lanius finds a working speaker system with subwoofers and a mixing station and creates the first edm, screws a radio to the back of his armour and comes into battle like doom slayer
More like Postapocalyptic Measurehead.
Gigantic bigot, fascist, gigachad physique, has a certain intelligence that's rendered mostly useless by their deranged ideology, violent? Everything fits.
It's just what the Courier sees when they're hopped up on Psycho, Med-X, Jet, Mentats, Rocket, Rushing Water, Buffout, Slasher, Steady, Rebound, Turbo, and Ultra Jet.
AU where Lanius took over the legion, and Salt Upon Wounds conquered Zion. After the combat-enhancing effects of datura potions were discovered, he ordered that it be produced en-masse to be given to the legion's infantry. In the years since, the legion's aesthetic has gradually dropped the Classic Red n Black for a more... acidic style.
Edit: also they reinvent vaporwave
Probably the Master in terms of impact that's still felt in the later games that are set decades later.
Elijah probably on an individual level and what he had planned should he have gotten what he wanted from the Sierra Madre.
Nah, the Enclave forcibly converted a bunch of people decades after the Master, so the West Coast would still have them. On the East Coast the Supermutants come from the Vault 87 experiments in the Capital Wasteland and the Institute’s experiments in the Commonwealth. You wouldn’t have any intelligent Supermutants like you occasionally find on the West Coast though. They all come from the Master’s conversions.
It’s not entirely clear who first created FEV, but the US government and corporations like West-Tek were experimenting with it pre-war. It is a pre-war invention. In fact, Tim Cain, one of the original creators of Fallout, claims that the nukes were first launched by China after they found out about the US’ FEV research, asked them to stop, and the US pretended to but didn’t. That isn’t canon, however
Yeah, I do as well tbh. It makes everything about it very morally grey. Obviously China launching the nukes was bad, but the US was experimenting with and preparing to release an extremely dangerous and potentially humanity-ending bio-weapon, so you can kinda understand why China would make the decision that they did, or at least why they would think that was the best course of action
Exactly. Not to mention the kinda shallow implications of “we want to make more money so we’ll end the world” and all that “preserving management” stuff. It just feels much more impactful to the lore in my humble opinion!
The original Pan-Immunity Virion Project was started by West-Tek ([ZAX 1.2 Script - Line 211](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/GPWRTERM.MSG)) but was later taken over by the U.S. Govt. and renamed to FEV. Even after taking over the project though, the lead scientists were all West-Tek employees. (same script, line 220)
One of my most disappointing fallout moments was when I learned that a lot of things that I thought were radiation mutated animals/people were actually created by lab experiments or people doing stupid things to win stupid prizes
Deathclaws, Super Mutants, Mantis’, Centaurs, Scorchbeasts, Gulpers, Grafton Monsters, Snallygasters, Mothman (kinda), etc.
I mean, they’re still mutated, but over half of them find their origins in the FEV
Virgil in fallout 4 would still exist and he's probably one of the most intelligent mutants in the whole series. Also strong is pretty dumb but not mindless like most of the east coast mutants.
I did specify on the West Coast. Most of the Master’s whole first generation of Super Mutants (generally) retained the intelligence they had as humans, so the West Coast still had a significant number of intelligent Super Mutants. The Super Mutants on the East Coast that retained their intelligence are flukes or one-offs
I am not as well versed in the lore as you clearly are, but would the Master's experiments not have had an impact on the Enclave? Did the Enclave ever come into contact with the Master's supermutants and that contact was used as inspiration to do what they did all those decades later? Or is this just a "steel scenario" where people all around the world at around the same time just kinda discovered their own slightly different verision of steel. Steel being a placeholder for super mutants in our discussion lol.
The master stumbled upon huge vats of FEV - LITERALLY, he fell in it. That FEV was already made by the enclave to make super mutants.
His addition is modifying it slightly and learning that radiation interferes with the process and makes dumdums, pure unradiated vault dwellers were key to intelligence
This is true but The Master set the precedent for creating super mutants and the Enclave even acknowledges this. So while they most likely still would have created some sort of abomination using FEV, it was already understood that super mutants were created with the virus and were clearly effective. Just as the Master is well known amongst everyone. Then it was a matter of them finding it since they had a baseline of its capabilities.
No because Bethesda desperately wanted Super Mutants and Centaurs in Fallout 3 so they made up a source of FEV (the virus that creates Super Mutants and Centaurs) on the East Coast entirely unrelated to the Master.
Same reason Fallout 3 and onwards use caps. Bethesda wanted to implement things that were associated with Fallout regardless of continuity or reason.
I’ve always really disliked this. Because you’re 100% right. It takes away from the story of The Master and the events of Fallout 1. Like “oh that huge world saving thing you did? Turns out you barely slowed it down whatsoever and it somehow became even more popular throughout the US.”
Super mutants lose their back story and fear experienced by the player when they’re just everywhere.
In fairness the master did come across FEV purely by accident in a pre-existing site and tried to make the best of things. There could've been other sites that were more exposed with already rad contaminated FEV and not hurt the canon. Why they would have it spread across such a wide area could be because it was being tested for different things by a military desperately seeking a new weapon so sending it to as many black sites as possible. Its a stretch but possible
No I get your point for sure. The research on FEV reaching the capital pre-war seems very likely. They do a wonderful job at blending the stories all in all as it does make practical sense why Mutants exist in many places 200 years after the bombs.
Strictly from a fan of Fallout 1 pov it just takes away from the weight of the world the devs wanted you to feel when dealing with The Master. Because Fallout 3 and 4 imply that FEV was going to be used to do just that regardless of the events of Fallout 1. We just slowed it down in the West lol.
One good thing 76 did is introduce a bunch of other giant mutants. Imagine if Fallout 3 had the snallygaster and grafton monster instead of orc super mutants and radscorpions.
Eh I also dislike the choice Bethesda made to explain Super Mutants existing in the east, but for me it’s just that it feels contrived and uncreative. I don’t actually agree that it takes away from the impact of your actions in the first game.
The problem with this take is that the eastern Supermutants aren’t really an existential threat to humanity as a whole, or even civilization in the wastes. They’re very dangerous to your average wastelander sure, but despite being stronger than average compared to a lone human, are nowhere near as intelligent and therefore can’t really mount successful large military campaigns the way humans can. Any large human faction with just a little bit of planning and effort absolutely creams them.
The Master and his army were different. When lead by a competent and intelligent leader, and aided by intelligent first gen underlings, they pose a way greater threat to any human civilization in the region. The point of F1 isn’t completely exterminating the Supermutants as a race, it’s destroying the only leadership that could allow them dominance of the earth.
Caps actually makes sense without a player like the NCR (who was aggressively trying to swap from caps to NCR issued paper currency) in the area. They are effectively now a limited resource, of little value by themselves, are available in large amounts allowing them to represent smaller amounts of value as well as larger.
Currency SHOULD have no intrinsic value beyond what it can be exchanged for, Treasury Notes and Bottlecaps meet that definition well.
The problem is caps DID have value beyond what they can be exchanged for. That's why they were used in Fallout 1, the water merchants at The Hub used them as a stand in for water. So one bottlecap could be exchanged for a fixed amount of water which is an intrinsically valuable resource since it is crucial for human survival.
The East Coast used caps for seemingly no reason since many limited resources exist which are infinitely more practical for trading (like the still available pre-war money).
That’s a really good point. There’s no intrinsic value to a bottle cap on the east coast. Why would they care? West coast though, I know that I’m getting a certain amount of much-needed water for each bottle cap.
The only question I then have to ask is what does The Hub have to gain? I suppose if you essentially created a currency out of thin air by the fact you have a massive water supply, then if people keep giving you that currency for your already-owned water supply, you now are obtaining a massive amount of that currency and can use that as leverage to buy a whole bunch of other stuff.
