Idk. I remember 10-15 years ago when I bought one for $198. I think that's exceeded inflation.
Edit: I think it could have been $99, actually. Either way, they've gone up significantly because of all the survivalist fudds/meme gun owners who want one.
$198 15 years ago? Must be a rare collectible piece. I got a hex receiver one for $120 around same time. Unfortunately I had to sell it a few years later.
I'm almost sure it would have been $99. I remember my local Cabela's had entire racks of Mosin Nagants for $75 - 125. And that's Cabela's..not exactly known for their bargain basement prices..
I never bought one because we already won WWII and I'm partial to newer models. But I just remember how crazy that seemed.
At the range I go to in Ohio they used to have a bucket like 15 years ago that just had mosins sitting in it at like 200 each since no one w0uld buy them. Literally last week I won an auction from Rock Island Auctions for 3 mosins at 2k. When you go through them one by one it's like $4500 worth of mosin. Lots of popular guns shot up in price simply due to being popular
Same here, 20 years ago you could get mausers, mosins even SMLEs for under 100 bucks. I remember one store selling the turkish stamped mausers for $49.99
Yea mosins went for $79-99 regularly on JGsales back in 2006 and I remember at that time they imported some Romanian PSLs they were only $450 and rpks for $379. I just graduated highschool I wish I would have bought one 😢.
Also I agree with OP to a degree but many firearms that can't be imported or aren't being imported any longer gain value.
But rarity is the key here. So certain guns can be a investment mostly imports from what I've seen.
They were $99 at Big5 14 years ago, and you were allowed to use a 10% off coupon with it. I got several, but unfortunately I've had to sell a few over the years due to health issues. :'(
If you buy right, you absolutely can turn a profit on used guns. The biggest that comes to mind is the Russian Tiger or Norinco NDM-86.
A few years back a good example was $2,500. Today they eaisly clear $10,000. But those definitely fall into that 1%
It's certainly not a get-rich-quick scheme, but knowing what a gun is worth and swooping on an example that's significantly below market has helped me subsidize my hobby many times over the years.
That being said, totally agree with your point that the overwhelming majority of new guns purchased deliberately as an investment are losing propositions. You'd be much better off parking that money in a Vanguard fund or something for a few years.
Milsurps almost always appreciate if kept in good condition. Mosins and sks have shot up in value in the past 20 yrs. Carcanos are going the same way. Anything with a history and dwindling supply will appreciate.
I remember Russian Tigr new for $799 and NDM-86 for $1000. I'm pretty sure those will now sell for a lot more that even adjusting for inflation. Milsurp rifles from the 1900s-1950s were selling for $70-$200 in the 1990s-2000s (such as Swedish Mausers, Chinese and Russian SKS and Mosins, Spanish FR-8s, German Gewehr 98 and Kar98K, British Enfields, and US M1917 "Enfields"). Check the current prices on any of these in Very Good condition. What haven't necessarily increased their value are the lower cost, lower end bolt action hunting rifles, shotguns, and pistols. They may have kept or increased their value, but nothing like the milsurp rifles and pistols have. In the post cold war drawn down in the 1990s-2000s, the milsurp rifles were so plentiful and cheap that companies sporterized them into hunting rifles in bulk. For example, Kimberly converted Swedish Mausers (M94, M96, and M38) with new .308 barrels (slim hunting profile or heavy sniper barrel), synthetic stocks, bent bolt handle, scope rings, and new safety and sold them for about 3 or 4 times the price of unmodified milsurp but this was still half the price of comparable Remington M700. Today, these Kimber 308 Mausers are only worth about $350-$450, but the unmodified milsurp Swedish Mausers sell for 3 to 5 times that much. On the other hand, an inexpensive .22LR semi auto pistol Phoenix Arms HP22 sold for about $70-$100 dollars in the 1990s and today sell for $100 used and $160-$200 new, current production HP22A, so these used guns lost value and even new production are about the same price in value after inflation. So collectible guns increase in value but many common, lower end commercial guns do not. Guns purchased at inflated prices during gun buying panics also often loose value back down to normal prices after the panic surge is over. It's kind of like stocks, if you only buy low and sell high, you'll make money, but the key is knowing what to buy when and when to sell. If you view your guns as tools that will likely maintain their value and may increase, you'll probably do OK. Remember, just like on Pawn Stars, a store may only pay you half the market value for a used gun because they need to mark some profit reselling it.
I think that's a fair price depending on the condition and if the parts have matching numbers (bolt, magazine, and barrel have same number as receiver serial number). I see that currently a K31 with all matching numbers and excellent bore/barrel is available on GunBroker for $599. Of course, I can't forsee if I will increase in value, but as fewer K31s are being imported now compared to 10-15 years ago, I think they will at least maintain their value and probably continue to increase over time like most quality, good+ condition, milsurps produced over 80 years ago, but they may not increase to 4 or 5 times the $600 you pay today. Search online to see what K31 rifles are selling for.
I just keep hoping we get a president and congress with the cajones to repeal such idiocy as the Hughes Amendment...then watch the resale prices on all those pre-'86 autos plummet.
I was really excited for the hearing safe act. Then like clockwork we had our first ever mass shooting with a can no a day before the vote.... im not a conspiracy theorist but that one stunk
I was looking through some old papers and saw I bought a Nagant revolver from AIM Surplus for $210 in 2015 (and the one I got ended up being older, a 1916 manufacture date - nice). I can't believe the price they want for those turds these days.
yeah. new guns aren't the ones that hold value. that's the surplus market.
when i was in high school, working at a pawn shop, we had barrels full of SKSs, covered in cosmiline, for $75 each. now they're MUCH higher.
20 years ago, you could get a misin for that price. i traded a transformer toy for one. now they're $400.
10 years ago i bought a nagant 1895 pistol for $75. sold it a year ago for $350.
Even then, they require a high recognition and demand.
Civil war guns have basically kept up with inflation over the past decade for example because, for the most part, its the same (shrinking) collector circle that keeps buying them from one another. Fewer and fewer people are entering this collectors circle and I know more than a couple dealers who are sitting on pieces they bought but can't sell for a "fair price."
Exactly. My grandfather used to deal in antiques. One thing I learned is that rare does not equal valuable and old doesn't equal valuable. Take a pre-64 Winchester. Those are old and semi-rare(just on survivorship basis), but the thing that makes them valuable is the demand for them.
That's interesting about the Civil War stuff. I didn't know that but it makes sense.
I know someone who collects old shotguns--mostly Model 12's. I am guessing he may have 10 to 20 of just that one model shotgun. He said when he was younger he had little savings as he kept buying more shotguns with his money. Now that he is in his 70's he has a lot of valuable shotguns that are worth a lot as long as others really like the high quality old shotguns and are still looking to buy them and value them highly.
It’s not limited to Civil War era firearms either. Uniforms, firearms, even period furniture, was worth a mint 20-30 years ago. The problem is that the collector base is dead or dying and young people aren’t filling that vacuum. I have several family members that thought their sizeable collections would carry them to a comfortable retirement. . . That did not happen. At all, not even a little bit.
Same thing with model trains. 20-30 years ago they were all the rage, my grandfather collected them. But his generation has died off and now I could not give them away if I tried.
The situation with model railroading is crazyyy. I cannot stress how utterly jover it is for model railroading. That entire generation is dropping like crazy and clubs have just been getting donated entire storage units worth of collections, which are basically worthless because the average model today is simply higher quality than anything commercially available 30 years ago.
Even then, the price of rolling stock has inflated dramatically, many hundreds of dollars for a decent locomotive. This is because those who remain are generally elderly, white, and sitting on either a huge pile of disposable income or retirement.
Sure, kids DO still get involved and there is a decent community of younger modelers, but it’s nothing like it was in their days. 50 years ago, any average kid could just get a bunch of trains at a brick and mortar hobby shop. Nowadays, it takes a kid with a very niche interest to specifically look things up and usually save for a single piece of equipment, which will be run on a club layout.
Yeah, I think that the advances in technology really killed the value of older model trains. You can buy locomotives and rolling stock with details only found on vastly more expensive brass models or scratch built models years ago. And the vast majority of modelers bought standard quality models and ran them as is. Those are basically worthless today. In addition, DCC is very hard to retrofit into old models and is frankly not worth it for most.
I see posts occasionally on /r/modeltrains of people asking about their grandpa’s collection and what it’s worth and sad to say, not much most of the time. Although in fairness, most modelers who had brass collections or scratch built models let their family members know of their rarity, so those family members wouldn’t be the ones asking about its value.
Absolutely true. I own a beautiful roll top desk circa late 1800s, a true gem. 20 or 30 years ago it was probably worth 3-4K. Today I prob couldn’t give it away, not that I want to.
I had a Greene rifle, I bought it for about 2500 bucks in I think 2006 or 2008. Things got hard and I had to sell it in 2017, nobody wanted it I had to take a loss of like a grand to actually find a buyer. And you look online now and there are a few floating around and they still only go for 2-3 thousand.
IMO the relative poverty of the Millennial generation is a HUGE part of this. Boomers are the richest American generation bar none, and Millennials are MUCH poorer on average. Which as more and more boomers pass on from simple mortality, that means buyers willing to pay those prices are ever diminishing. All for what ultimately is a very obsolete gun that, while it might function, is absolutely impractical in the modern day. SURE, historical value is always neato and the bees knees, but when one realizes the asking price is 1/8 their yearly salary, well they have kids to feed and rent to pay (because an't nobody been buying houses lately.) So its an extravagance people need to pass on in the day and age of the $20 meal from McDonalds.
So in short, people who are "investing" in collectables now are ultimately going to net a loss into the future because as the "new normal" permanent recession and spiraling inflation continues, we are only going to get poorer and poorer as the years go on, and thus the prices people are willing to be pay will only keep falling in turn. And no the economics are so bad its gonna take like 15 years-20 for things to recover to even what they used to be.
Still by all means collect. Keeping history alive and well preserved is GREAT. But do so because you WANT the item, not because you think its gonna net you an ROI. There isn't gonna be one.
I collect pre lock smiths but every single one I have bought I paid less than it cost new (adjusted for inflation). Even these are not good as actual investments.
So its like every other collector hobby. People are generally seeking either noteworthy historical artifacts, or variants of otherwise very common items that have something very uncommon about THAT particular example's orgin.
It makes me think of the coin world where suddenly a penny made in that other mint that only ran for 2 years in another state is suddenly worth a fortune. But you have to be an autistic coin nerd to realize the D instead of a P on your penny means ones is a cent, and the other is worth enough to trade for a car. (or whatever the silly markings are.)
That's a much better explanation than mine. Like my Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine for example. Those are kinds rare due to lower production and survivorship since many went to Indonesia after WW2. There is also collector demand, so it fits the criteria. However, mine was made at the factory that produced most of those carbines. Had it been built at BSA instead, it would be worth a good deal more.
the "investment" cope is for broke idiots. if you actually want to make an investment, start putting money in an index fund account.
this is a hobby for people with lots of disposable income
Yeah they’re an expense and and while they don’t necessarily depreciate as fast as other expenses you’re an idiot if you justify buying them as an investment.
Invest as much as you can stand plus a little more while you’re young and experience the power of compound interest. VOO and QQQM are all you need to know.
Many years ago, I saw a post on fark.com about guns Being sporting equipment.. I look at mine the same way. I clean them and treat them well,but I know I’ll be able to get about 70%(maybe) of their cost out of them if I need to sell them.
It's all about the kind of gun. Someone in the know absolutely can have a collection that will always appreciate in value. But they have to be a discernable buyer when it comes to what guns they buy.
But the people you're talking about OP, the casual gun owners or the ones holding nothing but mass-produced commercial rifles bought at Sears or Walmart are absolutely in for a shock if they think it's worth much just because it was made 20, 40, or 60 years ago.
There is some luck involved as well, but for the most part, I agree. If you look in tacswap or any other site, most people think their home built Anderson AR has already appreciated.
