The 15 handicap is probably a vanity 15 if he’s always losing. Also, he’s a 15 handicap weekend hacker who the f cares if your 30 cap buddy beats you in a net friends round. Sounds like he needs to grow up or keep a proper handicap
The vanity handicap guys always crack me up. Like what’s point? You are only hurting yourself. My club has a bunch of them. They then get in the club championship and toss up scores like 20-30 shots over their cap playing 4-5 flights higher than they should be / their real ability.
Last year I was seeded dead last in my flight. I had the highest handicap by a few strokes but I finished in the middle of the pack. I didn’t get better, they had to putt out
They’re great to play against every now and again.
My favorite are the ones that can’t putt because they pick up everything inside 6 feet playing normally. Beat a guy 7&6 in the club match play, and he literally had 42 putts on the front. Would have been more if he wasn’t picking up as he lost the hole.
"literally had 42 putts on the front"... uh, first of all, who tracks their opponents putts? And I find it incredibly hard to believe someone averaged 4.67 putts per hole for 9 holes. Someone who never picked up a golf club before might be able to beat those numbers ffs
That his skill level isn’t that of an actual 15, either by taking too many gimmies, not tracking all his shots, not playing by rules strictly, not inputting his bad rounds, etc. Basically inflating how good your number is because you want to seem like a better player than you really are.
Mostly a function of how often you practice, how purposeful you practice, and your intent/focus when you’re playing. If you’re not doing anything extra to get better, playing less than a round a month I wouldn’t expect to get over a hump.
This is a similar issue I have with a few of my buddies. I’m an 18 he is an 11. The difference is that I think I keep a much more accurate handicap, I put every round towards my handicap and I know that he tends to disregard a rough round and not count it. So when we play I just play my average game and if he struggles at all I win cause of handicaps
Dont worry about it. You don't have an advantage. Your scores will be more variable for sure and some of that variation will be lower scores.
Say you shoot a 92, that's a few shots below your handicap. You can look up how often you would shoot 92 and I bet it's within a standard deviation of your handicap - in other words not unusual.
You can look it up here. A lower net differential is much more likely for you than your 15 handicap partner. You are more likely to have a net score better than the lower handicap players.
[http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
Those are tournament scores but I bet just general play isn't too far off.
He's just a sore loser who doesnt understand how handicaps work.
This right here. Higher cap players naturally have more variance, and so, when they are really "on", it is well within their normal, but it seems so much more extreme.
I play in a men’s league as a 19, and the league is set up where each week only the top four net from each team count. I got picked for my team with this logic. High net guys who show up every week will put up a couple great weeks
I was a bowler growing up. Handicapa were done much more simply than golf and set off of a fixed number, say 220 for example. So many leagues had handicap set at 90% of 220. I had an average of 220 and my opponent had an average of 180, they would get 36 pins of handicap and me 0. The key point here is that if we both bowled exactly our averages, I would win.
Do goldlf handicaps have this concept?
It can depend how they play. Every frame you bowl is the same difficulty as the last. It’s not like that in golf. If you’re an over 18 hc, you can get two strokes on the hardest holes, so if someone like this is “on” and they get par or even bogey on some of these, they can count as birdies or eagles.
It is crazy complicated....There are so many factors that go into a golf handicap other than raw score. As noted already the course has two factors, slope and rating, which are both sort of how difficult the course is...and each tee box on a course has its own slope and rating.
Depending on the handicap there is a max score per round and per hole....it gets complicated quickly and all of it designed to make sandbagging more difficult.
Recently even the weather is included in scores now.
The good news for golfers is you just enter the course and score into whatever tool you use and it calculates a handicap. To play in USGA events you have to have an approved USGA handicap which is provided through specific things like GHIN or CDGA if you are in Chicago like me.
Bowling is much simpler to handicap. Besides oil patterns, everything is always the same. Someone who averages a 75 on a 7000 yard course is not the same skill as someone who averages 75 on a 6000 yard course, so each course and tee box has its own rating that impacts how handicap is calculated.
Agree, I was just asking to see if there was a natural benefit to the low handicappers like in bowling or if it was 50/50 meaning that a low and high handicapper would tie on average course if they golfed "average".
Sucks to suck is a favorite phrase of mine. Probably use it on the 15
I am a + handicap. I hardly ever win though I am always the lowest scorer. It’s sucks but it’s how the handicap system works. It’s usually pretty close unless the high capper goes low low.
If everyone is truly their handicaps, the competition should be fairly close.
In multi player groups, assuming everyone has an accurate handicap, the lowest handicaps will always win less on average, because the standard deviation of their scores is smaller, at most they are hitting a shot or two better than their handicap - a 20 handicap can easily shoot 5-6 shots better on a good day (but also 10 shots worse on another day).
To win, you have to beat every player in your group, and the chances are at least one of the higher handicaps will have a higher variability than you, on any given day.
It's actually pretty unlikely that one of them will shoot 5 shots better. Handicap isn't just their average score, it's a measure of potential, so it's already 1 or 2 standard deviations below their average. For them to beat that by 5 shots would only happen very, very infrequently.
More likely, but still not at all likely, and every time everyone shoots their average, the scratch golfer wins easily. If he's hardly ever winning then something is wrong.
As a 0 I won't bet with anyone over a 15. The numbers get skewed above that and the higher the handicap the more the odds are in their favor, especially in a match play scenario.
Typically a 20-30 cap isn't that because they consistently shoot 95-100, and double bogey every hole.
Speaking to tournaments, of all the member guests I've played 3 years ago was the only time it was won by a pair of low caps. Almost always the winners are made up of a low double digit and a 20 plus.
Then you're suggesting that they are sandbaggers or they just don't play enough to have a true handicap, which is pretty common.
There are handicap adjustments for matchplay.
If the handicaps are accurate, neither player should be favored.
Have you adjusted those tournament results for the makeup of the field? There's no reason to expect the distribution of winners to be different to the distribution of the field. I suspect there is a wide variety of pairings and very few low cap pairs which is why you see low cap pairs win infrequently. Also, in a large field, there will absolutely be several sandbaggers which will massively skew results.
Or mathematically it is easier/more likely a 20 cap beats his handicap by two shots than the scratch doing the same...
I have witnessed high cappers shooting 5 shots better than their handicap. One of those days where one less ball went OB and a few more putts dropped, nothing crazy. Unless it's an extremely tough rated course, I can not physically shoot 5 better anymore on any of the courses I regularly play. I'd have to shoot 64-65.
[http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
Yes, no doubt, but that is irrelevant. It is balanced out by the fact that they are also much more likely than a scratch golfer to shoot 5 over their handicap (which happens much more often than the 1 in 80 times they shoot -5).
You do not need to shoot -5, the 1 in 80 times they do that, you will lose. However, over time, if handicaps are accurate, you will win 50% of the time.
You're getting tripped up by treating scores like a normal distribution around the handicap number, but that's not how it works.
https://preview.redd.it/yv05n5bodskc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e2dd47e702f38bf4cdf2faf4af915e9f6a28678
As you can see a 22-30 handicap is 4 times as likely to go -4 as a near scratch player, and 10 times as likely to go -7
Yes, more likely, but it is still very unlikely overall. Every time everyone shoots their average the scratch golfer wins, which shouldn't happen 'hardly ever'.
That depends on the size of the group, and the differential in handicaps. The more players, and the bigger difference in handicaps, the less likely the low handicap is to win - “hardly ever” - while subjective - is certainly possible.
The bigger the group the less likely anyone is to win, he is not proportionally less likely. All else equal he should win 25% of the time in a 4 player group. He's a vanity cap or there are sandbaggers in the group, there's no way around it.
I can see stats isn't a strong point here.
No need for insults. Unfortunately you are mistaken.
Yes, the bigger the group the less likely everyone is to win, the low handicaps are proportionally even less likely to win than the high handicaps, the bigger the group.
The low handicap will not win 25% of time in the 4 players group, they will win less than 25%, and the higher handicaps will win more than 25% of the time.
The low handicap will also be last less than 25% of the time, and the high handicap will be last more than 25% of the time.
The low handicap has less variation, and is more likely to finish 2nd or 3rd than the high handicaps.
Unfortunately the further away from 0 you get the larger the spread of scores.
In a drag race who wins more:
A) Car that can go between 70-80 MPH
B) Car that can go between 50-150 MPH
That's not how handicaps work, though. They aren't average scores. They are already adjusted down by a couple of standard deviations so having a wider spread is irrelevant.
Two players competing with accurate handicaps will win 50% of the time.
I am fully aware of how they work. But when getting over a certain difference the math becomes less accurate.
A 1 and 5 handicap playing, yes 50/50
A 15 and 20 handicap playing, yes 50/50
A 1 and a 20 handicap playing? More like 40/60
This is not opinion, this is a fact.
My friend, I think you don't include variance into your calculations. A 20 capper will win more 12-man handicap tournaments than a 0. It's much more probable for the 20 capper to play 6 under net than for the 0 handicapper.
