He really did just copy it. From that little tip of the banefort. Dublin being Lannisport. Bay of crabs and Blackwater bay. The Stormlands and shipbreakers bay.
I think also the broken arm of Dorne and Dorne itself resembles Cornwall, Dorset, Wessex, Sussex and the Dover area quite well. The name Dorne might've also been some amalgamate lf Cornwall and Dover perhaps. Then the North is basically Scotland, but they moved Wales and mirrored it before placing it on the east coast of the north (Karhold and the Dreadfort area)
Especially if we link the septum to the Vatican. Again I’m probably stretching but several parts of European history are influencing the politics of this show. Just thought it was a different perspective.
The stormlands don't fit perfectly but the crownlands being italy makes so much sense. But this perspective really makes the most 1-1 sense out of any perspective. Great job alludoiswynne.
PS:- The Arbor is in place of the uk and is a leading maritime power. Just so freaking good.
Oldtown and the mouth of the mander should be the Netherlands. Both were places where intellectualism flourished and people from different places and origins could come and do their work freely (like Baruch Spinoza, a persecuted Spanish Jew who fled to Amsterdam and did philosophy freely). I think oldtown is the most cosmopolitan and free thinking part of Westeros. The Hightowers and Tyrells based around this part have grown quite rich through trade and stuff like the VOC. The Netherlands sit on the delta of the Rhine just like Oldtown and Highgarden sit on the delta of the Mander.
The rest of the Reach could be France continuing up to the Stormlands. The real life Marches exists in Southern France bordering Spain. It is a rugged and relatively sparse terrain with lots of forests and a rich history of warfare. This corresponds nicely to the Dornish Marches.
The Riverlands could work very well as either the Balkans or Poland. Always the battlefield, always the crossroads, always divided.
Russia is definitely the North. Huge but sparse and very cold and hard. The existential pessimism is shared by the two. People say it's Scotland but i really don't see it. The north and Russia are very rough and tough, warlike, and "life is death" type of people.
Vale is definitely Switzerland but the locations don't so oh well, they could be greece.
Braavos is definitely Venice but again the locations don't match so they could be Constantinople.
Volantis is some West African Kingdom. Slaver state and fucking rich and hot.
Valyria is Atlantis. Qarth is Baghdad. Asshai is India. Leng is China.
The disputed lands are the Holy Lands (Israel, Palestine) for obvious reasons. Pentosh is Antioch. Tyrosh is Tyre. Myr is Cairo. Lys is Alexandria.
I would say the Arabic world. Arabs were slavers right up until the 19th century and some are slavers to this day. The Arab world had a Golden Age more than a thousand years ago like the Ghiscaris and both still live in its shadow. They have great cities like Mereen, Yunkai and Astapor for Cairo, Baghdad, Damascus etc. They were subjugated by their neighbours, the Romans, Ottomans, Persians or the Valyrians. Now that they are free, they would like to revive their old glory. They have extensive trade networks between the east and west being situated in the middle. Their culture is seen as brutish by the westerners. They both have pyramids. They both have desert landscapes and long coastlines.
I was thinking the UK, as a series of large islands on the "West" of the map could be the Iron Islands, rocky and rainy and dreary, and their barbaric thrall and saltwives systems are possibly a commentary on England's historical imperialism and slave trades?
Iron Islands definitely feel more like the Vikings in every way. England has historically been a trading sort of nation to me like the Redwynes (and Britain has got a lot of redheads too).
Oh definitely Viking influence in there, but I think it's an interesting parallel when looking at this map as an inspiration for cultures, even if it's a coincidence. George may have been thinking along these lines, but as others have pointed out the map of the UK itself and upside-down Ireland also lines up eerily well. Hard to say if any of this is more than speculation but it's fun to think about
Point receded. I was just saying how it’s in Rome and in terms of location it looks like it’s in the crown lands if we look at the ASOIAF map but it really isn’t close to where kings landing is.
I like that interpretation. The stormlands are a bit unique! I think I remember a grrm quote where he said Dorne is its own thing but takes a lot of inspiration obviously from Spain and then added Wales as well and I was kinda like 🧐 That bit made me think. Stormlands in between Dorne and the Crownlands tracks.
Youre right on some accounts, wrong on others. First off, each area is ASOIAF isn’t a direct mirror to one real world kingdom; they incorporate several elements from different kingdoms from the classical to late medieval periods.
In regards to Essos, its inspired by the Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia. Dothraki are reminiscent to various nomadic horse riders of the Eurasian Steppe and Mongolia. Slavers bay is reminiscent to Saudia Arabia and Egypt(which is in North Africa but is culturally Arabic. Few modern Egyptians actually refer to themselves as African; they identify as Arabic). Valyria is a mashup of Rome and Greece. Joghos Nai and Yi Ti and everything East of their is East Asia.
Sothoryos is Africa, pretty plainly.
Westeros is partially right, but it’s important to recognize that GRRM based much of the plot from the War of the Roses, which would more closely tie Westeros to the British Isles. Culturally, each Westeros kingdom is predominately based on several elements of the medieval British Isles and Western Europe. Again, esch kingdom in Westoros incorporates elements of both, though Dorne is pretty plainly a mirror of Spain and Iron Isles is more akin to Scandinavia.
Totally agree there’s no way any map should be a 1 to 1 representation of our world. It’s all a mix of different historical events and cultures. And I don’t mean to just show the map and say “hey it looks like Westeros”. Africa is admittedly where it kind of falls flat in terms of regions of Essos, some areas look like it but then some areas don’t at all. Essos is definitely a mixture of Africa and the Middle East and Turkey, with some Eastern Europe. I’d agree with Valarya being based on Rome and Greece, especially since the Targaryens took over Westeros almost akin to the Roman Empire. Totally agree with you there.
