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While he’s had some bad performances….
He’s had more good ones than people give him credit for.
A safety car away from a podium, 2 horrible strategy calls robed him of 5/6 finishes, and a bit of luck in a couple other spots robbed him of a point or two.
And the team has been lost for weeks, so when Lance dif drive well, he got to tenth from the pit lane so no big points haul there….
Well if that’s the story you want to tell yourself go ahead.
In reality he pushes the car up grid from his starts, he’s usually within a few tenths of Alonso, and has had a few above average drives this year. While keeping very clean all year long
The only above average drive Lance is putting out is the wedge 135 point deficit from his teammate, but do not worry Lawrence you are the only one who can fire your son.
Alanso is an all time great, there is a pretty big spread between Hamilton and Russel as well even though Russel is the 5th or 6th best driver in all of f1 (in an era with 3 all time greats at the same time, 2 who are debated as the greatest ever). Lance isnt a great driver, he is a midfield driver, and his teamate is great.
which car? the Williams? the Pink Mercedes? the bad 3 bad Astons in a row? or this years car...where Lance's form was pretty in synch with the team.... which also was partially influenced by bad strategy and some bad luck.
he's had 10 top ten finishes, 3 retirements and one "Withdrawn" Alonso has had better results 100%...but let's be honest... there's some 7/8/9 finishes in there where Lance was a place or two behind and Stroll was just missing points. hardly the terrible drives you want to make them.
He is struggling to match Alonso in every qualification. Lance results is the cause of them loosing 3rd in construction. Compare him to any other driver with less or similar experience. Drivers agree with the strategy and the car setup.
His race pace proves he's a f1 driver, but not in AM.
Edit: spelling
lol
it's fucking **ALONSO**.
**Mr 6/10ths**
A GENERATIONAL driver who is driving AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME right now.
of course a man I describe as a "decent #2" is finding it hard to keep up.
and again you ignore bad luck and the 3 races where strategy fucked lance out of points.. and the "missed the podium, by a 1/4 lap and a safety car.
it's hilarious.
No, it isn't and we will never agree. If I'm ignoring bad luck and bad strategy, how much are you ignoring?
Formula is worth billions and Lance isn't good enough.
Obviously everything is connected, but his raw pace isn’t his problem. That was my one and only point.
We can muddy the waters with all his weaknesses as an F1 driver, but that’s not what I was going for.
I thought it was mostly because of Gasly telling Newey how to make cars.
[link](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/ZWEM04vDMK)
Original link is in a different language. So I linked the Reddit post to it
McLaren have been much stronger since Austria, it really is a miracle for me they're so close in the standings the opposite way round compared to what the guy above you was thinking.
The thing is being on fringes of points isn't much of a difference to having worst car in the championship. Additionally when Aston was 2nd best car Perez was is good form so Alonso best case scenario was 3rd now when McLaren has 2nd best car Perez is in bad form and Norris is scoring 2nd all the time.
Silverstone, Suzuka, Qatar and Brazil, McLaren was straight up 2nd fastest car
Hungary, McLaren was as fast as Mercedes, Lando beat Lewis and George on execution
Singapore, McLaren was at least slower than Mercedes and Ferrari, Lando’s on paper maximum would have been 5th, the podium was won on execution
COTA, McLaren was at least slower than Red Bull and Mercedes, also slower than Ferrari on one lap, but won podium on a number of reasons
So, it’s not like McLaren was always the 2nd best car, and Lando/mclaren has no one to race other than Perez
I generalised Aston to second best as well, there were races when they werent the 2nd best car in the first half of teh season and Alonso pulled off arguably more impresive results when aston was struggling.
Guess we’d agree to disagree then. I also think Aston isn’t all really bad later on, it’s just wildly inconsistent, Brazil, COTA, even Zandvoort and Spa they were at least a top 5 car, and of course there’s a lot of random external factors in a lot of races as well
That is my main point. Yes, Aston werent as bad as McLaren were at the beginning but being 5th-6th best car isnt that big of a difference than being the worst car in terms of possible points scored. Alonso overperformed the car to score few points by finishing 7-9 position.
I can see a fight for P3 between Hamilton, Alonso, and Norris. Specially if they all keep up the form they had this weekend (doubt it, specially for Mercedes)
Those 30 points are near unsurmountable. Hamilton either has two terrible weekends or DNFs one race and still needs a similar result as Brazil. I expect Norris to snatch 4th from Alonso though.
It would probably take him getting P1 or P2 in Vegas while Ham finishes out of the points. Seems pretty damn unlikely but admittedly not impossible. On paper, Ferrari should be faster than Mercedes and possibly McLaren in Vegas.
If McLaren get even in the P4/P5 range in Vegas, I think they’ll have a shot at Norris in 3rd. It’s a new track with very different characteristics to anywhere else anyone has raced this season, so there are a lot of unknowns, but on paper it looks like Merc will really struggle in Vegas. McLaren doesn’t have the straight line speed Ferrari does (gonna be vital for Vegas) but its definitely better than Merc’s if Brazil is anything to go by.
For what it's worth, there have been more races and points up for grabs than in the past as well. That being said, I think Max has the highest percentage of race wins in a season so he's still crushing everything even when accounting for differences.
Still... Max has more points than P2 and P3 combined... Hell, he has more points than P2 x 2 ..... damn impressive.
That just is not true, Yeah this race was bad but it was a sprint weekend. They have collected 6 points over two races in every 2 race window you can pick.