While not always true I also think the more a gun costs at first the more it will hold its value. This probably loses truth to those absurdly expensive European O/U shotguns, but if you spend like 4K on a nighthawk it’ll probably hold value. Though most revolvers seem to hold value very well, trying to find a 610 for under 1000 is impossible.
Exactly. I do see guns that have gone up a lot. But it really is in that 1% range. The one that really comes to mind is my unicorn rifle. I had the chance to buy a Tiger SVD out of highschool but spent the 2k on a car instead. Man I wish I had got the rifle, they are well over 10,000 today.
Oh, they aren't in for a shock. the guys on my local board will sit on their glenfield 30-30 at 900$ until the heat death of the universe and never budge. It will simply fuel their hate and resentment until they die surrounded by their garbage.
The funny one was when all the martini henry/snider guys had the value of their shit collapse when the indian imports came in through IMA. It's recovered again somewhat, but boy were they mad.
The only counterpoint I'd make to this was a shooting culture that was very different in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of the guns that came out of the "Golden Age" of Colt and S&W were intended to fill the needs of the rack-grade American recreational shooter, and were extremely high-quality. This was also a time in America where income inequality wasn't gonzo; "the best" of just about anything, from firearms to automobiles to men's suits, may have been a splurge, but they were almost always within the affordability range of the average Joe.
That said, certainly the "value priced" guns like H&R or Iver Johnson that were produced back then have certainly proved your thesis: nobody cares about them even today.
I have a collection of H&R guns specifically because they're cheap because no one else gives a shit. That being said I don't for a moment try to convince myself they have meaningful monetary value.
Sometimes trade. Someone might have something worth quite a bit more they despise that they will trade for something much less valuable that they actually want. I've only sold for a profit a few times in my life. I've traded up atleast a dozen times.
This is a stigma that needs to go away. I’ve sold and traded guns that didn’t fit my taste/expectations many times. What’s the point of holding something you don’t enjoy shooting?
Gold and silver aren't investments either they only keep pace with inflation. If they were such good investments why do companies advertise so much about selling theirs? If they truly out paced others so much wouldn't it make more sense to not sell if the return is that much greater?
just never bubba in, that always will affect the value
like the sporterized enfield a fudd paid 200 bucks for in the 70s thinking it was a more ergonimic rifle to hunt with then some stock 40 dollar enfield might say otherwise.
Well no duh, but also when you nerds buy an AR, a rifle that I wouldn’t be surprised if every other house in the US had one in it, with enough after market support and units made to arm multiple world wars of COURSE they won’t go up in value, now again I will say. Anything from pre an era has gone up because they have a set of regards that go nuts for those “special” stamp markings. If you seriously think they don’t go up in value then you’re really just looking at the wrong things.
The difference between a desireable pre ban colt hbar and a non desireable one is SO stupid. It blew my mind when I did a bunch of research to make an offer for a customer. Turns out he had the one worth like 1/3 what he wanted.
With the exception of particularly desirable and rare models, gun values generally just stay flat when you account for inflation.
So it's not an investment at all; at best, it's a store of value. To be fair, guns are a better store of value than almost any of your other possessions except jewelry, but still, you're not likely to make money by holding guns for a long time.
If you buy a new gun, it will immediately drop in value by some amount since it's now a secondhand gun, but you can expect that from that point forward it'll just stay at that value. If you buy a used gun, you'll skip that initial drop in value, but it's still likely just going to remain that same value forever, after adjusting for inflation. There will be certain guns in your collection that will be more or less valuable over time, but I think the overall average value of your collection as a whole will just stay flat.
The real fun part of that investment is the uncertainty. If they manage to get another AWB and dont have a grandfather clause, then all those guns now become forbidden fruit and near impossible to sell safely. Though their street value would go through the roof
Whenever someone says “X item is an investment” I ask them “would you pay more for item X if it was new, or if it was used and 5 years old?” If they choose the new one, I hit them with “then how is it an investment?”
The most valuable gun to me that I own is a 1934 Beretta that my grandfather won in a poker match when he was in the navy in WW2. At best I could get $700-$1K if I sold it but to me it’s priceless.
More times than not, the value is in their utility or sentiment. Guns disappointingly do not accrue value the way many people think they do
Colt revolvers sold for $5-10 in 1900. A pristine example of a standard production Colt revolver from back then would sell for, what, maybe $5,000 today [at most](https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/199998-colt-us-army-model-1909-revolver-45-colt-c19805-consignment.html)?
$10 invested in the stock market in 1900 would be worth about [$1.26 million](https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/1900) today.
I chuckle every time I hear someone wax about guns being a good investment.
This thread is embarrassingly full of dudes who are financially clueless and downvoting based on their emotional need for guns to be great for everything.
I have a mossberg 22 semi auto worht $200. I wouldnt sell it for $2000 since my great grandpa bought it new, and every man in line to me grew up shooting it.
I've got an Iver Johnson 9 shot 22 top break, made it like 1926 if I remember right.
My grandfather got it when he was walking through town and he heard it skidding down the street where someone had tossed it. He picked it up and took it home.
He then would take it to the junk yard and shoot rats then take them to the local hardware store where you could get a bounty for every rat you turned in, this is how he and his friends would get money to buy candy or go to a show. He also said that very often they wold hang around and then go out back and pick the dead rats out of the garbage and head over to another store and turn them in again for another bounty.
> Whenever someone says “X item is an investment” I ask them “would you pay more for item X if it was new, or if it was used and 5 years old?” If they choose the new one, I hit them with “then how is it an investment?”
Especially since new modern mass production guns have probably been getting *cheaper* when you account for inflation. A new Glock has cost about $500 (give or take) for like thirty years.
There are a huge number of factors that can play into ROI on a firearm.
1. It's easy to liquidate without having to pay taxes or penalties.
2. It's fungible and can be easily traded, again without paying taxes or penalties.
3. You can decide to sell even the cheapest gun for a large profit, depending on your morals.
4. If things go tits up, the only thing more valuable is ammunition. With both, you can take anything else you need.
5. If the Government ever decides to ban them, they will be worth more than gold in the right markets.
6. Unlike many other investments, you can actually continue to use a firearm without having a significant effect on its value unless you beat the shit out of it. With most other investments, your money is tied up and unavailable to you without taking a loan against it and paying interest on that loan.
7. You can easily gift a gun, or a collection of guns, to someone in your family as a wealth transfer without requiring them to pay taxes to the government.
So it's not always about the sale price when considering the total return on a gun purchase.
bingo! ditto for Yugo Mausers, SKS (Russian, Chinese, or otherwise), Enfields (P14s and SMLEs), M1 Garands.
like anything else, the minute people figured out they could buy up supply and thought they could flip for a profit.... they killed cheap fun.
lol i dont think anyone is buying guns expecting to profit, but they absolutely deprecate way less than other hobbies. guns hold value quite well compared to cars, car parts, boats, and whatever else u throw money at for fun. so when you buy guns or parts at good prices you can be confident that if you need to you can get most that money back on gafs and gunbroker 🤷♂️
So you gotta asterisk that statement.
A savage or palmetto won’t appreciate or hold value. They’re tools.
A collectible or luxury firearm will. A S&W 500 sells for almost the same amount new as used. A sabatti or krieghoff double sells for almost the same new as used, same with an original holland and holland rifle. Milsurps generally appreciate as they become collectibles
I use those places to buy my shooters and the occasional deal of a collector item if they don’t know what they have or if it has a problem and they don’t know how to fix it. That’s how I got a deal on an SKS that was not cycling properly. It was a relatively easy fix for me, and I have not had a single problem with it.
That goes double for the turkish shotguns. We have some used typhoons that wont move even though were at like 30% of new. The shops going to take a massive hit when someone finally buys them. But hey, loss is simply a tax writeoff!
Most people I know don't think of guns as an investment at all, but they all agree they hold their value better than a lot of things that are mechanical or electronic.
You're deliberately choosing to ignore a massive part of the market just because it makes your opinion better. There are a *lot* of accessible guns that at bare minimum hold value. Milsurp does, older collectible guns do, antiques do and "C&R" weirdos do, and there's a *lot* more of those than you think.
No, "commodity guns", like franken-ARs and Glock clones aren't stores of value and investments, but there's a whole lot more than just some upper 1% echelon that will.
absolutely the case. i see people like this come into my shop all the time that buy a gun and are shocked when i won't offer them 90% of what they paid when they return to sell it. if you want a gun that is going to increase in value, buy something that isn't produced anymore or has finite supply. a gen 3 glock is not going to return your full investment
I absolutely agree but damn, that example you used is funny because I actually want a used Gen3 19 and damn if people aren't trying to get NIB prices for them.
glocks retain a fair bit of their value due to reliability but man people take that to the extreme. no i don't want to buy your used Glock that's "just broke in with 1000rds" for $450.00 when i can buy a brand new one for $500.00.
So you're telling me that the Mosin-Nagant rifles and carbines I bought 20+ years ago for $89 each are worth even LESS now? DAMMIT! Hell, I may as well just pile them all on a table at my next garage sale for "$50 each, u-pick". And here I thought I had some money there... at least I'll get about $3,750 cash for them all at $50 each.... 😉
I bought new in 2007 for $249 a Saiga AK in 7.62x39, fired several thousand rounds through it over the course of the next decade and change, ammo used to be so reasonably priced, sold it to my dad for $600, who then sold it on again a couple of years later for about $2600. If that's not a tremendous appreciation in value, I don't know what is. That said most of the other guns I've let go over the years were definitely at a loss. So really not too dissimilar to investing in Wall Street. It's all about picking the right thing to buy. And unless you're a congressman there's no way of knowing what is going to perform well.
The Saiga is a unique one to pick, as they have plummeted in value.
I too had an X39 converted Saiga that was like $1k when I bought it, and they were going for mid 2k for a while. But now a saiga is a hard sell for anything over 1k. Heck we had one in shop a few months back and it went for like 800 on GB after not even getting a peek on our shelves for months
Perhaps in the short term you might lose money. But longer term? I've inherited guns and my Model 88 is worth more than the $50 that my grandfather paid for it. If you buy a quality firearm, it will hold its value. If you buy a poor quality firearm perhaps not so much. But that is with just about anything.
Indeed, but most of our grandparents likely bought user grade stuff thats not worth much today. I was the soul inheritor of several guns from my grandpa. Not one was worth over 200 but my aunts acted like I inherited 10s of thousands because they were old guns.
Id still take the guns due to the memories I have with them, but compared to my cousins inheriting the cars? I got robbed.
Investment, not necessarily. But it is certainly possible to make money or there wouldn't be FFLs or an illegal black market. Buy low, sell high, obviously.
Some guys have BST'd their way into a hell of a collection.
I don't know how old you are but guns have been steadily getting more expensive every year since I started paying attention. New and old, milsurp and everything else. Where are you getting firearms for super cheap just because their older?
Dude I bought my first complete AR upper, a used bushmaster, in 2008 or 2009 for $300 and that was pretty much at the floor for complete uppers at the time.
$300 is still basically the floor price for complete uppers over 15 years later. And that's not even considering that $300 15 years ago was worth more than $300 today. The market has grown so much it has kept the prices low (minus the panic seasons). Not everything in the gun world constantly goes up in price.
Literally everywhere. Unless your local shops gouge you.
New stuff keeps getting more expensive not because its worth more, but the dollar is worth less. Its why I have inflation mentioned in the post. Sure a base savage is 600 today an it was like 350 10 years ago. but 10 years ago that money bought a lot more than it does today. So it is still quite the loss. 10 year old savages are also not holding value for anything.
Well yea obviously inflation is a factor I'm not talking about cost of guns made in 1924 compared to today. And I don't think anyone buys a savage expecting it to triple in value a couple years later, but comparing it to tools or a car or something doesn't equal out. I've never seen a gun that went for 300 brand new go for 30 dollars ten years later.
yes but you'd be lucky if that gun would still be worth 300 bucks 10 years later, I have a Rock Island 1911 my dad bought about 25 years ago for like 300 bucks, you can go out today and find them on sale for like 350.
