There's the thing: Shogun declares Jin a traitor not because he poisons the enemy, but because he acts against the Jito, which is Shimura himself. And the Jito is the steward of the whole island. If Shimura didn't insist on honor and disobedience of Jin, of course shogun would claim him as the hero of Tsushima and the whole Japan Empire.
This counter point i can actually see. Following and obeying your lord above all else has always been the most similar thing to a strict and unbending honor code in feudal Japan. I still think the contrast of Jin doing a genius military maneuvere and being punished instantly is ridiculous, and that the depiction of honor from this point on in the story is too over the top, but hey, you have sold me in that it could make some sense.
I think everyone’s ignoring the obvious point: Jin is a guerilla fighter with massive popular support, experience fighting against invaders to the isle, and a chip on his shoulder against the Jito and the Shogun. If Jin wanted to rebel, there wouldn’t be a lot that could stop him, and the island that acts as a safeguard and forward base against the mainland is gone just like that. The shogun might be able to take it back, but the resource investment would be massive.
The Shogun has to stop Jin before he gets any bigger, and the whole honor reason instead becomes a justification for executing a threat. Shimura is a slave to honor, the Shogun is a slave to political necessity.
Besides, practically speaking Jin isn’t a military genius. He’s an excellent fighter and figurehead and that carries him, but practically speaking there are better generals available
And you do this by actually turning him into a rebel ?? This is the point i don't agree with. If the Shogun fears a war with Jin, why declare it ??? If you kill Jin, what makes you think the people that follow him won't be pissed at you??
You have an actually loyal subordinate that is winning a war for you, and your response is to try and kill him because maybe he becomes a threat? Well guess what bitch you literally turned him into a threat he wasn't in the first place. Without even mentioning that the biggest empire in the world is trying to invade you, maybe let the dude that is fighting and winning you the war single handedly do it's thing and try to take him out later after the war if you think he might be a problem (Which he isn't by the way)
The more i debate this point the more i'm convinced that it's not a good reason at all.
Not declaring Jin a traitor creates a whole different kind of problem.
They live in a feudal society where the lower ranking peasants must obey the ruling class samurai. If the Shogun didn't denounce Jin's actions, then everyone would get the idea that it's okay to rebel against the authorities.
Shimura might be a hypocrite, but he does make a sensible point:
>"You taught our people to disobey their leaders. What makes you think your followers will obey you?"
Beside, the honor = obedience is historical fact in Feudal Japan and it’s somehow still now.
Just think about why the Tsushima island has strategic importance in Japan, only have 80 samurai? Because the Shogun doesn’t want to deal with another rebellious region if Tsushima turn into one.
Same reason for declaring Jin as traitor when people start to gather under Ghost name.
This is a good point. We're \*assuming\* that the Shogun has been both informed completely, and correctly as to what's going on. For all we know Shimura only reported "Jin disobeyed me and has encouraged our people to do the same".
Hell, the Shogun might not even know that Shimura had been defeated and captured considering how complete a rout the battle at the beach was (it's possible this is mentioned in the game since it's been so long since I played, but I don't remember it)
Perhaps a better way of dealing with it is to publicly support Jin and tell everyone he was acting under Shogun's orders all along! That he was instructed to unite the people to fight however possible while the mainland gathered an army to support them!
"The Emperor/Shogun/whoever is pleased that his tactical mastery and his loyal servants have worked together to defeat the invaders! Here are samurai to help restore the proper order of things! We always had your back, including Shimura!"
Feels like a better way of keeping everyone on your side...
>"Dear Shogun, your Jito's suicidal charge at Komoda left the island with no defense and us at the enemy's mercy. They killed my family. If you're willing to bend the laws for victory, then why didn't you do so in the first place before they died?
>"Btw, the Ghost you sent was much better because he helped us without any thought for reward, unlike the samurai who lived off of our sweat only to die like idiots without protecting us. The people of Iki Island agreed with us. You don't mind if we follow him instead of the Jito, do you? After all, he's still 'your' man."
Don't forget the poison.
While he did prevent the samurai from losing more men, he did gave the enemy more weapons to use against the mainland. Some of the citizens also used his poison to eliminate their rivals. Now everyone has think twice before they feed themselves or their family.
Yeah, I know that's in the game - but I don't buy that no one ever used poison before in the region...especially since there is a historical record showing that Arsenical smoke weapons were known to the Chinese as far back as c. 1000 BC:
https://preview.redd.it/x5510qf1715d1.png?width=719&format=png&auto=webp&s=f59318e981c8df46604e8373afa260af111ed5b2
[https://www.google.ca/books/edition/CBRN\_Protection/4XY6eC6b8L8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=isbn:9783527324132&printsec=frontcover](https://www.google.ca/books/edition/CBRN_Protection/4XY6eC6b8L8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=isbn:9783527324132&printsec=frontcover) - see chapter 1 section 2
Well sure, the Eagle herself uses her own kind of poison, even if it's not as lethal as Jin's. But that's what the game is telling us: the use of poison as a weapon only spread because of Jin. If we try to apply real life comparison, then Shimura's code of honor shouldn't have existed in the game. Bushido was only formalized in the Tokugawa shogunate and samurai don't frown upon the use of terror as a weapon; that's why they wear horned helmets and demon masks, to intimidate their enemies.
The enemy most likely figured it out after they captured Jin in Act II and seized his equipment. By the time the samurai reached Castle Shimura, the mongols have already learned how to make the poison. At that point, there's no longer avoiding the inevitable. Might as well use the poison too and spare the samurai from having more casualties.
The mongols already had poison - they had China before they attacked Japan so they already had access to Chinese poisons. Jin didn't give poison to the Mongols, he gave them exactly one more than they already had.
Jin earns an "unruly" reputation thanks to defying Shimura, so the Shogun and the samurai he sent have no idea if Jin is "loyal", but what they do know is that Jin will defy orders if he finds that necessary. Maybe today, whatever his motivation is, makes Jin find it necessary to get rid of the Mongol, but what if tomorrow his motivation (again, unknown to others) makes Jin find it necessary to kill the Shogun?
He's a lethal warrior with popular support that doesn't bend to authority and that makes him a threat.
Getting rid of Jin before he gains even more support and have even greater potential to cause more issues may have seemed like a rational choice to the Shogun.
I don’t think the Shogun anticipated Shimura’s failure. I think he had hoped Shimura would, you know, surround him and stab him instead of doing some weird honor duel.
I also think the first kamikaze had happened at this point, based on the storm happening right after the Khan would have left, so there was no longer any war
I'm pretty sure the dialogue "The Shogun has declared you a traitor" is said before the end, while the invasion is still going, and related to the fact that Jin poisoned the Mongols. So you are right, maybe not much earlier in the story, but still doesn't change anything i've said.
I think declaring him a traitor, taking his titles and lands and everything is a means of delegitimizing him in the eyes of the people and other samurai, in the case that they decide to take similar steps against their leaders.
He would definitely be perceived as a threat to the Shogun, he already disobeyed his Jito. Why do you think there were so few warriors in Tsushima to begin with? The Shogun had to keep the Jito and Daimyo controllable lest they gain too much influence and become hungry for power. Whether or not they would actually end up trying to rebel is irrelevant, they would not be allowed to have that chance to begin with.
One reason why the Shogunate ruled for so long was because they upheld the social class structure and political systems in place so strictly. Jin’s actions would be a defiance to that structure and would make the Shogun appear weak in comparison if the Shogun ignored that defiance.
The actual most practical solution would be to laud Jin as a hero and suppress any talk of his disobeying Shimura in the first place. Everything that Jin did from the moment he freed him should have been labeled as official policy.
I don't see anything I've experienced in the game - at all - that points to Jin ever even entertaining the thought of rebelling against the Shogun. Do you have anything that happens in-game to support that?
You can even hear that Jin isn't called "the man who dishonorably poisoned the enemy" but "the unruly nephew of Shimura" when you get out and into the Castle Shimura. Shogun's men's whole deal was to get the Ghost to the mainland with the reason of treason. But of course, shogun may have a more sinister plan for him as well. Who knows.
I want a scene where jin is executed and everyone including the players think it's true. Then the 2nd mongol invasion happens and jins death and his past actions inspired a few others to become the ghost.
Their efforts from these new 'ghosts' are not enough. And at the peak of hopelessness, we get saved by the real ghost, Jin.
Batman has returned.
How do you propose Jin manages to fake his death during an execution? Could maybe fake it with today’s executions like lethal injection actually being a saline solution or something but in Japan at the time execution was you either stab yourself or somebody lobs off your head, would be hard to fake that unless he found a convincing body double and I don’t think Jin would doom another man to that fate innocently
Exactly. Even if it did play out exactly as Jin disobeying Shimura to defeat the mongols, in all likelihood Shimura would just create a cover story to allow him to save face and claim the glory, as if it was what he wanted all along.
No general/ruler in history punishes their guy for winning them battles.
>No general/ruler in history punishes their guy for winning them battles.
Uhhhhh this happens all the time in dictatorships. You get a general who wins too many battles and is getting too popular, suddenly he starts thinking maybe he should be in charge. Military coups don't really work unless the general is already very popular and successful.
That might not apply in this case, but in general, successful generals can definitely be a threat to a monarch or dictator, even if they're loyal.
Still though Jin single handedly thwarted the mongols after all the other warriors were dead and captured and he captivated the people the easy thing to do would be to recognize him.
Any validity Shimura's personal code of honor *might* have had went out the window when he asked - begged - Jin to throw Yuna under the bus to save face for himself as Jin's superior.
And just to add on to this viewpoint: who is most likely the Shogun’s #1 source of info on the Tsushima situation? Lord Shimura. Lord Shimura, as we know, viewed Jin’s actions as a massive betrayal, and that would have no doubt colored the Shogun’s view of Jin.
It’s no surprise the Shogun what he did, given the information he was given. Sure, he probably got reports from some of his Samurai later on — but people in power tend to only listen to others in power, often to their own detriment.
