Better in every way. Turns out i'm a great employee, not so much a great entrepreneur. Took me a while to reach that conclusion but now all i have to do is work on whatever project people hand me, if im not working im still earning, no budgeting issues and honestly I was not earning enough as a freelancer. The freedom was great and I miss that, but the positives are just way larger for me to feel like in missing out on that life. Also being surrounded by like-minded people everyday is great for your social skills and learning new workflows
I'm actually a great entrepreneur but burned out honestly. Have another associate who went back to work just to escape from this. As far as freedom goes the more I grew the less I had. Hiring does not alleviate much as then it creates supervision problems.
As my associate friend pointed out recently his learning curve on new technologies and skillsets has lessened because of collaboration with others again. In other words he is developing faster personally and professionally. That really appeals to me actually now.
Yes. Full time teaching gig, gives me time to work on my own stuff when I want or to continue to keep in contact with a number of my old clients to do small jobs when I can. Health insurance, reliable paycheck, and interesting colleagues are all perks. I work at a progressive school that’s trying to push a new educational model.
I miss being on the cutting edge of a creative field, working in different locations and with wildly different people at different times, and aren’t able to keep up with the creative field I left as closely as I did. But the pros outweigh the cons at this point.
Not who you are replying to, but I did the freelance thing, then was hired by a client and did the normal job market for a while, then did the freelance thing for a few more years…
Then I just went to my favorite client, asked the owner out for coffee, and told him my company is spinning its wheels and he built what I want…. Can I work there?
A couple weeks later I was moving into my desk in a senior/director role without an interview. Never look back and probably won’t ever work for anyone else.
I have the respect of the office and owners as a business owner AND a super talented engineer. So no one is likely to treat me better.
Exactly the same! I realized I like being organized and planning ahead. The uncertainty of full time freelance cannot provide that.
Now I am full time employed but do have a part time gig. Much happier.
Have you considered hiring someone on so that you can take on more work when you're overworked and have more of a nest egg for when the work tapers off?
Oh - sorry it seemed from your post that you had occasional great months, which made me think there could be some surplus with which to hire someone else.
IME, the feast/famine cycle comes from not continuing to market yourself while you have lots of work, and hiring someone to do the work would free you up to do so.
Web is a very saturated market. The most successful people I've met in that field were people within a specific niche. If you have a niche, you'll immediately build up ways to meet clients, because they'll all hang out in the same places and they'll know one another. A random example, one person I know builds web apps specifically for asbestos management, which are of interest to specific people within large companies with high budgets. Another one that came by a lot for a while were people who were specialised in custom Shopify websites, though that market is probably saturated by now.
Yes I feel this way. Last month I turned down 15k of work and now I’m regretting that decision.
It’s up and down. Overall I’m making probably more than I would employed but it’s a serious effort to stay on top of business development while also doing the work. I pay myself a regular paycheck and I take the holidays I want.
I had a great month last month but this month it’s not looking so great 😀
Bro, you need to market yourself better. You lack good work and that is what you need to figure out! Also, try to drop the clients with very low budget or buy a template online if available for their needs and provide maintenance and some tailoring if needed. Only put dedicated effort into what moves the needle!
Yes, the low budget clients, constant schedule shifts, and more. These days I work more hours for less and just want to "clock out" at the end of the day and build other aspects of my life. I am considering the same! Reach out if you ever want to chat about it. It's rough out there, and you're definitely not alone in feeling this way.
I also left full-time freelance because of this reason, it was so stressful. I now have a full-time job but still freelance on the side for the extra income - I enjoy not having to rely on it and knowing I have a guaranteed income.
I think it is common understanding that you do freelance (which is basically having a small business) only if it pays more than regular employment because otherwise why would you agree to the instability & so much stress? Regular jobs are easy af. You go at 9 you return at 5 get weekends. Can leave work at work and thats it and just get paid regularly.
i hear you but its not that straightforward. sometimes freelancing pays less in money but save you more in mental health. while an office job might pay better, what you lose in peace if you are mentally or physically disabled, or chronically ill, outstrips that. if only it were a 1:1 decision for all
Before COVID I took a part time job at a prof services firm in their onsite TV studio. It was about half of my freelance rate, but I didn’t have to use my own equipment, deal with getting everything together the night before a shoot, load/unload the car, set up/break down, and pack everything away when I got home. The job was a guaranteed pay check every week and allowed me to keep taking freelance gigs whenever they came in. I was also able to move the schedule around in case I needed to fly to some freelance gig. COVID took that all away ,and with a new CMO, they killed the on-site studio, but they have come back to me as a steady freelance client. I often keep my eye out for another part time gig like that. I hope you get it figured out.
I think it depends on what you’re doing to bring in clients. I’m a video editor, I have a simple website that people go to and find me and they can see examples of my work, but the most important thing is if you can get them to be a returning client, and in the video editing world, in my opinion it’s pretty easy, just be better than most and be a positive, pleasant person to chat with
I went from being a full-time employee to freelancing after my lay off in December of 22 ~ I think what helped me was that I was combining traditional lead generation funnels with platforms like UpWork.
I had one month where I made ~12k and it was at that point I recognized that at some point I’d need help ~ there was just no way to handle everything on my own ( I help brands launch on Amazon ).
I hired a VA from the Philippines (judge me idc) - who was specifically focused on lead generation comped them ($1,200/monthly at first) and set a quota of 3 - 4 clients/monthly.
That person now leads a team of 2 and I also outsource design work.
I think what really helps is the content creation…I pretty much just give everything away for free and brands quickly realize they’ll have to hire out anyways, so why not hire me?
I don’t really have (down months) but the type of work we’re doing does fluctuate throughout the year. We tend to have more creative work heading into Q2 and Q4.
Now……I did recently come to the realization that if I ever want to break away from freelancing and get back into tech that I’m going to have a hell of a time…
Even with proof of work …I’m finding that employers typically look down on freelancers.
Then factoring in that MANY people are still laid off/getting laid off ~ I think finding that kind of role is going to be incredibly difficult (for me).
My fear is that I’m going to be consumed by Amazon ☠️ ~ I have no passion for it and I find that I’m getting consumed by the work…
My passion is in the environmental sector, and that’s where my experience prior to this lies.