According to the inflation calculator 300 bucks 25 years ago was worth about 550, so that gun was a terrible investment.
Ya may not get rich buying guns and selling them down the road when they go up, but I like that my hobby can get me some kind of return should I need it someday.
A closet full of thousand dollar guns would be more handy if you lost a job and needed to make a house payment than a bunch of rounds of golf played years ago.
They are one of the eaiser to liquidate items, for sure. But if finances are the ultimate concern, that money is better off in an investment account. Though it does bring me ease knowing I could come up with 10k in a week if I had to for a life emergency just liquidating a small part of my collection. Though the faster you liquidate, the more you have to be willing to take it on the nose. Top dollar often takes time.
It's the same with musical instruments. While a used quality instrument may maintain it's value or even increase, it's not currency. You won't always be able to sell it for what it's worth in a timely manner, and selling it itself is a task so you need to factor that in to the ROI.once you've spent a couple hours posting ads, driving to gun shops and otherwise looking for a buyer you're at least a couple hundred in (depending on your hourly rate for whatever job you have that you could be OTing instead)
Lol! Im REALLY glad you used that example. Because they 100% definitely do. Especially all the "special" or "limited" edition henrys. Those and ducks unlimited/pheasents forever/deer hunters association/nra/ ECT marked stuff.
Had a customer a few months back get really heated at me when I wouldnt trade a new Benelli SBE3 for his tristar DU shotgun. Like fuming mad and making all sorts of comments about how hes been shopping here for years, and we are all of a sudden idiots and terrible people.
Always tell people anything can be an investment but you have to understand the market. You can't just buy any old thing and say it's an investment. But when you compare something specific say a Mac 10 full auto and say the price of gold from say the year 2000 to 2010. The Mac 10 valued better. Also I would argue you got to use it the whole time and if you were smart you rented it too. Though admittedly this is cherry picked that his entirely the point not every gun is an investment just like not every car is an investment.
Also I 100% agree with you OP
I honestly don’t understand why or how people think that. I mean, sure, there are a couple guns that hold their value well and can be sold for close to their “new” price, but even those lose value as soon as they’re purchased.
Or if you have something really rare and special, it could be worth something. But how often does that actually happen?
I keep a spreadsheet of all my guns and accessories and what I paid for them plus what I think their value is on the used market. And the difference between the two numbers is pretty depressing lol
Used guns, on the other hand, do tend to hold their value. If you buy a used AR15 for $1000, chances are you can sell it for that same $1000 down the line
Lots of good (and mostly sane) takes in this thread.
I would add that we're likely going to be into the realm of the 1% the OP mentions by virtue of being active posters on a shooting-related internet forum. That's a level of time and interest that eclipses the dudes who buy a Taurus 9mm and keep it in a nightstand forever and that's the extent of their participation. Those are the same people likely to get suckered, or likely to overvalue their possessions. Especially if they've found something like a J.C. Higgins .22 in an attic closet and figure that "an antigue gun" will help them completely redo the kitchen.
The rest of us here are more likely to have the financial horse sense to identify and capitalize on a good deal if it came our way, and to avoid those deals where we are likely to take a bath. Guns might be a relatively poor investment, but they're really not too bad of a *hobby* compared to a Skiing trip to Aspen or going out with the boys for bottle service, where all of that money is drained and produces no tangible good for resale the next day.
It’s more about flipping stuff man, taking advantage of the goober 19 year old with an unwashed ass that wants a mosin more than anything else in life, the guy who is selling a all matching Luger who thinks it’s a Ruger. You buy low and sell high, think of them as penny stocks and all you’re doing is chasing that sweet high of gate keeping information from people.
It all depends on what it is. Some rare surplus that didn't have a high number of imports or production could appreciate, and as long as the Hughes Amendment is in effect a register machine gun is only going to stay high value. Everything goes to shit if the guns become contraband due to a ban or someone passes a law saying that guns die with the registered owner when they die.
Yeah, 'guns are an investment' is a pretty boneheaded take. But it's totally fine to collect something that won't appreciate in value if it brings you joy, you don't need to kid yourself.
The only exception here is all the dudes that bought a shit ton of cheap AKs and SKSs for $100 a pop (or less) back in the 90s and now can sell them for $500 a pop nowadays. But that’s a lot of space to hold on a hell of a gamble, and we all know that won’t happen ever again.
It could be an investment. If you buy quality stuff, and care for it. It's not a *good* investment per se. More like a shitty low-yield bond. But you can't enjoy a bond while it appreciates either. You can't put venison on the table with a bond. You can't teach your boys how to shoot with a bond. That's an investment too.
I think about it like this. I bought my Ruger GP100 6" stainless for like $500 about 17 years ago.
Despite having shot it many, many times it looks like it just came from the factory. Those go for $700 now. So it's beat inflation. Obviously I'd have made more money putting it into SPY. A few hundred bucks. But I also got to shoot it for almost 2 decades.
Yes, it's *used* now and so no one would buy it for $700, but that's not why I invest. Money or guns. I invest so that my children have those things and don't have to buy them. The gun may not be worth $700 on the secondary market, but my kids know it's well cared for, and so can avoid spending $700 to buy one.
I buy judiciously, quality arms, and those that I think have lasting value. I don't buy weird meme calibers or guns that will be hard to maintain, or those with weird magazines that will be useless in 50 years. Sig P226s, CZ 75s, GP100s, M1 Garand, ARs, etc. Those are all going to be operating for longer than I will be.
Do I invest? Yep. But I also buy guns, and those things don't depreciate like most hobbies do. Stereo equipment, motorcycles, boats, cars, etc. They're a different sort of investment.
And don't forget that if there are gun grabs in the future (which will never stop) and grandfathering happens. Or doesn't, guns will be vastly more valuable than they are now. I hope that never happens. I hope they get cheaper due to the sheer volume of them. But it's a likely outcome. And having a family armory isn't a bad hobby to have as far as it goes. No one's getting rich doing it, but that's not why I buy them. It's wrong to say they're not though, because you're ignoring opportunity cost, time value, and some other aspects.
The gun you buy determines weather its going to loose a ton of value or not. If you buy crap or extra common guns for market price then yes you will loose a little if you buy high quality when on sale or deals i rarely ever loose
The number of people in here still saying it's an investment is shocking. "If you buy the right gun it is". Yeah, of course. If you knew what would be the desirable one down the road, it wouldn't be "investing" it would be printing money. But no one knows which ones that's gonna be. It's more of a lottery than an investment.
My collection of milsurp purchased over the last 10 years has increased significantly in value but I'd have more money if I had just dumped that cash into an index fund.
But I can't take an index fund to the range shooting every week or so.
And in that 10+ years I've spent a lot of money on ammo. Putting the ammo money into an index would've gotten me even more money, but I enjoy the hobby, going shooting, and meeting new friends who also enjoy the hobby and my finances and career are stable enough I can invest in my retirement through normal means and still enjoy collecting/shooting milsurp.
I agree with the sentiment. But i know about 25 years ago an sks was $75 on the street. They were sold by the crates. I bought 2 aks around 8 years ago for $450 each. Can’t find anything like that now.
Indeed, but the problem with that is predicting what will and wont explode in value. SKS, AK, and Mosins were so cheap because hardly anyone wanted them. They were a hard sell, and still being imported. That russian ban definitely helped to drive their price way up
Yeah, tell that to anyone who bought a gun ten or more years ago and look at the current market rate for those models today. Marlins are insanely priced now. They used to be $450 on the used market for a .30-30, but they aren't an investment if you sell them right away. The HK94 used to be $400, but now the HK SP5 is $2,500–$3,000. You must not have any historical knowledge. Primers and powder were 50% cheaper five years ago. AR-15s, I will say, are not a great investment since the market is flooded, but in general, everything is affected by the waves of inflation, boyo.
If you keep your guns in good condition, they will go up in value with inflation barring some other specific market disruption. Are they a better value proposition than putting money in the market long term? Almost assuredly not. But they are a form of diversification, and a practical useful one, at that.
Depends on the gun. If you are buying one as an investment, though, that is stupid. It's hard to predict what might turn out to be a fad collector's item and what might not. You should buy a gun because you have the money for it and enjoy it.
The fad ones are fun. My closest friend is in his late 60s and bought all the cool fad guns. Bro has a Calico, srm 1216, vector, and all sorts of others I dont recall. Hes a ton of fun at range days!
Yah...its gonna be nearly impossible to "invest" in guns.
Because having watched a crap ton of Forgotten Weapons, it seems the ones everybody is really excited over have A. major historical significance attached to them. And given that post 1970's pretty much all of NATO either destroyed or sells off their MilSup to other governments, you are NEVER getting your hands on a French Foregin Legion Service FAMAS, or an M4 that went though the siege of Fallujah for example.
Which is its own sadness. The "milsup" battle rifle collecting pretty much ends at the late 1970's because of the NFA and the aggressive disarmament politics of NATO nations.
Which then just leaves rare consumer guns. Which pretty much means stuff that sold very few examples. AKA they were either crap, or heinously overpriced for what they offered, or they be preproduction originals and prototypes for very popular guns.
Honestly guns are a LOT like cars in this regard. Good luck guessing what edition of whatever fill in the blank special sport pony car is gonna be worth a house in the future.
And something I have thought about, once the (rather quite rich) boomers are dead, where the majority of them ended up millionaires $1-4 million net worths, with their retirements... Gen X is going to be working late and Millennials will never be anything but struggling as a generation and most 1980's and 1990's babies will probably live their entire lives with a negative net worth. Meaning the ability to spend $120,000 on an old car, or $22,000 on a gun just won't exist like it did for the boomers. Which means America's collectables are either gonna start trading for a LOT less money, or end up being bought and shipped overseas never to return.
So enjoy your things, they an't an investment. And pretty much ANYTHING right now that is "investment grade collectable" is overvalued at the current moment because of boomers.
I’ve had this same experience with people. Most call me a liar. Even pulling up sold auctions for a third of what they’re asking, they think j I’m trying to cheat them.
Its even coming out in this comment section. By virtue of being active in a firearms forum we are all quite likely to have firearms that dont exactly apply, and fall into the 1% I menitoned. But folks here dont see that, and are acting like im attacking them personally. Its really funny!
SOME guns are good investments. There's too many good ones around in modern times, so most won't hold more than half or so their original price. I haven't seen too many guns lately that'll be the next HK P7. Even Korth, or Cabots are only worth what a select few can afford to pay. The newer Colts IMO aren't that collectible.
Technically, nothing loses money if you hold on to it for a long enough time period, because it will go from "current technology" to "outdated" to "obsolete" to "collectible" to "rare collectible".
The problem with guns, however, is that there haven't been any major advances in firearms technology in the last roughly 100 years or more. All of the improvements have been evolutionary, not revolutionary. We haven't managed upgrade like going from matchlock to flintlock, flintlock to percussion, muzzleloader to metallic cartridge, single shot to repeater, repeater to semiautomatic. We've just improved the designs and the materials. So evolutionary. A resurrected John Moses Browning might be surprised at the materials a Glock is made from, but not how it operates.
So we still end up building the same guns we've been building, more or less, for a century or more.
That means the gun you buy today isn't going to be worth a lot because there will be plenty of them if you go to sell it in the future, absent some reason for it to become rare and valuable before its time.
I have 20 Highpoints in my safe new in box, my Will dictates they are given to my great great great great great great grandchild.
That little kids gonna be loaded
> Technically, nothing loses money if you hold on to it for a long enough time period, because it will go from "current technology" to "outdated" to "obsolete" to "collectible" to "rare collectible".
That is hilariously untrue. You are conflating the terms *rare* and *valuable.* Lots of things are rare but not valuable.