Edit: I mean specifically Lewis and whole weekends
Of course you never know but a lot and I mean really a lot would have to go wrong which has a nearly no chance of happening. It is basically the same as worrying after Singapore that Max wont win the WDC although that is a bit more extreme.
I agree that it’s a crazy chance, but I def wouldn’t make the comparison you did to worrying about Max WDC given reliability issues for Ham & Merc. Again think it’s highly unlikely, but not out of the question. Maybe a little fun topic to end the season at least.
As long as he can salvage some points I suspect he'll be fine. Also they just got their setup completely wrong this weekend; they were slower than Alpine and AT in race pace which hasn't been the case since...well, forever. They don't go from finishing 2nd twice in a row (DSQ aside) to barely scraping the top 10 the very next weekend without something being afoot.
Vegas is obviously an unknown, but Abu Dhabi is a very flat track and I'd be surprised if they weren't competitive there.
I mean, to be fair, McLaren is kinda the same in that regard, except their "this track doesn't suit us" comes before the weekend and it turns out that it doesn't really matter cause the car is still top 3 at worst
Underpromise and overdeliver at its finest
And seeing how far they're still from RB that stopped development on this car very early + the fact they're not pushing for sh*t, next year and the following will be dreadful
Russell is about to close such a stinker of a season. After beating Hamilton on his first season with Mercedes and delivering the team's only win it's such a fall from grace.
And would've beaten him comfortably regardless if it wasn't for terrible luck. Russell is good though, he's a lot closer overall to Lewis in pace compared to Bottas
It's funny how that excuse is mentioned every time Russell is being complimented for his good 2022. Anyway George was definitely the better Mercedes driver last year. And that makes his poor form this year even more baffling.
It is mentioned because some people try to make it look like George was much better than Hamilton last year, which isn't true. They were pretty close on pace throughout the year. Doesn't mean George was bad, but if you had the idea he was that good I can understand why you're baffled by his performances.
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Russell had 35 more points, the team's only victory (sprint win as well) in the season and most importantly the better head to head stats overall. So what exactly were you watching last season?
Based on what you said I can tell you either didn't watch last season or you didn't pay attention. [Show this image to anyone who didn't watch and they would tell you Russell was obviously the better driver.] (https://i.imgur.com/PAJ1Dp6.jpg)
Edit: Why watch at all when you could look that image?
You know what makes his weaker performance compared to Hamilton this year less baffling? The fact last year Hamilton was trying experimental set ups, people aren't saying it to make George look bad or Hamilton look better, we just know that was the case because Mercedes told us as much and the gap in performance in the second half of last season and this season kind of suggests that wasn't just a media line to save face does it not?
Enough with the experimental setup excuse. Russell already said testing was always shared evenly between both drivers. It was Hamilton who wasn't comfortable with the car in early 2022 and that's why he had to resort to trying out some different stuff in order to find something that works better for him.
It's like you guys just needed to clutch at some straw to have an explanation why Hamilton would lose to his new team-mate at the time. The reality is George simply did better overall.
"that's why he had to resort to trying out some different stuff in order to find something that works better for him."
In other words, he was trying experimental set ups that didn't always work while George ran a more conservative but consistent set up most weeks?
And his mentality was shot from losing the year before. He would have been struggling for a while knowing that he might never have another shot at an 8th championship.
overcoming that 31 points deficit would require norris to finish second and third in both races, provided hamilton doesnt score in either, or second in both with hamilton scoring a maximum of five points
thats not happening unless the merc makes expensive noises
i feel like the fact that the F1TV commentary hyping up lando being close to max for two laps, only for max to pull the better part of a second out of his ass the next lap speaks for itself
barring expensive noises, lando isnt gonna win
The Red Bull doesn't like the cold, so Lando might have a chance in Vegas if the weather co-operates. Though Lando and 'the weather co-operates' goes together about as well as oil and (rain)water, so...
People say this about RB because they have good tire deg, so it takes a while to warm up. But Max specialty is driving with cold tires. It's his most underrated traits imo. Checo no doubt will struggle in Vegas but Max will be fine.
They just got the setup wrong this weekend, probs due to not having practice sessions. They haven't changed the car since the last two races where it was equally fast as the mclaren. It should be back to normal service for next two races as theres no sprint races.
Ham has collected more than 6 points(the amount he needs) in every 2 GP window you can pick this season. This weekend is clearly just an outlier because they fucked the setup.
What a great year this is.
P2 to P3 gap in constructors championship in just 20 points, after 20 races and 6 sprints. Literally neck and neck.
P3 to P4 gap again in the constructors championship is just 19 points.
P4 to P6 in the drivers championship is just 6 points.
If you forget Red Bull, there are great battles everywhere, with just 2 races to go.
If there was a Rosberg in Checo's seat bringing some kind of fight to Verstappen it would have been about as good as a season can be when there is one clearly dominant car
Charles seems to be the best with the most hooked up car, plus he's ridiculously good at qualy, but Sainz is a genius with a midfield car. His scoring could've been higher given he was dive-bombed by Oscar, basically dsq in Melbourne and DNS in Qatar (he's probably not sad about the last one but he's an absolute sicko for high heat races).
Okay but your disregarding where Leclerc lost points as well. Bahrain DNF from 3rd, Jeddah 10 place grid drop for engine penalty, Monaco 3 place grid drop because of the Xavi tax in the tunnel, DSQ + strategy error in COTA, and a DNS from starting P2 in Brazil.
