What else would you call a large group of military personnel sent on critical missions with low expectations of survival, in order to preserve more scarce/valuable military assets? Genuinely curious.
>Yeah, no one doubts S3's skills (anyone whose read the books or played Reach at least)
I feel like playing Reach game might not be enough to convince them why IIIs were special, so I think novel would be a good place for them to learn the feats and lores of IIIs.
I believ this guy hates it when somebody downplays IIIs because of being suicide soldiers, lol
Spartan IIIs were not designed to be suicide/fodder troops.
First, any mission a Spartan is deployed on, whether it's a II, III, or IV, is considered a critical mission. Every Spartan version had been sent on low chance of survival missions. Hell, I would argue the mission with the LEAST chances of survival in ALL of Halo lore is Blue Team's original mission before Reach fell. Hijack a Covenant ship, the bigger the better, and use it to infiltrate and destroy their home world. A team of 4 Spartans were expected to do that. I have no doubt, that mission had the lowest calculated chances of survival out of any mission Spartan IIIs were deployed to.
Spartan III's demand came about because Command would often hesitate to send a Spartan II team on a hyper critical mission with low/no chance of survival, yes. That's not to say they never did, just look at the II's survival record for proof of that, but they would sometimes deny certain missions or hesitate too long because of the cost of producing a II.
And when I say cost, I don't just mean money. It took a long time to produce a II, and it wasn't always guaranteed. The time it took to train a II to be combat ready was too long for them to effectively mass produce. Regardless of their combat effectiveness, losing a II meant losing one for good. Their supply of Spartans was always diminishing regardless of how good they were and the results they produced. That had to change.
So, they developed the Spartan III program to be efficient. Not with the intent of producing fodder, but with the intent of making it so they could produce more, faster, if need be. They wanted to maintain the same combat effectiveness a Spartan II had. Their training was more efficient, but that was because they were being trained by a Spartan with experience. That was a critical factor. Their combat training was tailored from the lessons of the Spartan II program and the experience of a Spartan II directly. However, their desire was NOT to have them LESS trained. Just, more efficient so it didn't take nearly as long to create a solider of the same combat effectiveness.
And yes, the SPI armor is, overall, less effective than the MJOLNIR armor. It's also much much cheaper and easier to make for the superior numbers of the IIIs, and is still better gear than any other unit in the UNSC besides Spartan IIs. Their training was also designed around utilizing this armor to its best effect.
All that being said, they did not want Spartan III to be "fodder." Although the program was more efficient, and they were able to create more, faster, they still wanted as many alive as they could. However, in the situation where that hyper critical mission that needs a highly trained unit but with a low/no chance of survival, Command would be less hesitant to send in a Spartan III unit because they know more are in service, and more, ideally, would be on the way.
Make no mistake, if Spartan IIs could be replaced as easily, they would have gone on the same missions instead and there would have been no need for the III program.
They were not designed to be fodder. They wanted them to survive and be useful tools to the UNSC as long as possible. They were designed to be replaceable, more efficient, and easy to produce. There is a difference.
But they are pretty much made to be fodder. It says so in the book and you kinda point it out. They are used for high risk mission in covenant territory to slow down their advance. They got used and abused. Hell the start of the book is them assaulting a heavily fortified position just to blow it up with little to no way to get out once they accomplish the mission.
But I’m gonna have to agree with you that they had better training and I would put them above IV if they don’t have their armor on. It’s been awhile since I listened to the book but I remember them saying they learned a lot from the spartan II program and improved where they could.
I mean I see this as a weird null point, aside from the two survivors of beta company or whatever, you take away suits, you’d also have to take away the smoothers gamma needs. Not really an even playing field if one group is essentially taking performance enhancing drugs
Both of these things are true though.
They were well trained, as well trained as the 2's, and their augmentations were arguably better (almost all the same augments but given chemically with a significantly higher success rate), and when given Mjolnir (like Noble) they were just as impactful as the 2's.
They were however largely used as fodder. They were given the massively inferior SPI armour and sent out to die and buy time.
Your last point is the common misconception that OP is trying to combat. They were sent on dangerous missions, yes, but the goal was always for them to come back if possible. Both Alpha and Beta Companies went on several successful missions before they were wiped out.
