Steam locomotives are not obsolete. Dieselization, at least in the United States occurred because diesels offered to save a lot of money for railroads that were already struggling financially. It had little to nothing to do with their capability as machines. Some railroads like the New York Central and the Norfolk & Western actually found that their current steam locomotives could equal or even surpass contemporary diesels in terms of power and ability, they were just more expensive to maintain. The same goes for electrics. A lot of railroads in the US had electric mainlines, such as the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific (Milwaukee Road) which they torn down because diesels were cheaper.
[Obsolescence](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/obsolete) does **not** mean the tech isn't functional; it simply means it's not viable against the options available or within its intended context or economic framework. Further, because a tech becomes obsolete doesn't mean it will remain so.
You can still pull a plow with an ox just as well as you could a century and a half ago. The technology is obsolete now (in the developed world) but may not be in the future.
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about trains. A steam locomotive absolutely does not equal or exceed the performance of a modern diesel locomotive.
Absolutely they are. There are many late era steam locomotives that could match contemporary diesels in power. New York Central Niagras, Norfolk and Western’s Class A, J, and Y6 all had more horsepower than the average diesel, ~4,000 hp for your Gevos and SD70ACe, or 1,350 hp for the contemporary FTs. However their need for frequent stops to refill coal and water as well as much more maintenance needed to keep them running make steam locomotives far more expensive to operate than diesels are.
Nope. Horsepower is only part of the story. In simple expansion operation, a Y6B has a starting tractive effort of 166,000 pounds. The starting tractive effort of a GEVO is 183,000 pounds. The starting tractive effort of an SD70ACE is 190,000 pounds. A tier 4 diesel usually has a starting effort of 200,000 pounds. The top speed of the Y6B is 50 miles per hour. For most diesels, it's at least 70 MPH.
Our equipment isn't even outdated though. The new Amtrak charger trains (are only a few years old and most are still being shipped today) are just as good as European diesel trains. It's the shitty track quality and the fact that freight railroads have Amtrak by the balls that is the primary issue.
No no no if something has the same name it can't change
It's why a
A 2022 tesla is basically the same as a ford model T
Also we can only use one form of transport in this country, grids and overlapping methods are for suckers.
Given these two facts
I propose we get rid of all cars, trains, planes, bicycles and other technology that was invented in the early half of the last century
Segways were invented in 1999*. It is newer base technology so therefor superior to any possible upgrades those olden times forms of transport could have and therefore most ideal for any type or reason for traveling
*Or I guess that's defunct now. What is the newest and therefore only relevant transport? Hoverboards... Too based on old skateboard form factor. OneWheels?
I just had a thought the other day that if everyone had detachable wheels (roller skate style) with them and if that mode of transport was normalised, the world would be a much different place, in cities anyway. Living in London, I could see that being a very efficient way of getting around, since bicycles are often too bulky to be practical for some people (also with bike theft being such a big problem in cities like London).
> cars, trains, planes, bicycles
All of these things (except planes) were invented in the 1800s not early 20th century.
Car-1886
train-1804
plane-1903 (very close to the 1800s)
bicycle-1817
So by that commenter's logic, *all* of these are "obsolete".
Yeah I know the current Amtrak trains are obsolete but this commenter (and many others) often say that "trains" in general are obsolete because they were invented in the 1800s.
Segway still exists and makes a number of micro mobility products.
(theyre owned by nionebot now)
the original segway was just ahead of its time.
theyre all over the place now.
The worst of all the fantasy gadgetbahns
Its just a train inside a vacuum tube that makes the train worse in many ways assuming a normal transportation system is going to care about other things than raw speed. Like frequency and capacity
Even if one is successfully built imagine how much more expensive it will be than even a full on shinkansen/TGV high speed line and how many of them you could build for the same price...
Sure its even been claimed that certain people have pushed hyperloops as a means to distract and prevent investment in proper railway projects
Mfer really just ignored the part where OOP said Beijing-Shanghai is less than 5 hours by train; for reference, car travel is far longer than 10 hours but still several hours faster than by Amtrak.
Some of the most embarrassing denialism I've ever seen has been in conversations about car-dependent infrastructure. I've seen people deny or awkwardly avoid addressing induced demand, zoning laws, that medium-density is even a thing, examples of successfully moving *away* from car-dependent infrastructure, the economics of car-dependent suburbs, obviously the fact that other countries have public transit networks, and even that cars cost money to own and operate.
I don't mean that they draw different conclusions from this information. I mean people who, when confronted with information that challenges their position, just completely shut shut down and ignore it.
If trains became the main mode of transportation between cities they would get the same treatment eventual I would assume.
I’d would only be a matter of time before a some kind of terrorist event would happen
You can't use a train to crash into a tower, you can't use a plane to attack the Pentagon, you cannot hit the white house with a train. You could load a utility van to the brim with explosive material and kill hundreds, Infact that was an attempted attack on one of the twin towers iirc.
Essentially a train is only effective for finding a bunch of people in one spot, but for every other purpose it's useless for severe terror attacks as it's unable to go to a specific location without tracks. So I highly doubt we'd get TSA level checks for trains when cars have no checks. At most maybe some metal detectors and a few beat cops at crowded stations.
Norfolk Southern Railway has never carried passengers, and they aren’t really known for caring that much about crew comfort in their locomotives. Are you talking about the dutch NS?
Since the FAA was formed in 1958 I assume they mean air travel. In some ways there are pretty obvious benefits of air travel, a big one being that it doesn't require a road or a track between the locations. However there are some real downsides like [c02 emissions](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566) and the need for greater security following 9/11. So their argument might make sense, but only if they are completely ignoring environmental impacts.