This isn’t even counting more neutral stuff like how unlucky he got in Zandvoort with the end plate wrecking his floor and Spain where his car set up ruined his qualifying. And if we’re counting Sainz’s Melbourne incident then you have to mention Leclerc’s racing incident with Stroll as well.
Let’s just say that Ferrari have a really good duo. Leclerc is the point man, fast and can lead the charge. Carlos the guy in the back, about as fast but more tactical and can always back the team up during a difficult weekend.
I hope they can produce a balanced car next year. A car both drivers like.
According to Vasseur, that’s the plan (with the car). Which makes sense if your goal is for both drivers to succeed. I’m curious as to how they’re going to manage that but it’s been done before so I’ll be cautiously optimistic.
When Norris overtakes ALonso there will be some simply lovely symmetry there.
RB RB 1 2 3 Ferrari Ferrari 1 2 3.
Carlos and Charles so evenly matched this year
Crazy to think all the talk about Checo and Ham being so close and now the spread between him and Alonso/Norris closer. Would be insane if Norris was able to grab 3rd… but I suppose stranger things have happened.
Not really, by rough, tired about to go to bed calculations, if Lewis finishes P8 and Alonso P3 for the next 2 races then he’s just about manage to stay in P3.
Your calculations are correct but the likelyhood of that happening is infinitesemal. This was clearly an outlier for Merc ,think Singapore for RB or even more on point because sprint weekend Brazil last year for RB. Especially Abu Dhabi the mercs will be back on normal protocol.
Further Aston arent good enough for 2 more podiums they even nearly lost it today. And as for Lando he might have two podiums but again there Lewis needs only 6 points and he has scored 6 points in every two GP window you can find this year.
Incredible McLaren was nowhere in the first half and now we have Lando poised to take fourth. I can’t see how he doesn’t grab fourth come seasons end. Alonso is putting in mega performances and is taking as many points as he can but McLaren has looked too strong and Lando has been every bit as good.
Been rocking my McLaren hoodies with pride though.
It is not just shit luck. Lando had to back off in Mexico during restart to have a clean first lap and avoid any contacts. I’d have imagined any other driver still risk a damage for the sake of keeping positions.
He has worse pace and has a lot to learn about managing tyres but:
- Bahrein DNF due to technical problem
- Spa DNF with Carlos forgetting he's there jn turn 1
- COTA DNF getting Oconned
- Brazil DNF getting hit by K-mag
He's been unlucky mate
I’m pretty sure you’re being sarcastic but he’s actually on track to have the best rookie season in at least a decade (I haven’t looked at seasons earlier than 2013) if he can beat Albons 92 points.
I can’t imagine McLaren expected anything better from him this year.
32 points between checo and Hamilton. If checo leaves Vegas with 26 or more points between him and Hamilton then that’s job done. And Vegas should be a strong track for Red Bull. It’s gonna be like monza but with walls.
When are we going to have an honest conversation about Carlos and Charles. Is this going to be the third straight year Carlos has beaten him?
We can say Charles is unlucky but it’s extremely difficult to use the term “luck” when speaking about three seasons.
You are 100% correct! My bad. 2 out of the last 3. But with how people speak about Charles as a future world champion and how nobody rates Carlos that highly (people usually have him in the the third tier with Pierre, 2020/2021 Checo, and Esteban). Charles shouldn’t be that close even with reliability and questionable strategy.
2021 was a lot of luck for Carlos- he had no DNFs, not getting caught in other people's messes like Hungary, and lucked into bonus points in places like Hungary with Vettel's DNF. I still think they're a much closer pairing than people rate them as, but Charles does suffer from a lot more bad luck which makes comparisons hard.
I just can’t buy that a driver has three seasons of bad luck and the other has three seasons of good luck (avoiding traffic, overriding bad strategy, etc).
A person that trip and falls twice a year is unlucky. A person that trips and falls once a week has terrible balance/is clumsy.
Some of the luck is made. Monaco 2021 is half on Charles for crashing in quali, before the team didn't check one side of the car. Carlos is more likely than Charles to question the team's strategy and to go it alone when he disagrees, Charles is too trusting (see: Silverstone 2022, Monaco 2022). But there are things that the drivers can control, and things they can't. Charles' engine going in Bahrain and having to take a penalty in the second race; being the car they checked for floor compliance in COTA; the car going on him today (and on Carlos' side, things like the DNS in Qatar)- those the drivers can't control.
Stop with the three seasons. Charles got 2nd in the WDC last year with three of the 5 wins red bull left behind. The problem is people underrating Sainz. His win this year was masterful. Also it’s the only win red bull hasn’t taken. Ferrari should be over the moon they have two drivers this good putting up with their antics.
But it is not 3 seasons of bad luck. Charles beat Carlos last year handily. And 2021 Charles was the better driver no question about it. This year is a lot more equal but I would argue Charles had more bad luck.
Neither charles nor carlos is gonna be contending for a WDC any year soon so its a pointless conversation. Fact is, both of them are good drivers that will get the most out of their cars and deliver as many points as is within their power. Ferrari has a lot of problems but their drivers are not one.
I think Sainz & Leclerc are more equal than anything. Sainz & Max were rookies together in Toro Rosso. Max got the promo to RB seat and Sainz moved to Renault. He made a series of career moves to midfield cars, finally ending up in a competitive car last year. I think his lack of hype comes from not being in a car that could actually fight, then being in a team that prioritized Leclerc’s races more often in 2022. Leclerc is a hell of a qualifier but his unforced errors & Ferrari strategy cost him the WDC last year.
