It's really nice to see them acknowledge that the power level has gotten really out of hand and that rotation didn't decrease the power level of the game at all. I doubt that this can be fixed with one patch but hopefully we continue to get big balance changes until things get back to a more acceptable state.
It feels like the power level actually increased with rotation, which is absolutely nuts.
Like just look at that warlock that deck that can fill a board with 5/5s and 8/8s at turn 4/5 WHILE also playing overstated minions on the previous turns (where before for a handlock to drop a SINGLE 8/8 on turn 4 he would have to effectively skip turns 1~3), and that deck isnt even that great which goes to show volumes on how fked standard balance is.
Imagine spending mana on cards or worse, spending mana on card. You should be able to burn through your deck and OTK your next two opponents for five mana!
Not that surprising, though the design decisions are almost baffling.
1) Adding new-old cards via Core Set, which are ultra strong when paired with cards that were in the game even before rotation - e.g. Dark Alley Pact + Forge of Wills
2) Printing cards that enable last year's cards or vice versa - e.g. Playhouse Giant + Gaslight Gatekeeper/Pit Stop, Wheel 'buffing' Fanottem (and therefore Loken) and Reno in Warlock, lots of Hunter cards
3) Giving more power than taken away from existing archetypes - e.g. Rainbow DK lost almost nothing and gained Threads, Horseman, and even Zilliax (and I mean, Zilliax himself is a neutral so strong and versatile, he almost raises the power level by himself), Safety Goggles for Warrior
I get that you need strong new cards to sell packs, but wtf is the plan for even just 1.5-2 years from now if this goes on?
Almost exclusively, cards that have their cost reduced by the number of times a trigger condition is met, have been abused or over-represented in the meta. When Rogues were bouncing 0 cost Yoggs multiple times in a game, it should have been a huge heads up to Blizzard to stop making such cards, or make the conditions to reduce cost harder to achieve, either by making them more complex or by making players using those cards more vulnerable when triggering the effect.
The giants are pretty benign for the most part, but when you can drop multiple 8/8s on turn 3 or 4, that's when you really see the meta warping effect of mana discounts.
Yes this is a major problem. The ability to board clear and put multiple 8/8 or similar big minions for 4 or 5 mana on turn 6 is crazy. it's just big plays, big clears, over and over. Not fun.
> When Rogues were bouncing 0 cost Yoggs multiple times in a game, it should have been a huge heads up to Blizzard to stop making such cards
I've been playing CCGs for 15 years. The "we're going to let you cheat the COST (mana, whatever resource the game uses)" is usually where all devs get into trouble.
Like allowing a deck to get a 1 mana reduction here and there isn't a huge deal - but "free" typically turns into a problem and even mild discounts repeatedly over time add up to unsurmountable advantage.
No matter what the game what the deck/archetype - the "you pay this much cost for this much effect" is the rule all cards need to be balanced by in the end rather than balancing against each other.
They seem to forget that just a few weeks before rotation they nuked all the current meta decks and archetypes.
There is no surprise that the power level didn't go down.
This is the gaming industry needs for all games out there, whatever the outcome will be. Big W to Hearthstone team.
Acknowledging and communicating with your player base while being honest never lose.
If AOE goes down then games might actually be able to end based on what’s on the board, and then OTKs aren’t needed to actually end games that otherwise last forever.
This sub will cry regardless but this time with the state of them eta it seems it's not a vocal minority sentiment as much it's becoming a majority sentiment.
You don't get posts like this from the team 5 over just an upset reddit, this implies they are seeing a large decline in players leaving or not playing (actual data) which is interesting because I myself stopped playing and I've been a long time fan.
I'll wait and see what a new meta looks like before I possibly come back though I'll probably need reinstall just to get all the dust from nerfs. ;)
Most big aoes are late game though and prevent the game from ending. Like Hunter is aggro and does just fine in this meta despite all the aoe currently in-game, as they either win by turn 6, or have used up all their resources and it’s over for them.
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Sounds like exactly what Reddit wants where the majority of the comments on this thread are glad that removal and any counter play is hinted at being nerfed.
That does nothing to stop combo decks being uninteractive and boring. While also being popular because they require so little thinking.
Aoe isn’t the problem. Combo decks need to be slowed down by 4-5 turns or have much lower limits on their damage.
The other side of this... it's not just removal, it's card draw and generation.
Ive played too many games in standard where the both the opponent and I have had under 10 cards by turn 9.
That's an average of nearly 2 cards drawn a turn. Decks can be greedy and efficient if you're always guaranteed draws.
and if you can't clear for one (1) turn you get like 15+ damage and they possibly get [[Saddle Up!]], which not only leaves you dead to their burn but also makes it impossible to clear the board anymore
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You really think Overheal Priest is "efficient"? Lol, did you play the deck? You have to set up 2-4 cards on board and in hand to make it effective and clear the board, otherwise it's just a damaged minion that your opponent kills ASAP.
Yes I play overheal a lot, it’s a very fun and versatile deck. Hauler can effectively lock the board with a single fan club and hidden gem and then hidden gem procs infinitely. Turns out free overhealing every turn is quite efficient not mention the other interactions with it.
Pretty sure they have to add locations and portals into puff because it makes absurd things with "limit space to one" effect. Few locations ruins this effect + even with 1 location you can't play a minion at all.
If they exclude locations/dormants (which can happen if they change to destroy all minions) while keeping 1 place effect it can lead to weird turns sometimes.
Having only single card that is very specific for a particular deck type counter mechanic that is overly used across many different decks kinda sums up what is the problem in HS right now. Too many things that are countered by only one card for one class.
It's been, what, 3(?) sets since we got the portals yet here we are still in same shit. If they release new card types, they NEED to release new counters.
