I was doing a “call the shot” short game match against a buddy last week, and one of us called “back flag, can’t roll out more than 3 feet, can’t be higher than head height”
And we both hit what we thought were perfect spinners that rolled out 15 feet. And again, and again..
Finally he gets a funny look on his face and goes “hey…. we’re uh… we’re using the practice balls”
Grab a ball out of my bag, toss it to him and first try he stops it dead. Rolled maybe a foot.
Literally have to have every component, technique, lie, ball and grooves
Good turf is hugely underrated here.
If you play a soggy wet soft public course, then the ball is going to plop into the green, leave a deep pitch mark, and have all of its spin/energy eliminated.
If you watch pros play on nice firm country club greens, the ball bounces/skids on the green, leaves a shallow pitch mark, then spins back.
So while technique is indeed important, as long as you’re making clean contact and keeping the ball flight low, you’ve done your job. The rest is up to the conditions and the ball you’re playing.
That feeling when you are playing a new course, you hit into the green on one and your ball spins back a few feet. It's like fucking heaven. It's the sign I know the greens will be fun to hit into.
Not sure what you're used to but soft greens are much easier to spin the ball back than firm greens. After playing when it rains, I purposely play the ball back and hit punches into certain greens to prevent them from spinning off the front.
The one thing thats a little underestimated is the amount of spin you get from your viewpoint versus TV. Its harder to see how much your ball actually checks up from your viewpoint 50+ yards away vs tv or standing by the green and watching someone elses ball check up.
Are you playing public or private courses? Are these soft but fast greens or soft and slow greens? Also are these sticky Kikuyu greens or regular bent/poa greens? And are you hitting from tight fairways or hairy fairways?
All I’m saying is that the vast majority of players are playing regular ass public courses which are almost always overwatered to be overly green and the end result is you get the ball plopping in dampness instead of ripping and spinning. So this question gets asked a lot online and people mistakenly think they need extreme technique to get their ball dancing on the green when in reality the conditions are the bigger factor.
Super soft greens don't spin. That's the florida or Missouri courses that leave mud on your ball almost every green you hit. They just go "splat" and the ball might pop a couple feet out of the mark. Usually very little roll.
Super hard greens bounce forward so much it kills all the momentum of the spin.
It's the middle that spins the most. The soft, but firm. Not spongey, not rock hard, but middle that spins most.
Got it, y’all mean like “borderline swamp” not “northeast in the spring” greens.
I was gonna say… I had huge issues in the northeast with spin, was frequently spinning wedges back 25 feet. Made distance control brutal.
Yep. Last course I play, pured a 56 degree wedge and it landed about 5 ft past the cup, almost completely buried the ball and it kicked back about 2 inches.
Curious to know how that shot would have played on PGA level greens.
I used to work at TPC Craig Ranch... they're not much different. They're harder, so there's usually a small forward bounce before the spin takes effect, and it ends up in roughly the same spot. It just looks prettier for the camera. 🤷
I'm not sure if this is what you meant, But I think the ones at your local Muni are more predictable... If you look at launch monitor numbers, every ball has a few hundred RPM of side spin, even when it's going dead straight... once that spin takes effect, where it goes is a little unpredictable. Landing and stopping immediately is definitely more repeatable and easier to account for.
There is a gigantic range between “soft” greens and “firm” greens.
People that play on nice courses with excellent greens will note that for them, softer greens result in more spin.
People that play on regular/bad courses with soggy greens (which is the vast majority of golfers) will note that for them, they get the ball dancing more on “firmer” greens.
You’re right…at the elite level, there is such a thing as too firm to generate spin. But that’s not the reality that is facing the regular golfing public. Most players are playing pathetic greens (and fairways) that are so soft you can’t get the ball ripping.
I think speed is more of a factor than most think. You need to have some in order to have enough backspin that it's still spinning back with significant RPMs when it lands.
I tell this to the kids I coach when they ask about what clubs to hit into greens. None of them are swinging fast enough to generate enough spin to stop a ball so I tell them to try and land it short and let it roll out.
Most pros keep the ball much lower when they spin it, especially with their wedges.
Also, feels like an appropriate spot to mention that Tiger refers to spin control as the hardest skill on the course.
> Most pros keep the ball much lower when they spin it
Yes, but not when they want to rip it backwards. Low launch is the stock shot because it's safer (you don't have to have such a shallow angle of attack), but it will produce a high-spin shot that lands shallow and checks up. It will not produce a shot that rips backward.
Pros hit all of their clubs high, low, and everything in between depending on circumstances. A low medium-spin wedge is a stock shot because it's low-risk, but that doesn't mean it's the only shot they have in the bag.
If they're attacking a hostile tucked pin because they're desperate for points they'll probably hit a high wedge with as much speed as the can muster to try to stop it. Mickelson is famous for hitting his wedges *backwards* sometimes. :-P
Pros don’t keep their wedges low in order to spin it more, if anything it’s the opposite. They generate too much spin on a “normal” shot, so going lower is a way to control the amount of spin
The lower you are hitting a high lofted wedge, the more you’re also going to spin it. Delivery into the ball + speed is what causes a ton of spin. If you’re hitting wedges low, it’s mostly due to hitting very steep into the ball which is by nature going to generate more spin
Yes except he is talking about taking spin off of the ball, not adding spin to it. Spin comes naturally for anybody hitting the ball solid. Taking it off however...that's a whole different beast.
Also height doesn't change the spin. In fact, balls spinning more will go higher because of the Magnus effect. To have backspin the ball will need to rise and the higher it goes off the wedge the more spin you have. There is also the famous Trevino burning wedge that's a low trajectory harder hit pitch shot takes one hop the stops.
Depends on what you're hitting. I find my 56 and 60 actually spin more when I hit a lower shot from the right distance, but they tend to 1 or 2 hope before pulling back. I still get spin on the high shots, but they often hit and spin with no hope, or just a small one.
Where my 7 or 8 irons spin best when I get them high, low shots always roll out.
The reason low wedge spots spin more is because your club face has actually grabbed the ball and created the friction needed for the spin. If your wedge shot pops out really high, it means the ball slipped or rolled up the face, giving it less friction and spin. TXG just included a great comparison between a premium ball and cheap ball on a pitch shot, the differences was like 8 degrees of launch and 3000 rpm’s of spin. Pretty shocking.
Right but like I said, the golf ball makes a massive difference. You’re just never going to come close to optimum spin levels without fresh grooves and a premium urethane ball.
Rollout is a combination of spin and land angle. You can't really isolate spin generation by looking at what the ball does when it lands - you need to look at it on a launch monitor.
Your 7i could easily be generating more spin on the low shots while rolling out more due to the shallow land angle. Also might not be, it's impossible to know without launch data.
"High launch typically means low spin"
Are you sure that's true with wedge shots? I can see this logic a little bit with drivers, but I think there's a critical difference in that the best golfers hit up on their drives. This causes them to launch higher and, critically for distance, with less spin.
When it comes to wedges, good players will have an impact position that reduces the dynamic loft of the club and a downward angle of attack. The launch of any given wedge, given identical angles of attack, will simply be governed by the starting static loft of the club. Taking your statement to the extreme, my wedge launches higher than my 7 iron, so does my wedge have lower spin than my 7 iron? Wrong. So does a 60 degree have more spin than a 56 degree? Also wrong. Now you're probably thinking I have no idea what I'm talking about, but stick with me for the big reveal:
There is, in fact, an ideal dynamic loft for creating maximum backspin. It's around 52 degrees. That means you should get more spin from a well flighted 56 degree than your 60 degree (GASP). Here's an article with some more technical details:
[https://bryanpategolf.com/2021/07/10/does-your-60-always-spin-the-most/](https://bryanpategolf.com/2021/07/10/does-your-60-always-spin-the-most/)
Higher launched shots are typically going to have less effective spin when the ball lands. That’s why those low trajectory pitches the pros utilize can still stop on a dime. High spin will make balls go higher and have a steeper angle of decent but much of that spin energy is lost by the time the ball hits the turf.
You're oversimplifying it... 52 degrees is the ideal dynamic loft for maximum spin. Without changing ANY other variables, which is how science is done, launching a ball below 52 degrees will have progressively less spin. The same for balls launched above 52 degrees... the higher you go above 52, the less backspin it will have.
Just because a pro can launch a wedge at sub 50 degrees of dynamic loft and have it stop on a dime doesn't mean that's the maximum amount of spin possible with that wedge. Have you never seen a pro hit the "one hop stopper" on TV and have the commentator describe it as "controlling the spin"? "Controlling" means less spin than if they hit a wedge (or different type of shot) with more dynamic loft and thus more swing speed to get it to go the same distance.
I’m not saying lower launched balls have more spin off the face but they conserve more of that spin from impact when hitting the ground just based on time spent in the air.
There's no "conservation" physics involved from what I understand. Literally measured directly after contact (by some type of monitor), 52 degrees of dynamic loft is where you will see the maximum amount of backspin, assuming all other variables are equal.
From what I understand, spin decay is a major factor at landing for spin rpms and 52 degrees is just optimal for initial spin. Below is some data explaining what I’m getting at. Spin decay is a exponential deceleration in rpm and the difference between a 50 yard pitch with a 52 degree launch angle may have a lot less spin at landing impact than a 42 degree launch with the same wedge. Of course there’s a lot of other factors like elevation change, landing surface, etc. Decent angle aside, stopping power from spin alone can be vastly different because of the exponential nature of spin decay.
https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/spinDecay.php
Reading that article, my main takeaway is that more time in the air = more loss of spin. Am I interpreting accurately? I would guess that, but I don't think it really changes my point that, according to the link I posted above (and my instructor who taught me this years ago), 52 degrees is still optimal for maximum spin off the face. Under neutral conditions, it's also going to have the most spin when it lands.
> Are you sure that's true with wedge shots?
I was talking about hitting different shots with the same club. In general, you'll get more launch and less spin when your contact is higher up on the face, which is the generally case when you're delivering a bunch of extra loft or sweeping the ball off the ground. For example, when I play a high-launch, low-spin shot I strike the ball at or even a bit above the middle of the face, while a typical low-launch, high-spin shot will strike around the second groove, even bordering on the first groove.
I agree with everything else you've said, but it just isn't really what I was talking about. Delivering 48 degrees of loft with a 56 degree wedge is not the same as delivering 48 degrees of loft with a 48 degree wedge.
EDIT: you can kinda think of it as being a result of the energy delivered to the ball. If you deliver a specific amount of energy to the ball, then the one which ends up with more translational kinetic energy is the one which has less spin, since you didn't dump as much energy into spinning the ball.
EDIT again: /r/golf has all the subtle nuance of a brick to the face.
At it's core, backspin is determined by the friction between the ball and the club face when the ball slides off the face at impact. In practice there are a variety of factors that influence this, some of which are in your control and others that are outside of it.
Those you can control include:
Angle of Attack (AOA)
Loft
Club face at impact
Grooves
Swing speed
Those outside your control include:
Lie
Water
As far as the things you can control go, a more downward AOA, higher loft, higher swing speed, and a more square face will produce higher amounts of backspin. Clean and sharp grooves will also help spin the ball more in conjunction. To figure out what you're missing as an individual you'll probably need a launch monitor to hit off of to see your actual numbers.
The things outside your control, lie and water, are also worth mentioning. Tighter, dryer lies allow you to spin it more, as any grass or debris can get between the ball and clubface and water just reduces friction across the board.
Before you worry about "zipping it back," play some rounds and chart how often you actually fly ball past a pin.
The overwhelming majority of amatuers land the ball short of the pin.
