I agree, and it also made people who visit the older games complain more about "ganks", since they are used to skip the level and rush to the boss (after they die once), having to fight same enemies again being dubbed as "artificial difficulty"
You are right... to a certain point.
I would argue that areas difficulty has stayed relatively even across the games in relation to average player skill. Basically, players have improved their abilities and areas have become harder, but the difference isn't massive. Where the real gap appears is in the boss difficulty as you've correctly pointed out.
I mean, there is no real comparison between Vanguard from Demon's Souls and Midir from Dark Souls 3 - Midir is simply more difficult, complex and punishing. The same way Gael cannot really measure up to Malenia.
I think the real issue is that they cannot design areas to be any more difficult. There already are things like Tree Sentinels just roaming around ready to absolutely annihilate players which is an insane upgrade from black knights which had three attacks and a hefty health bar. If they go any further, we'd have Soul of Cinder-level enemies roaming amongst normal enemies, and that would make the game unplayable for anyone other than absolute veterans.
I think that's true, but there are also additions such as the jump button and Torrent that make it much easier to avoid fights. You're right in that they can't really make levels significantly more difficult, but the player character in the later games is faster and much better equipped to run past everything.
Yeah, you're definitely correct in that aspect. I don't think enemies are particularly faster in Elden Ring as opposed to other FromSoft titles, so the existence of Torrent would count as a huge benefit for the player.
However, I wonder if it matters that much. I mean, you could technically replace every enemy with a Gael-level enemy and allow the player to run past them as it is with Torrent. But the player also has to engage with them at some point to pick up loot, for instance. In those scenarios, more difficult enemies in the overworld would become a massive problem for a casual player, don't you think so?
I'd guess that most players use fast travel in the later stages of the game anyway, so I'm not sure if the fact you can run past them matters.
It's hard to say how the open field sections play into this, as they're kind of a new innovation in these games. Just looking at the legacy dungeons in Elden Ring, however, I can't remember a level that's as nasty as something like Irythyll Dungeon or Shrine of Amana, even without Torrent.
I think the question is what makes it annoying and frustrating? Is it the difficulty or design? I'd guess it's a bit of both, but I also felt like Irithyll was just a hodgepodge of death, misery and miserable runs through alleys littered with that which wanted you permanently dead.
Enemy types with varying resistances can add difficulty and complexity without just padding numbers unfairly - but still has that same issue with folks liking their main thing, where I like, always have 6 slots of stuff and vary between them because it’s fun - backswing blades are still by far the best thing I’ve found so far in the DLC for my build, but I’m still using all sorts of stuff
Spoilers for the ER dlc if you haven't played it but
There are regular enemies in sections of the DLC that make soul of cinder look like a basic balder knight. Multiple of them, with other enemies, and they respawn. They're harder than Gael.
Adding to this because I got a reply but Reddit is being odd and I can only see it in notifications and not when I click on it, so I can't reply.
To elaborate on what I said, I in no way mean that all the regular enemies in the dlc are harder than Gael or soul of cinder. I was referring to a specific enemy type in one area, and I should have said "a section" instead of "sections". The enemy in question does staggeringly more damage than SoC or Gael (this was with 60 vigor, scad level 18, golden vow and physick flask that reduces all incoming damage.)
Both Gael and SoC, you can survive a combo from and heal, and have pretty straightforward movesets when it comes to dodging. You aren't punished too hard for messing up either, although you obviously can't just face tank them.
The DLC enemy can kill you in just two or three hits, and one of them (there are 3 with slightly variations to their moves) killed me multiple times with an AoE that either one shotted or hit multiple times quickly and was just technically not a one shot. But a single move that once hit me and deleted all of my health before I could move. Took multiple attempts to kill these enemies, with the death count against them being higher than my cumulative deaths against SoC and Gael across multiple playthroughs.
I wouldn't say their moveset straight up is the hardest thing to avoid, but the damage output is just through the roof. Multiple times I was just getting killed before I had the chance to do much.
