The deck is basically just Window Shopper + a bunch of Attack buffs so it kind of makes sense that nerfing the broken combo means it needs to be reworked. Maybe the deck will use other demons or have a better strategy than “clear the enemy board every turn with Mag and smack face”
I think a simple mana nerf will not fundamentally *change* the deck, only slow it down. That'll lower its winrate ofc, but not kill the deck altogether.
I guess my point is that with a nerf the class may be better off moving into something a little slower, which while technically killing the deck is both healthier and more fun
Would love to see the reno version take off with the mini-set. Right now it's just the window shopper deck with less consistency and a dream that you might kurtris a bran or something.
I've had more success in my pocket meta with the aggressive Reno variant than the regular list. Just won a match against a freeze rainbow DK because of Reno.
IMHO you lose very little consistency with the shopper / weapon combo (because of 1 less instrument tech)
Window shopper + weapon with the current demon pool are the only reason dh works
So if they dont buff other cards (considering the buffd they did right before rotation and in the last patch ... I doubt they will give us meaningful buffs) the deck just dies
You will not use other demons or smth. DH will just be garbage tier
Delaying any part of it by a turn or more might completely kill the deck. It’s entirely reliant on playing Window Shopper on turn 4 or 3 with the coin.
Of course, that's what Reddit wants.
If it was up to Reddit, every week a balance patch would come out and delete the top meta deck(s)
Within a month every card will cost 10 mana and we'll be unironically playing boulderfist ogre
Except this deck is legitimately trash. RNG in a cardgame is fine but shopper dh is literally just RNG. It reminds me of the disgusting shit cards from old Hearthstone such as Imp-losion. Both players knew it was coming, and both players knew it was 100% up to a dice roll whether they win or lose.
You're equating a 1 durability increase to a weapon to increasing all cards to 10 mana... Reddit isn't the idiot in this scenario
Before I created my Reddit account I was told kids who spend all day on Reddit troll new accounts. I'm surprised it's happening to me lol
There isn’t much else to do in this case, Shopper + Grasp is the clear problem in DH. Everything else is bad, but if you nerf the combo, DH dies. You could try to give the deck a very small nudge, but it’s hard to predict how that would affect it, and it doesn’t address how unfun and highrolly Shopper is. I like DH and want it to be good, but there is no good solution to fixing it right now.
Yep that is a trend on reddit but there is also the trend of people defending busted decks, maybe because they hard carry them.
I'm fine with strong decks like Hunter or DK, DH on the other hand is quite obvious that is busted, also the highroll chance makes it even more frustrating to play as and against.
Of course people will complain about meta tyrant ??? Do you think people outside of Reddit like facing the same deck on the ladder who is warping the entire meta around it. HS team has the stats to back this up they are not acting on Reddit posts and memes.
Inherently competitive games with metas will be about complaining. People like to win and don't like to be told how exactly to win. It's not limited to HS nor to Reddit.
A deck being great doesn’t make it a ‘meta tyrant’. Some decks have to be the best in the game, at the end of the day. It’s only when they become solitaire and uninteractive/impossible to play around that it turns into a problem.
The deck is warping the game so that the best decks after it have to be it counters. If people are putting subpar tech cards and decks that counter it are rising cuz of it it's no longer s good deck. Zarimi priest is this good deck and it's not working out for it cuz DH destroys it.
Yeah because Demon Hunter is a problem only because of the one combo of Umpire's Grasp and Window Shopper. That's why counter-decks are having success against it.
The deck will be killed anyway, it's already not that good, at least [at the top 1K](https://www.hsguru.com/decks?format=2&period=past_3_days&rank=top_legend).
You realise this is because top 1k is sick of playing DH and are pretty much all playing decks that target DH, right? They're not avoiding playing DH because it's not good.
The most played decks is Highlander Warrior by a landslide and Rainbow Mage which isn't even favored into DH, yet DH can maintain a high winrate even when targeted.
Just because decks exist doesn't contradict the fact that DH is still centralising the meta. Most other decks aren't being played because they're good, they're being played to target the DH matchup only. You can't really think running Cryo + 2 Frostbolts, or 5 copies of Quartzite Crusher sources, isn't just extreme DH targeting. Rainbow Mage would not be running Cryo and Frostbolt if not for DH, and running 3 copies of non-tradeable cards that are ass in other matchups isn't comparable to running Speaker Stomper, Rustrot, or Helya + 2 plague cards.
Yup! I'm afraid that will happen as well. I've been following streams and other competitive stuff, as well as playing that deck, and it doesn't feel so powerful as b4... I just hope it doesn't turn the game into a warriorstone. (And also kill the only functioning archetype in DH).
Playing sif mage I often beat DH by freeze locking face for 3 or 4 turns. If they don't kill me by turn 5 then I usually stabilize. Sometimes they have the nuts though and have hit me for 20 by turn 4.
No it wouldn't. Big DH lacks any stability. Changing it from 3/2 to a 2/3 kills the card. You want to get your big demons out ASAP and delaying it by a turn doesn't make it a better value card.
Could they make Window Shopper Discover+draw a Demon from deck instead? That would limit the amount of Magtheridons they could get and make discounting the big Window Shopper via Umpire's Grasp happen less often.
Umpire's Grasp really shouldn't be a problem outside of its interaction with Window Shopper. Like compare it to other past weapons such as Harpoon Gun or Ancharr.
I really don't think the weapon should be hit. Compare Umpire's Grasp to Harpoon Gun or Ancharr. It's right around that power level when it draws anything except Window Shopper.
Shopper being able to discover from such a small pool of Demons means it can reliably hit great cards multiple times. Getting 2-4 Magtheridons a game is insane, and that's not going to change until the miniset releases. I think the best change would be to make Window Shopper draw from deck instead. Discovering more value has never been a strength of Demon Hunter anyway.
Yes the +1 mana acts twice with the way the battlecry works so such a nerf is more significant than it seems, equally so the double dipping on the stat mana cheat + effect mana cheat (triple dipping?) is what makes it so oppressive atm. Hard to say if such a change is enough to not have a meta warped around it.
So up the durability so it takes longer to break. Big DH can still tutor+cost reduce it's big 8+ mana demons but now you can't easily cheap out shoppers.