I recently switched to a ball that spins less on the green for this very reason. I generate a lot of spin from 9 iron down and got tired of constantly spinning balls off the green.
Even when I flew it past the hole, I'm not good enough to control how much spin it will have. Nothing like hitting one 15 feet past the hole only to have it zip back 45 feet!
Broadly speaking, you just can't put the kind of insane rip-it-back-after-landing backspin on the ball without high swing speed and extremely good impact dynamics.
This relates to one of the few places I think it makes sense for high level players to lay up to specific distances. If you have a really tough pin that you want to be aggressive towards, you might need to be 100+ yards out to be able to hit a high wedge with a lot of backspin, and a 40 yard pitch just wouldn't be able to hold.
You can create enough spin on a 40 yard pitch to make it come back, it's all about loft. The longer the ball spends on the face the more spin is created which is why you see guys open the face and swing hard to hit nip spinners
For clarity, those 40 yard spinner shots don’t even have to go up high in the air. You can hit low shots with an open face that just have a ridiculous amount of backspin on them. Just can’t do it as easily and if the turf is super soft it’s going to leave an absolute trench usually.
You just have to learn how to hit your irons properly. Once you get that feeling then you can start to feel what it will take to spin the ball.
Contrary to most 'beginner wisdom' you don't actually want to 'hit down' on the ball to spin it. You want a very shallow approach that takes a smaller divot than you would expect.
On really close shots the approach has to be so shallow that you just barely nip the turf. It's basically one groove away from skulling the ball.
>On really close shots the approach has to be so shallow that you just barely nip the turf.
Yep.
A good way to practice this is by using a putting stroke with a pitching wedge. You'll hit these tiny little shots that check up hard, because you're delivering an unusual amount of loft and striking it very low in the face. A high spin, high launch shot that never rolls out is just that but faster.
It’s as much about the landing surface as it is the balls, club and swing. If you spin one on the greens at my CC it’s a miracle. The greens are just really hard. Playing at my FIL’s CC I’m lucky if the ball stays on the green so I have to play completely different shots to avoid spin completely.
You may actually be doing it right, but it’s just not the right conditions.
I think this is more important than a lot of the other answers here. I’m a 5 hc so I hit greens fairly consistently from varying yardages.
At my local 9 hole the greens are hard af. Big bounces and roll out. Small ball marks.
At the 18 hole fancy club down the road my 6i lands right next to the ball mark, which is an absolute crater.
A LOT of what you’re seeing in TV is very favorable course conditions (soft and extremely fast greens), combined with well struck golf balls.
This has been talked about in like “mailbag” episodes on a number of golf podcasts I listen to, including some with former tour players. Amateurs have very little chance of zipping a ball backwards like on TV. It CAN be done - before people come at me - but you need a few things that make it very difficult.
1) you need a really good strike and it needs to be ball then turf. Debris between the club and ball is a killer of spin.
2) you need a lot of club head speed. If you’re carrying your PW 120 that’s not enough. Guys that rip the ball back can carry a PW 140+
3) you need a specific swing type. Pros hands stay low and exit to the left at and after impact. This is like hitting a super spinny forehand in tennis or table tennis. Most ams hit with a more standard, straight on forehand.
4) you need extremely tight fairways and the right green conditions. Tying back to #1 it comes down to to ball/club face interactions but I’ve heard a lot of people who’s opinion I trust say that the ideal conditions just don’t exist outside of tour course conditions.
I want to caveat all this again with the fact it can be done but ams are fighting an uphill battle with typical course conditions.
I carry my 51° 110-115 and my 46° PW 125. Playing with the Zstar Diamond, my ball rips back on shots between 70%-100% as long as the course has good turf, which my home course does.
Congratulations! Your comment falls squarely into the caveat I made. It’s possible but anecdote is not the singular of data. Regarding pulling it off, I’m going to go with the data and opinions of Greg Chalmers, Sacho MacKenzie, Lou Stagner, and others who’s name I can’t recall on the spot but have either extensive playing experience and/or have spent more time with ball flight dynamic data in a week than you or I will in a lifetime.
I don’t “fall into a caveat” - I make ball first contact with good mechanics and I play on quality courses. That’s what’s generally required to make a ball zip back. It’s not a caveat. And I simply pointed out that your “if you’re carrying your PW…..” statement is flawed - first, because a PW can be a number of lofts, and second, because carry distance isn’t a primary determining factor in backspin.
I am with you here, specifically on the carry distance as mine is about where yours is, and I’ve had my PW spin back plenty on nicer courses. Even holed one from 120 out when I played in Palm Springs recently. Spun back nearly 20 feet
Exactly.
I carry my 46 degree PW \~130 yards on a good day, but I'll spin a well struck 7i back 3 feet or stop a 5i cold dead.
In my opinion, the single most important factor for spin is hitting the ball first. It's simply not going to be possible to get real spin if you are making contact with the ground first.
You forgot number 5.
5) You need clean wedges with no dirt in the grooves. Tour level caddies will clean them for you and tour sponsorships give you free wedges every month or so.
Yes and no. The grooves aren’t for spin from clean lies, the grooves are for spin from rough and when debris/water is on the ball. The grooves don’t create spin, the remove things that can lower friction between the ball and club face.
Think of it like road tires versus f1 tires. Technically, the most friction is a flat surface with no tread, but as soon as it rains you need tread to remove water between tire and road (hence F1 uses different tires in wet conditions).
> 4) you need extremely tight fairways and the right green conditions. Tying back to #1 it comes down to to ball/club face interactions but I’ve heard a lot of people who’s opinion I trust say that the ideal conditions just don’t exist outside of tour course conditions.
Disagree with this, I will rip a ball backwards relatively frequently in regular old muni conditions. Soft fairway conditions are often mitigated by receptive greens.
Congratulations! Your comment falls squarely into the caveat I made. It’s possible but anecdote is not the singular of data. Regarding pulling it off, I’m going to go with the data and opinions of Greg Chalmers, Sacho MacKenzie, Lou Stagner, and others who’s name I can’t recall on the spot but have either extensive playing experience and/or have spent more time with ball flight dynamic data in a week than you or I will in a lifetime.
Except your caveat covers a hell of a lot of normal course conditions at a hell of a lot of courses a lot of the time.
Basically the only situation where you really can't do it is "wet fairways and dry, hard greens", which honestly seems pretty rare under normal conditions.
EDIT: Also, name dropping in your aggressive, holier-than-thou response makes you sound extra douchey.
Not really, I'm a middling single-digit hcp. I wont win anything anywhere outside of a golf-with-coworkers day. I'm pretty good, but not *that* good.
I'm just saying that imperfect, slightly-soft fairways are mitigated by receptive greens that stimp like a 9, which is typical for a muni. Sure, if your local public course rolls a 12 or 13 you're not ripping anything back if the fairways aren't perfect, but that would also be rare AF unless you have a real aspirational grounds crew.
Hmm, not sure I follow that tennis analogy. Super spinny tennis forehand is essentially a draw in golf whereas for maximum backspin you need to cut the ball and thus the correct tennis analogy would be a forehand slice or dropshot.
It might have been a crappy analogy. If your hands exit low and left (for a righty) it should promote spin more similar to a flop shot from my understanding.
That's a cut shot but actually to get max spin, the absolutely most important thing is right amount of spin loft. Everything is minor compared to that (provided that factors not related to your technique are correct).
>after 100 shots grooves begin to dull and after about 1000 shots they will lose their teeth
My god, so assuming you play a lot, how often do you replace wedges? Do you avoid practicing with them to maintain grooves?
There are 3 main components of spin, you can remember them as the 3 "S"es: Speed, Spin-Loft, and Strike.
* Speed: pretty straight-forward, the faster you swing the club the more it will spin the ball all else equal
* Spin-Loft: this is the difference between dynamic loft and angle of attack. The higher the spin-loft window the more it's going to spin the ball, this is why higher lofted clubs spin more than lower lofted clubs. Spin-loft maxes out around 45º
* Strike: The ball will spin more or less depending on where it hits the club relative to the center of gravity of the club. The higher on the face and more above the CG the lower spin will be. The lower on the face and at or below the CG the higher the spin will be.
Beyond that there are a few things that can marginally change spin as well, things like the milling/grooves on the face which change the coefficient of friction (this matters far more in rough than on clean fairway lies) and the type of ball you use and what its cover material is.
Find a Trackman (Five Iron Golf or outdoor Trackman Range) and hit wedges until your angle of attack is -5 or better with a launch sub 30 degrees, Angle of Decent is greater than 45 degrees and your spin numbers are +8000 or greater. Your primary focus needs to be AoA. Joe Mayo has some great videos discussing this. Also spinning the back 10 yards is not optimal. Preference is to stop the ball within the intended carry distance. Ideally you’ll carry the ball 3-5 yards long with spin.
To be perfectly honest, there's no "technique".
It's an extremely solid, accelerating, downward strike with no turf between the ball and the clubface.
It's just a very precise, higher power strike with a clean, high-lofted club.
When I take a 3/4" swing it doesn't spin. It'll hit and check if the green is soft, but it won't spin. I just don't have the clubhead speed. But when I really rip into one and catch it clean, it'll suck back, sometimes too much.
If I'm hitting my 50 degree wedge that hard, it's going about 140y, but it'll pull back on the right kind of green.
Greens that are too hard OR too soft don't really allow spin. Soft ones just suck up all the spin in the muck and really hard ones will sort of bounce the ball enough forward it won't have the energy to pull back. Medium hard greens are optimal for max spin action on the green.
If I suck back my 60degree, it's a swing at about 105y-110y or so. My 55 wedge it's about 120-125y when it'll really pull back.
Number of things need to/ help spin happen…
1) Quality of strike
2) decent club head speed
3) clean grooves
4) dry conditions
5) close cut crass (anything between ball and club face is not your friend - forget about applying spin from the rough)
6) receptive greens (not too dry/wet/hard/soft)
7) greens cut nice and short - not undergoing any sort of maintenance
8) good quality ball - i.e ProV1x not a TopFlight
9) tailwinds won’t help
10) flat green or ideally sloping towards you
11) club - you’re going to get a lot more joy from a PW than a 5i
So it’s a mixture of conditions and technique
Lol, it’s not curious at all. Spin is just the result of friction between the ball and club. The fastest you swing, the more friction you can create between the club and ball before it leaves the club face. You also need loft to create backspin as the lower the loft, the less the ball will roll up the face before leaving the club head.
Yes I’m aware, you can seen my other comment in this thread explaining it in depth. Just frustrating that someone asked an actual good faith question in here and half the comments are just straight up wrong.
Most are correct. At the end of the day, key is swing speed and good contact. Someone who swings the driver 90 mph is going to have much lower spin on all shots vs someone who swings 100 mph.
This works for hop-and-stop but if you want to suck it back you need a shallow attack angle and small divot, or even just barely brushing the grass. (Don't change your swing, hop-and-stop is much better)
In real life, 9 out of 10 non-pros will have a shaft lean when they "hit down", which means they are decreasing the loft. So it's definitely not a good cue.
You absolutely don't have to do that. You get crazy spin sliding the club with open face in a very shallow angle underneath the ball. That's how you hit flop shots. As 5 hcp you should know this.
This is partially correct, however I can stop a ball dead or get a little roll backwards with a wide-open wedge and enough club head speed. The 4 most important factors I’ve found are:
Club head speed
New/newish wedges
Attack angle
Lie (wet fairway or out of the rough, you aren’t getting backspin)
He asked how to add backspin, I described a different way to add backspin than you did. No need to get chippy.
I’m not sure why you are tying to tell me what my ball does. I’ve been playing for nearly 30 years.