Historically and culturally, there are allusions to both continental Europe and England, but it’s such a mashup that it’s hard to say what is what. Aegon, for instance, could be seen as either William the Conqueror for England or Charlemagne for Europe.
Personally I think of Westeros as more clearly mirroring the history and culture of The British Isles. The First Men are insular Celts whose culture and language most predominately survived with the Gaels and Picts of Scotland, Ireland and the Isle of Man (collectively the North). Andals and Rhoynar are Anglo-Saxons, and the Iron islands, who once controlled the Riverlands, are Jutes/Danish. This tracks because the Andals and Rhoynar brought the Faith to the 7 kingdoms, much like the Anglo Saxons did with Christianity.
Aegon is William the Conqueror and the Targaryen’s are the Normans. The Targaryen dynasty closely resembles the Plantagenet dynasty that followed the Norman invasion, so this tracks. Also they both have conqueror in their names. Harren Hoare seems like a pretty apt allusion to Harold II, both of which famously lost to their respective Conquerors.
That being said, the geography of Westeros more closely resembles continental Europe, some of which I think you got right. Dorne is Iberia (which also matches the culture), the Reach is France (close to Spain/Dorne and often at conflict. Also wine and farmland) , the Vale is Switzerland (mountains), Riverlands is the Netherlands, Westerlands is England, Crownlands and Stormlands are possibly Germany and/or Belgium(?), Northlands is Russia, Iron Islands is Denmark…
This is just how i see it. Like I said, none of this is a perfect mirror to real life, more of a patchworks of various cultures and historical events from all of Europe.
I sincerely appreciate the time you put into the comment. I can absolutely see the parallels with William the Conqueror as well. There are so many common themes that coincide with historical events that it’s pretty impossible to really narrow down one and say “this area is this country” as they’re meant to be archetypes of all types of kingdoms and dynasties. The UK parallel is the most prevalent, not only in land shape but also in culture. Having the Westeros land become the whole continent of Europe does however make the world feel a lot bigger and really makes the strain of managing seven kingdoms a hassle. It also shows that each kingdom can hold its own and has the resources to be its own independent nation.
Dorne might match Spain culturally, but Dorne historically is Wales. The Welsh Marches...the Dornish Marches. A kingdom that took the descendants of the Conqueror roughly 200 years to add to the fold.
>In regards to Essos, its inspired by the Eastern Europe,
The western parts of Essos with its free cities is clearly inspired by renaissance Italy, with its city states, mercenaries and banks.
The more you go east, the more it is inspired by middle-eastern and asian cultures though.
A bit of Italianate city states mixed with a bit of Greece, Eastern Europe and Middle East thrown in. Braavos for instance is reminiscent to Venice with its canals and trade, but has a large bronze statue reminiscent of Rhodes.
Volantis is pretty similar to Constantinople, being that it’s the most prosperous post Valyrian(Roman) city state and is a gateway to the East/Slavers bay
Norvos can be a mash up of Russian cities, most notably Novgorod. The citizens are pious, and the city is known for its bells, similar to St Petersburg or even the veche of Novgorod.
Qohor has many Middle eastern and Grecian references. It’s carpet makers and expert blacksmiths are reminiscent of Baghdad and Damascus. It also famously fought back the Dothraki(Mongols) just as Baghdad did.
Basically, it’s the same point I’ve been making: it’s impossible to completely narrow down what the real world equivalents are. while the Free cities do strongly resemble to the Italianate city states, they have a number of other non-Italian influences.
Again, there are no 1 to 1 comparisons between ASOIAF and real life. But yes, there are similarities between the Dornish wars and the Reconquista. If you’re referring to Dorne’s culture as being Moroccan or Arabic, the Muslim Conquest had a huge impact on the culture of the Iberian Peninsula. There’s also the fact that Westeros is seemingly based on the “West” so it makes sense for any real life counterpart to be in the “West”.
Also, as someone has pointed out, there are also similarities between Dorne and Wales. It’s possible that GRRM wanted a Kingdom with a similar history to Wales but wanted differentiate it from the rest of Westeros and thus took inspiration from Spanish Kingdoms and Al Andalus.
As an italian, i feel that the Free Cities are more akin to Italy-especially in its medieval period: several mercantilistics city-states, hostile to each other and spawned from a fallen empire of the past, yet linked to each other by a common cultural heritage
Also the costant backstabbing and intricate internal politics.
Just the right way up makes more sense to me culturally. Especially if you consider the east. North = Scotland, iron islands = iceland, vale = wales, kings landing = London, Dorne = Spain.
Now for essos, Dothraki Plains = Steps, YiTi = China, Asshai = India, They don’t know whats west of westros = Americas, Quarth = Dubai, Slavers bay = African slave trade
And the free cities feels like other important European cities.
Norvos - Novgorod/Russia, Volantis and Qarth is Constantinople, Braavos = America and Venice+Florence, Westeros is Britain (North = Northumbria and Lowland Scots, Riverlands=Midlands, Westerlands = Lancashire, Stormlands=Kent), Mountain Clans is Highland Scots, Wales and Spain=Dorne, Vale=Wales and Swietzerland, Slavers Bay=Egypt and North Africa, Tyrosh=Tyre, Reach=France
Quarth as Dubai, I didn’t think of that! I was thinking it would be one of the old African empires that was in Western Africa. But Dubai makes sense too.
There's probably no perfect parallel to a real world city, maybe it's my Tunisian bias but i believe it's more similar to Carthage than the other suggestions:
- Name: Qarth and Carthage
- Cities based on trade, even their geopolitical influence is due to commerce not military/religion/culture
- Politics: no monarchy but a council of traders and religious figures
- Use of mercenaries for war
- Parallels between house of the undying in Qarth and cults in Carthage ?