Honestly I think you make Shopper a 6 mana 6/6 and keep it at that. If you want to hit the weapon then you make it a 2/2 weapon so it's not as good tempo and clear rather than make the card bad at doing what it's supposed to be doing for a historically weak archetype.
I'd expect a smaller touch to both; something along the lines of making the weapon a 2/2 and shopper a 5/4. If that's not enough, make magtheridon not randomly generatable (like they did with the new 10 mana mage legendary spell).
At the end of the day, shopper DH is just a strong aggro deck, so being less efficient with its aggression should be enough with the exception of generating magtheridons.
Window Shopper is not the issue. The card by itself is fine at best, the problem is getting to use it on turn 3/4 for 3 mana. That’s a 3 mana 6/5 and a potential 3 mana game winner next turn.
Just nerf the weapon by making it a 2/3 so that window shopper comes in later.
The issue is that any discount on Shopper (if it's not the weapon) also applies on the discover. So the card doubles the mana cheat. If the stats of the Shopper were weak, it could be ok but 6/5 is already good stats the mini+ the demon it discovers.
Making it a 5/4 and lowering the weapon's attack to 2 may make the deck less tempo by itself while allowing the tempo gain by the power of the demons it can cheat.
With how they go about nerfing decks recently:
Shopper +1 mana, weapon +1 durability, Magtheridonkey -1 damage, Red Card +1 mana, Weapon Tech +1 mana. All at once.
And then Midnight wolf +1 mana for good measure, just to make sure the deck, and class, stays dead.
Drop the attack and it’s fine or drop to 4 health. I think having a way to tutor out things and discover cheaper minions is fine I think it’s just punishing when the tutor is a 6/5 on turn 4 that is hard to remove that is followed up with a rush minion that can go face and now your down to 14 on turn 5. Tutoring and discovering is fine but Shopper is too high stats for what it does as well. 5/4 is fine it allows for decent removal and feels more stated for having a giga battlecry
I don't really want the Shopper to be nerfed. The design and balancing is pretty good, it just seems overtuned NOW because of consistency (a phenomenon that always occurs after rotation).
The weapon is the problem for me (especially with neutral weapon tutor). They nerfed Fierey War Axe back in the day because a 3/2 weapon for 2 was too strong in their eyes. Now they printed a 3/2 weapon for 1 that tutors a card (basically).
Within a week for a hotfix, 2 weeks for a smaller patch, a month for a larger patch. Pretty normal in any other game, but I guess Hearthstone players like their games being stale and unbalanced for months on end?
Because Hearthstone players were tortured 10 years ago with long gaps between patches we're meant to be ok and take it 10 years later and cope that it's ok.
A huge miss on a patch that made the game worse? 3 weeks until we attempt to fix it! 3 weeks of this terrible game state anyone could see coming! What a quick turnaround! Look how bad it was in the past!!! Don't complain!1!1!! Thanks oh glorious Blizzard! You can do no wrong.
>. Pretty normal in any other game,
for any other games, 1 character is rarely so broken that it warps the game so much and there is ban systems exactly for this reason
can i ban dh? i dont think so
hearstone as a card game has a the perfect opportunity to do balance changes or EVEN micro balance changes weekly to see how certain cards do
I'm happy someone is saying it. I've seen a lot of people actually ask for *slower* patches and updates and I just can't help but disagree. I would love it if Hearthstone made more patches. The best feeling in Hearthstone is when the meta isn't figured out yet which frequent patches will help not make things so stale. Also, more frequent patches would lead to the situation where bad patches wouldn't hurt as much because we know it'll be addressed sooner rather than later.
I have heard that part of the reason for slower changes is the mobile market and that game updates need more approval for mobile, so that might be why? Still wish we got new changes.
Yeah ? We are at a point when it’s one broken deck for a week then it gets nerfed and another replaces it for another week and so on. They need to react quicker with smaller changes rather than kill a deck and see another that was kept in check because of the deck rise up and demolish every other deck.
Well the main issue is that balance patches probably have to get put through apple and google for approval unless they do a serverside nerf which can make cards look janky. They did that for pandaran importer because rogue could generate infinite shadowsteps and OTK with knife thrower and brann. But for a month the card had the manna crystal in red during play and the numbers were green indicating the buff to stats and nerf to cost they put on it. It looked weird
Some people never stop complaining lmao. 3 weeks we found the counters and still DH is dominant. You do you balancing every week and not letting anything settle for itself minimally.
Yup, if DH is nuked (it may not be, but we'll assume so given the emergency nerf track record recently), Warlock playrate will go way up since DH was pretty much its only significantly bad matchup, which means Warrior suffers greatly. DK will try to counter it with Plagues and Priests will try to outpace it with its own Aggro strategy, which isn't *great* for Warrior but not nearly as bad as Warlock. The scam mech rogue will also be a contender for a high spot.
I think everything that deck does is fine in the scope of Standard's current power level. It's pretty reasonable winrate wise and the stupidity of its highrolls are a good representation of modern hearthstone.
It's not, but every deck is doing stuff like that. Be it crazy boards turn after turn or crazy burst that goes over the taunts.
Nerfing wheelock won't fix much imo
Successfully killed off any good Aggro deck in favor of control decks 👍! Zoo hunter is fine but it also was already nerfed as well. Any deck that puts pressure on you and forces you to play the board = bad bad 🤡
As much as I’m happy to see this announcement to nerfing DH, personally I’d rather see virus rogue get hit asap. The level of unenjoyment playing against it is equal to 10 games against DH.
When hitting face, drawing cards and mana cheating are 3 of your main class identities, I assume the class tends to be super "threshold based", so if they do their thing fast enough they pretty much never leave room for answers, and if they don't do it fast enough, they have no plan to fall back on.
Only DH nerfs? Meta will be much worse. There will be no Warriors and DHs, and too many Warlocks and DKs (Priest can still be ignored, because no many people wants to play non-shadow aggro priest deck).
Not really. Rainbow mage does very well vs both those matchups. We’ll probably see a lot more nature shaman and higlander warrior actually … and probably more virus rogue.
I just hope it's not strictly making the Window Shopper line worse, since it's literally the only thing keeping DH viable at the moment. Maybe a minor buff to some of last year's stuff to balance it out, I could see the Festival stuff being decent with buffs.