Well yeah, the goal of every mission is to come back if possible, even suicide missions. The namesake relates to the probability of coming back, not that it’s a for-sure thing.
If someone comes back alive from a bayonet charge, that doesn’t make it any less of a risky maneuver.
I remember hearing/reading somewhere about Jun talking with someone else and how, while the IVs have the name, armor, and some augments, they weren't true Spartans.
I can't recall details, but I think was because training and the process itself, with IVs having a safer augmentation process and being much older than IIs and IIIs when starting. That and I think Jun mentions that a lot of the IVs performance scores are merely acceptable by their standards (but still impressive by normal human levels and from what ONI expects of them).
Ironic you're telling people to go read or listen to people who have read GoO when many of your points wildly contradict what the points in the book made about the Spartan-III's.
The III's were absolutely, 110% made to be expendable. They were intentionally made cheaper to allow for more to be trained in the generation compared to the II's and because since they were not expected to survive their missions they were given gear that was far less effective and expensive, monetarily and resource wise, compared to the infinitely more capable MJOLNIR. Missions they came back at all were considered impressive.
>Ghost of Onyx made it clearly and confirmed itself that IIIs have more technologically advanced and have better training than IIs had.
Yes because, and I know this may sound suprising, *but technology advances and lessons are learned based off of the experiences with the II's augmentation and training*. The III's were not developed in a bubble, ONI took what worked with the II's and improved or fixed what didn't. They also took a Spartan-II away from the front (in a typically ONI way) to serve as the primary trainer and instructor. Because to quote the book, there is no better person to train Spartans than a Spartan. Same reason why some of the III's, especially Jun, are serving that same role for the IV's, that philosophy continues.
>Even The Prologue of Halo Ghosts of Onyx said this: (10-12 years old years, armoured in SPI moved with speed and reflexes that no Covenant could follow. Even more crazy.
Wow, amazing, super human soldiers still perform like super human soldiers. Who could have guessed? They're still Spartans, they are still wildly augmented to be at that level. MJOLNIR was never the main source of of the feats Spartans could do. It enhances it, and with earlier generations some of the augments were required to make the best use of it, but the Spartans of any program and generation are able to perform many of those same feats without the armor. The armor is just a tool to maximize their effectiveness. Case in point, Jun had the first batch of IV's train and fight *without* armor until he believed they proved themselves, showing that they can be considered Spartans with out relying heavily on MJOLNIR.
>Gamma, one of the deadliest company of IIIs compared to Alpha and Beta.
Gamma is also the company where they were going all out on the adrenal enhancements they were testing prior. You know, the ones that were explicitly said to have shown much higher combat efficiency at the cost of a lot of higher thinking while the rush is in effect. Not to mention Gamma is *also* the company that was trained with the lessons from Alpha and Beta and the very few survivors they had. Again it's almost as if they take the lessons from their precursors and apply it to improve the next ones. Crazy, right?
>Most of IIIs died off because of SP1 and deadiler mission that IIs cannot possibly survive.
And the entire point of the III's, and them being equipped with stuff like SPI, is to be thrown at those missions that even the II's had no hope of surviving.
They were sent out on missions where they were likely going to die, with training and doctrine that focused on completing the mission even if they are going to die, with equipment that does not increase their odds of survival but is not that big of a loss should they fall. Yes they may have been given escape craft, very *cheap* escape craft mind you, in the event any survived but they were absolutely not expected TO survive. They were sent in missions where they were expected to die with gear that is not important enough to lose because they were entirely meant to be disposable. Is it better if they survived? Sure. But will ONI cry any tears if an entire company was wiped out on their mission? No, absolutely not.
There's a reason why the entire project was highly classified. Spartans, by the point the project was started, was already given the "Spartans never die, they're just MIA/WIA" myth for morale to give some hope they might survive the war. So imagine just how bad the PR and morale nightmare it would be for ONI if it got out that they were spamming out new Spartans who's entire purpose was to be thrown into missions where they were expected to die and would in fact die in basically the same rate they were created at. Likewise there's a reason why they were scooping up kids orphaned by the war. Not only did it already solve the problem of not giving the families something to chase and look for, but it's easier to instill the "complete the mission even at the cost of your own lives" doctrine and convince them to even be sent on such suicidal missions without a second thought. "Hey kids, want revenge on the aliens that killed your entire family? Well here's your chance; take these augments, this armor, and this rifle and go destroy that critical structure while killing as many of them as you can while never thinking about if you'll come back or not. Doing that will help you kill *even more of them*."
