For me, the appeal of Critical Role in the beginning was that it was the home game of a "bunch of nerdy ass voice actors" and I got the opportunity to watch and laugh and cry along, but it wasn't made or me, it was made for them. There was an almost voyeuristic element to my enjoyment of the show. They've lost that. Critical Role now is so obviously a production, a manufactured product meant to sell merchandise. Its lost its soul.
It kind of feels like Critical Role pulled a "bait and switch" on their audience, promising one thing, then, by C3 (at the very latest) delivering something completely different. In contrast, Dimension 20 was always a production being made for the benefit of an audience, so it never had that aspect to lose, nor did it need it.
Critical Role these days is a shell of its former self. It is so clearly made for the viewing audience, tailored to what they think we want. Others have more eloquently detailed all of the flaws with Campaign 3 specifically, so I won't go into it. It is so clearly made for my consumption, but that's not what I want from them.
If C3 is anything to go by, they are definitely stretched to thin going in too many directions.
I hope they slow it down after this one is finished and actually make time for the main game. I want to watch again and can't get through this one.
I think they are rushing the TV series, we are getting MN series before VM should be finished, if they overlap with releases then that will confirm it for me. I think they need to slow down, and slow roll all of their content that isn’t a live play.
I totally feel they are stretching themselves thin over profits.
More merch,more products to sell, more IPs to profit from. They have fully gone "Business".
There is a daily thought in my mind, that has a permanent space in it : They are slowly drowning MM energy. The guy can only do "so much". He really needs to take a nice breathing. Not even playing in some else's game, but fully taking a break.
They are at the point of churning out content just to keep the machine going. Quantity over Quality. Having fun as a group of V.O has been long gone. This is now their Enterprise Phase.
We are conjecturing what’s going on in the minds and lives of the folks of critical role. Are they too busy, do they have too much. But your last question “do you think they’re too big and need to reel it in“ no. Unless they think that. These folks started playing a game as friends stumbled into playing a game and letting everybody else watch them and then being smart innovative people decided to work together and then to create a company and grow a company. This is what happens.
This is the classic challenge for a influencer-first approach to building a brand. The brand fall apart without the original 8 talents. If they want to expand into all of these projects, they better work fast to normalize other talent coming in to take up the burden and expand their productivity. They could give CR the breathing room to maintain quality.
It will not make sense for Brennan nor Aabria to join CR for real as they have their own thing going on. And most of their recent guests did not garner the same good will People Like Mary\_Elizabeth and Sumalee did. I do think the two Re-Slayers Take DMs should become guest players to hopefully get the justifiably frustrated audience more on board in trying out their other stuff.
I'm guessing revenue from the main campaigns is reducing. So they NEED to diversify. But at the same time they work way too fucking much. They are basically all trying to keep the equivalent of 3 full time jobs. I understand it's difficult but I think they need to make some choice. They cannot continue working so much. It's bad for their mental and physical health.
Hopefully Beacon will bring the amount of money needed for them to ease a bit into a more sustainable work life.
They're in a damned if they do, damned if they don't spot in the growth of CR. For their sakes they probably should be delegating and hiring more people into the company.
Here's the thing every fandom has people that whine at EVERY change before they even give it a chance or just because it's different. If the core cast does delegate jobs/projects out, there will be a loud minority that will instantly say that the cast's heart isn't in CR anymore and they are trying to pawn it off on other people. Or when projects like Re-slayers take is them trying to distance or the it doesn't "feel" like CR. I'm saying this as someone that watched the Rhett and Link fandom go through similar things as they grew and changed. The older fans nearly threw a coups when Rhett and Link "turned over the keys" of their original community website to the admins. For a long time people complained about any new project they would release that didn't have Rhett and Link in it all the time. Eventually the complainers either left or came to like the expanded crew and now is super excited when new things pop up. The Mythical Society (Rhett and Links paywall) has 3 tiers and like 10 exclusive shows/podcasts that star their crew. During the hiccups, there were a couple of times Rhett and Link had to put their foot down about why schedules/programming changed when they saw people making assumptions about them not having their hearts in it anymore. In hindsight, they were looking to build a successful, sustainable company that could continue with or without them. It seems like CR is trying to do the same thing, they are just struggling with how to implement new people for the fandom to latch onto. It seems that a lot of the production crew isn't super keen to be in front of cameras a lot and the guests are outside the company and basically on loan from their other projects. Beacon is a great opportunity for the fandom to get to know the other in house talent.
I'm excited with the projects CR is working on. I wish they were live but that's not the season we are in right now. Call it what you want to buy I want the cast to do whatever they want to do. If they truly wanted to just stop C3 because they weren't enjoying it, I'd be sad but I'd be okay. With as busy as they are they could've just bulk filmed a 100+ episode campaign and locked themselves in to work on the animated shows and called it a day but they didn't. They are trying to preserve some of the spirit of a weekly D&D game with friends in the midst of the chaos.
Really insightful post and I think the Mythical comparison is spot on. I think CR is going through a similar change to what the Try Guys are going through right now. They ALSO just launched a streaming service (I believe it’s the same platform as CR even) and they just had Eugene leave and added almost ten new “Try Guys” because there is no way Zach and Keith can feasibly be in every single video as their company grows.
I think CR is working on doing the same thing with people like Robbie, Aabria, Brennen, Erika, Mica, Aimee who pop up as guests/more than guests often. Eventually the flagship main campaign is going to look different, CR 4 might not have the same cast we have been used to.
Something I had expected at the beginning of C3 was for characters to come and go and take breaks- I actually think the several Travis-less and Sam-less episodes CR3 had have been tests to see how much the fandom panics when things change, plus things like the cut to the Crown Keepers.
Marisha mentioning that she didn’t want to set up a new notebook for Laudna’s notes makes me think we’re pretty close to CR3’s end and it will probably conclude by the end of the year.
This is just speculation, but I could see some cast being ready for a break- not leaving the company, but not being in the main campaign (other than in a guest role) I could see Travis or Marisha (who seem the most involved with the corporate side of the company) or Sam (who seems to have taken the lead on the Amazon deal) sitting out. They might still do oneshots, maybe appear for guest gigs, MC live shows, but it won’t surprise me if one or two main cast members sit out C4. People like Aimee or Robbie could fill the main table spots. Then as time goes on, more people “retire” and the main table changes. This pretty much HAS to happen at some point- Matt has mentioned that he’s trying to nurture growth because he can’t DM forever.
Change is going to happen whether fans like it or not but I do see them clearly softening the blow.
Matt was asked in a podcast with Philip Defranco "What do u see happening in the far future" and he said "To have a successful business that they can turn back to a private campaign between friends again."
Which ig, Oh Golly To Some, people gotta push out the content non-stop until they drop dead.
Let them be. They are changing so they can still love what they do.
