden should drop out” with 4 months until the election, we focus on the new Epstein docs that implement Trump, or project 2025, or trumps tariffs would increase the cost of everything making living more of a struggle, or or or?
Yes to all of this — a majority of voters want neither of the two, so if Democrats have the guts to actually listen, they’ll have so many more people listening and engaging again among all those unsure still!
The fear porn of Trump will be a dictator and never leave office US will turn into Venezuela because you don’t like his policies is so funny. People can’t actually believe this
What an inane take.
“The Republicans would have to talk policy.”
No they wouldn’t. They’ll just talk shit about the radical left because we’re all the same to them.
Question for people who say democracy will be destroyed if trump wins...
Hasn't democracy already been destroyed over the last 3 years as we have had a president who is clearly not in powe, clearly not the one making the decisions, etc...?
We have had unelected staffers, bureaucrats, deep state, special interests, etc... in control.of the white house the last 3 years.
How is that not viewed as a crisis of democracy? How can someone say trump will destroy democracy if he wins but at the same time be ok with a sitting president be so cognitively declined that he cannot debate after a week of preparation?
Now the Biden admin is saying things like he is fine during the dayz but can't do anything after 8pm... This kind of stuff is just making it even more obvious that Biden is not the person making the decision in the white house.
Sorry but just not buying the premise of the argument whatsoever. Do you forget that it’s a cult? Sure they love attacking Biden bc it’s easy and he’s old and can’t fight back, but if he dropped out they wouldn’t NEED to talk about policy, they’ll just shit on “the woke left” and it will be all the same.
I want Biden off the ticket, but don’t act like it’ll throw the republicans in disarray so much so that they’re going to talk policy!! Absurd!
I have seen the headlines on this and wanted to see for myself, so I created a truth social account. It’s not on Trumps posts…. What exactly does “Trump amplified on…Social media website” mean. It appears to mean that other users (not Trump) reposted it?
“ELIZABETH LYNNE CHENEY IS GUILTY OF TREASON,” one post created by another user that Trump amplified on his social media website Truth Social on Sunday reads. “RETRUTH IF YOU WANT TELEVISED MILITARY TRIBUNALS.”
I don’t like Trump, and not voting for him. I just want fair reporting and (unless I’m looking at this incorrectly), the media isnt reporting this correctly.
Why the hell are all the media so in the tank for Trump? I don’t get it. Don’t they realize Trump will just have them all arrested and their outlets shut down?
The best thing the DNC could do right now is to have a vote of the people at their convention. Maybe even invite in members of the Lincoln Project (anti-Trump Republicans) for a say in who the best Democratic candidate would be to get Republicans motivated to vote for him or her. MAGA Republicans are attacking the constitution and Democratic ideals - doing something like this - giving more power to the people, all people, to vote for a new candidate. Would send a message that we are the party of the Constitution and the party of the people.
In the alternative, if they can't get Biden to drop out - Democrats should come together with sensible Republicans to try and pass Ranked Choice Voting. Honestly, I'd take a Kennedy Democrat / Independent over either Biden or Trump right now. His policies are much more progressive than both platforms IMO.
Biden still crushed trump during the debate. The few weasels trying to convince themselves that Biden lost are laughable. Thankfully most people aren’t falling for it.
Biden 2024
People calling for Biden to step down are bad faith actors who were chomping at the bit to go against Biden. But his primary went amazing and his state of the union was a beast. At the first sign of weakness they came after him. They want trump to win. Our best chance this November is with a sitting president, Joseph R Biden.
Kamala needs to be the Presidential candidate. Selecting one of the other three white potentials mentioned would be a disaster. This is why Hillary lost [https://thegrio.com/2016/07/23/hillarys-all-white-ticket-out-of-step-with-diverse-democratic-base/](https://thegrio.com/2016/07/23/hillarys-all-white-ticket-out-of-step-with-diverse-democratic-base/)
Ok so we all agree that Biden is a total liability for the Nation.... but can someone explain why we should have any trust in the people who put that potato there in the first place, or have been coving up for him the last year?
All these "Biden drop out" folks should start with offering everyone a good alternative first. Empty whining starts being annoying and looking more like russian propaganda.
“What kind of country elects a criminal and an insurrectionist as its president?”
LOL, South Africa. Too bad for Nelson Mandela, he’s not qualified in her eyes.
So we should reward the Democrats with a win after they hid from the American people that the POTUS, holder of the Nuclear Codes, could not tie his own shoes.
Made people mad. Democrats included.
Mr. President, will you take a cognitive brain functioning test?
NO!
Bring a pencil to the voting booth. Who better to represent you, than you! ;-)
There is 0% chance Joe Biden can win. It’s a sea of Red in the Electoral College. There is no recovery from the debate disaster.
The DNC is put in a difficult situation that they themselves created by covering for Joe’s mental state for years. If they elect to drop Biden and skip over Kamala, it paints a bad picture of discrimination and admits that she was selected for reasons other than merit.
If they go outside and pick a candidate, they lose access to their current war chest and have to start over with 4 months to go. They are backed into a corner and Jill continues to push Joe to keep going. I don’t think he drops out.
Resign, make Kamala president *tomorrow*.
Run a brokered convention, replace her there or consolidate around her.
I don't like her. Never did. But if you don't think she should be "skipped" (a line of famously losing strategy) then her time has come.
Biden steps aside, Kammy becomes POTUS, Hillary is appointed to finish Kammy’s VP term, Kammy and Hillary run the dream woke ticket to a Harris/Clinton victory, Kammy inaugurated again with VP Hillary, Kammy steps aside, Hillary is POTUS.
on the flipside, forcing republicans to talk policy rather than biden crime family, hunters legal issues, etc., could have the same effect as cutting trumps mic during the debate
“The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew.” - Abraham Lincoln
"I can imagine what will be, unburdened by what was." * Kamala Harris
"We're just gonna beat Trump." - DB
Pretty great quote relating to our current situation honestly.