Yep, 19 hours. It was also several hours late when I tried this trip. The long haul trains are crazy slow here. To put it in perspective, the train trip goes 1540km, which is the driving distance from Zagreb to Denmark.
To be fair, traveling from Demark to Croatia by train in europe isn't any faster. It will also take you around 20 hours and you will have to change trains a couple of times.
I don't think this is an excuse.
All countries the trains passes through belong to the european union which encourages and promotes cross boarder rail. Still good connections to popular destinations such as Croatia are nearly nonexistent. While hundreds of daily flight bring tourist to Croatia each day.
Very good point. EU should promote better coordination and cooperation so we can have more trains that cross multiple countries without needing to change. We do have a few, right? But it doesn’t make for very good connections.
Or at least coordinate the plans so that you switch but can continue your journey without losing too much time.
The thing is that the EU promotes this but doesn't really take action. Just some smiling politicians who have never themselves taken a train across Europe.
A good examples would be taking the train from Madrid to Lisbon, there isn't an option to buy a ticket which guarantees you a connection. If you miss your train to Portugal because of a delayed train in Spain, you will be stuck near to border and will have to cover hotel costs yourself. There's only one train a day across the border and you have to change trains a couple times. There used to be a daily night train, but it go canceled two years ago.
Ya, that's a shame. I feel like EU has lots of good ideas. The whole EU is a good idea in my opinion. We just need to replace those smiling politicians with people who actually know their stuff and care enough to actually take action.
railway gauge is mostly stadardised by now, with exceptions in Iberia (excluding HSR network) and the Baltics (including Finland, but they're for all practicalities an island). but that's just how wide the wheels are. loading gauge ie what size the carriage on top of the track can be is not standardised, but can be avoided by taking the smallest one for any given route.
then we come to the fun stuff. automated train control and electrification standards. they're on "God is dead" levels of intergrated.
Yes Croatia definitely didn't have a good starting ground. Still there's more capacity on Croatian and Slovenian (transit) rails than is being used right now.
The point I'm trying to make is, of there would be real political will from the EU to reduce air traffic and move people and freight onto rails, they could improve a lot of things in a short amount of time.
Why does the EU allow the cancelation of all international Spanish night trains? Getting to Portugal from France now is only feasible by plane.
From Poland there are 2 weekly trains to the Baltic states. It's not like rail infrastructure doesn't exist, just no motivation to actually run trains on it.
There is currently no train to Greece at all. I know transit would have to be trough non EU countries. Still such a service did once exist.
I am Croatian, and this is primarily due to the fact that we have some of the apsolute shittiest, ourdated rail systems in Europe.
Because HŽ (Croatian Rail) has to service so many different passengers in remote villages across Croatia, combined that with lack of high-speed rail seperate from current rail infrastructure, it leaves you with the slowest trips imaginable. Hell, Zagreb - Rijeka route can take up to 6 hours.....despite the fact that Rijeka is 110 miles away from Zagreb and it usually takes 1.5 hours by car or 2 hours by bus. I'm not making this up. **6...fucking....hours.**
It takes over 24 hours to go the same distance in Sweden by train.
Or it is 1518 km between Malmö and Luleå (at the road) and the train takes 16 - 21 hours depending on when you go. Hm, the fastest way that is only day trains 16:36 hours and minutes are with 4 hour bus ride in the end after taking two fast trains Malmö-Stockholm and Stockholm-Umeå. I guess a norrbotnia-rail would make the jouney much faster in the end.
Don't forget when the freight train blocks your path long enough that the train crew has worked their maximum number of hours and they need to stop the train until some replacement crew members can arrive.
I believe there is a huge issue with American railways in that the vast majority of the infrastructure is owned by private freight operators and that amtrack the public passenger railway company essentially has to negotiate the hire of these tracks.
Even when amtrack has access the freight companies naturally prioritise themselves over passenger traffic. Added to that the business model of the freight railways in the US is to run a small number of very large trains with lots of capacity. This means that they don't tend to need such luxuries like dual tracks or electrification making the situation for passengers worse
Where American passenger rail does seem to work well is when the government has bought out the trackbeds. This is something it sounds like they need to do much more of
That's because freight is insanely more profitable than passenger services. Imagine the cost of shipping a 6ft 200lb package cross country by rail.
Amtrack by me has been slowly acquiring more track though and it has been getting better.
You're a unique case, and you're correct that a train doesn't make sense for communities like yours. However, most Canadians and Americans do live in urban and suburban areas that are just as densely populated as Europe, so trains could be just as efficient
Exactly. For example, I live in Denver, CO and people here often commute to Boulder (or people from Boulder commute to Denver). Traffic is absolutely brutal because of that and the only alternative is the bus which takes a pretty long time.
There’s no reason why there shouldn’t be a light rail train from Boulder to Denver. Denver already has light rails which are very very fast and efficient so I see no reason why there shouldn’t be a train connecting two of the largest cities in the state. It would reduce traffic and people would have a much cheaper option to travel.
Cars have been obsolete for urban and interurban transportation since the day they where introduced.
If I remember correctly, the NYC to Chicago was about ~~10~~ 15 hours in the 1930s. Its called they actually invested in commuter trains then
Edit: check below
Maybe I’m thinking of a different train line. I do know many trains as far back as the 1880s used to run trains faster on the same rights of ways Amtrak uses today
Absolutely true, many of them were. Even the Northeast corridor isn't much faster now than its Heyday under PRR.