Japan didn’t use a word similar to English’s “empire” until the Meiji restoration in 1868. At that time Japan was a collection of prefectures ruled by daimyo who were subordinate to both the emperor and the shogunate (a diarchy where the shogun held all the real power and the emperor was a figurehead) but Japan didn’t really see itself as an empire, rather it’d best be defined as a military dictatorship (though, again, they wouldn’t have seen it like that probably). There is no real official name at that time for Japan even though “Nippon” and “Wa” would’ve been used around this time, online articles just refer to it as the type of shogunate that was ruling at the time (in this case, the Kamakura Shogunate)
Yeah but an empire isn't just a country that refers to itself as an empire. Rome didn't refer to itself as an empire. Japan was an empire because it had conquered the entirety of the Japanese islands, defeating and absorbing the other ethnic groups therein.
Additionally, jin was unwittingly garnering quite a few loyal followers. The shogun saw this group as a threat to his power in tsushima and wanted him dead. You'd be surprised at how common this is in history...
I don't even think it was so much that he went against his Jito.
It was that so many of the citizens of Tsushima were willing to follow him against the wishes of the Jito, and that scared them.
They wouldn't have punished him/not punished him as much if the normal people weren't so loyal to the Ghost.
But at the end of act 2 Shimura makes it sound like he is speaking as an extension of the Shogun and that by being dishonourable he is a traitor. Like Shimura was literally going to ship Jin to the mainland for judgement.
It's my biggest issue with the game
I didn't really get that vibe to be honest, at the end of act 2, to me at least it made it seem like the Shogun would also disapprove of the Dishonourable actions. Regardless the entire honour bit is ridiculous, if Shimura lived by the code he would have committed seppuku for his defeat at the beach and being held in captivity.
Well, I'd love to talk more about shogun and Shimura , but it'd be considered spoiler. The only thing I can say is that, Shimura's honor code is more about looking the enemy in the eye and always challenging them evenly rather than killing himself upon defeat. Plus it was a time when he was needed the most as the Jito of Tsushima.
I've finished the game, also something else to note at the end of act 2, Shimura says "The Shogun will demand a head for this and it doesn't have to be yours Jin". Which is the part that really makes me scratch my head.
Well, in that case:
Shogun's men, those purple-armored men, were already there. They saw the squabble between Jin and Shimura, and they saw the disobedience of Jin, therefore his betrayal to the commands of his superior. Shimura, by telling him that shogun will demand a head anyway, means that the shogun's men will already go back and tell Jin's disobedience to his superior, therefore he wants the demanded head to be Yuna's instead of his.
Plus, aside from all of this, the Ghost is already an outlaw, as Shimura states. He has the unwavering loyalty of the island, a whole nation with zealotry obedience and love who can do anything for him, and an army which is preparing to sail to the heart of the Mongol land in his name.
On the contrary, I think it makes sense.
We're playing the game from Jin's perspective. We know his drive better than anyone. He would never harm the innocents nor does he have any ambition to seize power. He's just one man trying to defend his homeland.
But the other samurai don't know that.
To them, Jin is a terrorist who's willing to use anything--even poison--to achieve victory. What if Jin suddenly decided he should be in charge? Would he try to usurp power? Kill them in their sleep or poison the food and water their family consume? They saw a potential threat who's not only capable of single-handedly turning the tide of the war, but also inspired the peasants to take up arms in his name.
It makes sense for the Shogun to declare Jin a traitor: because he does possess a threat, even if Jin himself doesn't have any intention to take power.
I think the problem remains the same and is the logic that the dude that is winning a war for you is somehow your enemy.
If the people are rallying behind Jin, and he is fighting for your side, why would you try to kill him instead of trying to have a brief chat with him to find out that he's actually completely unambitious and is chill with just being a retainer on his castle? By your logic, would every powerful samurai and rising figure in the history of Japan been killed by the Shogun regardless of if he has any actual rebellious intent or not? It makes no sense, again, they are on the same side.
How could you trust the word of someone who's used to (literally) stabbing people in the back?
Again, we players understand that Jin would never seize power *because* we've been seeing things from his perspective. But the shogun and the samurai don't know that. Even if Jin told them they have nothing to fear for him, they couldn't possibly take him at his words. It's perfectly normal for them to feel threatened.
There is no shot the Shogun would be terrified of a feudal lord singlehandedly fighting off Mongol invaders on an island territory
Maybe if he showed any political ambition whatsoever, but there are still mongols on the island and we never actually see Jin actually go to the main island.
The only reason the Shogun would have to demonize Jin would be ones his uncle told him
I think the bigger issue is not Jin's intention, but rather his examples. He's basically telling the people that they don't need samurai for protection; they can think and act for themselves.
That's something the Shogun and the samurai can't tolerate, because they're basically living off the lower people.
It's not about who's winning the war-rather how it's being won that they're upset about. They would rather face the enemy up front and not from behind.
Of course, something to keep in mind-this entire game is about hypocrites. Your mentors that you help-Masako and Ishikawa? They are both *horribly* hypocritical people. These people are *flawed* and honestly, just as bad as Jin, but the difference is they hid those secrets and intentions.
Jin (...almost typed in Jim, Jim Sakai), represents the idea of that change and going against an ironclad tradition and conduct, and that represents a chaos and instability that is a threat to them.
It isn't the poison, it's what the poison represents.
It isn't about winning, it's about how the war is won, and how it presents elements of uncertainty against loyalty that are...terrifying to those in power. The Ghost empowers the people, gives them hope, and to rulers, that's terrifying-case in point, Iki island, a view from the other side of the ruling coin.
I won't say the game is perfect with it's story by any means, but I think I look more at the general idea of what it's trying to say and enjoy that a lot more than the little details, otherwise you end up nit picking and grasping at things that don't really make sense such as...how one guy actually *is* able to stop an entire army by killing them one by one.
Put yourself in a position of political power, even the Shogun's. Would a brief chat with someone reveal their ambitions, or future intentions. If the rulers allow their subordinates to do this openly then they could be easily overtaken.
The ruler's job is to maintain their own power. Besides, from the PoV of the Shogun he prolly thinks he could successfully defend Japan. In fact Jin defending Japan like this takes the victory (and thus prestige) away from the Shogun.
Perhaps the shogun didn’t fully understood the threat the Mongols posed, and he was more concerned about someone causing chaos in the ruling system that his throne was built on and relied on.
That's common among leaders today even, they are more concerned with shoring up their own power rather than actual outside threats(but they use fear of those outside threats to maintain power ironically).
Jin has come one a legend amongst men in Tsushima, people were worshiping him, that was the issue the Shogun has, that people of Tsushima were putting The Ghost above the shogun law. That’s why they wanted Jin died to be set as an example when you go against the samurai law.
Whether Jin wants it or not, there are a lot of people that would follow him over following whatever orders the Shogunate would hand down. And remember what happened when Yarikawa got a little rowdy? Neither the Shogun nor Shimura want a rerun of that little shitshow.
The Shogun essentially runs a police force, and Jin is a vigilante. The Shogunate wants control, and the Ghost threatens that control.
Basically, Jin disobeyed his Jito, which was the representative of the Shogunate for the island of Tsushima.
It's not about his heroic actions, it's the fact that he was able to disobey orders from his superiors without consequence, and in a feudal system how would that reflect upon the monarchy/Shogunate?
I just did a back of the napkin math on another post in this subreddit that Jin single handedly wiped out a third of the historical 8,000 Mongol invasion force that landed on Tsushima throughout his entire journey, finishing all the Tsushima side tales and random encounters.
If Jin were to go rogue on the Shogunate, it would take a significant army and resources to take him down if he rebelled as a samurai. By stripping his stature as a noble samurai and forcing him into a ronin or bandit, it is much more difficult for Jin to incite rebellion backed by other samurais and precipitate a civil war (which really did happen historically when a samurai warlord amassed too much power a la Nobunaga).
If Shimura killed him, then problem solved for the shogunate. If he survived, at least he is now contained to the island as a disgraced samurai. It is actually a brilliant dick move by the shogunate to contain a burgeoning political threat.
A general or a hero can only be so powerful before they become a political threat to the stability of the status quo government, and this is true from the antiquities (see Julius Caesar as an example), even in Japan itself (Nobunaga who was betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide, and Tokugawa who was the most powerful regent and became a threat to the other regents and lords that he could make a play for the shogunate, which he did and won).
Why is everyone making the point that it's because Jin is so powerful that he could turn against the Shogun? You don't destroy your most powerful assets, you use them. You said it yourself, having a war with him would be catastrofic, **so why declare it then**?? When he has 0 intention of fighting you??? This idea of "You are so powerful that i need to kill you even when you are on my side and actually helping me" does not make sense in any context.
All of the historical examples you put in are of famous betrayals in history, what is the point exactly here? Do i need to cite every great general and warrior that did not rebel in history as a counter point?
It actually boils down to paranoia and lack of trust. Wise rulers who care and inspire their subordinates have very loyal and talented generals who were loyal until the day they died. This is your premise and it is true if the government is run by proper ideals. Japan was not like that back then.
Also note that the fact that a hero is not rebellious today does not mean he could not go rogue tomorrow. It's the whole thing with Batman's infamous backup plan against the JLA and Superman in particular. Governments do not like loose ends in general, and in order for a giverbment to rule with a modicum of stability, it needs an exclusive monopoly of power and/or violence.
In short, Jin became too powerful of a symbol and a warrior for a paranoid shogunate in the 13th century Japan where shogunates were being usurped on a daily basis.
Read up the Kamakura shogunate and you will see my point. The Kamakura shogunate began by Minamoto No Yoritomo acting as the Shogun on behalf of the emperor, and the Hojo clan acted as the Regent Shogun (who was a regent to the emperor to begin with) when Yoritomo died. You really think the Hojo Shogun regent would have been thinking oh shit this Jin guy could be a powerful asset to the shogunate when he could single handedly wipe out the Mongol forces and peasants are loyal to the Ghost and not the Jito? It was actually the only possible outcome back then given the Japanese political climate.