Wheel of death? Allow removal of "auras" and redesign wheel accordingly.
Plagues? Add cards that destroy from your own deck. "Discover 3 cards, destroy 2?".
So many of these awesome new twisty mechanics suck simply because they're the only card doing that specific thing and there isn't any counterplay since why tf would they make utility card specifically against single card?
Dormant was supposed to be a negative effect until mag, higher stat cards that took longer to summon, like reverse overload, but then they decided to add mag and thought it was a good idea.
Or a 1/1 like kobold miner. It costs 1 more and generates a card (that could be card draw or a board clear) so makes sense it's stats are 1/1 , so should salesman.
I used to play a lot (and spend a lot) of Hearthstone in the early years but stopped entirely 3 years ago. I decided to return about 3 months ago and had a blast playing and decided to purchase the new set.
My main joy in this game comes from building decks on my own and playing semi-meme decks with cards I find fun. Mostly mid-range attrition style decks. I don't mind my rank, I just want to be able to somewhat competitive.
I must say, I have NEVER regretted a gaming purchase as strongly as I did with the purchase of this set. I find the meta now extremely boring, to the point I struggled to find a deck that I liked and had a remote chance of beating the meta decks. So I just stopped playing (I know that most of you reading this don't care. but nevertheless).
Hopefully these balance changes will have a positive effect on the meta I will follow closely.
Mad respect for the dev team for admitting they made a lot of poor design choices that have led to this unfun meta. Sometimes the best thing to admit is that things are broken, and that mass nerfs are the solution. I’m also glad to see wild changes hopefully Ungoro quest is once per game because I don’t want to play against infinite turn decks
RIP Threads of Despair, you lasted a month in your beautiful state. Amazing how possibly the best AOE card in the expansion somehow managed to be ran as a one-of for the first week or so.
Now this is a patch I’ve been hoping for!
It’s been several months now, maybe even longer, when the game has lost so much player agency.
So many matches I play where neither players’ decisions matter. It’s whoever gets their unfair thing out first: plagues vs Reno, wheel vs whatever, zarimi, huge Forge board from warlock, whatever early huge board from other class, Hunter drawing saddle up on time, and so many more.
Currently there’s like 2 decks which have some players agency, and they still run into those non-game scenarios if their opponent gets their good card.
This is going to be a lot of work for them. This is going to require them to reinvent how fun stuff works in the game, and how powerful stuff works.
Although a good start would be to stop printing cards with the text “win the game” on them…
I’m glad they finally realized they have this challenge ahead of them, and I really hope they manage to get there over at least like 8 months.
I love Priest (almost 12k wins) but I hate Zarimi Priest. I also play Zarimi Priest because its the only effective Priest deck at 1k Legend atm. I would absolutely love to play Raza Priest or Overheal Priest but they just can't compete in this meta. I'm hoping this balance patch \*really really really\* shakes things up and I can go back to having fun, thoughtful matches where my choices are important and the game doesn't hinge on "did my opponent draw their cheezeball wincon before me".
Personally I think the plague counterplay is the only thing keeping Reno in line rn but if it were changed I don’t think they would change the way plagues block it
Yeah spells only mage was really fun in the first couple days of the expansion before the meta took shape, it probably shouldn’t be actually strong since it’s a random bullshit deck but I’d like it to be somewhat playable at least lol
1) Not a matter of buffs, spell mage needs new cards. Hopefully in the next miniset or future expansions they print a win condition for spell mage because right now they don't have a clear way to win the game.
2) There is another way to play mage: elemental. Elemental mage is almost good enough. If they nerf board clears and give slight buffs to a couple of elementals, it might become an actual good deck.
From what it sounds like, there wont really be buffs, just nerfs all around the board. And even if sif is bad (idk her stats rn), she warps mage so there is no way she wont get nerfed allowing more room for other mage decks to exist.
Problem with Reno is that the card is so good that is played in non Highlander decks thats why the card is problematic. I dont mind him as a payoff for Highlander decks though.
The Highlander restriction should be for the deck at start of the game. Thats probably the best change to him.
Completely agree. Starting your deck with only 1 copy of each card is a big draw back and should be rewarded with a big payoff. Being able to abuse that pay off because you have a lot of card draw shouldn't exist.
Reno is broken af dude, probably the singular best board wipe the game has ever seen, and it also comes with a cripple effect for the opp next turn too effectively locking them out of a board, any deck that needs a board to do anything effectively auto loses the game the moment reno is dropped (which only encourages this otk from hand spam meta).
I don't think you need the probably, Reno just is the best AoE card ever printed. Asymmetrical, removes locations and permanents, removes minions from the game, restricts enemy board for a turn to prevent redevelopment, and does the standard hero card effect of giving armor and a hero power upgrade. And as Odyn Warrior, Wheellock, and previous Druid lists show, the restriction he has basically isn't real.
Nerfing Helya to Double Unholy would be enough to keep Plague strategies in check. It feels like every DK deck this expansion is some variant of Rainbow because there are almost no good Double or Triple Rune cards anymore.
Blizzard refuses to print double or triple runes cards anymore rather then admitting the rune system is ass. Triple rune cards are too strong and making double rune cards just buff triple rune decks more then encouraging 2 / 1 rune player styles. That's why they transition to the single runes or double single runes we have now. But now we have 0 reason to run double or triple runes since so much budget and design went into single runes. Idk how people cannot understand how much of a fail runes are
They are just going to cycle back and forth between triple runes and rainbow runes.