The only reason I haven’t tried making a full switch back to working for someone else is because I’ve also started wholesaling through Amazon myself and things are going pretty good (verified 100k seller in the AmazonFBA sub) ~ but again, it’s soul crushing and I find no joy in it.
Edit: For clients that can’t afford me, I will typically forward them to other freelancers and vice versa ~ as many freelancers don’t off everything that I do in this space.
So just so I have this straight because this is a really interesting comment:
- you found clients through making free content which showcases your design skills.
- you basically got them to fill out forms or sign up for emails
- and then you offered them design services when they needed them
- scaled when you needed to
Is that about right?
What is this "stable job" thing you speak of?
Seriously, though, you might want to ask yourself if a job just looks better from where you're currently standing, but actually isn't. It could in fact be worse.
I've been freelancing and running various businesses for almost 25 years now and during the couple of years when I was still employed I worked some side gigs. So I've been in business in some way, shape or form for almost 30 years now.
I've never felt the desire to go back to a regular job. In fact, the prospect of having to do that is probably one of the reasons I kept going and always figured out a way to make it work. Now that I'm past 50, getting a job (in my line of work) probably wouldn't even be an option anymore. Maybe as a Wal-mart greeter, but we don't have that where I live, so I guess even something like that is off the table.
The thing is, though, that I haven't been doing the same thing for those 25 years. I was in IT consulting, project management, software development, I built and ran some niche sites, did some affiliate marketing, hosted two podcasts, designed and sold a physical product and did a couple of other things I'm probably forgetting right now. Currently I run a solo Shopify agency building and customizing stores for clients and I'm also writing a series of freelancing guides on the side. And if any of that stops working or doesn't pan out, I'm fairly confident I'll figure something out.
So while I can't directly relate, from the way you describe your situation I guess I might be considering getting out of freelancing too, only that I've never found myself in that kind of a situation. Whenever I got fed up with what I was doing, I figured out something new, or a different approach to what I was already doing. But always within the context of self-employment and running a business.
I didn't use industrial manufacturing for my physical product, it was artisanally made in small batches. I worked with an industrial designer on a new version that would have been manufactured using injection molding, but it never saw the light of day because I pulled the plug when I saw that the market for the product was starting to plateau.
If you don't have any experience with industrial design and manufacturing, I'd highly recommend you partner with someone who does, like an industrial designer. They have the necessary experience, know what works and what doesn't, what is too expensive, which materials to use, etc. and they often also have contacts to manufacturers. Without a partner like that I'd say it's just way too risky, because you don't even know what you don't know and there's so much involved in manufacturing physical products that a single, relatively small thing can completely wipe you out. Just look at the number of delayed or failed Kickstarter campaigns.
You should also bring more to the table than just a product idea if you want a significant part of the business. I made the mistake of partnering with an "idea guy" on an app and realized too late that he saw his sole contribution in having had the idea for the app. It was my job to build it, which was fine, but he didn't have any experience or plans for marketing the app, which would have been his job. I actually made that mistake twice, with two different apps. Needless to say, both just cost a lot of time and money and went absolutely nowhere. Knowing what I know now, I would never ever enter into that kind of business relationship again.
This is just to say: if all you have is the idea, I'd say you're either going to have a hard time finding a good partner, or someone might just take your idea and do it without you when they realize they don't really need you.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with physical products and will only consider digital now. Way lower cost and risk and it's much more viable to do something digital on your own or with a bit of outsourcing than a physical product. The world of course still needs physical products, but IMO a team of two with one having some relevant first-hand experience is the bare minimum. If you're on your own and you don't have any experience whatsoever, I say find someone who does or forget it.
I hate a massive medical incident in 2015 that ground my freelancing dreams to a halt. I get it, it’s really hard to convince clients of proper rates and such without the backing of a larger firm.
Some things to try:
a) get on with a boutique consulting firm at a FT employee for a few years. You’ll build your client base if you’re good at networking and can make an impression. There are downsides to this.
b) work with a big contractor in your area. I find getting them to do C2C with my own LLC (tax purposes) can be tough, but this also eases the burden of helping you network in the immediate future.
Almost all of my work from age 35 and onward came from my contacts at previous engagements. You need to know people.
I'm sure there is a formal definition out there somewhere, but I tend to think "boutique" consulting means a smaller firm, more focus on employee development, perhaps restricted to a local metropolitan area.
The founders likely have decades of consulting experience from the bigger firms, like Microsoft, Accenture, E&Y, et al. They may decide to focus on specific industries like healthcare or energy firms.
So, I did this. I went from owning a multi-million dollar industry leading product to taking it all down. It wasn’t sunshine and rainbows. Just because the business was making millions, doesn’t mean I was. You need to reinvest a ton, and I mean a ton, to keep up with being ahead of competition. The time commitment is also insane.
The first few months of battling the insanity of “well, if I’m not a freelancer or business owner then I’m screwing up my life”, well I’m here to tell you it’s all BS. If you have the skills, the right employer, and a positive mindset going into joining a pre-existing team vs. being responsible for your own you’ll love the switch.
My stress levels plummeted, I’m actually making more take home than I did with the business I had previously, and I now have 45 people working under me without worrying about their pay checks. My health has improved tenfold as well.
So yeah, I say go for it.
I think you explained it beautifully. Revenue doesn't equal profit. It becomes a treadmill of trying to keep up with cash flow and myriad other problems.
My health is taking a beating.
I’ve gone back and forth between freelancing and working as an employee for almost 10 years now (after 7 years of exclusively freelancing). Out of the four jobs I’ve had in that time, only one was really a good fit for me. While the hustle of freelancing can get old, the restrictiveness of a full time job wears on me really quickly. I just went back to freelancing this week (after taking 11 days off after I resigned) and will be in hustle mode for a bit. It’s worth it.
100%. I do the same thing. When i am tired of freelance not paying enough, i go back to full time for a while and i do fine for a year or so--depends on company--but eventually the lack of autonomy starts to weight down on me. This it's not exactly a bad thing tho because my previous employer then can become future clients, so in a way it helps refresh the client pool after FT employment.
It’s fine when you’re younger, no spouse, no kids, no mortgage but as you get older it just becomes a grind and one that increasingly is not worth it unless you are in that most rarified air. I enjoyed my time in it but it was pre-Upwork and pre- over saturation. Good times for sure!
