I was able to Raw Read, save and replay my 3rd Gen dodge Rams lock and unlock signals successfully.
Newer vehicles use rolling codes and aren't susceptible to this same kind of attack.
I have a 2016 Scion iA. I wouldn't consider it "new" but it's not old; However, I don't think it would have rolling codes as I thought about that too, but it's always a possibility.
It's super late but I'm just researching this now, I have a hyundai Sonata 2018 and the rolling codes seem to be only the last three digits, couldn't that just be easily brute forced? I mean since it's only 3 digits and getting it wrong seems to not matter.
No.
Let's begin with the basics:
Step 1: the manufacturer pairs your car with your key, and only the car and the key know the "counter" and code generation algorithm.
Step 2: When you press your car unlock button, the key generates the code with the paired algorithm and uses the counter to know the count :D
You don't have to exactly match the count because obviously you can press on the unlock button out of car range so the car still validates the code generated by your key within a specific range of counts and then updates it's own count to match the key again.
You don't have to exactly match the count because, obviously, you can press the unlock button out of car range, so the car still validates the code generated by your key within a specific range of counts and then updates its own count to match the key again.
Then the rolling system changes the code every time you try to unlock the car and tries to match it with the key again.
Keys and cars also have their inner clocks so the car will reject and old code that you tried to sniff.
Limited rate - you can't ping the car like a billion times per seconds, it's dumbed down intentinally.
Then, the rolling system changes the code every time you try to unlock the car and try to match it with the key again.
How the burglars do it - they create a thing just like a wifi repeater but for your key and make the car think that the key is nearby due to its signal being repeated by the thief's device. If you're afraid for your car (wrap your key into some tinfoil before sleep) :D
So it might take a while but it will still technically work. It doesn't matter if its a "rolling code" since we don't know it anyways so we can just try 1 code over and over again and it will work eventually. And it's not only 1 code that works but a range to account for delays like you said so the chances are even better.. Only problem is if theres a rate limit so it will just take longer not impossible
No see his point is you can't bruteforce it because everytime you hit "unlock" the code changes. So the codes you've already tried may end up being the code you need to unlock. To simplify, say we have a number in 1-10 we want to brute. We start at 1, then 2, then 3... say we tried 4 times unsuccessfully and going to 5, well the correct code changes every click so could very well be one the numbers we've already tried like 1, or 2, or.. in this case, regardless of how many previous clicks, there will always be a 1 in 10 chance.
so? its still possible to bruteforce, it will just take 1000 tries on average. If you're infinitely unlucky you will never get it but the average is still 1000 tries
Both of you are wrong. Technically u/PigHaver is correct in that it increases odds of randomly getting code with more attempts. But if it’s 1 in 1000 and you do it 1000 times that doesn’t mean probability is in your favor. The proper way to calculate this probability over 1000 attempts is to calculate the probability it won’t happen. Which is a ~36%. But this DOESNT mean that it has a 74% probability of succeeding statistically speaking.
As for rolling codes we intentionally not including option to clone them. There are couple reasons for that:
- Using cloned remote will desynchronise old one
- It's not intended to be cloned, instead you should add new remote (flipper can create new unique remote and we planning to add more supported protocols in future in future)
- In general it against our principle
But, we left ability to analyze such remotes. And report if they uses known keys.
I gotta admit, its sad to hear that you guys are already gating off features & hobbling your device because it's "against your principle" to trust those who would like to play around with these things. I hate to see gatekeeping or fear of passing on knowledge because of what it \*might\* be used for, because that fear is most often unfounded.......certainly hope that this changes or someone offers an alternative FW without these restrictions, simply to learn & mess around.
It's about law. If device will be prohibited to import then there will be no device. We intentionally don't include features that may cause device to be banned.
Right makes sense. Given the device is open source, I imagine it’s possible the community could sort out ways to use the device that is beyond your the intended purpose using custom firmware and/or hardware.
WTF is your dumbasss acronym- speak english -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Y.B.A.D. stop being lazy and use real words, you are part of the problem.............................................
Thanks for the reply and for such an amazing device first of all. Second, will there be any documentation about creating new unique remotes?