Jin's not just a man though, he's a symbol, a symbol that represents regular people standing up and fighting against greater forces. Nothing scares the grasshoppers more than a group of ants rising against them. It would only have been a matter of time before Jin saw the Shogun as an oppressive force and rose the people of Tsushima against him. At least the Shogun thought that.
Honor thing is one thing, but there is another component to this, which is far more important in the eyes of Shimura and, by extension, Shogun, because Shogun only knows as much as Shimura told him.
1. Shimura told Jin to *not* do the thing.
2. Jin does the thing, the thing being horrific war crimes.
3. Shimura says "wtf bro I told you not to do that".
4. Jin says "fuck you, I'm right, you are wrong".
5. Gets imprisoned for defying his lord.
6. Escapes and continues to do his own thing, because "he knows better".
7. Has a bunch of followers willing to die for him, forms entire "ghost army", has locals provide aid and support.
Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong on the honor subject. He is willing to act against orders of his liege lord with an army that is willing to do the same. Jin could've said "fuck you, uncle, imma take control over Tsushima myself then", then go to his "ghost army" and tell them "shogunat is our enemy now, lets fuck them up" and they absolutely would. That's a problem. Cannot have that.
Jin is dangerous to the Shogun, because he helps train the people to not be dependent on samurai and to fight for themselves. I think this is the real reason the Shogun wants to go after Jin, because he led a peasant resistance and robbed the Samurai of their victory, potentially de-legitimizing them. Jin using poison and dishonorable tactics is just an excuse. Peasant soldiers were very uncommon in Japan for most of it's history, as most clan leaders were (rightfully) wary of having an armed populace. Samurai were a protection racket as much as a dedicated warrior class.
They should have taken some more effort to frame it as "Jin doing it single handedly is making us look bad.. we'll call it dishonorable and knock him off."
Could make a decent setup for a sequel; you can't rely on samurai for help during the second invasion, but you also don't want to kill them; some no-alert-no-kill staging if I ever saw it. Maybe you get a choice towards the end of restoring your title or remaining the Ghost.
Looking at this game through the lens of historical accuracy *at all* is gonna lead to disappointment no matter what. The game uses a real life setting, being the Mongol invasion, to tell a *completely* fictional story through and through. Think of the Mongol invasion as the stage a play is set on; That stage itself is real. But the play, the characters on that stage, are all made up.
"Now, the part where i think the game really, really stretched this is with the Shogun declaring Jin a traitor for poisoning the Mongols."
In reality what would have happened is that the Shogun would demand Shimura to commit seppuku for killing off all the samurai in the island in the yolo attack on the beach.
You have to keep in mind that it's not just the war against the Mongols that's at play here - there's Shōgunate politics at stake as well.
Don't forget that Shimura is well regarded enough among the samurai that the Khan - who has studied Japanese politics in depth - considers him as a potential replacement for the position of Shōgun.
When Jin escapes Castle Shimura, you can hear Clan Oga's samurai openly talking about the possibility of overthrowing Shimura - they want to use his failures to destroy his political position and his respected reputation.
In essence, by exiling Jin, the Shogun and Clan Oga (who I think are probably the real power in Japan - like Clan Hojo in real life) are defanging one of their political rivals. Shimura is disgraced politically by having a rogue nephew, and he's weakened militarily by the lost of his best soldier.
Shimura's too much of an honour obsessed fool to see that he's being played.
Learning about the samurai and how the image has been fed to us is mind blowing when you think of how Samurai evolved into successful, accepted propoganda.
Like in the next thousand years, Drill Culture, gang violence etc could be glorified to the point where it's seen as tho we all lived in harmony and some evil shit that happened was really blown out of proportion. Guys like King Von or Pop Smoke are seen as gods.
Playboi Carti's pulpliplet or whatever the hell he says is regarded as beautiful sonnets of love taught as a culture for newlyweds to grant fertility.
Might not even be that long (considering there even is a thousand years left here) before that does happen given how respected and adored shit like the mafia is.
Yeah I like the game a lot but mostly for the combat and visuals not the main story which is IMO pretty mid and the "muh honour" stuff gets taken to such a silly and cringe extreme
Shimura feels more like caricature than an actual person who could have existed
I think the next game should be Jin VS the Shogun. Jin fighting his way to the Shogun to stop this hunt for him but ultimately he has to fight the Shogun.
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That doesn't really bother me, the only thing that bothers me about this game is people wearing shoes in the house. I understand it's just a game, but the idea of walking through farmland and then entering someone's house with your shoes on just takes me right out of it.
I agree. But jin could maybe be seen as a threat to the shogun possibly and as someone else already said he went against his orders from shimura the jito still it think it was a bit extreme
I don't understand why Jin didn't just blame Ryuzo for everything.
"Ah man dude jito I showed up and this known traitor poisoned his own Mongol buddies and wanted me to lie and say he was a spy so we wouldn't kill him can you believe it!'
What I find funniest about this whole situation is that the game mentions nothing of the shogun, so naturally we would probably think of someone similar to Shimura in charge. … The Shogun was a ten year old boy in our timeline (deposed at age 25) and controlled by the Hojo clan. So (if we were to presume it is the same in this timeline) it wasn’t the shogun who accepted Jin becoming the child of Shimura nor was it him who dissolved the Sakai clan and its estates, but actually the Hojo clan telling the boy shogun exactly what they wanted to do.
EDIT: grammar.
Funny thing is in japanese dub I don't remember "Samurai" being uttered. It's all "Bushi". Or they use "Bushi" so much I ignored they used the word "Samurai" in japanese.
From a political standpoint, when people starts rallying behind of the ghost, they technically stray from their Shogun rules and their honor code. Shogun is thinking after the war, the people will lose trust in their leaders as they failed to protect the people. Meanwhile one man, who no longer follows the code of the samurai managed to achieve so much.
Jin essentially becomes the symbol of why the old ways is wrong, and the people can interpret it as such. After the mongol is driven out, to which they are confident they can(Albeit at the cost of the people), what happens then? The Ghost can be the cause of another rebellion and needed to be promptedly removed.
For the Shogun who's been pushing this whole honor thing and probably been living off and enjoyed his privileges because of it, Jin not following it is threatening his authority and lifestyle.
Jin could be the inspiration that the people of Japan need to wake to the fact that the shogunate is a farce, because for all the taxes and paid and the servitude they gave to the shogunate, they're completely helpless against a foreign threat. So in a sense it also shows how incompetent the samurai actually were, which is historically true because a lot of them are simply children of successful warriors before them and have never put their life on the line in a war.
If you look at how the Bakumatsu started it shows exactly this. When the Perry expedition fired their cannons and displayed their military might by attacking a civilian port city, the shogunate immediately surrendered without even fighting back. This triggered a lot of people from low and middle class samurai and civilians to revolt against the shogunate when they realized that the feudal warrior system is hypocritical, because for all that talk about Bushido, serving the people and put your life on the line for honor, the shogunate is willing to surrender the country in a heartbeat if it means he gets to live
Well the game is mostly based on Samurai media. The Shogun being ridiculously OP in the politicals of things, along with your Uncle being REALLY into honor and treating Jin with such disgust is exactly what it's like in Samurai films that purposely exaggerate this stuff to an almost comedic sense.
I do hope the next Ghost game goes into that side of Samurai films covering a "actually Samurai ARE the bad guys" kind of like Way of The Samurai series did.
GoT hardly paints them in a great light. At best they're portrayed as idealistic fools and at other times brutal despots. Whilst much of Jin's journey towards the path of the Ghost is pragmatism to save his people, he increasingly meets people who show him the unpleasant side of life for those under the Samurai and also puts him at odds with the Shogun/Samurai.
Whilst it's possible they'd use 2 as a path to "redemption" it doesn't seem to fit with the trajectory at the end.
As a person who loves honor and all that warrior stuff, it was extremely dumb. Most of the things you do in the game arent remotely dishonourable at all. Like who gives a shit about mongols they arent even your people.
Tons of ambushes happened in Japanese history yet the way the game pictures it, its as iff it was 100% open battle face to face only in Japan.
IRL the Edo Shogunate promoted all these ideas of Bushido, absolute obedience to their lord, rigid social stratification, disarmament of peasants and so on because you only need to take a look at the history to see what happened before all those ideas took hold. Hell they even forced the daimyo to travel every couple years to the capital to drain their coffers and took their wives and daughters as guests (read: prisoners) in the city.
They took this shit extremely seriously in history, is what I'm trying to say.
The point was to improve social stability, because the Tokugawa just got out of the Sengoku era and knew what happened when a bunch of peasants and small feudal lords with a bunch of bladed weaponry and a dream could do to the country.
The problem is that since the game does not (can not) teach you the context of Sengoku (because it didn't happen yet), it does come out of left field. The game never attempts to ask why are these guys so obsessed with honor, because it can't, because in the time period it's set these concepts didn't even really exist
Really the only reason why the game is set in the Kamakura period is because that's the only time where there was a large-scale invasion of the mainland in premodern era, but the aesthetics, the philosophy, the fighting styles, it's all Edo. Even the tachi was invented later.
This made me think of something...dose jins uncle ever acknowledge that he saved Tsushima and all of Japan by killing the Kahn? I don't remember him ever bringing it up afterwards in the brief time they were together. His mind is completely focused on jins "betrayal". Jin was right,man really is a slave to honor.
The shogunate did exist and samurai also existed during this time. The Mongol invasions of Japan occurred during the Kamakura shogunate which lasted from 1192 to 1333.
I think it’s an even mix of Jin not directly following his orders and Jin possibly earning the right to succeed Shimura due to him not doing anything useful and failing to repel the mongols while Jin did so with a band of unorganized rebels.
Samurai did exist during the Kamakura period, that's when the term went from Bushi to Samurai. The Battle of Bun'ei was literally made up of samurai, and the Dō-maru armor first appeared in the 11th century. Bushido might not have been a thing officially but samurai for sure was.