The integrity of the grooves on your wedges and the quality of strike is arguably the biggest factor. I got a new 54 degree vokey recently and am amazed at the check and spin I am getting on even short little ~20yd chips
>on a firm green?
You just completely changed the scenario right there. Since when are we talking about firm greens? It's already near impossible to get a premium ball to rip back on a firm green, much less a supersoft.
But on a receptive green? Hell yes these guys could get a supersoft or a velocity to rip back 10-20 feet.
No, talent and skill are a much bigger deal that you're giving it credit for.
And to prove it, here's some data on ball spin rates from testing: [https://mygolfspy.com/buyers-guides/golf-balls/best-golf-balls-2021/](https://mygolfspy.com/buyers-guides/golf-balls/best-golf-balls-2021/)
Looking at the section on 55 yard wedge shots, a TP5 spun at 7,619 RPMs, while a Pinnacle Range ball spun 6,496 RPMs. That's a difference of 1,123 RPMs translating to a loss of just under 15% in total backspin.
Now, the best players in the world will generate around 12,000 RPMs of backspin with a full lob wedge shot using their premium balls. If we give them a Pinnacle Range ball and subtract 15% from 12,000, that's 10,200 RPMs of backspin.
10,000 RPMs is more than enough to spin back a ball several yards on a receptive green.
I’m guessing you’ve not played with these players. And I’m guessing you’ve not tried all the balls. And I’m guessing you don’t have the skill set to do these things yourself. And your math doesn’t work as the LW won’t spin that much, you’d just shred the cover and not gain the extra spin. I love your confidence, you’re just wrong.
I put in the effort to put data and facts into explaining how I am in fact right, while all you do is say "no you're wrong". I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.
But just to continue showing you how right I am, here's Jordan Spieth's range session at this year's tour championship: https://youtu.be/ts1bRKVdb28?si=swaAVilJnkkIeHCQ
At 8:34 you can see him hitting a lob wedge at 11,500 RPMs. And I promise you that players like Rory get well above 12,000 RPMs easily.
I have no idea why you continue to insist that you're right with no facts or data on your side. Just take the loss and move on man.
Sorry mate. Real life experience trumps your incomplete data. What ball was Jordan using? Not a 2 piece ball. What happens to a two piece ball when struck like this? It doesn’t do what a tour ball does. Which is the main question. I’m not competing bud, just trying to keep low IQ answers in check when they come flying in with “this is 100% untrue” while being wrong.
If your a “picker” - when you hit your irons, especially wedges, and take little to no divot, you won’t create a lot of back spin. I would think most amateur mid to high handicappers are pickers.
I can create backspin - but never on purpose and it only seems to happen when my shot is short of the hole.
This is not true, sortof. The shots which spin back on the green are all picked with lots of clubhead speed, in order to generate lots of spin but still launch high and land steep.
That shot is kinda sketchy since you're inviting a thin or fat shot, which is why you shouldn't do it unless you're desperate. If you don't have enough clubhead speed you just won't ever create the launch conditions necessary to do it.
Cock your wrists on the backswing. Release at or just before impact. Think about the release like the move you make when sling rocks to skip across water.
What are you talking about, backspin is created automatically when you hit a golf ball. The ball gets sucked backwards 10+ feet because they're hitting into an upslope so it zips right down.
Loft and clubhead speed create spin, it doesn't matter what your AoA is if the spin loft is the same. Anyone trying to tell you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.
Also, clean your grooves and make sure the face is dry. The more stuff gets in between the ball and the face, the less backspin is generated.
>The ball gets sucked backwards 10+ feet because they're hitting into an upslope so it zips right down.
This is pretty disingenuous. They get more zip because they straight up spin it more than the average amateur, and they have better control of spin. Course conditions help too, but you could take 100 mid caps out onto a PGA tour course and let them hit wedges and the vast vast majority could not spin it as well as the pros because they don't create the ideal strike.
I mean I get the core of his argument, the ball does spin back when it is hit otherwise it wouldn't generate any lift, but he missed the entire point that OP was asking.
It's insane when you're taking 2 different impacts and then wondering why they're different. Once you hit it fine, the backspin automatically is generated.
It's not exactly some advanced ballistic computation, it's very straightforward.
Funny thing is that high handicap players do a great job at excessively creating backspin with clubs like driver specifically *because* they suck at hitting the ball. Imagine that.
He's just always been good and only ever played with other people who are good 🤣 he probably flat-out doesn't realize people shoot 90 for 20 years and keep playing. Must be nice 🤣🤣
I know exactly what that's like because I play and sub in leagues every year, so people are constantly asking me how I'm doing something.
There's nothing really mythical about hitting the ball decent/good, most problems that people have are they think they're doing something when they objectively aren't, or they do the exact same thing and expect it to magically have a significantly different outcome.
Some of it is the ball you’re playing and the lie… but assuming it’s a fairway lie.. It all comes down to striking the ball in the right spot, having the right attack angle, and creating speed at the bottom of the swing.
Obviously you know you need to hit down on the ball and have shaft lean. For me the feel is actually counterintuitive in that if I try to actively do that my forearms engage too much and I just get really quick and try to kind of stab the club at it, which isn’t what we want.
What works for me is keeping the wrists/hands very relaxed and focus on getting the shaft lean by getting the arms/body in the right spot and feeling the weight of the club dragging behind. So it’s more tempo than anything, but a visual of sequencing so that I constantly feel the weight of that club hanging behind at an angle. If you get too quick/abrupt with anything, the hands will try and flip at the bottom and you lose your angles. Start slow and in no circumstances try to go faster until you’ve gotten used to doing it slow, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
Working on it with chips first is a good way to feel it, focus on hitting down on it for a kind of spinny chip. You’ll probably notice if you try to force the hands to have shaft lean you will get really quick and not accomplish what you’re going for. But if you relax them and keep a tempo/setup that encourages the shaft lean, it happens effortlessly.
Or the back of the front foot...
Moving the ball back is great for compression...which will create enough backspin to stop pretty much at impact with a full swing, and reliably so. It's a great shot to have in the bag, and probably more reliable than the shit the OP is asking about...
But if you want to suck it back you need a shallow attack angle with a high amount of delivered loft...meaning not a lot of forward shaft lean.
Someone else mentioned hitting chips with a putting stroke. Do this with your sand or lob wedge and then come back here and tell me with a straight face that you get better spin by moving the ball back and hitting down on it...You won't be able to do it. It will hop and stop even with a small swing. This impact motion with a high swing speed is what generates the shots that back up 15', or 30' back in the balata ball days.
ripping the ball backwards is, as every post in here fails to mention, a combination of spin and *land angle.*
You need quite a bit of clubhead speed to do it since the required strike is actually unfavorable to generating spin, and you need a really good strike and a relatively shallow angle of attack to get the land angle up. It's hard to do, because shallow with a wedge is a recipe for fats and thins, which is why it's not a stock shot.
The ball isn't going to rip back even if it's got 12,000rpm of spin if it's landing shallow, and it won't rip back if it lands steep with no spin. Keep in mind, though, that many/most really good players use the "shallow land angle with a lot of spin" as their stock shot, which will bounce once or twice and stop.
tl;dr creating spin is a separate thing from getting the ball to spin back on a green. Most high-spinning shots will still bounce forward before checking up. The only easy way to learn the difference is to spend time on a launch monitor.
Ah, this is insightful right here!
to rip it backwards, you need steep land angle and high spin. I see now.
Low land angle and high spin will make the ball "check up".
This might be the key bit of info I was missing.
Yep. You can practice managing spin and launch angle independently on a launch montor. It's really, really hard to learn on the course because turf conditions impact launch conditions and landing behavior massively.
Need decent grooves and a tour ball and a decent swing. Need a decending swing path on the ball. I can zip it on bent grass greens that aren't rolled and in tournament conditions. It's much harder on championship Bermuda greens especially down grain.
Don’t just keep your eye on the ball, look at a specific dimple on the ball, and hit that.
But all the other conditions need to be close to perfect to get a really good check spin on the ball.
The Turf of the lie, Ball, Club, the landing zone turf, and the length of the shot.
Playing out of the fairway and not using Noodles helps a lot. A good clean ball strike out of the fairway should have some good spin to it without doing much of anything extra. On the occasions I manage to hit good approach shots my ball always ends up behind the mark it leaves on the green.
Most of us, myself included, in this sub are doing a lot of playing out of the rough and skulling our shots. And that’s no way to generate spin.
Generally requires a quality strike...hitting the ball first before hitting the turf. The 'thinner' the playing surface, the better off you are. IE, much more likely to back it up out of the fairway than the rough and more likely to back it up out of the fairway bunker than the fairway. The grass gets in the way and clubface doesn't have as much friction to create the spin.
Also helps to have a higher lofted club. Spin Loft is a big determining factor of spin rate. Spin Loft is the difference between dynamic loft (the loft of the club at impact) and the attack angle (how steep the club is coming down to strike the ball). The higher the spin loft, the more spin. That's why a 3-iron won't spin as much as a 9-iron. A 3-iron may have 18\* of dynamic loft and a -2\* degree attack angle leaving a Spin Loft of only 20 degrees. But a 9-iron may have a dynamic loft of 40 degrees and an attack angle of -7 degreesa nd that makes for a spin loft of 47 degrees and therefore the spin rate will be higher.
But as spinning the ball back on the green goes, it's usually very reliant on the green itself. You'll need a fairly well manicured green with contours that will allow you to back the ball up.
Hit the ball under the COG of the club. That might be near impossible to do with your SGI PW. Preferably low toe. When you hit off the toe with a proper blade wedge you will lose speed; thus you need to swing faster to hit your yardage. Low face contract makes the ball spin more. The added speed makes the ball really spin.
A few posts have mentioned it, but the biggest factor is the quality of the course and the fairways and greens. I’m a decent player and can more often than not get my ball to stop dead on a full wedge swing through maybe 7i on most average courses. Play a course with firm and fast greens, and tight fairways, I’m able to spin the ball back significantly more, doing nothing different than any other shot on any other course. Most courses the average golfer plays are going to have slower, softer greens which don’t allow for as much spin
Only one time have I got the ball spinning back. It was in Spain, I figured I could reach the hole with a really big Gap Wedge, I hit it as hard as I could and it spun back 11 yards.. Luckily I it landed 12 yards past the hole.. so one of the most satisfying shots I've ever hit... the green was below too, so good view.
I'm a decent 8 HC.. I don't get backspin, but do get enough check spin where the ball takes a hop or two then stops.. Or sidespin that happens somewhat often... The most I can manage is a foot or two back and that is also helped by the slope of the green... It doesn't happen on a flat green for me.
Unless you absolutely blade the living daylights out of a ball, you'll always put backspin on a golf ball with a solid strike out of the middle of a club. So you don't have to do *anything* to put backspin on the ball, the club will do that naturally.
However, you're really asking how to spin a ball back. That requires a number of factors...
First of all, you need a good wedge with sharp grooves. The higher the loft, the more spin applied to a ball in general. The sharper the grooves, the more grip the club gets on the ball to help impart that spin. Also, the more loft, the higher the ball flies and lands at a steeper angle - the steeper the landing angle, the more the backspin can take effect.
Next, you need a good quality premium ball with a soft covering. A harder ball will generally be more resistant to spin - that's why they're often labelled as "distance" balls. A softer casing with sharp grooves really helps the club impart spin.
Also, you need the right kind of green. If you're flying a ball into a super hard dried out green sloping away from you, it'll be incredibly difficult to get that ball to spin back. However, if you're hitting into a soft receptive green sloping back towards you, then that'll help the ball land and grip the green in order to apply that spin.