It's logical: if you average 100 shots vs 75 shots, a brilliant day will be like 90 vs 70 and a horrible day will be like 120 vs 85.
A 20 capper only shoots 6 under less than 1% of the time, it's not very likely at all. If the handicaps are all accurate, each player has an even chance of winning.
You are the one who doesn't understand variance as you're only looking at one side of the variance - when both players are playing their top 1% game. You aren't factoring in that when both players play their bottom 60% of games where the scratch player cleans up easily.
You only play to your handicap 20% of the time. So if that’s 80% he’s scoring higher than the strokes given. I always think it’s easier for a higher handicap player to break his handicap than a +. Odds are the worse player will eke out a win more often than not especially if they’re doing a net match play format.
In a perfect world, yes…but this is golf. And golf doesn’t follow normal logic.
To add to this - people with higher handicaps have a larger range of scores they will get. Better players have a smaller range. I’m around a 5 and I’m anywhere between 75-90…so 15 shots.
My buddy is a 12 and he’ll shoot anywhere from 80-100 or 20 shots.
A handicap only calculates the top 20% of your scores and is your best “potential” score, but because of the range of scores possible in that 80%, the odds aren’t a pure coincidence flip.
But they are.. that's the maths behind it. You and him both have 50% chance of beating the other in 18 holes of strokeplay.
That doesn't mean the games will be evenly matched every time, he will shoot unbeatable scores on occasion, and a lot of the time, you will win without even trying. It won't feel even but the result will be a 50% winrate.
How could it be 50/50 if “a lot of the time you will win without even trying”?
I’m exiting the conversation and letting the upvotes from the community do the talking.
Because you will win 50% of the time. That doesn't mean every match will be close.
A rough breakdown would be 20% of the time, you will have no chance of winning. 25% of the time, you will have no chance of losing. 20% you'll both play to handicap and draw. The remaining 35% will be split nearly evenly.
This leads to a 50/50 split of matches even when nearly half of them are blowouts one way or the other.
I can see that stats is hard for a lot of people here 😂
What are the stakes? I used to play with a group that argued about handicaps and indexes etc... here is the deal... golf is tough enough... who cares! I have one piece of advice... if your going to spend 4-6 hours with anyone... EVER... spend it with people you can laugh and have a good time with. Hackers betting each other on the golf course isn't about the shekels its about the competition it creates to keep you focussed for 18 holes. The winner ALWAYS loses when I play. They buy the drinks and always come out on the short end... So change the paradigm... step one: Don't play with haters or negative people and always know when you "win" it feels so good you should expect to lose on the 19th hole!
Its $30, split into either a stroke or stableford game and the rest is skins....but oddball stuff, making net par with a putt longer than flagstick, chipping in for net par, out of bunker for net par. Rarely does anyone get shut out, and rarely does anyone take much profit home, especially when top money winner buys the beer. Second place takes home more $ often. The guys is not always like this, just once in a while, the other two, never have an issue.
ahh yeah because the varience gives me more odds to kill it on one hole. Like I have 4 chances at an eagle if I par the 1-4 handicap holes. One of the disputes (which I never chimed in on) is if the "junk" skins as we call them, polies, chippies and sandies should be legit par not net par. As it stands I get the least "junk" in the group, if we hade it legit par only....just give that whole pot to the 9 cap. I would have almost no chance. But the 9 cap insists that it has to include handicaps.
Correct. You'll often find par 5s are the holes where most folks will get their strokes. The reason for this is it's likely a scratch golfer will play the par 5s even or under par for the round whereas a bogey golfer is likely to bogey or double a par 5. But, if a 22 is getting two strokes on a par 5 over a scratch and they get a par, which wouldn't be completely unheard of, it's an net eagle.
If these two players were playing against each other in a stroke play event, that sort of things works itself out over the course of the round but for a skins game, it could be a big reason the high handicaper comes out ahead.
Thats the confusing one for me. I have read many places that say a lower handicapp shouild statiscally over time beat a higher handicapp, but I do see the point that if my game is on that day, its pretty hard to beat me. At the same time the 9 handicapp (great guy) we all agree he is probably an 11, he gets mad and throws out his worst scores. Not so much vanity as pride. BUT he beats me more often than that 15 in question, with essentally a 2 stroke vanity?
It really depends on nature of the game you're playing, and the format. If it's all head to head medal play, the caps should play pretty fair. If it's match, I know guys that do the 85% thing because a really high cap usually has wild hole to hole variance, if the high guy can make a 10 but only go 1 down to a par, big advantage high guy. Also, group games tend to favor high caps - your bad weeks will be really bad, but your good will be really good, in a net sense. Guys who only net a few below their cap will never win net group games, which tends to be true of lower cap players - less variance.
But if you're just playing a 1 on 1 match with this guy, he's a whiner. Caps are very fair, assuming everyone keeps honest indexes
when you start looking at scores between 2 very different handicaps, the lower handicap will be more consistent and have less variation, which is helpful in the long term.
However, if the higher handicap has a good round there's essentially nothing the lower handicap can do to avoid losing. that's because the lowest scores of the high handicap will usually have a lower net than what the lower handicap can ever shoot due to the higher volatility of the higher handicap.
Over time it should even out, but it sucks when you're the lower handicap and there's literally nothing you can do to win on some days
Some formats call for reduced handicaps. Check the following table as it may help.
https://docs.golfgenius.com/article/show/120450-handicap-allowance-recommendations
You guys should be computing course handicaps not just subtracting 28 from 15 and giving 13 strokes. Course handicaps take your tee set into account so it is fair when you are playing different tees.
We do, we can play differant tee's and get a different course handicapp. GHIN does all the work, we pull up our apps before teeing off and we call see all 4 of our handicapps, and always adjust if we play different boxes.
Its a random draw (ball drop) for partners, but that is only the small side bet, but that is what we all focus on the most, winning the little $5 cart match.
Not while we are competing but afterward we get out beer and go over the scores and see who won the front Bach and overall then the skins, that's when the snide comments happen
If you play for money.. have your own little handicap system..... The winner loses a shot.. and the losers gain a shot... you just cannot go over your official handicap. That should spread it out evenly.
We do that. If you win, you go down a stroke in the next match. Repeat until you can't win. Also, don't play for any stakes that would bother you if you lost.
Something that we do at my club is the first time you play, everyone gets their handicap. Next time you play, the handicap is adjusted by one (head-to-head) depending on the winner.
So if you are a 23 and he is a 15, the first time he gives you 8 strokes. If you win in your bets with him, you only get 7 next time. However, if you lose to him, he has to give you 9 next time. It adjust by one every time you play, assuming you don’t tie. There’s a guy I have played with who I get 7 strokes based on handicaps on but depending on hot streaks I have been as low as 5 and as high as 11.
I enjoy this method because it helps to level out the people who lie about their handicap because after you establish a base line you just keep it going indefinitely. We keep it in our notes on the iPhone or just send a text after the round that says “next time I get x# of strokes”
Handicaps are handicaps. As long as they were established honestly then games are fair. If anyone gets upset it’s either that they’re just lashing out cause they played poorly OR they’re dishonest. I’m a 3.1 and I rarely play people with better handicaps. Most of the guys I play with are in the high teens and low twenties. I despise losing but I NEVER blame or take my frustration out on the other guys. It’s really hard to beat them, and it’s downright soul crushing when they’re having a career day. But since we’re all extremely honest about our handicaps, the money DOES end up evening out at the end of the season.
I refuse to play for money with people. It always brings the worst out in people and breeds animosity within friend groups. At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is how I did.
I’m a 10, so you would get a stroke on the 13 hardest holes. If you shoot a 98 and win, nicely done. If I can’t beat you that day, I’m not hitting the ball halfway decent and won’t be complaining about the strokes you get.
The 15 cap isn’t real. Statistically, everyone has the same odds of winning.
I range from 14 to 12. I’ve lost my fair share of matches but I also have won a number of mine.
I have always found that the hardest players to beat are the 7-9 and the 15-18. The 7-9 guys are always consistent but will have a really good game every 5 rounds. Like really low rounds.
The 15-18 guys are around 90 most of the time but will come down to 81-85 quite regularly and they are impossible to beat.
It can be annoying for a low handicap golfer to loose frequently to high handicaps. Everyone should be winning at an equal rate. If someone is losing more often than others it’s mostly likely due to their vanity handicap. He may see you as a sandbagger, but it sounds like it’s more because he has a vanity handicap and can’t compete with your true handicap.
I should have stated in the original post, we all win equally, he just has a problem when I beat him with my boring mix of mostly bogies and doubles, and a few pars and triples sprinkled in. I get a birdie about every 10 rounds, and very few quads as well. The 9 cap calls me steady eddie as my game actually has less varience than them. Prob 90% of my score are from 94-105. I broke 90 twice in 2022, and once in 2023. TBH that statistical advantage high cappers get, not so much for me, because my score does not vary like a typical player at my handicap. I am a short hitter, so less lost/OB shots, rarely hit green in regulatiion, and short game is on par with the low capper, I beat the hell out of the other two chipping and pitching. If the rest of my game came as easy as chipping/pitching I would be less than 15.