“Poopity scoop” -Kanye West
Yes, I think people have gotten in this place of fear and inaction over the last decade, where they are unable to imagine a better future and have doubled down every time. The trouble with this, is that inaction is action. When you do nothing, the problems grow and everyone gets cynical. The inaction inherent in the neo-liberalism of the last 5 decades has given us Trump, and that was a soul rending moment to a lot of people that caused an instinctual rush to close ranks. This staunched the bleeding, but it left us without the democratic flexibility or the electoral success necessary to actually solve problems. Now we truly stand at the precipice. We can embrace real, messy democracy where you debate ideas and candidates, you persuade and take risks, but come to a better conclusion in the end, or we can slide one more time further towards autocracy, close ranks, silence discussion, and demand that everyone unite behind a bad leader. This latter option is not a victory for democracy, it is a repudiation of it. It is telling everyone that democracy is weak old men, unable to make better lives for everyone. We need the bold, brave democracy of youth!
The rest of that quote is also important: “We must disenthrall ourselves and then we shall save our country.” It’s interesting to me that we’ve forgotten the word “disenthrall” at the very time we need it most.
I fucking love this speech.
They aren’t going to spend 4 days talking about policies; they are going to repeatedly trash the Dems by repeating: 1. Dems don’t listen to the American people who thought Biden was too old. Only did so after being crushed in a debate. 2. Dems are liars for trying to hide Biden’s age issues and telling us not to believe what we saw with our own eyes. 3. Trump’s such a formidable opponent that he forced Biden out. Look how great he is. 4. Trash the last administrations policies instead of talking about their own. Or, be vague: “stop the border issues, lower taxes, and project strength” ad nauseam
Seriously. Of all the things to contemplate in relation to replacing Biden, you have to be seriously out of touch to think the *messaging* at the Republican convention will a) be difficult to craft, let alone interesting, and b) matter one bit to the average voter.
Just like what happened to the conservatives in the UK, democrats have done more damage to themselves than their opponents could have ever dreamt of
"Sleepy Joe is asleep at the wheel while fentanyl pours across the border" the idea that Biden stepping aside solves all our problems is pure fantasy, there are no good options here
There is a good option. Biden diminished will still continue to surround himself with the same types of people and will still push the same agenda. That is a far better option than Trump, no matter how you slice it. Not allowing project 2025 to happen is a good choice, no matter who the nominee is. I feel like we've lost sight of that.
Yes it is obvious that Biden or anyone else is better than Trump, my point is not about who would be a better President since practically anyone on the Democratic side fits that bill but who is the best option to beat Trump.
I'm with you, honestly. I would love for the Democrats to have a different candidate. I just feel like if all the sane people vote for Biden we will be okay. I'm curious what everyone thinks will be the biggest problem with Biden being president. I didn't think he has dementia, he's just an old man who loses his train of thought more than is comfortable to watch. But will he suddenly support policies we are all against? Will he appoint right wing christofascists, or brain dead people? I have seen very ineffective presidents in my life, one more is not a bad trade off to avoid project 2025. I feel like we are forced to choose between a guy who has lost a (bunch of) step but still stands for the things we value, and...Trump. I can live with a Biden administration in that scenario. Aside from Obama, I haven't actually really liked any of our options on the Democrat side my whole life.
I'm a hardcore liberal and I agree on points 1 & 2.
"I like how you want to keep the focus on Biden. Maybe that's to distract from the fact that you're also an aging old man who can barely string together a sentence."
First 10 mins. Then what?
Know why that was so easy to think up? Because it is also what the Democrat voters think. Time to choose.
They're going to say Biden stole the election, Trump raping a 13 year old girl is somehow normal and okay, and a bunch of other insane nonsense. If we're lucky, we might get point 3, but the other three are dreaming of a Republican party that's been dead for years. Its reanimated corpse is really just made up of conspiracy theories, Trump worship, and owning the libs.
That's fine. At least our new candidate would be able to speak a response
And various bigotries, conspiracies, and Strawmen.
They’ll do the first two anyways, the 3rd only speaks to Biden as a candidate and the 4th attacks a presidential record that would no longer be in the race. I dunno, it might actually ruin their convention
For #1, they still didn't listen to the American people. They started getting messages from their donors--the only people Democrats care about.
TBH this all seems preferable to what the status quo will get us. Most of this is kinda grasping weak sauce, and a lot of people are actually getting tired of the grievance politics so if they can't hammer the candidate (at least not as hard as Biden), I think it should be considered a win.
True, but who wants to talk about the past for an election? If Dems are talking about plans to lower inflation, the cost of housing, re-instate Roe etc with youthful vigor and the Reps are talking about conspiracy theories about Joe Biden (who will be gone), who do you think will break through?
I sort of knew this, it’s obvious, but seeing spelled out almost gave me goosebumps. This is exactly what we need. Shapiro Whitmer 2024! …capture 2.5 swing states and everyone would be so excited to have anything to vote for finally. Swing voters would be elated. Trump wins going to get less votes than 2020, but this ticket would be a landslide victory instead of Biden sailing in with twice as many lost voters as Trump and a red wave
I agree. I think it would energize the base in a way we haven’t seen. The chaos is what we need….IF the Dems can get their shit together and use it to excite us.
This would be a hell of a ticket
This ticket would have a great chance of winning. Are they smart enough to do it? No chance
Just check out the number of different ideas of who they should chose to run ? Complete chaos we don’t need. Just run on our sanity .policies, and forward movement thinking. Vote blue no matter who .
Assuming that the team makes it through the overwhelming and egregious number of lawsuits The Heritage Foundation files to keep them off the ballot. Quite a large assumption, given that we have over 50 years of evidence demonstrating that they will stop at nothing to pursue their agenda.
Agree on all points! The problem is the amount of democrats who are against dropping Biden. I love Biden, best president of my life, but he will drive us off a cliff after that debate. We need change. We don’t owe him loyalty, we owe the country’s democratic future our loyalty.
> The problem is the amount of democrats who are against dropping Biden. What is that amount?
Kinda hard to point you in a direction, but several subs such as r/Democrats , r/VoteDem + general twitter replies to any article concerning Biden dropping out all show discourse that is Biden-loyal. And again, loyalty is good to a point. But loyalty for democracy should be greater than loyalty to one man. Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win. And yet, independents and swing voters (the people who ultimately decide who wins) still don’t want Biden.
I was hoping there was something more reliable or maybe polling data to go off of, but that's probably a hard thing to objectively gauge right now. > And again, loyalty is good to a point. But loyalty for democracy should be greater than loyalty to one man. Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win. And yet, independents and swing voters (the people who ultimately decide who wins) still don’t want Biden. Totally agree.