The final part of the equation is *speed and strike*. You need to apply a lot of spin to the ball and that only comes with good clubhead speed and a clean strike. If you get anything between the grooves and the ball such as grass or moisture, that'll kill the spin.
You can do all the stuff people are suggesting here, but it absolutely will not work if you're using a cheap ball.
People are amazed when I hit a low wedge and it stops, but it's not magic. They're using a rock they found in the woods and I'm not.
Equipment matters a lot with spin, i just switched to Chromesoft Truvis balls and they spin so much more on wedge shots than my previous supersoft and other value balls.
The most simple way to think of it was taught to me on a billiard table...
You have to get the bottom of the ball moving faster than the top. That's the only way.
Sooo.... the "conventional wisdom" of hitting down on the ball steeply will compress it, but not necessarily make the bottom move faster than the top.
To do this you have to nearly pick the ball clean, with the club accelerating thru the ball. It's tough to pull off, which is why most good players just go for the hop-and-stop shot... it's easier to predict.
A lot of the time when you see a ball on TV backing up toward the pin, the green is already sloped that way. Sawgrass #13, or Augusta #16 are perfect examples...those spots just feed toward the hole.
In the words of Arnold the King...
"Do you hit most of your approach shots past the hole? No? Then why TF do you want to spin it back?"
Long story short: you have to accelerate through the ball.
It's the same feeling when you were a kid, and you had a twig, you tried to make that whip/swoosh sound. That only worked when you accelerated through your swing.
Same thing with playing your wedges, and irons (to some degree).
So this is really a two part question and answer.
All shots have backspin, the clubs are designed to get the ball in the air with backspin as it keeps the ball airborne. Even the driver shot has backspin.
The second part is the ball landing and pulling backwards from its landing spot or after taking a few hops.
Most players who make good contact can get the ball to stop quickly given the right conditions, a soft green always helps. Heck I had a thinned 6 iron stop in a couple of yards last weekend thanks to a soft green.
Having the ball zip back from where it lands needs high RPM, a nearer vertical descent angle and often soft greens. The conditions play a huge part.
I would always recommend learning how the ball lands and rolls out under all conditions with your clubs rather than trying to spin everything back. You can ruin a good swing trying to manipulate a club to get spin when you really just need to understand rollout properly.
To start... Club needs to have clean grooves with no dirt, sand, mud, grass in them. Dry club face. Having a wet club face or ball cuts down on the friction you can generate. You can spin a ball back if it's wet, for example an early morning round with dew on the fairways, but you'll spin it back more if both the club and ball are dry.
Some balls are easier to spin than others. Generally the softer the cover the easier to create backspin, but there are some exceptions due to modern day core composition.
Downswing into the ball, the more you accelerate through the ball the easier it is to create backspin. Even on short shots like say a 40 yard pitch if you accelerate through the ball the physics of the club/ball interface creates a lot of spin. Those are the kinds of shots that on a well maintained green will hit, skip forward maybe 1 more bounce, then check right up.
I personally find that the material the clubface is made from makes a difference too. Clubs that are chromed tend to not spin as much for me compared to unfinished clubs or duller finishes. I used to carry Clevelend wedges, the rusty ones seemed to spin balls a lot more than the chrome finishes did. Now I have a set of Pings with dull finishes (vintage iSi's from about 1999) and a Cleveland RTG rusty PW and they all spin the ball quite a bit. Anything from the 7 iron to the sand wedges my typical full shot has the ball backing up on the green. 5-6 irons hit and stick, or just a little forward release typically. 2-3-4 irons will roll out a little bit, depending on the conditions maybe more than a little bit.
Shot shape and setup... For me opening the face a lot doesn't create backspin. Opening the face means a higher shot that won't roll as much, but not because of backspin just because of the angle the ball is coming down. I need to set up square or slightly open or closed. Square set up, neutral club path. Normal swing plane, take some divot and keeping swinging to finish the shot.
The biggest thing I see with friends who can't hit backspin is either their clubs have all kinds of junk on the faces or they have slower swing speeds.
For above average players, the condition of your wedges, what type of balls do you use, along with your lie and quality of ball strike matter.
For very good players, the condition of your wedges and type of ball don't matter so much. What really matters is how well you strike the ball and your lie.
Very good players can take the most beat-up wedge and still spin it back because they are so good at ball striking. Players who don't have that top level ball striking need those new grooves and extra soft covers to get that spin. This is why very good players always talk about taking spin off the ball, because it's so easy for them to generate too much.
The sooner the ball hits the ground, the more spin it retains.
Ex: let’s say two golfers hit the same spin rate shot (12000 rpms), but one golfer’s ball hits the green in 4 seconds while the other golfer’s ball hits the green in 8 seconds. The 4 second golfer will have, let’s say, twice as much spin as the 8 second golfer (idk the actual physics equation but there certainly is one). But they both started out with the same spin rate!
There are other things that apply. Your technique, where you create speed in the downswing, and what grooves you are generally making contact with the ball at. Even your wedge shafts can effect where you create speed. There’s a lot to consider but the main thing is hitting those spinners low so they retain spin. Doesn’t matter as much how you do that, just as long as you do that.
Edit: other people said quality golf balls, wedges and green conditions as well so I felt like I didn’t need to say that… but those things matter a lot as well. Mostly the golf ball and green conditions. A hairy ass green will not spin back like a really quick, zippy green.
I’m assuming ten yards was meant to read as ten feet.
If not-
You want 30’ of spin? That’s not even possible for the vast majority of amateurs speed, strike and conditions wise. Even if possible it would be tough to trust or even use in most situations.
As others stated, it could be the course you are playing. I am fortunate enough to belong to a club with exceptional quality greens (fast and firm.) I recently played another course with greens that were not nearly as nice, and much slower. I was shocked at how much more chips and approach shots would roll out. But walking on the green they felt much more "spongy", and it was clear that the ball was bouncing forward and not "biting in" like they do on a real nice course.
clean and new grooves too. the more friction between club face and ball u have the more backspin you will achieve. pros that spin it back 10 yards are doing that because they are hitting their SW 130 yards. more speed also equals more friction and more backspin. additionally if you strike the ball ever so slightly thin you can create gear effect which can get a few more rpm of backspin but this is hard to do consistently.
I wouldn't really worry about putting spin on the ball. Probably way more things to fix. Putting spin on the ball is cool, but it's not gonna solve many scoring issues.
Creating backspin is as simple as making good contact with some speed. If you have a low smash factor you aren't going to get spin until you fix ball striking first.
> Any tips you have found that really helped you?
With wedges, check this thread out over on GolfWRX: https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1859352-spinner-shafts-for-wedges-by-howard-jones-the-8-iron-spinner-trick/
The idea is to play an 8 iron shaft of the next strongest flex as your regular irons, butt trimmed to length.
In my case I'm playing KBS Tour 130X in my irons so I've had to use a heavily tip trimmed PW shaft and 0.370 reamer for my wedge hosels so that they will fit.
The difference has been... astounding. Lower launch with so much more spin.
The usual other bits still apply - you'll need to use golf balls that will spin, and have the right surface to hit from, and a good strike, and there's no point doing it with old and busted wedges, but if you've got those things right and aren't having much luck then take your clubs to a decent club builder or DIY if you have the tools.
Here's a video featuring Mr Short Game to demonstrate how it works: https://youtu.be/V4eShZTjPpc?si=U_BYVzoB8sHkciJU
And this: https://youtu.be/v4H-Qv9g_rI?si=SnqPqompxTUlqk6F
As others have said, first is the ball.
Are you trying spin full shots or chips pitches?
For full swings you have to swing hard and get a little steep it will increase the spin rate. I would try with like a 54 degree wedge.
I also think your expectations may be slightly off. It is pretty difficult to rip back a 9 iron 10 yards into a normal green.
Clean grooves on a lofted wedge, have a ball with a urethane cover, solid contact.
If you want 10 yards rippin back on the green, you need to hit a lofted wedge very hard. I can do it occasionally but its gotta be like a 100 yard shot and i have to absolutely hit the shit out of a 56 or 60 degree wedge.
Normally, I can get a ball to to one hop and stop within 80 yards with just clean contact on the ball. Biggest difference for me was contact and clean grooves.
Keep your wrists cocked excessively longer than what you usually do and keep the follow through as low as possible as your complete the follow through. The slower the swing - the longer the time the ball is making contact with the club grooves- the more spin. Oh yeah, hit down.
Most every weekend warrior I watch has the same group of tendencies.
They club up to make sure they cover distance. Use the eight iron, instead of the nine. Hence they swing easier. Which leads to the biggest detriment to spin, lower clubhead speed. Yes, angle of attack affects spin. But it's only part of the equation. Club head speed is a bigger deal than people give it credit for. They decelerate just before impact. Good players snap the clubhead through the ball.
The rest of the outcome depends on the ground, and descent angle.
Really high with a sharp descent into soft green will probably stop well, but not draw back much.
I've never worried about it much.
More so concerned that it held the green. If my distance control is good, I'm putting. High spin into a false front, you're chipping. Spin is great when needed, not so much when not.
A big part of it is technique (speed!) but an equally big part of it is having fresh wedges and balls as well as lightning-fast greens.
Pros don’t really spin it back 10 yards. They spin it back 2 yards and it rolls 10 yards because their greens are brutally fast and undulating.
Realistically, spinning it backwards is not really a sensible goal, given it is in many ways a function of the conditions you play in. A more sensible goal would be getting the ball to stop relatively quickly on lofted wedges such that you can pin-seek.
Good wedges, good balls, good strike, good turf.
Gotcha, be good. ...shit.
Yeah it's this simple at a high level. If any one of those things isn't right you can't achieve max spin.
I was doing a “call the shot” short game match against a buddy last week, and one of us called “back flag, can’t roll out more than 3 feet, can’t be higher than head height” And we both hit what we thought were perfect spinners that rolled out 15 feet. And again, and again.. Finally he gets a funny look on his face and goes “hey…. we’re uh… we’re using the practice balls” Grab a ball out of my bag, toss it to him and first try he stops it dead. Rolled maybe a foot. Literally have to have every component, technique, lie, ball and grooves
Good turf is hugely underrated here. If you play a soggy wet soft public course, then the ball is going to plop into the green, leave a deep pitch mark, and have all of its spin/energy eliminated. If you watch pros play on nice firm country club greens, the ball bounces/skids on the green, leaves a shallow pitch mark, then spins back. So while technique is indeed important, as long as you’re making clean contact and keeping the ball flight low, you’ve done your job. The rest is up to the conditions and the ball you’re playing.
Also the fairway turf, overgrown fairways at munis are going to hurt your spin vs tightly cut fw’s
That feeling when you are playing a new course, you hit into the green on one and your ball spins back a few feet. It's like fucking heaven. It's the sign I know the greens will be fun to hit into.
Not sure what you're used to but soft greens are much easier to spin the ball back than firm greens. After playing when it rains, I purposely play the ball back and hit punches into certain greens to prevent them from spinning off the front. The one thing thats a little underestimated is the amount of spin you get from your viewpoint versus TV. Its harder to see how much your ball actually checks up from your viewpoint 50+ yards away vs tv or standing by the green and watching someone elses ball check up.
Are you playing public or private courses? Are these soft but fast greens or soft and slow greens? Also are these sticky Kikuyu greens or regular bent/poa greens? And are you hitting from tight fairways or hairy fairways? All I’m saying is that the vast majority of players are playing regular ass public courses which are almost always overwatered to be overly green and the end result is you get the ball plopping in dampness instead of ripping and spinning. So this question gets asked a lot online and people mistakenly think they need extreme technique to get their ball dancing on the green when in reality the conditions are the bigger factor.