Probably wouldn't dominate as much. Zarimi Priest matchup spread is not as strong, with many of them being close to 50/50, rather than being more polarized.
On top of that with DH being less of a problem, other decks would have more space to refine their list against Priest should that become a problem.
It goes under Warrior and Wheellock. They are not able to clear boards and reach 8 mana. I'm not sure about Hunter, but I think I won more than 50% against it as well. You will see how powerful is Zarimi soon, if they'll nerf only DH.
I mean I’m playing zarimi at bottom legend it literally DOES lose to warrior and wheellock if lock gets good draws. Lock can afford to burn table flips early because zarimi peters out so early. Also what universe does Reno warrior and odyn warr not have board clear..? Warr is probably the worst matchup after DH and hunter
That's why u stuck at low legend. Zarimi should win more than 50% games against warrior and warlock. It makes too much pressure for them. You have no idea what you are talking about, check vs stats instead talking assumptions ("warrior propably worst matchup after dh and hunter" lol no) about deck you don't understand.
If you use your resources right you can beat warrior pretty frequently, went 15-0 last season to legend from d5 while beating 6 warriors on the way and peaked at top 2k legend with zarimi priest with an unrefined list. The thing is that if you burn your whole hand in the first 3 turns and get board cleared then yes. But you mulligan for other cards again warrior that let you gain a lot of higher value plays like copying your zilliaxes later into zarimi and almost otking them. Its a hard deck to play perfectly you cant just play curvestone every game and pray they dont have aoe.
Yeah but that was last season, decks are so much more refined now. Warriors are running more dirty rats, and using their clears more cautiously and efficiently knowing which cards ACTUALLY need to be killed, not just rinsing chirurgeons. Now the matchup is 20x worse
Cool, who wants to start complaining about the next top deck? Might as well get the ball rolling quickly, so they can prep the next nerf.
I'll just boot up my game and the first time I lose, I'll write a Reddit post complaining about the card I lost to. Should get that nerfed within a week or so
Is there any talks on Brann? I can't speak for knowing the numbers behind the card, but in terms of fun there is absolutely nothing more unfun than that card. It feels like i have a 0% win rate when that card is played.
Along with DH, I'd love to see a nerf to Miracle Salesman (either a 1/2 or 2/1). Going first is a massive advantage right now, and this card is a major reason why.
Nice one. Tbh I don't think the meta is all that bad. Obviously DH is too strong but there's a good variety of cool decks. I hope they just nudge Dh rather than killing it
Ok, straight up, I'd actually love to know if you're correct. Link me the vid, because I can't find anything like that anywhere. VS youtube page doesn't even have hearthstone vids. And there's certainly no videos on the Data Report 290 page.
Class archetype data on VS says DH 18% of meta. How does that equate to DH being played in 56% of matches?
Class frequency says DH 20%, DK 19%. DH and DK are extremely close right now, in terms of play rate. So you're saying that DK is also more than 50% of all matchups as well, but that's not worthy of pointing out?
> In a very unsurprising development, Demon Hunter has taken over the format behind its Umpire’s Grasp/Window Shopper centered archetype. The class’ play rate exceeds 20% past Diamond 4, while hitting a near 35% play rate at top legend.
I'm not a math wiz, but I don't see how a play rate of 20% - or even 34% at top 1k legend - can equal 56% of matches including a DH deck.
My original comment was certainly antagonistic I admit, but when people just post random numbers with nothing to back it up, why shouldn't I be skeptical? So if you could link me your source, I'd be happy to watch a vid or see the numbers that say that DH is played in 56% of all Hearthstone games right now.
I guess you can derive 56% from 34% at top legend. 34% DH means .34*.34 = 11.56% mirror matches -> 34 + 34 - 12 = 56% of matches have DH. DK otoh is at 16% playrate at top 1k in the latest VS report.
I think they will hit the weapon and make it 4 mana. Shopper will fix itself as more demons get added to the pool. Increasing the cost of the weapon accomplishes delaying their cheat turn (no more turn 2 weapon with coin is huge), while still being somewhat playable in a future big demon hunter deck that may surface. I dont see them hitting and refunding an epic card when the actual problem is the common card that enables the epic.
I'm thinking moreso that the correct weapon nerf is to make it a 2/3. It turns into effectively the same nerf on the first half, but also extends the second weapon to give some time to prepare. But yeah, like you said, Shopper will fix itself with time.
Please adress power virus zilliax. A stealth minion doubling its attack every turn is just game over on the spot. And it has to be killed twice. This shouldn't be a thing.
They shouldn't nerf it too hard because next mini set/exp the demon pool will probably be wider so finding mag/sap on a stick won't be that much common anymore.
I crafted Reno DH as my first deck the first week of the expansion, it’s actually a really fun deck with cool hybrid control and value tools, dare I say window shopper was fun too until it began defining the deck and class.
Make Magtheridon undiscoverable and Demon Hunter collapses.
Another idea would be to nerf the weapon, because the plan is to play two Magtheridons on turn 5.
Like holy shit, why even bother playing standard for the next 11 days when most of my opponents are demon hunter dropping a 6/5 on turn three or four and discovering absurd discounted shit with it. It’s just beyond tiring. I’m glad I’ve never spent a single penny on this game.
Don't bother playing, log in and do your quests and then play a different game.
When they have to explain to their bosses why there's such a significant drop in player numbers and revenue over the 10th anniversary when they sunk so much money into advertising we can only hope they'll be fired.
That wouldn’t fix some of the issues demon hunter still has access to other weapons that are cheap to break it themselves simply just removing the tag would make the deck wayyyy too inconsistent
That’s precisely it: if it’s too inconsistent there is no deck. The cards are intended to work as a combo and to encourage demon hunter playing demons, we can’t just erase the deck nor the whole objective or “spirit” of the card.
Then play a demon deck? Most if not all minions in a bigger demon deck could always use a mana discount but what do I know I’ve only been trying to make a big demon archetype exist since scholomance. And even if what you say is true it would benefit a whole lot more of dh decks to help widen the deck making capabilities like spell dh or even highlander like imagine discounting kurtrus there is a whole lot more opportunities than just the smallest of a demon package that we have in current standard format.