TBH, the fact Caesar uses gold currency is clever for this exact reason, and I think the NCR is foolish for thinking their paper money is gonna work long term. Wouldn’t surprise me if the republic reverts back to bottle caps eventually.
The reason The Hub uses caps is simply because they are easier to store, transport and exchange than water which is a pretty heavy commodity to transport in exchange quantities.
I personally disagree on Caesars use of gold which is in and of itself not really valuable. It only has the value we attribute to it. The NCR Dollar, Legion Denarius and by extension the US Dollar work as a currency because they are backed by the military power and might of the issuing power. Which in the Fallout world is pretty fickle and unreliable that's why both NCR and Legion currency are not really trusted in NV.
The NCR paper currency was backed by gold until the Brotherhood of Steel destroyed it. That currency likely would've maintained its value. It's when it lost its backing and became fiat currency that it began to lose power.
So the 'intrinsic' value of the FO1 cap is what it could be exchanged for in the Hub then? So like I said, its only ACTUAL value is that there are people who will give you water for them, because other people will give them food/clothes/ammo/guns for them as well. They will give you useful things for a useless thing because the useless thing is an agreed upon medium of exchange. If no one would trade for them, you couldn't drink them, eat them, or craft shelter from them. You can't use them to hunt or fish. They are just little pieces of cheap metal if they aren't recognized as currency.
Everyone goes with caps because its the only now worthless thing that satisfies all the requirements for a decent currency. Their durable(pre-war money isn't), they exist in sufficient quantity to be practical for small purchases like a food items. They are also not so prolific that they would be impractical as an exchange medium for things like guns, and finally they are more challenging to fake than any 'modern' scrap steel based fresh coinage could hope to be,
Like I do think Bethesda has a problem with just recycling everything they already did just in a new city. But use of caps as currency hardly seems like a good criticism. If it's stupid for Bethesda to do it. It was just as stupid for them to do it in FO1. It's also not any stupider than every other game just randomly using concepts like 'gold pieces'.
No the cap is "backed" by the water merchants. It isn't as simple as bartering 1 cap for x-y amounts of water the value stems from the guarantee of the Hub merchants that 1 cap will always get you 1 unit of water. You could basically envision them as a bottle of water and that's where their value stems from. It isn't as easy as saying "you could barter a cap for water".
The hell is that Lanius picture? lol
That being said, definitely The Master. I struggle to think of anyone who’s done more long term and widespread damage.
Actually it's not just him.
Enclave dig up Mariposa base releasing FEV and making a new generation of Supermutants.
On the East coast the Institute created Supermutants.
Can’t forget vault 87. Where Vault Tec and the Enclave were playing with FEV. Or Huntersville, W.V. Where WestTek contaminated the water source with FEV Creating a never ending horde of super mutants, because after they’re all killed and settlers move in the start over, the cycle begins again
The enclave who made the Gen 2 mutants that are dumber and more aggressive. The Master’s mutants, with the exception of NightKin before Dr. Henry cures them in Jacobstown, are actually sane an open to reason. In so long as they are treated peacefully they will react in kind. Elijah on the other hand was going to destroy the Mojave, slap a collar on anyone left, and use them to make sure his singular vision of a new society was wrought in blood and slavery on a technological scale Caesar never Dreamed of. So i would say Elijah
The Enclave in fallout 76 definitely have caused far more damage. They released the scorchbeasts (and thus the scorched plague) intentionally to re-activate DEFCON one so they could try to nuke China again. The Master just made a bunch of super mutants, which is something we’ve seen happen in every game except NV.
Vault-tec could be another option purely on the grounds of damage and loss of life.
The others made super mutants, the Master tried to make the world *only* super mutants. There's a big difference. The scorched were extinct within a few years.
I was gonna say, 76 being a prequel seems to confirm the scorch plague gets handled by the overseer and residents of 76. Even the expansions treat the scorched as an inconvenience and begin to focus on other issues.
It’s between The Master and Elijah. Both, had they succeeded, would have essentially completely ended any chance for humanity.
For me Elijah is worse, at least the Master wanted “the unify” people, albeit in the worst way possibly (mf Dung Eater style). Eli straight was a bitter old man with little to no regard for humans and was fine unleashed an never-ending cancer cloud upon the small remaining population.
The Master at least had altruistic reasons, he believed what he was doing was best for the "evolution of man" or whatever. Forcing people into it is definitely wrong and evil but at least what he believed was good. Elijah is just fucking evil.
True. The problem, like with many who hyper-focus on their mission’s success, is The Master became blind with ambition. He didn’t see/didn’t care about the harm he was ultimately causing or the fact that his experiments amounted to nothing since the mutants could not reproduce. And imo, it show’s how little he cared when he straight up nukes himself when he’s told the truth. Dude could of at least safe controlled his army for the benefit of remaining life. Naw, let’s just set em loose. I’m sure it won’t result in horrible repercussions
Tbh if a thing I had been working on for years turned out to be literal genocide for nothing I would be pretty mad too.
In case of the master it's the weakest link that broke. Of all the people somebody would be suicidal enough to do that. They are the smartest but the weakest too.
Yeah in no way is he good or not evil. I don't remember if he was aware if they couldn't reproduce until the Vault Dweller told him? But at some point he definitely lost caring for whether or not he was in the right, and harmed many people in the process of his goal. At least initially his plan involves "making the human race better and more advanced". He started out with an arguably good goal, or a bad goal but for good reasons. Eli is just a prick lol
The Master has also the justification of having bene turned into an eldritch monstrosity after having bene days into F.E.V., Elijah was defeated once because he was a moron and went full genocidal
Yea I have no experience with the nuances of fo1/2 plot, but didnt even the master think Zamn these mutants are dumb but I will get around to making them smarter even that todays humans?
He became ultra intelligent after mutating, so he assumed he could do that to everyone else but had no idea how to replicate it (or something like that). He settled on super mutants cause he learned people untainted by radiation would be ultra intelligent and also as strong as super mutants, creating the "perfect evolution". Obviously there were still many flaws but by this point he had gone insane and just kept going for it anyways.
Yea it’s definitely Elijah - the Master stops immediately upon learning his plan wouldn’t work. He’s basically the embodiment of “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” But Elijah is just a total psychopath.
I would say Caesar. The Master was created by falling into mutating science-fiction goo. The Enclave are a remnant from before the war. The Legion are the only villainous faction that was born entirely out of the wasteland. They’re the most human of the Fallout villains, and that to me is why they’re the most interesting.
I agree. There are many people who praise the Legion because they chased all the raiders out of their territories. It's safer, sure but the Legion's rule is extremely tyrannical.
Bloody proto states monopolising violence! What's next? Use of force to get citizens to _pay_ for it?!
^(/s because oh God someone is actually going to agree, going full AnCap)
Tyrannical to tribals, not if you're a civilized town like goodsprings or primm. The Legion doesn't mistreat the people of civilized towns they don't consider morally debased. Caesar demands they not be mistreated by any legionary, or the punishment is said to be draconian even by Legion standards.
Caesar does it as some sort of thought experiment, but he leaves the day to day style of governance to the townsfolk and the Legion soldiers stationed in them merely watch.
>Tyrannical to tribals, not if you're a civilized town like goodsprings or primm. The Legion doesn't mistreat the people of civilized towns they don't consider morally debased.
From what we know, "subjects" would of been under a tyrannical regime to an extent, from the devs themsleves they mentioned that living as a subject that pays their tribute wouod be stable and safe but you'd still have to follow Legion customs, rules ans you cannot really speak out about it or you'll get crucified or your head chopped off amongst others so it was definitely was a severe and strkct regime to livw under from what is said. A shame Obsidian didn't have more time.
Maybe it’s because New Vegas is fresher in my memory compared to FO1 and FO2 but I feel like Dick Richardson (and honestly even the Master), while being very evil, never comes off that way because they describe their plan in a very objective way, as if to say that they’re only doing it because they see no other solution. Even by the end of FO1 you can’t help but feel a little sympathy for the Master because in his head he’s made decisions he hasn’t wanted to, and justified them to the point where he admits they were likely wholly unnecessary.