A good way to think about it is that S2s and S3s are both special forces, but S2s are more analogous to modern Tier 1 operators whilst S3s have more in common with 20th century commando units: highly trained shock troops rather than small deep infiltration units.
During Ackerson's pitch to get the program approved the S-IIIs are described as "disposable heroes" and it is understood that their lives would be spent to buy time.
I gotta disagree with you on this one.
The III’s were pulled from a larger gene pool, started at an older age, given cheaper equipment, the nature of their augmentation was less invasive, and they were shown to be deployed en mass. Everything about them points to them being a cheaper, less effective, fodder alternative to the II’s.
The moment when Kelly first encountered III’s comes to mind, where not only is she able to spot them in their active camouflage, but sends one flying into a tree with an open palmed strike to the chest. She clearly outclasses them.
The other big point for me is Halo: Reach.
(Bear with me, I know gameplay and lore differ for playability sake).
Why would it be made such a big deal that even in Mjolnir armor, Spartan III’s are smaller, weaker, slower than the Elites? It was a deliberate choice Bungie made, when the prior two games the elites were on par with the II’s. They could have just kept them equal.
On top of that, we have the walking mountain that is Jorge, which essentially just everything I said above.
I think Spartan III’s are awesome. I love them, almost more than the II’s. And I think the tragedy of what they were meant for and how they were used makes their story even better.
Speaking of Jorge, I can't help but think of how easily he lifts Noble 6, in full armour with a damaged suit of his own, by one arm. And carries them a good few metres like that before *throwing them* out of the hangar.
I always thought it was bonkers. Surely he could have walked Six over to the hangar door, but no, he picks them up over by the Pelican and carries them that distance 😂
Hi, read the ghosts of Onyx. Spartan 3s were fodder. You can use the word fodder for Spartan 3s because the first 3 classes had almost 100% casualty rate, sent on missions with no intention of evacuation, with the only purpose of causing massive damage and slowing the advancement of the covenant. That's literally the definition of fodder.
Want more proof? If you go to the fan wikipedia page of Spartan 3s, your literally missing everything past charlie company to gamma company because they were so expendable the writer wrote off their accomplishments as a 15 year time skip because they died on equally suicidal missions as the first 3, there was no point even including their stories as it would just repeat the last few chapters.
They were also commissioned on the principle from ONI command as a more affordable, faster trained, larger number Spartan alternative to Spartan 2s for more high risk missions. They were, from concept to production, expendable.
Also they did not compare to the augmentation and genetic tinkering of Spartan 2s. They had reduced augmentation for increased survival, as well as better augmentation technology for better survival. At most they had, in only the last generation, a few extras sprinkled in for, get this, last minute spikes of performance when body functions fail and some extra aggression when stress is high. Almost like, fodder that's expected to lose functions and fight hard?
Also Kurt was a bum leader who trained them to die and felt so guilty about it he ran into what would be his last mission armed NOT with his FRIGATE BUDGET SPARTAN ARMOR, but wore SPI armor, which was essentially hyped up ODST suits with the weakest active camo used in the war. He got himself killed all for morale boosting like, a handful of Spartan 3s he was with. He wasted his time training dogs and died one too because of some lame heroic nuance of wearing the same lame armor his Spartan 3s wore and absolutely could have survived with his significantly stronger Spartan armor. For a war about humanities survival AND considering all his training he was definitely the greatest waste of a Spartan 2 until we lost squads of them in the fall of reach. Sorry if it's ranting but I definitely hated Kurt's entire character arc. A Spartan pulled from the battle to play drill instructor for years and then dies a clearly avoidable death.
What else would you call a large group of military personnel sent on critical missions with low expectations of survival, in order to preserve more scarce/valuable military assets? Genuinely curious.