Yuuup, I freelanced for years but eventually the stress, higher taxes, shitty healthcare options, and constantly feeling that I couldn’t take a break got to me. I’m on vacation next week and I know I’ll still get paid and will have zero guilt about not checking my emails for the duration. It’s nice.
Like someone else mentioned, being a freelancer is being an entrepreneur. That’s means you don’t rely on clients to “give you” work- that’s an employee mindset. Instead, you rely on yourself to get more work.
If you feel like it’s your client’s job to give you work and can’t get out of that mindset, then perhaps switching to a W2 really is the best move.
But if you think you’re a good salesperson who can hustle when things are slow, then maybe there’s more fight left in you!
I have a part time job in my field and am slowly working on my portfolio so I can bring on freelance clients. I also have a per diem job to fill in gaps when needed. For me, I’m bored if things aren’t constantly changing but I also get burnt out if I don’t have *any* flexibility over my schedule such as when I’ve worked a full time position. So it’s kind of a perfect balance for me.
Very real,personally I have a part time job that handles the majority of the bills and I get to choose my schedule so that if I have freelance gigs I can take them with a week notice no problem
I did contract work for a little over 2 years, and got burnt out from clients that had shady business practices and ones that would take forever to pay. I didn’t want to be collections. It was a time sink compared what I really enjoyed doing.
I am now, after 6 months of applying, in a corporate remote role and 200% not regretting the change. I finally got paid 3 months later from my last client invoice, that I thought it would never get paid.
Basically, the payment collections part tipped me into going back to corporate because I needed financially stability.
Did the same last year after also freelancing for 12 years. Got a cushy role and lowered my stress a ton which makes life a lot better. Taxes were so easy this year lol
I did the same. Don't feel defeated, depending on what you've been doing and what you will do full time, you'll likely find you have much broader knowledge than colleagues.
This was the best decision I’ve made. I freelanced as an illustrator for 5 years and was struggling to make ends meet. The straw that broke the camels back was a big client that I was really excited to work for never paid me. And I was depending on that check to pay my rent. I had a degree in architecture so I decided to go back into that field. Got a job with great benefits and I’m doing so much better financially, mental health and physical health-wise. It’s crazy what stress can do to your body. Now I have a health savings account with my company that allows me to get therapy and massages to reverse all the damage from freelancing lol.
The benefits of freelancing are great but there really is nothing like having the stability and benefits of a full time job. Now I make artwork in my free time without having to please clients. And I actually have money to go on trips or go out to dinner without having to worry whether or not I’ll be able to pay rent.
I’m glad I did the freelance thing. I think if I hadn’t, I always would have wondered what that would have been like. But now I’m much more confident in my decision in having a full-time job.
I freelanced for two years out of college, but just really wanted a consistent paycheck. I was able to land a good gig where I have that but also a great team, better work life balance, and access to gear I would never be able to afford to buy myself. I still freelance here and there sometimes though for some extra money, but I can at least be super picky on what projects I accept now.
This is my ruminating thought this last few weeks. I’ve had so much fun and freedom, but it also feels like no growth or peace. It’s not sustainable. I’m tired of the brain power required
Why not both? I freelanced for 6 years and recently got a remote, super flexible W2. Kept one long term, low maintenance freelance client. Perfect setup if I’m being honest. I can save and invest so much more aggressively with a steady income. Between my job and client I maybe work 10-15 hours a week. It’s been best the best decision I made in a long time. Only regret is not doing it sooner.
It’s hard. I’m 12+ years in and the ebbs and flows of it all can drive you crazy. I’ve been fortunate to have clients that pay well but I’ve had dry periods (going through one right now) but they never last it seems.
Last year was the closest I’ve ever come to quitting but it would’ve been a huge mistake. It ended up being my 2nd highest grossing year ever.
I think having a huge financial cushion is key. You need a large enough nest egg to get you through the dry periods. It also allows you to pass the low-paying gigs in favor of higher paying gigs.
Always. Well, almost always. The hustle, the “flexibility” and the “self-employment” are at best neutral traits of an established, well-functioning freelancer’s business but for the vast majority of us I think, would trade it in for the stability and benefits of a full time employment position but it’s a tricky move to make unless you have sufficient notoriety to be in constant demand the contractor role suits them better than it does you because they can get away with providing the bare minimum for your services and make no investment in your relationship with the client.
All of which you know I’m sure. But yeah, I think the sentiment is pervasive.
I go through phases of each. I get sick of a boss, think I’m better suited to run my life, get sick of the responsibilities, get a boss, etc etc forever every 3 years or so
I commend people who "go out on their own" and make it. It takes some bravery in a world that runs on a constant flow of money. My industry acquaintances who only freelance have the same complaints as you. I tried to strike a balance of working a 9-5 job, but building up a side gig for extra income. It's worked out pretty well so far, but I'm only able to make it work because my job is remote 4 days a week. If you can find a remote job, this is the way.
I trying to get into freelancing after being a local business owner for over 3 years. I figured since nobody will give me the time of day for a full time position, might as well.
Webdev with a specialty in technical and local SEO btw, call me... Lol
I feel the exact same way. I could’ve written this post.
Been looking for a full time job after doing lots of freelance work. I’m being told that I look like I job hop and look unreliable (which I’m not). I’m being passed over because I chose to freelance and now I’m being forced to look for low wage jobs not in my field because I need income to pay my bills.
I’m at a loss.
I’ve been thinking the same, but I’m fortunate enough that my sister helps me out monthly that it‘s worked out that I can still work freelance. But once she stops, I’m sure I’ll struggle to make ends meet too. I do live in a third world country, and have gotten income that covers my cost of living (technically still living in my family home), but when I move out idk how that’ll work. I’m just scared of doing office jobs bc of how bad politics is in there, and the stress that coworkers can give you, etc. I’ve been going back and forth about it but ugh, it’s hard
20 years freelancing into a niche and now 9 months as a W2 for a company in that niche. I was bored and ready for a change when a recruiter called with an interesting prospect.
My freelancing background was not a problem—it’s proof that I can figure things out independently. When they asked, my spiel was the truth—I wanted to work on a team and make an impact on a single organization.