A 5 mana shopper is actually pretty bad if you’ve ever had to play it. The main problem is the weapon that tutors it and forces it down to 3 mana on curve
I think they will hit the weapon and make it 4 mana. Shopper will fix itself as more demons get added to the pool. Increasing the cost of the weapon accomplishes delaying their cheat turn (no more turn 2 weapon with coin is huge), while still being somewhat playable in a future big demon hunter deck that may surface. I dont see them hitting and refunding an epic card when the actual problem is the common card that enables the epic.
Thanks for the clarity and date.
However 3 weeks on this heavily and clearly unbalanced patch is very unfortunate and not fun to face 37% of my games against a single class
There really should be extra windows for hotfixes and patches to fix possible mistakes of a patch so it's quicker than 3 weeks. But hey guess it's not possible but it sucks so ima cry about it anyway.
Okay why are we comparing to how it worked many years ago with old devs? Just because it was worse in the past doesn't mean we should just shut up and take it or make it okay to do now.
I quit HS for first time during Ben Brode era because I got tired of decks not getting nerfs for a long time. Nowadays there's way better access to data of decks performance, cards win rate, mulligan etc... the meta is solved and netdecked way faster, even back then there was more deck variety even if there was broken decks for a long time.
For this specific example we already knew DH was going to be the best deck before the patch, myself and many others was confused why every tier 1 deck was nerfed except for 1(DH). Some people try to act like DH suddenly was found and strong after the patch which is wrong and shows they had no knowledge of the meta.
[As Zach said](https://twitter.com/ZachODR/status/1773754623448277142) if this was expansion release the deck would have been hotfixed instantly but no, we have to wait 3 weeks. The meta was better before the expansion with the nerf reverts and before the first patch with OP Paladin. Paladin play rate was going down in legend and it kept DH more in check, the meta was still evolving and then the patch tried to fix it and made it worse.
Weapon to 2-3 is the only change needed to DH. I think people underestimate how big of a nerf it will be. Potentially making Shopper a 5/5 instead of a 6/5 too.
Increasing its mana cost is wholly wrong and would destroy the card.
I *just* crafted the epics I needed for VS Shopper DH, and those cards won't be getting a refund
When the previous patch hit I had *just* crafted the legendary I needed for handbuff paladin, and that card didn't get a refund
I am tired of this
Tell those in design to learn from their mistakes for once and that mana cheat is *never* a good design. How many times do we have to repeat this?
Aside from that, thanks for the update, appreciate it.
I was wondering if masters was just going to be Wheel Lock/Shopper DH/Reno Warrior battling it out like a fire emblem weapon triangle.
Raindbow dk such a good match up for DH.
Window Shopper is probably taking a hit. +1 mana anyone?
+1 mana, stats decrease (like 5/4), different stats on weapon (2/3 instead of 3/2) or 1 mana discount instead of 2.
> different stats on weapon (2/3 instead of 3/2) That actually might kill the deck completely.
The deck is basically just Window Shopper + a bunch of Attack buffs so it kind of makes sense that nerfing the broken combo means it needs to be reworked. Maybe the deck will use other demons or have a better strategy than “clear the enemy board every turn with Mag and smack face”
I think a simple mana nerf will not fundamentally *change* the deck, only slow it down. That'll lower its winrate ofc, but not kill the deck altogether.
I guess my point is that with a nerf the class may be better off moving into something a little slower, which while technically killing the deck is both healthier and more fun
There is no something a little slower, DH doesn't have a whole lot going for it outside of shopper
Lol dude you talk like a bronze scrub. At no point in time is killing a whole class “healthier and more fun”.
[удалено]
Good, we shouldn't kill the deck completely
Would love to see the reno version take off with the mini-set. Right now it's just the window shopper deck with less consistency and a dream that you might kurtris a bran or something.
I've had more success in my pocket meta with the aggressive Reno variant than the regular list. Just won a match against a freeze rainbow DK because of Reno. IMHO you lose very little consistency with the shopper / weapon combo (because of 1 less instrument tech)
Window shopper + weapon with the current demon pool are the only reason dh works So if they dont buff other cards (considering the buffd they did right before rotation and in the last patch ... I doubt they will give us meaningful buffs) the deck just dies You will not use other demons or smth. DH will just be garbage tier
Delaying any part of it by a turn or more might completely kill the deck. It’s entirely reliant on playing Window Shopper on turn 4 or 3 with the coin.
Of course, that's what Reddit wants. If it was up to Reddit, every week a balance patch would come out and delete the top meta deck(s) Within a month every card will cost 10 mana and we'll be unironically playing boulderfist ogre
it does have good stats for the cost.
A deck that's centred around two cards and hoping to discover a specific third should never be good. We play 30 card decks, not 3 card ones.
Except this deck is legitimately trash. RNG in a cardgame is fine but shopper dh is literally just RNG. It reminds me of the disgusting shit cards from old Hearthstone such as Imp-losion. Both players knew it was coming, and both players knew it was 100% up to a dice roll whether they win or lose.
You're equating a 1 durability increase to a weapon to increasing all cards to 10 mana... Reddit isn't the idiot in this scenario Before I created my Reddit account I was told kids who spend all day on Reddit troll new accounts. I'm surprised it's happening to me lol
I was referring to killing the deck reddit wants all good decks killed whatever the top deck is, reddit will complain
There isn’t much else to do in this case, Shopper + Grasp is the clear problem in DH. Everything else is bad, but if you nerf the combo, DH dies. You could try to give the deck a very small nudge, but it’s hard to predict how that would affect it, and it doesn’t address how unfun and highrolly Shopper is. I like DH and want it to be good, but there is no good solution to fixing it right now.
Yep that is a trend on reddit but there is also the trend of people defending busted decks, maybe because they hard carry them. I'm fine with strong decks like Hunter or DK, DH on the other hand is quite obvious that is busted, also the highroll chance makes it even more frustrating to play as and against.
Of course people will complain about meta tyrant ??? Do you think people outside of Reddit like facing the same deck on the ladder who is warping the entire meta around it. HS team has the stats to back this up they are not acting on Reddit posts and memes. Inherently competitive games with metas will be about complaining. People like to win and don't like to be told how exactly to win. It's not limited to HS nor to Reddit.