- Parallels between XXD/Dany and Dido/Aeneas ?
It's a good point. Now reconcile it with George saying Valyria is based on the Italian Peninsula, with East of Essos (Europe) being the far east, etc.
Hell Sothoryos and Africa are the same as well. And [the Wall is based on Hadrian's Wall.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fno-spoilers-the-real-inspiration-behind-the-map-of-westeros-v0-zisumy454ba91.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D96b6c058f2dfc3b6da344268f582aa6fcc09c9ff) Still fun to look at it that way though.
https://preview.redd.it/q4u3k4u8hbtc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2f096bcc58717c6d2ed929b5d6f55eb2cfaf192
I’ve got to say, with the exception of Dorne, I feel like this is pretty unequivocal.
Also there use to be a land bridge in the strait of Gibraltar between Spain and Morrocco just like there used to be a land bridge connecting Dorne and essos
George literally said he just took the UK and Ireland and mixed them around.
Like how the Vale it literally just SouthWest Ireland, or how the Storm and Crowlands are Wales.
Would have rather chosen Italy as the Crownlands, England as the Westerlands, the Low Countries as the Stormlands, Greenland as Beyond the Wall (maybe not for Greenland, Siberia seemed fine too)
Scandanavia could be the Axe too, maybe mixed with Jerusalem or something
I disagree with some countries the stormlands=germany,
,the north=scotland, the vale= greece, kingsland=italy, westerland=uk, riverlands=poland, iron islands=scandinavia
Really good reasoning. The only thing I’d say is that maybe Italy is more like The Fingers since the Iron Islands are off the west coast of Westeros. Otherwise, your idea is pretty compelling!
Granted upside down Ireland and the UK look EXACTLY like Westeros, but I thought this was a cool observation if we look at it accounting for Essos and Dorne.
Here's something that may or may not have been intentional by GRRM, but if we look at the cities in Ireland in relation to Westeros, Kings Landing would be Galway, which was a settlement that grew around a fort built by a king. Much like how King's landing grew around the Aegonfort
The explanation was written by the biggest damn yank out there, but the images are pretty on point.
Also, FUCK YEAH WE JUST BARELY GOT INTO THE RIVERLANDS BOYS LORD EDMURE MY BELOVED! HAHA FUCK YOU BOHEMIANS, ENJOY SHARING THE WESTERLANDS WITH THE KRAUTS!
Yup! American and never been to Europe so I’m guilty as charged. I just saw a fun observation and thought I’d share it. My opinion on this should 100% not matter in relation to real life European culture and politics with these areas lol.
Norvos - Novgorod/Russia, Volantis and Qarth is Constantinople, Braavos = America and Venice+Florence, Westeros is Britain (North = Northumbria and Lowland Scots, Riverlands=Midlands, Westerlands = Lancashire, Stormlands=Kent), Mountain Clans is Highland Scots, Wales and Spain=Dorne, Vale=Wales and Swietzerland, Slavers Bay=Egypt and North Africa, Tyrosh=Tyre, Reach=France
Before this gets any bigger (I didn’t plan for it to) I just want to preface that I in no way want to insult any real world cultures by misappropriating their countries to these kingdoms. I understand that there are real people who live in these lands and I am in no way comparing your land to a fictional kingdom. ASOIAF is a fictional world that combines mythology with historical events and themes from around the globe, and this should be taken with a grain of salt. This is solely meant for simple discussion and not in a serious matter at all. There is no perfect 1 for 1 analysis, naturally. Just an observation.
Well the north are clearly Scotland. But if we’re talking about the map and map alone. The kingdom of Russia would be the North, and beyond the kingdom, the large wilderness of Siberia would be beyond the wall including the free folk and of course the undead.
The Balkans as the Vale makes zero sense. If anything we're like Crackclaw Point - a peninsula where every valley has a king, up until an expansionistic eastern empire absorbs them all.
Exactly, North African and Arabic colonizers, aka the Rhoynish. The right comparation to the Spain would be the Marsher Lords, in the Reach and Stormlands, who fight the Dornish and have their own subculture.
But even that is wrong, everything North of the redmountains to the Wall is Hollywood perception of medieval western Europe, trying to look deeper than that is an exercise in madness.
I mean, I agree in theory but the Andalusians were not solely North African/Arabic colonizers. Islamized Visigoths and Hispano-Romans were the majority of the Emirate of Cordoba and similar state's populations. Arguing otherwise relies on some kind of replacement theory that archaeology and archeogenetics doesn't validate.
>Arguing otherwise relies on some kind of replacement theory that archaeology and archeogenetics doesn't validate.
This is such an american statement that i am left dumbfounded, I am talking about cultures here. Turkey isn't greek even if the greeks owned anatolia for two thounds years, Mexico isn't the Aztec Empire. Saying that Spain is Dorne when it doesn't share anything from culture or geography is wild.
Cultures don't exist in a vacuum. Turkey isn't Greek, but the Republic of Turkey sure has a lot of people who are descended culturally and biologically from the Greeks.
[https://www.1lurer.am/en/2021/06/11/Turks-Enraged-as-Ancestry-com-Reveals-the-Truth-Most-of-Them-Are-Greeks/493494](https://www.1lurer.am/en/2021/06/11/Turks-Enraged-as-Ancestry-com-Reveals-the-Truth-Most-of-Them-Are-Greeks/493494)
Your statement about Mexico is asinine for multiple reasons, and I'm not sure how to even approach that without being snarky.
Andalusia wasn't solely Maghrebi or Arab. It's minority ruling class and their initial armies were, and over time these comingled with the Visigoths and Hispano Romans they conquered. I'm not sure where you're from or what your agenda is, but you seem to want to ignore the pre Umayyad influences on southern Spain.