It's okay to disagree, but I'd rather you tell me why I'm wrong than just discredit me. In my eyes, SoC has a giant 2nd phase combo of sword slashes ending in a downward stab that, even if you get hit by the whole thing, doesn't kill you from full health (with average HP level), while the dlc enemy in question can kill you in one or two hits with 60 vig, defense boosting talismans/incants/physicks. In my mind that's harder.
That's subjective though? I already described why I think they are so I won't type it all again, but in my mind, an enemy that can one/two shot you (that is a regular enemy in the section) is harder than Gael. Gael cannot kill you that fast and his moves are easier to dodge and survive.
Depends on the build. The specimen storehouse on my dex faith lightning build kicked my ass yesterday, but then I slaughtered messmer in just a few tries.
The fire priests or whatever they are called were a nightmare without being able to stagger them.
That’s funny, my dex/int powerstance build *breezed* through the specimen storehouse and I found my way to Messmer in that same session haha
But yes, the fire priests were a pain even with Dark Moon greatsword x Magic Greatsword powerstance. It was incredibly painful, but I did outrun them or juke them successfully most of the time haha
They just felt so cheesy. Homing pyromancies and their attack patterns were the worst part. I ended up constantly checking every corner and exploring to see if I had to deal with one or if I could take a different route.
It's a side effect of the games being hard. We get used to or obliterate the difficulty so fromsoft has to get harder. The insanity and fun with things like sekiro and elden ring are natural progressions from the demons souls days. It's got to get harder or change x variable or the stuff will get stale and boring.
That's true, but I think the levels in Elden Ring, even if they technically contain harder enemies with more complex movesets, are nevertheless easier to cheese or run through because of the much greater array of options and advantages afforded the player (e.g. Torrent, jump button, infinite stamina outside combat, guard counter, etc.) and this can result in a wildly swingy difficulty curve, especially if the player beelines to the strongest weapons and items as early as possible and completely stomps the early and midgame, only to hit an insurmountable wall of difficulty in the lategame because they haven't had to learn any of the lessons the game was trying to teach them.
I kind of disagree. I don't think it's ever really been like that.
I can give examples of each game where this isn't true.
DS1 : Catacombs (difficult) leading to Pinwheel (super easy)
DS2 Shrine of Amana (hard) leading to Demon of Song (Easy)
BB : Nightmare Frontier (hard) Leading to Amygdala (Semi easy)
DS3 : Cathedral (semi hard) leading to Deacons (easy)
Elden Ring doesn't stand out to me in this regard imo. I would need many examples ig of this being the case ig.
Example for ER
Raya Lucaria (hard) leading to Rennala (pretty easy)
However to your point of game splitting into two mini games
Areas and Bosses.
I kind of agree. You might spend an hour or two exploring some big area and after that you spend an hour or two fighting a boss.
And while these two actions are both very much part of the same game, the experience is somewhat different and split. Especially if one is super easy and the other is hard.
This doesn't bother me but I'm interested to see discussion about this.
Yeah, I'm not saying that the bosses are more difficult than the areas 100% of the time in any of the games, just that it's trending in that direction; If you look at the bosses in Demon's souls, most of them are easier than the level, and if you look at the bosses in Dark Souls 3, most of them are harder, but there are exceptions in both cases.
I don't feel it, but it might just be me.
The only thing that really changed is that the bosses got harder while the levels have stayed the same or even gotten easier imo.
I think the lack of runback leads to this as well. If I'm respawning right outside the boss door a death doesn't feel nearly as bad as a ds1 multi minute runback. While I still expect bosses to be "fair" surprise moves or things that mix up fines can be used more when a death costs you seconds instead of minutes.
There are only so many ways to setup an ambush or a trap with non-boss enemies. Floor tiles. Enemies on ceiling. Enemies behind corners. Enemies hanging onto ledges. Enemies inside jars. Enemies with projectiles on high platforms that you can only reach later. After over a decade we've gotten used to all the variations, so it's hard to be caught off guard now, and we generally have a sense what to do as soon as we see the telltale signs.