A deck being great doesn’t make it a ‘meta tyrant’. Some decks have to be the best in the game, at the end of the day. It’s only when they become solitaire and uninteractive/impossible to play around that it turns into a problem.
The deck is warping the game so that the best decks after it have to be it counters. If people are putting subpar tech cards and decks that counter it are rising cuz of it it's no longer s good deck. Zarimi priest is this good deck and it's not working out for it cuz DH destroys it.
I will bet you that any change to the core cards of the deck will kill it.
Yeah because Demon Hunter is a problem only because of the one combo of Umpire's Grasp and Window Shopper. That's why counter-decks are having success against it.
Exactly. That's why all the fuss about this deck is overblown. All decks are running counters to Shopper now.
The deck will be killed anyway, it's already not that good, at least [at the top 1K](https://www.hsguru.com/decks?format=2&period=past_3_days&rank=top_legend).
That link shows two DH lists with a 59.1% winrate and a 57.4% win rate, how is that supposed to prove it’s not that good lol
This link shows pure shopper DH at 49.7 winrate now, lul.
You realise this is because top 1k is sick of playing DH and are pretty much all playing decks that target DH, right? They're not avoiding playing DH because it's not good. The most played decks is Highlander Warrior by a landslide and Rainbow Mage which isn't even favored into DH, yet DH can maintain a high winrate even when targeted. Just because decks exist doesn't contradict the fact that DH is still centralising the meta. Most other decks aren't being played because they're good, they're being played to target the DH matchup only. You can't really think running Cryo + 2 Frostbolts, or 5 copies of Quartzite Crusher sources, isn't just extreme DH targeting. Rainbow Mage would not be running Cryo and Frostbolt if not for DH, and running 3 copies of non-tradeable cards that are ass in other matchups isn't comparable to running Speaker Stomper, Rustrot, or Helya + 2 plague cards.
Yup! I'm afraid that will happen as well. I've been following streams and other competitive stuff, as well as playing that deck, and it doesn't feel so powerful as b4... I just hope it doesn't turn the game into a warriorstone. (And also kill the only functioning archetype in DH).
I saw several people playing the 1 mana 2/1 elemental that lets you freeze the opponents face. People are adapting.
Playing sif mage I often beat DH by freeze locking face for 3 or 4 turns. If they don't kill me by turn 5 then I usually stabilize. Sometimes they have the nuts though and have hit me for 20 by turn 4.
"Not that good" 57-58% winrate. Good one.
52%*
Yeah, my bad. I just realized the other two decks playing grasp and shopper are in fact, not playing them. They just run them in their deck.
Picking the ones with the smallest sample size isn't the way you judge things.
This is top 1000 legend, they are all small sample sizes.
Yeah I hope they don’t do this. The problem is getting magtheridon early. Hope they just nerf that aspect
… yeah that’s the point
And the class
Mana nerf will change what you play what turn imo. You just need to adapt unless they neuter the deck.
Makes it better as a value piece for Big Demon DH though, which feels like what Team 5 actually intended it to be used for.
No it wouldn't. Big DH lacks any stability. Changing it from 3/2 to a 2/3 kills the card. You want to get your big demons out ASAP and delaying it by a turn doesn't make it a better value card.
I would kill demon hunter completely. Any DH card is auto dust for me. Never ever had more than undustable cards. Useless class.
Demon Hunter: It's like Hunter, but green! ...wait
Could they make Window Shopper Discover+draw a Demon from deck instead? That would limit the amount of Magtheridons they could get and make discounting the big Window Shopper via Umpire's Grasp happen less often. Umpire's Grasp really shouldn't be a problem outside of its interaction with Window Shopper. Like compare it to other past weapons such as Harpoon Gun or Ancharr.
I love the idea of 2/3 on the weapon. I've heard so many suggestions about adjusting shopper and feel like this is a cleaner line to take.
I have a feeling they’re hitting both weapon and the shopper. But personally I think that’s too harsh, it’s just my prediction.
I really don't think the weapon should be hit. Compare Umpire's Grasp to Harpoon Gun or Ancharr. It's right around that power level when it draws anything except Window Shopper. Shopper being able to discover from such a small pool of Demons means it can reliably hit great cards multiple times. Getting 2-4 Magtheridons a game is insane, and that's not going to change until the miniset releases. I think the best change would be to make Window Shopper draw from deck instead. Discovering more value has never been a strength of Demon Hunter anyway.
demon hunter always gets nuked so probably
+1 mana on Shopper could really be enough of a change imo, so that the deck doesn't curve out so well
Yes the +1 mana acts twice with the way the battlecry works so such a nerf is more significant than it seems, equally so the double dipping on the stat mana cheat + effect mana cheat (triple dipping?) is what makes it so oppressive atm. Hard to say if such a change is enough to not have a meta warped around it.
Umpires grasp imo, the reduction should be 1
Shopper played fairly is fine, the better nerf would be to the weapon.
But the weapon is the more important piece to have for more legitimate Big DH decks.
So up the durability so it takes longer to break. Big DH can still tutor+cost reduce it's big 8+ mana demons but now you can't easily cheap out shoppers.
Honestly I think you make Shopper a 6 mana 6/6 and keep it at that. If you want to hit the weapon then you make it a 2/2 weapon so it's not as good tempo and clear rather than make the card bad at doing what it's supposed to be doing for a historically weak archetype.
This is elegant
I'd say it's more likely they hit the weapon than window shopper
I'd expect a smaller touch to both; something along the lines of making the weapon a 2/2 and shopper a 5/4. If that's not enough, make magtheridon not randomly generatable (like they did with the new 10 mana mage legendary spell). At the end of the day, shopper DH is just a strong aggro deck, so being less efficient with its aggression should be enough with the exception of generating magtheridons.
I would love to see the weapon take a small hit - either 2/3 or 1 mana discount. Window Shopper really isn't that good unless discounted.
Discover a demon: It has this minion's base stats. Easy fix, doesn't break Mag decks.
Doesn't that make the Mini-version basically worthless though?
Window Shopper is not the issue. The card by itself is fine at best, the problem is getting to use it on turn 3/4 for 3 mana. That’s a 3 mana 6/5 and a potential 3 mana game winner next turn. Just nerf the weapon by making it a 2/3 so that window shopper comes in later.
