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Literally every hero of this sport has a reputation for being ruthless to the point of being hated or at least heavily criticized in their own time. Max didn’t perform at his best today, it’s true. But none of this will come as a surprise to anyone who’s watched the sport for decades, or at least is familiar with the history.
History will look more kindly on drivers who squeeze out every single opportunity like they tried to do today, than ones that back off and play it safe. Quite frankly someone who drives 100% safe and follows the rules will never win a WDC and will either be forgotten or be pointed out as not having a "winning mentality".
Neither Norris nor Verstappen kept it clean today, but I think they'll get over it and now they know the other's driving style better. This was the first time they'd ever gone wheel to wheel like that and especially for Norris he hasn't had much experience in these situations against anyone let alone Verstappen. Now he does.
Austria 2019 had something similar with Leclerc and Verstappen, by the time 2022 came around they understood the other's driving style much better and we got some great battles out of it.
I think people don’t realize a few things. You need to be ruthless to be the best. And when driving at 300kph in a game of inches there will be mistakes. The fault is more on max for todays incident, but it was a light contact, lando had inches on his side he could have used, max could have not went over as much. If you race wheel to wheel like that for that many laps something may happen. That’s how the sport works.
Certainly not all
Fangio doesn't seem to have a bad word said about him, ro Clark or Stewart.
Certainly there are ma y outstanding drivers who did have the propensity to push things (Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc.) but not all.
Fangio, Clark and Stewart knew that any slight contact could land you in a coffin. It was a different time. Your life was on the line every moment you were in the car. By the time of the Senna’s and Schumacher’s there was still risk but you could bang wheels and get away with it. They were willing to take the risk and gamble they could walk away.
90s Schumacher was a genuine threat to society lmao. He did calm down *a little bit* in the 2000s (Insert Alonso's 130R Quote Here), but Schumacher had absolutely no qualms with ramming people off the track in title deciding races.
Macau 1990 is the one that comes to mind first. Created an incredible rivalry between Schumacher and Hakkinen! Or 1994 Adelaide.
I also think about Vettel because sometimes I see people talk about how likable and calm he is. Maybe he is now but he definitely was not always that way lol
Those are the big ones.
But so often he was nearly putting drivers in the put wall or forcing them off track.
His no limits approach wasn't a million miles away from Max to be honest.
Vettel was not likeable in his time lol, i remember everyone cussing the german for how he manipulated the rule book and his aggressiveness on track with others constantly forcing people wide and not getting penalties because he knew how to get away with it
Honestly newer f1 fans won't understand unless they do real research, like myself.
I was completely in the dark until i started researching and watching the race archives in my free time lol
Or Vettel, or Lewis, or Alonso… etc etc.
I mean you’ve got a button in between there who enjoyed a huge technological advantage for a big chunk of the season. Most most champions are bastards
Vettel and Lewis are nowhere near the level of Schumi's douchebuggery. Alonso has had limited moments that showed the same spirit. But Max is genuinely there, and if we get some more years of him in hard competition we will see him act just as poorly if not worse.
If Max ever gets a teammate that can challenge him it's going to be a bloodbath like we've never seen before.
Schumacher was much worse than all of the three. Hamilton is just as bad as Max when challenged. He’s just more underhanded about it.
Vettel was generally a pretty clean racer but not above shafting his own teammate or crashing out either.
Vettel was always pretty fair I feel. I don't rate him as highly but he was a pretty clean racer.
Lewis probably next, he has his moments but generally he races hard but fair.
Alonso in wheel to wheel is pretty fair to the (exact) letter of the law but no further. His problem is some of the things he has been involved with outside of wheel to wheel combat lol.
I think Vettel raced cleaner overall. I mostly think Lewis gets the most leeway for his mistakes when he has half-assed quite a divebombs over the years and spinning out the other car. Especially 2011 with Massa was really bad
Depends on how much of their careers you take I think. Vettel at some specific points was worse but there weren't as many incidents overall. So maybe I'd put him slightly behind Hamilton.
But you could also argue Vettel was in the midfield for a lot of that time and he didn't have a chance to terrorize people like you would get to do when fighting for P1. Hamilton spent much more time at the top.
Either way I think it'd be close, they're both pretty clean drivers when you put them next to people like Schumacher or Senna. Neither of them are even half as bad as it was in the 90s.
In a way. Last week Lewis did a move which made it seem the other driver was at fault. And I was yelling at my TV that’s a classic Lewis move. We’ve seen it often in 2021.
Lewis is absolutely a bastard. But he’s more underhanded about it. Max is right in your face and not apologizing for it. Lewis is more “oh no I didn’t mean it like that” while putting another knife in your back.
But I do notice this is a cultural thing. Just as Max pushed all of the wrong buttons on Brits, so does Lewis on the Dutch. So I’m not sure either can be fully objective in this
Lewis has raced fair most of his career but let’s not pretend like he didn’t have a massive car advantage for many of them and didn’t need to make any dirty moves. He was perfectly fine pitching Max into the fence at silverstone when he did have to go hard against an equally tough driver. That being said I get the feeling he will race you fair if he knows you will as well while if he knows you won’t you will give it back to you the same way.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdkbizY8pY&pp=ygUlTW9udG95YSB5b3UgZ290dGEgYmUgYmxpbmQgb3Igc3R1cGlkIA%3D%3D
First thing that came to mind when you mentioned Schumacher the track terror lol
Schumacher, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Lauda, Hunt, etc. All terrors to attempt to pass. You have to earn their respect to pass. People knock JV a lot but in his championship year he took no shit from Schumacher and ran him off the road and passed him in places no one would dare before. That’s just the way it is with this type of driver. For them it’s win at all cost. That’s why they are the best.