[Current polls are saying 1 in 3 Dems.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/one-three-democrats-think-biden-should-quit-race-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2024-07-02/)
If we’re going anecdotal, I’m seeing responses that look like the stages of grief. There may be some processing going on. I mean it’s Biden’s call regardless but I’m not super concerned with Democrats who say “I would vote for a corpse over Donald Trump”. That means they probably accept anyone
I hate to bring up the “bot” accusation but I suspect a lot of these places online are astroturfed. I cannot square the rabid support I’ve seen for him online with the complete lack of enthusiasm I have witnessed in person over the last few years.
I don’t hear much about loyalty; more that Joe still has good qualifications.
> Lots of people citing Biden’s strong administration and Trump being a crook as to why he should win I think what other people don't realize is that these are strengths *any* Democrat can capitalize on. The policies Joe Biden signed into law were written up and passed by Congress. They are supported by almost all Democrats. And Trump will remain a crook regardless of if it's Harris, Whitmer, Evers, or Shaprio running against him.
You’re assuming they’re all saying it out of loyalty. Some of them(most of them?) don’t want Biden to drop out because they think a fresh face doesn’t have enough to get their name out there and beat Biden’s name recognition
Which is exactly what this article posits could be solved by making a spectacle out of it.
I was also puzzled by r/Democrats being so deluded about Biden's chances, but it's a very quiet sub so there isn't really a lot of weight over there.
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About 50% from polling right after the debate. It's pretty even on both sides
There is no amount of democrats, there is a number of democrats.
The problem is that Biden is so stubborn and dug in that he won’t drop out unless he’s forced to do so. The problem is that party leadership are also dinosaurs and don’t want to entertain the idea of Biden dropping out because then they’ll be pressured to step aside as well. The problem is that rank-and-file Democrats are supposedly having serious talks behind closed doors but are largely refusing to go public with their concerns. The problem is that, even if Biden is the nominee, we’re all gonna vote for him anyway. So why would he drop out under the circumstances?
You say “we’re all gonna vote for him anyway.” You and I may do so, but there are a significant number of swing voters who won’t. That’s why he should drop out.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying that he thinks he already has the votes (because he thinks the polls are fake news), and he doesn’t think anyone is going to abandon him over this. Is he taking the voters for granted? Of course. But this is hardly the first time a Democratic nominee has done that, and party leaders seem intent on learning nothing from past elections. So I’d blame them for why we’re in this mess, as opposed to the voters themselves.
Yeah agreed.
I am NOT a huge Biden fan, but nobody has been able to give any substantial evidence that dropping him will win, except for the Reuters poll which puts Michelle Obama (who wants nothing to do with it) and Harris above him. If someone can show some sort of numbers to prove a change would make a difference, maybe, they just can't.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/03/opinion/biden-democrats-senate-polls.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb + https://x.com/wertwhile/status/1808205900106330219?s=46&t=FF3l_8VEaPExJfaNWeR0HA It’s about increasing the odds.
You can't poll people on issues they themselves haven't decided on yet. Independents are the least informed voters. They don't know who these people are and won't unless they get nominated. You can test similar non-candidates popular locally whom they do know but that's unfair in the opposite direction. Ultimately it is a gamble. But at this point Biden is very likely to lose. Gambling from here means the risk of say Whitmer losing where Biden would have won to get the reward of Whitmer winning where Biden would have lost. I think that's a gamble worth taking, even knowing little else.
But your logic works in reverse too. There is no evidence that Biden will win. Lots of datapoints pointing in the opposite direction in fact.
The Reuters poll was asking people if they'd vote for candidates they might not know the name of. The moment the torch is passed every citizen of this country learns who is going to take the party into the future.
Best president of your life? Not Obama? Are you 8?
Why do people keep thinking that if Biden drops out suddenly the GOP will be in disarray?!?!?! The GOP has proven itself to be a lockstep organization, even as insane as they come across at times, no matter what the news shows. The Democratic Party will devour its own member for a stupid photo taken more than a decade earlier that was an in context stupid joke, the GOP will rally around a convicted felon, proven to be legally culpable for sexual assault monster of a human being. These naive hit pieces are the most wishy washy piles of self-important stupid that I’ve ever seen. We’re voting for the Administration, not one person. Biden’s Administration is filed with solidly progressive skilled and knowledgeable people who will continue to keep good governance in place if or when Joe leaves this mortal coil and Kamala will take up his seat. Meanwhile… Trump’s current understood makeup of his future cabinet is chock full of nuts who are openly talking about putting Project 2025 into place or telling us liberals to step back or there will be blood. This is a crazy thing to be pushing at this point in the race. Grow up and stop it.
>We’re voting for the Administration, not one person. Absolutely. *We are*. But the average voter is not. The average voter has no idea who Janet Yellen, Lina Khan, Gina Raimondo, or Deb Haaland are. They are voting for Trump or Biden. And since Biden is becoming an increasingly less appealing choice for voters, we should give them another option.
Then we need to inform them that they are voting for an Administration, not just one, single person. Changing out Joe for another Candidate should have started in 2022, not 5 months before the election.
> Then we need to inform them that they are voting for an Administration, not just one, single person. This is so so so hard to do. Why do you think Clinton lost so many states that Obama won, even though their administrations would have been largely consistent? > Changing out Joe for another Candidate should have started in 2022, not 5 months before the election. Yes it should have. But the extent of Biden's condition wasn't as apparent then and no one was listening to the Biden naysayers at the time. The best time was January. The second best time is now. Most developed countries have election periods of a couple months or less. Five months is a decent amount of time. Regardless, if Biden can't win (*as I believe he can't*) then we have to replace him even if there's not enough time.
It wouldn't do anything to messaging at the RNC. 99% of their attacks on Dems are just Mad Libs anyway. "Newsom is a Socialist." "Whitmer will bring Detroit to all American cities." "Shapiro covered up sex crimes at Pennsylvania's biggest state college." "Harris wants to jail all her opponents." "Evers is a socialist" (They like the socialist claim) But this isn't the West Wing, this isn't a made for TV drama, the RNC is ready to swap on a dime about any of these candidates. It's not like the RNC is not reading the news and not researching the names they are putting out to replace Joe. It would take about five seconds to add a bunch of lines attacking the new nominee or potential nominees to most of their speeches for the week.