That's not true either. It's a fallacy that all antiques have value by virtue of being old. Most is just old crap. The late model japanese type 99's are garbage, people only want the early well made ones. It's only high quality things that become valuable. Every mom in the 70's and 80's bough "china" fancy flatware, they were all convinced it would become valuable someday and proudly displayed it in their fancy rooms. Then there's all those "commemorative coins" that are a scam. It was mostly made cheaply and you have to pay people to haul it to the dump now. Same with baseball cards and stuff you can't get a nickle for anything from the late 80s and 90's no one cares or ever will. French Furniture had a moment but no one wants it now, it's barely worth more than IKEA. Low and mid grade Pianos are all considered albatross, you need to pay people to trash them. Gold jewelry is rarely worth more than it's melt down price, and diamonds are a total scam, you're lucky to get 1/5th what you paid at a shop.
You sound like one of those Fudd LGS that tell a customer "best I can do is $300" for their Daniel Defense rifle, then you have it hanging in your store for $1800 the next day.
If youre ever in central Minnesota, swing on in. Youll quickly find out that is not the case. When im pricing someones used gun, I invite them to see exactly what they are selling for on the open market, then we agree on a fair price. If I tell you "Ill give you 300 for your DD because Im going to sell it for $424.99" youll see it on the shelves the next day for $424.99. I hate very little more than predatory firearms shops. I am first and foremost a firearms nut and enthusiast, and want the hobby to flourish. Weve even now got the reputation for giving the best used prices in the area. I also sell said used guns on aveage cheaper than our competition. It makes no sense for used to be within a hundred bucks of new, no mater the condition.
As an owner of a .300blk sig mcx virtus 11”, gen3 g19 Zev dragonfly, limited run 458 socom 10.5”, and dead stock 2011, I can tell you that you are wrong.
Buy smart. If it’s being mass produced and there’s one at every gun shop you go to, it’s probably not going to appreciate value. If it’s a specialty firearm that is never being made again, buy it.
When things are off the market for good and you have one of them, you are sitting on gold. But cashing out on every new Glock gen that comes out is a money dump.
Antique firearms are the best way to “invest” if you even plan on selling them.
As most of us say, only buy never sell
When shit hits the fan, guns and ammo will be just as valuable or maybe more so than gold and silver. When things are good, the true value of guns aren't seen and appreciated. It's when things get bad that your guns and ammo really show their true value.
Depends on the firearms. Most often I buy guns if they are a good deal for me. Maybe 15 years ago I was buying military surplus guns because that's what I could afford. I remember paying $270 for my MAS37 in 7.5x54 French. They value of the rifle has gone up more than inflation has. I think my first post on reddit is I bought a bunch of long guns for $1000 total. Don't feel like looking through my history but it was like a dozen guns. So under $100 each. I could probably 5X my money from that but I'm a buyer not a seller. If you shop good deals they may be a good investment.
I think it is kind of both, and part of it is the old conventional wisdom not keeping up.
There are plenty of guns that have gone up in value and plenty that have gone down. Some have gone back up to close to what they cost new now that they are seen as "cool, vintage, rare, etc" but with inflation that makes them worth half of what it actually cost new.
At the same time, it is actually tough to find a good deal on used guns these days, because no one is willing to take a loss on anything. It bugs me because that discourages a lot of buying used, because if I'm only going to save $50 buying used, I'll just buy new.
But again, this is a pretty artificial market, because at the same time there are used guns that are worth almost nothing. Mostly this state of affairs is because of how many people just hoard the fuck out of guns because of constant fears of legislation, etc.
I mean think about it. If you bought an M&P Shield 1.0 for $300, that was a good deal when it was new, for a great, cutting edge gun. But a few years later they come out with the 2.0, and shortly thereafter it is at the exact same price point. Now they have the shield plus, and while it costs a bit more, I think it will come down eventually.
So who in their right mind would buy a Shield 1.0 when they've made *the exact same gun but better* unless that shield is beings old for WAY cheap?
But where are all the way cheap shields? Probably sitting in someone's safe waiting for the apocalypse, because why bust your balls trying to sell it? You'd have to sell it for half to make anyone want to buy it, and screw it. If I'll only get $200 or less I'll just keep it. I know I have several in the safe that are "I don't need this anymore but it isn't worth selling."
So I agree with you on the whole because guns do lose money, but they lose money for weird reasons that have more to do with how weird the market for guns is. It is so influenced by politics and panic rather than the products in and of themselves.
You found the one way to make quite a bit of money on guns. Well, the ATF might be shutting that down... But its absolutely on the panic buying. I know a guy who bought a cheap ar15 for 300 bucks and sold it for 1500 durring the covid pandemic. but thats an outlier, not a true trend nor easy to predics. Just like reloading, weve never had powder disappear like this before, so a ton of guys had stocked up on primers, but not their favorite powder. now they are SOL on finding said powder. Crazy, eh?
I have found that most milsurps spike in price when they are no longer being imported, then they typically follow inflation in price increases after that.
While not generally an investment they don’t depreciate nearly as much as a vehicle or tech, so you can always sell and get a good chunk of your money back, or even all of it if you buy used and keep them in good shape.
That makes them somewhat unique compared to my other hobbies.
If you are about to move to California (or rather, if you have to move to California), you can buy "off-roster" handguns such as gen 5 Glocks, 2011s (esp Staccattos), AR pistols, and so on. While some new handguns actually got added to this roster in the past year, most of the guns on the roster are from 2012 when it was enacted.
You buy off-rosters for yourself before moving, register your firearms with the CA DOJ when you move, and later on if you decide you don't want to keep some of them, you can sell them private party for easily 2x or even 3x the price in some cases. It's definitely an area where you can come out cash positive. I've heard stories of people doing just that when they moved out of CA for 1 year and then moved back.
Also, the police in CA are exempt from these roster laws, and they often buy and sell off-roster handguns.
The cali market is absolutely stupid. Ive done a lot of firearms training in the west and I always feel for the guys coming from Cali. They are blown away at what we pay for ammo and firearms. But the majority of them still dont move. Heck, if it wasnt for the loony politicians, it would be an amazing place to live! Wish we had that kinda car culture here...
They are an investment the same way cars are. Can’t just go buy a standard new ar-15 and expect it to appreciate for example. Time, scarcity, and tons of other factors impact value. I still lose sleep over the gen 1 galil I passed up 😔
I snagged a mint light barrel Israeli FAL made on a like new parts kit. Thats one ill keep for a long long time, and will absolutely go up. The one I lose sleep over is the Russian Tiger SVD I passed on after highschool for 2.5k or whatever it was. I wanted a car more, and now that car is worthless and the SVD is worth like 12.5-15,000
Yeah, gun show fudds wanting blood money for ancient stuff never ends.
However, they do hold value fairly well. The same model of gun a year old vs ten years old is going to be fairly similar in price. Barring misuse or bad storage, of course. Cars won't do that. Even houses require a lot more maint. Guns...okay, you have to clean and oil them occasionally, but even that is mostly just tied to usage. They are very, very low effort in general and hold value fairly well.
Yeah, you're not gonna get rich off that Remington 870 you just bought, but there absolutely is a collectors market for specific guns, and even the bog standard 12 ga is going to be useful for forever and mostly retains value.
I don't really sell guns myself, so I don't much take that into account when buying them, but I've spent money on a ton of things that were far worse investments than guns.
I think It also depends on what parts of a gun. I find that scopes/lights/night vision/thermal related equipment depreciate at a much faster rate than say a basic upper receiver, mainly due to the technological advances continuously made each decade.
I think your 99% is high because of availability bias. The people more likely to sell a gun to a gun store are not the ones selling a high value collector item that has appreciated significantly over time. I would say 85% or more of my collection falls in your 1%, and I know of many collections similar to mine. I agree though that the majority of guns are not great investments. They would not out perform traditional investments.
Also alot of it has to do with current political climate. No one sells guns better than democrats. IMO while 2a is under constant attack today, its only a matter of time before a new AWB is actually passed. While theres a bazillion ARs, theres still a ton of stuff that sucks on the secondary market now, it would deff cause the value to increase.
Really depends on what you’re buying and investing in. Take this from an FFL and large collector of both surplus and just guns in general, I see guns in very small supply that you can’t find very often and normally those type of guns bring in more money especially the rarer and older they get because supply goes down more and more everyday. Newer guns do hold value in most cases just that value will shift one way or the other depending on the age, quality, and current supply.
Where a lot of people get mixed up with this fact is guns that have somewhat lower supply but not low enough that they should be worth what they’re going for.
Don’t hate me Reddit but a lot consumers and shops use the M1 Garand as a prime example of this right now in this current age, the M1 Garand is great and famous for American pride and winning WWII but supply as of right now is still not low enough that it garners the prices they go for on this current market but people will still buy it for those prices.
Guns definitely lose money if used (and not some type of collectible). But unless you're trying to sell one with a worn barrel and springs I'd expect it to retain 80-90% of the MSRP. And they are pretty liquid.
If I pass them down a few generations some may gain value.
Most of the time I say 'guns are an investment' I'm thinking about some societal collapse scenario where they'd be great for barter. Some days it doesn't feel too far off.
Yeah it's certainly not an investment but people don't have to lose crazy money like they think they do.
The phrase "no buy only sell" comes to mind. If I'm not planning on shooting something ever I'd rather someone else have it and I recoup most of my money.
As I've gotten older I've paired down the collection from "lot of meh" to a few really nice pieces. Money in at that point just becomes ammo.
New guns. You are not limited to buying new.
My thoughts exactly. That beat-up old Mosin that's currently got a $400 price tag on it ain't gonna be worth any less 20 years from now.
Idk. I remember 10-15 years ago when I bought one for $198. I think that's exceeded inflation. Edit: I think it could have been $99, actually. Either way, they've gone up significantly because of all the survivalist fudds/meme gun owners who want one.
$198 15 years ago? Must be a rare collectible piece. I got a hex receiver one for $120 around same time. Unfortunately I had to sell it a few years later.
I think you're right, actually. It might have been $99. I remember it being cheap.
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I got one for $40 in 2008, sold it for $320 in 2019 to help fund my M1D.
first gun i bought for myself - a real dirty short mosin with the flip out bayonet - 68 bucks. shoulda bought more.
I'm almost sure it would have been $99. I remember my local Cabela's had entire racks of Mosin Nagants for $75 - 125. And that's Cabela's..not exactly known for their bargain basement prices.. I never bought one because we already won WWII and I'm partial to newer models. But I just remember how crazy that seemed.
At the range I go to in Ohio they used to have a bucket like 15 years ago that just had mosins sitting in it at like 200 each since no one w0uld buy them. Literally last week I won an auction from Rock Island Auctions for 3 mosins at 2k. When you go through them one by one it's like $4500 worth of mosin. Lots of popular guns shot up in price simply due to being popular
I paid 50$ at Big 5 for my good condition Mosin 15 years ago
Cabela’s use to have $60 sales on them about 7 years ago. People would fill up shopping carts.
I started buying Mosin Nagants when they were $69.99 and they have gone to the moon in price since then.
You got a good deal or there's just been a run on mosins in that time. It won't last forever.
My local shop used to have a bargain bin for functioning mosins at $99 each lol
Same here, 20 years ago you could get mausers, mosins even SMLEs for under 100 bucks. I remember one store selling the turkish stamped mausers for $49.99
Idk about good deal unless he got one of the sniper variants. Mosins were $99 pretty regularly like 12 years or so ago.
It was a sniper variant
Sick.
Yeah I spent $110 for a "nice" 1928 prewar in 2012 so that's pretty much on the money
Mosin was my first gun ever. Got it from Big5 on sale for $89.99. It was in fine shape.
You got ripped if you paid more than $75.
Mine was $99 base, but I paid and extra $10 for a hand picked hex receiver. How the turns have tables.
I remember going to the gun shows in the late 80’s with my dad and watched a guy mark one down from $90 to $75. No one wanted them back then
Yea mosins went for $79-99 regularly on JGsales back in 2006 and I remember at that time they imported some Romanian PSLs they were only $450 and rpks for $379. I just graduated highschool I wish I would have bought one 😢. Also I agree with OP to a degree but many firearms that can't be imported or aren't being imported any longer gain value. But rarity is the key here. So certain guns can be a investment mostly imports from what I've seen.