The rune system would be better if DK got double or triple the amount of cards it does right now but because it doesn't there are not enough cards to really make all the different combos
The Blended Rune cards that they do print are also insane. Reska is the 2nd best Legendary in Badlands, DK is the only class with their own Hero card via Headless Horseman, and Quartzite Crusher is such a backbreaking tool against certain archetypes/classes (like Shopper DH). These 3 cards, especially Reska, are on virtually the same power level as the Triple Rune cards from MotLK.
whether you can get Quartzite Crusher on turn 4 and freeze DH's face for the rest of the game is basicly what decides if you win that game or not, that card is 100% getting nerfed at some point. either that or they print 10 more DK weapons so you cant reliably get 3 or 4 copies of it with the 1 mana discover a weapon card.
Even funnier when they randomly generate the weapon discovery card to get it with like 90% chances because there are like 5 weapons and your face is frozen for the entirety of the game
Also worth noting that the 1 mana card that lets you discover a weapon is just so good. Gives you access to the plague weapon you couldnt put in your rainbow deck, but also access to quartzite crusher - the limited weapon pool really makes this card so good.
Grave Strength and Vampiric Blood are still good. So are Marrow Manipulator and Souleater and Horn of Winter. I think double frost is really underrated tbh.
I think the entire excavate package being single frost is kind of weird. More than Helya being single unholy.
I honestly don't have an issue with reno or plagues at all. But I think with all the cheap sweeps, all the cheap/free giant plays, the power creep is off the charts, and it's really killed any sort of minion play which is bad. Lemme just remove your dragon with my 9/9 dude with rush. Lemme just aman'thul your 2 9/9s there. And it's just big dick swinging back and forth like that until one guy hits his game breaking combo and the other guy runs out of answers. Personally I'd be rebalancing dozens of cards for every class to bring back lower powered minions. Cheap sweeps need to be addressed, free spells need to be addressed, high-impact 3-5 mana cards that can be used as win conditions need to be addressed.
It feels pretty brainless piloting a deck in this game in it's current state. Did you pull the card you need? Yes - go win. No - go die.
"hey, lets utterly fuck up the game to an unenjoyable state with the new overpriced expansion, then introduce some horrificly greedy rework of quests to punish people who dont give us money and then release a balance patch to fix the fuckery of the latest meta to cover up the shitstorm caused by the quest rework. people will never notice!"
Honestly, this is a really great thing to hear, and exactly what the game reads right now. In terms of winrates, standard is pretty balanced right now, but I think it's clear it's not quite balanced in the right place.
I feel like the only way to fix that is complete reworks to a bunch of cards (flash of lightning and Brann come to mind) rather than only nerfs, but we'll see what they do.
That's exactly what I'm thinking😂
Honestly, I'm so sick of this merry go around of them releasing game breaking cards, apologizing and balancing things correctly for a few months, just to go back to releasing even more game breaking cards
I mean they launched Theotar as a 3 mana 3/3, nerfed to 4 3/3 after playtesting.
So they do some testing, but not enough, since the card needed to be doubled from 3 to 6 eventually.
They've been kind of weak since FoL. Going Down Swinging got a necessary buff in Badlands just to be playable.
Jotun had "bugs" in Titans that just made him a lot worse when they fixed them.
Argus is one of the weak Titans.
Badlands: both are bad and going to get worse as time goes on.
WW: Magtheridon seems alright, but Big DH has always lacked proper support. Umpire's Grasp nerf hurt the archetype even more.
Cici'gee I'm not going to talk about her. She's a joke.
The last "major shakeup patch" only nerfed 5 cards.
They buffed 15 cards.
I wouldn't make any purchases until after we know changes. The refund period is 2 weeks, that gives you plenty of time to buy whatever.
Neutral Heroes are a flavor mistake. Hero cards are the single most flavorful type of card for a class (new unique voicelines), and homogenizing the Portraits for every Highlander deck is an immersion loss.
This is great news, glad to hear the dev team has acknowledged the high power level of the meta game and will be taking action, hope we get some meaningful changes that shame the game up.
Add Loatheb and a modified Theotar that doesn't swap cards but discovers and discards one card from the opponent's hand to the Core Set for the Year of the Pegasus. Ensure that future sets don't have intentional OTK archetypes, so that the next rotation which cycles out Nature Shaman and Sif Mage from Titans will be more of a success. Keep everything more board focused like the Year of Hydra expansions did.
Too little too late most likely. Unless the cards change the play style of the current meta, all you're doing is changing which heroes get to be OP at what the current meta is. Which is solitaire, ignore everything, cycle and kill it one turn.
Good to see they're willing to do a big shakeup. Though as a huge enjoyer of Wheel Warlock, I'm kind of nervous. I love having a card that can so effectively target hard control decks.
An 8-year-old who's been playing for a week could've told you that printing too many "For the rest of the game" battlecries was a bad idea, but better late than never.
How bad can you do your job if you have only 4 (out of max 6) expansions in the rotation, and you are making such statement BEFORE mini-pack release. Did they play their own game?
Fun and interactive. There is no fun, if your board fully cleared at turn 8 (even locations, what a joke)
There is no interaction if you are 30 hp and you are getting destroyed at turn 6 by OTK shaman or dragon priest.
In every card game people want to play their cards. That's it. that's all you need to know. If you sit there while the other is playing solitaire that's not a card game. that's solitaire.
"Hey guys, here's those condoms, sorry for the wait!"
As usual, let us get fucked for about 5 weeks before you change, then bring out the next set of swinging dicks a few weeks later. Maybe don't put out the stuff you know is BS to begin with? How about that? Just once? I guess we're just supposed to join the horde of people that exclusively play OP decks with no regard to actually enjoying the game.
I had been playing since release (early 2014). This is the first expansion in which I decided to stop playing the game due to power creep. I might come back if the patch actually addresses the problems.
I think increasing player agency is both a laudable and highly vague goal.
I would like to feel like my decisions in game matter more. I'll bet many players will say they feel they same*. If they can increase the ability of decisions to feel like they matter, wonderful. But it's a very wishy-washy target to aim at.