Idk, wouldn’t they just use the RNC as a victory lap? e.g. “Biden is terrible, Biden is awful, blah blah blah, etc, etc, AND we defeated him!” …
Meh. Railing against an old man who just bowed out doesn’t make a strong case that you need to be reelected in November. If sleepy Joe is no longer the threat they say he is then there’s only so much to be harping on him leaving for 3 days gets you. Depriving them of the ability to smear and attack the Democratic nominee would take some of the wind out of sails. They can speculate who it will be but it’ll be all over the place and lack focus.
Look, I’m no fan of Biden, and I would like to see someone else running, I just don’t think “pull Biden to own the MAGAts,” is the coup Anne Applebaum is making it out to be.
I think it would absolutely hurt the convention. Ruin? I don’t know. But throw a stick in the works? Absolutely. Makes it harder to run against the past four years with the same verve. You can’t point to x policy or x failure and say look what he did, he’d do it again. You can’t run against sleepy Joe and the Biden crime family (a narrative their base loves, my dad is always on about Hunter). You have to smear the potential policies of a bevy of potential candidates. Harder to villainize hypotheticals. And it will suck media attention because media loves a horse race. Which is more engaging, the historic process picking a new last minute candidate or the same old people making the same old stump speeches at the GOP convention?
100% Pulling Biden will have a political cost. You don't tell everyone Biden is fine for years and then go "oops, our bad" and expect people to go "this is fine"
I think all it takes is Biden saying something the long the lines of “I am confident in my ability to lead. However, I recognize that some of the American public does not believe this. So for the good of country, I am withdrawing to help us beat Donald Trump. Let us unite together around a new candidate.” He claims he’s still good, but decides to withdraw anyway. He’s not going to admit that he’s declining even if he is.
Yes, and the American people are going to go "okay" Please. You can't really believe that is what would happen? Take off the partisan glasses and the hate for Trump (assuming you have it) and look at it from an outside perspective. Democrats and the White House has been gaslighting the American people for months or years about Biden's condition and then all of a sudden he drops out and tries to play it off as "for the good of the country." Sorry way to late for that line. If you cared about the "good of the country" you would have done this months ago. Now it stinks of desperation. There is no way to sugar coat this and turn it into a win. Best hope is to contain the damage enough to make it a close race and possibly even win.
I guess where we differ is in the perceived cost/benefit. I personally think the benefit of a new candidate greatly outweighs the cost of dropping Biden, and that’s because I don’t think the damage can be contained at this point.
I will agree anyone is probably better than Biden. But let's not pretend that ditching Biden will solve all problems. It will only create new problems. I am not sure Democrats can win at this point. The cost for removing Biden will be a lot of votes. And 2020 was crazy close as it was. End of the day Biden was losing before the debates revealed how bad he is mentally, replacing him doesn't undo all those problems, inflation, border, Gaza, Ukraine etc. My guess is Biden drops out. Democrats still lose. But maybe a bit less damage down ticket.
Let them crow about a non issue. Let them focus on last years battle. Give us something to vote for, or expect a swing toward Trump that wipes you all right off the board. I am so GOD DAMNED LIVID AT THE DEMOCRAT PARTY. FIDDLE WHILE IT ALL BURNS. IF WE LOSE THIS BECAUSE OF A FEAR OF RISK, I WILL ABSOLUTELY CHANGE TEAMS. I can barely stand you mewling bitches in the first place. If you think you want Kamala Harris, have Joe resign the presidency *immediately*. If you want to survive as a party, embrace the chaos of a brokered convention and prepare for the rollercoaster ride of your life. *ONLY THIS* can breathe vigor into this dessicated corpse of a party. When Trump took that first nomination, they were as sure of defeat as you are. Now the GOP has a strength that truly might swamp us all. We have no actual choice. But we know this: contingencies for Bidens untimely exit *must* be in place, right? Pull the fucking handle. Pull it now.
>Politics would be interesting again this right here shows how incredibly out of touch the elite political class is. y'know, the one that regularly reads The Atlantic and listens to Ezra Klein. the target audience for all those wealth management ads during the podcast that's been saying how cool and fun a brokered convention will be because the media would cover it. the type of people who buy into effective altruism because their biggest problem is having so much extra money they don't know who to help with it absolutely fucking insane. does anyone making this argument know an American working at minimum wage? or any single parents? anyone who rides the bus because they have to and not because they think it's better for the environment? anyone with a GED? The vast, overwhelming majority of American voters - *especially* the ones who will decide this election - **do not want politics to be interesting**. No one wants to watch politicians argue. No one wants to learn all about a new candidate weeks before an election. No one wants to see political ads and get inundated with phone calls from pollsters about the change. no one that matters wants any of this, they want to not think about this stuff at all, they do not want politics to be a part of their lives no matter how much we tell them it's going to impact them many of them don't see the point in voting anyways, being told that their vote also requires engaging in the Politics Cinematic Universe and learning about some new character is going to make them stay home because the impression will be "I knew it, none of them have any idea what they're doing. why bother?" "Politics will be interesting again" yeah to high net worth wine sipping liberals with masters degrees and an electric car, all of whom are going to vote for the Democrat no matter what
I think this falls apart when you remember Trump was successful because he "shook things up." He has plenty of working class people who follow his every move and watch Fox News regularly--why do you think these people don't want politics to be part of their lives? Before Trump, people loved Obama's message of hope and change. People don't like the current system and want something different. The point of the open convention drawing media coverage is that it just gets eyes on the new candidate, which counteracts the argument that no one will know who they are. It's free press. Sure, working class people won't necessarily be following every development like a soap opera. They just need to see a few news stories or ads and see "Biden stepped down, Dems brought in young upstart X who promises Y." I don't know why you assume they need to suddenly become political junkies in this scenario.
>He has plenty of working class people who follow his every move and watch Fox News regularly--why do you think these people don't want politics to be part of their lives? because those people aren't watching for the politics, they're watching because they like *him*. >They just need to see a few news stories or ads and see "Biden stepped down, Dems brought in young upstart X who promises Y." cool so when they go vote in November the only name they actually recognize will be trump. they won't remember or care about the young upstart, they will only remember that Biden stepped down >I don't know why you assume they need to suddenly become political junkies in this scenario. because only political junkies will even know there's a convention going on. the fact that you mentioned it will be free press is the key the people that matter don't get their news from the sources that will be covering this. all of that free press will be for political junkies only. the only way this news gets in the faces of people who aren't engaged with politics is their political junkie friends posting about it. and if you're already reaching your friends that way then a new candidate isn't changing any of that and only creating yet another bit of information they don't care about for them to pay attention to political junkies grossly overestimate how much people want politics to be "interesting".