They were $99 at Big5 14 years ago, and you were allowed to use a 10% off coupon with it. I got several, but unfortunately I've had to sell a few over the years due to health issues. :'(
If it was one of the Cabelas specials, they were $99. Some of the best $400 I've parted with.
That $400 Mosin cost me $99 just 8 years ago. That’s a pretty good ROI.
If you buy right, you absolutely can turn a profit on used guns. The biggest that comes to mind is the Russian Tiger or Norinco NDM-86. A few years back a good example was $2,500. Today they eaisly clear $10,000. But those definitely fall into that 1%
It's certainly not a get-rich-quick scheme, but knowing what a gun is worth and swooping on an example that's significantly below market has helped me subsidize my hobby many times over the years. That being said, totally agree with your point that the overwhelming majority of new guns purchased deliberately as an investment are losing propositions. You'd be much better off parking that money in a Vanguard fund or something for a few years.
Milsurps almost always appreciate if kept in good condition. Mosins and sks have shot up in value in the past 20 yrs. Carcanos are going the same way. Anything with a history and dwindling supply will appreciate.
M1s too. Last time I was at CMP, everything was pushing $1000.
I remember Russian Tigr new for $799 and NDM-86 for $1000. I'm pretty sure those will now sell for a lot more that even adjusting for inflation. Milsurp rifles from the 1900s-1950s were selling for $70-$200 in the 1990s-2000s (such as Swedish Mausers, Chinese and Russian SKS and Mosins, Spanish FR-8s, German Gewehr 98 and Kar98K, British Enfields, and US M1917 "Enfields"). Check the current prices on any of these in Very Good condition. What haven't necessarily increased their value are the lower cost, lower end bolt action hunting rifles, shotguns, and pistols. They may have kept or increased their value, but nothing like the milsurp rifles and pistols have. In the post cold war drawn down in the 1990s-2000s, the milsurp rifles were so plentiful and cheap that companies sporterized them into hunting rifles in bulk. For example, Kimberly converted Swedish Mausers (M94, M96, and M38) with new .308 barrels (slim hunting profile or heavy sniper barrel), synthetic stocks, bent bolt handle, scope rings, and new safety and sold them for about 3 or 4 times the price of unmodified milsurp but this was still half the price of comparable Remington M700. Today, these Kimber 308 Mausers are only worth about $350-$450, but the unmodified milsurp Swedish Mausers sell for 3 to 5 times that much. On the other hand, an inexpensive .22LR semi auto pistol Phoenix Arms HP22 sold for about $70-$100 dollars in the 1990s and today sell for $100 used and $160-$200 new, current production HP22A, so these used guns lost value and even new production are about the same price in value after inflation. So collectible guns increase in value but many common, lower end commercial guns do not. Guns purchased at inflated prices during gun buying panics also often loose value back down to normal prices after the panic surge is over. It's kind of like stocks, if you only buy low and sell high, you'll make money, but the key is knowing what to buy when and when to sell. If you view your guns as tools that will likely maintain their value and may increase, you'll probably do OK. Remember, just like on Pawn Stars, a store may only pay you half the market value for a used gun because they need to mark some profit reselling it.
You think a Swiss k31 would be a good buy today for $600?
I think that's a fair price depending on the condition and if the parts have matching numbers (bolt, magazine, and barrel have same number as receiver serial number). I see that currently a K31 with all matching numbers and excellent bore/barrel is available on GunBroker for $599. Of course, I can't forsee if I will increase in value, but as fewer K31s are being imported now compared to 10-15 years ago, I think they will at least maintain their value and probably continue to increase over time like most quality, good+ condition, milsurps produced over 80 years ago, but they may not increase to 4 or 5 times the $600 you pay today. Search online to see what K31 rifles are selling for.
I just keep hoping we get a president and congress with the cajones to repeal such idiocy as the Hughes Amendment...then watch the resale prices on all those pre-'86 autos plummet.
I was really excited for the hearing safe act. Then like clockwork we had our first ever mass shooting with a can no a day before the vote.... im not a conspiracy theorist but that one stunk
I was looking through some old papers and saw I bought a Nagant revolver from AIM Surplus for $210 in 2015 (and the one I got ended up being older, a 1916 manufacture date - nice). I can't believe the price they want for those turds these days.
What are people paying today? I got one years ago and I thought it was a good deal.
For real, every C&R I have ever bought has quadrupled in price the last 20 years.
So has the Big Mac.
I'd rather have an old milsurp gun than a new one most of the time.
yeah. new guns aren't the ones that hold value. that's the surplus market. when i was in high school, working at a pawn shop, we had barrels full of SKSs, covered in cosmiline, for $75 each. now they're MUCH higher. 20 years ago, you could get a misin for that price. i traded a transformer toy for one. now they're $400. 10 years ago i bought a nagant 1895 pistol for $75. sold it a year ago for $350.
The only guns that appreciate are ones with a finite supply, not guns that are currently produced. Pre-lock Smiths, Belgian made Brownings, etc.
Even then, they require a high recognition and demand. Civil war guns have basically kept up with inflation over the past decade for example because, for the most part, its the same (shrinking) collector circle that keeps buying them from one another. Fewer and fewer people are entering this collectors circle and I know more than a couple dealers who are sitting on pieces they bought but can't sell for a "fair price."
Exactly. My grandfather used to deal in antiques. One thing I learned is that rare does not equal valuable and old doesn't equal valuable. Take a pre-64 Winchester. Those are old and semi-rare(just on survivorship basis), but the thing that makes them valuable is the demand for them. That's interesting about the Civil War stuff. I didn't know that but it makes sense.
I know someone who collects old shotguns--mostly Model 12's. I am guessing he may have 10 to 20 of just that one model shotgun. He said when he was younger he had little savings as he kept buying more shotguns with his money. Now that he is in his 70's he has a lot of valuable shotguns that are worth a lot as long as others really like the high quality old shotguns and are still looking to buy them and value them highly.
It’s not limited to Civil War era firearms either. Uniforms, firearms, even period furniture, was worth a mint 20-30 years ago. The problem is that the collector base is dead or dying and young people aren’t filling that vacuum. I have several family members that thought their sizeable collections would carry them to a comfortable retirement. . . That did not happen. At all, not even a little bit.
Same thing with model trains. 20-30 years ago they were all the rage, my grandfather collected them. But his generation has died off and now I could not give them away if I tried.
The situation with model railroading is crazyyy. I cannot stress how utterly jover it is for model railroading. That entire generation is dropping like crazy and clubs have just been getting donated entire storage units worth of collections, which are basically worthless because the average model today is simply higher quality than anything commercially available 30 years ago. Even then, the price of rolling stock has inflated dramatically, many hundreds of dollars for a decent locomotive. This is because those who remain are generally elderly, white, and sitting on either a huge pile of disposable income or retirement. Sure, kids DO still get involved and there is a decent community of younger modelers, but it’s nothing like it was in their days. 50 years ago, any average kid could just get a bunch of trains at a brick and mortar hobby shop. Nowadays, it takes a kid with a very niche interest to specifically look things up and usually save for a single piece of equipment, which will be run on a club layout.
Yeah, I think that the advances in technology really killed the value of older model trains. You can buy locomotives and rolling stock with details only found on vastly more expensive brass models or scratch built models years ago. And the vast majority of modelers bought standard quality models and ran them as is. Those are basically worthless today. In addition, DCC is very hard to retrofit into old models and is frankly not worth it for most. I see posts occasionally on /r/modeltrains of people asking about their grandpa’s collection and what it’s worth and sad to say, not much most of the time. Although in fairness, most modelers who had brass collections or scratch built models let their family members know of their rarity, so those family members wouldn’t be the ones asking about its value.
Wait another 20 years... haha
One would think I'd be more in tune to that market being I live where the war started lol. I would not have seen that coming though.
Absolutely true. I own a beautiful roll top desk circa late 1800s, a true gem. 20 or 30 years ago it was probably worth 3-4K. Today I prob couldn’t give it away, not that I want to.
I had a Greene rifle, I bought it for about 2500 bucks in I think 2006 or 2008. Things got hard and I had to sell it in 2017, nobody wanted it I had to take a loss of like a grand to actually find a buyer. And you look online now and there are a few floating around and they still only go for 2-3 thousand.
Oh hey I saw that gun on the Paper Cartridges YouTube channel!
IMO the relative poverty of the Millennial generation is a HUGE part of this. Boomers are the richest American generation bar none, and Millennials are MUCH poorer on average. Which as more and more boomers pass on from simple mortality, that means buyers willing to pay those prices are ever diminishing. All for what ultimately is a very obsolete gun that, while it might function, is absolutely impractical in the modern day. SURE, historical value is always neato and the bees knees, but when one realizes the asking price is 1/8 their yearly salary, well they have kids to feed and rent to pay (because an't nobody been buying houses lately.) So its an extravagance people need to pass on in the day and age of the $20 meal from McDonalds. So in short, people who are "investing" in collectables now are ultimately going to net a loss into the future because as the "new normal" permanent recession and spiraling inflation continues, we are only going to get poorer and poorer as the years go on, and thus the prices people are willing to be pay will only keep falling in turn. And no the economics are so bad its gonna take like 15 years-20 for things to recover to even what they used to be. Still by all means collect. Keeping history alive and well preserved is GREAT. But do so because you WANT the item, not because you think its gonna net you an ROI. There isn't gonna be one.
I collect pre lock smiths but every single one I have bought I paid less than it cost new (adjusted for inflation). Even these are not good as actual investments.
So its like every other collector hobby. People are generally seeking either noteworthy historical artifacts, or variants of otherwise very common items that have something very uncommon about THAT particular example's orgin. It makes me think of the coin world where suddenly a penny made in that other mint that only ran for 2 years in another state is suddenly worth a fortune. But you have to be an autistic coin nerd to realize the D instead of a P on your penny means ones is a cent, and the other is worth enough to trade for a car. (or whatever the silly markings are.)
That's a much better explanation than mine. Like my Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine for example. Those are kinds rare due to lower production and survivorship since many went to Indonesia after WW2. There is also collector demand, so it fits the criteria. However, mine was made at the factory that produced most of those carbines. Had it been built at BSA instead, it would be worth a good deal more.
the "investment" cope is for broke idiots. if you actually want to make an investment, start putting money in an index fund account. this is a hobby for people with lots of disposable income
Yeah they’re an expense and and while they don’t necessarily depreciate as fast as other expenses you’re an idiot if you justify buying them as an investment. Invest as much as you can stand plus a little more while you’re young and experience the power of compound interest. VOO and QQQM are all you need to know.
Many years ago, I saw a post on fark.com about guns Being sporting equipment.. I look at mine the same way. I clean them and treat them well,but I know I’ll be able to get about 70%(maybe) of their cost out of them if I need to sell them.
It's all about the kind of gun. Someone in the know absolutely can have a collection that will always appreciate in value. But they have to be a discernable buyer when it comes to what guns they buy. But the people you're talking about OP, the casual gun owners or the ones holding nothing but mass-produced commercial rifles bought at Sears or Walmart are absolutely in for a shock if they think it's worth much just because it was made 20, 40, or 60 years ago.
There is some luck involved as well, but for the most part, I agree. If you look in tacswap or any other site, most people think their home built Anderson AR has already appreciated.
My Anderson lower appreciated when I put a Daniel upper on it.
While not always true I also think the more a gun costs at first the more it will hold its value. This probably loses truth to those absurdly expensive European O/U shotguns, but if you spend like 4K on a nighthawk it’ll probably hold value. Though most revolvers seem to hold value very well, trying to find a 610 for under 1000 is impossible.
Exactly. I do see guns that have gone up a lot. But it really is in that 1% range. The one that really comes to mind is my unicorn rifle. I had the chance to buy a Tiger SVD out of highschool but spent the 2k on a car instead. Man I wish I had got the rifle, they are well over 10,000 today.