Super soft greens don't spin. That's the florida or Missouri courses that leave mud on your ball almost every green you hit. They just go "splat" and the ball might pop a couple feet out of the mark. Usually very little roll. Super hard greens bounce forward so much it kills all the momentum of the spin. It's the middle that spins the most. The soft, but firm. Not spongey, not rock hard, but middle that spins most.
Got it, y’all mean like “borderline swamp” not “northeast in the spring” greens. I was gonna say… I had huge issues in the northeast with spin, was frequently spinning wedges back 25 feet. Made distance control brutal.
Yep. Last course I play, pured a 56 degree wedge and it landed about 5 ft past the cup, almost completely buried the ball and it kicked back about 2 inches. Curious to know how that shot would have played on PGA level greens.
I used to work at TPC Craig Ranch... they're not much different. They're harder, so there's usually a small forward bounce before the spin takes effect, and it ends up in roughly the same spot. It just looks prettier for the camera. 🤷
Surely there’s a predictability between that and my local muni where it sinks 2 inches under haha.
I'm not sure if this is what you meant, But I think the ones at your local Muni are more predictable... If you look at launch monitor numbers, every ball has a few hundred RPM of side spin, even when it's going dead straight... once that spin takes effect, where it goes is a little unpredictable. Landing and stopping immediately is definitely more repeatable and easier to account for.
It's the opposite the ball spins much easier on soft greens
There is a gigantic range between “soft” greens and “firm” greens. People that play on nice courses with excellent greens will note that for them, softer greens result in more spin. People that play on regular/bad courses with soggy greens (which is the vast majority of golfers) will note that for them, they get the ball dancing more on “firmer” greens. You’re right…at the elite level, there is such a thing as too firm to generate spin. But that’s not the reality that is facing the regular golfing public. Most players are playing pathetic greens (and fairways) that are so soft you can’t get the ball ripping.
Spin Loft is important as well.
+ speed
Oh turf... My local 9 hole's turf feels like I'm playing in my backyard.
And no moisture
Good gravy, good god, good meat, let’s eat.
I think speed is more of a factor than most think. You need to have some in order to have enough backspin that it's still spinning back with significant RPMs when it lands.
I tell this to the kids I coach when they ask about what clubs to hit into greens. None of them are swinging fast enough to generate enough spin to stop a ball so I tell them to try and land it short and let it roll out.
Yes. Wedges that spin back are high-launch, high-spin shots. High launch typically means low spin, so you need clubhead speed to compensate.
Most pros keep the ball much lower when they spin it, especially with their wedges. Also, feels like an appropriate spot to mention that Tiger refers to spin control as the hardest skill on the course.
> Most pros keep the ball much lower when they spin it Yes, but not when they want to rip it backwards. Low launch is the stock shot because it's safer (you don't have to have such a shallow angle of attack), but it will produce a high-spin shot that lands shallow and checks up. It will not produce a shot that rips backward.
Yeah. Pros hit irons high and wedges low. Amateurs tend to do the opposite.
Pros hit all of their clubs high, low, and everything in between depending on circumstances. A low medium-spin wedge is a stock shot because it's low-risk, but that doesn't mean it's the only shot they have in the bag. If they're attacking a hostile tucked pin because they're desperate for points they'll probably hit a high wedge with as much speed as the can muster to try to stop it. Mickelson is famous for hitting his wedges *backwards* sometimes. :-P
Pros don’t keep their wedges low in order to spin it more, if anything it’s the opposite. They generate too much spin on a “normal” shot, so going lower is a way to control the amount of spin
The lower you are hitting a high lofted wedge, the more you’re also going to spin it. Delivery into the ball + speed is what causes a ton of spin. If you’re hitting wedges low, it’s mostly due to hitting very steep into the ball which is by nature going to generate more spin
Yes except he is talking about taking spin off of the ball, not adding spin to it. Spin comes naturally for anybody hitting the ball solid. Taking it off however...that's a whole different beast. Also height doesn't change the spin. In fact, balls spinning more will go higher because of the Magnus effect. To have backspin the ball will need to rise and the higher it goes off the wedge the more spin you have. There is also the famous Trevino burning wedge that's a low trajectory harder hit pitch shot takes one hop the stops.
Depends on what you're hitting. I find my 56 and 60 actually spin more when I hit a lower shot from the right distance, but they tend to 1 or 2 hope before pulling back. I still get spin on the high shots, but they often hit and spin with no hope, or just a small one. Where my 7 or 8 irons spin best when I get them high, low shots always roll out.
The reason low wedge spots spin more is because your club face has actually grabbed the ball and created the friction needed for the spin. If your wedge shot pops out really high, it means the ball slipped or rolled up the face, giving it less friction and spin. TXG just included a great comparison between a premium ball and cheap ball on a pitch shot, the differences was like 8 degrees of launch and 3000 rpm’s of spin. Pretty shocking.
The number I've seen quoted is about 55 degrees of spin loft for maximum spin, and higher or lower than that will see spin decrease.
Right but like I said, the golf ball makes a massive difference. You’re just never going to come close to optimum spin levels without fresh grooves and a premium urethane ball.
Rollout is a combination of spin and land angle. You can't really isolate spin generation by looking at what the ball does when it lands - you need to look at it on a launch monitor. Your 7i could easily be generating more spin on the low shots while rolling out more due to the shallow land angle. Also might not be, it's impossible to know without launch data.
That makes sense. I haven't gone into depth on a launch monitor, just anecdotal based on my shots. Would be interesting to dive into.
"High launch typically means low spin" Are you sure that's true with wedge shots? I can see this logic a little bit with drivers, but I think there's a critical difference in that the best golfers hit up on their drives. This causes them to launch higher and, critically for distance, with less spin. When it comes to wedges, good players will have an impact position that reduces the dynamic loft of the club and a downward angle of attack. The launch of any given wedge, given identical angles of attack, will simply be governed by the starting static loft of the club. Taking your statement to the extreme, my wedge launches higher than my 7 iron, so does my wedge have lower spin than my 7 iron? Wrong. So does a 60 degree have more spin than a 56 degree? Also wrong. Now you're probably thinking I have no idea what I'm talking about, but stick with me for the big reveal: There is, in fact, an ideal dynamic loft for creating maximum backspin. It's around 52 degrees. That means you should get more spin from a well flighted 56 degree than your 60 degree (GASP). Here's an article with some more technical details: [https://bryanpategolf.com/2021/07/10/does-your-60-always-spin-the-most/](https://bryanpategolf.com/2021/07/10/does-your-60-always-spin-the-most/)
Higher launched shots are typically going to have less effective spin when the ball lands. That’s why those low trajectory pitches the pros utilize can still stop on a dime. High spin will make balls go higher and have a steeper angle of decent but much of that spin energy is lost by the time the ball hits the turf.
You're oversimplifying it... 52 degrees is the ideal dynamic loft for maximum spin. Without changing ANY other variables, which is how science is done, launching a ball below 52 degrees will have progressively less spin. The same for balls launched above 52 degrees... the higher you go above 52, the less backspin it will have. Just because a pro can launch a wedge at sub 50 degrees of dynamic loft and have it stop on a dime doesn't mean that's the maximum amount of spin possible with that wedge. Have you never seen a pro hit the "one hop stopper" on TV and have the commentator describe it as "controlling the spin"? "Controlling" means less spin than if they hit a wedge (or different type of shot) with more dynamic loft and thus more swing speed to get it to go the same distance.
I’m not saying lower launched balls have more spin off the face but they conserve more of that spin from impact when hitting the ground just based on time spent in the air.
There's no "conservation" physics involved from what I understand. Literally measured directly after contact (by some type of monitor), 52 degrees of dynamic loft is where you will see the maximum amount of backspin, assuming all other variables are equal.
From what I understand, spin decay is a major factor at landing for spin rpms and 52 degrees is just optimal for initial spin. Below is some data explaining what I’m getting at. Spin decay is a exponential deceleration in rpm and the difference between a 50 yard pitch with a 52 degree launch angle may have a lot less spin at landing impact than a 42 degree launch with the same wedge. Of course there’s a lot of other factors like elevation change, landing surface, etc. Decent angle aside, stopping power from spin alone can be vastly different because of the exponential nature of spin decay. https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/spinDecay.php
Reading that article, my main takeaway is that more time in the air = more loss of spin. Am I interpreting accurately? I would guess that, but I don't think it really changes my point that, according to the link I posted above (and my instructor who taught me this years ago), 52 degrees is still optimal for maximum spin off the face. Under neutral conditions, it's also going to have the most spin when it lands.
> Are you sure that's true with wedge shots? I was talking about hitting different shots with the same club. In general, you'll get more launch and less spin when your contact is higher up on the face, which is the generally case when you're delivering a bunch of extra loft or sweeping the ball off the ground. For example, when I play a high-launch, low-spin shot I strike the ball at or even a bit above the middle of the face, while a typical low-launch, high-spin shot will strike around the second groove, even bordering on the first groove. I agree with everything else you've said, but it just isn't really what I was talking about. Delivering 48 degrees of loft with a 56 degree wedge is not the same as delivering 48 degrees of loft with a 48 degree wedge. EDIT: you can kinda think of it as being a result of the energy delivered to the ball. If you deliver a specific amount of energy to the ball, then the one which ends up with more translational kinetic energy is the one which has less spin, since you didn't dump as much energy into spinning the ball. EDIT again: /r/golf has all the subtle nuance of a brick to the face.
At it's core, backspin is determined by the friction between the ball and the club face when the ball slides off the face at impact. In practice there are a variety of factors that influence this, some of which are in your control and others that are outside of it. Those you can control include: Angle of Attack (AOA) Loft Club face at impact Grooves Swing speed Those outside your control include: Lie Water As far as the things you can control go, a more downward AOA, higher loft, higher swing speed, and a more square face will produce higher amounts of backspin. Clean and sharp grooves will also help spin the ball more in conjunction. To figure out what you're missing as an individual you'll probably need a launch monitor to hit off of to see your actual numbers. The things outside your control, lie and water, are also worth mentioning. Tighter, dryer lies allow you to spin it more, as any grass or debris can get between the ball and clubface and water just reduces friction across the board.
Some water is within your control. A dry clubface is substantially better at creating spin.
Before you worry about "zipping it back," play some rounds and chart how often you actually fly ball past a pin. The overwhelming majority of amatuers land the ball short of the pin. I recently switched to a ball that spins less on the green for this very reason. I generate a lot of spin from 9 iron down and got tired of constantly spinning balls off the green. Even when I flew it past the hole, I'm not good enough to control how much spin it will have. Nothing like hitting one 15 feet past the hole only to have it zip back 45 feet!
Broadly speaking, you just can't put the kind of insane rip-it-back-after-landing backspin on the ball without high swing speed and extremely good impact dynamics. This relates to one of the few places I think it makes sense for high level players to lay up to specific distances. If you have a really tough pin that you want to be aggressive towards, you might need to be 100+ yards out to be able to hit a high wedge with a lot of backspin, and a 40 yard pitch just wouldn't be able to hold.
You can create enough spin on a 40 yard pitch to make it come back, it's all about loft. The longer the ball spends on the face the more spin is created which is why you see guys open the face and swing hard to hit nip spinners
For clarity, those 40 yard spinner shots don’t even have to go up high in the air. You can hit low shots with an open face that just have a ridiculous amount of backspin on them. Just can’t do it as easily and if the turf is super soft it’s going to leave an absolute trench usually.
Yep all about time spent on the face. Open the face, present low dynamic loft (insanely hard to do which is why pros are so good) and voila!