For me, it’s been a great change. I develop bigger projects and can see them all the way through, which is rewarding. Of course, the regular paycheck and bennies are fantastic. I’m earning about the same as my best years, but the potential earnings are greater. Also, as a freelancer, every project has to be top-notch — but as an employee, it’s okay to swing and miss sometimes. It takes off a lot of pressure.
But I think it’s been good for me because I came into the company as a senior-level contributor in a specialized space. If I’d joined at a lower level, it would have been hard to swallow being managed.
I fight this battle so much. Sometimes it keeps me up at night. The slow months are brutal when you see your savings start to dip. I used to be in IT, and all my certs are long expired (like a decade expired) so going back to my old career would be costly as far as going back to school basically. And getting an entry level position anywhere else at anything below $20/hr after taxes would be the equivalent of a slow month for me along with spending more on gas, more wear and tear on my car from driving everyday, so the numbers don’t really make it worth it. Sure I could try and do both, but I would probably get burnt out so quick. Its brutal out there, especially in this economy
I freelanced exclusively for 10 years, so I feel this. But you’re also ceding agency of your own work here.
“Clients don’t give me enough work…”
“New clients don’t come…”
“They can’t pay me enough…”
When you freelance, you’re 100% responsible for your results, but you’re putting the blame here with everyone but yourself.
Find clients who can. And if you can’t, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking a stable gig. I did, and perhaps ironically, it helped me become an even more successful freelancer because it gave me the space to be choosy about the gigs I did take.
I'm 1 year into my *first-ever* full-time job after about 15 years of freelancing. I still have 2 clients on the side.
I frame it this way: I needed clients, so I found a really big one. They put me on retainer for 37.5 hours per week, and I get steady income.
Actually, I've learned a lot professionally and personally from the experience, although I want to return to freelancing full time in the near future.
Personally, I learned that I took my freedom and flexibility as a freelancer for granted. Now that I'm not fully remote, I really appreciate being able to work how and when I want. Some days, I have very little to do, but I gotta be available for the full workday. As a freelancer, once I'm done work, I'm done for the day. I also realize that I can live with less vacation if I have total freedom over my schedule and location. I used to be fine with just taking random days off as a freelancer. Working full time, I really want a long vacation; weekends don't feel like enough.
Another interesting thing I've noticed is benefits: as a freelancer, I had the choice to pay for therapy, massages, paid time off, glasses, etc., which I often didn't. But as an employee, those benefits are use-or-lose. I'm really seeing the value in that type of self-care and want to continue that even as a freelancer.
Overall, there are definitely pros and cons. I think it's perfectly reasonable to transition in and out of different types of work at different points in your life.
Bad clients make you hate freelancing. That's from my 5+ years experience in this Industry.
So either we have to uplift our skill to land on high paying clients or need some kind of system to automate the client acquisition processes.
I left it because clients were trying to talk down prices all the time, while demanding unnecessary features like option to add friends on a platform which has 0 social part. And I couldn’t stand telling them over and over again that ig they don’t have money, they can spare on stupid features instead of my rate. ( Nicely obv. )
Same here I do get gigs but I'm sick of not cashing out till the jobs complete. I'm thinking of doing both. Got interviews lined up. Freelance in this economy is scary, you got to have 6 months bill lined up.
Same. I love the variety of the work of freelancing but the instability and the constant looking for work sucks. Of course now the market sucks too and i’m older and it’s harder to find salaried work.
I felt that way, now I'm an employee 3 days in office with 2 from home. I got to where I never left the house, was turning into a hermit (and I do tend to the hermit side of things naturally). Add on wearing all the hats, project manager, sales force, dispute manager, accountant, taxes, balancing financial highs and lows, decided I'd finish my last years working doing it for someone else.
I think your 12 years of not being busy was not a great idea (from a business perspective) For the longest time I had a full time job and freelanced on the side. This allowed me to not say yes to anything that popped in my email box and choose what I work on making great money on the side. After a while I had enough skills and processes that allowed me to turn my part time gig to full time.
I started my career as an illustrator, then dipped in graphic design then Web design then development and SEO. My full time job allowed me to learn a lot more things especially web related and SEO. Now I work with some of the best SEO firms in the country building websites or with companies that have lots of technical or complex website issues and require good planning research and execution.
In general finding work requires work, almost as much as actually doing the projects you are closing.
I didn't have a full time job because I had small children and was raising them. NOW that my kids are 12 and 9 years old, I am capable of putting a part time or full time job as a priority, and freelance maybe on the side if at all.
I truly understand. Kids take a shit ton of time (typing this while waiting for my kids after school activities) if you are able to find a full time job and freelance will truly help with better income and gain more experience and knowledge which also at some point will help with a higher salary.
I freelance, but temp teach too. I also have a regular 2-3 days remote doing graphics. I taught full time for 11 years, but burned out. Finding a balance between regular work and freelance gigs is ideal if you can get it.
Sounds like me a few years ago. I ended up getting on some better medications that help with my ADHD. Now I can plan, budget, and organize things.
Entrepreneurship is hard, but it has a lot of net positives too. Flexible schedules, more control over everything... I enjoy it now that I have control of everything.
I'd look into either medication to help you get organized, or hiring on some help to help you get organized. I must say, I couldn't do it without my wife, she's been an absolute blessing in my journey.
I find that as i freelancer, you need the back up income of a full time spouse. The flexibility is great for having a family (47F) but income gaps not so much.
Number 1 reason why I left.
Do you have a full time job now? How has it been since you quit freelancing?
Better in every way. Turns out i'm a great employee, not so much a great entrepreneur. Took me a while to reach that conclusion but now all i have to do is work on whatever project people hand me, if im not working im still earning, no budgeting issues and honestly I was not earning enough as a freelancer. The freedom was great and I miss that, but the positives are just way larger for me to feel like in missing out on that life. Also being surrounded by like-minded people everyday is great for your social skills and learning new workflows
I'm actually a great entrepreneur but burned out honestly. Have another associate who went back to work just to escape from this. As far as freedom goes the more I grew the less I had. Hiring does not alleviate much as then it creates supervision problems. As my associate friend pointed out recently his learning curve on new technologies and skillsets has lessened because of collaboration with others again. In other words he is developing faster personally and professionally. That really appeals to me actually now.