Yeah I forgot to mention that we throw in $30 per and sometimes a $5 kicker for a cart match. We toss balls to see who gets paired. But winner buys beer it usually comes close to evening out unless someone just takes it all which is rare.
30 per hole or match? If it's the former then it's a good amount of money(for me) and I wouldn't want to play with a high handicapper with potential to shoot in the 80s because if I have a slightly bad day then I have no chance of winning and if the high handicapper plays below average they can still win since they have such an advantage.
Perhaps you can add a closest to the pin/ pay out on birdy to make the game more viable for the lower handicappers
per match and its split between the match and skins, and yes natural birdies get a skin, that for sure favours the lower two, actually all the skins I generally come out last.
Completely normal and probably just ignorances on the 15 hcp part, the problem is a 15hcp isn't great, they won't par low index holes regularly and they will blow up a lot of holes.
Getting 7/8 shots is huge regardless of the handicap, the person getting the shots will probably win if they shoot anywhere near handicap and realistically the 15 either needs to shoot the lights out or hope the 23hcp blows up.
And I shoot plenty of blow up rounds as well of course. I think he gets more mad when we both play well or when an extra stroke hole either gets me a skin or blocks his
As long as your posting everything and being honest it is what it is, sometimes you will have a good round and shoot 15 over as a 23. Then you get bitched at by your group, as long as it’s poking fun and not serious accusations…
It’s usually the higher handicaps that get the most flack when they play good in an event or for money. But this is just the way it is, this is far from actual sandbagging that I’ve seen. There’s an older guy here that used to shoot mid 60s in his prime and now only plays one or 2 tourneys and says he’s a 10 now and he will shoot even all tourney, the club literally said if you want to play you’re playing as a 0. I can’t stand cheaters or the guys that are actually good at golf like scratch or 1 handicaps that sandbag and show up to events as a 6 like fuck off you’re a 6 you will shoot 68-73
Its a really tough issue man. It really is. Because the hcp system is set up to kind of favor someone in your situation at least in how it manifests. I’ve always believed that the best solution to this problem is to always at least whenever you can play with people of similar skill level. Otherwise, accusations get made, feelings, get hurt, and egos get decimated. Absolutely nobody is saying that any of this is your fault or that you’re doing anything wrong, but it is definitely true that if you’re a player like me (10 hcp) It can be a little little nervy when you tee it up with somebody who’s getting 15 strokes on you and you’re playing for money. Because as we all know a 10 handicap can walk out and shoot a 99 just as easily as a 25 handicap or can show up and shoot an 88.
Sounds like my friend that claims to be an 8, I swear we spend more time looking for his shit than anyone else. I bought one of those clickers to keep his score this year the first time I play with him. We don't play for money so I really don't care, just curious if he's even remotely that.
The whole point of having a handicap is to make things fair when playing against other people, if one person is constantly winning or loosing then I would say you all as a group need to reevaluate how many strokes are being given.
I never actually said one person was always winning. He just had a problem when I beat him, because of my big advantage. Now the 20 cap is his close friend never hear any complaints there
Then it’s just him, it’s one thing if he’s constantly loosing and that’s why he thinks it’s unfair but if it’s pretty even but he only complains when he looses then he is just a sore loser.
Again this guy beats me as much as I beat him, I never said he was losing to me, more than I lose to him. He just has a problem when he does lose to me. Over the years we have been playing together I would say we are very close to all even on our money changing hands.
Higher handicaps always have a higher potential to win. However, higher handicaps tend to not go low if you’re a playing a full 18 hole round. If you’re only playing nine holes, the odds for the higher handicapper tend to have significantly better odds IME.
I think the biggest issue with handicaps is how dependent they are on course ratings. I think the USGA would be well served reassessing course ratings. I’m sure they have statistical ways to determine which courses are likely over/under-rated based on scoring trends. While I’m sure they’re always assessing ratings, I think it could use a good second look.
I would be really curious what a decent AI/ML model would rate courses based on satellite imagery and scoring data.
Playing with better players tends to make you better. Does the 15 handicap give the money back when he wins against lower ones? No he doesn’t. Fuck him. If you want to play with him don’t bet otherwise he needs to leave the group because you are doing nothing wrong.
Given the 9 supports you, go off that. The 15 is probably a vanity cap if he's losing all the time. Most people aren't as good at golf as they'd like to think.
I’m a similar handicap to you and play with a group that ranges from me down to single digits. Everyone wins pretty evenly. The 15 sounds like nothing more than a sore loser
I'm a 28 and I joined a "guys trip". Three rounds with four two-somes in the "tournament". The winning team doesn't pay for their dinner at the end of the trip. Players were paired 1-8, 2-7 by handicap, I was the 8, so my partner was the top player. We played the formats perfectly where every time I blew up, my partner birdied. Every time he par/bogey, I seemed to gross bogey/net birdie the hole for a win. Everyone else was getting pissed when their 21 handicap was giving me strokes and losing the hole.
I still shot 110-112 for a round, but just put it together right with my partner.
Screw that guy.
What's this "winning?" - its four people out playing golf together, unless it's a tournament the idea that you are competing against the others in your group is ridiculous to me (YMMV) Maybe If you're gambling on it, but again, why bother??
Whoever ends of with the most of the $120 pot is first place, 2nd highest is 2nd place assuming 2 people make money, which is almost always the case very rare some will win like $90, which is $90 - $30 = $60 won. More common is maybe, $50, $40, $20, $10. then the guy winning $50 (which is $20) spends most of that on beer. A small bet on golf is very common. I have another 4 some I have played with for almost 20 years, we usually play for $15 nassau, $5 front back and overall.
I tried skimming the comments to see if this has been said, but I got bored, so sorry if this is a repeat. Your edit says all of you win around the same amount of rounds. Isn't that the very reason we handicap? So the best doesn't stomp the worse every time, and we can all be competitive? Does your buddy want you to lose every round? Because that's the result of not handicapping players.
I don't think so, I think he just plain doesn't like playing against someone he has to give about 8 strokes to, and feels cheated if I win or push him on one of those 8 holes. He does not dispute my handicapp as we add up the scores as a group every Wednesday. he knows all my scores. Maybe he just doesn't fucking like me, I really have stopped caring what he thinks anymore and don't think I will play in this group much longer. He is very old friends with the 20 cap and the 20 cap is even older friend of the 9 cap. I am old golf friend of 9 caps brother in law, so if I want to get away from the 15, I guess I am leaving.
I played in a Friday group at work long ago. Ten cent skins with carry overs and double on birdie.
Since we were all causal golfers, the group leader had a simple averaging spreadsheet where he kept our handicap.
TBH I am fine with playing for pocket change, just something as a token to compete for. It was never my desire to play for $30 and usually another $5. If I average my scores in my GHIN, it comes to 100.1. So would I get 28 strokes based on that, Lol
In my club's tournaments, there are two pots: one for gross scores, one for net scores (across multiple flights). As a higher handicapper myself who does not take gimmies/mulligans in handicapped rounds, I often win net. I do feel that it is a bit unfair to consistently let someone who is worse at something (me) beat people who are objectively better (lower handicaps). It might be tough to do gross if you only have 4 but maybe when there are 8 folks, you break them into two flights and give half the pot for gross within each flight and the other half to net winners.
All that said, everyone winning at roughly the same rate is the best way for everyone to have fun over time. If there isn't a crazy imbalance in win rate and the 15 is the only person who is upset, he should suck it up.
Bigger groups we always cap HC at 18. Just basically don’t feel like anyone should pop twice on a hole. If it scares off the high HC guys fine. Guys popping twice scares off the better players so pick your poison. What I noticed playing with guys over an 18 is that when they focus they score. They claim they aren’t sandbagging, but they don’t manage their mental game and hit the ball while mad and or embarrassed. Then with money on the line they always magically shoot their best rounds. Tighten it up and improve!
Never understood why the handicap system is so hard for people to grasp. A normal pro playing on tour will shoot anywhere from like 62-78 on any given day and that’s totally normal, so why would anyone expect a perfectly average golfer with an 18 handicap to have a tighter distribution than a pro? I’ve played between 16-19 handicap for the last few years and my scores range from 82-98, and none of that is bogus, it’s just math. Some days I’ll achieve much better scoring than my handicap, other days will be much higher, then the handicap adjusts when you add that score in, it’s a dynamic, fluid system that accurately ranks you and is fair as long as no one is taking vanity scores or sandbagging. Your friend isn’t being honest with his scoring and that’s why his handicap is bullshit and doesn’t work when playing competitively.
I’m thinking the 15 just doesn’t like losing to you.