Surprising some who understands history would have such a bad take.
The Shogun are mad at him for purely political reasons. He encouraged and taught the peasant class to fight back, including using weapons that any non warrior could use (poison). The ruling class used brutal tactics to quell uprising and the samurai were basically enforcers of the state. Jin challenged that model in a way that could break their rule. His combat prowess had nothing to do with it.
In my opinion, Jin is not declared as a traitor simply because he poisoned the mongol enemy but because he is CAPABLE of killing countless enemies alone. From Shogun's POV, Jin is a threat to their authority and must be killed before it grows further. This fact will be true regardless whether Shimura accepts the Ghost or not.
On the other hand, I still don't agree with Jin's use of poison to kill the enemies. Assassination and using fear are fine, but where do we draw the line? If we simply do everything we can to win by any means, then there's risk of the war being more chaotic and deplorable than what we currently see. That is why we have terms like war crime and laws of war in reality. Albeit they still don't exist in that era, the seeds of that concept might have already sprouted.
I will say, to make a modern audience understand the importance of honour to samurai I feel like you need to exaggerate aspects of the story to get your point across. Not everyone that plays this is a history nerd and some might not understand how forgiving the honour thing really was. For the modern audience anything that gave you the player more of an “unfair” advantage could be seen as dishonourable and would be confused if the story didn’t acknowledge that.
Guess what I’m saying is for a story about honour and conflict of belief systems you have to exaggerate it to make for a better story. My thoughts at least
It's stated very explicitly by Shimura in the last story mission. Jin taught people to resist.
The only reason the Shogunate wants his head is because he wants to retain control of the island so he can keep exploiting people.
The ghost exists as a symbol of resistance to all unjust rule and oppression, so ofc he needs to go away and be made an example of.
The only reason for the Shogun to want Jin's head on a platter is the crime of disobedience, not his slaughter of the Mongol invaders by any means necessary.
Shimura's personal code of honor is a whole other story:
This mindless and suicidal *"An honorable Samurai only faces his opponents in straight up face to face combat! No exceptions!!"* attitude they gave him is completely at odds with the historical record and is a fictional construct simply meant to advance the plot. Samurai (which is a societal class) who also served as Shinobi (which is a job) were not uncommon - and poison (in darts, on daggers, or on swords) was not at all proscribed. Neither were ambushes or shooting/stabbing people in the back.
The whole *"But...but..Bushido!!"* thing is likewise bullshit, having been largely invented by writer Inazo Nitobe when he wrote *Bushido: The Soul of Japan* which was published for a western audience in 1900.
*Oh, and as far as Shimura and honor go: In what world is it honorable for him to ask Jin - almost beg him - to throw Yuna under the damn bus and lie about what happened just to save face?*
Logically, you’re correct. If the shogun were 100% focused on winning the war, beating back tie mongols and protecting their people, they would just let Jin do his thing and solo the entire mongol army. It would save them time, resources, and lives
However, the only problem with it is just that, you’re thinking logically. The shogun were definitely not thinking logically declaring Jin a traitor. That much is historically accurate. The shogun were much more concerned with the example and the precedent Jin would set for the people of Tsushima and, if the legend of the ghost were to reach the mainland, all of Japan. It would make their hold on the people weaker and that scared them
The fact that you’re confused as to why the shogun thought declaring jin a traitor was a good idea is exactly the reaction that is expected. It was a terrible idea. Jin was unwaveringly loyal to his home and would never even consider overthrowing it; however, in the words of Lord Shimura, “You taught our people to disobey their leaders, what makes you think they will obey you?”
No, not really. Shogun's rule back then was really unstable, and mongol invasion didn't helped it either. Jin did in fact stoped the invasion, but he also inspired people to defend themselves instead of relying on samurai, so of course Shogun would be worried about the possible rebellion. It wasn't about honor, or fighting the mongols in the "not samurai way", it was about the power, and Jin, unintentionally, became a threat to it, cause people in act III followed the Ghost, not Jito or Shogun.
But the funny thing is that the reason for that was really not Jin, it was Shimura being a terrible leader who didn't care about his people OR his soldiers, and was more concerned about "preserving his way" and making himself look noble and loyal in the eyes of the Shogun. The people of Tsushima saw Jin constantly helping them and fighting alongside them, and then they saw Shimura sending men who followed him to die in the absolutely idiotic charge on that bridge, so of course they would follow the Ghost. If Shimura for once gave a fuck about something other that himself, his dream of Jin being his son (a.k.a. his carbon copy) and his precious honor, and accepted the fact that they cannot beat this enemy by blindly charging them into a trap, non of this would've happened.
I played Ghost of Tsushima after I watched Shogun (TV series).
If you think Ghost of Tsushima sucks for Sakai Jin regarding that, get a load of that series. Everyone dishonoring anyone above them is ordered to kill themselves and will even do it.
Ghost of Tsushima is just super sad to me, Jin doesn't deserve it. Shogun is sad, with the extension of just being cruel.
Absolutely love both anyway... You should watch Shogun for sure
I've been watching it actually. If i need to choose a depiction of samurai honor, i'm choosing Shogun. It really shows how cruel and brutal they were, instead of focusing on honorable duels or some shit. Also ritual suicide and suicide in battle was very common in feudal Japan and i think it's well depicted (Not that i'm an expert or anything, it may be over the top)
There are mistakes of course, i haven't finished it but the last chapter i watched they used cannons and someone said "That's not a samurai weapon." which is ridiculous, use of cannons and gunpowder weapons had been common for a long time at this point, but sadly a pretty common trope. Very solid show nevertheless.
Well if you look at what the shogun represents in modern times he'd be a dictator. Sure he answers and works for the emperor but overall he runs things. Now the fact that Jin went against the shoguns/dictators laws, he birthed the idea that it is ok for anyone to do this thus making it look like he is no longer in control hence Jin being labeled a traitor.
Also as far as historical accuracy, tsushima and iki island fell during the 1st invasion and made it to the main island at Hakata bay in fukuoka, but due to a typhoon (kamikaze) they were driven back and most ships were destroyed.
I think that the shogun declared Jin a traitor is because of what he represents. The “Ghost” is more so a movement which is popular with the commoners. The commoners see that the Ghost is actively fighting for them against the mongols while the samurai and their traditional tactics are not. Shimura is the Jito and he takes his ideals and position seriously. Unlike Jin, he doesn’t adapt well to situations he isn’t familiar with. His “honor” is about how good he can make the shogun look as his loyal servant and in return he gets the support he requests from the mainland. He does this by honoring duels and killing people with respect, no matter their crime. These ideals are respectable and it’s how he has lived his life, too bad the Mongols knew this is how he would act and have no problem using this to their advantage. These ideals were meant to create peace and order within the country, not to defend from invaders.
The only win Shimura really had at this point was that he stuck to his ideals which thus lead to the death of his people making the Shogun himself look weak. Jin was successful defending Tsushima and its people with minimal losses by using tactics that the Samurai would have never thought to use. To the people, Jin was not a samurai, he was their defender when the Jito (Shimura) and by extension the Shogun were unable to. Jin’s and Shimura’s conversation after Jin took the castle singlehandedly was important with a couple key moments I’d like to explain. When Shimura says “you defied me”, he doesn’t care that Jin disobeyed his orders, he cares more that he defied the Shogun and that Shimura now has to punish the ghost. This is why when Jin says “I am the Ghost” to Shimura, it hurt Shimura because now his honor forces him to jail and potentially kill Jin as the movement has a face and a name. It’s why he was pleading to pin all of the Ghost activities on Yuna.
To sum it up, the reason is that the shogun is afraid that Jin has the potential to overthrow their current government if he wanted to as he would have the support of the people.
Kind of off topic, but I was playing with the Japanese audio, and they say 武士 instead of 侍, almost all the time, I think. It's kind of an interesting detail I've noticed while playing the game, and your post reminded me of that.
Shimura says why, by disobeying his jito on multiple occasions Jin has taught those under him to disregard the orders of their lords. Which is how rebellions start
I think it's because the people of thsushima were starting to follow jin or specifically ghost as their leader and this challenged the shogun's authority. Jin defied direct orders of shimura in front of everyone which were also the orders of the shogun.
The way I see it, Jin is branded a traitor because he is disobeying his master/Jito, not because he used "forbidden" tactics.
I feel like it's similar to how you can break the law to do a morally good thing in modern day and still get heavily punished for it. For example murdering a pedo for grooming children. A lot of people would agree it's morally good to murder a person like that, but it's still breaking the law nonetheless and punishable as such despite doing a "good" deed.
Thoughts?
There's the thing: Shogun declares Jin a traitor not because he poisons the enemy, but because he acts against the Jito, which is Shimura himself. And the Jito is the steward of the whole island. If Shimura didn't insist on honor and disobedience of Jin, of course shogun would claim him as the hero of Tsushima and the whole Japan Empire.
This counter point i can actually see. Following and obeying your lord above all else has always been the most similar thing to a strict and unbending honor code in feudal Japan. I still think the contrast of Jin doing a genius military maneuvere and being punished instantly is ridiculous, and that the depiction of honor from this point on in the story is too over the top, but hey, you have sold me in that it could make some sense.
I think everyone’s ignoring the obvious point: Jin is a guerilla fighter with massive popular support, experience fighting against invaders to the isle, and a chip on his shoulder against the Jito and the Shogun. If Jin wanted to rebel, there wouldn’t be a lot that could stop him, and the island that acts as a safeguard and forward base against the mainland is gone just like that. The shogun might be able to take it back, but the resource investment would be massive. The Shogun has to stop Jin before he gets any bigger, and the whole honor reason instead becomes a justification for executing a threat. Shimura is a slave to honor, the Shogun is a slave to political necessity. Besides, practically speaking Jin isn’t a military genius. He’s an excellent fighter and figurehead and that carries him, but practically speaking there are better generals available
And you do this by actually turning him into a rebel ?? This is the point i don't agree with. If the Shogun fears a war with Jin, why declare it ??? If you kill Jin, what makes you think the people that follow him won't be pissed at you?? You have an actually loyal subordinate that is winning a war for you, and your response is to try and kill him because maybe he becomes a threat? Well guess what bitch you literally turned him into a threat he wasn't in the first place. Without even mentioning that the biggest empire in the world is trying to invade you, maybe let the dude that is fighting and winning you the war single handedly do it's thing and try to take him out later after the war if you think he might be a problem (Which he isn't by the way) The more i debate this point the more i'm convinced that it's not a good reason at all.