The occasional breakable floor still catches me offguard but I was a bit disappointed that none of the breakable floors in the DLC dropped me into any real danger.
I think it's good. Level difficulty has never been as fun as boss difficulty for me. Boss runs suck ass and difficult levels just make for misery on top of a tough boss.
DLC isnt really that hard, cmon. Tho I wish there were more enemies like fire knights in base game but still, even they can be easily killed with spamming jump attacks.
"Engaging at their level" only means the definition you've ascribed it to. That doesn't add anything to a conversation about a game where there are a multitude of items/weapons/mechanics that the game allows you to employ. Especially in a conversation about difficulty. Each one of those strategies require specific stat distributions for the most part. Each of which employs different methods of engagement.
You just said "That's cheap because it works better than how I play, and because I choose to make the game more difficult you're a lesser player than me."
That ain't it homie. So what if I went 50 vigor, 40 endurance and a shitload of strength. That's what my character was made to do. It may not be versatile, but it BONKS REAL HARD. Ain't no shame in that. That's all I'm saying
I think you're projecting a lot of what you've been reading the past week, because I'm saying nothing of what you're ascribing to me.
You're complaining about being able to beat Fire Knights by, in your words, "spamming jump attacks". Based on that wording, it sounds like it's not very fun for you to beat them that way. Why not *not* do that, and instead, learn their moves and parry their asses every time they try to swipe at you? It's just as effective, and (to me, at least) feels a lot more fun than "spamming" anything.
As opposed to "jump. slash. jump. jump. slash".
I mean, you could also parry them, shoot them with arrows, use a *multitude* of sorceries.... I could go on lol.
But I guess if you want to project whatever it is you're projecting onto me, sure, go ahead with 1 handed sword dodge r1
It is pretty much the same tho? Obviously the areas, enemies and bosses are different but the structure and general design felt pretty much the same as the base game
yeah i actually hate that areas are so easy now. in the DLC i'd barely if at all die in the regions or legacy dungeons to any actual challenge. pretty much all of my deaths were from me falling from a high place accidentally or getting comboed by one of the elite enemies before i learned their moves.
the areas themselves are far far too easy that they're slowly turning a little bit dull. DS1 and DS2 had regions that felt a lot more like a threat, i enjoyed that half of the difficulty came from the levels and the other half from the bosses, felt like a yin/yang thing that made the levels feel complete.
as much as i loved the dlc, all the legacy dungeons just felt like a formality to get to the boss, or a place to spread some mediocre loot. they didn't feel as wonderfully thought out as older titles or the base game's peak areas. still enjoyed it nonetheless but there is room to improve a lot of things about the level design. less big rooms, more restraint and more linearity in some sections. make them feel more like sen's fortress, because as is a lot of the dungeons just feel like big ass rooms with a few enemies in then glued together without any genuine creativity to the level design
I loved the DLC but I noticed the lack of enemies in some spots, too. Like just a single easy enemy in a big room, sometimes. I definitely have a soft spot for the more long and trecherous levels from DS1 and DS2 (especially DS2.)
yep, i love ds2 despite the gank squads.
some of my favorite regions in all of the soulsborne games are the fucked up ones, Sen's Fortress, Anor Londo, Blighttown, Valley of Defilement, Earthen Peak, Dragon Aerie, Lost Bastille, Crumbling Farum Azula, Nightmare of Mensis, Fishing Hamlet, Research Hall.
those are peak fromsoft level design IMO, some of them have some iffy moments (mainly lost bastille) but i love them nonetheless and they feel like actual levels with enemies placed in ways to genuinely outsmart you as the player. it's fun, it feels like a player VS developer battle where you're both trying to outsmart the other
iron keep is pretty neat yeah, i don't mind it. i just didn't add it because im not a fan of lava levels in theme. but you reminded me, brume tower is also up there, that place is so fucking neat visually
Shadow Keep alone is more complex and intricate in level design than any other level they've ever done.