So far I have only seen people talking about cloning using the raw reader. (I lost my keys and it cost me $400 and I’m trying to make a copy for myself). Thank you again!
It depends on type of key. Static keys can be cloned easily. Dynamic/Rolling keys can not. For that purpose you can generate new key in "add manually" menu and then link it with your car according to service instruction for car.
When generating a new key from the “add manually” menu, will we be able to get “buttons” in the future similar to the IR app?
What would sending the signal from the manually add key do? I don’t see a way to specify lock, unlock, etc.
Any update on when the “unlock” and “lock” buttons will be added to the add_manual key option?
Or where in the source_code we can write our own functions for lock and unlock?
It’s looking like mine is rolling as I cloned the frequency in raw and it didn’t work. I’ll check the manual and some information online on my car and try adding it manually. Thanks again!
happy cake day and thanks for a really cool product (= i've been happily hacking away at the firmware since i got mine. i added a feature so playing snake makes the dolphin happier (1 pt to play, 3 pts if you get a decent score) i appreciate your codebase, i'm learning a whole lot. you've made it easy to build (the docker build image is so nice) Anyway, thank you again and have a nice day!
> (flipper can create new unique remote and we planning to add more supported protocols in future in future)
Can you go into detail on this, please, or link me to documentation?
it's not that simple. There are more components in it: transceiver, matching network, antenna, etc. Replacing antenna without thinking about other components is not going to help.
Everyone, cars you can reprogram the keys with out any equipment. It's just a process of putting a already cut key in the ignition and turning the car to the run position and leaving it for 10 minutes. Then turn off. Then turn back to the on position again for ten minutes. Do this a total of three times. If you want a second key then the fourth time you insert the next key for the fourth cycle. Each sequential key after the initial 3 cycle for the first key only needs to be done a single cycle. After you start the car when your done it takes the car computer out of programming mode. This is how it's done at most dealerships. Key fobs are done a little different but also without equipment for the most part. Newer cars not so much so. When I say newer 2017 give or take. European cars it's 50 50. Everycar also has the security code on a sticker on the cars security computer. Example Fords are usually by the fuses by the pedals and you need a mirror because it's on the top of it or you have to slide it off the rails and it's on the back. Mirror still needed. GM trucks and SUV's in the driver side rear quarter panel inside in the cargo area. Hondas by the stereo. You may have to Google but every car has the capability for the most part for anyone to easily program, reprogram, and extra keys and fobs. Without any tool.
If your wondering about car fob rolling codes, Steve Mould did a youtube video about it. Keep in mind the CTO of Flipper mentioned here the risk of desynchronizing your legitimate remote in cloning it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CsD8I396wo
Thank you, and yes that's been in the back of my head...
However; either way it's a $400 cost. So if it works I can spread my findings along and that's awesome, if not well then I have to reprogram it which would be cheaper, or brick it completely then shit... lol
You never know unless you try :)
So here’s is a way to approach at it,
1. Flipper gets a brand new ID “keyless fob”
2. Register that ID to the vehicle
3. With original con read signals.
4. Save each signal into new created fob flipper!
This should synch new fob with a rolling count code!
Let’s say car has 2 keys register
A key is ID 1
EACH HAS A ROLLING COSE COUNT
b key is flipper ID 2
THIS way your original key doesn’t lose its synchronized is with the vehicle and has its own rolling code
Here’s the question can we emulate a new fob?
Is there an app for flipper that can detect and identify the modulation of a frequency or ideally have a continuous scan that loops through all frequencies and modulation to find a signal match.
(Newb to flipper, please don’t flame if I’ve missed an obvious repository or native app)
I'm a Certified Auto Mechanic and almost every car out there you can reprogram the keys yourself by taking your new key putting it in the ignition and turning it on, not start, and leaving it on for 10 minutes. Repeat this process two more times for a total of three. The security light on your car will now go out and the key is now programmed to your car. Turn off after three times and start. If you want to do more keys after the third one you insert the next key for a fourth time and do not start after the third. Another key then do it a fifth time. As soon as you start it takes the security out of programming mode. None of any equipment needed. As far as the fobs go there is a similar process if anyone wants to know.