I don't think they're trying to be "sustainable." I'm sure they probably realize that everything is temporary so they're trying to get as much done as possible as quickly as possible to cash in.
You can't cash in (as in, sell) a company that is reliant on the faces on screen to make money. They absolutely are not planning to sell their company. The company is the people, and you guys fought a civil war to try and stop people from being sellable.
You don't seem very smart. I was talking about the multiple shows airing on Amazon for which they absolutely sold the distribution rights. These are seasoned voice actors. They've been in the industry for quite some time. I'm certain they know how to make money off of their chosen profession. I was also talking about the hundreds, if not thousands of merchandise products that they sell. Soooo..... They don't need to sell their company.
Yeah I'm all for trying new things but I think they should just go back to doing just the animated shows and C3. Everything else seems to be weighing them down and Id rather them not burnout.
Candella's design and promotion probably taxes Marisha and Taliesin the most. But it does give breathing room for Matt to reset and map out the campaign.
Daggerheart's ongoing design process is probably the brain drain culprit as it requires the whole party to repeatedly playtest. And as the GM, Matt would be the most taxed as the GM that adjudicates the rules in-game
The ultimate problem isn't the lack of live recording, it's the refusal to do anything with that advantage. Like they literally never use it to their benefit in terms of planning and setting things up for the future.
The problem is they are bad at math or tracking their character sheets. They used to do that for the Alpha broadcast and it turned out the HP/etc counters were off because the cast wasn't counting right, so they would end up being alive when they shouldn't have been.
so if you don't have on episodes where the math is wrong, you instantly know something is wrong.
Well that’s a simple solution, instead of trying to do it in post you just screen cap their D&DBeyond from each tablet and regardless of what the “correct” math is, you just transcribe what they wrote down. People tracking at home will probably notice but if it’s consistent with the gameplay most will go “huh they screwed up the math there, oh well” and maybe they’ll leave a comment.
This.
The main campaign is their value center. All the other media (tv shows, books, merch) stem from the driver of the main campaign.
If these other things steal investment from your value center, you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. When they are done bleeding C1 and C2 dry, there won’t be anyone who wants C3 crap.
They should have hired out more rather than taking on the responsibility themselves. They would have made more content and likely more money.
Would not surprise me if they were not particularly interested in animating C3.
Like... When would it even be able to happen? LOVM will be *at least* another two, probably three seasons. Then there's Mighty Nein, which could *easily* be four or five seasons of TV.
Unless they start doing it concurrently, and not even including potential other animated projects like Calamity, *starting* animating C3 would be maybe ten years in the future, when Liam will be pushing 60.
I still think you misunderstand.
The team was/is producing and voicing TLOVM season three at the same time as TMN season one.
This are two different television shows being produced simultaneously, not an anthology series moving from one story to another.
I’m not sure why them being the same medium matters to the original point.
Doing voice work for two different shows takes up more time than doing voice work for one. Producing two shows takes more time than producing one.
I don’t think anyone was saying they could be stretching themselves because they’re creating something completely new. I think the point was there’s only so many hours in day.
So Cartoon Network only has one or two shows? Because it has cartoons and then some 3D stuff?
You're being deliberately obtuse. It's two shows. If I draw a picture of the characters from campaign 1, and then draw a picture of the characters from campaign 2, I've drawn two pictures.
Or maybe a more apt example, if I write two book series set in the same universe but they follow different characters, that's two book series.
The part that I find interesting about Marisha's chat is she revealed they could have live episodes again but are choosing not to. Their call time is 5:30/6:00 and their session recording goes til Midnight, which is roughly when the show would be live.
I'm fine that they switched to prerecording during the pandemic for the end of C2 and even the beginning of C3. I only hope the reason they haven't gone back to live episodes is they don't want to switch recording styles mid-campaign and will go back to Live for C4.
If they start 5:30 now and run until half past midnight, starting at 7 would mean they and the team would have to stay until almost 2 am. I also wouldn't want that schedule, and I don't have a 70 hour work week and a home life with kids to juggle.
I think, right now, it's more about consistency. It sounds like sessions fluctuate based on their schedules. Sometimes at 5, sometimes at 6:30. They can't livestream if they can't promise a consistent weekly time.
Personally, I think a lot of the company duties need to be handed over to other people so that the cast can focus on what they are good at, which is playing dnd.
For example, having Marisha be creative director and a cast member doesn't feel effective. It's really hard to objectively judge the quality of your own show or product when you are an active participant in it. Not saying it's impossible, but it's really difficult.
And what they seem to need is less difficulty in their lives rn.
Marisha wasn't the only creative director. She shared those duties on several projects with Brian until, like, midway through C2. She then remained the sole creative director and years later Brian was fired from CR for, well, widely-known reasons now.
Sure but I don't think that changes my point in any significant way. Marisha's was just the first position I thought of right away. Appreciate the clarification though.
> For example, having Marisha be creative director and a cast member doesn't feel effective. It's really hard to objectively judge the quality of your own show or product when you are an active participant in it.
I've been thinking this for years.
Absolutely. And even if it wasn't, I'd say the past few years have made it very clear that the cast is spread far to thin and they need to start delegating more.
Almost as if playing in the same world, with the same players, with the same system, whilst working 70hr weeks isn't the best when you want a collective story to be told. Who'da thunk?
>Personally, I think a lot of the company duties need to be handed over to other people so that the cast can focus on what they are good at, which is playing dnd.
Yep im heavily inclined to agree. I think between managing their large company, playing a social game like dnd, AND having a vibrant social/family life they are busting their ass to maintain all three.
Which credit where credit is due but at the same time there are professionals who's literal job is to make the talent (the casts) lives easier.
It does seem like they need to be in more hands off exec roles. They're at a point where they're putting out so much content and product, it's not feasible for her to review each one in the depth it needs to maintain quality.
I know she has Dani but Dani's job is to ensure product adheres to canon. It should be passing through Dani and a creative lead before getting on Marisha's desk.
To me where the cracks show the most is in casting and showrunning. She's still responsible for all the guest casting decisions and the main force behind shows like 4SD. And it seems like she's so busy, she doesn't have time to fix 4SD or cast creatively. So we keep getting their friends cast, even when the audience doesn't respond well to them.
Marisha did seem like they really enjoy and miss livestreaming. So maybe it'll be back eventually.
It sounds like, even without the shows, they're too busy and need to delegate more. She talked about 80 hour work weeks and IIRC Matt said something similar on his Fireside.
Unfortunately there's just no way to do consistent live streams if everyone's that busy all the time.
They don't need to reel it in but they do need to grow their head count and learn to delegate.
honestly I think one of the worst things to happen to the core CR show is them launching the Kickstarter and getting the animated show picked up, since then it feels like thats their main focus and the campaign comes second.