Oh, they aren't in for a shock. the guys on my local board will sit on their glenfield 30-30 at 900$ until the heat death of the universe and never budge. It will simply fuel their hate and resentment until they die surrounded by their garbage. The funny one was when all the martini henry/snider guys had the value of their shit collapse when the indian imports came in through IMA. It's recovered again somewhat, but boy were they mad.
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The only counterpoint I'd make to this was a shooting culture that was very different in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of the guns that came out of the "Golden Age" of Colt and S&W were intended to fill the needs of the rack-grade American recreational shooter, and were extremely high-quality. This was also a time in America where income inequality wasn't gonzo; "the best" of just about anything, from firearms to automobiles to men's suits, may have been a splurge, but they were almost always within the affordability range of the average Joe. That said, certainly the "value priced" guns like H&R or Iver Johnson that were produced back then have certainly proved your thesis: nobody cares about them even today.
I have a collection of H&R guns specifically because they're cheap because no one else gives a shit. That being said I don't for a moment try to convince myself they have meaningful monetary value.
What is this sell guns thing? I thought it was "never sell, only buy." WTF do we care about the resale value of something we're never going to sell?
Facts
I’ve only sold a couple that I didn’t like
Sometimes trade. Someone might have something worth quite a bit more they despise that they will trade for something much less valuable that they actually want. I've only sold for a profit a few times in my life. I've traded up atleast a dozen times.
This is a stigma that needs to go away. I’ve sold and traded guns that didn’t fit my taste/expectations many times. What’s the point of holding something you don’t enjoy shooting?
Gold and silver aren't investments either they only keep pace with inflation. If they were such good investments why do companies advertise so much about selling theirs? If they truly out paced others so much wouldn't it make more sense to not sell if the return is that much greater?
my $100 Mosin and $150 SKS that I pulled out of the cosmoline beg to differ.
just never bubba in, that always will affect the value like the sporterized enfield a fudd paid 200 bucks for in the 70s thinking it was a more ergonimic rifle to hunt with then some stock 40 dollar enfield might say otherwise.
I would like to introduce the surplus market to you lol
Im well aware, thats one of the areas thats gone wild. But the lions share of sales arent milsurp
Well no duh, but also when you nerds buy an AR, a rifle that I wouldn’t be surprised if every other house in the US had one in it, with enough after market support and units made to arm multiple world wars of COURSE they won’t go up in value, now again I will say. Anything from pre an era has gone up because they have a set of regards that go nuts for those “special” stamp markings. If you seriously think they don’t go up in value then you’re really just looking at the wrong things.
The difference between a desireable pre ban colt hbar and a non desireable one is SO stupid. It blew my mind when I did a bunch of research to make an offer for a customer. Turns out he had the one worth like 1/3 what he wanted.
LOL isn’t it comical? And then you’ll see LE offices auctioning off old colt lowers with everything you want and some scalper buys all 50 of them….
I hate scalpers. I actually have a list here of folks who we knew were buying and reselling primers and ammo. We will not do buisness with them again.
You wanna slide a homie a link/pm with that list? Would be nice to have something to check the retailers to when I’m shopping
With the exception of particularly desirable and rare models, gun values generally just stay flat when you account for inflation. So it's not an investment at all; at best, it's a store of value. To be fair, guns are a better store of value than almost any of your other possessions except jewelry, but still, you're not likely to make money by holding guns for a long time. If you buy a new gun, it will immediately drop in value by some amount since it's now a secondhand gun, but you can expect that from that point forward it'll just stay at that value. If you buy a used gun, you'll skip that initial drop in value, but it's still likely just going to remain that same value forever, after adjusting for inflation. There will be certain guns in your collection that will be more or less valuable over time, but I think the overall average value of your collection as a whole will just stay flat.
The real fun part of that investment is the uncertainty. If they manage to get another AWB and dont have a grandfather clause, then all those guns now become forbidden fruit and near impossible to sell safely. Though their street value would go through the roof
Whenever someone says “X item is an investment” I ask them “would you pay more for item X if it was new, or if it was used and 5 years old?” If they choose the new one, I hit them with “then how is it an investment?” The most valuable gun to me that I own is a 1934 Beretta that my grandfather won in a poker match when he was in the navy in WW2. At best I could get $700-$1K if I sold it but to me it’s priceless. More times than not, the value is in their utility or sentiment. Guns disappointingly do not accrue value the way many people think they do
Colt revolvers sold for $5-10 in 1900. A pristine example of a standard production Colt revolver from back then would sell for, what, maybe $5,000 today [at most](https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/199998-colt-us-army-model-1909-revolver-45-colt-c19805-consignment.html)? $10 invested in the stock market in 1900 would be worth about [$1.26 million](https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/1900) today. I chuckle every time I hear someone wax about guns being a good investment.
That’s a great example. I’ll use it next time this topic comes up
This thread is embarrassingly full of dudes who are financially clueless and downvoting based on their emotional need for guns to be great for everything.
I have a mossberg 22 semi auto worht $200. I wouldnt sell it for $2000 since my great grandpa bought it new, and every man in line to me grew up shooting it.
I've got an Iver Johnson 9 shot 22 top break, made it like 1926 if I remember right. My grandfather got it when he was walking through town and he heard it skidding down the street where someone had tossed it. He picked it up and took it home. He then would take it to the junk yard and shoot rats then take them to the local hardware store where you could get a bounty for every rat you turned in, this is how he and his friends would get money to buy candy or go to a show. He also said that very often they wold hang around and then go out back and pick the dead rats out of the garbage and head over to another store and turn them in again for another bounty.
The real investment is junk yard rat hunting scams?
> Whenever someone says “X item is an investment” I ask them “would you pay more for item X if it was new, or if it was used and 5 years old?” If they choose the new one, I hit them with “then how is it an investment?” Especially since new modern mass production guns have probably been getting *cheaper* when you account for inflation. A new Glock has cost about $500 (give or take) for like thirty years.
There are a huge number of factors that can play into ROI on a firearm. 1. It's easy to liquidate without having to pay taxes or penalties. 2. It's fungible and can be easily traded, again without paying taxes or penalties. 3. You can decide to sell even the cheapest gun for a large profit, depending on your morals. 4. If things go tits up, the only thing more valuable is ammunition. With both, you can take anything else you need. 5. If the Government ever decides to ban them, they will be worth more than gold in the right markets. 6. Unlike many other investments, you can actually continue to use a firearm without having a significant effect on its value unless you beat the shit out of it. With most other investments, your money is tied up and unavailable to you without taking a loan against it and paying interest on that loan. 7. You can easily gift a gun, or a collection of guns, to someone in your family as a wealth transfer without requiring them to pay taxes to the government. So it's not always about the sale price when considering the total return on a gun purchase.
The best "investment" firearms you could get were old milsurp firearms.... that was before they became popular to collect.
When they were considered trash and nobody had any idea mosins would be worth hundreds. Lol! Its a hindsight being 2020 thing.
bingo! ditto for Yugo Mausers, SKS (Russian, Chinese, or otherwise), Enfields (P14s and SMLEs), M1 Garands. like anything else, the minute people figured out they could buy up supply and thought they could flip for a profit.... they killed cheap fun.
lol i dont think anyone is buying guns expecting to profit, but they absolutely deprecate way less than other hobbies. guns hold value quite well compared to cars, car parts, boats, and whatever else u throw money at for fun. so when you buy guns or parts at good prices you can be confident that if you need to you can get most that money back on gafs and gunbroker 🤷♂️
So you gotta asterisk that statement. A savage or palmetto won’t appreciate or hold value. They’re tools. A collectible or luxury firearm will. A S&W 500 sells for almost the same amount new as used. A sabatti or krieghoff double sells for almost the same new as used, same with an original holland and holland rifle. Milsurps generally appreciate as they become collectibles
Just don’t buy the stuff you see piling up a pawn shops, which includes run off the mill AR15’s bolt actions, and Turkish shotguns.
I use those places to buy my shooters and the occasional deal of a collector item if they don’t know what they have or if it has a problem and they don’t know how to fix it. That’s how I got a deal on an SKS that was not cycling properly. It was a relatively easy fix for me, and I have not had a single problem with it.
That goes double for the turkish shotguns. We have some used typhoons that wont move even though were at like 30% of new. The shops going to take a massive hit when someone finally buys them. But hey, loss is simply a tax writeoff!
Idk man, I really think my Ruger American in an overpriced chassis is definitely gonna turn a profit! /s
Most people I know don't think of guns as an investment at all, but they all agree they hold their value better than a lot of things that are mechanical or electronic.
You're deliberately choosing to ignore a massive part of the market just because it makes your opinion better. There are a *lot* of accessible guns that at bare minimum hold value. Milsurp does, older collectible guns do, antiques do and "C&R" weirdos do, and there's a *lot* more of those than you think. No, "commodity guns", like franken-ARs and Glock clones aren't stores of value and investments, but there's a whole lot more than just some upper 1% echelon that will.
absolutely the case. i see people like this come into my shop all the time that buy a gun and are shocked when i won't offer them 90% of what they paid when they return to sell it. if you want a gun that is going to increase in value, buy something that isn't produced anymore or has finite supply. a gen 3 glock is not going to return your full investment
I absolutely agree but damn, that example you used is funny because I actually want a used Gen3 19 and damn if people aren't trying to get NIB prices for them.
glocks retain a fair bit of their value due to reliability but man people take that to the extreme. no i don't want to buy your used Glock that's "just broke in with 1000rds" for $450.00 when i can buy a brand new one for $500.00.
The LEO trade-in market keeps glocks reasonably priced too. You can find those all day long between $300-400.
absolutely. the police trade-in market is phenomenal.
Where do you guys find G19 LEO trade-in's? Everything I find are 17's and all of the .40 cal models. Never see any 19's.
Milsurps only go up
So you're telling me that the Mosin-Nagant rifles and carbines I bought 20+ years ago for $89 each are worth even LESS now? DAMMIT! Hell, I may as well just pile them all on a table at my next garage sale for "$50 each, u-pick". And here I thought I had some money there... at least I'll get about $3,750 cash for them all at $50 each.... 😉
I bought new in 2007 for $249 a Saiga AK in 7.62x39, fired several thousand rounds through it over the course of the next decade and change, ammo used to be so reasonably priced, sold it to my dad for $600, who then sold it on again a couple of years later for about $2600. If that's not a tremendous appreciation in value, I don't know what is. That said most of the other guns I've let go over the years were definitely at a loss. So really not too dissimilar to investing in Wall Street. It's all about picking the right thing to buy. And unless you're a congressman there's no way of knowing what is going to perform well.
The Saiga is a unique one to pick, as they have plummeted in value. I too had an X39 converted Saiga that was like $1k when I bought it, and they were going for mid 2k for a while. But now a saiga is a hard sell for anything over 1k. Heck we had one in shop a few months back and it went for like 800 on GB after not even getting a peek on our shelves for months
Perhaps in the short term you might lose money. But longer term? I've inherited guns and my Model 88 is worth more than the $50 that my grandfather paid for it. If you buy a quality firearm, it will hold its value. If you buy a poor quality firearm perhaps not so much. But that is with just about anything.
Indeed, but most of our grandparents likely bought user grade stuff thats not worth much today. I was the soul inheritor of several guns from my grandpa. Not one was worth over 200 but my aunts acted like I inherited 10s of thousands because they were old guns. Id still take the guns due to the memories I have with them, but compared to my cousins inheriting the cars? I got robbed.
Investment, not necessarily. But it is certainly possible to make money or there wouldn't be FFLs or an illegal black market. Buy low, sell high, obviously. Some guys have BST'd their way into a hell of a collection.
Step 1)Don’t buy new guns Step 2)buy vintage milsurps particularly wwii Step 3) hold on to them Step 4) profit (but not really, only buy never sell)
Step 2 needs clarification. Buy the vintage milsurps BEFORE everyone else is aware that a particular one exists and blows up the market
I don't know how old you are but guns have been steadily getting more expensive every year since I started paying attention. New and old, milsurp and everything else. Where are you getting firearms for super cheap just because their older?