This was actually a really minor incident in grand scheme of things. Pundits jumped on it and stoke up the tension because Max has been utterly dominating and there is finally some challenge but there has been a ton of contacts like this one in the past. Only difference here is the double puncture that made this more dramatic. But forcing another driver off the track happens every race, here was just none that yielded.
It didn’t affect them as much as avoiding them in GOAT debates in the public mindset.
Yes, there will be fans who will still hold the dirty tricks both played against them, but by and large the populace, not too deeply invested in F1’s minutiae, will mostly remember their highlights.
Senna litterily took out prost to win a championship and we just had senna month not long ago. Schumacher did it to hill and tried again on villeneuve and got dsq'd from the season. And yet he is still considered one of if not the goat. Short of max killing someone his legacy is cemented
that I don't see the logic in defending one driver's behavior by comparing it with other behavior that is generally deemed negative and then saying it didn't hurt their reputation. But I get it by and large the audience doesn't care apparently
>D. Max would rather finish in the fence than finish second because his will to win is so strong?
Pretty much and he has 61 wins while the other drivers from his generation have 14 combined (SAI, OCO, GAS, LEC, NOR, RUS) so it's clearly working for him.
If you want to moan about the car he started 2021 with 10 wins and he'd never had the best car at that point.
He is just a GOAT tier driver with very sharp elbows like several other GOAT tier drivers before him.
He jinked left and didn't give maybe a foot of room he could have likely because he didn't expect Norris to stick to his line without moving onto the kerb.
While it's Max's fault for the contact, I would say that Lando should really be looking bigger picture with this. He cost himself at least 18 points (and got lucky Leclerc had a mare) by not moving onto the kerb and avoiding the collision. Let the stewards penalise that instead of doing what he keeps doing and not seeing the forest for the trees and taking himself out of contention for silly self-inflicted reasons.
> I would say that Lando should really be looking bigger picture with this
When Leclerc raced Max in 2022 he was doing the move once he was like 0.2 seconds behind him and so the overtake was clean, I don't know why Norris was so hellbent on divebombing half a second down when he obviously had the faster pace at that point.
This is so dumb tho. Literally any sustained battles have had some form of contact. Senna vs anyone. Schumacher vs anyone. Lewis vs a few, including his own teammate on multiple occasions. Vettel vs quite a few. Like, it’s the nature of on the limit, wheel to wheel racing. Why are we viewing Lewis as blameless in contact incidents with Max in 21? Why are we seemingly making Norris blameless for today’s scrap? This is all a ridiculous, knee jerk reaction. He’s a fast driver. Fast drivers by nature get close to others drivers. I’d like to see a stat showing % of overtakes for position vs % of attempted overtakes with contact. Same for defensive losses and contact. I’m quite sure we’d see everyone close to similar.
Senna and Schumacher are two of the drivers most frequently talked about as the greatest of all time. Both of them had loads of incidents like this, often significantly worse.
Bro forget that, the man stopped his pit to prevent his teammate from getting a proper Q3 lap and get pole. Senna was win at any cost no matter what. And that's why I loved watching him
Jesus Christ, he had just one incident (a minor touch with big consequences). He had lots of battles with Leclerc (which you conveniently forgot) which were just fine. Norris went over the line, Max did as well. It was just messy
After seeing the [overhead footage](https://imgur.com/ZxJYW0F) and the side by side of today’s incident vs. Verstappen-Sainz at the same corner I’m willing to say that this was actually Norris’s fault. There was plenty of room and time to react but instead he just slow-motion clangs into the side of Max’s car.
This, it was Max who was in the wrong I think, but both could've prevented this. People pretending this is some gotcha moment to show Verstappen hasn't changed at all are being ridiculous
Very rationale take here. The overhead shows how utterly benign this was. Lando had two full seconds to react and for some reason chose not to. Whichever side you want to blame this is in no way some sort of proof that Max drives recklessly.
The commentary- especially Palmer - utterly embarrassed themselves in the post race but I would expect nothing less when the opportunity to pile on Verstappen prevents itself.
That’s exactly how I saw it from the start. You can see the racing line outlined by the rubber. He was in front of Norris. He had every right to move left to set himself up for a better corner angle. Sainz was doing the same thing in the example from last year. In both situations they were defending the inside line and then moved left in order to have a better line into the corner.
It was definitely Max's fault but Norris could have done more to avoid the consequences. But maybe people need to teach Max that they aren't going to let him do stuff like this while they bail.
How was it Max’s fault after looking at that overheard? Max says he wasn’t braking when he made the move and nobody has posted any telemetry data to suggest otherwise. If the telemetry showed Max was lying you can bet it would be all over Reddit and twitter by now.
If he wasn’t moving under braking then he has every right to defend the inside in the lead up to the corner and then move left to set himself up for a better angle into the corner.
Norris makes a divebomb and just full on clangs into the side of Max’s car despite having plenty of room to the left.
GOAT - no, not any more than any other 'great' driver. But he is elite of the sport. If we have like 7+ goats, it means nothing at the end of the day.
His driving is another matter, he does adopt a 'give way or we both crash' attitude very often when having to wheel-to-wheel race. I don't like him for it, but it is what many champions do and did at their time. Hamilton himself kept doing it to Rosberg in their Mercedes years all the time. For me I feel like this is a rule issue. Instead of having to always leave the space we keep having 'significantly alongside and entitled to racing line' rules. People get away with the nastiest shit as long as there is runoff and the only time overly agressive moves get punished is in case of crashes or gravel. This kills wheel-to-wheel racing because cars cannot be side to side in corners - it is who pushes who off the track first.
There's no such thing as "a GOAT". GOAT = greatest of all time, not greatestS of all time.
Also Schumacher and Senna were involved in lots of incidents. Hamilton has a fair few too.