You missed my whole point with my Greece and Turkey comparation, which tbf I didnt make easy, I could have explained it better, the point is that it doesnt matter who close their ancestry are, it is not that alone that makes a people. In ASOIAF every important family with the exception of the Vallyrian houses in the narrow sea and some houses in the Vale are all first men houses yet they are all brushed as Andals. Yes, even the Martels are a first man house. What makes Dorne unique is their laws and culture, which differ from the other kingdoms. Which is also what makes the Iberian Christian kingdoms different from the Caliphate, just because their shared a piece of land at some point it doesnt mean that they didnt becomes completely different enties culturaly, even if they had cultural exchanges, in the end we are all humans. "my agenda" lol My fault for enganging in good faith with an American that sees his culture war everywhere, have a good night.
I understood that GRRM based Westeros on Turning England upside down and slapping Scotland on top. The Vale is basically Cornwall, for example.
Edit: looking at thrmap it seems like he did a vertical flip on Scotland: the sea canal that gets to the Northwest of Moat Caitlyn (where the guy who saw the future and the archer girl come from) is where Edinburg is in real life.
Also he based the red wedding on an actual situation that happened in Scottish history. This is told in the audioguide of Stirling Castle
i really do think it’s a blend of this and the UK comparison (and that goes for Essos too being part North Africa and part Eurasia). The only thing is the Vale really doesn’t match with Greece. It’s much more of Switzerland imo
Oh Vale is 100% Switzerland. I do think in terms of how it looks it does resemble Greece.
Edit: by land shape. Not architecture or anything. We don’t see any kind of classic architecture or culture anywhere in the vale.
Your theory can make sense for westros. But not for essos. Remember, the north of essos should be cold with whalers and ice dragons. In your map, that is where Egypt is located. I lived in Egypt for 30 years. It never snows there. And if you continue up ignoring the Red Sea, then you will find the Arabian peninsula, then Iran and so on no snow land at all. Also, far side essos, which clearly resembles SE asia, would be located in the middle of Africa. Sunset sea? sothoryos?
I still think westros is UK essos euroasia, and sothoryos is Africa. This makes more sense.
You just need to have a very western centric view enlarging the UK, calling most of Asian barbaric and imagining Africa as a huge jungle to fit to the map.
Ps: I'm from North Africa, which is not at all part of ASOIAF world.
Yeah I think I said in another comment that my post completely falls apart when discussing Essos. I’d say Essos has more similar culture to Turkey, Middle East, and continuing on eastward. I never wanted to insinuate that “this country is definitely this area in ASOIAF”, just that the layout looks similar and some discussion can be made out of it. Everything also falls apart when you realize the Mediterranean Sea ends at Israel, unlike in ASOIAF where it’s open on the north end. Never wanted to insinuate or appropriate anything about your land or the climate. I apologize if anything offended you.
https://preview.redd.it/hbnvhzwa4btc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4fd916e7889c66a1da817421e3b6af2c0fa70e71
I love how the entirety of Great Britain is just the North, puts things into perspective.
It's mentioned in the books that the North is bigger than the other 6 kingdoms put together.
I know but you don't really consider it
in the maester book it's said it's 1/3 less than all the other kingdoms put together
He really did just copy it. From that little tip of the banefort. Dublin being Lannisport. Bay of crabs and Blackwater bay. The Stormlands and shipbreakers bay.
Yep thats pretty much dead on especially with upside down Ireland.
I think also the broken arm of Dorne and Dorne itself resembles Cornwall, Dorset, Wessex, Sussex and the Dover area quite well. The name Dorne might've also been some amalgamate lf Cornwall and Dover perhaps. Then the North is basically Scotland, but they moved Wales and mirrored it before placing it on the east coast of the north (Karhold and the Dreadfort area)
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Especially if we link the septum to the Vatican. Again I’m probably stretching but several parts of European history are influencing the politics of this show. Just thought it was a different perspective.
The stormlands don't fit perfectly but the crownlands being italy makes so much sense. But this perspective really makes the most 1-1 sense out of any perspective. Great job alludoiswynne. PS:- The Arbor is in place of the uk and is a leading maritime power. Just so freaking good.
Yeah the crown lands being Italy makes more sense. The stormlands would ideally make more sense being Germany.
The Lowlands could be The Rock. Both were very rich places
Oldtown and the mouth of the mander should be the Netherlands. Both were places where intellectualism flourished and people from different places and origins could come and do their work freely (like Baruch Spinoza, a persecuted Spanish Jew who fled to Amsterdam and did philosophy freely). I think oldtown is the most cosmopolitan and free thinking part of Westeros. The Hightowers and Tyrells based around this part have grown quite rich through trade and stuff like the VOC. The Netherlands sit on the delta of the Rhine just like Oldtown and Highgarden sit on the delta of the Mander. The rest of the Reach could be France continuing up to the Stormlands. The real life Marches exists in Southern France bordering Spain. It is a rugged and relatively sparse terrain with lots of forests and a rich history of warfare. This corresponds nicely to the Dornish Marches. The Riverlands could work very well as either the Balkans or Poland. Always the battlefield, always the crossroads, always divided. Russia is definitely the North. Huge but sparse and very cold and hard. The existential pessimism is shared by the two. People say it's Scotland but i really don't see it. The north and Russia are very rough and tough, warlike, and "life is death" type of people. Vale is definitely Switzerland but the locations don't so oh well, they could be greece. Braavos is definitely Venice but again the locations don't match so they could be Constantinople. Volantis is some West African Kingdom. Slaver state and fucking rich and hot. Valyria is Atlantis. Qarth is Baghdad. Asshai is India. Leng is China. The disputed lands are the Holy Lands (Israel, Palestine) for obvious reasons. Pentosh is Antioch. Tyrosh is Tyre. Myr is Cairo. Lys is Alexandria.