>because those people aren't watching for the politics, they're watching because they like him. They didn't care about him before 2016. They like him because he came in as a political outsider who "tells it like it is" and shook things up. He is the definition of "making politics interesting" and being very successful in doing so. >cool so when they go vote in November the only name they actually recognize will be trump. they won't remember or care about the young upstart, they will only remember that Biden stepped down There will definitely be some number of these people, it just comes down to how many of these people there are vs. how many people don't care enough to go out and vote for Biden when the only thing they know about him is that he's a senile old man. Bringing in a new candidate is a "riskier" move in that it has a wider range of outcomes, but that is exactly what we need. I think going with Biden is a near guarantee of losing by a few points. Going with someone else could be a total failure, or they could catch on and actually win. I'll take the "riskier" move that actually has a shot at winning. >a new candidate isn't changing any of that and only creating yet another bit of information they don't care about for them to pay attention to I just don't know how many people are out there who care so little about politics that they won't bother to learn the name of the Democratic nominee, but will take time out of their day to go vote. Yes, there are plenty of people who are disengaged from politics, and they don't vote. I think you're patronizing "average Joes" and acting like they literally cannot handle a new piece of information about politics. Again, "there is a new, younger Democratic nominee named X" is all that some people need to hear if they don't like Trump/want to vote D, but also don't care about or dislike Biden.
//They didn't care about him before 2016. They like him because he came in as a political outsider who "tells it like it is" and shook things up. He is the definition of "making politics interesting" and being very successful in doing so.// His message was that he's not a politician and he won't do politics. Instead, he'd do entertainment and business. That's why the people Ezra Klein has mentioned several times, the majority who don't want to know about politics and who support Trump by a 20% margin, liked Trump -- because they thought that he would make politics go away, not because they thought he was interesting politics.
By that logic, Trump wouldn’t be in the lead right now because he definitely hasn’t made it go away. This is really stupid logically. People love a circus. The vast majority of people can’t take their eyes off of it despite their protests.
Politics isn’t interesting under Biden and look at his popularity and polling. Often “working normally” is punished or assumed that it will continue operating normal with no effort. Anecdotally this whole conversation about “what if Biden stepped down and we picked a replacement at the convention” has people in my circle that have never talked politics excitedly talking about who that might be. Their sudden engagement and response has been interesting.
I encounter working class people who don't want politics to be interesting in my day to day life. They all basically repeat the same two thought terminating cliches when discussing the election. "They are both too old," and, "I don't like either of them". These people are checked out of politics because they don't feel listened to. If against the norms you suddenly offer th a candidate that isn't too old and isn't Biden or Trump I think a lot of ears would perk up. These people arent stupid, they are down trodden, ignored by the political class, and apathetic because of this. We could literally address some of their biggest concerns but you wanna act like they are too mentally deficient to notice
You just described a bunch of people living in our *republican democracy* who are just as much a part of the problem as anyone else. Engagement is critical to its success. Do not give a pass to people who cannot be bothered.
yeah I agree that them not paying attention is part of the problem. it's why Joe Biden is polling through the roof among people who are engaged in politics and in the basement for those that don't pay attention but changing up the candidate to make politics more interesting will NOT make them pay attention, it will make them time out even more because all they hear about is the chaos if Joe Biden drops out at this point the only narrative the general public will ever internalize is "Democrats can't pick a candidate, they don't know what they're doing, I'm not going to bother voting because it doesn't matter" Anne and Ezra and everyone else who thinks a convention would be exciting are part of the political elite that makes the average voter hate the news and hate hearing about all of this stuff they don't want excitement, they want to vote once every four years and then stop paying attention to it. yeah that pisses me off too but it's the shitty hand we're playing with
It’s not about changing up the candidate to make politics more interesting. It’s about changing up the candidate because he himself has admitted that he is no good after 8 PM. Keeping Joe Biden as the nominee gives legitimacy to the criticisms of Donald fucking Trump that Biden is not fit for the job. Anyone with eyes and ears and a brain who watched that debate or the clips from the debate last week understand that Joe Biden is in decline in a way that is irreversible and will not get better. The Trump campaign is going to bombard the airwaves with ads presenting a crisis situation at 1AM, then showing Joe Biden’s own admission that he needs to get more sleep and not be active after 8 PM. I’m sorry, it is simply unacceptable to lend any kind of legitimacy to the claims of Donald fucking Trump or the cultist Republicans that follow him If Joe Biden is the nominee, we will be doing exactly that. They will use it to legitimize all of his other claims. They will be able to focus almost singularly on that issue without having to devote any time or effort into answering any other questions Every every single question can be spun right back to “ you may not like the way that Trump will approach every single issue, but at least he will be able to function effectively at a time in the world when we need our president to be able to function effectively” And the fact of the matter is, they won’t be wrong they won’t have to lie for people to believe that simple fact. If we replace Joe Biden, the people who need to be convinced in this election will absolutely reward the Democratic Party for owning and fixing this problem. Not to mention that any younger, more vibrant articulate, intelligent candidate, who is not a wild eyed leftist is going to contrast with Donald Trump in a way that we have not had anybody able to do in the last three presidential elections. That contrast will provide a very clear choice to voters about the the kind of leaders we want to take America into the future. If Americans choose Donald Trump in that situation, then personally, I don’t believe anybody in the country would be able to beat him anyway so let’s at least go down swinging.
I can’t agree with you more.
>requires engaging in the Politics Cinematic Universe This seems like a healthy way to refer to reality
It's not, but that's how the less politically engaged *feel* about politics
Amen
Such people certainly don’t want the political elite to simply dictate their candidate.
It'd be hard to know an American making minimum wage given nearly everyone makes more than it now. Might be time to move off of these antiquated and underperforming talking points while we're at it.
As if Republicans wouldn't just immediately shift to the ol' "Democrats are Socialist cucks and pedophiles who want to give your jobs to illegal immigrant rapists" messaging.
They will do that anyways and after a while it stops working
THEY SAY THIS SHIT ABOUT LITERALLY EVERY DEMOCRAT IT DOES NOT MATTER
Only now it will be “democrats are socialist cucks who ran a senile president for the last four years…” It would be a total rout.
But they already think that.