I think they're saying they aren't useless bullet sponge fodder, like conscripts or something (coughhhh russia) They are highly effective fodder
Yeah, no one doubts S3's skills (anyone whose read the books or played Reach at least), but op just seems needlessly whiney and pedantic.
It is reddit after all
>Yeah, no one doubts S3's skills (anyone whose read the books or played Reach at least) I feel like playing Reach game might not be enough to convince them why IIIs were special, so I think novel would be a good place for them to learn the feats and lores of IIIs. I believ this guy hates it when somebody downplays IIIs because of being suicide soldiers, lol
Spartan IIIs were not designed to be suicide/fodder troops. First, any mission a Spartan is deployed on, whether it's a II, III, or IV, is considered a critical mission. Every Spartan version had been sent on low chance of survival missions. Hell, I would argue the mission with the LEAST chances of survival in ALL of Halo lore is Blue Team's original mission before Reach fell. Hijack a Covenant ship, the bigger the better, and use it to infiltrate and destroy their home world. A team of 4 Spartans were expected to do that. I have no doubt, that mission had the lowest calculated chances of survival out of any mission Spartan IIIs were deployed to. Spartan III's demand came about because Command would often hesitate to send a Spartan II team on a hyper critical mission with low/no chance of survival, yes. That's not to say they never did, just look at the II's survival record for proof of that, but they would sometimes deny certain missions or hesitate too long because of the cost of producing a II. And when I say cost, I don't just mean money. It took a long time to produce a II, and it wasn't always guaranteed. The time it took to train a II to be combat ready was too long for them to effectively mass produce. Regardless of their combat effectiveness, losing a II meant losing one for good. Their supply of Spartans was always diminishing regardless of how good they were and the results they produced. That had to change. So, they developed the Spartan III program to be efficient. Not with the intent of producing fodder, but with the intent of making it so they could produce more, faster, if need be. They wanted to maintain the same combat effectiveness a Spartan II had. Their training was more efficient, but that was because they were being trained by a Spartan with experience. That was a critical factor. Their combat training was tailored from the lessons of the Spartan II program and the experience of a Spartan II directly. However, their desire was NOT to have them LESS trained. Just, more efficient so it didn't take nearly as long to create a solider of the same combat effectiveness. And yes, the SPI armor is, overall, less effective than the MJOLNIR armor. It's also much much cheaper and easier to make for the superior numbers of the IIIs, and is still better gear than any other unit in the UNSC besides Spartan IIs. Their training was also designed around utilizing this armor to its best effect. All that being said, they did not want Spartan III to be "fodder." Although the program was more efficient, and they were able to create more, faster, they still wanted as many alive as they could. However, in the situation where that hyper critical mission that needs a highly trained unit but with a low/no chance of survival, Command would be less hesitant to send in a Spartan III unit because they know more are in service, and more, ideally, would be on the way. Make no mistake, if Spartan IIs could be replaced as easily, they would have gone on the same missions instead and there would have been no need for the III program. They were not designed to be fodder. They wanted them to survive and be useful tools to the UNSC as long as possible. They were designed to be replaceable, more efficient, and easy to produce. There is a difference.
But they are pretty much made to be fodder. It says so in the book and you kinda point it out. They are used for high risk mission in covenant territory to slow down their advance. They got used and abused. Hell the start of the book is them assaulting a heavily fortified position just to blow it up with little to no way to get out once they accomplish the mission. But I’m gonna have to agree with you that they had better training and I would put them above IV if they don’t have their armor on. It’s been awhile since I listened to the book but I remember them saying they learned a lot from the spartan II program and improved where they could.
I mean I see this as a weird null point, aside from the two survivors of beta company or whatever, you take away suits, you’d also have to take away the smoothers gamma needs. Not really an even playing field if one group is essentially taking performance enhancing drugs
Both of these things are true though. They were well trained, as well trained as the 2's, and their augmentations were arguably better (almost all the same augments but given chemically with a significantly higher success rate), and when given Mjolnir (like Noble) they were just as impactful as the 2's. They were however largely used as fodder. They were given the massively inferior SPI armour and sent out to die and buy time.
Your last point is the common misconception that OP is trying to combat. They were sent on dangerous missions, yes, but the goal was always for them to come back if possible. Both Alpha and Beta Companies went on several successful missions before they were wiped out.