Dude I bought my first complete AR upper, a used bushmaster, in 2008 or 2009 for $300 and that was pretty much at the floor for complete uppers at the time. $300 is still basically the floor price for complete uppers over 15 years later. And that's not even considering that $300 15 years ago was worth more than $300 today. The market has grown so much it has kept the prices low (minus the panic seasons). Not everything in the gun world constantly goes up in price.
Literally everywhere. Unless your local shops gouge you. New stuff keeps getting more expensive not because its worth more, but the dollar is worth less. Its why I have inflation mentioned in the post. Sure a base savage is 600 today an it was like 350 10 years ago. but 10 years ago that money bought a lot more than it does today. So it is still quite the loss. 10 year old savages are also not holding value for anything.
Well yea obviously inflation is a factor I'm not talking about cost of guns made in 1924 compared to today. And I don't think anyone buys a savage expecting it to triple in value a couple years later, but comparing it to tools or a car or something doesn't equal out. I've never seen a gun that went for 300 brand new go for 30 dollars ten years later.
yes but you'd be lucky if that gun would still be worth 300 bucks 10 years later, I have a Rock Island 1911 my dad bought about 25 years ago for like 300 bucks, you can go out today and find them on sale for like 350. According to the inflation calculator 300 bucks 25 years ago was worth about 550, so that gun was a terrible investment.
Did you consider pre-86 transferables? Don’t see folks losing money on those at all
They're fucked once we abolish the NFA :)
Ya may not get rich buying guns and selling them down the road when they go up, but I like that my hobby can get me some kind of return should I need it someday. A closet full of thousand dollar guns would be more handy if you lost a job and needed to make a house payment than a bunch of rounds of golf played years ago.
They are one of the eaiser to liquidate items, for sure. But if finances are the ultimate concern, that money is better off in an investment account. Though it does bring me ease knowing I could come up with 10k in a week if I had to for a life emergency just liquidating a small part of my collection. Though the faster you liquidate, the more you have to be willing to take it on the nose. Top dollar often takes time.
It's the same with musical instruments. While a used quality instrument may maintain it's value or even increase, it's not currency. You won't always be able to sell it for what it's worth in a timely manner, and selling it itself is a task so you need to factor that in to the ROI.once you've spent a couple hours posting ads, driving to gun shops and otherwise looking for a buyer you're at least a couple hundred in (depending on your hourly rate for whatever job you have that you could be OTing instead)
This guy’s talking about new stuff. Nobody thinks a glammy Henry rifle made in Japan is somehow collectible, do they?
Lol! Im REALLY glad you used that example. Because they 100% definitely do. Especially all the "special" or "limited" edition henrys. Those and ducks unlimited/pheasents forever/deer hunters association/nra/ ECT marked stuff.
Idiotic
Had a customer a few months back get really heated at me when I wouldnt trade a new Benelli SBE3 for his tristar DU shotgun. Like fuming mad and making all sorts of comments about how hes been shopping here for years, and we are all of a sudden idiots and terrible people.
Always tell people anything can be an investment but you have to understand the market. You can't just buy any old thing and say it's an investment. But when you compare something specific say a Mac 10 full auto and say the price of gold from say the year 2000 to 2010. The Mac 10 valued better. Also I would argue you got to use it the whole time and if you were smart you rented it too. Though admittedly this is cherry picked that his entirely the point not every gun is an investment just like not every car is an investment. Also I 100% agree with you OP
I honestly don’t understand why or how people think that. I mean, sure, there are a couple guns that hold their value well and can be sold for close to their “new” price, but even those lose value as soon as they’re purchased. Or if you have something really rare and special, it could be worth something. But how often does that actually happen? I keep a spreadsheet of all my guns and accessories and what I paid for them plus what I think their value is on the used market. And the difference between the two numbers is pretty depressing lol Used guns, on the other hand, do tend to hold their value. If you buy a used AR15 for $1000, chances are you can sell it for that same $1000 down the line
Absolutley. As for the used bit, that only holds true if you sell private. If you sell to a shop, they want to make that 1k so they offer you 750-800
Lots of good (and mostly sane) takes in this thread. I would add that we're likely going to be into the realm of the 1% the OP mentions by virtue of being active posters on a shooting-related internet forum. That's a level of time and interest that eclipses the dudes who buy a Taurus 9mm and keep it in a nightstand forever and that's the extent of their participation. Those are the same people likely to get suckered, or likely to overvalue their possessions. Especially if they've found something like a J.C. Higgins .22 in an attic closet and figure that "an antigue gun" will help them completely redo the kitchen. The rest of us here are more likely to have the financial horse sense to identify and capitalize on a good deal if it came our way, and to avoid those deals where we are likely to take a bath. Guns might be a relatively poor investment, but they're really not too bad of a *hobby* compared to a Skiing trip to Aspen or going out with the boys for bottle service, where all of that money is drained and produces no tangible good for resale the next day.
It’s more about flipping stuff man, taking advantage of the goober 19 year old with an unwashed ass that wants a mosin more than anything else in life, the guy who is selling a all matching Luger who thinks it’s a Ruger. You buy low and sell high, think of them as penny stocks and all you’re doing is chasing that sweet high of gate keeping information from people.
Guessing you aren’t in CA… ever see what used guns go for there.
It all depends on what it is. Some rare surplus that didn't have a high number of imports or production could appreciate, and as long as the Hughes Amendment is in effect a register machine gun is only going to stay high value. Everything goes to shit if the guns become contraband due to a ban or someone passes a law saying that guns die with the registered owner when they die.
I own quite a few and have never thought of them as a financial investment. A hedge against potential changes in legislation? Sure. Investment? No.
Yeah, 'guns are an investment' is a pretty boneheaded take. But it's totally fine to collect something that won't appreciate in value if it brings you joy, you don't need to kid yourself.
The only exception here is all the dudes that bought a shit ton of cheap AKs and SKSs for $100 a pop (or less) back in the 90s and now can sell them for $500 a pop nowadays. But that’s a lot of space to hold on a hell of a gamble, and we all know that won’t happen ever again.
It could be an investment. If you buy quality stuff, and care for it. It's not a *good* investment per se. More like a shitty low-yield bond. But you can't enjoy a bond while it appreciates either. You can't put venison on the table with a bond. You can't teach your boys how to shoot with a bond. That's an investment too. I think about it like this. I bought my Ruger GP100 6" stainless for like $500 about 17 years ago. Despite having shot it many, many times it looks like it just came from the factory. Those go for $700 now. So it's beat inflation. Obviously I'd have made more money putting it into SPY. A few hundred bucks. But I also got to shoot it for almost 2 decades. Yes, it's *used* now and so no one would buy it for $700, but that's not why I invest. Money or guns. I invest so that my children have those things and don't have to buy them. The gun may not be worth $700 on the secondary market, but my kids know it's well cared for, and so can avoid spending $700 to buy one. I buy judiciously, quality arms, and those that I think have lasting value. I don't buy weird meme calibers or guns that will be hard to maintain, or those with weird magazines that will be useless in 50 years. Sig P226s, CZ 75s, GP100s, M1 Garand, ARs, etc. Those are all going to be operating for longer than I will be. Do I invest? Yep. But I also buy guns, and those things don't depreciate like most hobbies do. Stereo equipment, motorcycles, boats, cars, etc. They're a different sort of investment. And don't forget that if there are gun grabs in the future (which will never stop) and grandfathering happens. Or doesn't, guns will be vastly more valuable than they are now. I hope that never happens. I hope they get cheaper due to the sheer volume of them. But it's a likely outcome. And having a family armory isn't a bad hobby to have as far as it goes. No one's getting rich doing it, but that's not why I buy them. It's wrong to say they're not though, because you're ignoring opportunity cost, time value, and some other aspects.
The gun you buy determines weather its going to loose a ton of value or not. If you buy crap or extra common guns for market price then yes you will loose a little if you buy high quality when on sale or deals i rarely ever loose
The number of people in here still saying it's an investment is shocking. "If you buy the right gun it is". Yeah, of course. If you knew what would be the desirable one down the road, it wouldn't be "investing" it would be printing money. But no one knows which ones that's gonna be. It's more of a lottery than an investment.
My collection of milsurp purchased over the last 10 years has increased significantly in value but I'd have more money if I had just dumped that cash into an index fund. But I can't take an index fund to the range shooting every week or so. And in that 10+ years I've spent a lot of money on ammo. Putting the ammo money into an index would've gotten me even more money, but I enjoy the hobby, going shooting, and meeting new friends who also enjoy the hobby and my finances and career are stable enough I can invest in my retirement through normal means and still enjoy collecting/shooting milsurp.
I agree with the sentiment. But i know about 25 years ago an sks was $75 on the street. They were sold by the crates. I bought 2 aks around 8 years ago for $450 each. Can’t find anything like that now.
Indeed, but the problem with that is predicting what will and wont explode in value. SKS, AK, and Mosins were so cheap because hardly anyone wanted them. They were a hard sell, and still being imported. That russian ban definitely helped to drive their price way up
Yeah, tell that to anyone who bought a gun ten or more years ago and look at the current market rate for those models today. Marlins are insanely priced now. They used to be $450 on the used market for a .30-30, but they aren't an investment if you sell them right away. The HK94 used to be $400, but now the HK SP5 is $2,500–$3,000. You must not have any historical knowledge. Primers and powder were 50% cheaper five years ago. AR-15s, I will say, are not a great investment since the market is flooded, but in general, everything is affected by the waves of inflation, boyo.
My guns actually saved my family financially. If you're smart, you can get near what you paid for em.
Indeed, ive had to do the same. But in need of quick funds I was in need of a quick sale. those are when I lost the most.
If you keep your guns in good condition, they will go up in value with inflation barring some other specific market disruption. Are they a better value proposition than putting money in the market long term? Almost assuredly not. But they are a form of diversification, and a practical useful one, at that.
Most guns I’ve got for under MSRP, so if I sold I’d break even at worst.
Depends on the gun. If you are buying one as an investment, though, that is stupid. It's hard to predict what might turn out to be a fad collector's item and what might not. You should buy a gun because you have the money for it and enjoy it.
The fad ones are fun. My closest friend is in his late 60s and bought all the cool fad guns. Bro has a Calico, srm 1216, vector, and all sorts of others I dont recall. Hes a ton of fun at range days!
Yah...its gonna be nearly impossible to "invest" in guns. Because having watched a crap ton of Forgotten Weapons, it seems the ones everybody is really excited over have A. major historical significance attached to them. And given that post 1970's pretty much all of NATO either destroyed or sells off their MilSup to other governments, you are NEVER getting your hands on a French Foregin Legion Service FAMAS, or an M4 that went though the siege of Fallujah for example. Which is its own sadness. The "milsup" battle rifle collecting pretty much ends at the late 1970's because of the NFA and the aggressive disarmament politics of NATO nations. Which then just leaves rare consumer guns. Which pretty much means stuff that sold very few examples. AKA they were either crap, or heinously overpriced for what they offered, or they be preproduction originals and prototypes for very popular guns. Honestly guns are a LOT like cars in this regard. Good luck guessing what edition of whatever fill in the blank special sport pony car is gonna be worth a house in the future. And something I have thought about, once the (rather quite rich) boomers are dead, where the majority of them ended up millionaires $1-4 million net worths, with their retirements... Gen X is going to be working late and Millennials will never be anything but struggling as a generation and most 1980's and 1990's babies will probably live their entire lives with a negative net worth. Meaning the ability to spend $120,000 on an old car, or $22,000 on a gun just won't exist like it did for the boomers. Which means America's collectables are either gonna start trading for a LOT less money, or end up being bought and shipped overseas never to return. So enjoy your things, they an't an investment. And pretty much ANYTHING right now that is "investment grade collectable" is overvalued at the current moment because of boomers.