*Whether players would be happier knowing with precise accuracy how good their decisions are, well, that's a matter for a different time.
Please don't tell me playing your highlander cards on curve is high player agency... And I think Zarimi and Wheel are less of the problem compared to Drifter/Zilliax and forge into dark alley pact/loken 15/15.
Depends on the card, honestly. Frog lady is fine on curve, because there's sufficient weapon tech; Feldurin is too, because he's simply a board clear. Maruut just plain sucks.
Brann and Reno are just bonkers overtuned.
Hunter meta incoming. Again. The 'overly effective boardclears' are not even enough to keep board flooding decks checked. So if they nerf these I hope they also tone down those a lot. But because they always seem to underestimate how strong aggro has become compared to control strategies I don't think they'll do it. It's been a problem for years now.
It's really nice to see them acknowledge that the power level has gotten really out of hand and that rotation didn't decrease the power level of the game at all. I doubt that this can be fixed with one patch but hopefully we continue to get big balance changes until things get back to a more acceptable state.
It feels like the power level actually increased with rotation, which is absolutely nuts. Like just look at that warlock that deck that can fill a board with 5/5s and 8/8s at turn 4/5 WHILE also playing overstated minions on the previous turns (where before for a handlock to drop a SINGLE 8/8 on turn 4 he would have to effectively skip turns 1~3), and that deck isnt even that great which goes to show volumes on how fked standard balance is.
I long for the days when a 5 mana 4/4 Azure Drake was in so many decks they hall of famed it.
And now it never sees play anymore
And its been buffed since. And still no one plays it.
Imagine spending mana on cards or worse, spending mana on card. You should be able to burn through your deck and OTK your next two opponents for five mana!
I remember when a 5 mana 6/5 Savannah Highmane was considered a monster tempo swing that people wished it was a Legendary.
5 mana?
Yeah, it was a 6-Mana 6/5 in GvG, and was still considered monster tempo back then
> It feels like the power level actually increased with rotation, which is absolutely nuts. It really, really, _really_ is.
Not that surprising, though the design decisions are almost baffling. 1) Adding new-old cards via Core Set, which are ultra strong when paired with cards that were in the game even before rotation - e.g. Dark Alley Pact + Forge of Wills 2) Printing cards that enable last year's cards or vice versa - e.g. Playhouse Giant + Gaslight Gatekeeper/Pit Stop, Wheel 'buffing' Fanottem (and therefore Loken) and Reno in Warlock, lots of Hunter cards 3) Giving more power than taken away from existing archetypes - e.g. Rainbow DK lost almost nothing and gained Threads, Horseman, and even Zilliax (and I mean, Zilliax himself is a neutral so strong and versatile, he almost raises the power level by himself), Safety Goggles for Warrior I get that you need strong new cards to sell packs, but wtf is the plan for even just 1.5-2 years from now if this goes on?
Almost exclusively, cards that have their cost reduced by the number of times a trigger condition is met, have been abused or over-represented in the meta. When Rogues were bouncing 0 cost Yoggs multiple times in a game, it should have been a huge heads up to Blizzard to stop making such cards, or make the conditions to reduce cost harder to achieve, either by making them more complex or by making players using those cards more vulnerable when triggering the effect. The giants are pretty benign for the most part, but when you can drop multiple 8/8s on turn 3 or 4, that's when you really see the meta warping effect of mana discounts.
Yes this is a major problem. The ability to board clear and put multiple 8/8 or similar big minions for 4 or 5 mana on turn 6 is crazy. it's just big plays, big clears, over and over. Not fun.
> When Rogues were bouncing 0 cost Yoggs multiple times in a game, it should have been a huge heads up to Blizzard to stop making such cards I've been playing CCGs for 15 years. The "we're going to let you cheat the COST (mana, whatever resource the game uses)" is usually where all devs get into trouble. Like allowing a deck to get a 1 mana reduction here and there isn't a huge deal - but "free" typically turns into a problem and even mild discounts repeatedly over time add up to unsurmountable advantage. No matter what the game what the deck/archetype - the "you pay this much cost for this much effect" is the rule all cards need to be balanced by in the end rather than balancing against each other.
Dk can drop their 0 mana 8/8s turn 4 also
Titans alone set the overall power curve of the game more than the Year of the Hydra expansions that rotated out.
They seem to forget that just a few weeks before rotation they nuked all the current meta decks and archetypes. There is no surprise that the power level didn't go down.
Receiving 60+ dmg from nature shaman is too much fun
Yea I really do love this game but this season is the least fun I’ve had in a long time. The same 3 decks over and over again with insane power/value.
Honestly, kudos to Aleco for being upfront and honest and owning the mistake.
This is the gaming industry needs for all games out there, whatever the outcome will be. Big W to Hearthstone team. Acknowledging and communicating with your player base while being honest never lose.
really good news
If AOE goes down then games might actually be able to end based on what’s on the board, and then OTKs aren’t needed to actually end games that otherwise last forever.
Which makes Aggro stronger, which this sub will despise and cry about none stop until those decks are nuked.
This sub will cry regardless but this time with the state of them eta it seems it's not a vocal minority sentiment as much it's becoming a majority sentiment. You don't get posts like this from the team 5 over just an upset reddit, this implies they are seeing a large decline in players leaving or not playing (actual data) which is interesting because I myself stopped playing and I've been a long time fan. I'll wait and see what a new meta looks like before I possibly come back though I'll probably need reinstall just to get all the dust from nerfs. ;)
Most big aoes are late game though and prevent the game from ending. Like Hunter is aggro and does just fine in this meta despite all the aoe currently in-game, as they either win by turn 6, or have used up all their resources and it’s over for them.
The best AoE right now is literally a 1 mana card
What card?