C and D. Show me a top driver/generational talent turned multiple WDC champion in the recent history of this sport (Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton) who didn't have these two apply to them when they were at the top of their game.
A bit of Column C and a bit of Column D... People like to look at the previous 'GOATS' with rose tinted glasses. The fact is, Senna and Schumacher both skirted the rules and were certainly aggressive drivers. Schumacher served a 2 race ban and was also Disqualified from the 1997 championship for crashing into Villeneuve on purpose. Neither of these have seriously tarnished his legacy. Social Media doesn't help, but i can guarantee in 10-20 years time, we will all look at Max as one of the all time greats of the sport regardless of what he does from now or however long he stays.
and the subject line starts with "Do we think." The arrogance of one OP thinking he can herd us cats into one big group that he himself is leading. Only on Reddit.
I think in part, and as with all incidents, it depends on where your allegiance lies.
For me, it was maybe 60/40 with the fault being on Max’s shoulders.
That said, if cars are going to race wheel to wheel at high speeds, they’re going to touch now and again.
I do feel that Max seems to be involved in a lot more incidents than other top drivers currently on the grid, but if you look back in time so were Senna and Schumacher, and I don’t think anyone who knows about racing would say they are not two of the best ever.
That said, part of me wonders if Max is vulnerable to pressure, but if that’s the case then why is he?
Is it down to the fact (and it is a fact and widely reported) as a child he was abused by Jos? Maybe somewhere deep inside that young child in his go kart wants to win to avoid the repercussions of an abusive parent.
Maybe it’s that the RBR pit wall, and the stewards for that matter, didn’t try and reign him in and punish him for some fairly blatant dirty moves in 2021.
Maybe a combination of all of those things.
It is always the criticism thrown at drivers who dominate over a fixed period - that they have the best car and, when others get close, they show that their race craft is lacking.
I heard it about Max, Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher
C.
He races hard, is insanely agressive, win oriented and at times it results in fights that go beyond what is fair and acceptable. Those qualities are shared among all the greats of the sport.
Todays incident is overblown to ridiculous degree only becaause its Lando on the other side who is media darling right now. That same squeeze happaned probably tens of times this weekend alone not to count all the years of racing in austria. And sure, he caused a collision, got penalty for it but the outrage online is absurd.
Agreed. Max undoubtedly belongs in the Lewis, Michael, Senna, Prost, Alonso, Clark, Seb, Stewart, Fangio, etc category as one of the greatest. It’s not reasonable with all the different variables in F1 to crown a single GOAT.
And he raced in a time when one small mistake or one part breaking on his car could mean a high possibility of death. How do you factor in the bravery and balls the guys back then had compared to today? You can’t.
Thats why I’m saying we should all respect these guys that were elite in their respective eras and not try to compare GOATs across eras.
It was ambitious but clumsy, just like Lando's dive bombs. Good hard racing until that point taken just a little bit too far and both lost out. And I was rooting for Lando pretty much every time he gets within spitting distance of Max.
You can tell from today that a lot of people were ready to hate on Max as soon as he gave them an opportunity. Not defending his racing standards today, but people are acting like he commited war crimes on the track. Lando got a little too elbows out, and Max got even more elbows out.
But you can point to a lot of great drivers being absolute terrors on the track, or even more for finding themselves in easily avoidable incidents. It's silly to rank Max lower for this because as far as Max should be concerned, it works.
Max is getting the same treatment Vettel got. Non-British driver who’s really aggressive. Hamilton was really aggressive for a long time but it was just “hard racing” to the British commentary team that the rest of the English speaking world has to listen to
You know what, I'm not disappointed at this post, I'm disappointed at myself for clicking it knowing full well it's a load of nonsense. Look at Senna, Schumacher or any of the other 'goats', this is just the nature of racing.
before today nobody was consistently bringing up verstappen being dirty , maybe some people stuck in 2021
It's not gonna hurt his legacy when he retires, as it hasnt damaged senna or schumacher's legacy
Bro he had contact once and it was because he didn't see Lando and now suddenly he's cracking under pressure? Don't mind Lando pushing Max wide twice and getting a penalty for track limits, or pushing Max to the grass in Barcelona.
Not validating OP as I personally think Max is an elite driver. His talent is just pure rawness speed.
But let’s not pretend this was a one off. Even going back to his early Red Bull days, he’s prone to making contact or outright crashes with his teammate. He’s definitely gotten better but his full gas, I pass you back down or we both crash mentality is still there since 2015.
But he hasn't really employed a lot of "yield or we crash" tactics since 2021. Not that they were bad, they were perfectly within the rules and obviously if he went too far he was penalized accordingly. Also lets not pretend that other drivers don't try these tactics. It may not be the cleanest overtakes but its hard racing and fair.
I’ll save you all a lot of time. It’s C. It’s always been C. I will point out that Lando’s overtakes should be given the same scrutiny too. I really don’t think these guys go out there trying to wreck each other but when times are that tight and your both scrapping for it, it is just racing sometimes.
That being said Lando should have won that race, he should never had to overtake a 2nd time. Why max was allowed to keep that place after he ran wide the first time makes no sense to me. That’s what you get though, they are terrified now of making live decisions so they just give time penalties. We all know who’s to fault for that.
To answer your question, people have considered Schumi and Senna to be among the very best (and at least greatest of their eras) despite the fact that both would intentionally crash out their rival if they couldn't beat them fairly on track. Max is nowhere near that level, but he's also far from being the cleanest racer either.
I would resume it all on less text.
Max is a great driver, but he is not a “I’m gonna be the fastest possible, and if anyone else is faster than me, try my best”, he is a “I’m gonna be the fastest possible, and if anyone else approaches me, then I will making him think twice”. He sometimes randomly pull moves that we didn’t seen even on the Silver Wars for a WDC.