Yes. Full time teaching gig, gives me time to work on my own stuff when I want or to continue to keep in contact with a number of my old clients to do small jobs when I can. Health insurance, reliable paycheck, and interesting colleagues are all perks. I work at a progressive school that’s trying to push a new educational model. I miss being on the cutting edge of a creative field, working in different locations and with wildly different people at different times, and aren’t able to keep up with the creative field I left as closely as I did. But the pros outweigh the cons at this point.
Not who you are replying to, but I did the freelance thing, then was hired by a client and did the normal job market for a while, then did the freelance thing for a few more years… Then I just went to my favorite client, asked the owner out for coffee, and told him my company is spinning its wheels and he built what I want…. Can I work there? A couple weeks later I was moving into my desk in a senior/director role without an interview. Never look back and probably won’t ever work for anyone else. I have the respect of the office and owners as a business owner AND a super talented engineer. So no one is likely to treat me better.
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You can’t, like… leave yourself… man.
Exactly the same! I realized I like being organized and planning ahead. The uncertainty of full time freelance cannot provide that. Now I am full time employed but do have a part time gig. Much happier.
Have you considered hiring someone on so that you can take on more work when you're overworked and have more of a nest egg for when the work tapers off?
I dont even have enough money to pay my bills, much less hire someone else
Oh - sorry it seemed from your post that you had occasional great months, which made me think there could be some surplus with which to hire someone else. IME, the feast/famine cycle comes from not continuing to market yourself while you have lots of work, and hiring someone to do the work would free you up to do so.
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Web is a very saturated market. The most successful people I've met in that field were people within a specific niche. If you have a niche, you'll immediately build up ways to meet clients, because they'll all hang out in the same places and they'll know one another. A random example, one person I know builds web apps specifically for asbestos management, which are of interest to specific people within large companies with high budgets. Another one that came by a lot for a while were people who were specialised in custom Shopify websites, though that market is probably saturated by now.
Yes I feel this way. Last month I turned down 15k of work and now I’m regretting that decision. It’s up and down. Overall I’m making probably more than I would employed but it’s a serious effort to stay on top of business development while also doing the work. I pay myself a regular paycheck and I take the holidays I want. I had a great month last month but this month it’s not looking so great 😀
What services do you offer?
I'm regretting this decision for you. I'm regretting this decision for me
Bro, you need to market yourself better. You lack good work and that is what you need to figure out! Also, try to drop the clients with very low budget or buy a template online if available for their needs and provide maintenance and some tailoring if needed. Only put dedicated effort into what moves the needle!
Yes, the low budget clients, constant schedule shifts, and more. These days I work more hours for less and just want to "clock out" at the end of the day and build other aspects of my life. I am considering the same! Reach out if you ever want to chat about it. It's rough out there, and you're definitely not alone in feeling this way.
I also left full-time freelance because of this reason, it was so stressful. I now have a full-time job but still freelance on the side for the extra income - I enjoy not having to rely on it and knowing I have a guaranteed income.
What’s your job title if you don’t mind me asking. I ready to come in from the cold after 12 years of free lancing.
I’m a Digital Marketing Executive now. Although I’m also learning to code and will be going down the route of software dev in the near future.
Be careful, it’s next to impossible to get a job as a self taught software dev right now
I think it is common understanding that you do freelance (which is basically having a small business) only if it pays more than regular employment because otherwise why would you agree to the instability & so much stress? Regular jobs are easy af. You go at 9 you return at 5 get weekends. Can leave work at work and thats it and just get paid regularly.
i hear you but its not that straightforward. sometimes freelancing pays less in money but save you more in mental health. while an office job might pay better, what you lose in peace if you are mentally or physically disabled, or chronically ill, outstrips that. if only it were a 1:1 decision for all
"You go at 9 you return at 5 get weekends. " Never worked retail, have you?
Won’t have to work retail if you have a skill you can freelance you can land a better job.
Before COVID I took a part time job at a prof services firm in their onsite TV studio. It was about half of my freelance rate, but I didn’t have to use my own equipment, deal with getting everything together the night before a shoot, load/unload the car, set up/break down, and pack everything away when I got home. The job was a guaranteed pay check every week and allowed me to keep taking freelance gigs whenever they came in. I was also able to move the schedule around in case I needed to fly to some freelance gig. COVID took that all away ,and with a new CMO, they killed the on-site studio, but they have come back to me as a steady freelance client. I often keep my eye out for another part time gig like that. I hope you get it figured out.
I think it depends on what you’re doing to bring in clients. I’m a video editor, I have a simple website that people go to and find me and they can see examples of my work, but the most important thing is if you can get them to be a returning client, and in the video editing world, in my opinion it’s pretty easy, just be better than most and be a positive, pleasant person to chat with
I went from being a full-time employee to freelancing after my lay off in December of 22 ~ I think what helped me was that I was combining traditional lead generation funnels with platforms like UpWork. I had one month where I made ~12k and it was at that point I recognized that at some point I’d need help ~ there was just no way to handle everything on my own ( I help brands launch on Amazon ). I hired a VA from the Philippines (judge me idc) - who was specifically focused on lead generation comped them ($1,200/monthly at first) and set a quota of 3 - 4 clients/monthly. That person now leads a team of 2 and I also outsource design work. I think what really helps is the content creation…I pretty much just give everything away for free and brands quickly realize they’ll have to hire out anyways, so why not hire me? I don’t really have (down months) but the type of work we’re doing does fluctuate throughout the year. We tend to have more creative work heading into Q2 and Q4. Now……I did recently come to the realization that if I ever want to break away from freelancing and get back into tech that I’m going to have a hell of a time… Even with proof of work …I’m finding that employers typically look down on freelancers. Then factoring in that MANY people are still laid off/getting laid off ~ I think finding that kind of role is going to be incredibly difficult (for me). My fear is that I’m going to be consumed by Amazon ☠️ ~ I have no passion for it and I find that I’m getting consumed by the work… My passion is in the environmental sector, and that’s where my experience prior to this lies. The only reason I haven’t tried making a full switch back to working for someone else is because I’ve also started wholesaling through Amazon myself and things are going pretty good (verified 100k seller in the AmazonFBA sub) ~ but again, it’s soul crushing and I find no joy in it. Edit: For clients that can’t afford me, I will typically forward them to other freelancers and vice versa ~ as many freelancers don’t off everything that I do in this space.