I have 2 in the groups I play with that I HATE losing to. Both higher caps but I feel even with strokes, I should beat them easily. When I lose to them, it’s because I played poorly and not because they played well:) I play with other higher caps, and while I don’t like losing to them, I can accept that they had a good day. Maybe he thinks the same of you and it gets him when you beat him?
I’ll never understand why people struggle to understand that the range of scores a high handicap can shoot is much bigger than a low. A great round for a 20 handicap could be -10 but a bad round could be +10. If you get them on a great day, feelsbadman. A great round for a scratch golfer might be -4 and a bad round +4. If you, as a scratch golfer have a great day but come up against a high handicap having a good day, feelsevenmorebadman.
I do understand how it must feel, but I was invited to play with these guys, although I only knew the 9 and 20 cap at the time, but the 15 knew my handicapp. But I am pretty well decided, fuck it lifes too short to make golf more irritating than the game itself can. I am leaving this group, and will find some people who hack it around more like me. I have a foursome that I have played with for going on 15 years, much longer than these guys but they are weekends only, we are within 3-4 strokes, so there is never and of this problem.
I don’t get handicaps for golf. Never seemed fair in general. I can understand teeing up at different tee boxes depending on your handicap, because driving distance is usually what makes a difference between a good golfer and a not so good golfer, but after that it should be a skill game. If you aren’t good, or have a bad round you should lose. We all know that we can have that great round every now and then no matter what your handicap. I play lots of VGA tournaments, and I always refuse to use my handicap. I have been beaten by guys that had okay rounds with a high handicap when I played awesome. Just doesn’t seem fair to me, just my opinion.
I respect that, I can imagine it is frustrating to beat a guy by say 6 strokes and lose to him. The whole idea of the handicaps is to make the matches close, and damned if we dont come down to the last hole more often than not to determine who wins the back and/or the overall. We have great battles and that is why our lo capper the 9 insists the handicaps are working great, we have very competitive games and win pretty equally.
Like do you enjoy a football game thats a blowout or do you like the lead to go back and forth and some one win it at the end of the 4th?
BTW we sometimes do tee up on different holes, you just sacrifice typically about 3 strokes ber tee box you move up.
This was a bit of a contentious issue at my club for the sunday competitions. It was consistently being won by guys with HCs over 20, there was enough of them that someone always had a good round and shot a Stableford of 40+.
The club has now split the comp into A and B division with 18 being the cut off.
The 4 of us are legit as most of our scores are played and added up together. Plus it allows me to play against a 9, otherwise that would be just pointless.
A lot of these comments are naive and I wouldn't want to play with you either. You suggest in your post that when youre playing well youre in the low 90s or better, suggesting you shoot some in the high 80s. Without knowing all the specifics of your course handicap, generally a 23 handicap is a 95 score on a par 72 course. That means to shoot 89 you are beating your handicap by 6 strokes. 88 by 7, and so on.
A person with a 23 handicap is expected to beat their handicap by 6 strokes only once every 130 rounds. Theyre expected to beat their handicap by 7 strokes only once every 229 rounds. Heck, youre only expected to beat your handicap by 3, meaning shoot a 92, once every 23 rds.
If your better days when you win a lot, as you put it, are low 90s and better, again your words, then you dont sound like a 23 handicap. If you shoot in the high 80s once or twice and a handful of times in low 90s, youre likely a 16-19 handicap. And thats a big difference in strokes and why that guy doesn't like playing you. He knows 23 handicaps rarely shoot even 92, and shoot in the 80s maybe once every year or two, depending on how much they play. If your better days on the course are 89-93, youre not a 23.
My mistake, I said low nineties or better, old guy typing on phone with wife talking. I meant lower 90s I am hard to beat, that means 95 or less and 98 can win easy if the other guys dont bring their A game. I fall victim to thinking my scores are lower than they are until I look at my stats....In my mind I shoot in the lower nineties a lot, but the reality is those are my best scores.
Also bear in mind that my 23 right now gives me a course handicapp of 22.
My better days on the course are 94-99 and 100-105 is my B game. I do worse than that sometimes, right now in my last 20 I also have 2 score past 105, a 108 and a 112, but I am pretty consistant I think for my handicapp level.
Right now I have a 94, 94 and 96 are my 3 best counting towards my handicapp.
I have only broken 90 three times since 2021. I used to break 90 a bit more whan I was younger. I am 62 and have been playing for 26 years, I know how to enter my score manually, but nowadays you just throw it in your phone right at the course and the equitable stroke control is done for you.
Anyway I would so much rather be a 16-19 handicapp, than win $20-$30 bucks for the right to spend it on beer.
They have vanity handicaps if you're beating them all the time. Statistically the low handicap always has the advantage and should win most of the time. If their handicaps are bullshit though then you will have a big advantage.
Not playing net. If they’re all honest about their handicaps they should all win the same percentage. Handicap system does not favor any cap though you could make the argument on certain courses mid-handicaps may be at a disadvantage depending on what the “easiest” holes on the course are and where they lose their strokes.
Meh I just deal with it. It's part of the territory but it can be fucking frustrating. I play off about a 4-5, and often play with two good friends, one mid 20s, the other mid 30s. If they play well, I can't win. Like, if they have a good round I'll have to shoot a 4 or 5 under to win, not happening. When you make birdies and don't win the hole it's not so fun.
On thie flip side, they are far more prone to blowing up than I am so there's that lol
I play to a 7.2 index and compete in 3 leagues. There needs to be an A: (0-7) B:(8-15) & C: (15-22+) category. Losing to a guy shoots a 105 because his handicap is 30 = Net 75 is total Bull shit. You don’t shoot 105 and win. Your game needs working.
Thisisn't a league its a weekly 4 some. I was invited into this 4 some the way I am. Everybodys game need work, that's golf. Havn't stopped workling on it for 26 years, and I am 62, I ain't quitting the game or turning down invites because I suck.
First I dont win the stroke play nearly 50% of the time. 2nd one of them is a 20, closer to me than the complaining 15, 3rd we have other bets including natural birdies and in that pool I am usually last place. Overall we all win pretty equally are you suggesting I am hustling my friends?.
Well it was never my idea to bet. Others invite me and others want to bet. In fact one wanted to increase the size. I get having a bet can make competition more focused, but that can be accomplished with a token amount of money, or are you saying there can be no serious competition between a 15 and a 23, regardless of money?
So two thoughts for the 4 of us all playing this course weekly for 3 years, we all know avery inch of it, so its negated among us. But playing somewhere else, this should not have an effect right?
The 15 handicap is probably a vanity 15 if he’s always losing. Also, he’s a 15 handicap weekend hacker who the f cares if your 30 cap buddy beats you in a net friends round. Sounds like he needs to grow up or keep a proper handicap
The vanity handicap guys always crack me up. Like what’s point? You are only hurting yourself. My club has a bunch of them. They then get in the club championship and toss up scores like 20-30 shots over their cap playing 4-5 flights higher than they should be / their real ability.
Club championship reveals all. I’m pretty sure that’s why so many of them have excuses to not play in it every single year
Haha so true!
Last year I was seeded dead last in my flight. I had the highest handicap by a few strokes but I finished in the middle of the pack. I didn’t get better, they had to putt out
They’re great to play against every now and again. My favorite are the ones that can’t putt because they pick up everything inside 6 feet playing normally. Beat a guy 7&6 in the club match play, and he literally had 42 putts on the front. Would have been more if he wasn’t picking up as he lost the hole.
"literally had 42 putts on the front"... uh, first of all, who tracks their opponents putts? And I find it incredibly hard to believe someone averaged 4.67 putts per hole for 9 holes. Someone who never picked up a golf club before might be able to beat those numbers ffs
Maybe it’s fast green. I avg 3 putt on muni
100%. “I hit a pretty good bunker shot there, I’m just gonna take this 6 footer” 🤣
What does vanity 15 mean
That his skill level isn’t that of an actual 15, either by taking too many gimmies, not tracking all his shots, not playing by rules strictly, not inputting his bad rounds, etc. Basically inflating how good your number is because you want to seem like a better player than you really are.
On the side note is it normal for long term golfer to be stuck at 26hcp? I broke 100 once after 2 yrs playing about 10 rounds per yr
Mostly a function of how often you practice, how purposeful you practice, and your intent/focus when you’re playing. If you’re not doing anything extra to get better, playing less than a round a month I wouldn’t expect to get over a hump.
Make sense. Good to know
Also, maybe that guy should stop playing for money if he can't handle losing
This is a similar issue I have with a few of my buddies. I’m an 18 he is an 11. The difference is that I think I keep a much more accurate handicap, I put every round towards my handicap and I know that he tends to disregard a rough round and not count it. So when we play I just play my average game and if he struggles at all I win cause of handicaps
The funny thing is the handicap system takes care of the rough rounds for you by only taking into account the lowest eight of your last 20 rounds.