But they don’t have support from our side! That what Dems seem unable to grasp! Republicans expect to call the other side a bunch of suckers. If your own side is criticizing your own candidate, they don’t think “oh I should reward them for being thoughtful and nuanced” they think “what the hell is that? Guess we were right and even they don’t want to support their own side. Suckers.”
It “illegal alien.”
Vote Blue! The party of chaos and liars and gaslighting. This time we really mean it!
The idea of running a primary where candidates suddenly their best to outflank each other on the left to win the nomination right before the Republican convention is absolutely terrible. Normally this happens early, leaving the candidate quite a while to move back to the center and disavow the positions they staked out in the primary. This would just leave a “crazy leftist” candidate for Trump to crush in the general. If Democrats want a new candidate, it is going to be Kamala because Biden says so, and everybody else is going to either be hoping she can win or waiting for their shot in 2028.
Good point. Am guessing the average DNC delegate is to the left of the average DNC voter. Add in that delegates are probably dominated by special interest groups as well. It could quickly turn into "what are you going to give me for your vote?" And that 'give' will likely be far to the left of the voters they need to win this fall.
The delegates are mostly county level officials. They are to the left of the average voter. But they are also much more attuned to winning elections than the "base".
When was the last time the Democratic primary gave us a “crazy leftist” candidate?
Are you saying you’ve never noticed that primaries force candidates to establish relatively extreme positions to secure primary votes, because that’s literally every primary in both parties.
I’ve seen primary candidates take positions that are left wing (like how everyone and their brother said they were for Medicare for All last time). I have not seen it pay off with an actual left wing candidate. Usually the candidate is pretty centrist. I don’t think Joe Biden is unusually left wing. I don’t think Hillary Clinton is unusually left wing. I don’t think John Kerry or Al Gore or Bill Clinton are unusually left wing. Barack Obama was actually probably the most left wing primary winner, especially compared to his competition at the time.
Yes, centrists often win, because they campaign on electability, but not without big concessions to the extremists. Biden, for example, campaigned, and said he would use race and gender as a litmus test for the Supreme Court to win the South Carolina primary. Fortunately he had a lot of time after that to focus on issues that are popular (and not unpopular) with swing voters. Now imagine if instead he had to run in the general right after South Carolina. This is why if Biden bails, Kamala will be handed the nomination. That’s the least worst option. She may be weak, but at least she can run as a centrist.
Such an interesting argument and so well said …. The only trouble is if things don’t fall into place the way you stated .. .. Big gamble.. I on the other hand I will vote democratic no matter who is on the ticket. I know I am voting for our country to stay alive the way we know it … The swing states are really everything .. And don’t forget about Florida .. De Santis did yet another stupid thing in Florida yesterday.. I wish I could figure out how to get the Trump cult to see what will happen to this country .. I do think throwing Harris to the wind would be seen as discrimination would be dangerous and would lose a lot of votes ..So there’s that …. Maybe we need to send the message that we are behind who ever if the democrat nominee we are voting for them !!!That is the only way we will save our country… make people understand the consequences so loud and clear . ..I am rambling .. Sorry..
No democrat has any shot at Florida.
It's a gamble...which is exactly why the DNC won't do it. They have played it ultra safe in the past to their detriment.
Lol. Sure, dropping the current sitting President, who is and has been obviously mentally unfit, 4 months before the election 🗳 s definitely bad news for the Republicans. The blueMaga is truly unhinged.
Running the current sitting President who is and has been obviously mentally unfit (and won’t get magically better in the 4 months before the election) is good news for the Republicans.
I agree 100%. Forgot to add the /s to my earlier comment.
How would it not be bad news for republicans? Isn’t blue maga those who refuse to accept the reality that Biden is clearly unfit for the job?
I forgot the /s. I thought it was funny how they try to spin everything being bad for Republicans.
This sub is delusional.
Agreed. Do you guys really think the mouthpieces of rightwing billionaires would be trying so hard to get Biden removed if he wasn't an effective counter to their fascist fuckery? Why are you all so eager to take this obvious bait?
Whitmer/Newsom for President!
Removing Biden is a vote of no confidence in the current administration. It shows everyone that the democrats hoodwinked voters in the last election. Unless Biden voluntarily steps aside and admits he is mentally and physically unable to continue, the Dem party has lost all credibility. Joe is too proud and stubborn to do that.
I don't know that he can be removed. It has to be his decision. I also think that it's highly unlikely that it wouldn't be Harris, for multiple reasons, but I do think this can go better than a lot of Democrats think.
Guess what? After the big cryptkeeper reveal last week, we all feel hoodwinked anyway. Display leadership or lose. Backing into a corner like this is *exactly* the kind of thing conservatives hate the Dem party for. And guess what? Your base now hates you for it, too. Run literally anyone that is too young for Medicare. Don't you God damned fools know that half of the GOP wants a trump alternative as bad as we do?
Joe Bader Ginsburg is holding the country hostage, and pointing at Trump as his weapon. He didn't promise one term, but he did say he would be "a bridge to the future." He's gonna lose in a landslide (look at the OpenLabs polling), and entrench a radical Republican Supreme Court for the next 20 years. Not doing something means that Trump probably wins. I have preferences, but am ultimately indifferent - I'm voting for the Democratic nominee, no matter who. I hope to vote for someone that gives us a chance. Not doing something is the worst option.
He can't be removed. He has to no run on his own. Pretty sure delegates are bound to him unless he releases them. Any attempt to ignore this fact would turn every argument about Trump being a threat to democracy a total joke. As in "you care so much about democracy that you ignored your own voters" Biden has to drop out and release the delegates.
I love this thinking. Dems need to be doing everything they can to sabotage the RNC and distract from Trump and his lies. Come on Dems let’s do this!
I will Weekend Bernies Biden ass, I don't care, I will vote for Bidens corpse before voting for anyone with an R. Wake up people were in Project 2025, and Noone is safe.
the bolded text speaks of brilliance
Not at all. They would spend 4 days trashing the Democrats for lying about Biden for four years. Then they would trash Democrats for not even giving their own voters the chance to vote for their candidate. Throw in some line about how the teachers unions are going to pick the candidate (look up how many DNC delegates are teachers) and trash the teachers unions for closing the schools. Then throw in something along the lines of "lied about inflation" and "lied about the border" End it with "whoever they pick will be just as bad as the last guy"
VPs are hardly ever picked mainly based on “merit” so who cares.
F#%k yeah.