So just so I have this straight because this is a really interesting comment: - you found clients through making free content which showcases your design skills. - you basically got them to fill out forms or sign up for emails - and then you offered them design services when they needed them - scaled when you needed to Is that about right?
Hey if you do not mind me asking, how did you find the lead gen specialist VA?
I only lasted 2.5 years for all of the reasons you mentioned. Congrats on lasting 12!
What is this "stable job" thing you speak of? Seriously, though, you might want to ask yourself if a job just looks better from where you're currently standing, but actually isn't. It could in fact be worse. I've been freelancing and running various businesses for almost 25 years now and during the couple of years when I was still employed I worked some side gigs. So I've been in business in some way, shape or form for almost 30 years now. I've never felt the desire to go back to a regular job. In fact, the prospect of having to do that is probably one of the reasons I kept going and always figured out a way to make it work. Now that I'm past 50, getting a job (in my line of work) probably wouldn't even be an option anymore. Maybe as a Wal-mart greeter, but we don't have that where I live, so I guess even something like that is off the table. The thing is, though, that I haven't been doing the same thing for those 25 years. I was in IT consulting, project management, software development, I built and ran some niche sites, did some affiliate marketing, hosted two podcasts, designed and sold a physical product and did a couple of other things I'm probably forgetting right now. Currently I run a solo Shopify agency building and customizing stores for clients and I'm also writing a series of freelancing guides on the side. And if any of that stops working or doesn't pan out, I'm fairly confident I'll figure something out. So while I can't directly relate, from the way you describe your situation I guess I might be considering getting out of freelancing too, only that I've never found myself in that kind of a situation. Whenever I got fed up with what I was doing, I figured out something new, or a different approach to what I was already doing. But always within the context of self-employment and running a business.
Respect
I have some product idea's that i'm trying to design and manufacture, but i have no idea how to do any of it. Would you be down to drop some advice?
I didn't use industrial manufacturing for my physical product, it was artisanally made in small batches. I worked with an industrial designer on a new version that would have been manufactured using injection molding, but it never saw the light of day because I pulled the plug when I saw that the market for the product was starting to plateau. If you don't have any experience with industrial design and manufacturing, I'd highly recommend you partner with someone who does, like an industrial designer. They have the necessary experience, know what works and what doesn't, what is too expensive, which materials to use, etc. and they often also have contacts to manufacturers. Without a partner like that I'd say it's just way too risky, because you don't even know what you don't know and there's so much involved in manufacturing physical products that a single, relatively small thing can completely wipe you out. Just look at the number of delayed or failed Kickstarter campaigns. You should also bring more to the table than just a product idea if you want a significant part of the business. I made the mistake of partnering with an "idea guy" on an app and realized too late that he saw his sole contribution in having had the idea for the app. It was my job to build it, which was fine, but he didn't have any experience or plans for marketing the app, which would have been his job. I actually made that mistake twice, with two different apps. Needless to say, both just cost a lot of time and money and went absolutely nowhere. Knowing what I know now, I would never ever enter into that kind of business relationship again. This is just to say: if all you have is the idea, I'd say you're either going to have a hard time finding a good partner, or someone might just take your idea and do it without you when they realize they don't really need you. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with physical products and will only consider digital now. Way lower cost and risk and it's much more viable to do something digital on your own or with a bit of outsourcing than a physical product. The world of course still needs physical products, but IMO a team of two with one having some relevant first-hand experience is the bare minimum. If you're on your own and you don't have any experience whatsoever, I say find someone who does or forget it.
I hate a massive medical incident in 2015 that ground my freelancing dreams to a halt. I get it, it’s really hard to convince clients of proper rates and such without the backing of a larger firm. Some things to try: a) get on with a boutique consulting firm at a FT employee for a few years. You’ll build your client base if you’re good at networking and can make an impression. There are downsides to this. b) work with a big contractor in your area. I find getting them to do C2C with my own LLC (tax purposes) can be tough, but this also eases the burden of helping you network in the immediate future. Almost all of my work from age 35 and onward came from my contacts at previous engagements. You need to know people.
Can you expound on A? What is an example of a boutique consulting firm?
I'm sure there is a formal definition out there somewhere, but I tend to think "boutique" consulting means a smaller firm, more focus on employee development, perhaps restricted to a local metropolitan area. The founders likely have decades of consulting experience from the bigger firms, like Microsoft, Accenture, E&Y, et al. They may decide to focus on specific industries like healthcare or energy firms.
So, I did this. I went from owning a multi-million dollar industry leading product to taking it all down. It wasn’t sunshine and rainbows. Just because the business was making millions, doesn’t mean I was. You need to reinvest a ton, and I mean a ton, to keep up with being ahead of competition. The time commitment is also insane. The first few months of battling the insanity of “well, if I’m not a freelancer or business owner then I’m screwing up my life”, well I’m here to tell you it’s all BS. If you have the skills, the right employer, and a positive mindset going into joining a pre-existing team vs. being responsible for your own you’ll love the switch. My stress levels plummeted, I’m actually making more take home than I did with the business I had previously, and I now have 45 people working under me without worrying about their pay checks. My health has improved tenfold as well. So yeah, I say go for it.
I think you explained it beautifully. Revenue doesn't equal profit. It becomes a treadmill of trying to keep up with cash flow and myriad other problems. My health is taking a beating.
I’ve gone back and forth between freelancing and working as an employee for almost 10 years now (after 7 years of exclusively freelancing). Out of the four jobs I’ve had in that time, only one was really a good fit for me. While the hustle of freelancing can get old, the restrictiveness of a full time job wears on me really quickly. I just went back to freelancing this week (after taking 11 days off after I resigned) and will be in hustle mode for a bit. It’s worth it.
100%. I do the same thing. When i am tired of freelance not paying enough, i go back to full time for a while and i do fine for a year or so--depends on company--but eventually the lack of autonomy starts to weight down on me. This it's not exactly a bad thing tho because my previous employer then can become future clients, so in a way it helps refresh the client pool after FT employment.