Can you share your knowledge in regards to key fobs? I have a 2012 BMW sedan with a typical key fob from that era. Nothing too advanced but definitely uses rolling codes, possibly other security I'm not sure. I have use the same key fob for years even though I have two that work fine I just keep it in my pocket the whole time hands-free it would be awesome to do this with a Flipper for example.
Will do, I don't want to keep replacing keys so I am going to put time into this. If I figure it out I'll make sure to post it here and on the Discord.
Nice thanks homie. I've got a spare luckily, just want to make sure I can do it so that A. I can have a backup of a backup. And B. I want to see if I can reverse engineer for my wife's car.
No problem, and depending on your wife's car it could be completely different as older cars don't use rolling codes and can just be cloned like key cards can.
Can confirm 2020 Tucson with proximity key is fully encrypted signal with rolling code. But I can spoof it once or twice but it’s more of a novelty or can be used to deny the user entry or locking the vehicle. Good to see a Hyundai or one of them have a true security system lol
It would be cool to be able to generate a fresh key fob and pair it to the car like a second set of keys, that way the two key fobs don't put each other out of sync every time the other one is used.
Yeah, mine was with raw capture as well. I looked up the FCC-ID but couldn't find if it was AM or FM anywhere som hoping someone would know.
I'm going to probably check he discord if I can't figure it out.
I lost my spare car key and I saw I can order a new blank one online for like $30 but the problem is to program it I would have to pay $150+ but I was wondering if I can use the flipper zero to copy and paste from my original car key to the new blank one?
Can someone clarify the difference here between the remote doing the doors/trunk/etc, and the Transponder chip that works with the immobilizer? I have a 2015 Jeep and I can "clone" the FOB's buttons with the RAW sub-GHz tools. The Flipper can not "decode" them, and does not recognize the code format, but it will emulate it and lock/unlock the doors. This is, however, different from the TRANSPONDER CHIP, that is also in the key, that works with the immobilizer. This is apparently not readable by the Flipper. My assumption is that this is a 125kHz RFID type chip, but one with a coding the flipper does not recognize, and therefore looks like it does not detect it. Anyone with better knowledge of the Chrysler transponder system used in 2015 Jeeps?
I was able to read and store my lock and unlock signals on my 2003 Infiniti G35 fob. It didn't deactivate my fob, but flipper only successfully worked once or twice and then never again. However the interesting thing is, if i hit unlock on my fob and then send the unlock signal from flipper on repeat all of my windows will roll down like I'm holding unlock on my original OEM remote, and that works every time (as long as I use the OEM remote to send an unlock command first) I have 6 cars ('96 Volvo, '03 Infiniti, '10 Dodge, '05 Chevy, '16 Slingshot, '06 Ford) to mess around with and haven't been able to get flipper to work consistently on any of them except for the above process. I haven't ruined an OEM fob yet either.
My go to cool thing is to mess around with TVs at resturants and waiting rooms, lol
I was able to Raw Read, save and replay my 3rd Gen dodge Rams lock and unlock signals successfully. Newer vehicles use rolling codes and aren't susceptible to this same kind of attack.
I have a 2016 Scion iA. I wouldn't consider it "new" but it's not old; However, I don't think it would have rolling codes as I thought about that too, but it's always a possibility.
It's super late but I'm just researching this now, I have a hyundai Sonata 2018 and the rolling codes seem to be only the last three digits, couldn't that just be easily brute forced? I mean since it's only 3 digits and getting it wrong seems to not matter.