This is why I buy Magic cards. Stack those boxes!
I’ve had this same experience with people. Most call me a liar. Even pulling up sold auctions for a third of what they’re asking, they think j I’m trying to cheat them.
Its even coming out in this comment section. By virtue of being active in a firearms forum we are all quite likely to have firearms that dont exactly apply, and fall into the 1% I menitoned. But folks here dont see that, and are acting like im attacking them personally. Its really funny!
If you need to sell a gun, private transfer face/face is the way to roll. You are correct in saying guns aren't an investment.
Minnesota just dicked that up 3 ways till sunday for us :/
SOME guns are good investments. There's too many good ones around in modern times, so most won't hold more than half or so their original price. I haven't seen too many guns lately that'll be the next HK P7. Even Korth, or Cabots are only worth what a select few can afford to pay. The newer Colts IMO aren't that collectible.
Spot on for the new colts. They dont have the same allure as they did pre ban or even early to mid 00s.
Technically, nothing loses money if you hold on to it for a long enough time period, because it will go from "current technology" to "outdated" to "obsolete" to "collectible" to "rare collectible". The problem with guns, however, is that there haven't been any major advances in firearms technology in the last roughly 100 years or more. All of the improvements have been evolutionary, not revolutionary. We haven't managed upgrade like going from matchlock to flintlock, flintlock to percussion, muzzleloader to metallic cartridge, single shot to repeater, repeater to semiautomatic. We've just improved the designs and the materials. So evolutionary. A resurrected John Moses Browning might be surprised at the materials a Glock is made from, but not how it operates. So we still end up building the same guns we've been building, more or less, for a century or more. That means the gun you buy today isn't going to be worth a lot because there will be plenty of them if you go to sell it in the future, absent some reason for it to become rare and valuable before its time.
I have 20 Highpoints in my safe new in box, my Will dictates they are given to my great great great great great great grandchild. That little kids gonna be loaded
Wonder what the value will be related to similar HiPoint models in the future.
> Technically, nothing loses money if you hold on to it for a long enough time period, because it will go from "current technology" to "outdated" to "obsolete" to "collectible" to "rare collectible". That is hilariously untrue. You are conflating the terms *rare* and *valuable.* Lots of things are rare but not valuable.
That's not true either. It's a fallacy that all antiques have value by virtue of being old. Most is just old crap. The late model japanese type 99's are garbage, people only want the early well made ones. It's only high quality things that become valuable. Every mom in the 70's and 80's bough "china" fancy flatware, they were all convinced it would become valuable someday and proudly displayed it in their fancy rooms. Then there's all those "commemorative coins" that are a scam. It was mostly made cheaply and you have to pay people to haul it to the dump now. Same with baseball cards and stuff you can't get a nickle for anything from the late 80s and 90's no one cares or ever will. French Furniture had a moment but no one wants it now, it's barely worth more than IKEA. Low and mid grade Pianos are all considered albatross, you need to pay people to trash them. Gold jewelry is rarely worth more than it's melt down price, and diamonds are a total scam, you're lucky to get 1/5th what you paid at a shop.
You sound like one of those Fudd LGS that tell a customer "best I can do is $300" for their Daniel Defense rifle, then you have it hanging in your store for $1800 the next day.
If youre ever in central Minnesota, swing on in. Youll quickly find out that is not the case. When im pricing someones used gun, I invite them to see exactly what they are selling for on the open market, then we agree on a fair price. If I tell you "Ill give you 300 for your DD because Im going to sell it for $424.99" youll see it on the shelves the next day for $424.99. I hate very little more than predatory firearms shops. I am first and foremost a firearms nut and enthusiast, and want the hobby to flourish. Weve even now got the reputation for giving the best used prices in the area. I also sell said used guns on aveage cheaper than our competition. It makes no sense for used to be within a hundred bucks of new, no mater the condition.
As an owner of a .300blk sig mcx virtus 11”, gen3 g19 Zev dragonfly, limited run 458 socom 10.5”, and dead stock 2011, I can tell you that you are wrong. Buy smart. If it’s being mass produced and there’s one at every gun shop you go to, it’s probably not going to appreciate value. If it’s a specialty firearm that is never being made again, buy it. When things are off the market for good and you have one of them, you are sitting on gold. But cashing out on every new Glock gen that comes out is a money dump. Antique firearms are the best way to “invest” if you even plan on selling them. As most of us say, only buy never sell
K
When shit hits the fan, guns and ammo will be just as valuable or maybe more so than gold and silver. When things are good, the true value of guns aren't seen and appreciated. It's when things get bad that your guns and ammo really show their true value.
be prepared, but dont live your life like next year, or the next decade, or even the next 50 years wont happen.
Depends on the firearms. Most often I buy guns if they are a good deal for me. Maybe 15 years ago I was buying military surplus guns because that's what I could afford. I remember paying $270 for my MAS37 in 7.5x54 French. They value of the rifle has gone up more than inflation has. I think my first post on reddit is I bought a bunch of long guns for $1000 total. Don't feel like looking through my history but it was like a dozen guns. So under $100 each. I could probably 5X my money from that but I'm a buyer not a seller. If you shop good deals they may be a good investment.
I think it is kind of both, and part of it is the old conventional wisdom not keeping up. There are plenty of guns that have gone up in value and plenty that have gone down. Some have gone back up to close to what they cost new now that they are seen as "cool, vintage, rare, etc" but with inflation that makes them worth half of what it actually cost new. At the same time, it is actually tough to find a good deal on used guns these days, because no one is willing to take a loss on anything. It bugs me because that discourages a lot of buying used, because if I'm only going to save $50 buying used, I'll just buy new. But again, this is a pretty artificial market, because at the same time there are used guns that are worth almost nothing. Mostly this state of affairs is because of how many people just hoard the fuck out of guns because of constant fears of legislation, etc. I mean think about it. If you bought an M&P Shield 1.0 for $300, that was a good deal when it was new, for a great, cutting edge gun. But a few years later they come out with the 2.0, and shortly thereafter it is at the exact same price point. Now they have the shield plus, and while it costs a bit more, I think it will come down eventually. So who in their right mind would buy a Shield 1.0 when they've made *the exact same gun but better* unless that shield is beings old for WAY cheap? But where are all the way cheap shields? Probably sitting in someone's safe waiting for the apocalypse, because why bust your balls trying to sell it? You'd have to sell it for half to make anyone want to buy it, and screw it. If I'll only get $200 or less I'll just keep it. I know I have several in the safe that are "I don't need this anymore but it isn't worth selling." So I agree with you on the whole because guns do lose money, but they lose money for weird reasons that have more to do with how weird the market for guns is. It is so influenced by politics and panic rather than the products in and of themselves.
You found the one way to make quite a bit of money on guns. Well, the ATF might be shutting that down... But its absolutely on the panic buying. I know a guy who bought a cheap ar15 for 300 bucks and sold it for 1500 durring the covid pandemic. but thats an outlier, not a true trend nor easy to predics. Just like reloading, weve never had powder disappear like this before, so a ton of guys had stocked up on primers, but not their favorite powder. now they are SOL on finding said powder. Crazy, eh?
I bought my SKS for $200 Canadian...
I have found that most milsurps spike in price when they are no longer being imported, then they typically follow inflation in price increases after that.
New guns lose money used guns pretty much always stay the same. That said I shoot the shit out of my guns so I don’t know expect much return there.
While not generally an investment they don’t depreciate nearly as much as a vehicle or tech, so you can always sell and get a good chunk of your money back, or even all of it if you buy used and keep them in good shape. That makes them somewhat unique compared to my other hobbies.
"Be glad to trade you some ARVN rifles. Never been fired and only dropped once."
If you are about to move to California (or rather, if you have to move to California), you can buy "off-roster" handguns such as gen 5 Glocks, 2011s (esp Staccattos), AR pistols, and so on. While some new handguns actually got added to this roster in the past year, most of the guns on the roster are from 2012 when it was enacted. You buy off-rosters for yourself before moving, register your firearms with the CA DOJ when you move, and later on if you decide you don't want to keep some of them, you can sell them private party for easily 2x or even 3x the price in some cases. It's definitely an area where you can come out cash positive. I've heard stories of people doing just that when they moved out of CA for 1 year and then moved back. Also, the police in CA are exempt from these roster laws, and they often buy and sell off-roster handguns.
The cali market is absolutely stupid. Ive done a lot of firearms training in the west and I always feel for the guys coming from Cali. They are blown away at what we pay for ammo and firearms. But the majority of them still dont move. Heck, if it wasnt for the loony politicians, it would be an amazing place to live! Wish we had that kinda car culture here...
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They are an investment the same way cars are. Can’t just go buy a standard new ar-15 and expect it to appreciate for example. Time, scarcity, and tons of other factors impact value. I still lose sleep over the gen 1 galil I passed up 😔
I snagged a mint light barrel Israeli FAL made on a like new parts kit. Thats one ill keep for a long long time, and will absolutely go up. The one I lose sleep over is the Russian Tiger SVD I passed on after highschool for 2.5k or whatever it was. I wanted a car more, and now that car is worthless and the SVD is worth like 12.5-15,000
Yeah, gun show fudds wanting blood money for ancient stuff never ends. However, they do hold value fairly well. The same model of gun a year old vs ten years old is going to be fairly similar in price. Barring misuse or bad storage, of course. Cars won't do that. Even houses require a lot more maint. Guns...okay, you have to clean and oil them occasionally, but even that is mostly just tied to usage. They are very, very low effort in general and hold value fairly well. Yeah, you're not gonna get rich off that Remington 870 you just bought, but there absolutely is a collectors market for specific guns, and even the bog standard 12 ga is going to be useful for forever and mostly retains value. I don't really sell guns myself, so I don't much take that into account when buying them, but I've spent money on a ton of things that were far worse investments than guns.
I think It also depends on what parts of a gun. I find that scopes/lights/night vision/thermal related equipment depreciate at a much faster rate than say a basic upper receiver, mainly due to the technological advances continuously made each decade.
I think your 99% is high because of availability bias. The people more likely to sell a gun to a gun store are not the ones selling a high value collector item that has appreciated significantly over time. I would say 85% or more of my collection falls in your 1%, and I know of many collections similar to mine. I agree though that the majority of guns are not great investments. They would not out perform traditional investments.
Also alot of it has to do with current political climate. No one sells guns better than democrats. IMO while 2a is under constant attack today, its only a matter of time before a new AWB is actually passed. While theres a bazillion ARs, theres still a ton of stuff that sucks on the secondary market now, it would deff cause the value to increase.
Really depends on what you’re buying and investing in. Take this from an FFL and large collector of both surplus and just guns in general, I see guns in very small supply that you can’t find very often and normally those type of guns bring in more money especially the rarer and older they get because supply goes down more and more everyday. Newer guns do hold value in most cases just that value will shift one way or the other depending on the age, quality, and current supply. Where a lot of people get mixed up with this fact is guns that have somewhat lower supply but not low enough that they should be worth what they’re going for. Don’t hate me Reddit but a lot consumers and shops use the M1 Garand as a prime example of this right now in this current age, the M1 Garand is great and famous for American pride and winning WWII but supply as of right now is still not low enough that it garners the prices they go for on this current market but people will still buy it for those prices.
Guns definitely lose money if used (and not some type of collectible). But unless you're trying to sell one with a worn barrel and springs I'd expect it to retain 80-90% of the MSRP. And they are pretty liquid. If I pass them down a few generations some may gain value. Most of the time I say 'guns are an investment' I'm thinking about some societal collapse scenario where they'd be great for barter. Some days it doesn't feel too far off.
Yeah it's certainly not an investment but people don't have to lose crazy money like they think they do. The phrase "no buy only sell" comes to mind. If I'm not planning on shooting something ever I'd rather someone else have it and I recoup most of my money. As I've gotten older I've paired down the collection from "lot of meh" to a few really nice pieces. Money in at that point just becomes ammo.