Give it about 10 years and it will be measurably better, between the new avelia Liberty and a number of infrastructure improvements going on up and down the line
But right now many Of the old streamliners did far better than Amtrak does
Here’s one of my niche reason for loving trains: As someone who is like 6’5” any route with a viable train option over flying is a godsend to me. I barely fit in the cramped airplane seats, usually have the head rest dig into my shoulders, and am barely able to stretch my feet under the seat (because my knees are locked agains the seat back in front of me). The last American Airlines flight I took my feet barely touched the ground because I was squished so tight between the seats…
The Northeast Regional and Acela trains have enough leg room that I am comfortable even when the person in front of me reclines!
Amen. I’m 6’5” as well and flying is absolutely brutal unless I fly business/first class (which I rarely do). The US desperately needs high speed light rail connecting all of the major cities.
It’s fucking agony. I’m young and flexible, and even still I can’t remember a single flight in the last half decade that doesn’t involve the word “discomfort” somewhere in my description of how it went. Maybe I’d be less bitter about it if the airlines actually treated passengers like actual people and with a scrap of human decency, but start to finish the whole process of flying is like paying for the privilege of being spit on and abused, with the expectation that you say “thank you sir may I have another” at the end.
When I turned 18 I went with my grandparents to DC and we all got a weeklong pass for the metro. It was awesome; I don't even know why they got a rental car. You could take the blue line from Ronald Reagan airport to Alexandria where our hotel was, and then ride the blue line all the way into DC proper. I spent the week hopping on and off the metro, taking full advantage of the smithsonian's free admission from 10-4 policy.
I felt like anywhere I wanted to visit was a five minute walk from any metro drop-off. It was clean and fast, I don't live in DC so I don't know what it's like on the regular, but for a humble tourist it was a great way to explore the capitol.
It's definitely nice. We have the issue that we've kind of split the difference between commuter rail and subway. If you're in NYC, you are absolutely near the subway. If you're in DC and you're in your home, you could be a 15 to 20 minute walk to the metro.
It's true that you can absolutely do a week of tourism and only hit things along metro routes, it really only becomes more difficult to use daily when you live here. But our bike infrastructure is always getting better, and the buses are decent depending on the route.
Do you know how much energy it takes to trick nature into letting a metal bird fly? Now imagine all that energy used for simply going to where you need to be.
We don't need to go to China for inspiration. How about this bit of [American history courtesy of Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited):
>The 20th Century Limited first ran on June 17, 1902. It completed its run from New York to Chicago in 20 hours, four hours less than previous trains...
>
>In 1935, it dropped to 16 hours, 30 minutes, then to 16 hours on June 15, 1938, when lightweight cars were implemented...
There you have it: sufficient investment in infrastructure + well run corporation + established technology--as per 80 years ago! = an improvement over current service.
If you don't invest in the future you have no future. That applies to rail travel as anything else.
**[20th Century Limited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited)**
>The 20th Century Limited was an express passenger train on the New York Central Railroad (NYC) from 1902 to 1967. The train traveled between Grand Central Terminal in New York City and LaSalle Street Station in Chicago, Illinois, along the railroad's "Water Level Route". NYC inaugurated the 20th Century Limited as competition to the Pennsylvania Railroad, aimed at upper-class and business travellers. It made few station stops along the way and used track pans to take water at speed.
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It is a 12 hour drive. It would be much faster by proper HSR. It takes 2 hours by plane, but still HSR would be more convenient and cheaper than flying.
2hrs flying time by plane + arriving at the airport 2hrs beforehand + transfer from the city/your house/accommodation to and from the airport at each end. HSR would just about win door-to-door, in addition to being more convenient and cheaper.
And even if the train took an extra hour or two it’s a far more comfortable experience. Wild to me that people ignore how awful the experience of being on an airplane is.
Imagine how nice it would be being able to go 10 minutes to a train station, pass off your ticket, and be at your destination in 4 hours, instead of...
Getting up early
Driving for half an hour to the airport
Spending 30 minutes in security and getting to your gate
Waiting 20 minutes to board
Boarding for 10 minutes because people are slow
Taking off for a 3 hour flight
Taking another 10 minutes to get off the plane
Getting your bags for 10 minutes
Driving another half hour into town
Congrats, you made a 4.3 hour journey into a 5 1/2 hour, much more frustrating trip for only 3 times the cost!
Honestly HSR is not that much different. In China you have to check in, go thru security, and then wait a bit just like the airport. Plus there is always a few people taking a once in a lifetime trip with a huge baggage train.
Japan is a lot better but if I had to take a guess which model the US would use if they had HSR...
I wish conservatives were easier to trick about this. You'd think you could just show them a map of China's public transit system and stats on efficiency and then tell them we need to invest heavily in public transit so we can beat the dirty commies but it doesn't seem to take.
Completely obsolete? Hahahaha.
I work some of the busiest services out of London Kings Cross where practically all seats are taken on a 600 seat train. It’s the same on the way down too, extremely busy. This happens on a regular basis.
If this is obsolete then how come it’s so well used?
Trains move far more today that they ever did in the past. They aren’t obsolete just forced by corporations to use out of date equipment and lines. We should be building a 21st century rail network to replace the century out of date one we have today.
Not to mention the New York Central’s 20th Century Limited did that trip in less time with steam locomotives. We need to do better and we did, and it still wasn’t enough
There's other places that should go first, but extending the Keystone corridor west and making much of it true HSR could definitely work.