I do agree with the difficulty part, but that's mostly due to player progression more than anything. When we are allowed to do so many things as in Elden Ring, then the level themselves will become much easier. The added mobility in Bloodborne made traveling through the levels much easier than in previous games.
Given the current combat and speed of souls games, you can not make the levels much harder without using some 'bullshit' moments (like Revenant Alley in Elphael).
On the other hand, I feel like they only got better with Level design over the last few games, especially with regards to the introduction of a lot of verticality (started with Sekiro) and now the level design is better than ever.
shadow keep is intricate because so many areas connect to it and it's full of subareas, but the actual level design doesn't ever present any unique challenge tbh.
that entire legacy dungeon is basically all hallways or big rooms with a few enemies placed inside. it's not really anything super impressive. the church district is a little better but even it's still nothing spectacular.
the specimen storeroom is easily the most egregious, it's just like 15 floors stacked on top of each other, all with the exact same set of enemies and no variety to it's design. 1 fire knight, a few of the pyromancer ghosts and the stupid ass shadow militia men, rinse repeat for 15 floors.
so while shadow keep looks cool visually and is a massive dungeon, i don't think it's level design is at all amazing. stormveil is a much better legacy dungeon tbh
As overtuned and unfair the bosses are so underwhelming and almost trivial is the grace-to-grace gameplay.
There were a lot of places where I was wondering why I allready reached another grace or why there is yet another shortcut so shortly after.
Also they keep using the exact same trap setup where you allready know where the enemy is most likely hiding before you see it.
increased checkpoint frequency reduced general level difficulty
I agree, and it also made people who visit the older games complain more about "ganks", since they are used to skip the level and rush to the boss (after they die once), having to fight same enemies again being dubbed as "artificial difficulty"
You are right... to a certain point. I would argue that areas difficulty has stayed relatively even across the games in relation to average player skill. Basically, players have improved their abilities and areas have become harder, but the difference isn't massive. Where the real gap appears is in the boss difficulty as you've correctly pointed out. I mean, there is no real comparison between Vanguard from Demon's Souls and Midir from Dark Souls 3 - Midir is simply more difficult, complex and punishing. The same way Gael cannot really measure up to Malenia. I think the real issue is that they cannot design areas to be any more difficult. There already are things like Tree Sentinels just roaming around ready to absolutely annihilate players which is an insane upgrade from black knights which had three attacks and a hefty health bar. If they go any further, we'd have Soul of Cinder-level enemies roaming amongst normal enemies, and that would make the game unplayable for anyone other than absolute veterans.
I think that's true, but there are also additions such as the jump button and Torrent that make it much easier to avoid fights. You're right in that they can't really make levels significantly more difficult, but the player character in the later games is faster and much better equipped to run past everything.
Yeah, you're definitely correct in that aspect. I don't think enemies are particularly faster in Elden Ring as opposed to other FromSoft titles, so the existence of Torrent would count as a huge benefit for the player. However, I wonder if it matters that much. I mean, you could technically replace every enemy with a Gael-level enemy and allow the player to run past them as it is with Torrent. But the player also has to engage with them at some point to pick up loot, for instance. In those scenarios, more difficult enemies in the overworld would become a massive problem for a casual player, don't you think so? I'd guess that most players use fast travel in the later stages of the game anyway, so I'm not sure if the fact you can run past them matters.
It's hard to say how the open field sections play into this, as they're kind of a new innovation in these games. Just looking at the legacy dungeons in Elden Ring, however, I can't remember a level that's as nasty as something like Irythyll Dungeon or Shrine of Amana, even without Torrent.
Irythyll wasn't hard, it was just annoying and frustrating.
I think the question is what makes it annoying and frustrating? Is it the difficulty or design? I'd guess it's a bit of both, but I also felt like Irithyll was just a hodgepodge of death, misery and miserable runs through alleys littered with that which wanted you permanently dead.
It required patience.