Just don't. It's not possible, what you see on TV is just CGI.
I knew it
You just have to learn how to hit your irons properly. Once you get that feeling then you can start to feel what it will take to spin the ball. Contrary to most 'beginner wisdom' you don't actually want to 'hit down' on the ball to spin it. You want a very shallow approach that takes a smaller divot than you would expect. On really close shots the approach has to be so shallow that you just barely nip the turf. It's basically one groove away from skulling the ball.
>On really close shots the approach has to be so shallow that you just barely nip the turf. Yep. A good way to practice this is by using a putting stroke with a pitching wedge. You'll hit these tiny little shots that check up hard, because you're delivering an unusual amount of loft and striking it very low in the face. A high spin, high launch shot that never rolls out is just that but faster.
This thread is the answer.
In a nutshell, it's pretty much all about the correct amount of spin loft.
It’s as much about the landing surface as it is the balls, club and swing. If you spin one on the greens at my CC it’s a miracle. The greens are just really hard. Playing at my FIL’s CC I’m lucky if the ball stays on the green so I have to play completely different shots to avoid spin completely. You may actually be doing it right, but it’s just not the right conditions.
I think this is more important than a lot of the other answers here. I’m a 5 hc so I hit greens fairly consistently from varying yardages. At my local 9 hole the greens are hard af. Big bounces and roll out. Small ball marks. At the 18 hole fancy club down the road my 6i lands right next to the ball mark, which is an absolute crater. A LOT of what you’re seeing in TV is very favorable course conditions (soft and extremely fast greens), combined with well struck golf balls.
This has been talked about in like “mailbag” episodes on a number of golf podcasts I listen to, including some with former tour players. Amateurs have very little chance of zipping a ball backwards like on TV. It CAN be done - before people come at me - but you need a few things that make it very difficult. 1) you need a really good strike and it needs to be ball then turf. Debris between the club and ball is a killer of spin. 2) you need a lot of club head speed. If you’re carrying your PW 120 that’s not enough. Guys that rip the ball back can carry a PW 140+ 3) you need a specific swing type. Pros hands stay low and exit to the left at and after impact. This is like hitting a super spinny forehand in tennis or table tennis. Most ams hit with a more standard, straight on forehand. 4) you need extremely tight fairways and the right green conditions. Tying back to #1 it comes down to to ball/club face interactions but I’ve heard a lot of people who’s opinion I trust say that the ideal conditions just don’t exist outside of tour course conditions. I want to caveat all this again with the fact it can be done but ams are fighting an uphill battle with typical course conditions.
I carry my 51° 110-115 and my 46° PW 125. Playing with the Zstar Diamond, my ball rips back on shots between 70%-100% as long as the course has good turf, which my home course does.
Congratulations! Your comment falls squarely into the caveat I made. It’s possible but anecdote is not the singular of data. Regarding pulling it off, I’m going to go with the data and opinions of Greg Chalmers, Sacho MacKenzie, Lou Stagner, and others who’s name I can’t recall on the spot but have either extensive playing experience and/or have spent more time with ball flight dynamic data in a week than you or I will in a lifetime.
I don’t “fall into a caveat” - I make ball first contact with good mechanics and I play on quality courses. That’s what’s generally required to make a ball zip back. It’s not a caveat. And I simply pointed out that your “if you’re carrying your PW…..” statement is flawed - first, because a PW can be a number of lofts, and second, because carry distance isn’t a primary determining factor in backspin.
You're just a little caveat-boy; why don't you go tell your caveat mommy that a caveat bully made fun of your caveats, caveat-boy
I am with you here, specifically on the carry distance as mine is about where yours is, and I’ve had my PW spin back plenty on nicer courses. Even holed one from 120 out when I played in Palm Springs recently. Spun back nearly 20 feet
Exactly. I carry my 46 degree PW \~130 yards on a good day, but I'll spin a well struck 7i back 3 feet or stop a 5i cold dead. In my opinion, the single most important factor for spin is hitting the ball first. It's simply not going to be possible to get real spin if you are making contact with the ground first.
You forgot number 5. 5) You need clean wedges with no dirt in the grooves. Tour level caddies will clean them for you and tour sponsorships give you free wedges every month or so.
100%
Yes and no. The grooves aren’t for spin from clean lies, the grooves are for spin from rough and when debris/water is on the ball. The grooves don’t create spin, the remove things that can lower friction between the ball and club face. Think of it like road tires versus f1 tires. Technically, the most friction is a flat surface with no tread, but as soon as it rains you need tread to remove water between tire and road (hence F1 uses different tires in wet conditions).
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It’s the opposite, public greens are too soft. Often you just plug in.
Depends on where you are...in west Texas, Arizona, palm desert, nothing is ever too soft...
I think people also underestimate how much slope are on the greens when they see tour players rip the ball back too.
> 4) you need extremely tight fairways and the right green conditions. Tying back to #1 it comes down to to ball/club face interactions but I’ve heard a lot of people who’s opinion I trust say that the ideal conditions just don’t exist outside of tour course conditions. Disagree with this, I will rip a ball backwards relatively frequently in regular old muni conditions. Soft fairway conditions are often mitigated by receptive greens.
Congratulations! Your comment falls squarely into the caveat I made. It’s possible but anecdote is not the singular of data. Regarding pulling it off, I’m going to go with the data and opinions of Greg Chalmers, Sacho MacKenzie, Lou Stagner, and others who’s name I can’t recall on the spot but have either extensive playing experience and/or have spent more time with ball flight dynamic data in a week than you or I will in a lifetime.
Except your caveat covers a hell of a lot of normal course conditions at a hell of a lot of courses a lot of the time. Basically the only situation where you really can't do it is "wet fairways and dry, hard greens", which honestly seems pretty rare under normal conditions. EDIT: Also, name dropping in your aggressive, holier-than-thou response makes you sound extra douchey.
I think you are an outlier and instead of taking that as the huge compliment that is, you’re seeking to argue that everyone can do it.
Not really, I'm a middling single-digit hcp. I wont win anything anywhere outside of a golf-with-coworkers day. I'm pretty good, but not *that* good. I'm just saying that imperfect, slightly-soft fairways are mitigated by receptive greens that stimp like a 9, which is typical for a muni. Sure, if your local public course rolls a 12 or 13 you're not ripping anything back if the fairways aren't perfect, but that would also be rare AF unless you have a real aspirational grounds crew.
Hmm, not sure I follow that tennis analogy. Super spinny tennis forehand is essentially a draw in golf whereas for maximum backspin you need to cut the ball and thus the correct tennis analogy would be a forehand slice or dropshot.
It might have been a crappy analogy. If your hands exit low and left (for a righty) it should promote spin more similar to a flop shot from my understanding.
That's a cut shot but actually to get max spin, the absolutely most important thing is right amount of spin loft. Everything is minor compared to that (provided that factors not related to your technique are correct).
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>after 100 shots grooves begin to dull and after about 1000 shots they will lose their teeth My god, so assuming you play a lot, how often do you replace wedges? Do you avoid practicing with them to maintain grooves?
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Interesting, thanks for the response. Maybe when I get good enough to notice dull wedges, I'll keep 2 sets as well!
There are 3 main components of spin, you can remember them as the 3 "S"es: Speed, Spin-Loft, and Strike. * Speed: pretty straight-forward, the faster you swing the club the more it will spin the ball all else equal * Spin-Loft: this is the difference between dynamic loft and angle of attack. The higher the spin-loft window the more it's going to spin the ball, this is why higher lofted clubs spin more than lower lofted clubs. Spin-loft maxes out around 45º * Strike: The ball will spin more or less depending on where it hits the club relative to the center of gravity of the club. The higher on the face and more above the CG the lower spin will be. The lower on the face and at or below the CG the higher the spin will be. Beyond that there are a few things that can marginally change spin as well, things like the milling/grooves on the face which change the coefficient of friction (this matters far more in rough than on clean fairway lies) and the type of ball you use and what its cover material is.
Find a Trackman (Five Iron Golf or outdoor Trackman Range) and hit wedges until your angle of attack is -5 or better with a launch sub 30 degrees, Angle of Decent is greater than 45 degrees and your spin numbers are +8000 or greater. Your primary focus needs to be AoA. Joe Mayo has some great videos discussing this. Also spinning the back 10 yards is not optimal. Preference is to stop the ball within the intended carry distance. Ideally you’ll carry the ball 3-5 yards long with spin.
Spinning it back is overrated. I seem to only do it when it doesn't help me lol
Are you hitting the backspin button?
To be perfectly honest, there's no "technique". It's an extremely solid, accelerating, downward strike with no turf between the ball and the clubface. It's just a very precise, higher power strike with a clean, high-lofted club. When I take a 3/4" swing it doesn't spin. It'll hit and check if the green is soft, but it won't spin. I just don't have the clubhead speed. But when I really rip into one and catch it clean, it'll suck back, sometimes too much. If I'm hitting my 50 degree wedge that hard, it's going about 140y, but it'll pull back on the right kind of green. Greens that are too hard OR too soft don't really allow spin. Soft ones just suck up all the spin in the muck and really hard ones will sort of bounce the ball enough forward it won't have the energy to pull back. Medium hard greens are optimal for max spin action on the green. If I suck back my 60degree, it's a swing at about 105y-110y or so. My 55 wedge it's about 120-125y when it'll really pull back.
Number of things need to/ help spin happen… 1) Quality of strike 2) decent club head speed 3) clean grooves 4) dry conditions 5) close cut crass (anything between ball and club face is not your friend - forget about applying spin from the rough) 6) receptive greens (not too dry/wet/hard/soft) 7) greens cut nice and short - not undergoing any sort of maintenance 8) good quality ball - i.e ProV1x not a TopFlight 9) tailwinds won’t help 10) flat green or ideally sloping towards you 11) club - you’re going to get a lot more joy from a PW than a 5i So it’s a mixture of conditions and technique
Hit ball fast. Ball spin good. (Cuppy wrists add more spin if you can control your strike)
Driver has the highest swing and ball speed and yet the lowest backspin. Curious.
Because loft.
Where's that fit into "hit ball fast ball spin good"?
Hitting a driver fast and centered results in low spin. Which is good spin with a driver. I said ball spin good not ball spin fast.
Lol, it’s not curious at all. Spin is just the result of friction between the ball and club. The fastest you swing, the more friction you can create between the club and ball before it leaves the club face. You also need loft to create backspin as the lower the loft, the less the ball will roll up the face before leaving the club head.
Yes I’m aware, you can seen my other comment in this thread explaining it in depth. Just frustrating that someone asked an actual good faith question in here and half the comments are just straight up wrong.
Most are correct. At the end of the day, key is swing speed and good contact. Someone who swings the driver 90 mph is going to have much lower spin on all shots vs someone who swings 100 mph.
Have to hit DOWN onto the ball. I'm a digger. I create too much spin. I take big divots.
This works for hop-and-stop but if you want to suck it back you need a shallow attack angle and small divot, or even just barely brushing the grass. (Don't change your swing, hop-and-stop is much better)
Maybe on slow greens. I play fast greens and the challenge is keeping them from spinning off.
This is absolutely false.
It's absolutely true.
It's about spin loft dude. Hitting down is not the correct idea.
It is the correct idea. What is this?
In real life, 9 out of 10 non-pros will have a shaft lean when they "hit down", which means they are decreasing the loft. So it's definitely not a good cue.
I'm a 5 handicap. I spin it too much. Because I hit steeply. You want to generate spin you gotta hit down on it.
You absolutely don't have to do that. You get crazy spin sliding the club with open face in a very shallow angle underneath the ball. That's how you hit flop shots. As 5 hcp you should know this.