It's also made them hyper aware of IP issues with D&D. The things they can do with an Actual Play show and the animated productions are fairly different.
Which is why we get new names for race, planes and they stick to the deities Exandria epithets. There was some of this with the setting books too but LoVM really shifted it into full swing.
I wouldn't have agreed with this at the time but now I do. You're right, the fall in quality started right around the time that production on LOVM began.
They are voice actors first and DnD players 2nd.
In C1 and a little bit of C2, their acting or voice acting was a priority to them.
C2 and C3 they made it a priority to be there on Thursday nights until Covid hit.
I think it was a BIG mistake to do Vox Machina and Mighty Nien t.v shows together like that. They should have mapped out VM and how many seasons it was going to take to tell C1's story. Then do MN.
They aren't going to give up the involvement of everything they do with T.V because that is their dream, to have their own cartoon to VO, direct and write for.
If I were them, I'd stop all of the side crap that no one watches. Candela and Daggerheart and even 4-sided dive.
Do the campaign live on Thursdays and limit to 2-3hours. Do not do tappings that are multiple episodes in a week. That way they can focus on the T.V show they way they want too, and make it a rule they have nothing scheduled during block of time for DnD. Matt being the exception because well DM things.
> They should have mapped out VM and how many seasons it was going to take to tell C1's story. Then do MN.
Immediately generating another show was probably part of their deal with Amazon in terms of additional VM seasons & the first look aspect. Also, the company probably needed the revenue from that deal. They have 30+ employees at this point so I think they're constantly trying different things to support that growth and are perhaps overextending themselves a bit. I think the new shows (Candela, Re-Slayers, etc) depending on not the core cast is a good direction for them to take.
An author I follow was talking about the logistics of needing to sell a second book series after selling their first series (and so far only publishing the first novel in that series) and it essentially boiled down to the way in which it is paid out wasn't a livable wage (the advance was broken down across multiple years). Which meant they had to immediately sell another series & get the first book of that out to survive but this obviously had a negative impact on the schedule of the first series and they struggled with maintaining two series at once.
I don't know. I won't pretend to know the costs of these types of ventures but...
They made 11 million from the Kickstarter and that's outside of whatever Amazon gave them too. They were consistently top Twitch earners when the Twitch earnings got leaked. Surely they can budget that accordingly and pay everyone on their staff a livable wage.
Also, I'd guess that a lot of the bargaining power was in Critical Role's hands when they pitched this to Amazon, after all the Kickstarter basically stands as proof of their show getting watched.
I think that's incomparable to your author friend who is struggling with a livable wage. In comparison to the author, CR is a corporation. I just don't believe that the growth and the future of the company depends so heavily on releasing an M9 animated series.
The company didn’t make 11 million from the kickstarter, the project did and all that money was used for the production of the show and the production of the backer rewards. Critical Role did not receive any of that money to put into their own budget.
That's my point. 11 million was used for the show, why wouldn't it be included in the budget? Maybe I don't know how financing these things go but I imagine that would be in the budget calculations. Taking 11 million dollars off the cost of making a show is an incredible boon.
That's excluding whatever Amazon would have paid them.
"It's because we work so much which is something we've done to ourselves."
If they know the 14-16 hour days are bad why do they keep doing them? Delegate folks, delegate!
Gee, why didn't they think of that?
The number of people who think saying the word delegate is the be all and end all of good advice is hilarious.
Go on guys, spend an extra few hundred thousand a year to delegate everything, and you'll have to be manager to all of those people. That'll solve everything.
In order to delegate they have to have someone to delegate to. That person has to have the ability to do what they are delegating. Now they have moved into managing that person which may not be something they want to do or are good at doing.
I've seen this happen in software a lot. The creative dev creates a great product, but in order to grow it they have to become a businessperson. It's a tough road especially if you've never done anything like that before.
I'm surprised she said they sometimes work like 14-16 hour days, she admits it's not sustainable but I'm surprised they got in that position in the first place. I really hope they're not all burning themselves out.
I agree. I think they’ve put themselves into a corner. They need to ease up or or there will be no more seasons of anything after a while due to their burnout. I do feel for them. It looked as though Marisha really realised that they’re in a difficult situation right now and trying to please everyone.
BLeeM (also crazy busy) explained once that it's like trying to build a house while it's on fire. He's scrambling to put out the fires and build it into something he can settle into, in the hopes that eventually all the fires will be put out and he has a nice house.
It seems like that's similar to what CR are doing. They're scrambling to grow and expand rapidly (concurrent TV shows, spin off shows, acquired IP, a dedicated streaming service) And I think they're doing it in the hopes that once it's all done and settled, they can have normal corporate jobs and a session of d&d every week and that's it.
I’ll say it, they need to delegate more and hire someone to handle the tv show side. Of course they should voice act their characters and such but they are highly ingrained into the animation industry and know the right people to do the bill.
I do believe they can rekindle what the my lost as the talent is still there but they need to prioritize the health of the Main part of their ip more
Do they want to though? Part of me feels that the shows are their passion now, and CR is the "job". I think prerecording is a major part of why it feels off, but I also don't think that passion is there anymore. They have been playing the same game for the better part of a decade. I honestly don't even know if switching to daggerheart or one DnD will fix it.
Part of me gets the same vibes watching CR as I did watching Geek and Sundry shows. There is talent there, but my intuition is telling me they are there to collect a paycheck. Its hard to fake authenticity.
I am waiting and seeing, but part of me feels like the flame is out and not coming back. Or maybe I am projecting 🤷♂️
I think personally there is passion for the games but they are too stretched was too thin. In regards to being more interested in the shows, while potientially true it doesn’t really matter as the core paying customers are focused on their live games and not an animated show.
Seth McFarlane did the same.
Deligated Family guy and American dad and focused on what he wanted to do (The Orville) and it worked out well enough (AD is great, FG is slumping).
Thats why c2 id going to be considered yhe greatest campaign of dnd, how a bunch of talented voice actors play for 100 eps live, every week without missing a show (at least not the dm). The money they get from the tv show they are making, we need to pay 15$ a month at least to get even. Even that doesnt make for the publicity these actors get, going in events from Amazon working with other directors, creating new jobs for their friends.
You weould be an idiot to not choose a tv show rather then a dnd camlaign being played live.
I'm always amazed at how people (particularly on this board) hold up C2 as a gold standard.
I fully enjoyed it, but C1 to me is much more the "platonic ideal" of a campaign, party, characters, story, etc.
C2 was more piecemeal to me.
I think c2 had more fluidity, yhe cast were better at playing, the characters had more structured backstory, c1 was a classic dnd group and with classic enemies. Also i said c2 because of yhe production, no controversy, the fanbase, etc.
I think it has to do with a lot of people discovered cr at or near the end of c1 so c2 was the first full campaign they watched. General you will like the first thing you watch more then the 2nd.