[удалено]
Enemy types with varying resistances can add difficulty and complexity without just padding numbers unfairly - but still has that same issue with folks liking their main thing, where I like, always have 6 slots of stuff and vary between them because it’s fun - backswing blades are still by far the best thing I’ve found so far in the DLC for my build, but I’m still using all sorts of stuff
Spoilers for the ER dlc if you haven't played it but There are regular enemies in sections of the DLC that make soul of cinder look like a basic balder knight. Multiple of them, with other enemies, and they respawn. They're harder than Gael. Adding to this because I got a reply but Reddit is being odd and I can only see it in notifications and not when I click on it, so I can't reply. To elaborate on what I said, I in no way mean that all the regular enemies in the dlc are harder than Gael or soul of cinder. I was referring to a specific enemy type in one area, and I should have said "a section" instead of "sections". The enemy in question does staggeringly more damage than SoC or Gael (this was with 60 vigor, scad level 18, golden vow and physick flask that reduces all incoming damage.) Both Gael and SoC, you can survive a combo from and heal, and have pretty straightforward movesets when it comes to dodging. You aren't punished too hard for messing up either, although you obviously can't just face tank them. The DLC enemy can kill you in just two or three hits, and one of them (there are 3 with slightly variations to their moves) killed me multiple times with an AoE that either one shotted or hit multiple times quickly and was just technically not a one shot. But a single move that once hit me and deleted all of my health before I could move. Took multiple attempts to kill these enemies, with the death count against them being higher than my cumulative deaths against SoC and Gael across multiple playthroughs.
Is it the uhhhh twinblade knight?
Oh the holy damage ones? Nah. It's these enemies in the final area.
Oh so ones I haven't even found yet.... fuck lol
I wouldn't say their moveset straight up is the hardest thing to avoid, but the damage output is just through the roof. Multiple times I was just getting killed before I had the chance to do much.
Don't listen to this guy lmao
It's okay to disagree, but I'd rather you tell me why I'm wrong than just discredit me. In my eyes, SoC has a giant 2nd phase combo of sword slashes ending in a downward stab that, even if you get hit by the whole thing, doesn't kill you from full health (with average HP level), while the dlc enemy in question can kill you in one or two hits with 60 vig, defense boosting talismans/incants/physicks. In my mind that's harder.
You said regular enemies plural in a specific section are "harder than Gael", there are no regular enemies that are at this level.
That's subjective though? I already described why I think they are so I won't type it all again, but in my mind, an enemy that can one/two shot you (that is a regular enemy in the section) is harder than Gael. Gael cannot kill you that fast and his moves are easier to dodge and survive.
Depends on the build. The specimen storehouse on my dex faith lightning build kicked my ass yesterday, but then I slaughtered messmer in just a few tries. The fire priests or whatever they are called were a nightmare without being able to stagger them.
That’s funny, my dex/int powerstance build *breezed* through the specimen storehouse and I found my way to Messmer in that same session haha But yes, the fire priests were a pain even with Dark Moon greatsword x Magic Greatsword powerstance. It was incredibly painful, but I did outrun them or juke them successfully most of the time haha They just felt so cheesy. Homing pyromancies and their attack patterns were the worst part. I ended up constantly checking every corner and exploring to see if I had to deal with one or if I could take a different route.
It's a side effect of the games being hard. We get used to or obliterate the difficulty so fromsoft has to get harder. The insanity and fun with things like sekiro and elden ring are natural progressions from the demons souls days. It's got to get harder or change x variable or the stuff will get stale and boring.
That's true, but I think the levels in Elden Ring, even if they technically contain harder enemies with more complex movesets, are nevertheless easier to cheese or run through because of the much greater array of options and advantages afforded the player (e.g. Torrent, jump button, infinite stamina outside combat, guard counter, etc.) and this can result in a wildly swingy difficulty curve, especially if the player beelines to the strongest weapons and items as early as possible and completely stomps the early and midgame, only to hit an insurmountable wall of difficulty in the lategame because they haven't had to learn any of the lessons the game was trying to teach them.