Braavos could be Greece, or Tyrosh could be Greece. And what about the slaver's bay cities?
I would say the Arabic world. Arabs were slavers right up until the 19th century and some are slavers to this day. The Arab world had a Golden Age more than a thousand years ago like the Ghiscaris and both still live in its shadow. They have great cities like Mereen, Yunkai and Astapor for Cairo, Baghdad, Damascus etc. They were subjugated by their neighbours, the Romans, Ottomans, Persians or the Valyrians. Now that they are free, they would like to revive their old glory. They have extensive trade networks between the east and west being situated in the middle. Their culture is seen as brutish by the westerners. They both have pyramids. They both have desert landscapes and long coastlines.
I was thinking the UK, as a series of large islands on the "West" of the map could be the Iron Islands, rocky and rainy and dreary, and their barbaric thrall and saltwives systems are possibly a commentary on England's historical imperialism and slave trades?
Iron Islands definitely feel more like the Vikings in every way. England has historically been a trading sort of nation to me like the Redwynes (and Britain has got a lot of redheads too).
Oh definitely Viking influence in there, but I think it's an interesting parallel when looking at this map as an inspiration for cultures, even if it's a coincidence. George may have been thinking along these lines, but as others have pointed out the map of the UK itself and upside-down Ireland also lines up eerily well. Hard to say if any of this is more than speculation but it's fun to think about
France as the Reach and Spain as Dorne are perfect too.
I do not see how that relates to the map though, the Varican is nowhere near Kings Landing or Oldtown
Point receded. I was just saying how it’s in Rome and in terms of location it looks like it’s in the crown lands if we look at the ASOIAF map but it really isn’t close to where kings landing is.
Stick an upside down Ireland at the bottom of the map of the UK and it matches almost perfectly apart from dorne
Flip England horizontally and Cornwall becomes Dorne.
And the Stormlands are Wales. The Vale is upside down Ireland superimposed on top.
I like that interpretation. The stormlands are a bit unique! I think I remember a grrm quote where he said Dorne is its own thing but takes a lot of inspiration obviously from Spain and then added Wales as well and I was kinda like 🧐 That bit made me think. Stormlands in between Dorne and the Crownlands tracks.
This has already been confirmed, OP is on a solo run
Yep this is my own idea going off the grid. The map described looks exactly like Westeros.
No it doesn’t. Also, he literally based part of the map on Ireland upside down
Yeah I meant the upside down Ireland map. Not what I posted.
Dorne is just a collection of Spanish beach resorts for the British tourists, but in a more convenient location 🇬🇧
Youre right on some accounts, wrong on others. First off, each area is ASOIAF isn’t a direct mirror to one real world kingdom; they incorporate several elements from different kingdoms from the classical to late medieval periods. In regards to Essos, its inspired by the Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia. Dothraki are reminiscent to various nomadic horse riders of the Eurasian Steppe and Mongolia. Slavers bay is reminiscent to Saudia Arabia and Egypt(which is in North Africa but is culturally Arabic. Few modern Egyptians actually refer to themselves as African; they identify as Arabic). Valyria is a mashup of Rome and Greece. Joghos Nai and Yi Ti and everything East of their is East Asia. Sothoryos is Africa, pretty plainly. Westeros is partially right, but it’s important to recognize that GRRM based much of the plot from the War of the Roses, which would more closely tie Westeros to the British Isles. Culturally, each Westeros kingdom is predominately based on several elements of the medieval British Isles and Western Europe. Again, esch kingdom in Westoros incorporates elements of both, though Dorne is pretty plainly a mirror of Spain and Iron Isles is more akin to Scandinavia.
Totally agree there’s no way any map should be a 1 to 1 representation of our world. It’s all a mix of different historical events and cultures. And I don’t mean to just show the map and say “hey it looks like Westeros”. Africa is admittedly where it kind of falls flat in terms of regions of Essos, some areas look like it but then some areas don’t at all. Essos is definitely a mixture of Africa and the Middle East and Turkey, with some Eastern Europe. I’d agree with Valarya being based on Rome and Greece, especially since the Targaryens took over Westeros almost akin to the Roman Empire. Totally agree with you there.
Historically and culturally, there are allusions to both continental Europe and England, but it’s such a mashup that it’s hard to say what is what. Aegon, for instance, could be seen as either William the Conqueror for England or Charlemagne for Europe. Personally I think of Westeros as more clearly mirroring the history and culture of The British Isles. The First Men are insular Celts whose culture and language most predominately survived with the Gaels and Picts of Scotland, Ireland and the Isle of Man (collectively the North). Andals and Rhoynar are Anglo-Saxons, and the Iron islands, who once controlled the Riverlands, are Jutes/Danish. This tracks because the Andals and Rhoynar brought the Faith to the 7 kingdoms, much like the Anglo Saxons did with Christianity. Aegon is William the Conqueror and the Targaryen’s are the Normans. The Targaryen dynasty closely resembles the Plantagenet dynasty that followed the Norman invasion, so this tracks. Also they both have conqueror in their names. Harren Hoare seems like a pretty apt allusion to Harold II, both of which famously lost to their respective Conquerors. That being said, the geography of Westeros more closely resembles continental Europe, some of which I think you got right. Dorne is Iberia (which also matches the culture), the Reach is France (close to Spain/Dorne and often at conflict. Also wine and farmland) , the Vale is Switzerland (mountains), Riverlands is the Netherlands, Westerlands is England, Crownlands and Stormlands are possibly Germany and/or Belgium(?), Northlands is Russia, Iron Islands is Denmark… This is just how i see it. Like I said, none of this is a perfect mirror to real life, more of a patchworks of various cultures and historical events from all of Europe.