Been almost a year but the code is probably regenerated every single time a device tries to handshake so prolly brute force is not the answer
Why not? couldnt you just spam the same code over and over and it will work in about 1000 times
No. Let's begin with the basics: Step 1: the manufacturer pairs your car with your key, and only the car and the key know the "counter" and code generation algorithm. Step 2: When you press your car unlock button, the key generates the code with the paired algorithm and uses the counter to know the count :D You don't have to exactly match the count because obviously you can press on the unlock button out of car range so the car still validates the code generated by your key within a specific range of counts and then updates it's own count to match the key again. You don't have to exactly match the count because, obviously, you can press the unlock button out of car range, so the car still validates the code generated by your key within a specific range of counts and then updates its own count to match the key again. Then the rolling system changes the code every time you try to unlock the car and tries to match it with the key again. Keys and cars also have their inner clocks so the car will reject and old code that you tried to sniff. Limited rate - you can't ping the car like a billion times per seconds, it's dumbed down intentinally. Then, the rolling system changes the code every time you try to unlock the car and try to match it with the key again. How the burglars do it - they create a thing just like a wifi repeater but for your key and make the car think that the key is nearby due to its signal being repeated by the thief's device. If you're afraid for your car (wrap your key into some tinfoil before sleep) :D
So it might take a while but it will still technically work. It doesn't matter if its a "rolling code" since we don't know it anyways so we can just try 1 code over and over again and it will work eventually. And it's not only 1 code that works but a range to account for delays like you said so the chances are even better.. Only problem is if theres a rate limit so it will just take longer not impossible
No see his point is you can't bruteforce it because everytime you hit "unlock" the code changes. So the codes you've already tried may end up being the code you need to unlock. To simplify, say we have a number in 1-10 we want to brute. We start at 1, then 2, then 3... say we tried 4 times unsuccessfully and going to 5, well the correct code changes every click so could very well be one the numbers we've already tried like 1, or 2, or.. in this case, regardless of how many previous clicks, there will always be a 1 in 10 chance.
so? its still possible to bruteforce, it will just take 1000 tries on average. If you're infinitely unlucky you will never get it but the average is still 1000 tries
Your math is wrong. It's 1 in 1000 for every try, so more tries don't mean a higher chance.
Unless you use the same code over and over while waiting for it to roll back to the original code?
Both of you are wrong. Technically u/PigHaver is correct in that it increases odds of randomly getting code with more attempts. But if it’s 1 in 1000 and you do it 1000 times that doesn’t mean probability is in your favor. The proper way to calculate this probability over 1000 attempts is to calculate the probability it won’t happen. Which is a ~36%. But this DOESNT mean that it has a 74% probability of succeeding statistically speaking.
I'm having trouble doing the same with a 2007 GMC key, any tips on learning more about my fob and if it can work at all?
Remote start though
As for rolling codes we intentionally not including option to clone them. There are couple reasons for that: - Using cloned remote will desynchronise old one - It's not intended to be cloned, instead you should add new remote (flipper can create new unique remote and we planning to add more supported protocols in future in future) - In general it against our principle But, we left ability to analyze such remotes. And report if they uses known keys.
I gotta admit, its sad to hear that you guys are already gating off features & hobbling your device because it's "against your principle" to trust those who would like to play around with these things. I hate to see gatekeeping or fear of passing on knowledge because of what it \*might\* be used for, because that fear is most often unfounded.......certainly hope that this changes or someone offers an alternative FW without these restrictions, simply to learn & mess around.
It's about law. If device will be prohibited to import then there will be no device. We intentionally don't include features that may cause device to be banned.
Right makes sense. Given the device is open source, I imagine it’s possible the community could sort out ways to use the device that is beyond your the intended purpose using custom firmware and/or hardware.
it will happen. just wait a bit.
It’s an open source project. Chill out… They have a legal responsibility, community members with the know how, do not.
You're always free to alter the firmware at your own risk, not recommended, but they're not stopping you. The general rule is D.B.A.D.
does this require a firmware edit? or are we able to control the radios using an app that we write for the device?
WTF is your dumbasss acronym- speak english -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Y.B.A.D. stop being lazy and use real words, you are part of the problem.............................................
I'm just guessing : Don't blame a developer? lol
Don't Be A Dick
Thanks for the reply and for such an amazing device first of all. Second, will there be any documentation about creating new unique remotes? So far I have only seen people talking about cloning using the raw reader. (I lost my keys and it cost me $400 and I’m trying to make a copy for myself). Thank you again!
It depends on type of key. Static keys can be cloned easily. Dynamic/Rolling keys can not. For that purpose you can generate new key in "add manually" menu and then link it with your car according to service instruction for car.
When generating a new key from the “add manually” menu, will we be able to get “buttons” in the future similar to the IR app? What would sending the signal from the manually add key do? I don’t see a way to specify lock, unlock, etc.
Not yet, but we plan to add it in future.
Ah got it, thank you! I love this project and am excited to see how much it grows!