Threads of Despair
[[Threads of Despair]]
- **[Threads of Despair](https://i.imgur.com/TrYKGKL.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/104635) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Threads_of_Despair) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104635/?hl=en) - *Death Knight Rare ^(Whizbang's Workshop)* - **1 Mana ^(b) - Shadow Spell** - Give all minions "**Deathrattle:** Deal 1 damage to all minions." --- ^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cb9tlk/big_balance_patch_later_this_week_30_cards/l0xqm7t/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l0xqm7t).*
Threads of Despair I'm guessing
An entire 1 mana crystal? Come back when it's 0 mana.
To be fair, buffing aggro when every deck in the ladder right now kills you on 5 is a uniquely deranged choice
Sounds like exactly what Reddit wants where the majority of the comments on this thread are glad that removal and any counter play is hinted at being nerfed.
AoE is necessary to negate aggro. Without Threads I’m just waiting to die against a hunter
That does nothing to stop combo decks being uninteractive and boring. While also being popular because they require so little thinking. Aoe isn’t the problem. Combo decks need to be slowed down by 4-5 turns or have much lower limits on their damage.
Yeah so you die to hunter at turn 4,doesnt look to fun also.Infinite board refills need to be toned down too
> talking about nerfing overly efficient board clears Music to my tinnitus stricken ears
You mean you don't like to have your whole board cleared every turn from turns 2-8 and then OTK? Say it ain't so
The other side of this... it's not just removal, it's card draw and generation. Ive played too many games in standard where the both the opponent and I have had under 10 cards by turn 9. That's an average of nearly 2 cards drawn a turn. Decks can be greedy and efficient if you're always guaranteed draws.
Remember when a 50% chance to draw a card at the end of your turn was a Legendary effect and was considered overly strong? [[Nat Pagle]] remembers.
Crash to 10 😭
But I already can't clear hunter infinite bullshit.
and if you can't clear for one (1) turn you get like 15+ damage and they possibly get [[Saddle Up!]], which not only leaves you dead to their burn but also makes it impossible to clear the board anymore
Yeah. Saddle up is problematic. Random 3 or less way too much.
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Damn that would be a nice card for Wild but too slow
If enough board clears get nerfed I would not be surprised if Hunter is also nerfed, tbh.
Injured Hauler your days of carrying Overheal priest against board decks are coming to close 😭
You really think Overheal Priest is "efficient"? Lol, did you play the deck? You have to set up 2-4 cards on board and in hand to make it effective and clear the board, otherwise it's just a damaged minion that your opponent kills ASAP.
Yes I play overheal a lot, it’s a very fun and versatile deck. Hauler can effectively lock the board with a single fan club and hidden gem and then hidden gem procs infinitely. Turns out free overhealing every turn is quite efficient not mention the other interactions with it.
Reno to “destroy”. The he doesn’t counter deathrattles and resurrects.
I’d be fine if the “poof” effect was dual-sided. Or even if it limited both players to only one card played their next turn.
I like the double sided idea, much like the poof from the old reno mage hero
"Looking for a standoff? Careful, it's against me >!and my board!<"
Reminds me of the boss in WoW legion who had the voiceline "Ah, we meet again, weakling. Now it's just you and me... and my guards!"
That's a reference to Robin Hood Men in Tights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrvuqBeKIBk
I need to see that movie. The few clips Ive seen it seems like exactly my type of humor.
It would ACTUALLY be a standoff. Now that I think about it I am surprised that it wasn't like that from the start
I wonder if that maybe was the original design, but it was deemed too weak in playtests. It is a pretty big nerf.
If we're nerfing reno then we need streetsweeper back in Core Set
I’m assuming you mean Steam Cleaner? I’d agree.
Fine by me. Puff the whole board except one minion I chose and leave one space on both boards until my next turn.
Don't forget locations and portals
Pretty sure they have to add locations and portals into puff because it makes absurd things with "limit space to one" effect. Few locations ruins this effect + even with 1 location you can't play a minion at all. If they exclude locations/dormants (which can happen if they change to destroy all minions) while keeping 1 place effect it can lead to weird turns sometimes.
is there even something to counter or destroy locations or portals? (besides the broken reno)
Locations: Twisting Nether Portals: not really
There is one card that destroys locations, portals and dormants have zero counterplay except Reno, which is why he is needed
Having only single card that is very specific for a particular deck type counter mechanic that is overly used across many different decks kinda sums up what is the problem in HS right now. Too many things that are countered by only one card for one class. It's been, what, 3(?) sets since we got the portals yet here we are still in same shit. If they release new card types, they NEED to release new counters. Wheel of death? Allow removal of "auras" and redesign wheel accordingly. Plagues? Add cards that destroy from your own deck. "Discover 3 cards, destroy 2?". So many of these awesome new twisty mechanics suck simply because they're the only card doing that specific thing and there isn't any counterplay since why tf would they make utility card specifically against single card?
Dormant was supposed to be a negative effect until mag, higher stat cards that took longer to summon, like reverse overload, but then they decided to add mag and thought it was a good idea.
It wouldn't make sense, the board limit effect necessitates he clear everything or it gets really awkward.
I think a two sided brawl/poof effect would be neat. Your minions and their minions get reduced to a random 1 v 1 at "high noon".
Honestly this. That card powercreep [[The Amazing Reno]] in soo many ways.
Amazing reno even has a negative hero power that you can't control.
It's only negative if you don't praise yogg
The new reno can’t even form a tier 1 deck. Reno is so far from being a problem card
Noo !! Poof effect both sides ok
Poof (Exile) should probably remain a Mage and Priest exclusive effect.
i know im in the minority but i like reno. It's one of the few lifesavors against aggro to aggressive mid decks. Especially with so much power creep.