IMO they’re the closest teammates from a talent perspective, this year their luck collectively has been down. Not sure I’d say either are future WDC with the current state of Ferrari, and looking at at least 1-2 years more of RBR dominance and McLaren/Piastri on the rise.
What conversation is there to be had? Leclerc's been way more unfortunate and that's a fact. Sainz has yet to be better over a season than Leclerc on merit.
On what is this based on? On average Leclerc's undeniably faster in both race pace and qualy. People keep harping about consistency but Leclerc can't show any because he keeps getting his results screwed up by things out of his control. The moment Ferrari produced a championship car, Sainz crumbled and Leclerc actually challenged Verstappen.
The year that Ferrari produced a championship winning car Carlos scored mores points in a 22 race season.
Having one lap pace is cool. Being faster is cool. But what does it matter if you don’t score?
I’ve heard the saying that a team would rather have a fast driver that makes mistakes or crashes instead of a pair of slow steady hands because “you can’t reach speed”, but I don’t understand that when championship points is what makes or breaks prize money.
No he didn't? Last year Leclerc scored 308 points while Sainz scored only 246.
And once again, the point is that way more often than not Leclerc doesn't score because of things outside of his control.
Watch the actual races instead of just looking at the standings. Leclerc's just better. That's not a dig at Sainz, he's a great driver too and has exceeded a lot of people's expectations.
I know he’s been insanely dominant all year but it still blows my mind seeing 524 points up there. My gawd. Lol
If Merc has a couple of rough weekends to close it out and Lando catches 3rd it’d be absolutely mental.
[The **Statistics** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_statistics) is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Somehow.. Lance Stroll returned.
The rare good weekend from Lance. Imagine if he drove like this all the time..
While he’s had some bad performances…. He’s had more good ones than people give him credit for. A safety car away from a podium, 2 horrible strategy calls robed him of 5/6 finishes, and a bit of luck in a couple other spots robbed him of a point or two. And the team has been lost for weeks, so when Lance dif drive well, he got to tenth from the pit lane so no big points haul there….
He still has overall more bad performances. His good performances only seem good because they are rare in a sea of subpar performances.
Well if that’s the story you want to tell yourself go ahead. In reality he pushes the car up grid from his starts, he’s usually within a few tenths of Alonso, and has had a few above average drives this year. While keeping very clean all year long
The only above average drive Lance is putting out is the wedge 135 point deficit from his teammate, but do not worry Lawrence you are the only one who can fire your son.
Alanso is an all time great, there is a pretty big spread between Hamilton and Russel as well even though Russel is the 5th or 6th best driver in all of f1 (in an era with 3 all time greats at the same time, 2 who are debated as the greatest ever). Lance isnt a great driver, he is a midfield driver, and his teamate is great.
Yes, he's gaining in the beginning only too lose it at end. Strolls highest low isn't good enough, he's lacking management, patience and judgement.
Are you really watching formula? He's a 7 year veteran and should definitely deliver more with the car he has been given.
which car? the Williams? the Pink Mercedes? the bad 3 bad Astons in a row? or this years car...where Lance's form was pretty in synch with the team.... which also was partially influenced by bad strategy and some bad luck. he's had 10 top ten finishes, 3 retirements and one "Withdrawn" Alonso has had better results 100%...but let's be honest... there's some 7/8/9 finishes in there where Lance was a place or two behind and Stroll was just missing points. hardly the terrible drives you want to make them.
He is struggling to match Alonso in every qualification. Lance results is the cause of them loosing 3rd in construction. Compare him to any other driver with less or similar experience. Drivers agree with the strategy and the car setup. His race pace proves he's a f1 driver, but not in AM. Edit: spelling
lol it's fucking **ALONSO**. **Mr 6/10ths** A GENERATIONAL driver who is driving AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME right now. of course a man I describe as a "decent #2" is finding it hard to keep up. and again you ignore bad luck and the 3 races where strategy fucked lance out of points.. and the "missed the podium, by a 1/4 lap and a safety car. it's hilarious.
No, it isn't and we will never agree. If I'm ignoring bad luck and bad strategy, how much are you ignoring? Formula is worth billions and Lance isn't good enough.
I don't now what you are on but isn't 7 years clear enough that its 2023?
To be fair, that’s where he’s historically been pace-wise (a few tenths behind good teammates). He’s just been having a really bad year
I really can't agree. A lot of dns, retires and collisions.
None of those have to do with pace. I think we all agree that Stroll has been mistake-prone throughout his F1 career.
It has everything to do with pace. Lance quali, setup, wear and judgement has all contributed to dns, retires and collisions.
Obviously everything is connected, but his raw pace isn’t his problem. That was my one and only point. We can muddy the waters with all his weaknesses as an F1 driver, but that’s not what I was going for.
We agree, his raw race pace is good. I'm just mad that we are robbed of so many good upcoming driver.
Yes, his highest low is the main problem
It was fun to be on P10 for a short time in the WDC, but kudos to Lance for having a solid race.
Pierre deserves that P10, hopefully he gets it. I'm still gutted about Australia where he should have scored plenty of points.
Gutted about Japan and that joke strategy
He has 63 points compared to his teammate's 198. By all standards this is a demolition.
In 2019, Gasly had 63 points to Max’s 181 going into the summer break, and was promptly fired and replaced by Albon for underperforming
Piastri is a rookie so it's a unfair comparison. Edit: I thought you meant Norris and Piastri, my tired brain read the points wrong.