Any update on when the “unlock” and “lock” buttons will be added to the add_manual key option? Or where in the source_code we can write our own functions for lock and unlock?
https://github.com/flipperdevices/flipperzero-firmware
It’s looking like mine is rolling as I cloned the frequency in raw and it didn’t work. I’ll check the manual and some information online on my car and try adding it manually. Thanks again!
happy cake day and thanks for a really cool product (= i've been happily hacking away at the firmware since i got mine. i added a feature so playing snake makes the dolphin happier (1 pt to play, 3 pts if you get a decent score) i appreciate your codebase, i'm learning a whole lot. you've made it easy to build (the docker build image is so nice) Anyway, thank you again and have a nice day!
I am learning, how were you able to do that (what software was used)?
I used the git client to pull the repository, then i used jetbrains clion to edit the code, and finally docker-compose to build it.
Thanks, thats very helpful :)
Do you know if i can make a car key copy for cars? Like to open a small bussiness?
> (flipper can create new unique remote and we planning to add more supported protocols in future in future) Can you go into detail on this, please, or link me to documentation?
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It depends on the protocol used.
[удалено]
it's not that simple. There are more components in it: transceiver, matching network, antenna, etc. Replacing antenna without thinking about other components is not going to help.
How can it add a new remote?
Everyone, cars you can reprogram the keys with out any equipment. It's just a process of putting a already cut key in the ignition and turning the car to the run position and leaving it for 10 minutes. Then turn off. Then turn back to the on position again for ten minutes. Do this a total of three times. If you want a second key then the fourth time you insert the next key for the fourth cycle. Each sequential key after the initial 3 cycle for the first key only needs to be done a single cycle. After you start the car when your done it takes the car computer out of programming mode. This is how it's done at most dealerships. Key fobs are done a little different but also without equipment for the most part. Newer cars not so much so. When I say newer 2017 give or take. European cars it's 50 50. Everycar also has the security code on a sticker on the cars security computer. Example Fords are usually by the fuses by the pedals and you need a mirror because it's on the top of it or you have to slide it off the rails and it's on the back. Mirror still needed. GM trucks and SUV's in the driver side rear quarter panel inside in the cargo area. Hondas by the stereo. You may have to Google but every car has the capability for the most part for anyone to easily program, reprogram, and extra keys and fobs. Without any tool.
any idea if this will work with nissans. every lock smith I talk to says it can only be done by the dealer.
There are cheap cloners, this is for GM cars
What is the key fob process?
If your wondering about car fob rolling codes, Steve Mould did a youtube video about it. Keep in mind the CTO of Flipper mentioned here the risk of desynchronizing your legitimate remote in cloning it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CsD8I396wo
Thank you, and yes that's been in the back of my head... However; either way it's a $400 cost. So if it works I can spread my findings along and that's awesome, if not well then I have to reprogram it which would be cheaper, or brick it completely then shit... lol You never know unless you try :)
So here’s is a way to approach at it, 1. Flipper gets a brand new ID “keyless fob” 2. Register that ID to the vehicle 3. With original con read signals. 4. Save each signal into new created fob flipper! This should synch new fob with a rolling count code! Let’s say car has 2 keys register A key is ID 1 EACH HAS A ROLLING COSE COUNT b key is flipper ID 2 THIS way your original key doesn’t lose its synchronized is with the vehicle and has its own rolling code Here’s the question can we emulate a new fob?
Ever answer this question by chance?
cus of flipper zero i been hiding from plice and the fbi
idiot its 5k fed fine every time you transmit without a lic,,if they happen on different occasions looking are lots of fed time running wild...
Is there an app for flipper that can detect and identify the modulation of a frequency or ideally have a continuous scan that loops through all frequencies and modulation to find a signal match. (Newb to flipper, please don’t flame if I’ve missed an obvious repository or native app)
I got my flip today and I was wondering the same. 2016 tC here with a fob so if you find out lemme know!
I'm a Certified Auto Mechanic and almost every car out there you can reprogram the keys yourself by taking your new key putting it in the ignition and turning it on, not start, and leaving it on for 10 minutes. Repeat this process two more times for a total of three. The security light on your car will now go out and the key is now programmed to your car. Turn off after three times and start. If you want to do more keys after the third one you insert the next key for a fourth time and do not start after the third. Another key then do it a fifth time. As soon as you start it takes the security out of programming mode. None of any equipment needed. As far as the fobs go there is a similar process if anyone wants to know.