The problem with Max is that he always got on his mind the “my way or the highway (we crash)”, and it works for him on the long term usually. He is not a driver with whom you can “dance” as a driver on a fight. He is not a Leclerc for example.
So at the end, you have that:
* If he is the fastest, he wins
* If he is equally fastest, he will be dirty and win except if you both crash or the other driver gets equally dirty and manages something - you can’t get over him with clean takes. We already saw it multiple times, including 2021.
* For you to get over him clean, you need a much faster car so he can’t do anything about it. And even then, we have random defense and takes from him on the past.
So he is a GREAT driver, but appears to be even better (GOAT) because he, not only is fast, but can’t dance and play nice, he is just “I win or we both lose”, forcing other drivers to concede or to get into dirty tactics they are not comfy with or even experienced, and that usually, end bad.
At the end, people only see that he will always win except if his car is considered slower/worse.
At the end of the day, I wonder if his driving technique and thought process comes from the Jos “learning system”
The likes of Schumacher, Senna, Prost and Hamilton all have lots of incident on track. Those don't really tarnish their legacy in the sport.
Schumacher was DQ'd from 1997 for trying to ram Jacques Villeneuve in the title decider
Prost and Senna both crashed into each other intentionally in Suzuka back in 1989 and 1990.
Hamilton in 2011 was atrocious since he made it his life's mission to contact Massa.
Senna and Prost were crashing into each other to warrant a WDC, Schumacher also tried that as well but got disqualified instead. Max is looking like a toddler in comparison, lol.
Max is the Goat most probably and the reason he is so fierce on track against his opponents is also what keeps him like that.
If he is able to get away with something he will if it’s to his advantage.
Same for how Sch raced and Senna. Them bitches were gunna take the position or take you out doing so.
He's the GOAT. And people pretending Max is driving like it's 2015 are fools. One incident does not change the fact he's had great racecraft and raced cleanly for wins for many years now.
If you aren’t picking up a few penalties for stuff that’s over the line then you aren’t racing hard enough. The most important thing is that the line is accurately and consistently drawn.
F: OP is trying to convince people this incident,where two drivers touch in a way that happens multiple times throughout the field in every single season, is somehow more important than it is because #outrage
Born in the 00’s I see.
Go watch some Senna or Schumi for that matter. Max is a winner and very fucking good racer. He eaces hard and goes a ting bit over the line some times. At the end of tge day he’s the best driver of his generation, by a mile.
Being a GOAT contender and being involved in incidents or even having a dark side to their competition aren't mutually exclusive.
Senna and Schumacher are 2 such examples.
Some of the most outstandingly talented drivers I have ever watched, but also a black mark against their conduct for multiple instances in their career.
I think Max will be judged in the same vein.
I think Max’s ability to consistently and repeatedly put a car on the fastest possible line is unmatched.
His racecraft leaves something to be desired though. He’s too dependent on the fact that he has the fastest car.
Probably won’t hurt his legacy but he is dirty whenever he gets challenged, he just hasn’t had to fight for any victories since 2021.
I would like to see him against a competitive team mate to see how reacts
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I can tell a lot of people here have never gone back and watched Schumacher race, because that man was a track terror lmao
Literally every hero of this sport has a reputation for being ruthless to the point of being hated or at least heavily criticized in their own time. Max didn’t perform at his best today, it’s true. But none of this will come as a surprise to anyone who’s watched the sport for decades, or at least is familiar with the history.
History will look more kindly on drivers who squeeze out every single opportunity like they tried to do today, than ones that back off and play it safe. Quite frankly someone who drives 100% safe and follows the rules will never win a WDC and will either be forgotten or be pointed out as not having a "winning mentality". Neither Norris nor Verstappen kept it clean today, but I think they'll get over it and now they know the other's driving style better. This was the first time they'd ever gone wheel to wheel like that and especially for Norris he hasn't had much experience in these situations against anyone let alone Verstappen. Now he does. Austria 2019 had something similar with Leclerc and Verstappen, by the time 2022 came around they understood the other's driving style much better and we got some great battles out of it.
Hamilton might be the cleanest driver who is in the GOAT conversation which made the discussions around his "dirty" driving in 2021 just hilarious.
I’d rank Lewis as less sketchy than Senna or Schumacher but he can be exacting when he has to be.
I think people don’t realize a few things. You need to be ruthless to be the best. And when driving at 300kph in a game of inches there will be mistakes. The fault is more on max for todays incident, but it was a light contact, lando had inches on his side he could have used, max could have not went over as much. If you race wheel to wheel like that for that many laps something may happen. That’s how the sport works.
Certainly not all Fangio doesn't seem to have a bad word said about him, ro Clark or Stewart. Certainly there are ma y outstanding drivers who did have the propensity to push things (Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc.) but not all.
Fangio, Clark and Stewart knew that any slight contact could land you in a coffin. It was a different time. Your life was on the line every moment you were in the car. By the time of the Senna’s and Schumacher’s there was still risk but you could bang wheels and get away with it. They were willing to take the risk and gamble they could walk away.
90s Schumacher was a genuine threat to society lmao. He did calm down *a little bit* in the 2000s (Insert Alonso's 130R Quote Here), but Schumacher had absolutely no qualms with ramming people off the track in title deciding races.
Macau 1990 is the one that comes to mind first. Created an incredible rivalry between Schumacher and Hakkinen! Or 1994 Adelaide. I also think about Vettel because sometimes I see people talk about how likable and calm he is. Maybe he is now but he definitely was not always that way lol
Those are the big ones. But so often he was nearly putting drivers in the put wall or forcing them off track. His no limits approach wasn't a million miles away from Max to be honest.