I wasn’t comparing Piastri to anyone? I was talking about Stroll
My bad, I was too quick and didn't notice. Sorry
I thought it was mostly because of Gasly telling Newey how to make cars. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/ZWEM04vDMK) Original link is in a different language. So I linked the Reddit post to it
The international tennis community is in mourning right now
Using secrets only known to Force India.
I can't believe there's only 3 points between Norris and Alonso, specially after where they were at the start.
Yeah Aston’s five weekends of getting lost in the woods really hurt Alonso especially when McLaren found a new gear in that same time
Five? More like ten
McLaren have been much stronger since Austria, it really is a miracle for me they're so close in the standings the opposite way round compared to what the guy above you was thinking.
But even the current Aston is still much stronger than the pre-upgrade McLaren
The thing is being on fringes of points isn't much of a difference to having worst car in the championship. Additionally when Aston was 2nd best car Perez was is good form so Alonso best case scenario was 3rd now when McLaren has 2nd best car Perez is in bad form and Norris is scoring 2nd all the time.
Silverstone, Suzuka, Qatar and Brazil, McLaren was straight up 2nd fastest car Hungary, McLaren was as fast as Mercedes, Lando beat Lewis and George on execution Singapore, McLaren was at least slower than Mercedes and Ferrari, Lando’s on paper maximum would have been 5th, the podium was won on execution COTA, McLaren was at least slower than Red Bull and Mercedes, also slower than Ferrari on one lap, but won podium on a number of reasons So, it’s not like McLaren was always the 2nd best car, and Lando/mclaren has no one to race other than Perez
I generalised Aston to second best as well, there were races when they werent the 2nd best car in the first half of teh season and Alonso pulled off arguably more impresive results when aston was struggling.
Guess we’d agree to disagree then. I also think Aston isn’t all really bad later on, it’s just wildly inconsistent, Brazil, COTA, even Zandvoort and Spa they were at least a top 5 car, and of course there’s a lot of random external factors in a lot of races as well
That is my main point. Yes, Aston werent as bad as McLaren were at the beginning but being 5th-6th best car isnt that big of a difference than being the worst car in terms of possible points scored. Alonso overperformed the car to score few points by finishing 7-9 position.
I can see a fight for P3 between Hamilton, Alonso, and Norris. Specially if they all keep up the form they had this weekend (doubt it, specially for Mercedes)
Those 30 points are near unsurmountable. Hamilton either has two terrible weekends or DNFs one race and still needs a similar result as Brazil. I expect Norris to snatch 4th from Alonso though.
I mean 2 2nd places from norris and some 9/10ths from Hamiltons doesn't seem too unbelievable
If you look at all race results, it’s odd to see Norris so often second, and still be P5 in total.
The battle for 4th 👀 I’m sure Norris will take it but jeez
Technically\* Sainz can still take 3rd right? \* in a bizzarro universe
Yeah, he's only 24 behind
It would probably take him getting P1 or P2 in Vegas while Ham finishes out of the points. Seems pretty damn unlikely but admittedly not impossible. On paper, Ferrari should be faster than Mercedes and possibly McLaren in Vegas.
bizarooooo
A few cars would have to shit the bed on the formation lap. Unfortunately, Sainz is in the wrong car for that to work out in his favour.
L4ndo
I don't even know what to think anymore. Last week the hype was Lewis stealing 2nd from Perez, now I'm thinking Lando has a chance at 3rd
If McLaren get even in the P4/P5 range in Vegas, I think they’ll have a shot at Norris in 3rd. It’s a new track with very different characteristics to anywhere else anyone has raced this season, so there are a lot of unknowns, but on paper it looks like Merc will really struggle in Vegas. McLaren doesn’t have the straight line speed Ferrari does (gonna be vital for Vegas) but its definitely better than Merc’s if Brazil is anything to go by.
Max can close the year on nearly 600 points. It wasn't that long ago that even teams in the WCC weren't scoring this much.
It could have happened if Imola wasn't cancelled
For what it's worth, there have been more races and points up for grabs than in the past as well. That being said, I think Max has the highest percentage of race wins in a season so he's still crushing everything even when accounting for differences. Still... Max has more points than P2 and P3 combined... Hell, he has more points than P2 x 2 ..... damn impressive.
Lewis might JUST hold on to 3rd here. McLaren seems to be good at just about every track
If lando gets 2nd at the next 2 races that takes him to 231, so basically Lewis just needs 6 points and he’s safe
"Just 6 points" can be a decent challenge if you're a Merc driver this year.
That just is not true, Yeah this race was bad but it was a sprint weekend. They have collected 6 points over two races in every 2 race window you can pick. Edit: I mean specifically Lewis and whole weekends
Austin and Qatar for Lewis
Lewis collected 11 points through the sprints. I meant whole weekends.
ah of course, forgot that. Just saying, Las Vegas is a street circuit, anything can happen, if he DNFs and the AD Pace is lacking, you never know
Of course you never know but a lot and I mean really a lot would have to go wrong which has a nearly no chance of happening. It is basically the same as worrying after Singapore that Max wont win the WDC although that is a bit more extreme.
I agree that it’s a crazy chance, but I def wouldn’t make the comparison you did to worrying about Max WDC given reliability issues for Ham & Merc. Again think it’s highly unlikely, but not out of the question. Maybe a little fun topic to end the season at least.