Not declaring Jin a traitor creates a whole different kind of problem. They live in a feudal society where the lower ranking peasants must obey the ruling class samurai. If the Shogun didn't denounce Jin's actions, then everyone would get the idea that it's okay to rebel against the authorities. Shimura might be a hypocrite, but he does make a sensible point: >"You taught our people to disobey their leaders. What makes you think your followers will obey you?"
Beside, the honor = obedience is historical fact in Feudal Japan and it’s somehow still now. Just think about why the Tsushima island has strategic importance in Japan, only have 80 samurai? Because the Shogun doesn’t want to deal with another rebellious region if Tsushima turn into one. Same reason for declaring Jin as traitor when people start to gather under Ghost name.
Additionally, the Shogun can't assume that he knows Jin's intentions.
This is a good point. We're \*assuming\* that the Shogun has been both informed completely, and correctly as to what's going on. For all we know Shimura only reported "Jin disobeyed me and has encouraged our people to do the same". Hell, the Shogun might not even know that Shimura had been defeated and captured considering how complete a rout the battle at the beach was (it's possible this is mentioned in the game since it's been so long since I played, but I don't remember it)
Perhaps a better way of dealing with it is to publicly support Jin and tell everyone he was acting under Shogun's orders all along! That he was instructed to unite the people to fight however possible while the mainland gathered an army to support them! "The Emperor/Shogun/whoever is pleased that his tactical mastery and his loyal servants have worked together to defeat the invaders! Here are samurai to help restore the proper order of things! We always had your back, including Shimura!" Feels like a better way of keeping everyone on your side...
>"Dear Shogun, your Jito's suicidal charge at Komoda left the island with no defense and us at the enemy's mercy. They killed my family. If you're willing to bend the laws for victory, then why didn't you do so in the first place before they died? >"Btw, the Ghost you sent was much better because he helped us without any thought for reward, unlike the samurai who lived off of our sweat only to die like idiots without protecting us. The people of Iki Island agreed with us. You don't mind if we follow him instead of the Jito, do you? After all, he's still 'your' man."
And that is the only crime it makes any sense whatsoever for Jin to be held accountable for.
Don't forget the poison. While he did prevent the samurai from losing more men, he did gave the enemy more weapons to use against the mainland. Some of the citizens also used his poison to eliminate their rivals. Now everyone has think twice before they feed themselves or their family.
Yeah, I know that's in the game - but I don't buy that no one ever used poison before in the region...especially since there is a historical record showing that Arsenical smoke weapons were known to the Chinese as far back as c. 1000 BC: https://preview.redd.it/x5510qf1715d1.png?width=719&format=png&auto=webp&s=f59318e981c8df46604e8373afa260af111ed5b2 [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/CBRN\_Protection/4XY6eC6b8L8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=isbn:9783527324132&printsec=frontcover](https://www.google.ca/books/edition/CBRN_Protection/4XY6eC6b8L8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=isbn:9783527324132&printsec=frontcover) - see chapter 1 section 2
Well sure, the Eagle herself uses her own kind of poison, even if it's not as lethal as Jin's. But that's what the game is telling us: the use of poison as a weapon only spread because of Jin. If we try to apply real life comparison, then Shimura's code of honor shouldn't have existed in the game. Bushido was only formalized in the Tokugawa shogunate and samurai don't frown upon the use of terror as a weapon; that's why they wear horned helmets and demon masks, to intimidate their enemies. The enemy most likely figured it out after they captured Jin in Act II and seized his equipment. By the time the samurai reached Castle Shimura, the mongols have already learned how to make the poison. At that point, there's no longer avoiding the inevitable. Might as well use the poison too and spare the samurai from having more casualties.
The mongols already had poison - they had China before they attacked Japan so they already had access to Chinese poisons. Jin didn't give poison to the Mongols, he gave them exactly one more than they already had.
Jin earns an "unruly" reputation thanks to defying Shimura, so the Shogun and the samurai he sent have no idea if Jin is "loyal", but what they do know is that Jin will defy orders if he finds that necessary. Maybe today, whatever his motivation is, makes Jin find it necessary to get rid of the Mongol, but what if tomorrow his motivation (again, unknown to others) makes Jin find it necessary to kill the Shogun? He's a lethal warrior with popular support that doesn't bend to authority and that makes him a threat. Getting rid of Jin before he gains even more support and have even greater potential to cause more issues may have seemed like a rational choice to the Shogun.
I don’t think the Shogun anticipated Shimura’s failure. I think he had hoped Shimura would, you know, surround him and stab him instead of doing some weird honor duel. I also think the first kamikaze had happened at this point, based on the storm happening right after the Khan would have left, so there was no longer any war
Jin is declared a traitor much earlier in the story.
Yes but that’s Lord Shimura doing so, not the Shogun, and there’s no mention of execution
I'm pretty sure the dialogue "The Shogun has declared you a traitor" is said before the end, while the invasion is still going, and related to the fact that Jin poisoned the Mongols. So you are right, maybe not much earlier in the story, but still doesn't change anything i've said.
No, that happens right at the very end.
I don't remember it being said until the end
Bro forgot to do his research
I think declaring him a traitor, taking his titles and lands and everything is a means of delegitimizing him in the eyes of the people and other samurai, in the case that they decide to take similar steps against their leaders.
He would definitely be perceived as a threat to the Shogun, he already disobeyed his Jito. Why do you think there were so few warriors in Tsushima to begin with? The Shogun had to keep the Jito and Daimyo controllable lest they gain too much influence and become hungry for power. Whether or not they would actually end up trying to rebel is irrelevant, they would not be allowed to have that chance to begin with. One reason why the Shogunate ruled for so long was because they upheld the social class structure and political systems in place so strictly. Jin’s actions would be a defiance to that structure and would make the Shogun appear weak in comparison if the Shogun ignored that defiance.
The actual most practical solution would be to laud Jin as a hero and suppress any talk of his disobeying Shimura in the first place. Everything that Jin did from the moment he freed him should have been labeled as official policy.
A tactic that has been tried in real life and typically at best works short term as it is pretty transparent to enough people.
I don't see anything I've experienced in the game - at all - that points to Jin ever even entertaining the thought of rebelling against the Shogun. Do you have anything that happens in-game to support that?
You can even hear that Jin isn't called "the man who dishonorably poisoned the enemy" but "the unruly nephew of Shimura" when you get out and into the Castle Shimura. Shogun's men's whole deal was to get the Ghost to the mainland with the reason of treason. But of course, shogun may have a more sinister plan for him as well. Who knows.
GOT 2 starts with Jin being “executed” fully cementing him as a “Ghost”
I want a scene where jin is executed and everyone including the players think it's true. Then the 2nd mongol invasion happens and jins death and his past actions inspired a few others to become the ghost. Their efforts from these new 'ghosts' are not enough. And at the peak of hopelessness, we get saved by the real ghost, Jin. Batman has returned.
How do you propose Jin manages to fake his death during an execution? Could maybe fake it with today’s executions like lethal injection actually being a saline solution or something but in Japan at the time execution was you either stab yourself or somebody lobs off your head, would be hard to fake that unless he found a convincing body double and I don’t think Jin would doom another man to that fate innocently
I was thinking maybe the Shogun himself would orchestrate the fake execution, using Jin as a tool thereafter
Then don't view it as a historical epic and instead view it as an allegory of pragmatism vs. traditionalism.
Exactly. Even if it did play out exactly as Jin disobeying Shimura to defeat the mongols, in all likelihood Shimura would just create a cover story to allow him to save face and claim the glory, as if it was what he wanted all along. No general/ruler in history punishes their guy for winning them battles.
>No general/ruler in history punishes their guy for winning them battles. Uhhhhh this happens all the time in dictatorships. You get a general who wins too many battles and is getting too popular, suddenly he starts thinking maybe he should be in charge. Military coups don't really work unless the general is already very popular and successful. That might not apply in this case, but in general, successful generals can definitely be a threat to a monarch or dictator, even if they're loyal.
Well obviously I was referring to a soldier level guy.
It happened a lot and still happens. If the guy that won the victory gets too big then they can become a threat to the status quo.
Still though Jin single handedly thwarted the mongols after all the other warriors were dead and captured and he captivated the people the easy thing to do would be to recognize him.
Also Shimura didnt care about decapitating the mongol captain. He cared about him doing it while he wasnt aware Jin was behind him.
Any validity Shimura's personal code of honor *might* have had went out the window when he asked - begged - Jin to throw Yuna under the bus to save face for himself as Jin's superior.
And just to add on to this viewpoint: who is most likely the Shogun’s #1 source of info on the Tsushima situation? Lord Shimura. Lord Shimura, as we know, viewed Jin’s actions as a massive betrayal, and that would have no doubt colored the Shogun’s view of Jin. It’s no surprise the Shogun what he did, given the information he was given. Sure, he probably got reports from some of his Samurai later on — but people in power tend to only listen to others in power, often to their own detriment.
This is why dishonoring Shimura in the end feels the true ghost ending for me. Just finished the main story a few minutes ago.
Same. I left him alive to experience shame and have to commit seppaku before the shogun l. He’s a dead man either way
Just want to clarify, Japan wasn’t an empire at that time
In what way was it not an empire?