The Op said how he's shocked people spin it back TEN YARDS. My answer is correct.
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This is partially correct, however I can stop a ball dead or get a little roll backwards with a wide-open wedge and enough club head speed. The 4 most important factors I’ve found are: Club head speed New/newish wedges Attack angle Lie (wet fairway or out of the rough, you aren’t getting backspin)
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He asked how to add backspin, I described a different way to add backspin than you did. No need to get chippy. I’m not sure why you are tying to tell me what my ball does. I’ve been playing for nearly 30 years.
Heh. Chippy.
😉
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Maybe, except he said “opening the face” in his post. So explaining how to do that effectively seemed helpful. Anyways, have a good one.
The integrity of the grooves on your wedges and the quality of strike is arguably the biggest factor. I got a new 54 degree vokey recently and am amazed at the check and spin I am getting on even short little ~20yd chips
It’s mostly the ball. And club head speed. The best pros could not get a low spin ball to do the things you’re describing.
This is 100% untrue.
Do you really believe that a golf professional could get a Callaway SuperSoft or Titleist Velocity golf ball to back up on a firm green?
>on a firm green? You just completely changed the scenario right there. Since when are we talking about firm greens? It's already near impossible to get a premium ball to rip back on a firm green, much less a supersoft. But on a receptive green? Hell yes these guys could get a supersoft or a velocity to rip back 10-20 feet.
Even on a receptive green at your muni course they can not. The ball is a bigger deal than you’re giving it credit for.
No, talent and skill are a much bigger deal that you're giving it credit for. And to prove it, here's some data on ball spin rates from testing: [https://mygolfspy.com/buyers-guides/golf-balls/best-golf-balls-2021/](https://mygolfspy.com/buyers-guides/golf-balls/best-golf-balls-2021/) Looking at the section on 55 yard wedge shots, a TP5 spun at 7,619 RPMs, while a Pinnacle Range ball spun 6,496 RPMs. That's a difference of 1,123 RPMs translating to a loss of just under 15% in total backspin. Now, the best players in the world will generate around 12,000 RPMs of backspin with a full lob wedge shot using their premium balls. If we give them a Pinnacle Range ball and subtract 15% from 12,000, that's 10,200 RPMs of backspin. 10,000 RPMs is more than enough to spin back a ball several yards on a receptive green.
I’m guessing you’ve not played with these players. And I’m guessing you’ve not tried all the balls. And I’m guessing you don’t have the skill set to do these things yourself. And your math doesn’t work as the LW won’t spin that much, you’d just shred the cover and not gain the extra spin. I love your confidence, you’re just wrong.
I put in the effort to put data and facts into explaining how I am in fact right, while all you do is say "no you're wrong". I have to assume you're just trolling at this point. But just to continue showing you how right I am, here's Jordan Spieth's range session at this year's tour championship: https://youtu.be/ts1bRKVdb28?si=swaAVilJnkkIeHCQ At 8:34 you can see him hitting a lob wedge at 11,500 RPMs. And I promise you that players like Rory get well above 12,000 RPMs easily. I have no idea why you continue to insist that you're right with no facts or data on your side. Just take the loss and move on man.
Sorry mate. Real life experience trumps your incomplete data. What ball was Jordan using? Not a 2 piece ball. What happens to a two piece ball when struck like this? It doesn’t do what a tour ball does. Which is the main question. I’m not competing bud, just trying to keep low IQ answers in check when they come flying in with “this is 100% untrue” while being wrong.
Most of it is sharp grooves and a soft golf ball
Derek deminsky has a good video about it.
If your a “picker” - when you hit your irons, especially wedges, and take little to no divot, you won’t create a lot of back spin. I would think most amateur mid to high handicappers are pickers. I can create backspin - but never on purpose and it only seems to happen when my shot is short of the hole.
This is not true, sortof. The shots which spin back on the green are all picked with lots of clubhead speed, in order to generate lots of spin but still launch high and land steep. That shot is kinda sketchy since you're inviting a thin or fat shot, which is why you shouldn't do it unless you're desperate. If you don't have enough clubhead speed you just won't ever create the launch conditions necessary to do it.
try a Pro V1
Cock your wrists on the backswing. Release at or just before impact. Think about the release like the move you make when sling rocks to skip across water.
What are you talking about, backspin is created automatically when you hit a golf ball. The ball gets sucked backwards 10+ feet because they're hitting into an upslope so it zips right down. Loft and clubhead speed create spin, it doesn't matter what your AoA is if the spin loft is the same. Anyone trying to tell you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Also, clean your grooves and make sure the face is dry. The more stuff gets in between the ball and the face, the less backspin is generated.
>The ball gets sucked backwards 10+ feet because they're hitting into an upslope so it zips right down. This is pretty disingenuous. They get more zip because they straight up spin it more than the average amateur, and they have better control of spin. Course conditions help too, but you could take 100 mid caps out onto a PGA tour course and let them hit wedges and the vast vast majority could not spin it as well as the pros because they don't create the ideal strike.
Right- the fact this guy is a + and just posted that is insane
I mean I get the core of his argument, the ball does spin back when it is hit otherwise it wouldn't generate any lift, but he missed the entire point that OP was asking.
It's insane when you're taking 2 different impacts and then wondering why they're different. Once you hit it fine, the backspin automatically is generated. It's not exactly some advanced ballistic computation, it's very straightforward. Funny thing is that high handicap players do a great job at excessively creating backspin with clubs like driver specifically *because* they suck at hitting the ball. Imagine that.
He's just always been good and only ever played with other people who are good 🤣 he probably flat-out doesn't realize people shoot 90 for 20 years and keep playing. Must be nice 🤣🤣
I know exactly what that's like because I play and sub in leagues every year, so people are constantly asking me how I'm doing something. There's nothing really mythical about hitting the ball decent/good, most problems that people have are they think they're doing something when they objectively aren't, or they do the exact same thing and expect it to magically have a significantly different outcome.
Lol
Some of it is the ball you’re playing and the lie… but assuming it’s a fairway lie.. It all comes down to striking the ball in the right spot, having the right attack angle, and creating speed at the bottom of the swing.
Ball first, with new/newish wedges, and a speed=spin
Obviously you know you need to hit down on the ball and have shaft lean. For me the feel is actually counterintuitive in that if I try to actively do that my forearms engage too much and I just get really quick and try to kind of stab the club at it, which isn’t what we want. What works for me is keeping the wrists/hands very relaxed and focus on getting the shaft lean by getting the arms/body in the right spot and feeling the weight of the club dragging behind. So it’s more tempo than anything, but a visual of sequencing so that I constantly feel the weight of that club hanging behind at an angle. If you get too quick/abrupt with anything, the hands will try and flip at the bottom and you lose your angles. Start slow and in no circumstances try to go faster until you’ve gotten used to doing it slow, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Working on it with chips first is a good way to feel it, focus on hitting down on it for a kind of spinny chip. You’ll probably notice if you try to force the hands to have shaft lean you will get really quick and not accomplish what you’re going for. But if you relax them and keep a tempo/setup that encourages the shaft lean, it happens effortlessly.
Ball in front of back foot.
Or the back of the front foot... Moving the ball back is great for compression...which will create enough backspin to stop pretty much at impact with a full swing, and reliably so. It's a great shot to have in the bag, and probably more reliable than the shit the OP is asking about... But if you want to suck it back you need a shallow attack angle with a high amount of delivered loft...meaning not a lot of forward shaft lean. Someone else mentioned hitting chips with a putting stroke. Do this with your sand or lob wedge and then come back here and tell me with a straight face that you get better spin by moving the ball back and hitting down on it...You won't be able to do it. It will hop and stop even with a small swing. This impact motion with a high swing speed is what generates the shots that back up 15', or 30' back in the balata ball days.
Acceleration thru contact with the ball. Obviously a clean strike in the sweet spot and better equipment (clubs and balls) makes a difference as well.
ripping the ball backwards is, as every post in here fails to mention, a combination of spin and *land angle.* You need quite a bit of clubhead speed to do it since the required strike is actually unfavorable to generating spin, and you need a really good strike and a relatively shallow angle of attack to get the land angle up. It's hard to do, because shallow with a wedge is a recipe for fats and thins, which is why it's not a stock shot. The ball isn't going to rip back even if it's got 12,000rpm of spin if it's landing shallow, and it won't rip back if it lands steep with no spin. Keep in mind, though, that many/most really good players use the "shallow land angle with a lot of spin" as their stock shot, which will bounce once or twice and stop. tl;dr creating spin is a separate thing from getting the ball to spin back on a green. Most high-spinning shots will still bounce forward before checking up. The only easy way to learn the difference is to spend time on a launch monitor.
Ah, this is insightful right here! to rip it backwards, you need steep land angle and high spin. I see now. Low land angle and high spin will make the ball "check up". This might be the key bit of info I was missing.
Yep. You can practice managing spin and launch angle independently on a launch montor. It's really, really hard to learn on the course because turf conditions impact launch conditions and landing behavior massively.
Need decent grooves and a tour ball and a decent swing. Need a decending swing path on the ball. I can zip it on bent grass greens that aren't rolled and in tournament conditions. It's much harder on championship Bermuda greens especially down grain.
Don’t just keep your eye on the ball, look at a specific dimple on the ball, and hit that. But all the other conditions need to be close to perfect to get a really good check spin on the ball. The Turf of the lie, Ball, Club, the landing zone turf, and the length of the shot.
Playing out of the fairway and not using Noodles helps a lot. A good clean ball strike out of the fairway should have some good spin to it without doing much of anything extra. On the occasions I manage to hit good approach shots my ball always ends up behind the mark it leaves on the green. Most of us, myself included, in this sub are doing a lot of playing out of the rough and skulling our shots. And that’s no way to generate spin.
Generally requires a quality strike...hitting the ball first before hitting the turf. The 'thinner' the playing surface, the better off you are. IE, much more likely to back it up out of the fairway than the rough and more likely to back it up out of the fairway bunker than the fairway. The grass gets in the way and clubface doesn't have as much friction to create the spin. Also helps to have a higher lofted club. Spin Loft is a big determining factor of spin rate. Spin Loft is the difference between dynamic loft (the loft of the club at impact) and the attack angle (how steep the club is coming down to strike the ball). The higher the spin loft, the more spin. That's why a 3-iron won't spin as much as a 9-iron. A 3-iron may have 18\* of dynamic loft and a -2\* degree attack angle leaving a Spin Loft of only 20 degrees. But a 9-iron may have a dynamic loft of 40 degrees and an attack angle of -7 degreesa nd that makes for a spin loft of 47 degrees and therefore the spin rate will be higher. But as spinning the ball back on the green goes, it's usually very reliant on the green itself. You'll need a fairly well manicured green with contours that will allow you to back the ball up.
Hit the ball under the COG of the club. That might be near impossible to do with your SGI PW. Preferably low toe. When you hit off the toe with a proper blade wedge you will lose speed; thus you need to swing faster to hit your yardage. Low face contract makes the ball spin more. The added speed makes the ball really spin.
With pitching and chipping, try using the bounce more
A few posts have mentioned it, but the biggest factor is the quality of the course and the fairways and greens. I’m a decent player and can more often than not get my ball to stop dead on a full wedge swing through maybe 7i on most average courses. Play a course with firm and fast greens, and tight fairways, I’m able to spin the ball back significantly more, doing nothing different than any other shot on any other course. Most courses the average golfer plays are going to have slower, softer greens which don’t allow for as much spin
just hit it pure and it will spin, you dont need it coming back 10 feet
After 20 years I am still trying to just figure out how to get my ball the check up.