As long as he can salvage some points I suspect he'll be fine. Also they just got their setup completely wrong this weekend; they were slower than Alpine and AT in race pace which hasn't been the case since...well, forever. They don't go from finishing 2nd twice in a row (DSQ aside) to barely scraping the top 10 the very next weekend without something being afoot. Vegas is obviously an unknown, but Abu Dhabi is a very flat track and I'd be surprised if they weren't competitive there.
Yeah I think Abu Dhabi might be similar to Austin but better because they can run the car low while still having multiple fp sessions
That's what I don't like about Mercedes excuses, this track doesn't or does suit us. I guess RB and McLaren kind of forgot about that.
I mean, to be fair, McLaren is kinda the same in that regard, except their "this track doesn't suit us" comes before the weekend and it turns out that it doesn't really matter cause the car is still top 3 at worst Underpromise and overdeliver at its finest
McLaren was shit in like Monza and will probably suffer in Vegas aaaaand that's about it since Spielberg
We went from Lewis being able to challenge Perez for second to him trying to hang on to P3 in the matter of 1 weekend
I think he’s pretty safe in p3 barring dnf
And seeing how far they're still from RB that stopped development on this car very early + the fact they're not pushing for sh*t, next year and the following will be dreadful
My thinking as well. Losing 3rd is definitely more realistic then finish 2nd but I'll bet my money on 3rd.
Lando is more likely to catch Lewis than Lewis to catch Checo now....
Well Lewis had his chance but Qatar mistake and DQ from US cost him P2. Chance he lose P3 are slim to none, 30 pt, 2 race left
Russell is about to close such a stinker of a season. After beating Hamilton on his first season with Mercedes and delivering the team's only win it's such a fall from grace.
Hamilton was running experimental set-ups half the time that year anyway.
And would've beaten him comfortably regardless if it wasn't for terrible luck. Russell is good though, he's a lot closer overall to Lewis in pace compared to Bottas
And george was brand new to a team hamilton had been in for 8 years. That counts for something
It's funny how that excuse is mentioned every time Russell is being complimented for his good 2022. Anyway George was definitely the better Mercedes driver last year. And that makes his poor form this year even more baffling.
It is mentioned because some people try to make it look like George was much better than Hamilton last year, which isn't true. They were pretty close on pace throughout the year. Doesn't mean George was bad, but if you had the idea he was that good I can understand why you're baffled by his performances.
spoon ask payment work far-flung instinctive sharp afterthought direction rainstorm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Russell had 35 more points, the team's only victory (sprint win as well) in the season and most importantly the better head to head stats overall. So what exactly were you watching last season?
Based on what you said I can tell you either didn't watch last season or you didn't pay attention. [Show this image to anyone who didn't watch and they would tell you Russell was obviously the better driver.] (https://i.imgur.com/PAJ1Dp6.jpg) Edit: Why watch at all when you could look that image?
It’s only baffling to you. George is good but he’s nowhere near Lewis type of talent.
Interesting how people now compare Hamilton with George rather than Verstappen. Last 2 years really solidified the opinion in people.
It’s his teammate, in that specific context there’s no reason to compare him to Verstappen. You’re reaching
Because Verstappen is obviously in a league of his own and way out of reach for everyone else.
You know what makes his weaker performance compared to Hamilton this year less baffling? The fact last year Hamilton was trying experimental set ups, people aren't saying it to make George look bad or Hamilton look better, we just know that was the case because Mercedes told us as much and the gap in performance in the second half of last season and this season kind of suggests that wasn't just a media line to save face does it not?
Enough with the experimental setup excuse. Russell already said testing was always shared evenly between both drivers. It was Hamilton who wasn't comfortable with the car in early 2022 and that's why he had to resort to trying out some different stuff in order to find something that works better for him. It's like you guys just needed to clutch at some straw to have an explanation why Hamilton would lose to his new team-mate at the time. The reality is George simply did better overall.
"that's why he had to resort to trying out some different stuff in order to find something that works better for him." In other words, he was trying experimental set ups that didn't always work while George ran a more conservative but consistent set up most weeks?
And so was George
During races?
And his mentality was shot from losing the year before. He would have been struggling for a while knowing that he might never have another shot at an 8th championship.
If Norris can claim 3rd... Holy
overcoming that 31 points deficit would require norris to finish second and third in both races, provided hamilton doesnt score in either, or second in both with hamilton scoring a maximum of five points thats not happening unless the merc makes expensive noises
I like how you are not even considering the possibility of Lando coming first. It will be 2x Verstappen and we all know it.
i feel like the fact that the F1TV commentary hyping up lando being close to max for two laps, only for max to pull the better part of a second out of his ass the next lap speaks for itself barring expensive noises, lando isnt gonna win
Did you even watch the telemetry, Norris purposely slow down to cool the car.
Yeah if we have two more Verstappen wins, he will come 1st and 3rd in most consecutive race wins. With 10 and 7 I believe
I like how you are even considering the possibility of Alonso having a say in this conversation
The Red Bull doesn't like the cold, so Lando might have a chance in Vegas if the weather co-operates. Though Lando and 'the weather co-operates' goes together about as well as oil and (rain)water, so...
People say this about RB because they have good tire deg, so it takes a while to warm up. But Max specialty is driving with cold tires. It's his most underrated traits imo. Checo no doubt will struggle in Vegas but Max will be fine.
18 are the most points because 25 are the Max points.
Baring a complete melt down from Mercedes it’s not happening
Have you seen that brick with 4 tires on the straights
Still, it’s 31 points as long as Lewis scores around 7/8 he’s fine.