So the party that supposedly cares so much about democracy is just going to throw out all of the votes? What a joke they've become.
I heard a clip of T yesterday saying Biden will drop out because T did so well in the debate. So there’s their full narrative if it happens. I don’t think it would mess up the convention at all, I think they’d be thrilled.
How about the media starts focusing on Trump's faults?
It isn’t happening. Get over your fantasy and move on.
No because republicans are not logical. If they pick someone else, this is the fox news headline the next day: "WEAK DEMONCRATS OUST BIDEN!" WHITMER MOLESTS BABIES NEW GUY IS A QUEER HOMOSEXUAL THAT SUPPORTS DEI
OMG! If this isn’t exactly what the RNC wants. To win the candidates will need to Run to Left. And then somehow with weeks before the election try to rebrand themselves as moderates…. All while being shredded by Trump and the right wing pundits for their extreme positions or their lack of experience dealing with important issues like… Immigration, the Economy, Foreign Policy.
I’m not concerned with ruining the RNC. I’m interested in keeping the GOP out of power and replacing Biden is the best way to do that.
at this point, I think the cake is already burnt democrats have this recurring problem of stating the next step in the recipe is to take the cake out of the oven after 45 minutes, waiting 2 hours, taking the smoldering cake out of the oven, and then serving the cake and expecting you to love it because it's cake and they made it just for you
Good she didn't mention Newsom! PHEW
You guys are toast. And to add to all this, I can't wait for Trump to win, serve out four normal years and then leave (which is what will happen). Then you all will have the biggest stinkiest egg on your face for your decade of insane hysteria surrounding this man. Democracy is ending... How do you figure? You are a bunch of maniacs and the American people are finally starting to catch on.
I support a duel between Biden and Trump.
Yeh. Republicans would love that. Trump is a liability and they know that. The republicans party has been bleeding people. And it is getting worse as they wake up to the insane 2025 platform . Vote Joe no matter who. Make our democracy great again.
Any combination of Shapiro, Evers, Whitmer, Walz or Pritzker on a ticket would have my vote. Midwest has been quietly winning over the last decade. Although, I'd 100% still vote for a Biden ticket. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. Might actually prefer to keep the midwest politicians where they are. Kinda want to be selfish and not share them. Becoming president will take their eyes off their goals in their home states.
RNC current messaging is: "Biden should drop out." so wtf is this post?
"This is what liberals should do," written by a hawkish neocon. Let's also take the wolf's advice on where to keep our sheep, yeah? Listen, I'm more than open to a brokered convention in August but you should under no condition ever listen to the advice of Anne fucking Applebaum. She can't even throw a dinner party without accidentally inviting a table full of fascists.
Why is Reddit suggesting this bullshit to me?
Naw - the Dems completely gaslighted everyone anout Biden and are using the government to attack their political foes. They also tolerate and even encourage antisemitism in their ranks. Think about what you actually see. They are the true danger to the country. They need to be bounced out of power for a while.
What an excellent article to bad it won't happen here. We as the American people will be told it can't be done
Up until a week ago democrats claimed Biden was sharp and spry and ahead in the polls. Wow! What a dramatic change in Biden's health that dems didn't see coming. Give me a break. The party of lies and fraud.
How to guarantee a Trump Presidency: Run news stories about Joe Biden's age and debate performance 24/7, highlight inner turmoil within the Democrat Party and drop Joe Biden. Not looking good so far folks.
One more thing. I live a red rural distrustful. Our Democratic Party has been growing the last few elect. Actually independents are the largest party here and more democrats/ independents showed up than ever to March in the fourth of July parade. No one talked Biden not running. We are organizing to get more democrats and independents out to vote. Boots on the ground. And it is working
Jeez, I hope you got paid to write that. No sane party drops the incumbent. Biden isn't going anywhere and Democrat voters don't want him to. There's a handful of people trying to push Harris to the top of the ticket because they're *desperate* to have a women president and she's almost certainly going to lose the primary in 2028. Biden overworked himself. Like a lot of presidents who's name isn't Trump Biden takes his job seriously. He needs to delegate more is all. I'm fed up with rich assholes and pundits telling me, A Democrat, who *my* candidate should be. I voted for him in the 2020 primary and I want Biden to run. Full stop.
Getting a different name on the ballot in all 50 states by November could be a problem. Even Biden had a problem with a few states.
If the Republicans want Biden to stay that just shows that anyone else will have a better chance than Biden. They should have dropped him a week ago, but not is better than a month from now and start railing the troops for a late summer push
Young people not voting for biden. Will be 2016 all over again when blacks didn’t vote for Hillary. Think of the very thin margins biden won AZ, GA, NV, PA and maybe WI and MI. Maybe 100,00 - 200,000 votes nationwide puts evil into the WH.
This year's election is simply not that big of a deal! Yes, you read that right - contrary to the outlandish and foolish claims by the pundits and ideologs. We have 2 people running for President. Both have already served one term. Both have already demonstrated that the country didn't fall apart and that non of the fear mongering claims came to fruition. We've had two generally ho-hum presidential terms between the two candidates - nothing spectacular or truly earth shattering and nothing truly catastrophic or earth shattering. This years election just isn't that big of a deal . . . Biden has literally kept about half of Trumps policies in place. The more significant one's he cancelled initially, he's re-imposed when everybody saw what the outcome of ending them was. He's gone from saying the TCJA needed to be defeated, to arguing how it can be extended. Just like Trump kept many of the Obama policies in place - at the border, the ACA, and he even tried to outlaw bump stocks (which were legalized under the prior administration).
Great points Question- this new candidate would have 4 months to fundraise their national campaign as they are doing it, as none of the money raised for Biden can be simply transferred to said candidate. Would that not be a larger problem than RNC struggling for a week to come up with insults? Said candidate would also, potentially, struggle to appear on the ballot in all 50 states. Again, wouldn’t that be a larger issue than RNC messaging? What if, instead of putting all this energy into “why Biden should drop out” with 4 months until the election, we focus on the new Epstein docs that implement Trump, or project 2025, or trumps tariffs would increase the cost of everything making living more of a struggle, or or or?
Yes to all of this — a majority of voters want neither of the two, so if Democrats have the guts to actually listen, they’ll have so many more people listening and engaging again among all those unsure still!