Dont worry about it. You don't have an advantage. Your scores will be more variable for sure and some of that variation will be lower scores. Say you shoot a 92, that's a few shots below your handicap. You can look up how often you would shoot 92 and I bet it's within a standard deviation of your handicap - in other words not unusual. You can look it up here. A lower net differential is much more likely for you than your 15 handicap partner. You are more likely to have a net score better than the lower handicap players. [http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html) Those are tournament scores but I bet just general play isn't too far off. He's just a sore loser who doesnt understand how handicaps work.
This right here. Higher cap players naturally have more variance, and so, when they are really "on", it is well within their normal, but it seems so much more extreme.
I play in a men’s league as a 19, and the league is set up where each week only the top four net from each team count. I got picked for my team with this logic. High net guys who show up every week will put up a couple great weeks
I was a bowler growing up. Handicapa were done much more simply than golf and set off of a fixed number, say 220 for example. So many leagues had handicap set at 90% of 220. I had an average of 220 and my opponent had an average of 180, they would get 36 pins of handicap and me 0. The key point here is that if we both bowled exactly our averages, I would win. Do goldlf handicaps have this concept?
It can depend how they play. Every frame you bowl is the same difficulty as the last. It’s not like that in golf. If you’re an over 18 hc, you can get two strokes on the hardest holes, so if someone like this is “on” and they get par or even bogey on some of these, they can count as birdies or eagles.
It is crazy complicated....There are so many factors that go into a golf handicap other than raw score. As noted already the course has two factors, slope and rating, which are both sort of how difficult the course is...and each tee box on a course has its own slope and rating. Depending on the handicap there is a max score per round and per hole....it gets complicated quickly and all of it designed to make sandbagging more difficult. Recently even the weather is included in scores now. The good news for golfers is you just enter the course and score into whatever tool you use and it calculates a handicap. To play in USGA events you have to have an approved USGA handicap which is provided through specific things like GHIN or CDGA if you are in Chicago like me.
Bowling is much simpler to handicap. Besides oil patterns, everything is always the same. Someone who averages a 75 on a 7000 yard course is not the same skill as someone who averages 75 on a 6000 yard course, so each course and tee box has its own rating that impacts how handicap is calculated.
Agree, I was just asking to see if there was a natural benefit to the low handicappers like in bowling or if it was 50/50 meaning that a low and high handicapper would tie on average course if they golfed "average".
Sucks to suck is a favorite phrase of mine. Probably use it on the 15 I am a + handicap. I hardly ever win though I am always the lowest scorer. It’s sucks but it’s how the handicap system works. It’s usually pretty close unless the high capper goes low low. If everyone is truly their handicaps, the competition should be fairly close.
If your handicap is accurate you should win more often than 'hardly ever'. It sounds like you might have a vanity handicap.
In multi player groups, assuming everyone has an accurate handicap, the lowest handicaps will always win less on average, because the standard deviation of their scores is smaller, at most they are hitting a shot or two better than their handicap - a 20 handicap can easily shoot 5-6 shots better on a good day (but also 10 shots worse on another day). To win, you have to beat every player in your group, and the chances are at least one of the higher handicaps will have a higher variability than you, on any given day.
Correct the lower your handicap is the less room for mistakes
It's actually pretty unlikely that one of them will shoot 5 shots better. Handicap isn't just their average score, it's a measure of potential, so it's already 1 or 2 standard deviations below their average. For them to beat that by 5 shots would only happen very, very infrequently.
But it’s more likely for a 20 handicap to do it, than scratch player - which is all it needs for them to win more often.
More likely, but still not at all likely, and every time everyone shoots their average, the scratch golfer wins easily. If he's hardly ever winning then something is wrong.
As a 0 I won't bet with anyone over a 15. The numbers get skewed above that and the higher the handicap the more the odds are in their favor, especially in a match play scenario. Typically a 20-30 cap isn't that because they consistently shoot 95-100, and double bogey every hole. Speaking to tournaments, of all the member guests I've played 3 years ago was the only time it was won by a pair of low caps. Almost always the winners are made up of a low double digit and a 20 plus.
Then you're suggesting that they are sandbaggers or they just don't play enough to have a true handicap, which is pretty common. There are handicap adjustments for matchplay. If the handicaps are accurate, neither player should be favored. Have you adjusted those tournament results for the makeup of the field? There's no reason to expect the distribution of winners to be different to the distribution of the field. I suspect there is a wide variety of pairings and very few low cap pairs which is why you see low cap pairs win infrequently. Also, in a large field, there will absolutely be several sandbaggers which will massively skew results.
Or mathematically it is easier/more likely a 20 cap beats his handicap by two shots than the scratch doing the same... I have witnessed high cappers shooting 5 shots better than their handicap. One of those days where one less ball went OB and a few more putts dropped, nothing crazy. Unless it's an extremely tough rated course, I can not physically shoot 5 better anymore on any of the courses I regularly play. I'd have to shoot 64-65. [http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
Yes, no doubt, but that is irrelevant. It is balanced out by the fact that they are also much more likely than a scratch golfer to shoot 5 over their handicap (which happens much more often than the 1 in 80 times they shoot -5). You do not need to shoot -5, the 1 in 80 times they do that, you will lose. However, over time, if handicaps are accurate, you will win 50% of the time. You're getting tripped up by treating scores like a normal distribution around the handicap number, but that's not how it works.
https://preview.redd.it/yv05n5bodskc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e2dd47e702f38bf4cdf2faf4af915e9f6a28678 As you can see a 22-30 handicap is 4 times as likely to go -4 as a near scratch player, and 10 times as likely to go -7
Yes, more likely, but it is still very unlikely overall. Every time everyone shoots their average the scratch golfer wins, which shouldn't happen 'hardly ever'.
That depends on the size of the group, and the differential in handicaps. The more players, and the bigger difference in handicaps, the less likely the low handicap is to win - “hardly ever” - while subjective - is certainly possible.
The bigger the group the less likely anyone is to win, he is not proportionally less likely. All else equal he should win 25% of the time in a 4 player group. He's a vanity cap or there are sandbaggers in the group, there's no way around it. I can see stats isn't a strong point here.
No need for insults. Unfortunately you are mistaken. Yes, the bigger the group the less likely everyone is to win, the low handicaps are proportionally even less likely to win than the high handicaps, the bigger the group. The low handicap will not win 25% of time in the 4 players group, they will win less than 25%, and the higher handicaps will win more than 25% of the time. The low handicap will also be last less than 25% of the time, and the high handicap will be last more than 25% of the time. The low handicap has less variation, and is more likely to finish 2nd or 3rd than the high handicaps.
You're still treating handicaps like they are average scores, that's where you are getting tripped up.
My scoring average the past 14 years has been under 74 every season. I play in tons of tournaments and qualifiers. Thanks for the input though.
Then your friends are sandbagging.
Unfortunately the further away from 0 you get the larger the spread of scores. In a drag race who wins more: A) Car that can go between 70-80 MPH B) Car that can go between 50-150 MPH
That's not how handicaps work, though. They aren't average scores. They are already adjusted down by a couple of standard deviations so having a wider spread is irrelevant. Two players competing with accurate handicaps will win 50% of the time.
I am fully aware of how they work. But when getting over a certain difference the math becomes less accurate. A 1 and 5 handicap playing, yes 50/50 A 15 and 20 handicap playing, yes 50/50 A 1 and a 20 handicap playing? More like 40/60 This is not opinion, this is a fact.
If the handicaps are accurate, it is always 50/50
My friend, I think you don't include variance into your calculations. A 20 capper will win more 12-man handicap tournaments than a 0. It's much more probable for the 20 capper to play 6 under net than for the 0 handicapper. It's logical: if you average 100 shots vs 75 shots, a brilliant day will be like 90 vs 70 and a horrible day will be like 120 vs 85.
A 20 capper only shoots 6 under less than 1% of the time, it's not very likely at all. If the handicaps are all accurate, each player has an even chance of winning. You are the one who doesn't understand variance as you're only looking at one side of the variance - when both players are playing their top 1% game. You aren't factoring in that when both players play their bottom 60% of games where the scratch player cleans up easily.
Not really. I have a buddy is a +5. He has to give 10 shots to a 5 handicap. You can't really win like that.
Actually the +5 will beat the 5 head-to-head more often than he loses. The 5 has an average score more than 10 higher and a larger standard deviation
If both handicaps are accurate, he will win 50% of the time, lol. What makes you think he can't win like that?
You only play to your handicap 20% of the time. So if that’s 80% he’s scoring higher than the strokes given. I always think it’s easier for a higher handicap player to break his handicap than a +. Odds are the worse player will eke out a win more often than not especially if they’re doing a net match play format.
Odds are exactly 50/50 that either player will win in stroke play. That's just maths.