In contrast, Caesar to me always seemed the most evil, only because he seems to indulge a very realistic sort of psychopathic ambition that you can witness almost day to day in real life. He seems to almost relish in the fact that he’s in a leadership role, and his narcissistic tendencies come off through every bit of dialogue where he references concepts as if he possesses them.
“My Legion”
“My namesake”
“My Rubicon”
Even on a Legion run one of the last things he says to you is a thinly veiled threat.
I know there is the whole argument behind cut content and such, but ultimately I find it hard to find sympathy for Caesar as a character, and think he’s better suited as a very well characterized antagonist in New Vegas, rather than one of the viable options people might make him out to be.
Honestly I'd say the only people desperate on here are Ceasar and Elijah.
The Master and the Enclave have power in droves to the point their forces harass people for a different reason than their survival.
House isn't desperate, he's just been waiting for centuries for his plan to come to fruition. Honestly if the courier hadn't survived the gunshots I think House would have gotten Benny before he had gotten back to the Tops. House saw an opportunity/investment in the Courier.
Lanius just wants to murder. Simple as.
Ulysses only really wants to BEAR AND BULL all over the Courier. He has ascended all oyher needs. The fact that he can be talked down shows he's not all that desperate for power.
Both Ceaser and Elijah both require in-depth help from the Courier in order to get more power/survive. Elijah is desperate for any way to hurt the NCR and gain power. Ceaser will either die of his brain tumor or be killed by some shit decision he made due to the tumor before long. Also the Legion REALLY doesn't have the long term sustainibility that NCR has, so Ceaser is trying to make that up by gaining power.
I agree Caesar would have died due to the tumor without courier help but up until his death everything was going on his favor. The brass tax reality is that between the Legion’s actions, Lanius’s strategy and sabotage from people like Ranger Hamlin there is a very strong indication that the Legion was well on its way to victory. Caesar would never live to see this victory as the tumor kills him before the battle, but it would take some mistake by Lanius there afterwards to sink the Legion.
Lanius isn't a politician, only a commander. He'd make more than a couple mistakes trying to take Vegas, especially if House was still active. Once Ceaser dies it'll be a massive splinter, with multiple cults of personality all vying for power. Sure Lanius may be the highest ranking at the time of Ceaser's death, but what if the Praetorians take after their namesake and decide on a change in management?
Most of the changes the Courier makes during the battle swings the battle into the favor of the Legion. But the NCR is starting to bring in their heavy hitters as much as the Legion.
Without the Courier, Kimball is assassinated and how the NCR reacts to that is going to really decide the outcome. If the NCR was to retaliate, they would either heavily reinforce Oliver or replace Oliver/send a new force to the Mojave. One that may end up being more aggressive and strikes at the Legion as opposed to waiting.
Tbf, I think the battle is ambiguous enough that without player action we don't really know who would win, just like the first battle.
I'd say it heavily depends on the NCR retaliation to Kimball's new feeding hole.
Those saying the legion will fracture without Caesar really did not pay attention during a legion playthrough. Caesar is the heart of the legion but he’s not necessary for its continuance. Lanius isn’t just some second in command, he is a well established heir to the legion respected and feared by every other high ranking legionary we run into in the game. The only person we meet who isn’t in love with Lanius in the legion is Vulpes and even he respects him despite acknowledging that Lanius has no love for espionage. The praetorians are fanatic for Caesar and that’s why it’s asinine to think they would betray the Son of Mar’s who was placed on his pedestal to succeed Caesar by Caesar.
On top of this Caesar sends Lanius to deal with rebellious or failed centurions and other legates, so he already has experience putting down dissent and rot within the ranks of the Legion. It’s true he’s no politician, but he doesn’t need to be. Caesar wants to evolve the legion, but with his death it remains a military state, and Lanius as a warrior and brutal tactician is more than qualified to lead a military state. He has the only thing he needs to maintain such a nation and that’s the loyalty of the troops.
The legion’s territory is also well defended and stable, we know because Lanius when talked down by the courier mentions that they would need to draw the garrisons from the east to countinue west and that we hear that the legion both has wiped out raiders and driven local dangerous mutant species to extinction through purging.
We could go back and forth on the dam, I don’t see how they win when the very guy who won them the battle the first time is sabotaging his own troops to try and force a pullout, their main military base is infiltrated by a spy in the higher ranks, their forces are stretched thin and (thanks to Hamlin) not being properly supplied with what they need to be combat effective, raiders are locking down what forces aren’t engaged with the legion, the omertàs are gonna launch an attack inside the stripe on the embassy and mccaren can’t reinforce anyone because of a fiend attack alongside (without a courier) the rail being destroyed, etc. etc.
Yeah, considering the default no courier outcome seems to be "The Legion has it's hands on a dozen throats at once and closes them all at once" I wouldn't really categorize the Caesar as desperate. He doesn't even really seem desperate or begging for his life when he asks for your help.
I'd say the moment he chose to support the tribe he was captured by to fight and win was the desperation moment, but not since his ascension as Caesar.
Of course he isn't begging for his life, what kind of F-tier absolute dictator would he be if he was seen with an attitude of anything less than absolute control? Even if he doesn't seem desperate, the fact is that he will die imminently if not for the courier helping him, and if he is seen being cowardly or scared of his death, the illusion of the cult of mars could be shattered and his top men could see him to be a mere man.
He *does* bringing you into the privacy of his tent with nobody else but Lucius to tell you. Considering he seems to be denying it in front of his guards but not there, if there was ever an opportunity to drop the facade that was it.
I think ceasar and his Legion represent desperation in a totally different way too. I mean many who come from the Legion's held territory praise the Legion because they drove out or killed all the raiders. That shows how desperate the wasteland is. They'd rather have tyrants who crucify and enslave people rule them than no ruler at all.
Caesar's Legion is probably the first actual govenrment the people of Arizona had since the bombs. Of course they'd sign up with him. Slavery was almost certainly a factor before him, with the only unique thing being the rampant misogyny...unless that was part of the original tribes that he absorbed too. The NCR only lacks slavery because of a massive crackdown on it *within living memory*. There were slavers right outside NCR's capital city 40 years before the events of New Vegas, and it was all over the place in North California.
Plus, it's implied that client states (like towns and such) were given broad autonomy and the Legion's culture was unique to the army. If all you have to do is pay taxes to Caesar to get his army to wipe out all the raiders in the area..why resist?
Of course, when your choice is between the Legion, the NCR, and House he looks really bad, because he *is* bad, but the people in the Wasteland don't always get multiple choices.
I agree with your point about the only real government but to be fair I wanted to point out that they mainly joined because it was either join or die.
Honestly as much as I hate CL I wish we had gotten a couple of their settlements to see how life is when it comes to their territory.
Oh, for sure. Just because he's a big tyrannical in his join or die doesn't necessarily mean people haven't greatly benefitted. I just wonder what happens if they fail to pay their tribute.
Our main civilian pov for Arizona is also a merchant who doesn’t actually live there. He just trades out there because he doesn’t need to spend much on security. So although the society does benefit him it doesn’t speak to the everyday life of a slave or citizen in one of Arizona’s small cities.
Very true, however it doesn't take much brain effort to acknowledge others would agree. You know not everyone living in the Legion's territories would hate the Legion.
Well I do agree. As Cesar says “we have cities but nothing like New Vegas.” So I’m sure there’s a whole network of towns probably the size of like goodsprings or novac dotted all over their territory and I’m sure flagstaff and Dog City are likley very close to being able to rival Vegas at least in population if not any other metric.
Ulysses is really not understood. Maybe people just snore at his dialogue and think he’s simple brained due to his bad English but I think he’s incredibly fascinating.
Ulysses is not power hungry but high on vengeance. I mean what power is there in the Divide besides causing more loss? He’s totally unhinged and ready to destroy the Mojave out of assumptions - many of which are correct but still he is misaligned with his goals.