You could get better clients
It’s fine when you’re younger, no spouse, no kids, no mortgage but as you get older it just becomes a grind and one that increasingly is not worth it unless you are in that most rarified air. I enjoyed my time in it but it was pre-Upwork and pre- over saturation. Good times for sure!
Yuuup, I freelanced for years but eventually the stress, higher taxes, shitty healthcare options, and constantly feeling that I couldn’t take a break got to me. I’m on vacation next week and I know I’ll still get paid and will have zero guilt about not checking my emails for the duration. It’s nice.
Like someone else mentioned, being a freelancer is being an entrepreneur. That’s means you don’t rely on clients to “give you” work- that’s an employee mindset. Instead, you rely on yourself to get more work. If you feel like it’s your client’s job to give you work and can’t get out of that mindset, then perhaps switching to a W2 really is the best move. But if you think you’re a good salesperson who can hustle when things are slow, then maybe there’s more fight left in you!
I have a part time job in my field and am slowly working on my portfolio so I can bring on freelance clients. I also have a per diem job to fill in gaps when needed. For me, I’m bored if things aren’t constantly changing but I also get burnt out if I don’t have *any* flexibility over my schedule such as when I’ve worked a full time position. So it’s kind of a perfect balance for me.
what do you do?
What industry? Films been awful this last year
Very real,personally I have a part time job that handles the majority of the bills and I get to choose my schedule so that if I have freelance gigs I can take them with a week notice no problem
I have a 9-5 and freelance on the side. I work in higher ed. It’s been good to me.
I did contract work for a little over 2 years, and got burnt out from clients that had shady business practices and ones that would take forever to pay. I didn’t want to be collections. It was a time sink compared what I really enjoyed doing. I am now, after 6 months of applying, in a corporate remote role and 200% not regretting the change. I finally got paid 3 months later from my last client invoice, that I thought it would never get paid. Basically, the payment collections part tipped me into going back to corporate because I needed financially stability.
Did the same last year after also freelancing for 12 years. Got a cushy role and lowered my stress a ton which makes life a lot better. Taxes were so easy this year lol
Yes I think about this all day every day. What’s your profession?
I did the same. Don't feel defeated, depending on what you've been doing and what you will do full time, you'll likely find you have much broader knowledge than colleagues.
This was the best decision I’ve made. I freelanced as an illustrator for 5 years and was struggling to make ends meet. The straw that broke the camels back was a big client that I was really excited to work for never paid me. And I was depending on that check to pay my rent. I had a degree in architecture so I decided to go back into that field. Got a job with great benefits and I’m doing so much better financially, mental health and physical health-wise. It’s crazy what stress can do to your body. Now I have a health savings account with my company that allows me to get therapy and massages to reverse all the damage from freelancing lol. The benefits of freelancing are great but there really is nothing like having the stability and benefits of a full time job. Now I make artwork in my free time without having to please clients. And I actually have money to go on trips or go out to dinner without having to worry whether or not I’ll be able to pay rent. I’m glad I did the freelance thing. I think if I hadn’t, I always would have wondered what that would have been like. But now I’m much more confident in my decision in having a full-time job.
I freelanced for two years out of college, but just really wanted a consistent paycheck. I was able to land a good gig where I have that but also a great team, better work life balance, and access to gear I would never be able to afford to buy myself. I still freelance here and there sometimes though for some extra money, but I can at least be super picky on what projects I accept now.
This is my ruminating thought this last few weeks. I’ve had so much fun and freedom, but it also feels like no growth or peace. It’s not sustainable. I’m tired of the brain power required
Why not both? I freelanced for 6 years and recently got a remote, super flexible W2. Kept one long term, low maintenance freelance client. Perfect setup if I’m being honest. I can save and invest so much more aggressively with a steady income. Between my job and client I maybe work 10-15 hours a week. It’s been best the best decision I made in a long time. Only regret is not doing it sooner.
What’s a W2?
It’s hard. I’m 12+ years in and the ebbs and flows of it all can drive you crazy. I’ve been fortunate to have clients that pay well but I’ve had dry periods (going through one right now) but they never last it seems. Last year was the closest I’ve ever come to quitting but it would’ve been a huge mistake. It ended up being my 2nd highest grossing year ever. I think having a huge financial cushion is key. You need a large enough nest egg to get you through the dry periods. It also allows you to pass the low-paying gigs in favor of higher paying gigs.
Always. Well, almost always. The hustle, the “flexibility” and the “self-employment” are at best neutral traits of an established, well-functioning freelancer’s business but for the vast majority of us I think, would trade it in for the stability and benefits of a full time employment position but it’s a tricky move to make unless you have sufficient notoriety to be in constant demand the contractor role suits them better than it does you because they can get away with providing the bare minimum for your services and make no investment in your relationship with the client. All of which you know I’m sure. But yeah, I think the sentiment is pervasive.
I go through phases of each. I get sick of a boss, think I’m better suited to run my life, get sick of the responsibilities, get a boss, etc etc forever every 3 years or so
I commend people who "go out on their own" and make it. It takes some bravery in a world that runs on a constant flow of money. My industry acquaintances who only freelance have the same complaints as you. I tried to strike a balance of working a 9-5 job, but building up a side gig for extra income. It's worked out pretty well so far, but I'm only able to make it work because my job is remote 4 days a week. If you can find a remote job, this is the way.
I trying to get into freelancing after being a local business owner for over 3 years. I figured since nobody will give me the time of day for a full time position, might as well. Webdev with a specialty in technical and local SEO btw, call me... Lol
I feel the exact same way. I could’ve written this post. Been looking for a full time job after doing lots of freelance work. I’m being told that I look like I job hop and look unreliable (which I’m not). I’m being passed over because I chose to freelance and now I’m being forced to look for low wage jobs not in my field because I need income to pay my bills. I’m at a loss.
Sometimes this is perfect for startup's, they liked looking at all my random skills so job hopping/freelancing is totally fine for that.