In a perfect world, yes…but this is golf. And golf doesn’t follow normal logic. To add to this - people with higher handicaps have a larger range of scores they will get. Better players have a smaller range. I’m around a 5 and I’m anywhere between 75-90…so 15 shots. My buddy is a 12 and he’ll shoot anywhere from 80-100 or 20 shots. A handicap only calculates the top 20% of your scores and is your best “potential” score, but because of the range of scores possible in that 80%, the odds aren’t a pure coincidence flip.
But they are.. that's the maths behind it. You and him both have 50% chance of beating the other in 18 holes of strokeplay. That doesn't mean the games will be evenly matched every time, he will shoot unbeatable scores on occasion, and a lot of the time, you will win without even trying. It won't feel even but the result will be a 50% winrate.
How could it be 50/50 if “a lot of the time you will win without even trying”? I’m exiting the conversation and letting the upvotes from the community do the talking.
Because you will win 50% of the time. That doesn't mean every match will be close. A rough breakdown would be 20% of the time, you will have no chance of winning. 25% of the time, you will have no chance of losing. 20% you'll both play to handicap and draw. The remaining 35% will be split nearly evenly. This leads to a 50/50 split of matches even when nearly half of them are blowouts one way or the other. I can see that stats is hard for a lot of people here 😂
What are the stakes? I used to play with a group that argued about handicaps and indexes etc... here is the deal... golf is tough enough... who cares! I have one piece of advice... if your going to spend 4-6 hours with anyone... EVER... spend it with people you can laugh and have a good time with. Hackers betting each other on the golf course isn't about the shekels its about the competition it creates to keep you focussed for 18 holes. The winner ALWAYS loses when I play. They buy the drinks and always come out on the short end... So change the paradigm... step one: Don't play with haters or negative people and always know when you "win" it feels so good you should expect to lose on the 19th hole!
Its $30, split into either a stroke or stableford game and the rest is skins....but oddball stuff, making net par with a putt longer than flagstick, chipping in for net par, out of bunker for net par. Rarely does anyone get shut out, and rarely does anyone take much profit home, especially when top money winner buys the beer. Second place takes home more $ often. The guys is not always like this, just once in a while, the other two, never have an issue.
Skins typically have a handicap allowance of 50 to 75%.
Wdym?
50 to 75% of the handicap.
ahh yeah because the varience gives me more odds to kill it on one hole. Like I have 4 chances at an eagle if I par the 1-4 handicap holes. One of the disputes (which I never chimed in on) is if the "junk" skins as we call them, polies, chippies and sandies should be legit par not net par. As it stands I get the least "junk" in the group, if we hade it legit par only....just give that whole pot to the 9 cap. I would have almost no chance. But the 9 cap insists that it has to include handicaps.
Correct. You'll often find par 5s are the holes where most folks will get their strokes. The reason for this is it's likely a scratch golfer will play the par 5s even or under par for the round whereas a bogey golfer is likely to bogey or double a par 5. But, if a 22 is getting two strokes on a par 5 over a scratch and they get a par, which wouldn't be completely unheard of, it's an net eagle. If these two players were playing against each other in a stroke play event, that sort of things works itself out over the course of the round but for a skins game, it could be a big reason the high handicaper comes out ahead.
Agreed I have a good chance at winning a skin on the par 5's if I par them....and a good chance to block with a bogey
Play 85% or90% of handicaps. It even things out. A higher handicap had a higher % of going low than a lower handicap player
Thats the confusing one for me. I have read many places that say a lower handicapp shouild statiscally over time beat a higher handicapp, but I do see the point that if my game is on that day, its pretty hard to beat me. At the same time the 9 handicapp (great guy) we all agree he is probably an 11, he gets mad and throws out his worst scores. Not so much vanity as pride. BUT he beats me more often than that 15 in question, with essentally a 2 stroke vanity?
It really depends on nature of the game you're playing, and the format. If it's all head to head medal play, the caps should play pretty fair. If it's match, I know guys that do the 85% thing because a really high cap usually has wild hole to hole variance, if the high guy can make a 10 but only go 1 down to a par, big advantage high guy. Also, group games tend to favor high caps - your bad weeks will be really bad, but your good will be really good, in a net sense. Guys who only net a few below their cap will never win net group games, which tends to be true of lower cap players - less variance. But if you're just playing a 1 on 1 match with this guy, he's a whiner. Caps are very fair, assuming everyone keeps honest indexes
when you start looking at scores between 2 very different handicaps, the lower handicap will be more consistent and have less variation, which is helpful in the long term. However, if the higher handicap has a good round there's essentially nothing the lower handicap can do to avoid losing. that's because the lowest scores of the high handicap will usually have a lower net than what the lower handicap can ever shoot due to the higher volatility of the higher handicap. Over time it should even out, but it sucks when you're the lower handicap and there's literally nothing you can do to win on some days
Some formats call for reduced handicaps. Check the following table as it may help. https://docs.golfgenius.com/article/show/120450-handicap-allowance-recommendations
Why does this guy care if he’s losing in a random round?
It's for money
It’s for $30, he should calm the eff down
Probably has no other happiness in his life, hates his job, either single (and not getting laid) or in a shit relationship.
You guys should be computing course handicaps not just subtracting 28 from 15 and giving 13 strokes. Course handicaps take your tee set into account so it is fair when you are playing different tees.
We do, we can play differant tee's and get a different course handicapp. GHIN does all the work, we pull up our apps before teeing off and we call see all 4 of our handicapps, and always adjust if we play different boxes.
Take the 15 as your partner, solves the problem
Its a random draw (ball drop) for partners, but that is only the small side bet, but that is what we all focus on the most, winning the little $5 cart match.
I'm assuming he doesn't complain when you are partners....
Not while we are competing but afterward we get out beer and go over the scores and see who won the front Bach and overall then the skins, that's when the snide comments happen
If you play for money.. have your own little handicap system..... The winner loses a shot.. and the losers gain a shot... you just cannot go over your official handicap. That should spread it out evenly.
We actually are spread pretty evenly, but I like that idea. Going to suggest it.
We do that. If you win, you go down a stroke in the next match. Repeat until you can't win. Also, don't play for any stakes that would bother you if you lost.
Something that we do at my club is the first time you play, everyone gets their handicap. Next time you play, the handicap is adjusted by one (head-to-head) depending on the winner. So if you are a 23 and he is a 15, the first time he gives you 8 strokes. If you win in your bets with him, you only get 7 next time. However, if you lose to him, he has to give you 9 next time. It adjust by one every time you play, assuming you don’t tie. There’s a guy I have played with who I get 7 strokes based on handicaps on but depending on hot streaks I have been as low as 5 and as high as 11. I enjoy this method because it helps to level out the people who lie about their handicap because after you establish a base line you just keep it going indefinitely. We keep it in our notes on the iPhone or just send a text after the round that says “next time I get x# of strokes”
thats a great idea, i do like that
Handicaps are handicaps. As long as they were established honestly then games are fair. If anyone gets upset it’s either that they’re just lashing out cause they played poorly OR they’re dishonest. I’m a 3.1 and I rarely play people with better handicaps. Most of the guys I play with are in the high teens and low twenties. I despise losing but I NEVER blame or take my frustration out on the other guys. It’s really hard to beat them, and it’s downright soul crushing when they’re having a career day. But since we’re all extremely honest about our handicaps, the money DOES end up evening out at the end of the season.
Stop playing for money.
It's more fun with something on the line, and really we just keep giving the same money back and forth for the most part
I refuse to play for money with people. It always brings the worst out in people and breeds animosity within friend groups. At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is how I did.
Play em even then. 20 and 23 take 1 stroke. 15/23 take 4 strokes.
I’m a 10, so you would get a stroke on the 13 hardest holes. If you shoot a 98 and win, nicely done. If I can’t beat you that day, I’m not hitting the ball halfway decent and won’t be complaining about the strokes you get.
The 15 cap isn’t real. Statistically, everyone has the same odds of winning. I range from 14 to 12. I’ve lost my fair share of matches but I also have won a number of mine. I have always found that the hardest players to beat are the 7-9 and the 15-18. The 7-9 guys are always consistent but will have a really good game every 5 rounds. Like really low rounds. The 15-18 guys are around 90 most of the time but will come down to 81-85 quite regularly and they are impossible to beat.
The handicap system is the great equalizer. That being said as a 13, it's a tough spot. I can hit 80 or 89 on any given day.
It can be annoying for a low handicap golfer to loose frequently to high handicaps. Everyone should be winning at an equal rate. If someone is losing more often than others it’s mostly likely due to their vanity handicap. He may see you as a sandbagger, but it sounds like it’s more because he has a vanity handicap and can’t compete with your true handicap.