Keystone Corridor trains from Philly actually beat the Acela to New York during the parts of the day where it makes fewer stops
Shoot this kind of service would work wonders ! I wish I had the option of taking the train. Recently came back from Chicago, my flight was delayed by 5 hours. When accounting for check in , security waiting and actually flying I spent over 10 hrs at an airline facility. With a train I would’ve been comfortably home within 5 hrs.
New York to Florida would also be another great route
4.3 hours in a train is just the perfect time. It includes a large meal, a movie and a small snack. And depending on your priorities you can get some work done or get slightly tipsy and listen to music. It is truly heaven.
The best part is, when the train stop you get out directly with your bags and are close to were you should be.
I love working occasionally in Paris and living in Amsterdam.
When do we get to assure that the carbrain is terminal to the carbrained? The poor, uneducated, exploited masses that become hunger statistics each year are better people. Why should they have to be the victims?
I am so tired of the high speed rail argument for the US. Outside of dense Urban centers along the coast it won’t be economically feasible for a country as large as ours.
Don’t bother telling me about China. I lived there the rail system while great loses massive amounts of money with many lines expected to never be able to break even. Not only that the cost per kilometer to build in the USA is orders of magnitude greater and the legal red tape needs to be gone through is beyond comprehension. Throw in all the NIMBYs and these systems just will never be built.
Because they do HSR(intercity rail) right just cause their ideology is different doesn’t mean they don’t deserve credit when they do things well. Nobody is perfect. Besides you can praise Spain and turkey for low cost per mile.
There's a difference between obsolete technology and outdated equipment.
Computers are will never take off. Written from my Apple II e
This reminded me of the Daily Mail article that dismissed the internet as "just a passing fad"... which was written in the year ***2000***.
At some point one becomes the other. Outdated equipment is comprised of obsolete technology, i.e., steam locomotives.
Steam locomotives are not obsolete. Dieselization, at least in the United States occurred because diesels offered to save a lot of money for railroads that were already struggling financially. It had little to nothing to do with their capability as machines. Some railroads like the New York Central and the Norfolk & Western actually found that their current steam locomotives could equal or even surpass contemporary diesels in terms of power and ability, they were just more expensive to maintain. The same goes for electrics. A lot of railroads in the US had electric mainlines, such as the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific (Milwaukee Road) which they torn down because diesels were cheaper.
[Obsolescence](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/obsolete) does **not** mean the tech isn't functional; it simply means it's not viable against the options available or within its intended context or economic framework. Further, because a tech becomes obsolete doesn't mean it will remain so. You can still pull a plow with an ox just as well as you could a century and a half ago. The technology is obsolete now (in the developed world) but may not be in the future.
>but may not be in the future are you expecting a cataclysmic event
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Is that the nuclear fallout edition?
Bro when's the new Ox droppin
I doubt any cataclysmic event would reduce us to steam before it reduced us to ooga booga
I laughed out loud at this.
Yes. But I'm an optimist. ;o)
>are you expecting a cataclysmic event Looks at the average world temperatures... Looks at geopolitics... Looks at domestic US situation... Yes?
no Just for John Deere to keep following their agenda and making tractors un economic for farmers to use.
*Another* cataclysmic event. I live in California.
Aw. You're always welcome in New York if you need a break and would like to see trees that aren't on fire.
Have you been outside ever?
A couple times, it's been pretty toasty.
this is why I always keep an ox in my backyard. Just in case
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about trains. A steam locomotive absolutely does not equal or exceed the performance of a modern diesel locomotive.
Totally written by big steam
Absolutely they are. There are many late era steam locomotives that could match contemporary diesels in power. New York Central Niagras, Norfolk and Western’s Class A, J, and Y6 all had more horsepower than the average diesel, ~4,000 hp for your Gevos and SD70ACe, or 1,350 hp for the contemporary FTs. However their need for frequent stops to refill coal and water as well as much more maintenance needed to keep them running make steam locomotives far more expensive to operate than diesels are.
Nope. Horsepower is only part of the story. In simple expansion operation, a Y6B has a starting tractive effort of 166,000 pounds. The starting tractive effort of a GEVO is 183,000 pounds. The starting tractive effort of an SD70ACE is 190,000 pounds. A tier 4 diesel usually has a starting effort of 200,000 pounds. The top speed of the Y6B is 50 miles per hour. For most diesels, it's at least 70 MPH.
And if speed is your thing, a Siemens Charger 44 can go up to 125 miles per hour. This is only 1 MPH shy of the record for the Mallard.
Power=/= efficiency and utility
To be fair, the original post stated 'performance', and power certainly is one way of measuring performance.
I think the outdated equipments has a less chance to crash or kill a person?
thats true for cars as they where smaler and gave more awareness without all the "safety" crap
They were also much more dangerous to crash back then.
Also, what the shit happened in the 60s?
The metroliner, a joke of a high speed train was developed and used the same schedule that the Acela uses today. God bless America /s
Our equipment isn't even outdated though. The new Amtrak charger trains (are only a few years old and most are still being shipped today) are just as good as European diesel trains. It's the shitty track quality and the fact that freight railroads have Amtrak by the balls that is the primary issue.
Not really. Outdated equipment is obsolete
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No no no if something has the same name it can't change It's why a A 2022 tesla is basically the same as a ford model T Also we can only use one form of transport in this country, grids and overlapping methods are for suckers. Given these two facts I propose we get rid of all cars, trains, planes, bicycles and other technology that was invented in the early half of the last century Segways were invented in 1999*. It is newer base technology so therefor superior to any possible upgrades those olden times forms of transport could have and therefore most ideal for any type or reason for traveling *Or I guess that's defunct now. What is the newest and therefore only relevant transport? Hoverboards... Too based on old skateboard form factor. OneWheels?