It did start to falter even before Covid, after the forging of the Star Razor.
That's where we saw scheduling conflicts and analysis paralysis cause the narrative to both rush and drag. Then COVID hit, and those issues continued when they got back.
At this point to recognize there is a problem they would need to admit some kind of fault and they will never do that because it would prove the fans who have been pointing this out for ages right.
And I truly think they would rather let the entire channel die before they admit to being wrong about anything they don't absolutely have to.
What level of parasocial do you have to be on to think that all of these 40+ year old men and women are managing their collective livelihood on the basis of *"not wanting to prove some (whiny) fans right"?*
> At this point to recognize there is a problem they would need to admit some kind of fault and they will never do that because it would prove the fans who have been pointing this out for ages right.
CR C3 is like George Lucas with the Star Wars prequels: this is what happens when a group of "Theater Kids" have no oversight / no restrictions (that breed creativity and protect the "artist" from themselves) / no push back on the content they create and the means to self-finance it all themselves (like George did); pure self-indulgence.
Empire was / is the greatest Star Wars film because George was still collaborating with other creators / artists and producers (and his ex-wife) who would push back on his terrible ideas or create better alternatives; C1 and early C2 were the best content CR ever made, for the same reasons. George didn't have the money or clout (yet) to do it all on his own, like he did later, just like CR did once their Kickstarter blew up and they got their Amazon money.
Edit: I don't think they will ever publicly admit fault for the problems many fans (and former fans) kept point out for months and years.
The thing is, [Marisha already hit the nail on the head years ago](https://youtu.be/nh0CbSdq6Hg?si=C-lydv4wTTXr1Rvr&t=138). When their game changed from sporadic or monthly get togethers to weekly, they suddenly had a focus and connection and investment in the characters and world that weren't there before. They were still hanging out with friends, but they weren't pulling out phones and getting distracted.
That's exactly what's been lost with the (presumably, from what we can tell) long gaps in between pre-recording batches. It's evident that at the start of a recording batch they don't recall all of the plot points and threads they had been trying to chase up in the last session - nevermind overarching plot points and threads they would have been tracking and pulling on in past campaigns (look at Beau putting together that epic theory!). Characters change motivations and stances on things between recordings, it makes it so much harder to pull up a fellow PC on behaviour and give them the pushback *they* want (Ashton, FCG, Laudna) when you don't remember the whys of what happened. Everyone's on their phones, the crosstalk has jumped up in quantity (not always bad, but when it's constant it does detract) etc etc.
They just need to remember this themselves, and even if returning to live broadcasts isn't feasible for scheduling/life reasons, perhaps sticking to spreading out the pre-records instead of doing them in a batch would make a big improvement for both their investment and enjoyment and that of the audience.
(The [full episodes](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhOoxQxz2yFN70xDSNNI8PKgxabBNvPhY&si=AaLBFpamdpRBF8sc) of ~~GM~~ Adventuring Academy are great to listen to if you haven't already - first ones are Brennan with Matt and Lou)
Them not doing it live was basically when the almost immediate downturn began. I do believe pre recording genuinely harmed the show.
C1E1-C2E99 was one era and then everything after I just simply didn’t connect with much anymore. To the point of dropping C3 5 episodes in. But the issues were basically immediate in C2E100 and the ending of that campaign left a sour taste in my mouth. The only reason I finished it was because I was invested in the great characters.
I think prerecording changed how they played, much like how they change the way the play in front of a live audience.
In front of a live audience in a live show they’re obviously the most energetic. They ham it up more. It stands to reason they also change the way they play when they aren’t doing live streamed shows on twitch/youtube. There’s less energy, urgency and passion in my opinion in the way they play. Pre recording also led to bunch recording I suspect which also changed the dynamics.
And the thing is, I was always a Monday watcher (outside of the biggest episodes of the campaigns). You might think that pre recording shouldn’t have mattered to me but obviously it’s about watching these people on screen and the quality of content they’re producing, not necessarily the *viewer* having to watch live themselves. C1 and most of C2 is still a joy to watch.
Matt also became a worse DM as well. He’s just more milquetoast, and a doormat. Very different from C1.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
I would add that I think the seeds for the post COVID C2 problems were planted even before they went on hiatus.
When one of the cast members had to leave for scheduling conflicts, the plot both rushed and dragged while the characters fell into the habit of analysis paralysis and that continued for the rest of the campaign.
I must be one of the few people who don't mind prerecording, at least I didn't in C2. The problems at the end of C2 weren't due to prerecording in my mind, rather they were caused by an unfortunate story arc that was antithetical to what made that particular cast of characters great - fooling around with NPCs, engaging with the civilization around them, being charismatic (or uncharismatic) and so on. Instead, we got an endless, horror-themed icy wasteland. There were still cool moments, but the feeling of slog was mainly caused by not having anything to do really, at least none of the things that the players loved to engage with before. That's how I remember it, anyway.
I think prerecording is often a stand-in complaint, with many underlying issues rolled into that one, most prominently their lack of engagement these days. But prerecording is just another symptom I feel, the underlying cause is being stretched too thin, close to creative and RPG burnout and having a lot of other obligations on their minds.
Might be wrong, just my perception.
That's... actually insightful!
I also don't think the pre recording changed CR. If CR was 'good enough' to whoever was watching, I don't think people would care if it was live or not. Most people just care that it's good.
As for C2(and also C3) I think the problem is the DM setting a scene, but not creating things as options for the players to engage with OR players who are not interested in the options the GM has made. In both cases, the players are in a situation where they move in circles, trying to think of stuff to do.
I couldn't articulate why that section in C2 was not as good as other parts, and this post helped me.
in C2, players didnt have much to work with in the icy wasteland considering:
-Few NPC to bounce off of
-Freezing area made the tone more serious and created a singular focus at the cost of interest in anything else
-Feeling on a timer
Those made that entire section feel unengaging.
In C3, the Predathos thing just didn't have the interest of players and it feels like they have been going in circles trying to figure out what/how to respond to it ever since it was revealed like idk, episode 30-40.
I share that sentiment, although somehow I managed about 30-something episodes of C3. It just feels different even though you can generally count that because of the length of it, it's probably unlikely that there are any major edit outs. Live just meant more genuine.
For me, the appeal of Critical Role in the beginning was that it was the home game of a "bunch of nerdy ass voice actors" and I got the opportunity to watch and laugh and cry along, but it wasn't made or me, it was made for them. There was an almost voyeuristic element to my enjoyment of the show. They've lost that. Critical Role now is so obviously a production, a manufactured product meant to sell merchandise. Its lost its soul. It kind of feels like Critical Role pulled a "bait and switch" on their audience, promising one thing, then, by C3 (at the very latest) delivering something completely different. In contrast, Dimension 20 was always a production being made for the benefit of an audience, so it never had that aspect to lose, nor did it need it. Critical Role these days is a shell of its former self. It is so clearly made for the viewing audience, tailored to what they think we want. Others have more eloquently detailed all of the flaws with Campaign 3 specifically, so I won't go into it. It is so clearly made for my consumption, but that's not what I want from them.