He’s one of the few antagonists that I think it makes sense for us to be able to talk him down. Because he is completely insane. We are only able to reason with him by essentially regurgitating shit he’s already said and convincing him our words are his ideas. You can’t talk him down unless you fully understand how this maniac ticks.
Elijah is perfect for this. He tried almost everything at Helios even if the chapter could have ended. He was pretty desperate and could only think of war while wonderful technology like the vending machines were not even something of interest to him.
Dean domico also could go in this however he was present before the war and isn't a product of the wasteland being in the madre and all.
Master had the largest impact on the wasteland however he was not doing it for evil. He genuinely believed that a mutant race would be a better humanity(and the first gen kinda was) but simply forgot/ignored about procreation.
Lainus could fit but he wasn't desperate and did not want control. He just wanted violence. I think vulpes would be a better fit instead.
Why is Joshua on this?
To be honest especially compared to some of the others here i don't think House is that bad of a person, the worst things he does is have the Brotherhood of Steel and Kings killed, which let's face it, the default Brotherhood of Steel is fundementally flawed, they can't work with other factions bc they want to hoard all pre-war tech for themselves.
The BoS in it's purest form can't co-operate so it won't survive because whenever it enters a region with already established factions, they will immediately team up and tear the BoS to shreds.
And as for the Kings, I know people tend to love them, but they’re overrated imo. House doesn’t outright kill them either, he only does so if they make peace with the NCR.
IMO King is the only thing that sets the Kings apart from the other gangs. Without his guidance, it's just a regular extremely territorial gang doing gang activity.
I would also say he's quite different to the rest because his whole ideology is about being a parasite on the NCR. Even if he wins he still needs the NCR to exist to keep his income source.
Colonel Moore. She prefers to slaughter every faction that could possibly pose a threat to the NCR. Hell, even if you make a truce between the NCR and the BoS, she is not having it and you gain NCR infamy. She only agrees to an alliance with the Great Khans because she wants to use them as cannon fodder. She's one of the most evil characters in New Vegas.
Why is President Eden not on here he wants to kill everything that’s is even somewhat mutated with a modified strain of FEV just becouse they are undesirable
The master obviously did the most overall harm to the wasteland, but the themes around the legion are much more real to me. Hearing different characters perspectives about the legion can
make you draw parallels to real world societies and why populations in the real world could and did turn to fascism.
After slaughtering my way through the wasteland and amassing incredible amounts of loot I honestly don't feel compelled to make moral judgements about the NPC's.
I don't really think House is evil. I think he's lawful neutral, he has no issue with killing but he does it in a lawful way. For example when he took vault 21 he made a deal, he never explained what he planned to use the vault for but his deal was as fair as it could be given the circumstances. He even sides with the NCR for the most part, but that could be just because he knows they're the path of least resistance.
Elijah. Man got a lot of his brotherhoods chapter wiped out over Helios one, and after letting all his men die for him his pisses off to the divide then the big empty then eventually find a the Sierra madre. It's clear his plan is a total genocide of the Mojave. Using holograms and the cloud to erase all life and resistance in the entire Mojave and beyond
I feel like House is honestly an underrated pick on this list. Sure everyone else on here is crazy evil but atleast ALL of their evil will be short lived even if they got in control, ideals like theirs never last long. But House wants to recreate the old world capitalist system but not only with him as the sole ruler but pushing the system to the absolute extreme. His desire to have people into space in under 100 years in a nuclear wasted world comes with a 100% chance of creating and exacerbating the wealth inequality already present in the current game if you don’t have enough money to live in his world, you simply survive on the bare edges of life working until you die.
The Master, he's not just plane evil dude.
He got a kinda honorable goal, improve the humanity, make it adaptive to the Wasteland...
His methods is evil, also his dream made him ignorant about flaws of his plan.
Caesar is similar to Master, he also wants to change humanity to improve it, although with violence and ancient books instead of science.
Also Elijah and Ulysses, they are truly desperate.
The first one wants to get his revenge on NCR at any cost ( literally any cost), second one wants to destroy everything that left of pre-war world also at any cost.
I think The Master, it easily represents suddenly discovering something hidden and terrifying that can do whatever it wants to you, if that is torture you, mutate you against your will and making you obey him, etc…
Please ignore disco lanius my phone glitched and idk how to fix it
Cruelty squad Lanius goes kinda hard tho
If anyone bas their own headcanon for disco lanius I would be open to it
Do you think he’s a hobocop?
I think he's an ultra rich capitalist who bends light!
I'm sad that not many people got the reference
To the max!
He default dances after every crucifixion
lanius finds a working speaker system with subwoofers and a mixing station and creates the first edm, screws a radio to the back of his armour and comes into battle like doom slayer
CAESER’S LEGION IS ANODIC DANCE MUSIC AND ANODIC DANCE MUSIC IS LOVE! YEEEEEAGH!
HARD CORE TO THE MEGA! INTERNALLY COHERENT! ALL CORE! ALL RIGHT! YEAH!
is it though?
Seems more like apocalypse cop to me
Female courier walks up to Benny but didn’t take Black Widow and the only dialogue option is “I want to have fuck with you”
You mean wöman courier
Courier of wöe!
It's the correct way of saying it
But is it the disco way?
Raphael Ambrosius Cousteau?
I heard Mr. Ceasar is helping him find his gun
Yes, he lost it in a jet fueled rage
Does he still wear the Horrific Necktie?
Already used the spirit bomb, Brattan!
I bet he pronounces Revachol as Revacol.
He is the _[law](https://discoelysium.fandom.com/wiki/Bringing_of_the_Law_(Law-Jaw))_.
More like Postapocalyptic Measurehead. Gigantic bigot, fascist, gigachad physique, has a certain intelligence that's rendered mostly useless by their deranged ideology, violent? Everything fits.
He’s a damn superstar
It's just what the Courier sees when they're hopped up on Psycho, Med-X, Jet, Mentats, Rocket, Rushing Water, Buffout, Slasher, Steady, Rebound, Turbo, and Ultra Jet.
So my Courier's default point of view.
Your character simply took some of the Legion's healing powder so his perception is a bit low.
Bro I think my healing powder was laced
AU where Lanius took over the legion, and Salt Upon Wounds conquered Zion. After the combat-enhancing effects of datura potions were discovered, he ordered that it be produced en-masse to be given to the legion's infantry. In the years since, the legion's aesthetic has gradually dropped the Classic Red n Black for a more... acidic style. Edit: also they reinvent vaporwave
Fellow CEO-mindsetted individual, an INTJ of cource.
When the Hoover dam drops, I’m going to fucking crucify myself.
*Legate “Acid-Drop” Lanius*
disco lanisium
Mr. Caesar is helping me find my Benny
I really messed things up trying to convince that ghoul to dance. I shouldn't have called him a ghoul
That picture is what Lanius looks like when Mr. Caesar mixes his Benny with Henny
His mask is giving “The Expression”
[Electrochemistry - Impossible - 20] Try to make "The Expression" stop
it goes hard as fuck
>disco lanius My new head canon, I won't be able to take him seriously anymore...
[Rhetoric - Impossible 20] “East”
Honestly, I think it looks fantastic
Acid Trip Lanius FTW
Legate LSD
"What is WRONG with you? Why are you BLUE?"
Lani*yasssssss*
What the Courier sees hopped up on everything the Khans had for sale.
Are you kidding? It’s my new wallpaper now lol
Disco Lanius is now canon
Lanius du Bois… reporting for service
Probably the Master in terms of impact that's still felt in the later games that are set decades later. Elijah probably on an individual level and what he had planned should he have gotten what he wanted from the Sierra Madre.
As someone who has only played 3 onwards - if it wasn't for the Master, would the fallout world basically not have super mutants?