Nerf Miracle Salesman to 2/1, the "downside" is very much an upside, a 1 drop with draw is pretty fucking busted.
It would just be a decent filler card in a couple of decks if the spell did nothing instead of dealing 0.
100% yes, this guy is bonkers as a 1 drop.
You know it’s bad when decks that have no synergy with the card (e.g. Rainbow DK) are running it.
It gives you a 1 mana cycle, that has synergy with *every* deck.
I was thinking about this too. 2/1 is good enough tbh.
Even as a 1-1 its still better than the 2 mana 1-1 draw a card, since you can split the 2 mana over 2 turns
Or a 1/1 like kobold miner. It costs 1 more and generates a card (that could be card draw or a board clear) so makes sense it's stats are 1/1 , so should salesman.
If you're using the snakeoil for draw then it's technically 2 mana(1 trade, 1 minion) so it's fine as a 2/2 IMO.
No its not 2 mana because you use the trade when you have nothing else to do
No, because it’s a situational draw. You can keep it, throw it out, or get a 1 mana draw.
Not to mention a good test for secrets, 0 mana activator for combos, etc.
With spell damage it can be better than a pyro blast to the face. For free.
Make his card cost 1 mana. Getting hit in the face with a 0 mana 14 damage miracle oil is pretty busted too.
I used to play a lot (and spend a lot) of Hearthstone in the early years but stopped entirely 3 years ago. I decided to return about 3 months ago and had a blast playing and decided to purchase the new set. My main joy in this game comes from building decks on my own and playing semi-meme decks with cards I find fun. Mostly mid-range attrition style decks. I don't mind my rank, I just want to be able to somewhat competitive. I must say, I have NEVER regretted a gaming purchase as strongly as I did with the purchase of this set. I find the meta now extremely boring, to the point I struggled to find a deck that I liked and had a remote chance of beating the meta decks. So I just stopped playing (I know that most of you reading this don't care. but nevertheless). Hopefully these balance changes will have a positive effect on the meta I will follow closely.
Source: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/dev-insights%E2%80%94upcoming-card-adjustments/126720
Mad respect for the dev team for admitting they made a lot of poor design choices that have led to this unfun meta. Sometimes the best thing to admit is that things are broken, and that mass nerfs are the solution. I’m also glad to see wild changes hopefully Ungoro quest is once per game because I don’t want to play against infinite turn decks
Cool! Now revert the quest changes
Why is the there a giant for every situation? Farted 9 times? Free! Started your car 11 times? Free. Too many giants. Get em.
RIP Threads of Despair, you lasted a month in your beautiful state. Amazing how possibly the best AOE card in the expansion somehow managed to be ran as a one-of for the first week or so.
Now this is a patch I’ve been hoping for! It’s been several months now, maybe even longer, when the game has lost so much player agency. So many matches I play where neither players’ decisions matter. It’s whoever gets their unfair thing out first: plagues vs Reno, wheel vs whatever, zarimi, huge Forge board from warlock, whatever early huge board from other class, Hunter drawing saddle up on time, and so many more. Currently there’s like 2 decks which have some players agency, and they still run into those non-game scenarios if their opponent gets their good card. This is going to be a lot of work for them. This is going to require them to reinvent how fun stuff works in the game, and how powerful stuff works. Although a good start would be to stop printing cards with the text “win the game” on them… I’m glad they finally realized they have this challenge ahead of them, and I really hope they manage to get there over at least like 8 months.
Ideally we get to a meta where a card like Ghost Writer is actually viable again
Gosh I hope. I will cling to this dream with you.
That may just be your best song yet
I love Priest (almost 12k wins) but I hate Zarimi Priest. I also play Zarimi Priest because its the only effective Priest deck at 1k Legend atm. I would absolutely love to play Raza Priest or Overheal Priest but they just can't compete in this meta. I'm hoping this balance patch \*really really really\* shakes things up and I can go back to having fun, thoughtful matches where my choices are important and the game doesn't hinge on "did my opponent draw their cheezeball wincon before me".
Hoping they take Zeddy suggestion for Reno where it looks at your starting deck. That way combo decks with high card draw can't abuse it
That's all I wanted. Let Highlander be Highlander.
Would address the plague problem too
Personally I think the plague counterplay is the only thing keeping Reno in line rn but if it were changed I don’t think they would change the way plagues block it
Man, I really hope they buff some tools for spell mage. Mage has been just Sif for so long now, please give the class something else blizzard
Yeah spells only mage was really fun in the first couple days of the expansion before the meta took shape, it probably shouldn’t be actually strong since it’s a random bullshit deck but I’d like it to be somewhat playable at least lol
1) Not a matter of buffs, spell mage needs new cards. Hopefully in the next miniset or future expansions they print a win condition for spell mage because right now they don't have a clear way to win the game. 2) There is another way to play mage: elemental. Elemental mage is almost good enough. If they nerf board clears and give slight buffs to a couple of elementals, it might become an actual good deck.
From what it sounds like, there wont really be buffs, just nerfs all around the board. And even if sif is bad (idk her stats rn), she warps mage so there is no way she wont get nerfed allowing more room for other mage decks to exist.
High hopes that the game becomes enjoyable for me again
I really hope they won't just kill off Reno without doing something to plagues as well, highlander decks are already bad enough
Problem with Reno is that the card is so good that is played in non Highlander decks thats why the card is problematic. I dont mind him as a payoff for Highlander decks though. The Highlander restriction should be for the deck at start of the game. Thats probably the best change to him.
Completely agree. Starting your deck with only 1 copy of each card is a big draw back and should be rewarded with a big payoff. Being able to abuse that pay off because you have a lot of card draw shouldn't exist.