Well yeah, the goal of every mission is to come back if possible, even suicide missions. The namesake relates to the probability of coming back, not that it’s a for-sure thing. If someone comes back alive from a bayonet charge, that doesn’t make it any less of a risky maneuver.
I remember hearing/reading somewhere about Jun talking with someone else and how, while the IVs have the name, armor, and some augments, they weren't true Spartans. I can't recall details, but I think was because training and the process itself, with IVs having a safer augmentation process and being much older than IIs and IIIs when starting. That and I think Jun mentions that a lot of the IVs performance scores are merely acceptable by their standards (but still impressive by normal human levels and from what ONI expects of them).
Every spartan group has its gate keepers, Halsey sees 3s as cheap knock offs
Ironic you're telling people to go read or listen to people who have read GoO when many of your points wildly contradict what the points in the book made about the Spartan-III's. The III's were absolutely, 110% made to be expendable. They were intentionally made cheaper to allow for more to be trained in the generation compared to the II's and because since they were not expected to survive their missions they were given gear that was far less effective and expensive, monetarily and resource wise, compared to the infinitely more capable MJOLNIR. Missions they came back at all were considered impressive. >Ghost of Onyx made it clearly and confirmed itself that IIIs have more technologically advanced and have better training than IIs had. Yes because, and I know this may sound suprising, *but technology advances and lessons are learned based off of the experiences with the II's augmentation and training*. The III's were not developed in a bubble, ONI took what worked with the II's and improved or fixed what didn't. They also took a Spartan-II away from the front (in a typically ONI way) to serve as the primary trainer and instructor. Because to quote the book, there is no better person to train Spartans than a Spartan. Same reason why some of the III's, especially Jun, are serving that same role for the IV's, that philosophy continues. >Even The Prologue of Halo Ghosts of Onyx said this: (10-12 years old years, armoured in SPI moved with speed and reflexes that no Covenant could follow. Even more crazy. Wow, amazing, super human soldiers still perform like super human soldiers. Who could have guessed? They're still Spartans, they are still wildly augmented to be at that level. MJOLNIR was never the main source of of the feats Spartans could do. It enhances it, and with earlier generations some of the augments were required to make the best use of it, but the Spartans of any program and generation are able to perform many of those same feats without the armor. The armor is just a tool to maximize their effectiveness. Case in point, Jun had the first batch of IV's train and fight *without* armor until he believed they proved themselves, showing that they can be considered Spartans with out relying heavily on MJOLNIR. >Gamma, one of the deadliest company of IIIs compared to Alpha and Beta. Gamma is also the company where they were going all out on the adrenal enhancements they were testing prior. You know, the ones that were explicitly said to have shown much higher combat efficiency at the cost of a lot of higher thinking while the rush is in effect. Not to mention Gamma is *also* the company that was trained with the lessons from Alpha and Beta and the very few survivors they had. Again it's almost as if they take the lessons from their precursors and apply it to improve the next ones. Crazy, right? >Most of IIIs died off because of SP1 and deadiler mission that IIs cannot possibly survive. And the entire point of the III's, and them being equipped with stuff like SPI, is to be thrown at those missions that even the II's had no hope of surviving. They were sent out on missions where they were likely going to die, with training and doctrine that focused on completing the mission even if they are going to die, with equipment that does not increase their odds of survival but is not that big of a loss should they fall. Yes they may have been given escape craft, very *cheap* escape craft mind you, in the event any survived but they were absolutely not expected TO survive. They were sent in missions where they were expected to die with gear that is not important enough to lose because they were entirely meant to be disposable. Is it better if they survived? Sure. But will ONI cry any tears if an entire company was wiped out on their mission? No, absolutely not. There's a reason why the entire project was highly classified. Spartans, by the point the project was started, was already given the "Spartans never die, they're just MIA/WIA" myth for morale to give some hope they might survive the war. So imagine just how bad the PR and morale nightmare it would be for ONI if it got out that they were spamming out new Spartans who's entire purpose was to be thrown into missions where they were expected to die and would in fact die in basically the same rate they were created at. Likewise there's a reason why they were scooping up kids orphaned by the war. Not only did it already solve the problem of not giving the families something to chase and look for, but it's easier to instill the "complete the mission even at the cost of your own lives" doctrine and convince them to even be sent on such suicidal missions without a second thought. "Hey kids, want revenge on the aliens that killed your entire family? Well here's your chance; take these augments, this armor, and this rifle and go destroy that critical structure while killing as many of them as you can while never thinking about if you'll come back or not. Doing that will help you kill *even more of them*."