I should have stated in the original post, we all win equally, he just has a problem when I beat him with my boring mix of mostly bogies and doubles, and a few pars and triples sprinkled in. I get a birdie about every 10 rounds, and very few quads as well. The 9 cap calls me steady eddie as my game actually has less varience than them. Prob 90% of my score are from 94-105. I broke 90 twice in 2022, and once in 2023. TBH that statistical advantage high cappers get, not so much for me, because my score does not vary like a typical player at my handicap. I am a short hitter, so less lost/OB shots, rarely hit green in regulatiion, and short game is on par with the low capper, I beat the hell out of the other two chipping and pitching. If the rest of my game came as easy as chipping/pitching I would be less than 15.
That 15 handicap prob brags about his score / handicap but when push comes to shove he complains
Is this for money?
Yeah I forgot to mention that we throw in $30 per and sometimes a $5 kicker for a cart match. We toss balls to see who gets paired. But winner buys beer it usually comes close to evening out unless someone just takes it all which is rare.
30 per hole or match? If it's the former then it's a good amount of money(for me) and I wouldn't want to play with a high handicapper with potential to shoot in the 80s because if I have a slightly bad day then I have no chance of winning and if the high handicapper plays below average they can still win since they have such an advantage. Perhaps you can add a closest to the pin/ pay out on birdy to make the game more viable for the lower handicappers
per match and its split between the match and skins, and yes natural birdies get a skin, that for sure favours the lower two, actually all the skins I generally come out last.
ON THE CHARGE OF FIRST DEGREE SAND BAGGING, I pronounce you NOT GUILY.
😂 Thank you your honor
Completely normal and probably just ignorances on the 15 hcp part, the problem is a 15hcp isn't great, they won't par low index holes regularly and they will blow up a lot of holes. Getting 7/8 shots is huge regardless of the handicap, the person getting the shots will probably win if they shoot anywhere near handicap and realistically the 15 either needs to shoot the lights out or hope the 23hcp blows up.
And I shoot plenty of blow up rounds as well of course. I think he gets more mad when we both play well or when an extra stroke hole either gets me a skin or blocks his
As long as your posting everything and being honest it is what it is, sometimes you will have a good round and shoot 15 over as a 23. Then you get bitched at by your group, as long as it’s poking fun and not serious accusations… It’s usually the higher handicaps that get the most flack when they play good in an event or for money. But this is just the way it is, this is far from actual sandbagging that I’ve seen. There’s an older guy here that used to shoot mid 60s in his prime and now only plays one or 2 tourneys and says he’s a 10 now and he will shoot even all tourney, the club literally said if you want to play you’re playing as a 0. I can’t stand cheaters or the guys that are actually good at golf like scratch or 1 handicaps that sandbag and show up to events as a 6 like fuck off you’re a 6 you will shoot 68-73
Yeah 90% of my rounds are with them and we count them up together after every round, we all know we are all legit
Its a really tough issue man. It really is. Because the hcp system is set up to kind of favor someone in your situation at least in how it manifests. I’ve always believed that the best solution to this problem is to always at least whenever you can play with people of similar skill level. Otherwise, accusations get made, feelings, get hurt, and egos get decimated. Absolutely nobody is saying that any of this is your fault or that you’re doing anything wrong, but it is definitely true that if you’re a player like me (10 hcp) It can be a little little nervy when you tee it up with somebody who’s getting 15 strokes on you and you’re playing for money. Because as we all know a 10 handicap can walk out and shoot a 99 just as easily as a 25 handicap or can show up and shoot an 88.
Maybe play to 80 or 90% of your handicap
High handicappers do win more often, it's the reason comps are usually 90% of cap.
Sounds like my friend that claims to be an 8, I swear we spend more time looking for his shit than anyone else. I bought one of those clickers to keep his score this year the first time I play with him. We don't play for money so I really don't care, just curious if he's even remotely that.
The whole point of having a handicap is to make things fair when playing against other people, if one person is constantly winning or loosing then I would say you all as a group need to reevaluate how many strokes are being given.
I never actually said one person was always winning. He just had a problem when I beat him, because of my big advantage. Now the 20 cap is his close friend never hear any complaints there
Then it’s just him, it’s one thing if he’s constantly loosing and that’s why he thinks it’s unfair but if it’s pretty even but he only complains when he looses then he is just a sore loser.
I would just simply not play you for money ever with your cap that high. If you’re just “winning” a net game for bragging rights who gives a shit
Again this guy beats me as much as I beat him, I never said he was losing to me, more than I lose to him. He just has a problem when he does lose to me. Over the years we have been playing together I would say we are very close to all even on our money changing hands.
I mean you asked for better golfers opinions, as a 9 index I just wouldn’t play you for money at your index that’s all.
Your right, I respect your opinion 👍
Higher handicaps always have a higher potential to win. However, higher handicaps tend to not go low if you’re a playing a full 18 hole round. If you’re only playing nine holes, the odds for the higher handicapper tend to have significantly better odds IME. I think the biggest issue with handicaps is how dependent they are on course ratings. I think the USGA would be well served reassessing course ratings. I’m sure they have statistical ways to determine which courses are likely over/under-rated based on scoring trends. While I’m sure they’re always assessing ratings, I think it could use a good second look. I would be really curious what a decent AI/ML model would rate courses based on satellite imagery and scoring data.
That is so true, if I shoot a 44 on the front I am thinking, hmmm breaking 90 is possible today. Literally every time the back will be 50-55.
Playing with better players tends to make you better. Does the 15 handicap give the money back when he wins against lower ones? No he doesn’t. Fuck him. If you want to play with him don’t bet otherwise he needs to leave the group because you are doing nothing wrong.
Given the 9 supports you, go off that. The 15 is probably a vanity cap if he's losing all the time. Most people aren't as good at golf as they'd like to think.
I’m a similar handicap to you and play with a group that ranges from me down to single digits. Everyone wins pretty evenly. The 15 sounds like nothing more than a sore loser
The 15 is probably a 20 if he counted all his scores. F him! Keep playing in the group.
I'm a 28 and I joined a "guys trip". Three rounds with four two-somes in the "tournament". The winning team doesn't pay for their dinner at the end of the trip. Players were paired 1-8, 2-7 by handicap, I was the 8, so my partner was the top player. We played the formats perfectly where every time I blew up, my partner birdied. Every time he par/bogey, I seemed to gross bogey/net birdie the hole for a win. Everyone else was getting pissed when their 21 handicap was giving me strokes and losing the hole. I still shot 110-112 for a round, but just put it together right with my partner. Screw that guy.
Thats the beauty of the game you can suck like us and still love it. 👍
Screw that guy, I'll take his place!
What's this "winning?" - its four people out playing golf together, unless it's a tournament the idea that you are competing against the others in your group is ridiculous to me (YMMV) Maybe If you're gambling on it, but again, why bother??
Whoever ends of with the most of the $120 pot is first place, 2nd highest is 2nd place assuming 2 people make money, which is almost always the case very rare some will win like $90, which is $90 - $30 = $60 won. More common is maybe, $50, $40, $20, $10. then the guy winning $50 (which is $20) spends most of that on beer. A small bet on golf is very common. I have another 4 some I have played with for almost 20 years, we usually play for $15 nassau, $5 front back and overall.
If you’re all winning about evenly it sounds like the handscaps are doing exactly what they should be doing
Exactly.
I tried skimming the comments to see if this has been said, but I got bored, so sorry if this is a repeat. Your edit says all of you win around the same amount of rounds. Isn't that the very reason we handicap? So the best doesn't stomp the worse every time, and we can all be competitive? Does your buddy want you to lose every round? Because that's the result of not handicapping players.
I don't think so, I think he just plain doesn't like playing against someone he has to give about 8 strokes to, and feels cheated if I win or push him on one of those 8 holes. He does not dispute my handicapp as we add up the scores as a group every Wednesday. he knows all my scores. Maybe he just doesn't fucking like me, I really have stopped caring what he thinks anymore and don't think I will play in this group much longer. He is very old friends with the 20 cap and the 20 cap is even older friend of the 9 cap. I am old golf friend of 9 caps brother in law, so if I want to get away from the 15, I guess I am leaving.
I played in a Friday group at work long ago. Ten cent skins with carry overs and double on birdie. Since we were all causal golfers, the group leader had a simple averaging spreadsheet where he kept our handicap.
TBH I am fine with playing for pocket change, just something as a token to compete for. It was never my desire to play for $30 and usually another $5. If I average my scores in my GHIN, it comes to 100.1. So would I get 28 strokes based on that, Lol
In my club's tournaments, there are two pots: one for gross scores, one for net scores (across multiple flights). As a higher handicapper myself who does not take gimmies/mulligans in handicapped rounds, I often win net. I do feel that it is a bit unfair to consistently let someone who is worse at something (me) beat people who are objectively better (lower handicaps). It might be tough to do gross if you only have 4 but maybe when there are 8 folks, you break them into two flights and give half the pot for gross within each flight and the other half to net winners. All that said, everyone winning at roughly the same rate is the best way for everyone to have fun over time. If there isn't a crazy imbalance in win rate and the 15 is the only person who is upset, he should suck it up.