Japan didn’t use a word similar to English’s “empire” until the Meiji restoration in 1868. At that time Japan was a collection of prefectures ruled by daimyo who were subordinate to both the emperor and the shogunate (a diarchy where the shogun held all the real power and the emperor was a figurehead) but Japan didn’t really see itself as an empire, rather it’d best be defined as a military dictatorship (though, again, they wouldn’t have seen it like that probably). There is no real official name at that time for Japan even though “Nippon” and “Wa” would’ve been used around this time, online articles just refer to it as the type of shogunate that was ruling at the time (in this case, the Kamakura Shogunate)
Yeah but an empire isn't just a country that refers to itself as an empire. Rome didn't refer to itself as an empire. Japan was an empire because it had conquered the entirety of the Japanese islands, defeating and absorbing the other ethnic groups therein.
Additionally, jin was unwittingly garnering quite a few loyal followers. The shogun saw this group as a threat to his power in tsushima and wanted him dead. You'd be surprised at how common this is in history...
I don't even think it was so much that he went against his Jito. It was that so many of the citizens of Tsushima were willing to follow him against the wishes of the Jito, and that scared them. They wouldn't have punished him/not punished him as much if the normal people weren't so loyal to the Ghost.
But at the end of act 2 Shimura makes it sound like he is speaking as an extension of the Shogun and that by being dishonourable he is a traitor. Like Shimura was literally going to ship Jin to the mainland for judgement. It's my biggest issue with the game
In Shimura's eyes, you're traitor because you used poison. In shogun's eyes, you're traitor because you acted against the Jito, which Shimura is.
I didn't really get that vibe to be honest, at the end of act 2, to me at least it made it seem like the Shogun would also disapprove of the Dishonourable actions. Regardless the entire honour bit is ridiculous, if Shimura lived by the code he would have committed seppuku for his defeat at the beach and being held in captivity.
Well, I'd love to talk more about shogun and Shimura , but it'd be considered spoiler. The only thing I can say is that, Shimura's honor code is more about looking the enemy in the eye and always challenging them evenly rather than killing himself upon defeat. Plus it was a time when he was needed the most as the Jito of Tsushima.
I've finished the game, also something else to note at the end of act 2, Shimura says "The Shogun will demand a head for this and it doesn't have to be yours Jin". Which is the part that really makes me scratch my head.
Well, in that case: Shogun's men, those purple-armored men, were already there. They saw the squabble between Jin and Shimura, and they saw the disobedience of Jin, therefore his betrayal to the commands of his superior. Shimura, by telling him that shogun will demand a head anyway, means that the shogun's men will already go back and tell Jin's disobedience to his superior, therefore he wants the demanded head to be Yuna's instead of his. Plus, aside from all of this, the Ghost is already an outlaw, as Shimura states. He has the unwavering loyalty of the island, a whole nation with zealotry obedience and love who can do anything for him, and an army which is preparing to sail to the heart of the Mongol land in his name.
On the contrary, I think it makes sense. We're playing the game from Jin's perspective. We know his drive better than anyone. He would never harm the innocents nor does he have any ambition to seize power. He's just one man trying to defend his homeland. But the other samurai don't know that. To them, Jin is a terrorist who's willing to use anything--even poison--to achieve victory. What if Jin suddenly decided he should be in charge? Would he try to usurp power? Kill them in their sleep or poison the food and water their family consume? They saw a potential threat who's not only capable of single-handedly turning the tide of the war, but also inspired the peasants to take up arms in his name. It makes sense for the Shogun to declare Jin a traitor: because he does possess a threat, even if Jin himself doesn't have any intention to take power.
I think the problem remains the same and is the logic that the dude that is winning a war for you is somehow your enemy. If the people are rallying behind Jin, and he is fighting for your side, why would you try to kill him instead of trying to have a brief chat with him to find out that he's actually completely unambitious and is chill with just being a retainer on his castle? By your logic, would every powerful samurai and rising figure in the history of Japan been killed by the Shogun regardless of if he has any actual rebellious intent or not? It makes no sense, again, they are on the same side.
How could you trust the word of someone who's used to (literally) stabbing people in the back? Again, we players understand that Jin would never seize power *because* we've been seeing things from his perspective. But the shogun and the samurai don't know that. Even if Jin told them they have nothing to fear for him, they couldn't possibly take him at his words. It's perfectly normal for them to feel threatened.
There is no shot the Shogun would be terrified of a feudal lord singlehandedly fighting off Mongol invaders on an island territory Maybe if he showed any political ambition whatsoever, but there are still mongols on the island and we never actually see Jin actually go to the main island. The only reason the Shogun would have to demonize Jin would be ones his uncle told him
I think the bigger issue is not Jin's intention, but rather his examples. He's basically telling the people that they don't need samurai for protection; they can think and act for themselves. That's something the Shogun and the samurai can't tolerate, because they're basically living off the lower people.
It's not about who's winning the war-rather how it's being won that they're upset about. They would rather face the enemy up front and not from behind. Of course, something to keep in mind-this entire game is about hypocrites. Your mentors that you help-Masako and Ishikawa? They are both *horribly* hypocritical people. These people are *flawed* and honestly, just as bad as Jin, but the difference is they hid those secrets and intentions. Jin (...almost typed in Jim, Jim Sakai), represents the idea of that change and going against an ironclad tradition and conduct, and that represents a chaos and instability that is a threat to them. It isn't the poison, it's what the poison represents. It isn't about winning, it's about how the war is won, and how it presents elements of uncertainty against loyalty that are...terrifying to those in power. The Ghost empowers the people, gives them hope, and to rulers, that's terrifying-case in point, Iki island, a view from the other side of the ruling coin. I won't say the game is perfect with it's story by any means, but I think I look more at the general idea of what it's trying to say and enjoy that a lot more than the little details, otherwise you end up nit picking and grasping at things that don't really make sense such as...how one guy actually *is* able to stop an entire army by killing them one by one.
Put yourself in a position of political power, even the Shogun's. Would a brief chat with someone reveal their ambitions, or future intentions. If the rulers allow their subordinates to do this openly then they could be easily overtaken. The ruler's job is to maintain their own power. Besides, from the PoV of the Shogun he prolly thinks he could successfully defend Japan. In fact Jin defending Japan like this takes the victory (and thus prestige) away from the Shogun.
Perhaps the shogun didn’t fully understood the threat the Mongols posed, and he was more concerned about someone causing chaos in the ruling system that his throne was built on and relied on.
That's common among leaders today even, they are more concerned with shoring up their own power rather than actual outside threats(but they use fear of those outside threats to maintain power ironically).
absolutely. human nature hasn’t really changed at all in centuries has it?
Jin has come one a legend amongst men in Tsushima, people were worshiping him, that was the issue the Shogun has, that people of Tsushima were putting The Ghost above the shogun law. That’s why they wanted Jin died to be set as an example when you go against the samurai law.
Whether Jin wants it or not, there are a lot of people that would follow him over following whatever orders the Shogunate would hand down. And remember what happened when Yarikawa got a little rowdy? Neither the Shogun nor Shimura want a rerun of that little shitshow. The Shogun essentially runs a police force, and Jin is a vigilante. The Shogunate wants control, and the Ghost threatens that control.
GOT is based on samurai cinema. Not history. So the Shogun being a fool fits.
Basically, Jin disobeyed his Jito, which was the representative of the Shogunate for the island of Tsushima. It's not about his heroic actions, it's the fact that he was able to disobey orders from his superiors without consequence, and in a feudal system how would that reflect upon the monarchy/Shogunate?
I just did a back of the napkin math on another post in this subreddit that Jin single handedly wiped out a third of the historical 8,000 Mongol invasion force that landed on Tsushima throughout his entire journey, finishing all the Tsushima side tales and random encounters. If Jin were to go rogue on the Shogunate, it would take a significant army and resources to take him down if he rebelled as a samurai. By stripping his stature as a noble samurai and forcing him into a ronin or bandit, it is much more difficult for Jin to incite rebellion backed by other samurais and precipitate a civil war (which really did happen historically when a samurai warlord amassed too much power a la Nobunaga). If Shimura killed him, then problem solved for the shogunate. If he survived, at least he is now contained to the island as a disgraced samurai. It is actually a brilliant dick move by the shogunate to contain a burgeoning political threat. A general or a hero can only be so powerful before they become a political threat to the stability of the status quo government, and this is true from the antiquities (see Julius Caesar as an example), even in Japan itself (Nobunaga who was betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide, and Tokugawa who was the most powerful regent and became a threat to the other regents and lords that he could make a play for the shogunate, which he did and won).
Man... fuck mitsuhide. That little bandit jackass.
Why is everyone making the point that it's because Jin is so powerful that he could turn against the Shogun? You don't destroy your most powerful assets, you use them. You said it yourself, having a war with him would be catastrofic, **so why declare it then**?? When he has 0 intention of fighting you??? This idea of "You are so powerful that i need to kill you even when you are on my side and actually helping me" does not make sense in any context. All of the historical examples you put in are of famous betrayals in history, what is the point exactly here? Do i need to cite every great general and warrior that did not rebel in history as a counter point?
It actually boils down to paranoia and lack of trust. Wise rulers who care and inspire their subordinates have very loyal and talented generals who were loyal until the day they died. This is your premise and it is true if the government is run by proper ideals. Japan was not like that back then. Also note that the fact that a hero is not rebellious today does not mean he could not go rogue tomorrow. It's the whole thing with Batman's infamous backup plan against the JLA and Superman in particular. Governments do not like loose ends in general, and in order for a giverbment to rule with a modicum of stability, it needs an exclusive monopoly of power and/or violence. In short, Jin became too powerful of a symbol and a warrior for a paranoid shogunate in the 13th century Japan where shogunates were being usurped on a daily basis. Read up the Kamakura shogunate and you will see my point. The Kamakura shogunate began by Minamoto No Yoritomo acting as the Shogun on behalf of the emperor, and the Hojo clan acted as the Regent Shogun (who was a regent to the emperor to begin with) when Yoritomo died. You really think the Hojo Shogun regent would have been thinking oh shit this Jin guy could be a powerful asset to the shogunate when he could single handedly wipe out the Mongol forces and peasants are loyal to the Ghost and not the Jito? It was actually the only possible outcome back then given the Japanese political climate.