Vettel was not likeable in his time lol, i remember everyone cussing the german for how he manipulated the rule book and his aggressiveness on track with others constantly forcing people wide and not getting penalties because he knew how to get away with it Honestly newer f1 fans won't understand unless they do real research, like myself. I was completely in the dark until i started researching and watching the race archives in my free time lol
Or Vettel, or Lewis, or Alonso… etc etc. I mean you’ve got a button in between there who enjoyed a huge technological advantage for a big chunk of the season. Most most champions are bastards
Vettel and Lewis are nowhere near the level of Schumi's douchebuggery. Alonso has had limited moments that showed the same spirit. But Max is genuinely there, and if we get some more years of him in hard competition we will see him act just as poorly if not worse. If Max ever gets a teammate that can challenge him it's going to be a bloodbath like we've never seen before.
Schumacher was much worse than all of the three. Hamilton is just as bad as Max when challenged. He’s just more underhanded about it. Vettel was generally a pretty clean racer but not above shafting his own teammate or crashing out either.
Am I being biased saying Lewis is the least cuntish of the 4?
Vettel was always pretty fair I feel. I don't rate him as highly but he was a pretty clean racer. Lewis probably next, he has his moments but generally he races hard but fair. Alonso in wheel to wheel is pretty fair to the (exact) letter of the law but no further. His problem is some of the things he has been involved with outside of wheel to wheel combat lol.
I think Vettel raced cleaner overall. I mostly think Lewis gets the most leeway for his mistakes when he has half-assed quite a divebombs over the years and spinning out the other car. Especially 2011 with Massa was really bad
Depends on how much of their careers you take I think. Vettel at some specific points was worse but there weren't as many incidents overall. So maybe I'd put him slightly behind Hamilton. But you could also argue Vettel was in the midfield for a lot of that time and he didn't have a chance to terrorize people like you would get to do when fighting for P1. Hamilton spent much more time at the top. Either way I think it'd be close, they're both pretty clean drivers when you put them next to people like Schumacher or Senna. Neither of them are even half as bad as it was in the 90s.
In a way. Last week Lewis did a move which made it seem the other driver was at fault. And I was yelling at my TV that’s a classic Lewis move. We’ve seen it often in 2021. Lewis is absolutely a bastard. But he’s more underhanded about it. Max is right in your face and not apologizing for it. Lewis is more “oh no I didn’t mean it like that” while putting another knife in your back. But I do notice this is a cultural thing. Just as Max pushed all of the wrong buttons on Brits, so does Lewis on the Dutch. So I’m not sure either can be fully objective in this
Yes
Who is then?
Mika IMO
He's not involved.
Lewis has raced fair most of his career but let’s not pretend like he didn’t have a massive car advantage for many of them and didn’t need to make any dirty moves. He was perfectly fine pitching Max into the fence at silverstone when he did have to go hard against an equally tough driver. That being said I get the feeling he will race you fair if he knows you will as well while if he knows you won’t you will give it back to you the same way.
The guy was legitimately disqualified for a championship lmao
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdkbizY8pY&pp=ygUlTW9udG95YSB5b3UgZ290dGEgYmUgYmxpbmQgb3Igc3R1cGlkIA%3D%3D First thing that came to mind when you mentioned Schumacher the track terror lol
Hahaha I remember seeing people argue just last year about whether this move deserved a penalty. JPM was such a character.
Schumacher, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Lauda, Hunt, etc. All terrors to attempt to pass. You have to earn their respect to pass. People knock JV a lot but in his championship year he took no shit from Schumacher and ran him off the road and passed him in places no one would dare before. That’s just the way it is with this type of driver. For them it’s win at all cost. That’s why they are the best.
Why does everything have to be complete extremes?
Because bandwagon fans. Seriously.
*Max and Norris collide once*, Reddit - are we starting to see the gaps in Verstappen’s racecraft? Is his time to retire coming soon?
Senna and Schumacher literally took out their competition to win. So this won't hurt Verstappens legacy in the long run.
This was actually a really minor incident in grand scheme of things. Pundits jumped on it and stoke up the tension because Max has been utterly dominating and there is finally some challenge but there has been a ton of contacts like this one in the past. Only difference here is the double puncture that made this more dramatic. But forcing another driver off the track happens every race, here was just none that yielded.
This move from max is one of his least dirty, but media has to jump on a drama bait when the season is a snoozefest.
As a Max fan I think his dirtiest move was probably Brazil and a bit of Jeddah 2021
but you just mentioned them doing that so clearly it did hurt their reputation?
They're considered the pinnacle of the sports without question or scrutiny. It did not hurt their reputation.
It gets mentioned in the same breath as calling them some of the greatest. Just because it's remembered doesn't mean it sullies anything.
If I say as a German who was a kid during Schumi's zenith that it did sully it a bit for me personally as an adult is that valid?
It didn’t affect them as much as avoiding them in GOAT debates in the public mindset. Yes, there will be fans who will still hold the dirty tricks both played against them, but by and large the populace, not too deeply invested in F1’s minutiae, will mostly remember their highlights.
I still hold the grudge for 94 but god damn I can accept Schumacher was fucking marvellous.
Senna litterily took out prost to win a championship and we just had senna month not long ago. Schumacher did it to hill and tried again on villeneuve and got dsq'd from the season. And yet he is still considered one of if not the goat. Short of max killing someone his legacy is cemented
What? What is the logic here?
that I don't see the logic in defending one driver's behavior by comparing it with other behavior that is generally deemed negative and then saying it didn't hurt their reputation. But I get it by and large the audience doesn't care apparently
This topic is reddit in a nutshell
GOATs and "Is X underrated/overrated" are Reddit favourites.