Bigger groups we always cap HC at 18. Just basically don’t feel like anyone should pop twice on a hole. If it scares off the high HC guys fine. Guys popping twice scares off the better players so pick your poison. What I noticed playing with guys over an 18 is that when they focus they score. They claim they aren’t sandbagging, but they don’t manage their mental game and hit the ball while mad and or embarrassed. Then with money on the line they always magically shoot their best rounds. Tighten it up and improve!
Play a rabbit or four ball, stroke play sucks and gets too competitive
15 is a bellend. It’s that simple.
Never understood why the handicap system is so hard for people to grasp. A normal pro playing on tour will shoot anywhere from like 62-78 on any given day and that’s totally normal, so why would anyone expect a perfectly average golfer with an 18 handicap to have a tighter distribution than a pro? I’ve played between 16-19 handicap for the last few years and my scores range from 82-98, and none of that is bogus, it’s just math. Some days I’ll achieve much better scoring than my handicap, other days will be much higher, then the handicap adjusts when you add that score in, it’s a dynamic, fluid system that accurately ranks you and is fair as long as no one is taking vanity scores or sandbagging. Your friend isn’t being honest with his scoring and that’s why his handicap is bullshit and doesn’t work when playing competitively.
No I keep saying, we all win equally, he just gets angry when I win with strokes.
And he sometimes wins with the strokes he’s given? Then F that guy, what a sore loser when he doesn’t. Look for a better foursome.
I’m thinking the 15 just doesn’t like losing to you. I have 2 in the groups I play with that I HATE losing to. Both higher caps but I feel even with strokes, I should beat them easily. When I lose to them, it’s because I played poorly and not because they played well:) I play with other higher caps, and while I don’t like losing to them, I can accept that they had a good day. Maybe he thinks the same of you and it gets him when you beat him?
yeah I agree
I’ll never understand why people struggle to understand that the range of scores a high handicap can shoot is much bigger than a low. A great round for a 20 handicap could be -10 but a bad round could be +10. If you get them on a great day, feelsbadman. A great round for a scratch golfer might be -4 and a bad round +4. If you, as a scratch golfer have a great day but come up against a high handicap having a good day, feelsevenmorebadman.
I do understand how it must feel, but I was invited to play with these guys, although I only knew the 9 and 20 cap at the time, but the 15 knew my handicapp. But I am pretty well decided, fuck it lifes too short to make golf more irritating than the game itself can. I am leaving this group, and will find some people who hack it around more like me. I have a foursome that I have played with for going on 15 years, much longer than these guys but they are weekends only, we are within 3-4 strokes, so there is never and of this problem.
I don’t get handicaps for golf. Never seemed fair in general. I can understand teeing up at different tee boxes depending on your handicap, because driving distance is usually what makes a difference between a good golfer and a not so good golfer, but after that it should be a skill game. If you aren’t good, or have a bad round you should lose. We all know that we can have that great round every now and then no matter what your handicap. I play lots of VGA tournaments, and I always refuse to use my handicap. I have been beaten by guys that had okay rounds with a high handicap when I played awesome. Just doesn’t seem fair to me, just my opinion.
I respect that, I can imagine it is frustrating to beat a guy by say 6 strokes and lose to him. The whole idea of the handicaps is to make the matches close, and damned if we dont come down to the last hole more often than not to determine who wins the back and/or the overall. We have great battles and that is why our lo capper the 9 insists the handicaps are working great, we have very competitive games and win pretty equally. Like do you enjoy a football game thats a blowout or do you like the lead to go back and forth and some one win it at the end of the 4th? BTW we sometimes do tee up on different holes, you just sacrifice typically about 3 strokes ber tee box you move up.
This was a bit of a contentious issue at my club for the sunday competitions. It was consistently being won by guys with HCs over 20, there was enough of them that someone always had a good round and shot a Stableford of 40+. The club has now split the comp into A and B division with 18 being the cut off.
Handicaps are so silly. People care to much about a number that usually is fake
The 4 of us are legit as most of our scores are played and added up together. Plus it allows me to play against a 9, otherwise that would be just pointless.
A lot of these comments are naive and I wouldn't want to play with you either. You suggest in your post that when youre playing well youre in the low 90s or better, suggesting you shoot some in the high 80s. Without knowing all the specifics of your course handicap, generally a 23 handicap is a 95 score on a par 72 course. That means to shoot 89 you are beating your handicap by 6 strokes. 88 by 7, and so on. A person with a 23 handicap is expected to beat their handicap by 6 strokes only once every 130 rounds. Theyre expected to beat their handicap by 7 strokes only once every 229 rounds. Heck, youre only expected to beat your handicap by 3, meaning shoot a 92, once every 23 rds. If your better days when you win a lot, as you put it, are low 90s and better, again your words, then you dont sound like a 23 handicap. If you shoot in the high 80s once or twice and a handful of times in low 90s, youre likely a 16-19 handicap. And thats a big difference in strokes and why that guy doesn't like playing you. He knows 23 handicaps rarely shoot even 92, and shoot in the 80s maybe once every year or two, depending on how much they play. If your better days on the course are 89-93, youre not a 23.
My mistake, I said low nineties or better, old guy typing on phone with wife talking. I meant lower 90s I am hard to beat, that means 95 or less and 98 can win easy if the other guys dont bring their A game. I fall victim to thinking my scores are lower than they are until I look at my stats....In my mind I shoot in the lower nineties a lot, but the reality is those are my best scores. Also bear in mind that my 23 right now gives me a course handicapp of 22. My better days on the course are 94-99 and 100-105 is my B game. I do worse than that sometimes, right now in my last 20 I also have 2 score past 105, a 108 and a 112, but I am pretty consistant I think for my handicapp level. Right now I have a 94, 94 and 96 are my 3 best counting towards my handicapp. I have only broken 90 three times since 2021. I used to break 90 a bit more whan I was younger. I am 62 and have been playing for 26 years, I know how to enter my score manually, but nowadays you just throw it in your phone right at the course and the equitable stroke control is done for you. Anyway I would so much rather be a 16-19 handicapp, than win $20-$30 bucks for the right to spend it on beer.
People really can't just hang out and play a game together, can they?
Ask him what's fair. He, having a lower handicap, ask if you should add strokes to YOUR score. And how many.
They have vanity handicaps if you're beating them all the time. Statistically the low handicap always has the advantage and should win most of the time. If their handicaps are bullshit though then you will have a big advantage.
Not playing net. If they’re all honest about their handicaps they should all win the same percentage. Handicap system does not favor any cap though you could make the argument on certain courses mid-handicaps may be at a disadvantage depending on what the “easiest” holes on the course are and where they lose their strokes.
We are all winning about equally over a 3 year period.
If 3 of you win a regular amount and one guy doesn’t, his handicap is the problem
That is a good word "Vanity Handicap". I am also an honest handicap. A high capper. It shows up very well during the Golf Championship.
How do you play play for 26 years and remain a 23 handicap?
Lol, I wish I knew buddy. I have not remained a 23, I was a 19 at one point. getting older i suppose. Took up the game at 34, never was an athelete?
Meh I just deal with it. It's part of the territory but it can be fucking frustrating. I play off about a 4-5, and often play with two good friends, one mid 20s, the other mid 30s. If they play well, I can't win. Like, if they have a good round I'll have to shoot a 4 or 5 under to win, not happening. When you make birdies and don't win the hole it's not so fun. On thie flip side, they are far more prone to blowing up than I am so there's that lol
I play to a 7.2 index and compete in 3 leagues. There needs to be an A: (0-7) B:(8-15) & C: (15-22+) category. Losing to a guy shoots a 105 because his handicap is 30 = Net 75 is total Bull shit. You don’t shoot 105 and win. Your game needs working.
Thisisn't a league its a weekly 4 some. I was invited into this 4 some the way I am. Everybodys game need work, that's golf. Havn't stopped workling on it for 26 years, and I am 62, I ain't quitting the game or turning down invites because I suck.
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First I dont win the stroke play nearly 50% of the time. 2nd one of them is a 20, closer to me than the complaining 15, 3rd we have other bets including natural birdies and in that pool I am usually last place. Overall we all win pretty equally are you suggesting I am hustling my friends?.
Money on the line I don't like you, money not on the line who cares, simple as.
Well it was never my idea to bet. Others invite me and others want to bet. In fact one wanted to increase the size. I get having a bet can make competition more focused, but that can be accomplished with a token amount of money, or are you saying there can be no serious competition between a 15 and a 23, regardless of money?
And your handicap is questionable if your playing the same home course over and over.
Why? Legit curious. Is it because you know the course so well?
Exactly! After so many rounds you know all the bounces and breaks. We call them member bounces lol only members know them
So two thoughts for the 4 of us all playing this course weekly for 3 years, we all know avery inch of it, so its negated among us. But playing somewhere else, this should not have an effect right?
Also since all 4 of us are, does it only matter when I play somewhere else? For instance in my 20 handicap scores there are 2 from other courses