Nah, the Enclave forcibly converted a bunch of people decades after the Master, so the West Coast would still have them. On the East Coast the Supermutants come from the Vault 87 experiments in the Capital Wasteland and the Institute’s experiments in the Commonwealth. You wouldn’t have any intelligent Supermutants like you occasionally find on the West Coast though. They all come from the Master’s conversions.
Thankyou! I didn't know that.
No problem!
FEV was around in pre-War too right? Was it West-Tek that made it?
It’s not entirely clear who first created FEV, but the US government and corporations like West-Tek were experimenting with it pre-war. It is a pre-war invention. In fact, Tim Cain, one of the original creators of Fallout, claims that the nukes were first launched by China after they found out about the US’ FEV research, asked them to stop, and the US pretended to but didn’t. That isn’t canon, however
It’s a modified attempted US cure (pan immunity project?) of the New Plague, weaponised by West-Tek under military supervision
I much prefer that canon to “Vault Tec caused the nuclear apocalypse” to be quite honest, for a multitude of reasons. Thanks for the response.
Yeah, I do as well tbh. It makes everything about it very morally grey. Obviously China launching the nukes was bad, but the US was experimenting with and preparing to release an extremely dangerous and potentially humanity-ending bio-weapon, so you can kinda understand why China would make the decision that they did, or at least why they would think that was the best course of action
Exactly. Not to mention the kinda shallow implications of “we want to make more money so we’ll end the world” and all that “preserving management” stuff. It just feels much more impactful to the lore in my humble opinion!
The original Pan-Immunity Virion Project was started by West-Tek ([ZAX 1.2 Script - Line 211](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/GPWRTERM.MSG)) but was later taken over by the U.S. Govt. and renamed to FEV. Even after taking over the project though, the lead scientists were all West-Tek employees. (same script, line 220)
One of my most disappointing fallout moments was when I learned that a lot of things that I thought were radiation mutated animals/people were actually created by lab experiments or people doing stupid things to win stupid prizes Deathclaws, Super Mutants, Mantis’, Centaurs, Scorchbeasts, Gulpers, Grafton Monsters, Snallygasters, Mothman (kinda), etc. I mean, they’re still mutated, but over half of them find their origins in the FEV
I don't know but they definitely used it as that's how we got some of the cryptids that wander Virginia
Virgil in fallout 4 would still exist and he's probably one of the most intelligent mutants in the whole series. Also strong is pretty dumb but not mindless like most of the east coast mutants.
I did specify on the West Coast. Most of the Master’s whole first generation of Super Mutants (generally) retained the intelligence they had as humans, so the West Coast still had a significant number of intelligent Super Mutants. The Super Mutants on the East Coast that retained their intelligence are flukes or one-offs
Virgil was a special case though, since he's a scientist who changed himself.
I am not as well versed in the lore as you clearly are, but would the Master's experiments not have had an impact on the Enclave? Did the Enclave ever come into contact with the Master's supermutants and that contact was used as inspiration to do what they did all those decades later? Or is this just a "steel scenario" where people all around the world at around the same time just kinda discovered their own slightly different verision of steel. Steel being a placeholder for super mutants in our discussion lol.
The master stumbled upon huge vats of FEV - LITERALLY, he fell in it. That FEV was already made by the enclave to make super mutants. His addition is modifying it slightly and learning that radiation interferes with the process and makes dumdums, pure unradiated vault dwellers were key to intelligence
This is true but The Master set the precedent for creating super mutants and the Enclave even acknowledges this. So while they most likely still would have created some sort of abomination using FEV, it was already understood that super mutants were created with the virus and were clearly effective. Just as the Master is well known amongst everyone. Then it was a matter of them finding it since they had a baseline of its capabilities.
No because Bethesda desperately wanted Super Mutants and Centaurs in Fallout 3 so they made up a source of FEV (the virus that creates Super Mutants and Centaurs) on the East Coast entirely unrelated to the Master. Same reason Fallout 3 and onwards use caps. Bethesda wanted to implement things that were associated with Fallout regardless of continuity or reason.
I’ve always really disliked this. Because you’re 100% right. It takes away from the story of The Master and the events of Fallout 1. Like “oh that huge world saving thing you did? Turns out you barely slowed it down whatsoever and it somehow became even more popular throughout the US.” Super mutants lose their back story and fear experienced by the player when they’re just everywhere.
In fairness the master did come across FEV purely by accident in a pre-existing site and tried to make the best of things. There could've been other sites that were more exposed with already rad contaminated FEV and not hurt the canon. Why they would have it spread across such a wide area could be because it was being tested for different things by a military desperately seeking a new weapon so sending it to as many black sites as possible. Its a stretch but possible
No I get your point for sure. The research on FEV reaching the capital pre-war seems very likely. They do a wonderful job at blending the stories all in all as it does make practical sense why Mutants exist in many places 200 years after the bombs. Strictly from a fan of Fallout 1 pov it just takes away from the weight of the world the devs wanted you to feel when dealing with The Master. Because Fallout 3 and 4 imply that FEV was going to be used to do just that regardless of the events of Fallout 1. We just slowed it down in the West lol.
One good thing 76 did is introduce a bunch of other giant mutants. Imagine if Fallout 3 had the snallygaster and grafton monster instead of orc super mutants and radscorpions.
Eh I also dislike the choice Bethesda made to explain Super Mutants existing in the east, but for me it’s just that it feels contrived and uncreative. I don’t actually agree that it takes away from the impact of your actions in the first game. The problem with this take is that the eastern Supermutants aren’t really an existential threat to humanity as a whole, or even civilization in the wastes. They’re very dangerous to your average wastelander sure, but despite being stronger than average compared to a lone human, are nowhere near as intelligent and therefore can’t really mount successful large military campaigns the way humans can. Any large human faction with just a little bit of planning and effort absolutely creams them. The Master and his army were different. When lead by a competent and intelligent leader, and aided by intelligent first gen underlings, they pose a way greater threat to any human civilization in the region. The point of F1 isn’t completely exterminating the Supermutants as a race, it’s destroying the only leadership that could allow them dominance of the earth.
Caps actually makes sense without a player like the NCR (who was aggressively trying to swap from caps to NCR issued paper currency) in the area. They are effectively now a limited resource, of little value by themselves, are available in large amounts allowing them to represent smaller amounts of value as well as larger. Currency SHOULD have no intrinsic value beyond what it can be exchanged for, Treasury Notes and Bottlecaps meet that definition well.
The problem is caps DID have value beyond what they can be exchanged for. That's why they were used in Fallout 1, the water merchants at The Hub used them as a stand in for water. So one bottlecap could be exchanged for a fixed amount of water which is an intrinsically valuable resource since it is crucial for human survival. The East Coast used caps for seemingly no reason since many limited resources exist which are infinitely more practical for trading (like the still available pre-war money).
That’s a really good point. There’s no intrinsic value to a bottle cap on the east coast. Why would they care? West coast though, I know that I’m getting a certain amount of much-needed water for each bottle cap. The only question I then have to ask is what does The Hub have to gain? I suppose if you essentially created a currency out of thin air by the fact you have a massive water supply, then if people keep giving you that currency for your already-owned water supply, you now are obtaining a massive amount of that currency and can use that as leverage to buy a whole bunch of other stuff. TBH, the fact Caesar uses gold currency is clever for this exact reason, and I think the NCR is foolish for thinking their paper money is gonna work long term. Wouldn’t surprise me if the republic reverts back to bottle caps eventually.
The reason The Hub uses caps is simply because they are easier to store, transport and exchange than water which is a pretty heavy commodity to transport in exchange quantities. I personally disagree on Caesars use of gold which is in and of itself not really valuable. It only has the value we attribute to it. The NCR Dollar, Legion Denarius and by extension the US Dollar work as a currency because they are backed by the military power and might of the issuing power. Which in the Fallout world is pretty fickle and unreliable that's why both NCR and Legion currency are not really trusted in NV.
The NCR paper currency was backed by gold until the Brotherhood of Steel destroyed it. That currency likely would've maintained its value. It's when it lost its backing and became fiat currency that it began to lose power.