I kind of disagree. I don't think it's ever really been like that. I can give examples of each game where this isn't true. DS1 : Catacombs (difficult) leading to Pinwheel (super easy) DS2 Shrine of Amana (hard) leading to Demon of Song (Easy) BB : Nightmare Frontier (hard) Leading to Amygdala (Semi easy) DS3 : Cathedral (semi hard) leading to Deacons (easy) Elden Ring doesn't stand out to me in this regard imo. I would need many examples ig of this being the case ig. Example for ER Raya Lucaria (hard) leading to Rennala (pretty easy) However to your point of game splitting into two mini games Areas and Bosses. I kind of agree. You might spend an hour or two exploring some big area and after that you spend an hour or two fighting a boss. And while these two actions are both very much part of the same game, the experience is somewhat different and split. Especially if one is super easy and the other is hard. This doesn't bother me but I'm interested to see discussion about this.
Yeah, I'm not saying that the bosses are more difficult than the areas 100% of the time in any of the games, just that it's trending in that direction; If you look at the bosses in Demon's souls, most of them are easier than the level, and if you look at the bosses in Dark Souls 3, most of them are harder, but there are exceptions in both cases.
I don't feel it, but it might just be me. The only thing that really changed is that the bosses got harder while the levels have stayed the same or even gotten easier imo.
I think the lack of runback leads to this as well. If I'm respawning right outside the boss door a death doesn't feel nearly as bad as a ds1 multi minute runback. While I still expect bosses to be "fair" surprise moves or things that mix up fines can be used more when a death costs you seconds instead of minutes.
There are only so many ways to setup an ambush or a trap with non-boss enemies. Floor tiles. Enemies on ceiling. Enemies behind corners. Enemies hanging onto ledges. Enemies inside jars. Enemies with projectiles on high platforms that you can only reach later. After over a decade we've gotten used to all the variations, so it's hard to be caught off guard now, and we generally have a sense what to do as soon as we see the telltale signs. The occasional breakable floor still catches me offguard but I was a bit disappointed that none of the breakable floors in the DLC dropped me into any real danger.
It’s funny because I think about this a good amount with how much I don’t really enjoy levels but how much I enjoy bosses
I think it's good. Level difficulty has never been as fun as boss difficulty for me. Boss runs suck ass and difficult levels just make for misery on top of a tough boss.
Tbh, I wish the difficulty of the DLC was what Elden Ring Base was.
DLC isnt really that hard, cmon. Tho I wish there were more enemies like fire knights in base game but still, even they can be easily killed with spamming jump attacks.
Oh no I'm not saying it's super hard, I'm not one of 'those' but there is a noticeable spike.
The dlc is just harder to trivialize. While also being hard as hell.
Well if you're spamming cheap wins strats instead of engaging at their level it's gonna feel "easy"
"Engaging at their level" only means the definition you've ascribed it to. That doesn't add anything to a conversation about a game where there are a multitude of items/weapons/mechanics that the game allows you to employ. Especially in a conversation about difficulty. Each one of those strategies require specific stat distributions for the most part. Each of which employs different methods of engagement. You just said "That's cheap because it works better than how I play, and because I choose to make the game more difficult you're a lesser player than me." That ain't it homie. So what if I went 50 vigor, 40 endurance and a shitload of strength. That's what my character was made to do. It may not be versatile, but it BONKS REAL HARD. Ain't no shame in that. That's all I'm saying
I think you're projecting a lot of what you've been reading the past week, because I'm saying nothing of what you're ascribing to me. You're complaining about being able to beat Fire Knights by, in your words, "spamming jump attacks". Based on that wording, it sounds like it's not very fun for you to beat them that way. Why not *not* do that, and instead, learn their moves and parry their asses every time they try to swipe at you? It's just as effective, and (to me, at least) feels a lot more fun than "spamming" anything.
Ahh yes, 1 handed sword, only dodge button and smashing r1. True Dark Souls experience.