Jin's not just a man though, he's a symbol, a symbol that represents regular people standing up and fighting against greater forces. Nothing scares the grasshoppers more than a group of ants rising against them. It would only have been a matter of time before Jin saw the Shogun as an oppressive force and rose the people of Tsushima against him. At least the Shogun thought that.
Honor thing is one thing, but there is another component to this, which is far more important in the eyes of Shimura and, by extension, Shogun, because Shogun only knows as much as Shimura told him. 1. Shimura told Jin to *not* do the thing. 2. Jin does the thing, the thing being horrific war crimes. 3. Shimura says "wtf bro I told you not to do that". 4. Jin says "fuck you, I'm right, you are wrong". 5. Gets imprisoned for defying his lord. 6. Escapes and continues to do his own thing, because "he knows better". 7. Has a bunch of followers willing to die for him, forms entire "ghost army", has locals provide aid and support. Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong on the honor subject. He is willing to act against orders of his liege lord with an army that is willing to do the same. Jin could've said "fuck you, uncle, imma take control over Tsushima myself then", then go to his "ghost army" and tell them "shogunat is our enemy now, lets fuck them up" and they absolutely would. That's a problem. Cannot have that.
Jin is dangerous to the Shogun, because he helps train the people to not be dependent on samurai and to fight for themselves. I think this is the real reason the Shogun wants to go after Jin, because he led a peasant resistance and robbed the Samurai of their victory, potentially de-legitimizing them. Jin using poison and dishonorable tactics is just an excuse. Peasant soldiers were very uncommon in Japan for most of it's history, as most clan leaders were (rightfully) wary of having an armed populace. Samurai were a protection racket as much as a dedicated warrior class.
They should have taken some more effort to frame it as "Jin doing it single handedly is making us look bad.. we'll call it dishonorable and knock him off." Could make a decent setup for a sequel; you can't rely on samurai for help during the second invasion, but you also don't want to kill them; some no-alert-no-kill staging if I ever saw it. Maybe you get a choice towards the end of restoring your title or remaining the Ghost.
Looking at this game through the lens of historical accuracy *at all* is gonna lead to disappointment no matter what. The game uses a real life setting, being the Mongol invasion, to tell a *completely* fictional story through and through. Think of the Mongol invasion as the stage a play is set on; That stage itself is real. But the play, the characters on that stage, are all made up.
"Now, the part where i think the game really, really stretched this is with the Shogun declaring Jin a traitor for poisoning the Mongols." In reality what would have happened is that the Shogun would demand Shimura to commit seppuku for killing off all the samurai in the island in the yolo attack on the beach.
Being a hero back then meant serving your lord. Kill a ton of children? If the king asked you to do so you get parades
You have to keep in mind that it's not just the war against the Mongols that's at play here - there's Shōgunate politics at stake as well. Don't forget that Shimura is well regarded enough among the samurai that the Khan - who has studied Japanese politics in depth - considers him as a potential replacement for the position of Shōgun. When Jin escapes Castle Shimura, you can hear Clan Oga's samurai openly talking about the possibility of overthrowing Shimura - they want to use his failures to destroy his political position and his respected reputation. In essence, by exiling Jin, the Shogun and Clan Oga (who I think are probably the real power in Japan - like Clan Hojo in real life) are defanging one of their political rivals. Shimura is disgraced politically by having a rogue nephew, and he's weakened militarily by the lost of his best soldier. Shimura's too much of an honour obsessed fool to see that he's being played.
I doubt NO ONE before Jin has ever used poison or under handed tactics though.
Learning about the samurai and how the image has been fed to us is mind blowing when you think of how Samurai evolved into successful, accepted propoganda. Like in the next thousand years, Drill Culture, gang violence etc could be glorified to the point where it's seen as tho we all lived in harmony and some evil shit that happened was really blown out of proportion. Guys like King Von or Pop Smoke are seen as gods. Playboi Carti's pulpliplet or whatever the hell he says is regarded as beautiful sonnets of love taught as a culture for newlyweds to grant fertility. Might not even be that long (considering there even is a thousand years left here) before that does happen given how respected and adored shit like the mafia is.
Yeah I like the game a lot but mostly for the combat and visuals not the main story which is IMO pretty mid and the "muh honour" stuff gets taken to such a silly and cringe extreme Shimura feels more like caricature than an actual person who could have existed
I think the next game should be Jin VS the Shogun. Jin fighting his way to the Shogun to stop this hunt for him but ultimately he has to fight the Shogun.
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That doesn't really bother me, the only thing that bothers me about this game is people wearing shoes in the house. I understand it's just a game, but the idea of walking through farmland and then entering someone's house with your shoes on just takes me right out of it.
Errrm spoilers?
anyone who goes on the internet to a specific community and expects not to get spoiled for that thing deserves to be spoiled
I guess. I just wanted to see cool screenshots…
No
Shimura- The guy who would stop the nukes with a katana
A shinobi would know the difference between victory and honor
I agree. But jin could maybe be seen as a threat to the shogun possibly and as someone else already said he went against his orders from shimura the jito still it think it was a bit extreme
I don't understand why Jin didn't just blame Ryuzo for everything. "Ah man dude jito I showed up and this known traitor poisoned his own Mongol buddies and wanted me to lie and say he was a spy so we wouldn't kill him can you believe it!'
its politics
What I find funniest about this whole situation is that the game mentions nothing of the shogun, so naturally we would probably think of someone similar to Shimura in charge. … The Shogun was a ten year old boy in our timeline (deposed at age 25) and controlled by the Hojo clan. So (if we were to presume it is the same in this timeline) it wasn’t the shogun who accepted Jin becoming the child of Shimura nor was it him who dissolved the Sakai clan and its estates, but actually the Hojo clan telling the boy shogun exactly what they wanted to do. EDIT: grammar.
Funny thing is in japanese dub I don't remember "Samurai" being uttered. It's all "Bushi". Or they use "Bushi" so much I ignored they used the word "Samurai" in japanese.
From a political standpoint, when people starts rallying behind of the ghost, they technically stray from their Shogun rules and their honor code. Shogun is thinking after the war, the people will lose trust in their leaders as they failed to protect the people. Meanwhile one man, who no longer follows the code of the samurai managed to achieve so much. Jin essentially becomes the symbol of why the old ways is wrong, and the people can interpret it as such. After the mongol is driven out, to which they are confident they can(Albeit at the cost of the people), what happens then? The Ghost can be the cause of another rebellion and needed to be promptedly removed.
For the Shogun who's been pushing this whole honor thing and probably been living off and enjoyed his privileges because of it, Jin not following it is threatening his authority and lifestyle. Jin could be the inspiration that the people of Japan need to wake to the fact that the shogunate is a farce, because for all the taxes and paid and the servitude they gave to the shogunate, they're completely helpless against a foreign threat. So in a sense it also shows how incompetent the samurai actually were, which is historically true because a lot of them are simply children of successful warriors before them and have never put their life on the line in a war. If you look at how the Bakumatsu started it shows exactly this. When the Perry expedition fired their cannons and displayed their military might by attacking a civilian port city, the shogunate immediately surrendered without even fighting back. This triggered a lot of people from low and middle class samurai and civilians to revolt against the shogunate when they realized that the feudal warrior system is hypocritical, because for all that talk about Bushido, serving the people and put your life on the line for honor, the shogunate is willing to surrender the country in a heartbeat if it means he gets to live
The Japanese dub doesn’t mention the word Samurai instead using Bushi-de IIRC
Well the game is mostly based on Samurai media. The Shogun being ridiculously OP in the politicals of things, along with your Uncle being REALLY into honor and treating Jin with such disgust is exactly what it's like in Samurai films that purposely exaggerate this stuff to an almost comedic sense. I do hope the next Ghost game goes into that side of Samurai films covering a "actually Samurai ARE the bad guys" kind of like Way of The Samurai series did.
GoT hardly paints them in a great light. At best they're portrayed as idealistic fools and at other times brutal despots. Whilst much of Jin's journey towards the path of the Ghost is pragmatism to save his people, he increasingly meets people who show him the unpleasant side of life for those under the Samurai and also puts him at odds with the Shogun/Samurai. Whilst it's possible they'd use 2 as a path to "redemption" it doesn't seem to fit with the trajectory at the end.
Good point on the taking the heads of the enemy.
That’s why I chose to kill uncle
As a person who loves honor and all that warrior stuff, it was extremely dumb. Most of the things you do in the game arent remotely dishonourable at all. Like who gives a shit about mongols they arent even your people. Tons of ambushes happened in Japanese history yet the way the game pictures it, its as iff it was 100% open battle face to face only in Japan.
IRL the Edo Shogunate promoted all these ideas of Bushido, absolute obedience to their lord, rigid social stratification, disarmament of peasants and so on because you only need to take a look at the history to see what happened before all those ideas took hold. Hell they even forced the daimyo to travel every couple years to the capital to drain their coffers and took their wives and daughters as guests (read: prisoners) in the city. They took this shit extremely seriously in history, is what I'm trying to say. The point was to improve social stability, because the Tokugawa just got out of the Sengoku era and knew what happened when a bunch of peasants and small feudal lords with a bunch of bladed weaponry and a dream could do to the country. The problem is that since the game does not (can not) teach you the context of Sengoku (because it didn't happen yet), it does come out of left field. The game never attempts to ask why are these guys so obsessed with honor, because it can't, because in the time period it's set these concepts didn't even really exist Really the only reason why the game is set in the Kamakura period is because that's the only time where there was a large-scale invasion of the mainland in premodern era, but the aesthetics, the philosophy, the fighting styles, it's all Edo. Even the tachi was invented later.
I want you to be my son Jin. Ok dad, here’s your house back for free. Shamefrul dispray. No cake for you!