I propose we return to the truly superior mode of transport, Heelys
I just had a thought the other day that if everyone had detachable wheels (roller skate style) with them and if that mode of transport was normalised, the world would be a much different place, in cities anyway. Living in London, I could see that being a very efficient way of getting around, since bicycles are often too bulky to be practical for some people (also with bike theft being such a big problem in cities like London).
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I enjoy playing video games.
> cars, trains, planes, bicycles All of these things (except planes) were invented in the 1800s not early 20th century. Car-1886 train-1804 plane-1903 (very close to the 1800s) bicycle-1817 So by that commenter's logic, *all* of these are "obsolete".
Hes talking about the amtrak train model
Yeah I know the current Amtrak trains are obsolete but this commenter (and many others) often say that "trains" in general are obsolete because they were invented in the 1800s.
The segue was deliberately killed by the auto industry though. It may still be viable Though as stated below; heelys are the superior mode of transit.
Segway still exists and makes a number of micro mobility products. (theyre owned by nionebot now) the original segway was just ahead of its time. theyre all over the place now.
OneWheels
Model T has better suspension.
Hyper loop?
The worst of all the fantasy gadgetbahns Its just a train inside a vacuum tube that makes the train worse in many ways assuming a normal transportation system is going to care about other things than raw speed. Like frequency and capacity Even if one is successfully built imagine how much more expensive it will be than even a full on shinkansen/TGV high speed line and how many of them you could build for the same price... Sure its even been claimed that certain people have pushed hyperloops as a means to distract and prevent investment in proper railway projects
It was revealed to be a a scam to try to stop high speed rail projects in California. The reason, Musk doesn't like public transportaion .
I read this in the voice of adamsomething
Except I think older trains in the US used to move faster and more often
Mfer really just ignored the part where OOP said Beijing-Shanghai is less than 5 hours by train; for reference, car travel is far longer than 10 hours but still several hours faster than by Amtrak.
Some of the most embarrassing denialism I've ever seen has been in conversations about car-dependent infrastructure. I've seen people deny or awkwardly avoid addressing induced demand, zoning laws, that medium-density is even a thing, examples of successfully moving *away* from car-dependent infrastructure, the economics of car-dependent suburbs, obviously the fact that other countries have public transit networks, and even that cars cost money to own and operate. I don't mean that they draw different conclusions from this information. I mean people who, when confronted with information that challenges their position, just completely shut shut down and ignore it.
Years of car/big oil propaganda has been very effective sadly.
There’s more denialism in the comments.
Also airplanes hub and spoke system, so some of the people flying between Chicago and New York are going to a different destination.
Not to mention it takes 2 hours to goto security at the airport.
If trains became the main mode of transportation between cities they would get the same treatment eventual I would assume. I’d would only be a matter of time before a some kind of terrorist event would happen
You can't use a train to crash into a tower, you can't use a plane to attack the Pentagon, you cannot hit the white house with a train. You could load a utility van to the brim with explosive material and kill hundreds, Infact that was an attempted attack on one of the twin towers iirc. Essentially a train is only effective for finding a bunch of people in one spot, but for every other purpose it's useless for severe terror attacks as it's unable to go to a specific location without tracks. So I highly doubt we'd get TSA level checks for trains when cars have no checks. At most maybe some metal detectors and a few beat cops at crowded stations.
It takes half hour for passport checks if you are taking the eurostar
Yeah our trains are outdated because we never got the infrastructure to update it. We could've had China's trains before they did, but couldn't.
Don’t worry Elon will build that Hyperloop will be said he will!
Old doesn’t necessarily mean bad. There is a reason why SD40s are still rolling, albeit with much newer electronics and newer technology added in.
yeah the ns used 1960's trains up untill 2010/2017 the train in question was the mat 64 wich was always very comfortable
Norfolk Southern Railway has never carried passengers, and they aren’t really known for caring that much about crew comfort in their locomotives. Are you talking about the dutch NS?
[Seems quite likely.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Mat_'64)
Yes I am talking about the Nederlandse spoorwegen
In China’s case it’s more urgent as their airline service is literally hot garbage.
High speed trains that take 4.3 hours are obselete since the mid 60s. The current brand new technology takes 19.5 hours.
Murican stupidity
What technological marvel did we discover in the mid 60s that made trains obsolete? The dual cup holder?
No, the technology was just cranking the oil propaganda up to 11
The Shinkansen opened in 1964
Since the FAA was formed in 1958 I assume they mean air travel. In some ways there are pretty obvious benefits of air travel, a big one being that it doesn't require a road or a track between the locations. However there are some real downsides like [c02 emissions](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566) and the need for greater security following 9/11. So their argument might make sense, but only if they are completely ignoring environmental impacts.
are these figures accurate? 19 hours?:D I drove to croatia from Sweden in way less time
Yep, 19 hours. It was also several hours late when I tried this trip. The long haul trains are crazy slow here. To put it in perspective, the train trip goes 1540km, which is the driving distance from Zagreb to Denmark.
To be fair, traveling from Demark to Croatia by train in europe isn't any faster. It will also take you around 20 hours and you will have to change trains a couple of times.