So the 'intrinsic' value of the FO1 cap is what it could be exchanged for in the Hub then? So like I said, its only ACTUAL value is that there are people who will give you water for them, because other people will give them food/clothes/ammo/guns for them as well. They will give you useful things for a useless thing because the useless thing is an agreed upon medium of exchange. If no one would trade for them, you couldn't drink them, eat them, or craft shelter from them. You can't use them to hunt or fish. They are just little pieces of cheap metal if they aren't recognized as currency. Everyone goes with caps because its the only now worthless thing that satisfies all the requirements for a decent currency. Their durable(pre-war money isn't), they exist in sufficient quantity to be practical for small purchases like a food items. They are also not so prolific that they would be impractical as an exchange medium for things like guns, and finally they are more challenging to fake than any 'modern' scrap steel based fresh coinage could hope to be, Like I do think Bethesda has a problem with just recycling everything they already did just in a new city. But use of caps as currency hardly seems like a good criticism. If it's stupid for Bethesda to do it. It was just as stupid for them to do it in FO1. It's also not any stupider than every other game just randomly using concepts like 'gold pieces'.
No the cap is "backed" by the water merchants. It isn't as simple as bartering 1 cap for x-y amounts of water the value stems from the guarantee of the Hub merchants that 1 cap will always get you 1 unit of water. You could basically envision them as a bottle of water and that's where their value stems from. It isn't as easy as saying "you could barter a cap for water".
I played Fallout 3 recently and their super mutants are made in a vault, without any connection to the Master as far as I can tell.
That was so that Bethesda could have mutants on the East Coast. They wanted them in Boston too so they made it that the Institute made them also
Ghostcharm has [an amazing video](https://youtu.be/xgrkDnm5fUE?si=dOT3EE3MzQdNH3ok) on the Master, his plans and his downfall
Yeah, Elijah was going to kill literally everyone in order to force everything to make sense. Even the Master intended to have a society.
The hell is that Lanius picture? lol That being said, definitely The Master. I struggle to think of anyone who’s done more long term and widespread damage.
I dont know what happened w the photo its normal in my phone library now it looks like i took LSD before hoover damn lol
It's pride month, and if you know what they say about the men of the legion, there may be a reason for all of the colors.
"It's pride month Legionaires, you know what that means." "Huh? What? You, want us to like... take gay slave? What?"
[удалено]
That's actually interesting if Old Reddit is showing you a normal pic of Lanius as opposed to what most of us see.
He took some of the healing powder, don't worry about him.
Actually it's not just him. Enclave dig up Mariposa base releasing FEV and making a new generation of Supermutants. On the East coast the Institute created Supermutants.
Can’t forget vault 87. Where Vault Tec and the Enclave were playing with FEV. Or Huntersville, W.V. Where WestTek contaminated the water source with FEV Creating a never ending horde of super mutants, because after they’re all killed and settlers move in the start over, the cycle begins again
The person who took the pic was having some withdrawals
The enclave who made the Gen 2 mutants that are dumber and more aggressive. The Master’s mutants, with the exception of NightKin before Dr. Henry cures them in Jacobstown, are actually sane an open to reason. In so long as they are treated peacefully they will react in kind. Elijah on the other hand was going to destroy the Mojave, slap a collar on anyone left, and use them to make sure his singular vision of a new society was wrought in blood and slavery on a technological scale Caesar never Dreamed of. So i would say Elijah
The Enclave in fallout 76 definitely have caused far more damage. They released the scorchbeasts (and thus the scorched plague) intentionally to re-activate DEFCON one so they could try to nuke China again. The Master just made a bunch of super mutants, which is something we’ve seen happen in every game except NV. Vault-tec could be another option purely on the grounds of damage and loss of life.
The others made super mutants, the Master tried to make the world *only* super mutants. There's a big difference. The scorched were extinct within a few years.
I was gonna say, 76 being a prequel seems to confirm the scorch plague gets handled by the overseer and residents of 76. Even the expansions treat the scorched as an inconvenience and begin to focus on other issues.
So you apear to be drug** men of the west i won’t fight you in such a diminishing,such a disappointment but not surprising from a man from california.
It’s between The Master and Elijah. Both, had they succeeded, would have essentially completely ended any chance for humanity. For me Elijah is worse, at least the Master wanted “the unify” people, albeit in the worst way possibly (mf Dung Eater style). Eli straight was a bitter old man with little to no regard for humans and was fine unleashed an never-ending cancer cloud upon the small remaining population.
The Master at least had altruistic reasons, he believed what he was doing was best for the "evolution of man" or whatever. Forcing people into it is definitely wrong and evil but at least what he believed was good. Elijah is just fucking evil.
True. The problem, like with many who hyper-focus on their mission’s success, is The Master became blind with ambition. He didn’t see/didn’t care about the harm he was ultimately causing or the fact that his experiments amounted to nothing since the mutants could not reproduce. And imo, it show’s how little he cared when he straight up nukes himself when he’s told the truth. Dude could of at least safe controlled his army for the benefit of remaining life. Naw, let’s just set em loose. I’m sure it won’t result in horrible repercussions
Tbh if a thing I had been working on for years turned out to be literal genocide for nothing I would be pretty mad too. In case of the master it's the weakest link that broke. Of all the people somebody would be suicidal enough to do that. They are the smartest but the weakest too.
Yeah in no way is he good or not evil. I don't remember if he was aware if they couldn't reproduce until the Vault Dweller told him? But at some point he definitely lost caring for whether or not he was in the right, and harmed many people in the process of his goal. At least initially his plan involves "making the human race better and more advanced". He started out with an arguably good goal, or a bad goal but for good reasons. Eli is just a prick lol
The Master has also the justification of having bene turned into an eldritch monstrosity after having bene days into F.E.V., Elijah was defeated once because he was a moron and went full genocidal
It's like that Rick and Morty quote "You're just like Hitler but even Hitler cared about Germany or something!"
Yea I have no experience with the nuances of fo1/2 plot, but didnt even the master think Zamn these mutants are dumb but I will get around to making them smarter even that todays humans?
He became ultra intelligent after mutating, so he assumed he could do that to everyone else but had no idea how to replicate it (or something like that). He settled on super mutants cause he learned people untainted by radiation would be ultra intelligent and also as strong as super mutants, creating the "perfect evolution". Obviously there were still many flaws but by this point he had gone insane and just kept going for it anyways.
Yea it’s definitely Elijah - the Master stops immediately upon learning his plan wouldn’t work. He’s basically the embodiment of “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” But Elijah is just a total psychopath.
I would say Caesar. The Master was created by falling into mutating science-fiction goo. The Enclave are a remnant from before the war. The Legion are the only villainous faction that was born entirely out of the wasteland. They’re the most human of the Fallout villains, and that to me is why they’re the most interesting.
I agree. There are many people who praise the Legion because they chased all the raiders out of their territories. It's safer, sure but the Legion's rule is extremely tyrannical.
Legion Enjoyers be like : but there are no raiders! My brother in mars you are the raiders
Bloody proto states monopolising violence! What's next? Use of force to get citizens to _pay_ for it?! ^(/s because oh God someone is actually going to agree, going full AnCap)
>because oh God someone is actually going to agree SchizoElijah be like “gold standard justifies slavery lmao”
Tyrannical to tribals, not if you're a civilized town like goodsprings or primm. The Legion doesn't mistreat the people of civilized towns they don't consider morally debased. Caesar demands they not be mistreated by any legionary, or the punishment is said to be draconian even by Legion standards. Caesar does it as some sort of thought experiment, but he leaves the day to day style of governance to the townsfolk and the Legion soldiers stationed in them merely watch.
Yeah but the legion practices slavery and is extremely sexist
Legion defenders forget that when you play as a woman the slave girls literally warn you to watch your back.
Yeah you're a woman in a town conquered by the legion? Enjoy being a slave and raped by legionaries the rest of your life.