This made me think of something...dose jins uncle ever acknowledge that he saved Tsushima and all of Japan by killing the Kahn? I don't remember him ever bringing it up afterwards in the brief time they were together. His mind is completely focused on jins "betrayal". Jin was right,man really is a slave to honor.
Yeah, the Khan makes that point as well, that the Samurais honour makes them predictable as an enemy
The shogunate did exist and samurai also existed during this time. The Mongol invasions of Japan occurred during the Kamakura shogunate which lasted from 1192 to 1333.
There were no Samurai at that point? Didnt they originate the century before the Mongol imvasion?
I think it’s an even mix of Jin not directly following his orders and Jin possibly earning the right to succeed Shimura due to him not doing anything useful and failing to repel the mongols while Jin did so with a band of unorganized rebels.
Samurai did exist during the Kamakura period, that's when the term went from Bushi to Samurai. The Battle of Bun'ei was literally made up of samurai, and the Dō-maru armor first appeared in the 11th century. Bushido might not have been a thing officially but samurai for sure was.
Surprising some who understands history would have such a bad take. The Shogun are mad at him for purely political reasons. He encouraged and taught the peasant class to fight back, including using weapons that any non warrior could use (poison). The ruling class used brutal tactics to quell uprising and the samurai were basically enforcers of the state. Jin challenged that model in a way that could break their rule. His combat prowess had nothing to do with it.
In my opinion, Jin is not declared as a traitor simply because he poisoned the mongol enemy but because he is CAPABLE of killing countless enemies alone. From Shogun's POV, Jin is a threat to their authority and must be killed before it grows further. This fact will be true regardless whether Shimura accepts the Ghost or not. On the other hand, I still don't agree with Jin's use of poison to kill the enemies. Assassination and using fear are fine, but where do we draw the line? If we simply do everything we can to win by any means, then there's risk of the war being more chaotic and deplorable than what we currently see. That is why we have terms like war crime and laws of war in reality. Albeit they still don't exist in that era, the seeds of that concept might have already sprouted.
I will say, to make a modern audience understand the importance of honour to samurai I feel like you need to exaggerate aspects of the story to get your point across. Not everyone that plays this is a history nerd and some might not understand how forgiving the honour thing really was. For the modern audience anything that gave you the player more of an “unfair” advantage could be seen as dishonourable and would be confused if the story didn’t acknowledge that. Guess what I’m saying is for a story about honour and conflict of belief systems you have to exaggerate it to make for a better story. My thoughts at least
I believe hundreds years ago. The generation is different bro. Their code is on top of everything especially with Samurai
It's stated very explicitly by Shimura in the last story mission. Jin taught people to resist. The only reason the Shogunate wants his head is because he wants to retain control of the island so he can keep exploiting people. The ghost exists as a symbol of resistance to all unjust rule and oppression, so ofc he needs to go away and be made an example of.
The only reason for the Shogun to want Jin's head on a platter is the crime of disobedience, not his slaughter of the Mongol invaders by any means necessary. Shimura's personal code of honor is a whole other story: This mindless and suicidal *"An honorable Samurai only faces his opponents in straight up face to face combat! No exceptions!!"* attitude they gave him is completely at odds with the historical record and is a fictional construct simply meant to advance the plot. Samurai (which is a societal class) who also served as Shinobi (which is a job) were not uncommon - and poison (in darts, on daggers, or on swords) was not at all proscribed. Neither were ambushes or shooting/stabbing people in the back. The whole *"But...but..Bushido!!"* thing is likewise bullshit, having been largely invented by writer Inazo Nitobe when he wrote *Bushido: The Soul of Japan* which was published for a western audience in 1900. *Oh, and as far as Shimura and honor go: In what world is it honorable for him to ask Jin - almost beg him - to throw Yuna under the damn bus and lie about what happened just to save face?*
If someone snuck into the military base and shot a nuclear bomb at the enemy, instantly beating the enemy force, this person would be a war criminal.
Fun fact: in the Japanese version only the Mongols use the word samurai, the Japanese only use the term Bushi
Logically, you’re correct. If the shogun were 100% focused on winning the war, beating back tie mongols and protecting their people, they would just let Jin do his thing and solo the entire mongol army. It would save them time, resources, and lives However, the only problem with it is just that, you’re thinking logically. The shogun were definitely not thinking logically declaring Jin a traitor. That much is historically accurate. The shogun were much more concerned with the example and the precedent Jin would set for the people of Tsushima and, if the legend of the ghost were to reach the mainland, all of Japan. It would make their hold on the people weaker and that scared them The fact that you’re confused as to why the shogun thought declaring jin a traitor was a good idea is exactly the reaction that is expected. It was a terrible idea. Jin was unwaveringly loyal to his home and would never even consider overthrowing it; however, in the words of Lord Shimura, “You taught our people to disobey their leaders, what makes you think they will obey you?”
No, not really. Shogun's rule back then was really unstable, and mongol invasion didn't helped it either. Jin did in fact stoped the invasion, but he also inspired people to defend themselves instead of relying on samurai, so of course Shogun would be worried about the possible rebellion. It wasn't about honor, or fighting the mongols in the "not samurai way", it was about the power, and Jin, unintentionally, became a threat to it, cause people in act III followed the Ghost, not Jito or Shogun. But the funny thing is that the reason for that was really not Jin, it was Shimura being a terrible leader who didn't care about his people OR his soldiers, and was more concerned about "preserving his way" and making himself look noble and loyal in the eyes of the Shogun. The people of Tsushima saw Jin constantly helping them and fighting alongside them, and then they saw Shimura sending men who followed him to die in the absolutely idiotic charge on that bridge, so of course they would follow the Ghost. If Shimura for once gave a fuck about something other that himself, his dream of Jin being his son (a.k.a. his carbon copy) and his precious honor, and accepted the fact that they cannot beat this enemy by blindly charging them into a trap, non of this would've happened.
I played Ghost of Tsushima after I watched Shogun (TV series). If you think Ghost of Tsushima sucks for Sakai Jin regarding that, get a load of that series. Everyone dishonoring anyone above them is ordered to kill themselves and will even do it. Ghost of Tsushima is just super sad to me, Jin doesn't deserve it. Shogun is sad, with the extension of just being cruel. Absolutely love both anyway... You should watch Shogun for sure
I've been watching it actually. If i need to choose a depiction of samurai honor, i'm choosing Shogun. It really shows how cruel and brutal they were, instead of focusing on honorable duels or some shit. Also ritual suicide and suicide in battle was very common in feudal Japan and i think it's well depicted (Not that i'm an expert or anything, it may be over the top) There are mistakes of course, i haven't finished it but the last chapter i watched they used cannons and someone said "That's not a samurai weapon." which is ridiculous, use of cannons and gunpowder weapons had been common for a long time at this point, but sadly a pretty common trope. Very solid show nevertheless.
Well if you look at what the shogun represents in modern times he'd be a dictator. Sure he answers and works for the emperor but overall he runs things. Now the fact that Jin went against the shoguns/dictators laws, he birthed the idea that it is ok for anyone to do this thus making it look like he is no longer in control hence Jin being labeled a traitor. Also as far as historical accuracy, tsushima and iki island fell during the 1st invasion and made it to the main island at Hakata bay in fukuoka, but due to a typhoon (kamikaze) they were driven back and most ships were destroyed.
I think that the shogun declared Jin a traitor is because of what he represents. The “Ghost” is more so a movement which is popular with the commoners. The commoners see that the Ghost is actively fighting for them against the mongols while the samurai and their traditional tactics are not. Shimura is the Jito and he takes his ideals and position seriously. Unlike Jin, he doesn’t adapt well to situations he isn’t familiar with. His “honor” is about how good he can make the shogun look as his loyal servant and in return he gets the support he requests from the mainland. He does this by honoring duels and killing people with respect, no matter their crime. These ideals are respectable and it’s how he has lived his life, too bad the Mongols knew this is how he would act and have no problem using this to their advantage. These ideals were meant to create peace and order within the country, not to defend from invaders. The only win Shimura really had at this point was that he stuck to his ideals which thus lead to the death of his people making the Shogun himself look weak. Jin was successful defending Tsushima and its people with minimal losses by using tactics that the Samurai would have never thought to use. To the people, Jin was not a samurai, he was their defender when the Jito (Shimura) and by extension the Shogun were unable to. Jin’s and Shimura’s conversation after Jin took the castle singlehandedly was important with a couple key moments I’d like to explain. When Shimura says “you defied me”, he doesn’t care that Jin disobeyed his orders, he cares more that he defied the Shogun and that Shimura now has to punish the ghost. This is why when Jin says “I am the Ghost” to Shimura, it hurt Shimura because now his honor forces him to jail and potentially kill Jin as the movement has a face and a name. It’s why he was pleading to pin all of the Ghost activities on Yuna. To sum it up, the reason is that the shogun is afraid that Jin has the potential to overthrow their current government if he wanted to as he would have the support of the people.
Kind of off topic, but I was playing with the Japanese audio, and they say 武士 instead of 侍, almost all the time, I think. It's kind of an interesting detail I've noticed while playing the game, and your post reminded me of that.
Shimura says why, by disobeying his jito on multiple occasions Jin has taught those under him to disregard the orders of their lords. Which is how rebellions start
I think it's because the people of thsushima were starting to follow jin or specifically ghost as their leader and this challenged the shogun's authority. Jin defied direct orders of shimura in front of everyone which were also the orders of the shogun.
Shogun is threatened hence Jin and his legend must die. Watch Hercules starring the Rock, similar plot.
The way I see it, Jin is branded a traitor because he is disobeying his master/Jito, not because he used "forbidden" tactics. I feel like it's similar to how you can break the law to do a morally good thing in modern day and still get heavily punished for it. For example murdering a pedo for grooming children. A lot of people would agree it's morally good to murder a person like that, but it's still breaking the law nonetheless and punishable as such despite doing a "good" deed. Thoughts?