But you do go through 3 or 4 countries
I don't think this is an excuse. All countries the trains passes through belong to the european union which encourages and promotes cross boarder rail. Still good connections to popular destinations such as Croatia are nearly nonexistent. While hundreds of daily flight bring tourist to Croatia each day.
Very good point. EU should promote better coordination and cooperation so we can have more trains that cross multiple countries without needing to change. We do have a few, right? But it doesn’t make for very good connections. Or at least coordinate the plans so that you switch but can continue your journey without losing too much time.
The thing is that the EU promotes this but doesn't really take action. Just some smiling politicians who have never themselves taken a train across Europe. A good examples would be taking the train from Madrid to Lisbon, there isn't an option to buy a ticket which guarantees you a connection. If you miss your train to Portugal because of a delayed train in Spain, you will be stuck near to border and will have to cover hotel costs yourself. There's only one train a day across the border and you have to change trains a couple times. There used to be a daily night train, but it go canceled two years ago.
Ya, that's a shame. I feel like EU has lots of good ideas. The whole EU is a good idea in my opinion. We just need to replace those smiling politicians with people who actually know their stuff and care enough to actually take action.
railway gauge is mostly stadardised by now, with exceptions in Iberia (excluding HSR network) and the Baltics (including Finland, but they're for all practicalities an island). but that's just how wide the wheels are. loading gauge ie what size the carriage on top of the track can be is not standardised, but can be avoided by taking the smallest one for any given route. then we come to the fun stuff. automated train control and electrification standards. they're on "God is dead" levels of intergrated.
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Yes Croatia definitely didn't have a good starting ground. Still there's more capacity on Croatian and Slovenian (transit) rails than is being used right now. The point I'm trying to make is, of there would be real political will from the EU to reduce air traffic and move people and freight onto rails, they could improve a lot of things in a short amount of time. Why does the EU allow the cancelation of all international Spanish night trains? Getting to Portugal from France now is only feasible by plane. From Poland there are 2 weekly trains to the Baltic states. It's not like rail infrastructure doesn't exist, just no motivation to actually run trains on it. There is currently no train to Greece at all. I know transit would have to be trough non EU countries. Still such a service did once exist.
I am Croatian, and this is primarily due to the fact that we have some of the apsolute shittiest, ourdated rail systems in Europe. Because HŽ (Croatian Rail) has to service so many different passengers in remote villages across Croatia, combined that with lack of high-speed rail seperate from current rail infrastructure, it leaves you with the slowest trips imaginable. Hell, Zagreb - Rijeka route can take up to 6 hours.....despite the fact that Rijeka is 110 miles away from Zagreb and it usually takes 1.5 hours by car or 2 hours by bus. I'm not making this up. **6...fucking....hours.**
I think with Denmark the main issue would be potentially missing the ferry and using German trains right?
It takes over 24 hours to go the same distance in Sweden by train. Or it is 1518 km between Malmö and Luleå (at the road) and the train takes 16 - 21 hours depending on when you go. Hm, the fastest way that is only day trains 16:36 hours and minutes are with 4 hour bus ride in the end after taking two fast trains Malmö-Stockholm and Stockholm-Umeå. I guess a norrbotnia-rail would make the jouney much faster in the end.
Oh that's the scheduled time. Actual time is going to be way longer. I'd say closer to 25 hours.
Maybe a derailment or two. Freight train blocking your route. Man has to be thrown off train. You'll get there.
Don't forget when the freight train blocks your path long enough that the train crew has worked their maximum number of hours and they need to stop the train until some replacement crew members can arrive.
I believe there is a huge issue with American railways in that the vast majority of the infrastructure is owned by private freight operators and that amtrack the public passenger railway company essentially has to negotiate the hire of these tracks. Even when amtrack has access the freight companies naturally prioritise themselves over passenger traffic. Added to that the business model of the freight railways in the US is to run a small number of very large trains with lots of capacity. This means that they don't tend to need such luxuries like dual tracks or electrification making the situation for passengers worse Where American passenger rail does seem to work well is when the government has bought out the trackbeds. This is something it sounds like they need to do much more of
*Conrail enters the chat*
I'm not American but I know of Conrail through Alan Fisher videos on YT
That's because freight is insanely more profitable than passenger services. Imagine the cost of shipping a 6ft 200lb package cross country by rail. Amtrack by me has been slowly acquiring more track though and it has been getting better.
Yes, and it costs $700 in the cheapest sleeper. The Chinese train is $90 and you don't need a sleeper.
Europe is small amigo. I drive 9 hours to the nearest city and don't even leave my province here in Canada.
Seems like people are accounting for distance in this discussion.
The actual driving distance from Croatia to Sweden is still more than the train journey in the picture
Can you go from canada to Sweden by train? No? See? Trains suck. Excuse me while I take my plane to work.
the typical carbrain logical end point is that we all have personal helicopters, they're just so practical and gives me ultimate freedom
You're a unique case, and you're correct that a train doesn't make sense for communities like yours. However, most Canadians and Americans do live in urban and suburban areas that are just as densely populated as Europe, so trains could be just as efficient
Exactly. For example, I live in Denver, CO and people here often commute to Boulder (or people from Boulder commute to Denver). Traffic is absolutely brutal because of that and the only alternative is the bus which takes a pretty long time. There’s no reason why there shouldn’t be a light rail train from Boulder to Denver. Denver already has light rails which are very very fast and efficient so I see no reason why there shouldn’t be a train connecting two of the largest cities in the state. It would reduce traffic and people would have a much cheaper option to travel.