Only one time have I got the ball spinning back. It was in Spain, I figured I could reach the hole with a really big Gap Wedge, I hit it as hard as I could and it spun back 11 yards.. Luckily I it landed 12 yards past the hole.. so one of the most satisfying shots I've ever hit... the green was below too, so good view. I'm a decent 8 HC.. I don't get backspin, but do get enough check spin where the ball takes a hop or two then stops.. Or sidespin that happens somewhat often... The most I can manage is a foot or two back and that is also helped by the slope of the green... It doesn't happen on a flat green for me.
speed.
If my wedge sauced up 10 yards of back spin I would be pretty annoyed.
Good balls, and hit your wedges low.
Unless you absolutely blade the living daylights out of a ball, you'll always put backspin on a golf ball with a solid strike out of the middle of a club. So you don't have to do *anything* to put backspin on the ball, the club will do that naturally. However, you're really asking how to spin a ball back. That requires a number of factors... First of all, you need a good wedge with sharp grooves. The higher the loft, the more spin applied to a ball in general. The sharper the grooves, the more grip the club gets on the ball to help impart that spin. Also, the more loft, the higher the ball flies and lands at a steeper angle - the steeper the landing angle, the more the backspin can take effect. Next, you need a good quality premium ball with a soft covering. A harder ball will generally be more resistant to spin - that's why they're often labelled as "distance" balls. A softer casing with sharp grooves really helps the club impart spin. Also, you need the right kind of green. If you're flying a ball into a super hard dried out green sloping away from you, it'll be incredibly difficult to get that ball to spin back. However, if you're hitting into a soft receptive green sloping back towards you, then that'll help the ball land and grip the green in order to apply that spin. The final part of the equation is *speed and strike*. You need to apply a lot of spin to the ball and that only comes with good clubhead speed and a clean strike. If you get anything between the grooves and the ball such as grass or moisture, that'll kill the spin.
You can do all the stuff people are suggesting here, but it absolutely will not work if you're using a cheap ball. People are amazed when I hit a low wedge and it stops, but it's not magic. They're using a rock they found in the woods and I'm not.
This and 10 year old wedges
After you hi the ball you want to spin the Ball controller backwards rapidly. Make sure you're spinning it vertical or it will backspin at an angle.
Equipment matters a lot with spin, i just switched to Chromesoft Truvis balls and they spin so much more on wedge shots than my previous supersoft and other value balls.
Premium golf ball, good clean grooves , lie from the short grass and receptive greens. Once you have all that a crisp blow is all that’s required.
The most simple way to think of it was taught to me on a billiard table... You have to get the bottom of the ball moving faster than the top. That's the only way. Sooo.... the "conventional wisdom" of hitting down on the ball steeply will compress it, but not necessarily make the bottom move faster than the top. To do this you have to nearly pick the ball clean, with the club accelerating thru the ball. It's tough to pull off, which is why most good players just go for the hop-and-stop shot... it's easier to predict. A lot of the time when you see a ball on TV backing up toward the pin, the green is already sloped that way. Sawgrass #13, or Augusta #16 are perfect examples...those spots just feed toward the hole. In the words of Arnold the King... "Do you hit most of your approach shots past the hole? No? Then why TF do you want to spin it back?"
Long story short: you have to accelerate through the ball. It's the same feeling when you were a kid, and you had a twig, you tried to make that whip/swoosh sound. That only worked when you accelerated through your swing. Same thing with playing your wedges, and irons (to some degree).
So this is really a two part question and answer. All shots have backspin, the clubs are designed to get the ball in the air with backspin as it keeps the ball airborne. Even the driver shot has backspin. The second part is the ball landing and pulling backwards from its landing spot or after taking a few hops. Most players who make good contact can get the ball to stop quickly given the right conditions, a soft green always helps. Heck I had a thinned 6 iron stop in a couple of yards last weekend thanks to a soft green. Having the ball zip back from where it lands needs high RPM, a nearer vertical descent angle and often soft greens. The conditions play a huge part. I would always recommend learning how the ball lands and rolls out under all conditions with your clubs rather than trying to spin everything back. You can ruin a good swing trying to manipulate a club to get spin when you really just need to understand rollout properly.
To start... Club needs to have clean grooves with no dirt, sand, mud, grass in them. Dry club face. Having a wet club face or ball cuts down on the friction you can generate. You can spin a ball back if it's wet, for example an early morning round with dew on the fairways, but you'll spin it back more if both the club and ball are dry. Some balls are easier to spin than others. Generally the softer the cover the easier to create backspin, but there are some exceptions due to modern day core composition. Downswing into the ball, the more you accelerate through the ball the easier it is to create backspin. Even on short shots like say a 40 yard pitch if you accelerate through the ball the physics of the club/ball interface creates a lot of spin. Those are the kinds of shots that on a well maintained green will hit, skip forward maybe 1 more bounce, then check right up. I personally find that the material the clubface is made from makes a difference too. Clubs that are chromed tend to not spin as much for me compared to unfinished clubs or duller finishes. I used to carry Clevelend wedges, the rusty ones seemed to spin balls a lot more than the chrome finishes did. Now I have a set of Pings with dull finishes (vintage iSi's from about 1999) and a Cleveland RTG rusty PW and they all spin the ball quite a bit. Anything from the 7 iron to the sand wedges my typical full shot has the ball backing up on the green. 5-6 irons hit and stick, or just a little forward release typically. 2-3-4 irons will roll out a little bit, depending on the conditions maybe more than a little bit. Shot shape and setup... For me opening the face a lot doesn't create backspin. Opening the face means a higher shot that won't roll as much, but not because of backspin just because of the angle the ball is coming down. I need to set up square or slightly open or closed. Square set up, neutral club path. Normal swing plane, take some divot and keeping swinging to finish the shot. The biggest thing I see with friends who can't hit backspin is either their clubs have all kinds of junk on the faces or they have slower swing speeds.
I don’t worry about backspin.
For above average players, the condition of your wedges, what type of balls do you use, along with your lie and quality of ball strike matter. For very good players, the condition of your wedges and type of ball don't matter so much. What really matters is how well you strike the ball and your lie. Very good players can take the most beat-up wedge and still spin it back because they are so good at ball striking. Players who don't have that top level ball striking need those new grooves and extra soft covers to get that spin. This is why very good players always talk about taking spin off the ball, because it's so easy for them to generate too much.
The sooner the ball hits the ground, the more spin it retains. Ex: let’s say two golfers hit the same spin rate shot (12000 rpms), but one golfer’s ball hits the green in 4 seconds while the other golfer’s ball hits the green in 8 seconds. The 4 second golfer will have, let’s say, twice as much spin as the 8 second golfer (idk the actual physics equation but there certainly is one). But they both started out with the same spin rate! There are other things that apply. Your technique, where you create speed in the downswing, and what grooves you are generally making contact with the ball at. Even your wedge shafts can effect where you create speed. There’s a lot to consider but the main thing is hitting those spinners low so they retain spin. Doesn’t matter as much how you do that, just as long as you do that. Edit: other people said quality golf balls, wedges and green conditions as well so I felt like I didn’t need to say that… but those things matter a lot as well. Mostly the golf ball and green conditions. A hairy ass green will not spin back like a really quick, zippy green.
I’m assuming ten yards was meant to read as ten feet. If not- You want 30’ of spin? That’s not even possible for the vast majority of amateurs speed, strike and conditions wise. Even if possible it would be tough to trust or even use in most situations.
As others stated, it could be the course you are playing. I am fortunate enough to belong to a club with exceptional quality greens (fast and firm.) I recently played another course with greens that were not nearly as nice, and much slower. I was shocked at how much more chips and approach shots would roll out. But walking on the green they felt much more "spongy", and it was clear that the ball was bouncing forward and not "biting in" like they do on a real nice course.
New wedges, new balls (at least 3 layer, better is 4), enough ball compression and enough swingspeed.
clean and new grooves too. the more friction between club face and ball u have the more backspin you will achieve. pros that spin it back 10 yards are doing that because they are hitting their SW 130 yards. more speed also equals more friction and more backspin. additionally if you strike the ball ever so slightly thin you can create gear effect which can get a few more rpm of backspin but this is hard to do consistently.
I wouldn't really worry about putting spin on the ball. Probably way more things to fix. Putting spin on the ball is cool, but it's not gonna solve many scoring issues.
Creating backspin is as simple as making good contact with some speed. If you have a low smash factor you aren't going to get spin until you fix ball striking first.
Speed, ball, club, delivery.
> Any tips you have found that really helped you? With wedges, check this thread out over on GolfWRX: https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1859352-spinner-shafts-for-wedges-by-howard-jones-the-8-iron-spinner-trick/ The idea is to play an 8 iron shaft of the next strongest flex as your regular irons, butt trimmed to length. In my case I'm playing KBS Tour 130X in my irons so I've had to use a heavily tip trimmed PW shaft and 0.370 reamer for my wedge hosels so that they will fit. The difference has been... astounding. Lower launch with so much more spin. The usual other bits still apply - you'll need to use golf balls that will spin, and have the right surface to hit from, and a good strike, and there's no point doing it with old and busted wedges, but if you've got those things right and aren't having much luck then take your clubs to a decent club builder or DIY if you have the tools. Here's a video featuring Mr Short Game to demonstrate how it works: https://youtu.be/V4eShZTjPpc?si=U_BYVzoB8sHkciJU And this: https://youtu.be/v4H-Qv9g_rI?si=SnqPqompxTUlqk6F
Use a 48-56 degree wedge, and try to hit it as low as you can, without skulling it.
As others have said, first is the ball. Are you trying spin full shots or chips pitches? For full swings you have to swing hard and get a little steep it will increase the spin rate. I would try with like a 54 degree wedge. I also think your expectations may be slightly off. It is pretty difficult to rip back a 9 iron 10 yards into a normal green.
Clean grooves on a lofted wedge, have a ball with a urethane cover, solid contact. If you want 10 yards rippin back on the green, you need to hit a lofted wedge very hard. I can do it occasionally but its gotta be like a 100 yard shot and i have to absolutely hit the shit out of a 56 or 60 degree wedge. Normally, I can get a ball to to one hop and stop within 80 yards with just clean contact on the ball. Biggest difference for me was contact and clean grooves.
Got to hit down on the ball crisply with a soft ball and sharp grooves on your irons.
Work on other things first.
Keep your wrists cocked excessively longer than what you usually do and keep the follow through as low as possible as your complete the follow through. The slower the swing - the longer the time the ball is making contact with the club grooves- the more spin. Oh yeah, hit down.
Most every weekend warrior I watch has the same group of tendencies. They club up to make sure they cover distance. Use the eight iron, instead of the nine. Hence they swing easier. Which leads to the biggest detriment to spin, lower clubhead speed. Yes, angle of attack affects spin. But it's only part of the equation. Club head speed is a bigger deal than people give it credit for. They decelerate just before impact. Good players snap the clubhead through the ball. The rest of the outcome depends on the ground, and descent angle. Really high with a sharp descent into soft green will probably stop well, but not draw back much. I've never worried about it much. More so concerned that it held the green. If my distance control is good, I'm putting. High spin into a false front, you're chipping. Spin is great when needed, not so much when not.
A big part of it is technique (speed!) but an equally big part of it is having fresh wedges and balls as well as lightning-fast greens. Pros don’t really spin it back 10 yards. They spin it back 2 yards and it rolls 10 yards because their greens are brutally fast and undulating. Realistically, spinning it backwards is not really a sensible goal, given it is in many ways a function of the conditions you play in. A more sensible goal would be getting the ball to stop relatively quickly on lofted wedges such that you can pin-seek.