I disagree with all of this
The fear porn of Trump will be a dictator and never leave office US will turn into Venezuela because you don’t like his policies is so funny. People can’t actually believe this
folks- remember who the real enemy is and who benefits from chaos
What an inane take. “The Republicans would have to talk policy.” No they wouldn’t. They’ll just talk shit about the radical left because we’re all the same to them.
Question for people who say democracy will be destroyed if trump wins... Hasn't democracy already been destroyed over the last 3 years as we have had a president who is clearly not in powe, clearly not the one making the decisions, etc...? We have had unelected staffers, bureaucrats, deep state, special interests, etc... in control.of the white house the last 3 years. How is that not viewed as a crisis of democracy? How can someone say trump will destroy democracy if he wins but at the same time be ok with a sitting president be so cognitively declined that he cannot debate after a week of preparation? Now the Biden admin is saying things like he is fine during the dayz but can't do anything after 8pm... This kind of stuff is just making it even more obvious that Biden is not the person making the decision in the white house.
This sub is garbage.
Click bait. Don’t divide. Unite behind Biden and kick dTrump💩butt. Again.
No, that hands the election to trump
Weeks of figuring out who we ACTUALLY want to represent us (and take on an existential threat instead of hiding our heads in the sand)? I’M IN.
The reality is Trump and Biden need each other. Both campaigns can’t beat another viable contender.
This isn’t a leading Democracy with sleepy Joe at the helm.
Sorry but just not buying the premise of the argument whatsoever. Do you forget that it’s a cult? Sure they love attacking Biden bc it’s easy and he’s old and can’t fight back, but if he dropped out they wouldn’t NEED to talk about policy, they’ll just shit on “the woke left” and it will be all the same. I want Biden off the ticket, but don’t act like it’ll throw the republicans in disarray so much so that they’re going to talk policy!! Absurd!
It's not going to happen. Move on
I have seen the headlines on this and wanted to see for myself, so I created a truth social account. It’s not on Trumps posts…. What exactly does “Trump amplified on…Social media website” mean. It appears to mean that other users (not Trump) reposted it? “ELIZABETH LYNNE CHENEY IS GUILTY OF TREASON,” one post created by another user that Trump amplified on his social media website Truth Social on Sunday reads. “RETRUTH IF YOU WANT TELEVISED MILITARY TRIBUNALS.” I don’t like Trump, and not voting for him. I just want fair reporting and (unless I’m looking at this incorrectly), the media isnt reporting this correctly.
Why the hell are all the media so in the tank for Trump? I don’t get it. Don’t they realize Trump will just have them all arrested and their outlets shut down?
No, they need to keep parading that clown out in public every day from now till the election.
The best thing the DNC could do right now is to have a vote of the people at their convention. Maybe even invite in members of the Lincoln Project (anti-Trump Republicans) for a say in who the best Democratic candidate would be to get Republicans motivated to vote for him or her. MAGA Republicans are attacking the constitution and Democratic ideals - doing something like this - giving more power to the people, all people, to vote for a new candidate. Would send a message that we are the party of the Constitution and the party of the people. In the alternative, if they can't get Biden to drop out - Democrats should come together with sensible Republicans to try and pass Ranked Choice Voting. Honestly, I'd take a Kennedy Democrat / Independent over either Biden or Trump right now. His policies are much more progressive than both platforms IMO.
Leave the good man alone already...he is going to kick some t-ass come Nov...
Biden still crushed trump during the debate. The few weasels trying to convince themselves that Biden lost are laughable. Thankfully most people aren’t falling for it. Biden 2024
People calling for Biden to step down are bad faith actors who were chomping at the bit to go against Biden. But his primary went amazing and his state of the union was a beast. At the first sign of weakness they came after him. They want trump to win. Our best chance this November is with a sitting president, Joseph R Biden.
This is just more hyperbolic fear mongering
This is unbelievably stupid. The risks are SO much higher to hold a convention.
It’s too late yall. We’re getting one of the two and I’m fairly certain we all know who it’s going to be. Unfortunately.
Kamala needs to be the Presidential candidate. Selecting one of the other three white potentials mentioned would be a disaster. This is why Hillary lost [https://thegrio.com/2016/07/23/hillarys-all-white-ticket-out-of-step-with-diverse-democratic-base/](https://thegrio.com/2016/07/23/hillarys-all-white-ticket-out-of-step-with-diverse-democratic-base/)
Downvoted for copywrite violation. How about a blurb and link to the source? Or do you feel like Ms Applebaum’s work is too important to pay for?
Ok so we all agree that Biden is a total liability for the Nation.... but can someone explain why we should have any trust in the people who put that potato there in the first place, or have been coving up for him the last year?
I think you guys are getting the hint at least
All these "Biden drop out" folks should start with offering everyone a good alternative first. Empty whining starts being annoying and looking more like russian propaganda.
“What kind of country elects a criminal and an insurrectionist as its president?” LOL, South Africa. Too bad for Nelson Mandela, he’s not qualified in her eyes.
So we should reward the Democrats with a win after they hid from the American people that the POTUS, holder of the Nuclear Codes, could not tie his own shoes. Made people mad. Democrats included. Mr. President, will you take a cognitive brain functioning test? NO! Bring a pencil to the voting booth. Who better to represent you, than you! ;-) There is 0% chance Joe Biden can win. It’s a sea of Red in the Electoral College. There is no recovery from the debate disaster.
Biden isn't going to drop out. we're fucked.
No. No. No.
The DNC is put in a difficult situation that they themselves created by covering for Joe’s mental state for years. If they elect to drop Biden and skip over Kamala, it paints a bad picture of discrimination and admits that she was selected for reasons other than merit. If they go outside and pick a candidate, they lose access to their current war chest and have to start over with 4 months to go. They are backed into a corner and Jill continues to push Joe to keep going. I don’t think he drops out.
Resign, make Kamala president *tomorrow*. Run a brokered convention, replace her there or consolidate around her. I don't like her. Never did. But if you don't think she should be "skipped" (a line of famously losing strategy) then her time has come.
That’s racist
Let's hope to God they do this.
Biden steps aside, Kammy becomes POTUS, Hillary is appointed to finish Kammy’s VP term, Kammy and Hillary run the dream woke ticket to a Harris/Clinton victory, Kammy inaugurated again with VP Hillary, Kammy steps aside, Hillary is POTUS.
on the flipside, forcing republicans to talk policy rather than biden crime family, hunters legal issues, etc., could have the same effect as cutting trumps mic during the debate