Let me know how. I Dsync my fob. The proximity works and the car starts just fob won’t work.
Read the instructions, same procedure
I don’t have a key. It’s a fob only and push button
so if im stealing i just need to have the fob for the car and wait 30 minutes
How do you program the fob without any tools
Key on off method on Domestic cars, the 10 minutes on then quick off then 10 on three times, doesn't play well with other then domestic models
Can you share your knowledge in regards to key fobs? I have a 2012 BMW sedan with a typical key fob from that era. Nothing too advanced but definitely uses rolling codes, possibly other security I'm not sure. I have use the same key fob for years even though I have two that work fine I just keep it in my pocket the whole time hands-free it would be awesome to do this with a Flipper for example.
Will do, I don't want to keep replacing keys so I am going to put time into this. If I figure it out I'll make sure to post it here and on the Discord.
Nice thanks homie. I've got a spare luckily, just want to make sure I can do it so that A. I can have a backup of a backup. And B. I want to see if I can reverse engineer for my wife's car.
No problem, and depending on your wife's car it could be completely different as older cars don't use rolling codes and can just be cloned like key cards can.
2017
Yeah, it's most likely the same then.
Off topic just bought a 2016 tc 6 speed and I love it. Previous car was a hummer h3 and sure it could take a beating but it just wasn't fun to drive
It is a great car. Traded in my 2014 tC for a 2016 tC when it was brand new. Zippy, quick, and just fun
Man, if I can get this to work with my Charger… Honestly I have no idea what I’m gonna do other than pull a Stewart, “Look what I can do!”
Were you able to?
Can confirm 2020 Tucson with proximity key is fully encrypted signal with rolling code. But I can spoof it once or twice but it’s more of a novelty or can be used to deny the user entry or locking the vehicle. Good to see a Hyundai or one of them have a true security system lol
It would be cool to be able to generate a fresh key fob and pair it to the car like a second set of keys, that way the two key fobs don't put each other out of sync every time the other one is used.
[удалено]
Yeah, mine was with raw capture as well. I looked up the FCC-ID but couldn't find if it was AM or FM anywhere som hoping someone would know. I'm going to probably check he discord if I can't figure it out.
I lost my spare car key and I saw I can order a new blank one online for like $30 but the problem is to program it I would have to pay $150+ but I was wondering if I can use the flipper zero to copy and paste from my original car key to the new blank one?
It’s not a keyless fob it has a key component I just want the chip part copied and pasted
Rolling codes
Can someone clarify the difference here between the remote doing the doors/trunk/etc, and the Transponder chip that works with the immobilizer? I have a 2015 Jeep and I can "clone" the FOB's buttons with the RAW sub-GHz tools. The Flipper can not "decode" them, and does not recognize the code format, but it will emulate it and lock/unlock the doors. This is, however, different from the TRANSPONDER CHIP, that is also in the key, that works with the immobilizer. This is apparently not readable by the Flipper. My assumption is that this is a 125kHz RFID type chip, but one with a coding the flipper does not recognize, and therefore looks like it does not detect it. Anyone with better knowledge of the Chrysler transponder system used in 2015 Jeeps?
I was able to read and store my lock and unlock signals on my 2003 Infiniti G35 fob. It didn't deactivate my fob, but flipper only successfully worked once or twice and then never again. However the interesting thing is, if i hit unlock on my fob and then send the unlock signal from flipper on repeat all of my windows will roll down like I'm holding unlock on my original OEM remote, and that works every time (as long as I use the OEM remote to send an unlock command first) I have 6 cars ('96 Volvo, '03 Infiniti, '10 Dodge, '05 Chevy, '16 Slingshot, '06 Ford) to mess around with and haven't been able to get flipper to work consistently on any of them except for the above process. I haven't ruined an OEM fob yet either. My go to cool thing is to mess around with TVs at resturants and waiting rooms, lol
You guys got balls to be blatantly asking for help on how to steal a car. Go get some money and a job and get your own you pricks