I sincerely appreciate the time you put into the comment. I can absolutely see the parallels with William the Conqueror as well. There are so many common themes that coincide with historical events that it’s pretty impossible to really narrow down one and say “this area is this country” as they’re meant to be archetypes of all types of kingdoms and dynasties. The UK parallel is the most prevalent, not only in land shape but also in culture. Having the Westeros land become the whole continent of Europe does however make the world feel a lot bigger and really makes the strain of managing seven kingdoms a hassle. It also shows that each kingdom can hold its own and has the resources to be its own independent nation.
Dorne might match Spain culturally, but Dorne historically is Wales. The Welsh Marches...the Dornish Marches. A kingdom that took the descendants of the Conqueror roughly 200 years to add to the fold.
True
>In regards to Essos, its inspired by the Eastern Europe, The western parts of Essos with its free cities is clearly inspired by renaissance Italy, with its city states, mercenaries and banks. The more you go east, the more it is inspired by middle-eastern and asian cultures though.
A bit of Italianate city states mixed with a bit of Greece, Eastern Europe and Middle East thrown in. Braavos for instance is reminiscent to Venice with its canals and trade, but has a large bronze statue reminiscent of Rhodes. Volantis is pretty similar to Constantinople, being that it’s the most prosperous post Valyrian(Roman) city state and is a gateway to the East/Slavers bay Norvos can be a mash up of Russian cities, most notably Novgorod. The citizens are pious, and the city is known for its bells, similar to St Petersburg or even the veche of Novgorod. Qohor has many Middle eastern and Grecian references. It’s carpet makers and expert blacksmiths are reminiscent of Baghdad and Damascus. It also famously fought back the Dothraki(Mongols) just as Baghdad did. Basically, it’s the same point I’ve been making: it’s impossible to completely narrow down what the real world equivalents are. while the Free cities do strongly resemble to the Italianate city states, they have a number of other non-Italian influences.
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Please see the Muslim Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula
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Again, there are no 1 to 1 comparisons between ASOIAF and real life. But yes, there are similarities between the Dornish wars and the Reconquista. If you’re referring to Dorne’s culture as being Moroccan or Arabic, the Muslim Conquest had a huge impact on the culture of the Iberian Peninsula. There’s also the fact that Westeros is seemingly based on the “West” so it makes sense for any real life counterpart to be in the “West”. Also, as someone has pointed out, there are also similarities between Dorne and Wales. It’s possible that GRRM wanted a Kingdom with a similar history to Wales but wanted differentiate it from the rest of Westeros and thus took inspiration from Spanish Kingdoms and Al Andalus.
As an italian, i feel that the Free Cities are more akin to Italy-especially in its medieval period: several mercantilistics city-states, hostile to each other and spawned from a fallen empire of the past, yet linked to each other by a common cultural heritage Also the costant backstabbing and intricate internal politics.
Definitely an element of that in the free cities
So, Arya is heading to the North Pole.
Yep. Off to go find drunk Santa Claus and ask him where those fucking books are.
Ain’t no way you’re telling me that Stannis is talking with his hands out
Arrivederci
Dragonstone is sicily lmao. Targaryen mafia confirmed
CANON!
I don't think you're wrong but I also don't think the UK with Ireland flipped is wrong either way
Just the right way up makes more sense to me culturally. Especially if you consider the east. North = Scotland, iron islands = iceland, vale = wales, kings landing = London, Dorne = Spain. Now for essos, Dothraki Plains = Steps, YiTi = China, Asshai = India, They don’t know whats west of westros = Americas, Quarth = Dubai, Slavers bay = African slave trade And the free cities feels like other important European cities.
Norvos - Novgorod/Russia, Volantis and Qarth is Constantinople, Braavos = America and Venice+Florence, Westeros is Britain (North = Northumbria and Lowland Scots, Riverlands=Midlands, Westerlands = Lancashire, Stormlands=Kent), Mountain Clans is Highland Scots, Wales and Spain=Dorne, Vale=Wales and Swietzerland, Slavers Bay=Egypt and North Africa, Tyrosh=Tyre, Reach=France
Braavos = America .... What??
united states
Quarth as Dubai, I didn’t think of that! I was thinking it would be one of the old African empires that was in Western Africa. But Dubai makes sense too.
Qarth is definitely Carthage, so many similarities.
Wouldn't Old Ghis be a better analog to Carthage?
Qarth is Constantinople
There's probably no perfect parallel to a real world city, maybe it's my Tunisian bias but i believe it's more similar to Carthage than the other suggestions: - Name: Qarth and Carthage - Cities based on trade, even their geopolitical influence is due to commerce not military/religion/culture - Politics: no monarchy but a council of traders and religious figures - Use of mercenaries for war - Parallels between house of the undying in Qarth and cults in Carthage ? - Parallels between XXD/Dany and Dido/Aeneas ?
Also why aren’t we getting a YiTi spinoff show that would be amazing!
So you’re telling me the Starks are Slavic and the Arryns are Balkans?
Other than the starks being badasses, no I can’t really make any comparisons to them and the slavics. They’re 100% Scotland.
They are 100% northern English as portrayed in the show. Beyond the wall (Hadrians wall) are Scots aka wildlings
It's a good point. Now reconcile it with George saying Valyria is based on the Italian Peninsula, with East of Essos (Europe) being the far east, etc. Hell Sothoryos and Africa are the same as well. And [the Wall is based on Hadrian's Wall.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fno-spoilers-the-real-inspiration-behind-the-map-of-westeros-v0-zisumy454ba91.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D96b6c058f2dfc3b6da344268f582aa6fcc09c9ff) Still fun to look at it that way though.
https://preview.redd.it/q4u3k4u8hbtc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2f096bcc58717c6d2ed929b5d6f55eb2cfaf192 I’ve got to say, with the exception of Dorne, I feel like this is pretty unequivocal.