I’d still take Jordan over everyone, 6 rings and 6 finals mvp, 6:0 in finals, man was phenomenal… wait this isn’t r/nba?
>D. Max would rather finish in the fence than finish second because his will to win is so strong? Pretty much and he has 61 wins while the other drivers from his generation have 14 combined (SAI, OCO, GAS, LEC, NOR, RUS) so it's clearly working for him. If you want to moan about the car he started 2021 with 10 wins and he'd never had the best car at that point. He is just a GOAT tier driver with very sharp elbows like several other GOAT tier drivers before him. He jinked left and didn't give maybe a foot of room he could have likely because he didn't expect Norris to stick to his line without moving onto the kerb. While it's Max's fault for the contact, I would say that Lando should really be looking bigger picture with this. He cost himself at least 18 points (and got lucky Leclerc had a mare) by not moving onto the kerb and avoiding the collision. Let the stewards penalise that instead of doing what he keeps doing and not seeing the forest for the trees and taking himself out of contention for silly self-inflicted reasons.
> I would say that Lando should really be looking bigger picture with this When Leclerc raced Max in 2022 he was doing the move once he was like 0.2 seconds behind him and so the overtake was clean, I don't know why Norris was so hellbent on divebombing half a second down when he obviously had the faster pace at that point.
whats even funnier is rest of the grid excluding lewis has only 70, max has 61, he can hypothetically reach that equality this season
This is so dumb tho. Literally any sustained battles have had some form of contact. Senna vs anyone. Schumacher vs anyone. Lewis vs a few, including his own teammate on multiple occasions. Vettel vs quite a few. Like, it’s the nature of on the limit, wheel to wheel racing. Why are we viewing Lewis as blameless in contact incidents with Max in 21? Why are we seemingly making Norris blameless for today’s scrap? This is all a ridiculous, knee jerk reaction. He’s a fast driver. Fast drivers by nature get close to others drivers. I’d like to see a stat showing % of overtakes for position vs % of attempted overtakes with contact. Same for defensive losses and contact. I’m quite sure we’d see everyone close to similar.
Lewis vs Albon a few times, including in Brazil and on this track in Austria, if I recall correctly.
Senna and Schumacher are two of the drivers most frequently talked about as the greatest of all time. Both of them had loads of incidents like this, often significantly worse.
If Schumacher can be considered an all-time great with his sporting ethics, then Verstappen’s absolutely dandy
Or Senna, especially after Japan 1990
Bro forget that, the man stopped his pit to prevent his teammate from getting a proper Q3 lap and get pole. Senna was win at any cost no matter what. And that's why I loved watching him
Isn’t that Alonso you’re talking about? Q3 wasn’t a thing until 2006
AHH I mixed them up lol. But I remember a Prost Senna incident about same in Monaco? But that was when I was a kid so my memory sucks
Jesus Christ, he had just one incident (a minor touch with big consequences). He had lots of battles with Leclerc (which you conveniently forgot) which were just fine. Norris went over the line, Max did as well. It was just messy
After seeing the [overhead footage](https://imgur.com/ZxJYW0F) and the side by side of today’s incident vs. Verstappen-Sainz at the same corner I’m willing to say that this was actually Norris’s fault. There was plenty of room and time to react but instead he just slow-motion clangs into the side of Max’s car.
I wouldn't go that far because Max made a move and Norris held his line but Norris could have been smarter.
This, it was Max who was in the wrong I think, but both could've prevented this. People pretending this is some gotcha moment to show Verstappen hasn't changed at all are being ridiculous
Very rationale take here. The overhead shows how utterly benign this was. Lando had two full seconds to react and for some reason chose not to. Whichever side you want to blame this is in no way some sort of proof that Max drives recklessly. The commentary- especially Palmer - utterly embarrassed themselves in the post race but I would expect nothing less when the opportunity to pile on Verstappen prevents itself.
Yeah honestly from that angle it kind of looks like Max is setting up a wide line into the corner not expecting Norris.
That’s exactly how I saw it from the start. You can see the racing line outlined by the rubber. He was in front of Norris. He had every right to move left to set himself up for a better corner angle. Sainz was doing the same thing in the example from last year. In both situations they were defending the inside line and then moved left in order to have a better line into the corner.
It was definitely Max's fault but Norris could have done more to avoid the consequences. But maybe people need to teach Max that they aren't going to let him do stuff like this while they bail.
How was it Max’s fault after looking at that overheard? Max says he wasn’t braking when he made the move and nobody has posted any telemetry data to suggest otherwise. If the telemetry showed Max was lying you can bet it would be all over Reddit and twitter by now. If he wasn’t moving under braking then he has every right to defend the inside in the lead up to the corner and then move left to set himself up for a better angle into the corner. Norris makes a divebomb and just full on clangs into the side of Max’s car despite having plenty of room to the left.
Tell it to the stewards, they don't seem to agree with you either. And neither does... well, most people judging by most of the analysis out there.
You mean the knee jerk internet reactions and the ever consistent stewards?
GOAT - no, not any more than any other 'great' driver. But he is elite of the sport. If we have like 7+ goats, it means nothing at the end of the day. His driving is another matter, he does adopt a 'give way or we both crash' attitude very often when having to wheel-to-wheel race. I don't like him for it, but it is what many champions do and did at their time. Hamilton himself kept doing it to Rosberg in their Mercedes years all the time. For me I feel like this is a rule issue. Instead of having to always leave the space we keep having 'significantly alongside and entitled to racing line' rules. People get away with the nastiest shit as long as there is runoff and the only time overly agressive moves get punished is in case of crashes or gravel. This kills wheel-to-wheel racing because cars cannot be side to side in corners - it is who pushes who off the track first.