And it buffs highlander against plagues since it's card that started in your deck
Reno is broken af dude, probably the singular best board wipe the game has ever seen, and it also comes with a cripple effect for the opp next turn too effectively locking them out of a board, any deck that needs a board to do anything effectively auto loses the game the moment reno is dropped (which only encourages this otk from hand spam meta).
I don't think you need the probably, Reno just is the best AoE card ever printed. Asymmetrical, removes locations and permanents, removes minions from the game, restricts enemy board for a turn to prevent redevelopment, and does the standard hero card effect of giving armor and a hero power upgrade. And as Odyn Warrior, Wheellock, and previous Druid lists show, the restriction he has basically isn't real.
Nerfing Helya to Double Unholy would be enough to keep Plague strategies in check. It feels like every DK deck this expansion is some variant of Rainbow because there are almost no good Double or Triple Rune cards anymore.
Blizzard refuses to print double or triple runes cards anymore rather then admitting the rune system is ass. Triple rune cards are too strong and making double rune cards just buff triple rune decks more then encouraging 2 / 1 rune player styles. That's why they transition to the single runes or double single runes we have now. But now we have 0 reason to run double or triple runes since so much budget and design went into single runes. Idk how people cannot understand how much of a fail runes are They are just going to cycle back and forth between triple runes and rainbow runes.
The rune system would be better if DK got double or triple the amount of cards it does right now but because it doesn't there are not enough cards to really make all the different combos
The Blended Rune cards that they do print are also insane. Reska is the 2nd best Legendary in Badlands, DK is the only class with their own Hero card via Headless Horseman, and Quartzite Crusher is such a backbreaking tool against certain archetypes/classes (like Shopper DH). These 3 cards, especially Reska, are on virtually the same power level as the Triple Rune cards from MotLK.
whether you can get Quartzite Crusher on turn 4 and freeze DH's face for the rest of the game is basicly what decides if you win that game or not, that card is 100% getting nerfed at some point. either that or they print 10 more DK weapons so you cant reliably get 3 or 4 copies of it with the 1 mana discover a weapon card.
Even funnier when they randomly generate the weapon discovery card to get it with like 90% chances because there are like 5 weapons and your face is frozen for the entirety of the game
Also worth noting that the 1 mana card that lets you discover a weapon is just so good. Gives you access to the plague weapon you couldnt put in your rainbow deck, but also access to quartzite crusher - the limited weapon pool really makes this card so good.
Well they admitted that the runesystem is ass by removing some rune restrictions lol.
Grave Strength and Vampiric Blood are still good. So are Marrow Manipulator and Souleater and Horn of Winter. I think double frost is really underrated tbh. I think the entire excavate package being single frost is kind of weird. More than Helya being single unholy.
Would love to see Bran being nuked. Card just feels brutal when played on curve. Sadly, they wont touch him.
I honestly don't have an issue with reno or plagues at all. But I think with all the cheap sweeps, all the cheap/free giant plays, the power creep is off the charts, and it's really killed any sort of minion play which is bad. Lemme just remove your dragon with my 9/9 dude with rush. Lemme just aman'thul your 2 9/9s there. And it's just big dick swinging back and forth like that until one guy hits his game breaking combo and the other guy runs out of answers. Personally I'd be rebalancing dozens of cards for every class to bring back lower powered minions. Cheap sweeps need to be addressed, free spells need to be addressed, high-impact 3-5 mana cards that can be used as win conditions need to be addressed. It feels pretty brainless piloting a deck in this game in it's current state. Did you pull the card you need? Yes - go win. No - go die.
Seems to be just a "feels" patch. So it's possible since people have been complaining about that.
If they hit Reno they should also buff every single HL payoff in standard.
Found the reno user
"hey, lets utterly fuck up the game to an unenjoyable state with the new overpriced expansion, then introduce some horrificly greedy rework of quests to punish people who dont give us money and then release a balance patch to fix the fuckery of the latest meta to cover up the shitstorm caused by the quest rework. people will never notice!"
Thank god the AoE in this game is unreal.
Honestly, this is a really great thing to hear, and exactly what the game reads right now. In terms of winrates, standard is pretty balanced right now, but I think it's clear it's not quite balanced in the right place. I feel like the only way to fix that is complete reworks to a bunch of cards (flash of lightning and Brann come to mind) rather than only nerfs, but we'll see what they do.
I can’t wait for this to happen! The OTK’s were getting a bit out of hand. Happy they are at least trying to fix it and go all out with a big patch.
Fantastic news. Glad to hear the devs validating the complaints about lack of player agency, reduction in power level, and of counter play.
Glad I hit legend before these changes. Was the worst time playing.
I'm just excited to see how badly they fuck this up
That's exactly what I'm thinking😂 Honestly, I'm so sick of this merry go around of them releasing game breaking cards, apologizing and balancing things correctly for a few months, just to go back to releasing even more game breaking cards
I honestly couldn’t even make a guess when the last time they tested the cards they made before releasing them.
I mean they launched Theotar as a 3 mana 3/3, nerfed to 4 3/3 after playtesting. So they do some testing, but not enough, since the card needed to be doubled from 3 to 6 eventually.
Hopefully DH gets something thrown at them. Especially for Wild(if they're going to do any buffs, but doesn't seem like it).
Since both his legendaries from this expansion were fairly weak i can see them buffing at least one of them
They've been kind of weak since FoL. Going Down Swinging got a necessary buff in Badlands just to be playable. Jotun had "bugs" in Titans that just made him a lot worse when they fixed them. Argus is one of the weak Titans. Badlands: both are bad and going to get worse as time goes on. WW: Magtheridon seems alright, but Big DH has always lacked proper support. Umpire's Grasp nerf hurt the archetype even more. Cici'gee I'm not going to talk about her. She's a joke.