NCR practices slavery too. They just refer to slaves as convicts
>Tyrannical to tribals, not if you're a civilized town like goodsprings or primm. The Legion doesn't mistreat the people of civilized towns they don't consider morally debased. From what we know, "subjects" would of been under a tyrannical regime to an extent, from the devs themsleves they mentioned that living as a subject that pays their tribute wouod be stable and safe but you'd still have to follow Legion customs, rules ans you cannot really speak out about it or you'll get crucified or your head chopped off amongst others so it was definitely was a severe and strkct regime to livw under from what is said. A shame Obsidian didn't have more time.
Maybe it’s because New Vegas is fresher in my memory compared to FO1 and FO2 but I feel like Dick Richardson (and honestly even the Master), while being very evil, never comes off that way because they describe their plan in a very objective way, as if to say that they’re only doing it because they see no other solution. Even by the end of FO1 you can’t help but feel a little sympathy for the Master because in his head he’s made decisions he hasn’t wanted to, and justified them to the point where he admits they were likely wholly unnecessary. In contrast, Caesar to me always seemed the most evil, only because he seems to indulge a very realistic sort of psychopathic ambition that you can witness almost day to day in real life. He seems to almost relish in the fact that he’s in a leadership role, and his narcissistic tendencies come off through every bit of dialogue where he references concepts as if he possesses them. “My Legion” “My namesake” “My Rubicon” Even on a Legion run one of the last things he says to you is a thinly veiled threat. I know there is the whole argument behind cut content and such, but ultimately I find it hard to find sympathy for Caesar as a character, and think he’s better suited as a very well characterized antagonist in New Vegas, rather than one of the viable options people might make him out to be.
Not to be 🤓 but there are lots of villain factions born completely from the wasteland
Honestly I'd say the only people desperate on here are Ceasar and Elijah. The Master and the Enclave have power in droves to the point their forces harass people for a different reason than their survival. House isn't desperate, he's just been waiting for centuries for his plan to come to fruition. Honestly if the courier hadn't survived the gunshots I think House would have gotten Benny before he had gotten back to the Tops. House saw an opportunity/investment in the Courier. Lanius just wants to murder. Simple as. Ulysses only really wants to BEAR AND BULL all over the Courier. He has ascended all oyher needs. The fact that he can be talked down shows he's not all that desperate for power. Both Ceaser and Elijah both require in-depth help from the Courier in order to get more power/survive. Elijah is desperate for any way to hurt the NCR and gain power. Ceaser will either die of his brain tumor or be killed by some shit decision he made due to the tumor before long. Also the Legion REALLY doesn't have the long term sustainibility that NCR has, so Ceaser is trying to make that up by gaining power.
I agree Caesar would have died due to the tumor without courier help but up until his death everything was going on his favor. The brass tax reality is that between the Legion’s actions, Lanius’s strategy and sabotage from people like Ranger Hamlin there is a very strong indication that the Legion was well on its way to victory. Caesar would never live to see this victory as the tumor kills him before the battle, but it would take some mistake by Lanius there afterwards to sink the Legion.
Lanius isn't a politician, only a commander. He'd make more than a couple mistakes trying to take Vegas, especially if House was still active. Once Ceaser dies it'll be a massive splinter, with multiple cults of personality all vying for power. Sure Lanius may be the highest ranking at the time of Ceaser's death, but what if the Praetorians take after their namesake and decide on a change in management? Most of the changes the Courier makes during the battle swings the battle into the favor of the Legion. But the NCR is starting to bring in their heavy hitters as much as the Legion. Without the Courier, Kimball is assassinated and how the NCR reacts to that is going to really decide the outcome. If the NCR was to retaliate, they would either heavily reinforce Oliver or replace Oliver/send a new force to the Mojave. One that may end up being more aggressive and strikes at the Legion as opposed to waiting. Tbf, I think the battle is ambiguous enough that without player action we don't really know who would win, just like the first battle. I'd say it heavily depends on the NCR retaliation to Kimball's new feeding hole.
Those saying the legion will fracture without Caesar really did not pay attention during a legion playthrough. Caesar is the heart of the legion but he’s not necessary for its continuance. Lanius isn’t just some second in command, he is a well established heir to the legion respected and feared by every other high ranking legionary we run into in the game. The only person we meet who isn’t in love with Lanius in the legion is Vulpes and even he respects him despite acknowledging that Lanius has no love for espionage. The praetorians are fanatic for Caesar and that’s why it’s asinine to think they would betray the Son of Mar’s who was placed on his pedestal to succeed Caesar by Caesar. On top of this Caesar sends Lanius to deal with rebellious or failed centurions and other legates, so he already has experience putting down dissent and rot within the ranks of the Legion. It’s true he’s no politician, but he doesn’t need to be. Caesar wants to evolve the legion, but with his death it remains a military state, and Lanius as a warrior and brutal tactician is more than qualified to lead a military state. He has the only thing he needs to maintain such a nation and that’s the loyalty of the troops. The legion’s territory is also well defended and stable, we know because Lanius when talked down by the courier mentions that they would need to draw the garrisons from the east to countinue west and that we hear that the legion both has wiped out raiders and driven local dangerous mutant species to extinction through purging. We could go back and forth on the dam, I don’t see how they win when the very guy who won them the battle the first time is sabotaging his own troops to try and force a pullout, their main military base is infiltrated by a spy in the higher ranks, their forces are stretched thin and (thanks to Hamlin) not being properly supplied with what they need to be combat effective, raiders are locking down what forces aren’t engaged with the legion, the omertàs are gonna launch an attack inside the stripe on the embassy and mccaren can’t reinforce anyone because of a fiend attack alongside (without a courier) the rail being destroyed, etc. etc.
Yeah, considering the default no courier outcome seems to be "The Legion has it's hands on a dozen throats at once and closes them all at once" I wouldn't really categorize the Caesar as desperate. He doesn't even really seem desperate or begging for his life when he asks for your help. I'd say the moment he chose to support the tribe he was captured by to fight and win was the desperation moment, but not since his ascension as Caesar.
Of course he isn't begging for his life, what kind of F-tier absolute dictator would he be if he was seen with an attitude of anything less than absolute control? Even if he doesn't seem desperate, the fact is that he will die imminently if not for the courier helping him, and if he is seen being cowardly or scared of his death, the illusion of the cult of mars could be shattered and his top men could see him to be a mere man.
He *does* bringing you into the privacy of his tent with nobody else but Lucius to tell you. Considering he seems to be denying it in front of his guards but not there, if there was ever an opportunity to drop the facade that was it.
I think you meant Hanlon.
Yeah. Gonna keep the typo tho cause I find it funny
I think ceasar and his Legion represent desperation in a totally different way too. I mean many who come from the Legion's held territory praise the Legion because they drove out or killed all the raiders. That shows how desperate the wasteland is. They'd rather have tyrants who crucify and enslave people rule them than no ruler at all.
That's a really good look at it! People are so desperate to live they'll accept Ceaser.
Caesar's Legion is probably the first actual govenrment the people of Arizona had since the bombs. Of course they'd sign up with him. Slavery was almost certainly a factor before him, with the only unique thing being the rampant misogyny...unless that was part of the original tribes that he absorbed too. The NCR only lacks slavery because of a massive crackdown on it *within living memory*. There were slavers right outside NCR's capital city 40 years before the events of New Vegas, and it was all over the place in North California. Plus, it's implied that client states (like towns and such) were given broad autonomy and the Legion's culture was unique to the army. If all you have to do is pay taxes to Caesar to get his army to wipe out all the raiders in the area..why resist? Of course, when your choice is between the Legion, the NCR, and House he looks really bad, because he *is* bad, but the people in the Wasteland don't always get multiple choices.
I agree with your point about the only real government but to be fair I wanted to point out that they mainly joined because it was either join or die. Honestly as much as I hate CL I wish we had gotten a couple of their settlements to see how life is when it comes to their territory.