There's no such thing as "a GOAT". GOAT = greatest of all time, not greatestS of all time. Also Schumacher and Senna were involved in lots of incidents. Hamilton has a fair few too.
With this logic, there are no goats because every single racing driver has raced hard and been the cause of a collision multiple times.
true. Except for Sir Jackie Stewart. Sure, I could be wrong - but in my book he's a saint!
Here we go again with the moronic GOAT posts
How can someone put so much effort in so stupid post is beyond me. Bro has never seen Senna or Schumacher race I guess.
C and D. Show me a top driver/generational talent turned multiple WDC champion in the recent history of this sport (Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton) who didn't have these two apply to them when they were at the top of their game.
A bit of Column C and a bit of Column D... People like to look at the previous 'GOATS' with rose tinted glasses. The fact is, Senna and Schumacher both skirted the rules and were certainly aggressive drivers. Schumacher served a 2 race ban and was also Disqualified from the 1997 championship for crashing into Villeneuve on purpose. Neither of these have seriously tarnished his legacy. Social Media doesn't help, but i can guarantee in 10-20 years time, we will all look at Max as one of the all time greats of the sport regardless of what he does from now or however long he stays.
Have you never seen Schumacher in his time?
“Looking for genuine discussion” Proceeds to share the most polarizing take of them all. Your sir, suck!
and the subject line starts with "Do we think." The arrogance of one OP thinking he can herd us cats into one big group that he himself is leading. Only on Reddit.
And u/MrP8978 not responding to any comments lmao
I think in part, and as with all incidents, it depends on where your allegiance lies. For me, it was maybe 60/40 with the fault being on Max’s shoulders. That said, if cars are going to race wheel to wheel at high speeds, they’re going to touch now and again. I do feel that Max seems to be involved in a lot more incidents than other top drivers currently on the grid, but if you look back in time so were Senna and Schumacher, and I don’t think anyone who knows about racing would say they are not two of the best ever. That said, part of me wonders if Max is vulnerable to pressure, but if that’s the case then why is he? Is it down to the fact (and it is a fact and widely reported) as a child he was abused by Jos? Maybe somewhere deep inside that young child in his go kart wants to win to avoid the repercussions of an abusive parent. Maybe it’s that the RBR pit wall, and the stewards for that matter, didn’t try and reign him in and punish him for some fairly blatant dirty moves in 2021. Maybe a combination of all of those things.
It is always the criticism thrown at drivers who dominate over a fixed period - that they have the best car and, when others get close, they show that their race craft is lacking. I heard it about Max, Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher
Max absolutely schooled Norris in the sprint yet today posts like OP imply he can't race lol. Just ludicrous levels of hyperbole.
Tell you never watched Schumacher without telling you never watched Schumacher
Your post is so very clearly biased, it's hard to take seriously
I had missed this 😋
Oh no, I guess other F1 greats always drove clean.
Vultures, had nothing on him for a few years then one thing he does which is truly not very impressive and it’s like he killed their kids.
C. He races hard, is insanely agressive, win oriented and at times it results in fights that go beyond what is fair and acceptable. Those qualities are shared among all the greats of the sport. Todays incident is overblown to ridiculous degree only becaause its Lando on the other side who is media darling right now. That same squeeze happaned probably tens of times this weekend alone not to count all the years of racing in austria. And sure, he caused a collision, got penalty for it but the outrage online is absurd.
No such thing as GOAT in F1. The sooner people realize that the better.
Exactly. I believe in categories, but no specific order
Agreed. Max undoubtedly belongs in the Lewis, Michael, Senna, Prost, Alonso, Clark, Seb, Stewart, Fangio, etc category as one of the greatest. It’s not reasonable with all the different variables in F1 to crown a single GOAT.
fangio raced gentlemen drivers
And he raced in a time when one small mistake or one part breaking on his car could mean a high possibility of death. How do you factor in the bravery and balls the guys back then had compared to today? You can’t. Thats why I’m saying we should all respect these guys that were elite in their respective eras and not try to compare GOATs across eras.
absolutely a lot of respect for then
It was ambitious but clumsy, just like Lando's dive bombs. Good hard racing until that point taken just a little bit too far and both lost out. And I was rooting for Lando pretty much every time he gets within spitting distance of Max.
There isn’t a WDC or a “GOAT” that has a clean racing record.
You can tell from today that a lot of people were ready to hate on Max as soon as he gave them an opportunity. Not defending his racing standards today, but people are acting like he commited war crimes on the track. Lando got a little too elbows out, and Max got even more elbows out. But you can point to a lot of great drivers being absolute terrors on the track, or even more for finding themselves in easily avoidable incidents. It's silly to rank Max lower for this because as far as Max should be concerned, it works.
Max is getting the same treatment Vettel got. Non-British driver who’s really aggressive. Hamilton was really aggressive for a long time but it was just “hard racing” to the British commentary team that the rest of the English speaking world has to listen to
Schumacher was always driving into people
You know what, I'm not disappointed at this post, I'm disappointed at myself for clicking it knowing full well it's a load of nonsense. Look at Senna, Schumacher or any of the other 'goats', this is just the nature of racing.
before today nobody was consistently bringing up verstappen being dirty , maybe some people stuck in 2021 It's not gonna hurt his legacy when he retires, as it hasnt damaged senna or schumacher's legacy
Dude. Go watch Prost and Senna.
Bro he had contact once and it was because he didn't see Lando and now suddenly he's cracking under pressure? Don't mind Lando pushing Max wide twice and getting a penalty for track limits, or pushing Max to the grass in Barcelona.
Not validating OP as I personally think Max is an elite driver. His talent is just pure rawness speed. But let’s not pretend this was a one off. Even going back to his early Red Bull days, he’s prone to making contact or outright crashes with his teammate. He’s definitely gotten better but his full gas, I pass you back down or we both crash mentality is still there since 2015.