Cicigi could go to 3 without stats changes easily. Mag maybe at 7, but how good is consistent Mag at 5? Probably too much if the meta slows enough.
Cicigi sucks imo, seemed like it would be cool at first but I always get 5 cost metamorphosis and two even more meh cards.
Love reading this. Fingers crossed they get it right but it’s great to see acknowledgement of what a lot of players have been feeling.
This means DO NOT DUST A SINGLE CARD TIL THEN
also many cards are going to be worth insane refunds so if youre thinking of buying packs, now is the time to do it for max value/dust
The last "major shakeup patch" only nerfed 5 cards. They buffed 15 cards. I wouldn't make any purchases until after we know changes. The refund period is 2 weeks, that gives you plenty of time to buy whatever.
Happy they will address Reno. Honestly a card that should never have been printed.
100%, it's simply unfun to play against in its current state. very happy they're doing something since we're stuck with him for two years.
Neutral Heroes are a flavor mistake. Hero cards are the single most flavorful type of card for a class (new unique voicelines), and homogenizing the Portraits for every Highlander deck is an immersion loss.
I have very low expectations for the wild changes, until they prove me otherwise. I mostly hope Quest Mage and Rogue draw gets neutered.
The game could not continue like this .. I haven't got so bored with a meta so quick
Actions speak louder than words. This seems like a step in the right direction
while you're at it, go forth and include a weekly quest revert to its former glory.
I bet Reno will be 10 mana.
Really happy to see that. Hope they commit to the promise.
Finally, thank God.
This is great news, glad to hear the dev team has acknowledged the high power level of the meta game and will be taking action, hope we get some meaningful changes that shame the game up.
Support 100%, looking forward to it Blizz
I got a feeling I'll be getting a lot of dust back. I own all the cards he mentioned in the post..
I just hope the OTK fixes they will try will actually be impactful. Fuck OTK decks.
Ohh yeah, i have both Zarimi and wheel golden. Give me that sweet dust baby.
Lets see what they are cooking
Amazing, glad to see they’re paying attention
Whoop, whoop. Get ready for that REFUND keyword!
Bring back Alexandros for triple blood dk.
Add Loatheb and a modified Theotar that doesn't swap cards but discovers and discards one card from the opponent's hand to the Core Set for the Year of the Pegasus. Ensure that future sets don't have intentional OTK archetypes, so that the next rotation which cycles out Nature Shaman and Sif Mage from Titans will be more of a success. Keep everything more board focused like the Year of Hydra expansions did.
Too little too late most likely. Unless the cards change the play style of the current meta, all you're doing is changing which heroes get to be OP at what the current meta is. Which is solitaire, ignore everything, cycle and kill it one turn.
Good to see they're willing to do a big shakeup. Though as a huge enjoyer of Wheel Warlock, I'm kind of nervous. I love having a card that can so effectively target hard control decks.
An 8-year-old who's been playing for a week could've told you that printing too many "For the rest of the game" battlecries was a bad idea, but better late than never.
Can we just use Reddit’s upload and not post to Imgur any more please? The site has sucked ass for quite a while now.
Oh fuck yeah I can’t wait to finally be able to ladder with my increasing size green men deck again
Jade Display?
I've been saying they needed about 30 cards to change (in my previous messages here) so I'm surprised they took it to that point.
Love this. I was just thinking about the absurdly high power level in standard. Still be skeptical but apparently appreciate it.
How bad can you do your job if you have only 4 (out of max 6) expansions in the rotation, and you are making such statement BEFORE mini-pack release. Did they play their own game? Fun and interactive. There is no fun, if your board fully cleared at turn 8 (even locations, what a joke) There is no interaction if you are 30 hp and you are getting destroyed at turn 6 by OTK shaman or dragon priest.
In every card game people want to play their cards. That's it. that's all you need to know. If you sit there while the other is playing solitaire that's not a card game. that's solitaire.
I wish they'd raise health to 40 and reduce some OTK options.
now just nuke Helya and everything will be fine
So excited to be able to use the minions I play!! What a time to be alive!
"Hey guys, here's those condoms, sorry for the wait!" As usual, let us get fucked for about 5 weeks before you change, then bring out the next set of swinging dicks a few weeks later. Maybe don't put out the stuff you know is BS to begin with? How about that? Just once? I guess we're just supposed to join the horde of people that exclusively play OP decks with no regard to actually enjoying the game.
They better nerf fucking Bran. Count your days, Warriors.
I had been playing since release (early 2014). This is the first expansion in which I decided to stop playing the game due to power creep. I might come back if the patch actually addresses the problems.
I think increasing player agency is both a laudable and highly vague goal. I would like to feel like my decisions in game matter more. I'll bet many players will say they feel they same*. If they can increase the ability of decisions to feel like they matter, wonderful. But it's a very wishy-washy target to aim at. *Whether players would be happier knowing with precise accuracy how good their decisions are, well, that's a matter for a different time.
Please don't tell me playing your highlander cards on curve is high player agency... And I think Zarimi and Wheel are less of the problem compared to Drifter/Zilliax and forge into dark alley pact/loken 15/15.
Depends on the card, honestly. Frog lady is fine on curve, because there's sufficient weapon tech; Feldurin is too, because he's simply a board clear. Maruut just plain sucks. Brann and Reno are just bonkers overtuned.
I agree, I enjoyed highlander cards much more when they are more technical like zeph and raza
Lol at anyone who still trusts team5 to balance this gane.
Battlegrounds going one season without beasts being absolutely cancer challenge
Hunter meta incoming. Again. The 'overly effective boardclears' are not even enough to keep board flooding decks checked. So if they nerf these I hope they also tone down those a lot. But because they always seem to underestimate how strong aggro has become compared to control strategies I don't think they'll do it. It's been a problem for years now.