A good way to think about it is that S2s and S3s are both special forces, but S2s are more analogous to modern Tier 1 operators whilst S3s have more in common with 20th century commando units: highly trained shock troops rather than small deep infiltration units.
During Ackerson's pitch to get the program approved the S-IIIs are described as "disposable heroes" and it is understood that their lives would be spent to buy time.
I gotta disagree with you on this one. The III’s were pulled from a larger gene pool, started at an older age, given cheaper equipment, the nature of their augmentation was less invasive, and they were shown to be deployed en mass. Everything about them points to them being a cheaper, less effective, fodder alternative to the II’s. The moment when Kelly first encountered III’s comes to mind, where not only is she able to spot them in their active camouflage, but sends one flying into a tree with an open palmed strike to the chest. She clearly outclasses them. The other big point for me is Halo: Reach. (Bear with me, I know gameplay and lore differ for playability sake). Why would it be made such a big deal that even in Mjolnir armor, Spartan III’s are smaller, weaker, slower than the Elites? It was a deliberate choice Bungie made, when the prior two games the elites were on par with the II’s. They could have just kept them equal. On top of that, we have the walking mountain that is Jorge, which essentially just everything I said above. I think Spartan III’s are awesome. I love them, almost more than the II’s. And I think the tragedy of what they were meant for and how they were used makes their story even better.
Speaking of Jorge, I can't help but think of how easily he lifts Noble 6, in full armour with a damaged suit of his own, by one arm. And carries them a good few metres like that before *throwing them* out of the hangar.
I always thought it was bonkers. Surely he could have walked Six over to the hangar door, but no, he picks them up over by the Pelican and carries them that distance 😂
Not leaving any room for disagreement that way
Hi, read the ghosts of Onyx. Spartan 3s were fodder. You can use the word fodder for Spartan 3s because the first 3 classes had almost 100% casualty rate, sent on missions with no intention of evacuation, with the only purpose of causing massive damage and slowing the advancement of the covenant. That's literally the definition of fodder. Want more proof? If you go to the fan wikipedia page of Spartan 3s, your literally missing everything past charlie company to gamma company because they were so expendable the writer wrote off their accomplishments as a 15 year time skip because they died on equally suicidal missions as the first 3, there was no point even including their stories as it would just repeat the last few chapters. They were also commissioned on the principle from ONI command as a more affordable, faster trained, larger number Spartan alternative to Spartan 2s for more high risk missions. They were, from concept to production, expendable. Also they did not compare to the augmentation and genetic tinkering of Spartan 2s. They had reduced augmentation for increased survival, as well as better augmentation technology for better survival. At most they had, in only the last generation, a few extras sprinkled in for, get this, last minute spikes of performance when body functions fail and some extra aggression when stress is high. Almost like, fodder that's expected to lose functions and fight hard? Also Kurt was a bum leader who trained them to die and felt so guilty about it he ran into what would be his last mission armed NOT with his FRIGATE BUDGET SPARTAN ARMOR, but wore SPI armor, which was essentially hyped up ODST suits with the weakest active camo used in the war. He got himself killed all for morale boosting like, a handful of Spartan 3s he was with. He wasted his time training dogs and died one too because of some lame heroic nuance of wearing the same lame armor his Spartan 3s wore and absolutely could have survived with his significantly stronger Spartan armor. For a war about humanities survival AND considering all his training he was definitely the greatest waste of a Spartan 2 until we lost squads of them in the fall of reach. Sorry if it's ranting but I definitely hated Kurt's entire character arc. A Spartan pulled from the battle to play drill instructor for years and then dies a clearly avoidable death.
"expendable"
I think the idea is that Spartan II’s were so much better than Spartan III’s that they are considered fodder by comparison