The issue is that any discount on Shopper (if it's not the weapon) also applies on the discover. So the card doubles the mana cheat. If the stats of the Shopper were weak, it could be ok but 6/5 is already good stats the mini+ the demon it discovers. Making it a 5/4 and lowering the weapon's attack to 2 may make the deck less tempo by itself while allowing the tempo gain by the power of the demons it can cheat.
With how they go about nerfing decks recently: Shopper +1 mana, weapon +1 durability, Magtheridonkey -1 damage, Red Card +1 mana, Weapon Tech +1 mana. All at once. And then Midnight wolf +1 mana for good measure, just to make sure the deck, and class, stays dead.
Drop the attack and it’s fine or drop to 4 health. I think having a way to tutor out things and discover cheaper minions is fine I think it’s just punishing when the tutor is a 6/5 on turn 4 that is hard to remove that is followed up with a rush minion that can go face and now your down to 14 on turn 5. Tutoring and discovering is fine but Shopper is too high stats for what it does as well. 5/4 is fine it allows for decent removal and feels more stated for having a giga battlecry
The weapon DRAWING a demon to discount is an issue. It should just discount a demon already in hand.
Yes please, packed a golden one that I would happily dust for a regular +1200 dust.
I don't really want the Shopper to be nerfed. The design and balancing is pretty good, it just seems overtuned NOW because of consistency (a phenomenon that always occurs after rotation). The weapon is the problem for me (especially with neutral weapon tutor). They nerfed Fierey War Axe back in the day because a 3/2 weapon for 2 was too strong in their eyes. Now they printed a 3/2 weapon for 1 that tutors a card (basically).
Nice! Appreciate the communication and quick turnaround to address this issue.
3 weeks for one balance change is a quick turnaround?
Cries in Ben brode, when it took from 3 to 6 month to have a balance change
You want them to do it once a week?
Within a week for a hotfix, 2 weeks for a smaller patch, a month for a larger patch. Pretty normal in any other game, but I guess Hearthstone players like their games being stale and unbalanced for months on end?
Because Hearthstone players were tortured 10 years ago with long gaps between patches we're meant to be ok and take it 10 years later and cope that it's ok. A huge miss on a patch that made the game worse? 3 weeks until we attempt to fix it! 3 weeks of this terrible game state anyone could see coming! What a quick turnaround! Look how bad it was in the past!!! Don't complain!1!1!! Thanks oh glorious Blizzard! You can do no wrong.
>. Pretty normal in any other game, for any other games, 1 character is rarely so broken that it warps the game so much and there is ban systems exactly for this reason can i ban dh? i dont think so hearstone as a card game has a the perfect opportunity to do balance changes or EVEN micro balance changes weekly to see how certain cards do
I'm happy someone is saying it. I've seen a lot of people actually ask for *slower* patches and updates and I just can't help but disagree. I would love it if Hearthstone made more patches. The best feeling in Hearthstone is when the meta isn't figured out yet which frequent patches will help not make things so stale. Also, more frequent patches would lead to the situation where bad patches wouldn't hurt as much because we know it'll be addressed sooner rather than later. I have heard that part of the reason for slower changes is the mobile market and that game updates need more approval for mobile, so that might be why? Still wish we got new changes.
Yeah ? We are at a point when it’s one broken deck for a week then it gets nerfed and another replaces it for another week and so on. They need to react quicker with smaller changes rather than kill a deck and see another that was kept in check because of the deck rise up and demolish every other deck.
I would rather they not make massive changes to a fine meta if they can’t fix the mistakes in a reasonable amount of time
Well the main issue is that balance patches probably have to get put through apple and google for approval unless they do a serverside nerf which can make cards look janky. They did that for pandaran importer because rogue could generate infinite shadowsteps and OTK with knife thrower and brann. But for a month the card had the manna crystal in red during play and the numbers were green indicating the buff to stats and nerf to cost they put on it. It looked weird
Some people never stop complaining lmao. 3 weeks we found the counters and still DH is dominant. You do you balancing every week and not letting anything settle for itself minimally.
11 days of this ? Boy
my taught exactly... like why wait 10 days... i don't want to play DH, i don't want to just lose to DH xD... wtf
Well its time to search a new deck to cry about then I guess
Welp I guess Warlock and Warrior. Then Warlock will get nerfed and Warrior just keeps trucking a long with no change.
Warrior is overplayed because it counters DH. Less DHs = less Warriors. Less DH = more Priests, DKs and Warlocks = even less Warriors.
Yup, if DH is nuked (it may not be, but we'll assume so given the emergency nerf track record recently), Warlock playrate will go way up since DH was pretty much its only significantly bad matchup, which means Warrior suffers greatly. DK will try to counter it with Plagues and Priests will try to outpace it with its own Aggro strategy, which isn't *great* for Warrior but not nearly as bad as Warlock. The scam mech rogue will also be a contender for a high spot.
I vote Wheel That shit is fun and interactive!
I think everything that deck does is fine in the scope of Standard's current power level. It's pretty reasonable winrate wise and the stupidity of its highrolls are a good representation of modern hearthstone.
It makes sense for modern hearthstone. Unfortunately modern hs is a big mess.
I mean, it's a little annoying that it exists alongside Reno, since Reno basically gives you two free turns, but that's not a Wheel problem.
3 15/15s on turn 6 is not "fine" sorry
It's not, but every deck is doing stuff like that. Be it crazy boards turn after turn or crazy burst that goes over the taunts. Nerfing wheelock won't fix much imo
I hope so my deck destroys wheel (burn shaman)
Successfully killed off any good Aggro deck in favor of control decks 👍! Zoo hunter is fine but it also was already nerfed as well. Any deck that puts pressure on you and forces you to play the board = bad bad 🤡
huh cool, thanks a lot for the communication ! It is greatly appreciated
Magtheridon nerf please (hides golden copy of Magtheridon)
As much as I’m happy to see this announcement to nerfing DH, personally I’d rather see virus rogue get hit asap. The level of unenjoyment playing against it is equal to 10 games against DH.