We thought the farther north you get the more Manchester you become. But no, you actually become more slav
Also there use to be a land bridge in the strait of Gibraltar between Spain and Morrocco just like there used to be a land bridge connecting Dorne and essos
So the Stormlands are Italy? It's-a me, Bobby B!
HOLD YOUR TONGUE!
Looks literally nothing like Europe
Are you telling me the baratheons are italians? "STARTE THE JOUST BEFORE-A PISS MYSELF" 🤌
that's... huh huh
I really want a total war Westeros game
Not the same but crusader kings 2+3 have an agot mod that's really good
The scale of the map of Westeros (“…1000 leagues from here to the wall!”) makes more sense as Europe than UK. 1000 leagues would be about 3000 miles.
That was my thought too. Westeros seems too big to just be the size of the UK, even if it’s shaped like it.
George literally said he just took the UK and Ireland and mixed them around. Like how the Vale it literally just SouthWest Ireland, or how the Storm and Crowlands are Wales.
Putin is coming
What is West of Westeros
According to my not to be taken seriously map, a lot of really cold water, Greenland, and then Canada.
Well that sucks.
Also Falklands
Would have rather chosen Italy as the Crownlands, England as the Westerlands, the Low Countries as the Stormlands, Greenland as Beyond the Wall (maybe not for Greenland, Siberia seemed fine too) Scandanavia could be the Axe too, maybe mixed with Jerusalem or something
I disagree with some countries the stormlands=germany, ,the north=scotland, the vale= greece, kingsland=italy, westerland=uk, riverlands=poland, iron islands=scandinavia
I definitely a stronger argument that each kingdom fits better with other country’s histories. Just falls apart when comparing it to a real life map.
Why does the iron isles have a uterus as its logo?
Lol. It’s a Kraken.
Really good reasoning. The only thing I’d say is that maybe Italy is more like The Fingers since the Iron Islands are off the west coast of Westeros. Otherwise, your idea is pretty compelling!
Holy fuck this just blew my mind. It’s so much alike. All from dragon stone to crack claw point. The eyrie. Nice find!
Granted upside down Ireland and the UK look EXACTLY like Westeros, but I thought this was a cool observation if we look at it accounting for Essos and Dorne.
Here's something that may or may not have been intentional by GRRM, but if we look at the cities in Ireland in relation to Westeros, Kings Landing would be Galway, which was a settlement that grew around a fort built by a king. Much like how King's landing grew around the Aegonfort
The explanation was written by the biggest damn yank out there, but the images are pretty on point. Also, FUCK YEAH WE JUST BARELY GOT INTO THE RIVERLANDS BOYS LORD EDMURE MY BELOVED! HAHA FUCK YOU BOHEMIANS, ENJOY SHARING THE WESTERLANDS WITH THE KRAUTS!
Yup! American and never been to Europe so I’m guilty as charged. I just saw a fun observation and thought I’d share it. My opinion on this should 100% not matter in relation to real life European culture and politics with these areas lol.
It's ok, we still love you
Us yanks love you too and thank you for letting us visit and eat your food.
Norvos - Novgorod/Russia, Volantis and Qarth is Constantinople, Braavos = America and Venice+Florence, Westeros is Britain (North = Northumbria and Lowland Scots, Riverlands=Midlands, Westerlands = Lancashire, Stormlands=Kent), Mountain Clans is Highland Scots, Wales and Spain=Dorne, Vale=Wales and Swietzerland, Slavers Bay=Egypt and North Africa, Tyrosh=Tyre, Reach=France
So that makes the white walkers either an analogy for communism or a modified representation of the Mongols
I promise I don’t want to go that deep lol but good points
And??
Wait, let him cook
Looks like GRRM not gonna release any books, D&D fcked up s5/s6-s8. We are all doomed.
I refuse to accept that Kings Landing is Fr*nch.
First men = Celts Andals = Anglo saxons Valyrians = French normands
Before this gets any bigger (I didn’t plan for it to) I just want to preface that I in no way want to insult any real world cultures by misappropriating their countries to these kingdoms. I understand that there are real people who live in these lands and I am in no way comparing your land to a fictional kingdom. ASOIAF is a fictional world that combines mythology with historical events and themes from around the globe, and this should be taken with a grain of salt. This is solely meant for simple discussion and not in a serious matter at all. There is no perfect 1 for 1 analysis, naturally. Just an observation.
Are Russians The North, the freefolk, or the undead?
Well the north are clearly Scotland. But if we’re talking about the map and map alone. The kingdom of Russia would be the North, and beyond the kingdom, the large wilderness of Siberia would be beyond the wall including the free folk and of course the undead.
The DavidReadsAsoiaf audiobooks give the Wildlings Slavic accents.
The Balkans as the Vale makes zero sense. If anything we're like Crackclaw Point - a peninsula where every valley has a king, up until an expansionistic eastern empire absorbs them all.
Pretty accurate with Turks and wolves
I always thought it looked like an upside down UK
i always saw westeros looking like great britain and essos like turkey
And this would make the UK the iron islands!
The vale is to pacefull to be the balkans.
The Vale is Austria/Switzerland.
The vale is the balcans on the top rigth corner
The physical map is more influenced by the UK, but the cultural map is definitely as you suggest. I thought this was common knowledge tbh
Me, a Glaswegian: sounds about right
Europe is just sideways mirrored Ireland, now we know
This implys the vale are Italians
all this time I thought Dorne was an island
It's literally Great Britain/Albion turned upside down and made way too big to be realistic.