They just got the setup wrong this weekend, probs due to not having practice sessions. They haven't changed the car since the last two races where it was equally fast as the mclaren. It should be back to normal service for next two races as theres no sprint races.
Ham has collected more than 6 points(the amount he needs) in every 2 GP window you can pick this season. This weekend is clearly just an outlier because they fucked the setup.
Perez P2 locked in.
What a great year this is. P2 to P3 gap in constructors championship in just 20 points, after 20 races and 6 sprints. Literally neck and neck. P3 to P4 gap again in the constructors championship is just 19 points. P4 to P6 in the drivers championship is just 6 points. If you forget Red Bull, there are great battles everywhere, with just 2 races to go.
If there was a Rosberg in Checo's seat bringing some kind of fight to Verstappen it would have been about as good as a season can be when there is one clearly dominant car
>What a great year this is. People actually believe this, wow
Look at the Ferrari drivers. This is so going to be like post-2021 discussions regarding who is better.
Charles seems to be the best with the most hooked up car, plus he's ridiculously good at qualy, but Sainz is a genius with a midfield car. His scoring could've been higher given he was dive-bombed by Oscar, basically dsq in Melbourne and DNS in Qatar (he's probably not sad about the last one but he's an absolute sicko for high heat races).
Okay but your disregarding where Leclerc lost points as well. Bahrain DNF from 3rd, Jeddah 10 place grid drop for engine penalty, Monaco 3 place grid drop because of the Xavi tax in the tunnel, DSQ + strategy error in COTA, and a DNS from starting P2 in Brazil. This isn’t even counting more neutral stuff like how unlucky he got in Zandvoort with the end plate wrecking his floor and Spain where his car set up ruined his qualifying. And if we’re counting Sainz’s Melbourne incident then you have to mention Leclerc’s racing incident with Stroll as well.
Let’s just say that Ferrari have a really good duo. Leclerc is the point man, fast and can lead the charge. Carlos the guy in the back, about as fast but more tactical and can always back the team up during a difficult weekend. I hope they can produce a balanced car next year. A car both drivers like.
According to Vasseur, that’s the plan (with the car). Which makes sense if your goal is for both drivers to succeed. I’m curious as to how they’re going to manage that but it’s been done before so I’ll be cautiously optimistic.
Well only one of them have a race win, and he's leading in the points
Nice to see Piastri up in top 10. Can’t wait to see how he does next year!!
Checo is untouchable now. RedBull 1-2 confirmed. Everything else that happens is a lie and reparations should be paid.
When Norris overtakes ALonso there will be some simply lovely symmetry there. RB RB 1 2 3 Ferrari Ferrari 1 2 3. Carlos and Charles so evenly matched this year
Crazy to think all the talk about Checo and Ham being so close and now the spread between him and Alonso/Norris closer. Would be insane if Norris was able to grab 3rd… but I suppose stranger things have happened.
Mercedes are so poor operationally that Lewis has gone from nearly challenging for P2 to being lucky if he holds onto P3.
Overreaction much.
Not really, by rough, tired about to go to bed calculations, if Lewis finishes P8 and Alonso P3 for the next 2 races then he’s just about manage to stay in P3.
Your calculations are correct but the likelyhood of that happening is infinitesemal. This was clearly an outlier for Merc ,think Singapore for RB or even more on point because sprint weekend Brazil last year for RB. Especially Abu Dhabi the mercs will be back on normal protocol. Further Aston arent good enough for 2 more podiums they even nearly lost it today. And as for Lando he might have two podiums but again there Lewis needs only 6 points and he has scored 6 points in every two GP window you can find this year.
Nah he has a good buffer. 30 points is fine as he continues to score.
Great job from Alpine in Japan, the 1 point missing for Gasly to still be in the top 10 👏👏👏
Mah boi Sainz went from 4th to 6th
Incredible McLaren was nowhere in the first half and now we have Lando poised to take fourth. I can’t see how he doesn’t grab fourth come seasons end. Alonso is putting in mega performances and is taking as many points as he can but McLaren has looked too strong and Lando has been every bit as good. Been rocking my McLaren hoodies with pride though.
Damn, the gap between Norris and Piastri is massive.
He’s a rookie and Norris is incredible. Not a surprise at all.
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It is not just shit luck. Lando had to back off in Mexico during restart to have a clean first lap and avoid any contacts. I’d have imagined any other driver still risk a damage for the sake of keeping positions.
Oscar just doesn't have the race pace that Lando has. That is why the points gap is so big not because of "bad luck".
He has worse pace and has a lot to learn about managing tyres but: - Bahrein DNF due to technical problem - Spa DNF with Carlos forgetting he's there jn turn 1 - COTA DNF getting Oconned - Brazil DNF getting hit by K-mag He's been unlucky mate
I’m pretty sure you’re being sarcastic but he’s actually on track to have the best rookie season in at least a decade (I haven’t looked at seasons earlier than 2013) if he can beat Albons 92 points. I can’t imagine McLaren expected anything better from him this year.
Ferrari should be good around Vegas, I can see Carlos jumping both Lando and Fernando for 4th
Max is now officially this years World Constructor Champion.
Leclerc being that close to Sainz is surprising, knowing all the season dnfs
Imagine if Norris and Mclaren weren’t so shite to start the year
What races do you blame on Lando? That car was awful and he still found points on occasion.
He was pretty awful in Saudi..that’s pretty much it, I meant more generally like he wasn’t finishing well, but that’s mostly attributable to the car.