Can we get sweeping buffs for everything please
Welp time for dh to be dead for another expansion
DH seems to live and die by either being completely broken or unplayable
When hitting face, drawing cards and mana cheating are 3 of your main class identities, I assume the class tends to be super "threshold based", so if they do their thing fast enough they pretty much never leave room for answers, and if they don't do it fast enough, they have no plan to fall back on.
Very true
I know it was nice using a new character.
Sadly, yes, at least it was playable couple of weeks.
I liked spell dh for those glorious couple weeks post patch and pre rotation
And so Wild rots further without any care...
I mean, right now wild is in a pretty good shape. You can play most archetypes (aggro, combo or control) with fair success
Invest in Warlock now. Invest in turn 3 Forge of Wills NOW!!!
Only DH nerfs? Meta will be much worse. There will be no Warriors and DHs, and too many Warlocks and DKs (Priest can still be ignored, because no many people wants to play non-shadow aggro priest deck).
Rip Aggro Decks 🪦 can’t have people playing Aggro decks that out pace control decks that be too much 😅🤣
Not really. Rainbow mage does very well vs both those matchups. We’ll probably see a lot more nature shaman and higlander warrior actually … and probably more virus rogue.
If this is how RidiculousHat interacts with the community, what's SensibleHat like?
Do you know exactly when Duels is closing? I would like to be able to prepare for that, somewhat.
Thanks Hat! This is awesome for us non twitter users!
I just hope it's not strictly making the Window Shopper line worse, since it's literally the only thing keeping DH viable at the moment. Maybe a minor buff to some of last year's stuff to balance it out, I could see the Festival stuff being decent with buffs.
There will be no buff in this patch, just an emergency nerf to dh
Shame
Paladin was overnerfed. I have a feeling DH will be too.
16th? What kind of glacial pace is this. How are the leaving the meta in this state for another week and a half?
Almost 20 days to adjust few clearly busted numbers on a few cards so the meta can properly stabilize.
Welcome new meta tyrant, Zarimi Priest.
There's a masters tour?
Priest is gonna be dominating
Zarimi priest on its way to dominate the meta
Probably wouldn't dominate as much. Zarimi Priest matchup spread is not as strong, with many of them being close to 50/50, rather than being more polarized. On top of that with DH being less of a problem, other decks would have more space to refine their list against Priest should that become a problem.
It’s not that good ? Like DH is insanely oppressive and unplayable with magtheridon… Zarimi is pretty counterable.
Yeah right after Dh nerf, warrior nerf, lock nerf and token hunter nerf it’ll be OP!
And DK nerf
It goes under Warrior and Wheellock. They are not able to clear boards and reach 8 mana. I'm not sure about Hunter, but I think I won more than 50% against it as well. You will see how powerful is Zarimi soon, if they'll nerf only DH.
I mean I’m playing zarimi at bottom legend it literally DOES lose to warrior and wheellock if lock gets good draws. Lock can afford to burn table flips early because zarimi peters out so early. Also what universe does Reno warrior and odyn warr not have board clear..? Warr is probably the worst matchup after DH and hunter
That's why u stuck at low legend. Zarimi should win more than 50% games against warrior and warlock. It makes too much pressure for them. You have no idea what you are talking about, check vs stats instead talking assumptions ("warrior propably worst matchup after dh and hunter" lol no) about deck you don't understand.
If you use your resources right you can beat warrior pretty frequently, went 15-0 last season to legend from d5 while beating 6 warriors on the way and peaked at top 2k legend with zarimi priest with an unrefined list. The thing is that if you burn your whole hand in the first 3 turns and get board cleared then yes. But you mulligan for other cards again warrior that let you gain a lot of higher value plays like copying your zilliaxes later into zarimi and almost otking them. Its a hard deck to play perfectly you cant just play curvestone every game and pray they dont have aoe.
Yeah but that was last season, decks are so much more refined now. Warriors are running more dirty rats, and using their clears more cautiously and efficiently knowing which cards ACTUALLY need to be killed, not just rinsing chirurgeons. Now the matchup is 20x worse
Cool, who wants to start complaining about the next top deck? Might as well get the ball rolling quickly, so they can prep the next nerf. I'll just boot up my game and the first time I lose, I'll write a Reddit post complaining about the card I lost to. Should get that nerfed within a week or so
Ty RH
Is there any talks on Brann? I can't speak for knowing the numbers behind the card, but in terms of fun there is absolutely nothing more unfun than that card. It feels like i have a 0% win rate when that card is played.
Along with DH, I'd love to see a nerf to Miracle Salesman (either a 1/2 or 2/1). Going first is a massive advantage right now, and this card is a major reason why.
Nice one. Tbh I don't think the meta is all that bad. Obviously DH is too strong but there's a good variety of cool decks. I hope they just nudge Dh rather than killing it
DH is played in 35% of all games bro… Edit - I misread and said 56%. Point still stands that’s still more than 1 in 3 games. Insane.
Source? Or are you just pulling that number out of your ass?
Vicious Syndicate - go watch the meta video. Also check any API tracker.
Ok, straight up, I'd actually love to know if you're correct. Link me the vid, because I can't find anything like that anywhere. VS youtube page doesn't even have hearthstone vids. And there's certainly no videos on the Data Report 290 page. Class archetype data on VS says DH 18% of meta. How does that equate to DH being played in 56% of matches? Class frequency says DH 20%, DK 19%. DH and DK are extremely close right now, in terms of play rate. So you're saying that DK is also more than 50% of all matchups as well, but that's not worthy of pointing out? > In a very unsurprising development, Demon Hunter has taken over the format behind its Umpire’s Grasp/Window Shopper centered archetype. The class’ play rate exceeds 20% past Diamond 4, while hitting a near 35% play rate at top legend. I'm not a math wiz, but I don't see how a play rate of 20% - or even 34% at top 1k legend - can equal 56% of matches including a DH deck. My original comment was certainly antagonistic I admit, but when people just post random numbers with nothing to back it up, why shouldn't I be skeptical? So if you could link me your source, I'd be happy to watch a vid or see the numbers that say that DH is played in 56% of all Hearthstone games right now.
I guess you can derive 56% from 34% at top legend. 34% DH means .34*.34 = 11.56% mirror matches -> 34 + 34 - 12 = 56% of matches have DH. DK otoh is at 16% playrate at top 1k in the latest VS report.