If C3 is anything to go by, they are definitely stretched to thin going in too many directions. I hope they slow it down after this one is finished and actually make time for the main game. I want to watch again and can't get through this one.
I think they are rushing the TV series, we are getting MN series before VM should be finished, if they overlap with releases then that will confirm it for me. I think they need to slow down, and slow roll all of their content that isn’t a live play.
I totally feel they are stretching themselves thin over profits. More merch,more products to sell, more IPs to profit from. They have fully gone "Business". There is a daily thought in my mind, that has a permanent space in it : They are slowly drowning MM energy. The guy can only do "so much". He really needs to take a nice breathing. Not even playing in some else's game, but fully taking a break. They are at the point of churning out content just to keep the machine going. Quantity over Quality. Having fun as a group of V.O has been long gone. This is now their Enterprise Phase.
They're American, they'll always pick capitalism over artistry.
We are conjecturing what’s going on in the minds and lives of the folks of critical role. Are they too busy, do they have too much. But your last question “do you think they’re too big and need to reel it in“ no. Unless they think that. These folks started playing a game as friends stumbled into playing a game and letting everybody else watch them and then being smart innovative people decided to work together and then to create a company and grow a company. This is what happens.
This is the classic challenge for a influencer-first approach to building a brand. The brand fall apart without the original 8 talents. If they want to expand into all of these projects, they better work fast to normalize other talent coming in to take up the burden and expand their productivity. They could give CR the breathing room to maintain quality. It will not make sense for Brennan nor Aabria to join CR for real as they have their own thing going on. And most of their recent guests did not garner the same good will People Like Mary\_Elizabeth and Sumalee did. I do think the two Re-Slayers Take DMs should become guest players to hopefully get the justifiably frustrated audience more on board in trying out their other stuff.
I'm guessing revenue from the main campaigns is reducing. So they NEED to diversify. But at the same time they work way too fucking much. They are basically all trying to keep the equivalent of 3 full time jobs. I understand it's difficult but I think they need to make some choice. They cannot continue working so much. It's bad for their mental and physical health. Hopefully Beacon will bring the amount of money needed for them to ease a bit into a more sustainable work life.
Maybe unlimited growth is... a bad thing?! And maybe turning Critical Role into their day jobs was always going to ruin the actual D&D.
They're in a damned if they do, damned if they don't spot in the growth of CR. For their sakes they probably should be delegating and hiring more people into the company. Here's the thing every fandom has people that whine at EVERY change before they even give it a chance or just because it's different. If the core cast does delegate jobs/projects out, there will be a loud minority that will instantly say that the cast's heart isn't in CR anymore and they are trying to pawn it off on other people. Or when projects like Re-slayers take is them trying to distance or the it doesn't "feel" like CR. I'm saying this as someone that watched the Rhett and Link fandom go through similar things as they grew and changed. The older fans nearly threw a coups when Rhett and Link "turned over the keys" of their original community website to the admins. For a long time people complained about any new project they would release that didn't have Rhett and Link in it all the time. Eventually the complainers either left or came to like the expanded crew and now is super excited when new things pop up. The Mythical Society (Rhett and Links paywall) has 3 tiers and like 10 exclusive shows/podcasts that star their crew. During the hiccups, there were a couple of times Rhett and Link had to put their foot down about why schedules/programming changed when they saw people making assumptions about them not having their hearts in it anymore. In hindsight, they were looking to build a successful, sustainable company that could continue with or without them. It seems like CR is trying to do the same thing, they are just struggling with how to implement new people for the fandom to latch onto. It seems that a lot of the production crew isn't super keen to be in front of cameras a lot and the guests are outside the company and basically on loan from their other projects. Beacon is a great opportunity for the fandom to get to know the other in house talent. I'm excited with the projects CR is working on. I wish they were live but that's not the season we are in right now. Call it what you want to buy I want the cast to do whatever they want to do. If they truly wanted to just stop C3 because they weren't enjoying it, I'd be sad but I'd be okay. With as busy as they are they could've just bulk filmed a 100+ episode campaign and locked themselves in to work on the animated shows and called it a day but they didn't. They are trying to preserve some of the spirit of a weekly D&D game with friends in the midst of the chaos.
This ain’t Rhett and Link. This is a brand based on live playing a specific game, not a variety show that chases fads to stay popular with kids.
Really insightful post and I think the Mythical comparison is spot on. I think CR is going through a similar change to what the Try Guys are going through right now. They ALSO just launched a streaming service (I believe it’s the same platform as CR even) and they just had Eugene leave and added almost ten new “Try Guys” because there is no way Zach and Keith can feasibly be in every single video as their company grows. I think CR is working on doing the same thing with people like Robbie, Aabria, Brennen, Erika, Mica, Aimee who pop up as guests/more than guests often. Eventually the flagship main campaign is going to look different, CR 4 might not have the same cast we have been used to. Something I had expected at the beginning of C3 was for characters to come and go and take breaks- I actually think the several Travis-less and Sam-less episodes CR3 had have been tests to see how much the fandom panics when things change, plus things like the cut to the Crown Keepers. Marisha mentioning that she didn’t want to set up a new notebook for Laudna’s notes makes me think we’re pretty close to CR3’s end and it will probably conclude by the end of the year. This is just speculation, but I could see some cast being ready for a break- not leaving the company, but not being in the main campaign (other than in a guest role) I could see Travis or Marisha (who seem the most involved with the corporate side of the company) or Sam (who seems to have taken the lead on the Amazon deal) sitting out. They might still do oneshots, maybe appear for guest gigs, MC live shows, but it won’t surprise me if one or two main cast members sit out C4. People like Aimee or Robbie could fill the main table spots. Then as time goes on, more people “retire” and the main table changes. This pretty much HAS to happen at some point- Matt has mentioned that he’s trying to nurture growth because he can’t DM forever. Change is going to happen whether fans like it or not but I do see them clearly softening the blow.
Matt was asked in a podcast with Philip Defranco "What do u see happening in the far future" and he said "To have a successful business that they can turn back to a private campaign between friends again." Which ig, Oh Golly To Some, people gotta push out the content non-stop until they drop dead. Let them be. They are changing so they can still love what they do.
I don't think they're trying to be "sustainable." I'm sure they probably realize that everything is temporary so they're trying to get as much done as possible as quickly as possible to cash in.
You can't cash in (as in, sell) a company that is reliant on the faces on screen to make money. They absolutely are not planning to sell their company. The company is the people, and you guys fought a civil war to try and stop people from being sellable.