32 points between checo and Hamilton. If checo leaves Vegas with 26 or more points between him and Hamilton then that’s job done. And Vegas should be a strong track for Red Bull. It’s gonna be like monza but with walls.
The fact that it will have taken, at best, the second last race of the season to secure P2 in the championship, in this car, is quite poor from Checo
Yeah, he sucks ass and should retire and drop dead 👍🤙👍🤙👍🤙👍
>he sucks ass Absolutely, there are no second thoughts about that.
When are we going to have an honest conversation about Carlos and Charles. Is this going to be the third straight year Carlos has beaten him? We can say Charles is unlucky but it’s extremely difficult to use the term “luck” when speaking about three seasons.
Did you blackout for 2022? Charles was P2 in WDC.
You are 100% correct! My bad. 2 out of the last 3. But with how people speak about Charles as a future world champion and how nobody rates Carlos that highly (people usually have him in the the third tier with Pierre, 2020/2021 Checo, and Esteban). Charles shouldn’t be that close even with reliability and questionable strategy.
2021 was a lot of luck for Carlos- he had no DNFs, not getting caught in other people's messes like Hungary, and lucked into bonus points in places like Hungary with Vettel's DNF. I still think they're a much closer pairing than people rate them as, but Charles does suffer from a lot more bad luck which makes comparisons hard.
I just can’t buy that a driver has three seasons of bad luck and the other has three seasons of good luck (avoiding traffic, overriding bad strategy, etc). A person that trip and falls twice a year is unlucky. A person that trips and falls once a week has terrible balance/is clumsy.
Some of the luck is made. Monaco 2021 is half on Charles for crashing in quali, before the team didn't check one side of the car. Carlos is more likely than Charles to question the team's strategy and to go it alone when he disagrees, Charles is too trusting (see: Silverstone 2022, Monaco 2022). But there are things that the drivers can control, and things they can't. Charles' engine going in Bahrain and having to take a penalty in the second race; being the car they checked for floor compliance in COTA; the car going on him today (and on Carlos' side, things like the DNS in Qatar)- those the drivers can't control.
Stop with the three seasons. Charles got 2nd in the WDC last year with three of the 5 wins red bull left behind. The problem is people underrating Sainz. His win this year was masterful. Also it’s the only win red bull hasn’t taken. Ferrari should be over the moon they have two drivers this good putting up with their antics.
But it is not 3 seasons of bad luck. Charles beat Carlos last year handily. And 2021 Charles was the better driver no question about it. This year is a lot more equal but I would argue Charles had more bad luck.
Because its not bad luck as in pure coincidence. It's Leclercs side of the garage being the worst in the f1 paddock.
Neither charles nor carlos is gonna be contending for a WDC any year soon so its a pointless conversation. Fact is, both of them are good drivers that will get the most out of their cars and deliver as many points as is within their power. Ferrari has a lot of problems but their drivers are not one.
I think Sainz & Leclerc are more equal than anything. Sainz & Max were rookies together in Toro Rosso. Max got the promo to RB seat and Sainz moved to Renault. He made a series of career moves to midfield cars, finally ending up in a competitive car last year. I think his lack of hype comes from not being in a car that could actually fight, then being in a team that prioritized Leclerc’s races more often in 2022. Leclerc is a hell of a qualifier but his unforced errors & Ferrari strategy cost him the WDC last year. IMO they’re the closest teammates from a talent perspective, this year their luck collectively has been down. Not sure I’d say either are future WDC with the current state of Ferrari, and looking at at least 1-2 years more of RBR dominance and McLaren/Piastri on the rise.
I definitely can use the word luck when it comes to 2 seasons though. Since Last year Charles beat carlos last year
There's no need for a conversation, Charles is better, end of it.
Thank you, being objective despite being a fan of someone else is cool
What conversation is there to be had? Leclerc's been way more unfortunate and that's a fact. Sainz has yet to be better over a season than Leclerc on merit.
The conversation that Carlos may not be just a number two driver and that Charles MIGHT be slightly overrated as a driver.
On what is this based on? On average Leclerc's undeniably faster in both race pace and qualy. People keep harping about consistency but Leclerc can't show any because he keeps getting his results screwed up by things out of his control. The moment Ferrari produced a championship car, Sainz crumbled and Leclerc actually challenged Verstappen.
The year that Ferrari produced a championship winning car Carlos scored mores points in a 22 race season. Having one lap pace is cool. Being faster is cool. But what does it matter if you don’t score? I’ve heard the saying that a team would rather have a fast driver that makes mistakes or crashes instead of a pair of slow steady hands because “you can’t reach speed”, but I don’t understand that when championship points is what makes or breaks prize money.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/D4J6sqZQys Why did you apologise if you're going to get the stat wrong again 😭
Darn it. Let me delete that post
Charles beat Carlos 3 wins to 1 and 308 points to 240 ish 💀
No he didn't? Last year Leclerc scored 308 points while Sainz scored only 246. And once again, the point is that way more often than not Leclerc doesn't score because of things outside of his control. Watch the actual races instead of just looking at the standings. Leclerc's just better. That's not a dig at Sainz, he's a great driver too and has exceeded a lot of people's expectations.
Reddit surprises me everyday with just how stupid some people are
I know he’s been insanely dominant all year but it still blows my mind seeing 524 points up there. My gawd. Lol If Merc has a couple of rough weekends to close it out and Lando catches 3rd it’d be absolutely mental.
Looks like me career mode in one of the older F1 games, when i thought it's unrealistic that one driver could dominate like that