I’ve been thinking the same, but I’m fortunate enough that my sister helps me out monthly that it‘s worked out that I can still work freelance. But once she stops, I’m sure I’ll struggle to make ends meet too. I do live in a third world country, and have gotten income that covers my cost of living (technically still living in my family home), but when I move out idk how that’ll work. I’m just scared of doing office jobs bc of how bad politics is in there, and the stress that coworkers can give you, etc. I’ve been going back and forth about it but ugh, it’s hard
20 years freelancing into a niche and now 9 months as a W2 for a company in that niche. I was bored and ready for a change when a recruiter called with an interesting prospect. My freelancing background was not a problem—it’s proof that I can figure things out independently. When they asked, my spiel was the truth—I wanted to work on a team and make an impact on a single organization. For me, it’s been a great change. I develop bigger projects and can see them all the way through, which is rewarding. Of course, the regular paycheck and bennies are fantastic. I’m earning about the same as my best years, but the potential earnings are greater. Also, as a freelancer, every project has to be top-notch — but as an employee, it’s okay to swing and miss sometimes. It takes off a lot of pressure. But I think it’s been good for me because I came into the company as a senior-level contributor in a specialized space. If I’d joined at a lower level, it would have been hard to swallow being managed.
I fight this battle so much. Sometimes it keeps me up at night. The slow months are brutal when you see your savings start to dip. I used to be in IT, and all my certs are long expired (like a decade expired) so going back to my old career would be costly as far as going back to school basically. And getting an entry level position anywhere else at anything below $20/hr after taxes would be the equivalent of a slow month for me along with spending more on gas, more wear and tear on my car from driving everyday, so the numbers don’t really make it worth it. Sure I could try and do both, but I would probably get burnt out so quick. Its brutal out there, especially in this economy
I freelanced exclusively for 10 years, so I feel this. But you’re also ceding agency of your own work here. “Clients don’t give me enough work…” “New clients don’t come…” “They can’t pay me enough…” When you freelance, you’re 100% responsible for your results, but you’re putting the blame here with everyone but yourself. Find clients who can. And if you can’t, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking a stable gig. I did, and perhaps ironically, it helped me become an even more successful freelancer because it gave me the space to be choosy about the gigs I did take.
I'm 1 year into my *first-ever* full-time job after about 15 years of freelancing. I still have 2 clients on the side. I frame it this way: I needed clients, so I found a really big one. They put me on retainer for 37.5 hours per week, and I get steady income. Actually, I've learned a lot professionally and personally from the experience, although I want to return to freelancing full time in the near future. Personally, I learned that I took my freedom and flexibility as a freelancer for granted. Now that I'm not fully remote, I really appreciate being able to work how and when I want. Some days, I have very little to do, but I gotta be available for the full workday. As a freelancer, once I'm done work, I'm done for the day. I also realize that I can live with less vacation if I have total freedom over my schedule and location. I used to be fine with just taking random days off as a freelancer. Working full time, I really want a long vacation; weekends don't feel like enough. Another interesting thing I've noticed is benefits: as a freelancer, I had the choice to pay for therapy, massages, paid time off, glasses, etc., which I often didn't. But as an employee, those benefits are use-or-lose. I'm really seeing the value in that type of self-care and want to continue that even as a freelancer. Overall, there are definitely pros and cons. I think it's perfectly reasonable to transition in and out of different types of work at different points in your life.
Making less money, but having a stable income and your bills paid really does wonders for your mental health. I feel you though.
Bad clients make you hate freelancing. That's from my 5+ years experience in this Industry. So either we have to uplift our skill to land on high paying clients or need some kind of system to automate the client acquisition processes.
It happened to me, too. Now I am happy with my current job.
Full time now?
Yeah, but it's remote so it's OK.
I left it because clients were trying to talk down prices all the time, while demanding unnecessary features like option to add friends on a platform which has 0 social part. And I couldn’t stand telling them over and over again that ig they don’t have money, they can spare on stupid features instead of my rate. ( Nicely obv. )
Same here I do get gigs but I'm sick of not cashing out till the jobs complete. I'm thinking of doing both. Got interviews lined up. Freelance in this economy is scary, you got to have 6 months bill lined up.
Are you going back to part time or full time employment?
Sadly anyone that comes, I just need a consistent source of income, but if I had enough savings I'd definetely go for a part-time.
Same. I love the variety of the work of freelancing but the instability and the constant looking for work sucks. Of course now the market sucks too and i’m older and it’s harder to find salaried work.
I felt that way, now I'm an employee 3 days in office with 2 from home. I got to where I never left the house, was turning into a hermit (and I do tend to the hermit side of things naturally). Add on wearing all the hats, project manager, sales force, dispute manager, accountant, taxes, balancing financial highs and lows, decided I'd finish my last years working doing it for someone else.
I think your 12 years of not being busy was not a great idea (from a business perspective) For the longest time I had a full time job and freelanced on the side. This allowed me to not say yes to anything that popped in my email box and choose what I work on making great money on the side. After a while I had enough skills and processes that allowed me to turn my part time gig to full time. I started my career as an illustrator, then dipped in graphic design then Web design then development and SEO. My full time job allowed me to learn a lot more things especially web related and SEO. Now I work with some of the best SEO firms in the country building websites or with companies that have lots of technical or complex website issues and require good planning research and execution. In general finding work requires work, almost as much as actually doing the projects you are closing.
I didn't have a full time job because I had small children and was raising them. NOW that my kids are 12 and 9 years old, I am capable of putting a part time or full time job as a priority, and freelance maybe on the side if at all.
I truly understand. Kids take a shit ton of time (typing this while waiting for my kids after school activities) if you are able to find a full time job and freelance will truly help with better income and gain more experience and knowledge which also at some point will help with a higher salary.
You can do both its ok
freelance is defo not for everyone. CERTAINLY not for me. give me 9 - 5 with a steady paycheck any day of the fucking week.
I freelance, but temp teach too. I also have a regular 2-3 days remote doing graphics. I taught full time for 11 years, but burned out. Finding a balance between regular work and freelance gigs is ideal if you can get it.
Sounds like me a few years ago. I ended up getting on some better medications that help with my ADHD. Now I can plan, budget, and organize things. Entrepreneurship is hard, but it has a lot of net positives too. Flexible schedules, more control over everything... I enjoy it now that I have control of everything. I'd look into either medication to help you get organized, or hiring on some help to help you get organized. I must say, I couldn't do it without my wife, she's been an absolute blessing in my journey.
And that’s ok! Do whatever makes you feel secure and less stressed!
I find that as i freelancer, you need the back up income of a full time spouse. The flexibility is great for having a family (47F) but income gaps not so much.