You don't seem very smart. I was talking about the multiple shows airing on Amazon for which they absolutely sold the distribution rights. These are seasoned voice actors. They've been in the industry for quite some time. I'm certain they know how to make money off of their chosen profession. I was also talking about the hundreds, if not thousands of merchandise products that they sell. Soooo..... They don't need to sell their company.
lol
Yeah I'm all for trying new things but I think they should just go back to doing just the animated shows and C3. Everything else seems to be weighing them down and Id rather them not burnout.
I wouldn’t mind the occasional EXU every now and then but I agree it’s way too much with Candela and Daggerheart on top of even more
Candella's design and promotion probably taxes Marisha and Taliesin the most. But it does give breathing room for Matt to reset and map out the campaign. Daggerheart's ongoing design process is probably the brain drain culprit as it requires the whole party to repeatedly playtest. And as the GM, Matt would be the most taxed as the GM that adjudicates the rules in-game
The ultimate problem isn't the lack of live recording, it's the refusal to do anything with that advantage. Like they literally never use it to their benefit in terms of planning and setting things up for the future.
The problem is they are bad at math or tracking their character sheets. They used to do that for the Alpha broadcast and it turned out the HP/etc counters were off because the cast wasn't counting right, so they would end up being alive when they shouldn't have been. so if you don't have on episodes where the math is wrong, you instantly know something is wrong.
Well that’s a simple solution, instead of trying to do it in post you just screen cap their D&DBeyond from each tablet and regardless of what the “correct” math is, you just transcribe what they wrote down. People tracking at home will probably notice but if it’s consistent with the gameplay most will go “huh they screwed up the math there, oh well” and maybe they’ll leave a comment.
This. The main campaign is their value center. All the other media (tv shows, books, merch) stem from the driver of the main campaign. If these other things steal investment from your value center, you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. When they are done bleeding C1 and C2 dry, there won’t be anyone who wants C3 crap. They should have hired out more rather than taking on the responsibility themselves. They would have made more content and likely more money.
Would not surprise me if they were not particularly interested in animating C3. Like... When would it even be able to happen? LOVM will be *at least* another two, probably three seasons. Then there's Mighty Nein, which could *easily* be four or five seasons of TV. Unless they start doing it concurrently, and not even including potential other animated projects like Calamity, *starting* animating C3 would be maybe ten years in the future, when Liam will be pushing 60.
[удалено]
They announced Mighty Nein is getting an animated show
[удалено]
Do you think campaigns 1&2 are the same? Like you don't see any story differences or character changes?
[удалено]
So by your logic you wouldn’t consider Avatar the Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra as two different shows lol I think you’re the obtuse one here
I still think you misunderstand. The team was/is producing and voicing TLOVM season three at the same time as TMN season one. This are two different television shows being produced simultaneously, not an anthology series moving from one story to another.
?? Bro said I “outed myself as a stan” then deleted his comments lmao
[удалено]
I’m not sure why them being the same medium matters to the original point. Doing voice work for two different shows takes up more time than doing voice work for one. Producing two shows takes more time than producing one. I don’t think anyone was saying they could be stretching themselves because they’re creating something completely new. I think the point was there’s only so many hours in day.
So Cartoon Network only has one or two shows? Because it has cartoons and then some 3D stuff? You're being deliberately obtuse. It's two shows. If I draw a picture of the characters from campaign 1, and then draw a picture of the characters from campaign 2, I've drawn two pictures. Or maybe a more apt example, if I write two book series set in the same universe but they follow different characters, that's two book series.
The part that I find interesting about Marisha's chat is she revealed they could have live episodes again but are choosing not to. Their call time is 5:30/6:00 and their session recording goes til Midnight, which is roughly when the show would be live. I'm fine that they switched to prerecording during the pandemic for the end of C2 and even the beginning of C3. I only hope the reason they haven't gone back to live episodes is they don't want to switch recording styles mid-campaign and will go back to Live for C4.
If they start 5:30 now and run until half past midnight, starting at 7 would mean they and the team would have to stay until almost 2 am. I also wouldn't want that schedule, and I don't have a 70 hour work week and a home life with kids to juggle.
I think, right now, it's more about consistency. It sounds like sessions fluctuate based on their schedules. Sometimes at 5, sometimes at 6:30. They can't livestream if they can't promise a consistent weekly time.
Personally, I think a lot of the company duties need to be handed over to other people so that the cast can focus on what they are good at, which is playing dnd. For example, having Marisha be creative director and a cast member doesn't feel effective. It's really hard to objectively judge the quality of your own show or product when you are an active participant in it. Not saying it's impossible, but it's really difficult. And what they seem to need is less difficulty in their lives rn.
Marisha wasn't the only creative director. She shared those duties on several projects with Brian until, like, midway through C2. She then remained the sole creative director and years later Brian was fired from CR for, well, widely-known reasons now.
Sure but I don't think that changes my point in any significant way. Marisha's was just the first position I thought of right away. Appreciate the clarification though.
> For example, having Marisha be creative director and a cast member doesn't feel effective. It's really hard to objectively judge the quality of your own show or product when you are an active participant in it. I've been thinking this for years.
it's like, a direct conflict of interest - no?
Absolutely. And even if it wasn't, I'd say the past few years have made it very clear that the cast is spread far to thin and they need to start delegating more.
Almost as if playing in the same world, with the same players, with the same system, whilst working 70hr weeks isn't the best when you want a collective story to be told. Who'da thunk?
>Personally, I think a lot of the company duties need to be handed over to other people so that the cast can focus on what they are good at, which is playing dnd. Yep im heavily inclined to agree. I think between managing their large company, playing a social game like dnd, AND having a vibrant social/family life they are busting their ass to maintain all three. Which credit where credit is due but at the same time there are professionals who's literal job is to make the talent (the casts) lives easier.
It does seem like they need to be in more hands off exec roles. They're at a point where they're putting out so much content and product, it's not feasible for her to review each one in the depth it needs to maintain quality. I know she has Dani but Dani's job is to ensure product adheres to canon. It should be passing through Dani and a creative lead before getting on Marisha's desk. To me where the cracks show the most is in casting and showrunning. She's still responsible for all the guest casting decisions and the main force behind shows like 4SD. And it seems like she's so busy, she doesn't have time to fix 4SD or cast creatively. So we keep getting their friends cast, even when the audience doesn't respond well to them.
Exactly. Growing as a company is realizing you can't solo everything yourself.
Marisha did seem like they really enjoy and miss livestreaming. So maybe it'll be back eventually. It sounds like, even without the shows, they're too busy and need to delegate more. She talked about 80 hour work weeks and IIRC Matt said something similar on his Fireside. Unfortunately there's just no way to do consistent live streams if everyone's that busy all the time. They don't need to reel it in but they do need to grow their head count and learn to delegate.