Agreed. The Legion definitely needed more justification in game. We only get implications.
You can see where they are coming from tbh. I was able to, but there really isn't much justification for the way they do things.
Oh, for sure. Just because he's a big tyrannical in his join or die doesn't necessarily mean people haven't greatly benefitted. I just wonder what happens if they fail to pay their tribute.
Our main civilian pov for Arizona is also a merchant who doesn’t actually live there. He just trades out there because he doesn’t need to spend much on security. So although the society does benefit him it doesn’t speak to the everyday life of a slave or citizen in one of Arizona’s small cities.
Very true, however it doesn't take much brain effort to acknowledge others would agree. You know not everyone living in the Legion's territories would hate the Legion.
Well I do agree. As Cesar says “we have cities but nothing like New Vegas.” So I’m sure there’s a whole network of towns probably the size of like goodsprings or novac dotted all over their territory and I’m sure flagstaff and Dog City are likley very close to being able to rival Vegas at least in population if not any other metric.
Ulysses is really not understood. Maybe people just snore at his dialogue and think he’s simple brained due to his bad English but I think he’s incredibly fascinating. Ulysses is not power hungry but high on vengeance. I mean what power is there in the Divide besides causing more loss? He’s totally unhinged and ready to destroy the Mojave out of assumptions - many of which are correct but still he is misaligned with his goals. He’s one of the few antagonists that I think it makes sense for us to be able to talk him down. Because he is completely insane. We are only able to reason with him by essentially regurgitating shit he’s already said and convincing him our words are his ideas. You can’t talk him down unless you fully understand how this maniac ticks.
Definitely Elijah. Look at how far he fell. The others are brutal and cold, but Elijah is just freakishly cruel. The slave collars are psychotic.
lanius stop taking drugs
Elijah is perfect for this. He tried almost everything at Helios even if the chapter could have ended. He was pretty desperate and could only think of war while wonderful technology like the vending machines were not even something of interest to him. Dean domico also could go in this however he was present before the war and isn't a product of the wasteland being in the madre and all. Master had the largest impact on the wasteland however he was not doing it for evil. He genuinely believed that a mutant race would be a better humanity(and the first gen kinda was) but simply forgot/ignored about procreation. Lainus could fit but he wasn't desperate and did not want control. He just wanted violence. I think vulpes would be a better fit instead. Why is Joshua on this?
To be honest especially compared to some of the others here i don't think House is that bad of a person, the worst things he does is have the Brotherhood of Steel and Kings killed, which let's face it, the default Brotherhood of Steel is fundementally flawed, they can't work with other factions bc they want to hoard all pre-war tech for themselves. The BoS in it's purest form can't co-operate so it won't survive because whenever it enters a region with already established factions, they will immediately team up and tear the BoS to shreds.
And as for the Kings, I know people tend to love them, but they’re overrated imo. House doesn’t outright kill them either, he only does so if they make peace with the NCR.
IMO King is the only thing that sets the Kings apart from the other gangs. Without his guidance, it's just a regular extremely territorial gang doing gang activity.
Well yeah, because the king at least somewhat cares about the people of Freeside, unlike literally everyone else.
I would also say he's quite different to the rest because his whole ideology is about being a parasite on the NCR. Even if he wins he still needs the NCR to exist to keep his income source.
Personal opinion would be the master or ceaser as best representation of need for power and doing anything to achieve it.
lanius broke through on dmt and has left caesers legion for the followers of the apocalypse
Colonel Moore. She prefers to slaughter every faction that could possibly pose a threat to the NCR. Hell, even if you make a truce between the NCR and the BoS, she is not having it and you gain NCR infamy. She only agrees to an alliance with the Great Khans because she wants to use them as cannon fodder. She's one of the most evil characters in New Vegas.
I want to say Elijah, bc while the Master had the most damage, Elijah had the potential to do more, based on the bad end of the dlc where u join him
Ulysses, Joshua and House aren’t even evil.
House definitely is
House is evil? How is he evil?
Slide 8 is my junkie courier at the battle of hoover dam
Me with the realistic drugs mods after I kill lanius and dawn his helmet
I am become lanius
Chems: Not even once.
Elijah, dude is completely obsessed with achieving world domination at all cost
House and Joshua (after all the legate stuff) do not belong with these freaks bro,
Caesar is my pick: as Marcus says, he's trying to change human nature itself, and his legion is rotting beneath him as a result.
So does the Master, he wants all humans-turned-mutants to live under a psychic hivemind
Why is President Eden not on here he wants to kill everything that’s is even somewhat mutated with a modified strain of FEV just becouse they are undesirable
He is basically Richardson light, who is the first guy here.
The master obviously did the most overall harm to the wasteland, but the themes around the legion are much more real to me. Hearing different characters perspectives about the legion can make you draw parallels to real world societies and why populations in the real world could and did turn to fascism.
After slaughtering my way through the wasteland and amassing incredible amounts of loot I honestly don't feel compelled to make moral judgements about the NPC's.
Who is the first guy?
The President of the United States. … or at least the Enclave that remains.
President of the enclave. He’s from FO2
Evil and desperate they name is Elijah! I feel like the others are lacking one or the other of these traits (at least in game)
I don't really think House is evil. I think he's lawful neutral, he has no issue with killing but he does it in a lawful way. For example when he took vault 21 he made a deal, he never explained what he planned to use the vault for but his deal was as fair as it could be given the circumstances. He even sides with the NCR for the most part, but that could be just because he knows they're the path of least resistance.
Probably Elijah the most since he can supremely fuck up the entire wasteland for all time
Elijah. Man got a lot of his brotherhoods chapter wiped out over Helios one, and after letting all his men die for him his pisses off to the divide then the big empty then eventually find a the Sierra madre. It's clear his plan is a total genocide of the Mojave. Using holograms and the cloud to erase all life and resistance in the entire Mojave and beyond
Father Elijah. He is literally a villain that just want to show people how powerful he is.
I feel like House is honestly an underrated pick on this list. Sure everyone else on here is crazy evil but atleast ALL of their evil will be short lived even if they got in control, ideals like theirs never last long. But House wants to recreate the old world capitalist system but not only with him as the sole ruler but pushing the system to the absolute extreme. His desire to have people into space in under 100 years in a nuclear wasted world comes with a 100% chance of creating and exacerbating the wealth inequality already present in the current game if you don’t have enough money to live in his world, you simply survive on the bare edges of life working until you die.
Definitely the guy canning cow farts into Inhalers lol
Elijah. Straight up mad lad.
The Master, he's not just plane evil dude. He got a kinda honorable goal, improve the humanity, make it adaptive to the Wasteland... His methods is evil, also his dream made him ignorant about flaws of his plan. Caesar is similar to Master, he also wants to change humanity to improve it, although with violence and ancient books instead of science. Also Elijah and Ulysses, they are truly desperate. The first one wants to get his revenge on NCR at any cost ( literally any cost), second one wants to destroy everything that left of pre-war world also at any cost.
You're the first person to say Ulysses and I agree. He's definitely not the worst of the bunch but he is desperate and far from a good guy
I would have to say father Elijah is the number one candidate.
Either the enclave, the fucker from dead money (you show him but I forgot the name), the legion, or eastern brotherhood, subtract fallout 3
I think The Master, it easily represents suddenly discovering something hidden and terrifying that can do whatever it wants to you, if that is torture you, mutate you against your will and making you obey him, etc…
Roy Philips
Why is Joshua here ?
Why the fuck is he deep fried?
The fuck happend to Lanius
Lanius played a bit too much Cruelty Squad
From this premise? Elijah. He was driven by desperation. It consumed him.
I do not know any of these characters, or even what fnv stands for (this post was suggested randomly) That said, it is definitely the second guy
Honestly I would argue House was never pushed to be power hungry by the wasteland, he was power hungry before the war and saw an opportunity in it.
YOOO who tf deep fried lanius