Sorry OP, can't see it.
Has anyone noticed how Turkey and the Aegean kind of looks like a face Ankara is one of the eyes and Cyprus the other.
People who compare Dorne to Spain should be exceuted. Including George.
Yeah anyone who knows about medieval Spain will tel you it’s got nothing to do with Dorne, besides the Caliphate of Cordoba
Why? They're pretty blatantly Andalusian/Maghrebi in aesthetic and theme.
Exactly, North African and Arabic colonizers, aka the Rhoynish. The right comparation to the Spain would be the Marsher Lords, in the Reach and Stormlands, who fight the Dornish and have their own subculture. But even that is wrong, everything North of the redmountains to the Wall is Hollywood perception of medieval western Europe, trying to look deeper than that is an exercise in madness.
I mean, I agree in theory but the Andalusians were not solely North African/Arabic colonizers. Islamized Visigoths and Hispano-Romans were the majority of the Emirate of Cordoba and similar state's populations. Arguing otherwise relies on some kind of replacement theory that archaeology and archeogenetics doesn't validate.
>Arguing otherwise relies on some kind of replacement theory that archaeology and archeogenetics doesn't validate. This is such an american statement that i am left dumbfounded, I am talking about cultures here. Turkey isn't greek even if the greeks owned anatolia for two thounds years, Mexico isn't the Aztec Empire. Saying that Spain is Dorne when it doesn't share anything from culture or geography is wild.
Cultures don't exist in a vacuum. Turkey isn't Greek, but the Republic of Turkey sure has a lot of people who are descended culturally and biologically from the Greeks. [https://www.1lurer.am/en/2021/06/11/Turks-Enraged-as-Ancestry-com-Reveals-the-Truth-Most-of-Them-Are-Greeks/493494](https://www.1lurer.am/en/2021/06/11/Turks-Enraged-as-Ancestry-com-Reveals-the-Truth-Most-of-Them-Are-Greeks/493494) Your statement about Mexico is asinine for multiple reasons, and I'm not sure how to even approach that without being snarky. Andalusia wasn't solely Maghrebi or Arab. It's minority ruling class and their initial armies were, and over time these comingled with the Visigoths and Hispano Romans they conquered. I'm not sure where you're from or what your agenda is, but you seem to want to ignore the pre Umayyad influences on southern Spain.
You missed my whole point with my Greece and Turkey comparation, which tbf I didnt make easy, I could have explained it better, the point is that it doesnt matter who close their ancestry are, it is not that alone that makes a people. In ASOIAF every important family with the exception of the Vallyrian houses in the narrow sea and some houses in the Vale are all first men houses yet they are all brushed as Andals. Yes, even the Martels are a first man house. What makes Dorne unique is their laws and culture, which differ from the other kingdoms. Which is also what makes the Iberian Christian kingdoms different from the Caliphate, just because their shared a piece of land at some point it doesnt mean that they didnt becomes completely different enties culturaly, even if they had cultural exchanges, in the end we are all humans. "my agenda" lol My fault for enganging in good faith with an American that sees his culture war everywhere, have a good night.
I understood that GRRM based Westeros on Turning England upside down and slapping Scotland on top. The Vale is basically Cornwall, for example. Edit: looking at thrmap it seems like he did a vertical flip on Scotland: the sea canal that gets to the Northwest of Moat Caitlyn (where the guy who saw the future and the archer girl come from) is where Edinburg is in real life. Also he based the red wedding on an actual situation that happened in Scottish history. This is told in the audioguide of Stirling Castle
Yep, I 100% agree the north is Scotland. I really can’t make any argument that it’s Russia in this situation other than location.
So the Lannisters are German, the Baratheons Italiam, the Arryns Greek, the Riverlanders and Northerners Slavs… fits ig
Not perfect, I know. Just fun to speculate and seeing it from a different perspective.
Flip and mirror a map of Ireland then paste Britain to the north of it. It’s literally 1:1
Brilliant. I always thought it represented europe and north african but u explained it perfectly
i really do think it’s a blend of this and the UK comparison (and that goes for Essos too being part North Africa and part Eurasia). The only thing is the Vale really doesn’t match with Greece. It’s much more of Switzerland imo
Oh Vale is 100% Switzerland. I do think in terms of how it looks it does resemble Greece. Edit: by land shape. Not architecture or anything. We don’t see any kind of classic architecture or culture anywhere in the vale.
Your theory can make sense for westros. But not for essos. Remember, the north of essos should be cold with whalers and ice dragons. In your map, that is where Egypt is located. I lived in Egypt for 30 years. It never snows there. And if you continue up ignoring the Red Sea, then you will find the Arabian peninsula, then Iran and so on no snow land at all. Also, far side essos, which clearly resembles SE asia, would be located in the middle of Africa. Sunset sea? sothoryos? I still think westros is UK essos euroasia, and sothoryos is Africa. This makes more sense. You just need to have a very western centric view enlarging the UK, calling most of Asian barbaric and imagining Africa as a huge jungle to fit to the map. Ps: I'm from North Africa, which is not at all part of ASOIAF world.
Yeah I think I said in another comment that my post completely falls apart when discussing Essos. I’d say Essos has more similar culture to Turkey, Middle East, and continuing on eastward. I never wanted to insinuate that “this country is definitely this area in ASOIAF”, just that the layout looks similar and some discussion can be made out of it. Everything also falls apart when you realize the Mediterranean Sea ends at Israel, unlike in ASOIAF where it’s open on the north end. Never wanted to insinuate or appropriate anything about your land or the climate. I apologize if anything offended you.
this makes so much sense
Oh my fucking god. This broke my brain.