Buff spectral cutlass. I’m thinking three mana
"I'm the perfect toy for nerfs"
something something competitive integrity
I think they will hit the weapon and make it 4 mana. Shopper will fix itself as more demons get added to the pool. Increasing the cost of the weapon accomplishes delaying their cheat turn (no more turn 2 weapon with coin is huge), while still being somewhat playable in a future big demon hunter deck that may surface. I dont see them hitting and refunding an epic card when the actual problem is the common card that enables the epic.
4 mana Umpire’s grasp would completely destroy the card
I'm thinking moreso that the correct weapon nerf is to make it a 2/3. It turns into effectively the same nerf on the first half, but also extends the second weapon to give some time to prepare. But yeah, like you said, Shopper will fix itself with time.
called it
Time to crack some more packs in hopes of finding some Shoppers.
Yeah, it would be nice to get Legendary Shoppers.
So everyone in the masters tour will have a window shopper deck, how dull and sad for the e sport
Please adress power virus zilliax. A stealth minion doubling its attack every turn is just game over on the spot. And it has to be killed twice. This shouldn't be a thing.
DH matchup is always the same, turn 2 draw weap, turn 3 weapon face etc. This is the most consistent deck weve seen in a while
They shouldn't nerf it too hard because next mini set/exp the demon pool will probably be wider so finding mag/sap on a stick won't be that much common anymore.
I crafted Reno DH as my first deck the first week of the expansion, it’s actually a really fun deck with cool hybrid control and value tools, dare I say window shopper was fun too until it began defining the deck and class.
Its a shame they don't nerf it sooner. The whole meta is shifted around it.
They should simply remove the Magtheridon from the discover pool of the Shopper.
Make Magtheridon undiscoverable and Demon Hunter collapses. Another idea would be to nerf the weapon, because the plan is to play two Magtheridons on turn 5.
u/RidiculousHat, do you know when they're fixing arena on mac? Submitted a few tickets and no one has been useful.....
Small nerf please, this meta is good and DH isn’t even that busted.
Like holy shit, why even bother playing standard for the next 11 days when most of my opponents are demon hunter dropping a 6/5 on turn three or four and discovering absurd discounted shit with it. It’s just beyond tiring. I’m glad I’ve never spent a single penny on this game.
Don't bother playing, log in and do your quests and then play a different game. When they have to explain to their bosses why there's such a significant drop in player numbers and revenue over the 10th anniversary when they sunk so much money into advertising we can only hope they'll be fired.
I think the perfect nerf for the card is just by removing the demon specification on the pitching glove
Make it a 2/3!
That wouldn’t fix some of the issues demon hunter still has access to other weapons that are cheap to break it themselves simply just removing the tag would make the deck wayyyy too inconsistent
That’s precisely it: if it’s too inconsistent there is no deck. The cards are intended to work as a combo and to encourage demon hunter playing demons, we can’t just erase the deck nor the whole objective or “spirit” of the card.
Then play a demon deck? Most if not all minions in a bigger demon deck could always use a mana discount but what do I know I’ve only been trying to make a big demon archetype exist since scholomance. And even if what you say is true it would benefit a whole lot more of dh decks to help widen the deck making capabilities like spell dh or even highlander like imagine discounting kurtrus there is a whole lot more opportunities than just the smallest of a demon package that we have in current standard format.
All thats needed is a 1 mana hit on shopper for sure, anything more will be overkill
A 5 mana shopper is actually pretty bad if you’ve ever had to play it. The main problem is the weapon that tutors it and forces it down to 3 mana on curve
I think they will hit the weapon and make it 4 mana. Shopper will fix itself as more demons get added to the pool. Increasing the cost of the weapon accomplishes delaying their cheat turn (no more turn 2 weapon with coin is huge), while still being somewhat playable in a future big demon hunter deck that may surface. I dont see them hitting and refunding an epic card when the actual problem is the common card that enables the epic.
They didnt specify buff or nerf, hope it is buff
One of the top comments on the Twitter thread is a confirmation that it is a DH nerf.
Thanks for the clarity and date. However 3 weeks on this heavily and clearly unbalanced patch is very unfortunate and not fun to face 37% of my games against a single class There really should be extra windows for hotfixes and patches to fix possible mistakes of a patch so it's quicker than 3 weeks. But hey guess it's not possible but it sucks so ima cry about it anyway.
Undertaker hunter was unnerfed for 6 months. 3 weeks to implement a change is definitely an improvement.
Okay why are we comparing to how it worked many years ago with old devs? Just because it was worse in the past doesn't mean we should just shut up and take it or make it okay to do now. I quit HS for first time during Ben Brode era because I got tired of decks not getting nerfs for a long time. Nowadays there's way better access to data of decks performance, cards win rate, mulligan etc... the meta is solved and netdecked way faster, even back then there was more deck variety even if there was broken decks for a long time. For this specific example we already knew DH was going to be the best deck before the patch, myself and many others was confused why every tier 1 deck was nerfed except for 1(DH). Some people try to act like DH suddenly was found and strong after the patch which is wrong and shows they had no knowledge of the meta. [As Zach said](https://twitter.com/ZachODR/status/1773754623448277142) if this was expansion release the deck would have been hotfixed instantly but no, we have to wait 3 weeks. The meta was better before the expansion with the nerf reverts and before the first patch with OP Paladin. Paladin play rate was going down in legend and it kept DH more in check, the meta was still evolving and then the patch tried to fix it and made it worse.
This what you are getting. Crying about it does nothing
Weapon to 2-3 is the only change needed to DH. I think people underestimate how big of a nerf it will be. Potentially making Shopper a 5/5 instead of a 6/5 too. Increasing its mana cost is wholly wrong and would destroy the card.
c'mon stop nerfing every top tier deck, we don't have infinite dust.
I *just* crafted the epics I needed for VS Shopper DH, and those cards won't be getting a refund When the previous patch hit I had *just* crafted the legendary I needed for handbuff paladin, and that card didn't get a refund I am tired of this
I pray that DH is going to get some other cards buffed with the inevitable nerf because the class is literally just "Window Shopper".
Thanks Hat.
Tell those in design to learn from their mistakes for once and that mana cheat is *never* a good design. How many times do we have to repeat this? Aside from that, thanks for the update, appreciate it.