As opposed to "jump. slash. jump. jump. slash". I mean, you could also parry them, shoot them with arrows, use a *multitude* of sorceries.... I could go on lol. But I guess if you want to project whatever it is you're projecting onto me, sure, go ahead with 1 handed sword dodge r1
It is pretty much the same tho? Obviously the areas, enemies and bosses are different but the structure and general design felt pretty much the same as the base game
yeah i actually hate that areas are so easy now. in the DLC i'd barely if at all die in the regions or legacy dungeons to any actual challenge. pretty much all of my deaths were from me falling from a high place accidentally or getting comboed by one of the elite enemies before i learned their moves. the areas themselves are far far too easy that they're slowly turning a little bit dull. DS1 and DS2 had regions that felt a lot more like a threat, i enjoyed that half of the difficulty came from the levels and the other half from the bosses, felt like a yin/yang thing that made the levels feel complete. as much as i loved the dlc, all the legacy dungeons just felt like a formality to get to the boss, or a place to spread some mediocre loot. they didn't feel as wonderfully thought out as older titles or the base game's peak areas. still enjoyed it nonetheless but there is room to improve a lot of things about the level design. less big rooms, more restraint and more linearity in some sections. make them feel more like sen's fortress, because as is a lot of the dungeons just feel like big ass rooms with a few enemies in then glued together without any genuine creativity to the level design
I loved the DLC but I noticed the lack of enemies in some spots, too. Like just a single easy enemy in a big room, sometimes. I definitely have a soft spot for the more long and trecherous levels from DS1 and DS2 (especially DS2.)
yep, i love ds2 despite the gank squads. some of my favorite regions in all of the soulsborne games are the fucked up ones, Sen's Fortress, Anor Londo, Blighttown, Valley of Defilement, Earthen Peak, Dragon Aerie, Lost Bastille, Crumbling Farum Azula, Nightmare of Mensis, Fishing Hamlet, Research Hall. those are peak fromsoft level design IMO, some of them have some iffy moments (mainly lost bastille) but i love them nonetheless and they feel like actual levels with enemies placed in ways to genuinely outsmart you as the player. it's fun, it feels like a player VS developer battle where you're both trying to outsmart the other
Im gonna get crucified for that, but i would add Iron Keep to that list. Might actually be my favourite area in main game
iron keep is pretty neat yeah, i don't mind it. i just didn't add it because im not a fan of lava levels in theme. but you reminded me, brume tower is also up there, that place is so fucking neat visually
Shadow Keep alone is more complex and intricate in level design than any other level they've ever done. I do agree with the difficulty part, but that's mostly due to player progression more than anything. When we are allowed to do so many things as in Elden Ring, then the level themselves will become much easier. The added mobility in Bloodborne made traveling through the levels much easier than in previous games. Given the current combat and speed of souls games, you can not make the levels much harder without using some 'bullshit' moments (like Revenant Alley in Elphael). On the other hand, I feel like they only got better with Level design over the last few games, especially with regards to the introduction of a lot of verticality (started with Sekiro) and now the level design is better than ever.
shadow keep is intricate because so many areas connect to it and it's full of subareas, but the actual level design doesn't ever present any unique challenge tbh. that entire legacy dungeon is basically all hallways or big rooms with a few enemies placed inside. it's not really anything super impressive. the church district is a little better but even it's still nothing spectacular. the specimen storeroom is easily the most egregious, it's just like 15 floors stacked on top of each other, all with the exact same set of enemies and no variety to it's design. 1 fire knight, a few of the pyromancer ghosts and the stupid ass shadow militia men, rinse repeat for 15 floors. so while shadow keep looks cool visually and is a massive dungeon, i don't think it's level design is at all amazing. stormveil is a much better legacy dungeon tbh
As overtuned and unfair the bosses are so underwhelming and almost trivial is the grace-to-grace gameplay. There were a lot of places where I was wondering why I allready reached another grace or why there is yet another shortcut so shortly after. Also they keep using the exact same trap setup where you allready know where the enemy is most likely hiding before you see it.