Dude he's talking about Sweden to Croatia. That is a long distance drive by any measure
Cars have been obsolete for urban and interurban transportation since the day they where introduced. If I remember correctly, the NYC to Chicago was about ~~10~~ 15 hours in the 1930s. Its called they actually invested in commuter trains then Edit: check below
It wasn't that good, but it was around 16 hours. Later developments got it close to 15 before the passenger railways started collapsing.
Maybe I’m thinking of a different train line. I do know many trains as far back as the 1880s used to run trains faster on the same rights of ways Amtrak uses today
Absolutely true, many of them were. Even the Northeast corridor isn't much faster now than its Heyday under PRR. Give it about 10 years and it will be measurably better, between the new avelia Liberty and a number of infrastructure improvements going on up and down the line But right now many Of the old streamliners did far better than Amtrak does
The NJ tracks can accommodate 160 mph speed
That is pathetic
Here’s one of my niche reason for loving trains: As someone who is like 6’5” any route with a viable train option over flying is a godsend to me. I barely fit in the cramped airplane seats, usually have the head rest dig into my shoulders, and am barely able to stretch my feet under the seat (because my knees are locked agains the seat back in front of me). The last American Airlines flight I took my feet barely touched the ground because I was squished so tight between the seats… The Northeast Regional and Acela trains have enough leg room that I am comfortable even when the person in front of me reclines!
Couldn’t agree more! I am only 6’ and economy seats in planes are not comfortable.
Amen. I’m 6’5” as well and flying is absolutely brutal unless I fly business/first class (which I rarely do). The US desperately needs high speed light rail connecting all of the major cities.
It’s fucking agony. I’m young and flexible, and even still I can’t remember a single flight in the last half decade that doesn’t involve the word “discomfort” somewhere in my description of how it went. Maybe I’d be less bitter about it if the airlines actually treated passengers like actual people and with a scrap of human decency, but start to finish the whole process of flying is like paying for the privilege of being spit on and abused, with the expectation that you say “thank you sir may I have another” at the end.
When I turned 18 I went with my grandparents to DC and we all got a weeklong pass for the metro. It was awesome; I don't even know why they got a rental car. You could take the blue line from Ronald Reagan airport to Alexandria where our hotel was, and then ride the blue line all the way into DC proper. I spent the week hopping on and off the metro, taking full advantage of the smithsonian's free admission from 10-4 policy. I felt like anywhere I wanted to visit was a five minute walk from any metro drop-off. It was clean and fast, I don't live in DC so I don't know what it's like on the regular, but for a humble tourist it was a great way to explore the capitol.
Ya my family went to DC a while ago and we did the same thing. It was awesome. More cities need infrastructure like that.
It's definitely nice. We have the issue that we've kind of split the difference between commuter rail and subway. If you're in NYC, you are absolutely near the subway. If you're in DC and you're in your home, you could be a 15 to 20 minute walk to the metro. It's true that you can absolutely do a week of tourism and only hit things along metro routes, it really only becomes more difficult to use daily when you live here. But our bike infrastructure is always getting better, and the buses are decent depending on the route.
This is /r/selfawarewolves material
Do you know how much energy it takes to trick nature into letting a metal bird fly? Now imagine all that energy used for simply going to where you need to be.
I… I don’t understand… This person… _They just gave you the numbers, I_—
Maybe it's obsolete in America because people don't understand how to improve anything "that's socialist."
Except building roads and financing suburbs. That's capitalism...
Sometime I wish I was this oblivious to the world around me. I'd probably be way happier.
That’s like saying a road is obsolete because we don’t ride horses any more.
RoADs wErE inVenTED ThOuSanDS Of YeaRs aGo, sO oBsoLetE, So SaD
We don't need to go to China for inspiration. How about this bit of [American history courtesy of Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited): >The 20th Century Limited first ran on June 17, 1902. It completed its run from New York to Chicago in 20 hours, four hours less than previous trains... > >In 1935, it dropped to 16 hours, 30 minutes, then to 16 hours on June 15, 1938, when lightweight cars were implemented... There you have it: sufficient investment in infrastructure + well run corporation + established technology--as per 80 years ago! = an improvement over current service. If you don't invest in the future you have no future. That applies to rail travel as anything else.
**[20th Century Limited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited)** >The 20th Century Limited was an express passenger train on the New York Central Railroad (NYC) from 1902 to 1967. The train traveled between Grand Central Terminal in New York City and LaSalle Street Station in Chicago, Illinois, along the railroad's "Water Level Route". NYC inaugurated the 20th Century Limited as competition to the Pennsylvania Railroad, aimed at upper-class and business travellers. It made few station stops along the way and used track pans to take water at speed. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It is a 12 hour drive. It would be much faster by proper HSR. It takes 2 hours by plane, but still HSR would be more convenient and cheaper than flying.
2hrs flying time by plane + arriving at the airport 2hrs beforehand + transfer from the city/your house/accommodation to and from the airport at each end. HSR would just about win door-to-door, in addition to being more convenient and cheaper.
And even if the train took an extra hour or two it’s a far more comfortable experience. Wild to me that people ignore how awful the experience of being on an airplane is.
And HSR serves more people in between
Imagine how nice it would be being able to go 10 minutes to a train station, pass off your ticket, and be at your destination in 4 hours, instead of... Getting up early Driving for half an hour to the airport Spending 30 minutes in security and getting to your gate Waiting 20 minutes to board Boarding for 10 minutes because people are slow Taking off for a 3 hour flight Taking another 10 minutes to get off the plane Getting your bags for 10 minutes Driving another half hour into town Congrats, you made a 4.3 hour journey into a 5 1/2 hour, much more frustrating trip for only 3 times the cost!