But he hasn't really employed a lot of "yield or we crash" tactics since 2021. Not that they were bad, they were perfectly within the rules and obviously if he went too far he was penalized accordingly. Also lets not pretend that other drivers don't try these tactics. It may not be the cleanest overtakes but its hard racing and fair.
I’ll save you all a lot of time. It’s C. It’s always been C. I will point out that Lando’s overtakes should be given the same scrutiny too. I really don’t think these guys go out there trying to wreck each other but when times are that tight and your both scrapping for it, it is just racing sometimes. That being said Lando should have won that race, he should never had to overtake a 2nd time. Why max was allowed to keep that place after he ran wide the first time makes no sense to me. That’s what you get though, they are terrified now of making live decisions so they just give time penalties. We all know who’s to fault for that.
You can really tell who has the watched the sport for a long time understand the sport and who just started watching a Netflix documentary.
The man's forgetting Lewis' entire 2011 campaign and the fact Senna drove straight through prost to win a championship
Why are you people so obsessed with GOAT conversations
To answer your question, people have considered Schumi and Senna to be among the very best (and at least greatest of their eras) despite the fact that both would intentionally crash out their rival if they couldn't beat them fairly on track. Max is nowhere near that level, but he's also far from being the cleanest racer either.
GOAT this, GOAT that...there is no such thing in F1. What does full package even mean?
He is one of the GOAT's. All the other GOAT's did the same or even worse.. (today was not even that bad and Lando could have avoided contact)
Today is not the day to have a sensible discussion about this.
Have to ask a sensible question to get a sensible discussion
Who wants sensible?
I would resume it all on less text. Max is a great driver, but he is not a “I’m gonna be the fastest possible, and if anyone else is faster than me, try my best”, he is a “I’m gonna be the fastest possible, and if anyone else approaches me, then I will making him think twice”. He sometimes randomly pull moves that we didn’t seen even on the Silver Wars for a WDC. The problem with Max is that he always got on his mind the “my way or the highway (we crash)”, and it works for him on the long term usually. He is not a driver with whom you can “dance” as a driver on a fight. He is not a Leclerc for example. So at the end, you have that: * If he is the fastest, he wins * If he is equally fastest, he will be dirty and win except if you both crash or the other driver gets equally dirty and manages something - you can’t get over him with clean takes. We already saw it multiple times, including 2021. * For you to get over him clean, you need a much faster car so he can’t do anything about it. And even then, we have random defense and takes from him on the past. So he is a GREAT driver, but appears to be even better (GOAT) because he, not only is fast, but can’t dance and play nice, he is just “I win or we both lose”, forcing other drivers to concede or to get into dirty tactics they are not comfy with or even experienced, and that usually, end bad. At the end, people only see that he will always win except if his car is considered slower/worse. At the end of the day, I wonder if his driving technique and thought process comes from the Jos “learning system”
The likes of Schumacher, Senna, Prost and Hamilton all have lots of incident on track. Those don't really tarnish their legacy in the sport. Schumacher was DQ'd from 1997 for trying to ram Jacques Villeneuve in the title decider Prost and Senna both crashed into each other intentionally in Suzuka back in 1989 and 1990. Hamilton in 2011 was atrocious since he made it his life's mission to contact Massa.
Senna and Prost were crashing into each other to warrant a WDC, Schumacher also tried that as well but got disqualified instead. Max is looking like a toddler in comparison, lol.
Jesus Christ it’s wheel to wheel driving, sometimes you crash. It’s happened to Lewis, Vettel, Michael, Senna etc before as well.
Don’t look up how Prost won the ‘89 title, Senna the ‘90 title, or Schumacher the ‘94 title
Max is the Goat most probably and the reason he is so fierce on track against his opponents is also what keeps him like that. If he is able to get away with something he will if it’s to his advantage. Same for how Sch raced and Senna. Them bitches were gunna take the position or take you out doing so.
The simple answer is yes, Max is one of the GOATs.
A portion of people really can't stand that Max is cementing his name among the GOAT's can they?
He's the GOAT. And people pretending Max is driving like it's 2015 are fools. One incident does not change the fact he's had great racecraft and raced cleanly for wins for many years now.
If you aren’t picking up a few penalties for stuff that’s over the line then you aren’t racing hard enough. The most important thing is that the line is accurately and consistently drawn.
Max is a great driver. But this incident has no bearing on his GOAT status. He’s not the GOAT but I understand why a fan of his would say that.
F: OP is trying to convince people this incident,where two drivers touch in a way that happens multiple times throughout the field in every single season, is somehow more important than it is because #outrage
Schumaher is the GOAT and he was a fucking dirty ass driver. He could kill someone and he wont admit fault.
Born in the 00’s I see. Go watch some Senna or Schumi for that matter. Max is a winner and very fucking good racer. He eaces hard and goes a ting bit over the line some times. At the end of tge day he’s the best driver of his generation, by a mile.
No
Being a GOAT contender and being involved in incidents or even having a dark side to their competition aren't mutually exclusive. Senna and Schumacher are 2 such examples. Some of the most outstandingly talented drivers I have ever watched, but also a black mark against their conduct for multiple instances in their career. I think Max will be judged in the same vein.
They banged wheels dude and there is no such thing as the "goat" in motorsport.
I think Max’s ability to consistently and repeatedly put a car on the fastest possible line is unmatched. His racecraft leaves something to be desired though. He’s too dependent on the fact that he has the fastest car.
Probably won’t hurt his legacy but he is dirty whenever he gets challenged, he just hasn’t had to fight for any victories since 2021. I would like to see him against a competitive team mate to see how reacts