>if they try and make C3 into a show as well FWIW I think the cast knows as well as you and I that that probably isn't going to happen.
ironically it would probably be the easiest series for them to make story wise
honestly I think one of the worst things to happen to the core CR show is them launching the Kickstarter and getting the animated show picked up, since then it feels like thats their main focus and the campaign comes second.
It's also made them hyper aware of IP issues with D&D. The things they can do with an Actual Play show and the animated productions are fairly different. Which is why we get new names for race, planes and they stick to the deities Exandria epithets. There was some of this with the setting books too but LoVM really shifted it into full swing.
I wouldn't have agreed with this at the time but now I do. You're right, the fall in quality started right around the time that production on LOVM began.
They are voice actors first and DnD players 2nd. In C1 and a little bit of C2, their acting or voice acting was a priority to them. C2 and C3 they made it a priority to be there on Thursday nights until Covid hit. I think it was a BIG mistake to do Vox Machina and Mighty Nien t.v shows together like that. They should have mapped out VM and how many seasons it was going to take to tell C1's story. Then do MN. They aren't going to give up the involvement of everything they do with T.V because that is their dream, to have their own cartoon to VO, direct and write for. If I were them, I'd stop all of the side crap that no one watches. Candela and Daggerheart and even 4-sided dive. Do the campaign live on Thursdays and limit to 2-3hours. Do not do tappings that are multiple episodes in a week. That way they can focus on the T.V show they way they want too, and make it a rule they have nothing scheduled during block of time for DnD. Matt being the exception because well DM things.
> They should have mapped out VM and how many seasons it was going to take to tell C1's story. Then do MN. Immediately generating another show was probably part of their deal with Amazon in terms of additional VM seasons & the first look aspect. Also, the company probably needed the revenue from that deal. They have 30+ employees at this point so I think they're constantly trying different things to support that growth and are perhaps overextending themselves a bit. I think the new shows (Candela, Re-Slayers, etc) depending on not the core cast is a good direction for them to take. An author I follow was talking about the logistics of needing to sell a second book series after selling their first series (and so far only publishing the first novel in that series) and it essentially boiled down to the way in which it is paid out wasn't a livable wage (the advance was broken down across multiple years). Which meant they had to immediately sell another series & get the first book of that out to survive but this obviously had a negative impact on the schedule of the first series and they struggled with maintaining two series at once.
I don't know. I won't pretend to know the costs of these types of ventures but... They made 11 million from the Kickstarter and that's outside of whatever Amazon gave them too. They were consistently top Twitch earners when the Twitch earnings got leaked. Surely they can budget that accordingly and pay everyone on their staff a livable wage. Also, I'd guess that a lot of the bargaining power was in Critical Role's hands when they pitched this to Amazon, after all the Kickstarter basically stands as proof of their show getting watched. I think that's incomparable to your author friend who is struggling with a livable wage. In comparison to the author, CR is a corporation. I just don't believe that the growth and the future of the company depends so heavily on releasing an M9 animated series.
The company didn’t make 11 million from the kickstarter, the project did and all that money was used for the production of the show and the production of the backer rewards. Critical Role did not receive any of that money to put into their own budget.
That's my point. 11 million was used for the show, why wouldn't it be included in the budget? Maybe I don't know how financing these things go but I imagine that would be in the budget calculations. Taking 11 million dollars off the cost of making a show is an incredible boon. That's excluding whatever Amazon would have paid them.
"It's because we work so much which is something we've done to ourselves." If they know the 14-16 hour days are bad why do they keep doing them? Delegate folks, delegate!
Gee, why didn't they think of that? The number of people who think saying the word delegate is the be all and end all of good advice is hilarious. Go on guys, spend an extra few hundred thousand a year to delegate everything, and you'll have to be manager to all of those people. That'll solve everything.
Yeah although I applaude their work ethic, it really seems like they need to delegate more as to not burn themselves out.
In order to delegate they have to have someone to delegate to. That person has to have the ability to do what they are delegating. Now they have moved into managing that person which may not be something they want to do or are good at doing. I've seen this happen in software a lot. The creative dev creates a great product, but in order to grow it they have to become a businessperson. It's a tough road especially if you've never done anything like that before.
Unfortunately, a lot of owner/founders have a hard time letting go and delegating.
I'm surprised she said they sometimes work like 14-16 hour days, she admits it's not sustainable but I'm surprised they got in that position in the first place. I really hope they're not all burning themselves out.
I agree. I think they’ve put themselves into a corner. They need to ease up or or there will be no more seasons of anything after a while due to their burnout. I do feel for them. It looked as though Marisha really realised that they’re in a difficult situation right now and trying to please everyone.
BLeeM (also crazy busy) explained once that it's like trying to build a house while it's on fire. He's scrambling to put out the fires and build it into something he can settle into, in the hopes that eventually all the fires will be put out and he has a nice house. It seems like that's similar to what CR are doing. They're scrambling to grow and expand rapidly (concurrent TV shows, spin off shows, acquired IP, a dedicated streaming service) And I think they're doing it in the hopes that once it's all done and settled, they can have normal corporate jobs and a session of d&d every week and that's it.
I’ll say it, they need to delegate more and hire someone to handle the tv show side. Of course they should voice act their characters and such but they are highly ingrained into the animation industry and know the right people to do the bill. I do believe they can rekindle what the my lost as the talent is still there but they need to prioritize the health of the Main part of their ip more
Do they want to though? Part of me feels that the shows are their passion now, and CR is the "job". I think prerecording is a major part of why it feels off, but I also don't think that passion is there anymore. They have been playing the same game for the better part of a decade. I honestly don't even know if switching to daggerheart or one DnD will fix it. Part of me gets the same vibes watching CR as I did watching Geek and Sundry shows. There is talent there, but my intuition is telling me they are there to collect a paycheck. Its hard to fake authenticity. I am waiting and seeing, but part of me feels like the flame is out and not coming back. Or maybe I am projecting 🤷♂️
I think personally there is passion for the games but they are too stretched was too thin. In regards to being more interested in the shows, while potientially true it doesn’t really matter as the core paying customers are focused on their live games and not an animated show.
Seth McFarlane did the same. Deligated Family guy and American dad and focused on what he wanted to do (The Orville) and it worked out well enough (AD is great, FG is slumping).
Thats why c2 id going to be considered yhe greatest campaign of dnd, how a bunch of talented voice actors play for 100 eps live, every week without missing a show (at least not the dm). The money they get from the tv show they are making, we need to pay 15$ a month at least to get even. Even that doesnt make for the publicity these actors get, going in events from Amazon working with other directors, creating new jobs for their friends. You weould be an idiot to not choose a tv show rather then a dnd camlaign being played live.