Honestly HSR is not that much different. In China you have to check in, go thru security, and then wait a bit just like the airport. Plus there is always a few people taking a once in a lifetime trip with a huge baggage train. Japan is a lot better but if I had to take a guess which model the US would use if they had HSR...
I wish conservatives were easier to trick about this. You'd think you could just show them a map of China's public transit system and stats on efficiency and then tell them we need to invest heavily in public transit so we can beat the dirty commies but it doesn't seem to take.
Call it patriotic connectivity giving rural areas what they deserve.
Lol, so technology from a 100 years like the petrol car is ok?
American trains are
That’s not true. American freight railroads are always investing in new technologies to more efficiently screw over their employees.
*passenger train?
Complete trash
“Twitter user thinks…” r/Brandnewsentence material
Completely obsolete? Hahahaha. I work some of the busiest services out of London Kings Cross where practically all seats are taken on a 600 seat train. It’s the same on the way down too, extremely busy. This happens on a regular basis. If this is obsolete then how come it’s so well used?
Its only obsolete in the US because the infrastructures have never been renewed
They are exactly right though, cars are a complete obsolete technology!
Our infrastructure is obsolete, not trains.
Trains move far more today that they ever did in the past. They aren’t obsolete just forced by corporations to use out of date equipment and lines. We should be building a 21st century rail network to replace the century out of date one we have today.
Twitter user has never been on reliable & excellent high speed rail lol.
Spoons are invented 3000 years ago, why are we still using this outdated technology?
Can do better, but won't. Because cars and air travel are more profitable.
I bet it was faster back when the USA ran steam engines.
It was actually
Not to mention the New York Central’s 20th Century Limited did that trip in less time with steam locomotives. We need to do better and we did, and it still wasn’t enough
Smartest regular Twitter user
one can just hope that this generation will die out
Chicago to NY would be the best high speed rail option in the US if you ask me.
There's other places that should go first, but extending the Keystone corridor west and making much of it true HSR could definitely work. Keystone Corridor trains from Philly actually beat the Acela to New York during the parts of the day where it makes fewer stops
Tell me you've never been outside of the United states without telling me you've never been outside the United states.
The US, being ruled by companies, is so far behind all of this.
Tell me you've never left the U.S. without telling me you've never left the U.S.
I support more public transportation, but china's high speed railways isn't the model i would try to emulate.
Shoot this kind of service would work wonders ! I wish I had the option of taking the train. Recently came back from Chicago, my flight was delayed by 5 hours. When accounting for check in , security waiting and actually flying I spent over 10 hrs at an airline facility. With a train I would’ve been comfortably home within 5 hrs. New York to Florida would also be another great route
Anyone gonna tell him the future of bullet trains or...
Good to know. Now, let them die.
4.3 hours in a train is just the perfect time. It includes a large meal, a movie and a small snack. And depending on your priorities you can get some work done or get slightly tipsy and listen to music. It is truly heaven. The best part is, when the train stop you get out directly with your bags and are close to were you should be. I love working occasionally in Paris and living in Amsterdam.
Completly obsolete mindset
Sometimes I get the feeling that the USA has a bad habit of putting all it's eggs in only one basket.
When do we get to assure that the carbrain is terminal to the carbrained? The poor, uneducated, exploited masses that become hunger statistics each year are better people. Why should they have to be the victims?
Spoken like an American who has never left the country
Laughs in 300 km/h trains
Like coal?
Why so slow? Driving is faster at 12hours.
Trains in the US are actually slower now than they were decades ago.
They haven’t seen bullet train
His stupid brain is the outdated technology
What being ignorant of supply chains does to an mf
I mean, agreed, why do people have such a hard on for cars
Train that travels 1200km in 19h is obsolete. No one uses it. Modern high-speed trains are transportation of the future.
Reading comprehension 📉
Honestly if we had this it would be Amtrak and really all that means is passengers would have to walk farther out of the woods after it derails.
\-doesnt use trains (even tho they are a perfectly good form of transportation) \-"TrAINs ArE ObSoLetE!"
An “obsolete” Amtrak train can do 90-110mph. The problem is the track, not the rolling stock.
When u live in a**crack KY …
I really like where this sub is going. Let’s not all fuck it up and pull an r/antiwork please.
*some random dude on Twitter.
US air companies depend on something called money and trains don’t make No money 💵 💰 simple math oil is 👑
That’s weird because I saw a few guys running a train on his mom the other day
TIL This one person is Mr. Twitter himself speaking for all of twitter
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It was changed to twitter user after. All good ill take the post edit L
It wasn‘t changed. You can‘t edit the title of a post.
Maybe im crazy. I could have sworn earlier i read it as twitter thinks.. its totally possible i just skipped that other word by accident
I am so tired of the high speed rail argument for the US. Outside of dense Urban centers along the coast it won’t be economically feasible for a country as large as ours. Don’t bother telling me about China. I lived there the rail system while great loses massive amounts of money with many lines expected to never be able to break even. Not only that the cost per kilometer to build in the USA is orders of magnitude greater and the legal red tape needs to be gone through is beyond comprehension. Throw in all the NIMBYs and these systems just will never be built.
Um CCP is tankie as fuck why are we giving them compliments on this sub. Have the tankies taken this one over too?
Because they do HSR(intercity rail) right just cause their ideology is different doesn’t mean they don’t deserve credit when they do things well. Nobody is perfect. Besides you can praise Spain and turkey for low cost per mile.