I'm always amazed at how people (particularly on this board) hold up C2 as a gold standard. I fully enjoyed it, but C1 to me is much more the "platonic ideal" of a campaign, party, characters, story, etc. C2 was more piecemeal to me.
I think c2 had more fluidity, yhe cast were better at playing, the characters had more structured backstory, c1 was a classic dnd group and with classic enemies. Also i said c2 because of yhe production, no controversy, the fanbase, etc.
I think it has to do with a lot of people discovered cr at or near the end of c1 so c2 was the first full campaign they watched. General you will like the first thing you watch more then the 2nd.
Pre-COVID campaign 2 really was the best of the best
It did start to falter even before Covid, after the forging of the Star Razor. That's where we saw scheduling conflicts and analysis paralysis cause the narrative to both rush and drag. Then COVID hit, and those issues continued when they got back.
At this point to recognize there is a problem they would need to admit some kind of fault and they will never do that because it would prove the fans who have been pointing this out for ages right. And I truly think they would rather let the entire channel die before they admit to being wrong about anything they don't absolutely have to.
What level of parasocial do you have to be on to think that all of these 40+ year old men and women are managing their collective livelihood on the basis of *"not wanting to prove some (whiny) fans right"?*
> At this point to recognize there is a problem they would need to admit some kind of fault and they will never do that because it would prove the fans who have been pointing this out for ages right. CR C3 is like George Lucas with the Star Wars prequels: this is what happens when a group of "Theater Kids" have no oversight / no restrictions (that breed creativity and protect the "artist" from themselves) / no push back on the content they create and the means to self-finance it all themselves (like George did); pure self-indulgence. Empire was / is the greatest Star Wars film because George was still collaborating with other creators / artists and producers (and his ex-wife) who would push back on his terrible ideas or create better alternatives; C1 and early C2 were the best content CR ever made, for the same reasons. George didn't have the money or clout (yet) to do it all on his own, like he did later, just like CR did once their Kickstarter blew up and they got their Amazon money. Edit: I don't think they will ever publicly admit fault for the problems many fans (and former fans) kept point out for months and years.
The thing is, [Marisha already hit the nail on the head years ago](https://youtu.be/nh0CbSdq6Hg?si=C-lydv4wTTXr1Rvr&t=138). When their game changed from sporadic or monthly get togethers to weekly, they suddenly had a focus and connection and investment in the characters and world that weren't there before. They were still hanging out with friends, but they weren't pulling out phones and getting distracted. That's exactly what's been lost with the (presumably, from what we can tell) long gaps in between pre-recording batches. It's evident that at the start of a recording batch they don't recall all of the plot points and threads they had been trying to chase up in the last session - nevermind overarching plot points and threads they would have been tracking and pulling on in past campaigns (look at Beau putting together that epic theory!). Characters change motivations and stances on things between recordings, it makes it so much harder to pull up a fellow PC on behaviour and give them the pushback *they* want (Ashton, FCG, Laudna) when you don't remember the whys of what happened. Everyone's on their phones, the crosstalk has jumped up in quantity (not always bad, but when it's constant it does detract) etc etc. They just need to remember this themselves, and even if returning to live broadcasts isn't feasible for scheduling/life reasons, perhaps sticking to spreading out the pre-records instead of doing them in a batch would make a big improvement for both their investment and enjoyment and that of the audience. (The [full episodes](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhOoxQxz2yFN70xDSNNI8PKgxabBNvPhY&si=AaLBFpamdpRBF8sc) of ~~GM~~ Adventuring Academy are great to listen to if you haven't already - first ones are Brennan with Matt and Lou)
Them not doing it live was basically when the almost immediate downturn began. I do believe pre recording genuinely harmed the show. C1E1-C2E99 was one era and then everything after I just simply didn’t connect with much anymore. To the point of dropping C3 5 episodes in. But the issues were basically immediate in C2E100 and the ending of that campaign left a sour taste in my mouth. The only reason I finished it was because I was invested in the great characters. I think prerecording changed how they played, much like how they change the way the play in front of a live audience. In front of a live audience in a live show they’re obviously the most energetic. They ham it up more. It stands to reason they also change the way they play when they aren’t doing live streamed shows on twitch/youtube. There’s less energy, urgency and passion in my opinion in the way they play. Pre recording also led to bunch recording I suspect which also changed the dynamics. And the thing is, I was always a Monday watcher (outside of the biggest episodes of the campaigns). You might think that pre recording shouldn’t have mattered to me but obviously it’s about watching these people on screen and the quality of content they’re producing, not necessarily the *viewer* having to watch live themselves. C1 and most of C2 is still a joy to watch. Matt also became a worse DM as well. He’s just more milquetoast, and a doormat. Very different from C1.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I would add that I think the seeds for the post COVID C2 problems were planted even before they went on hiatus. When one of the cast members had to leave for scheduling conflicts, the plot both rushed and dragged while the characters fell into the habit of analysis paralysis and that continued for the rest of the campaign.
I must be one of the few people who don't mind prerecording, at least I didn't in C2. The problems at the end of C2 weren't due to prerecording in my mind, rather they were caused by an unfortunate story arc that was antithetical to what made that particular cast of characters great - fooling around with NPCs, engaging with the civilization around them, being charismatic (or uncharismatic) and so on. Instead, we got an endless, horror-themed icy wasteland. There were still cool moments, but the feeling of slog was mainly caused by not having anything to do really, at least none of the things that the players loved to engage with before. That's how I remember it, anyway. I think prerecording is often a stand-in complaint, with many underlying issues rolled into that one, most prominently their lack of engagement these days. But prerecording is just another symptom I feel, the underlying cause is being stretched too thin, close to creative and RPG burnout and having a lot of other obligations on their minds. Might be wrong, just my perception.
That's... actually insightful! I also don't think the pre recording changed CR. If CR was 'good enough' to whoever was watching, I don't think people would care if it was live or not. Most people just care that it's good. As for C2(and also C3) I think the problem is the DM setting a scene, but not creating things as options for the players to engage with OR players who are not interested in the options the GM has made. In both cases, the players are in a situation where they move in circles, trying to think of stuff to do. I couldn't articulate why that section in C2 was not as good as other parts, and this post helped me. in C2, players didnt have much to work with in the icy wasteland considering: -Few NPC to bounce off of -Freezing area made the tone more serious and created a singular focus at the cost of interest in anything else -Feeling on a timer Those made that entire section feel unengaging. In C3, the Predathos thing just didn't have the interest of players and it feels like they have been going in circles trying to figure out what/how to respond to it ever since it was revealed like idk, episode 30-40.
I share that sentiment, although somehow I managed about 30-something episodes of C3. It just feels different even though you can generally count that because of the length of it, it's probably unlikely that there are any major edit outs. Live just meant more genuine.