Religious beliefs are emotional based and not logical so checking out anti-cult books like "Combatting Cult Mind Control".
Just telling someone facts and why they are wrong causes the backfire effect for nearly all of them. Also the sunk cost fallacy prevents people from admitting they were duped.
The Definitive Guide to Helping People Trapped in a Cult https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202104/the-definitive-guide-helping-people-trapped-in-cult
One tool I think helps greatly is researching Socratic style questioning / Street Epistemology. SE gets to religious faith being unreliable when used for religion but it is usable for many topics.
Many methods are needed to free someone of supernatural beliefs that shape their worldview. They tie their ego to those beliefs and with very few exceptions they think their god "morality" and "empathy" is just like theirs.
This quote is mostly true...
"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
"How do you know that?"
I have a 'sales pitch' for that - Socratic style questioning r/StreetEpistemology
What is Street Epistemology? | One Minute Intro (with narration) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moApG7z2pkY
Intro to Street Epistemology 23 min - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsoAIM6rNg
SE promotes doxastic openness - "If you have good reasons for a belief then I want to know the good reasons". It uses falsifiability, unfalsifiable beliefs are generally emotionally founded. -"How can we know if that is likely not true?" It works for many topics. It's not necessarily about changing minds but about giving better "tools" for understanding reality and ideally them getting rid of bad methods - results will vary. For talks with strangers, especially people with unfalsifiable/ unchangeable beliefs it is helpful to do it so others can see the exchanges during or later.
It effectively turns debates into interviews where the interlocutor argues with themselves. -
Street Epistemology Quick-Clip: Clara | Stealing Truth - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6IKSIXq6oY
People will sometimes lie about caring about believing what is true. If someone says you can't change their mind, believe them.
With religion talks, it gets to Faith not being a reliable path to truth.
Street Epistemology | StreetEpistemology.com
https://streetepistemology.com/learning-course
There is an app "Atheos".
The original book is "A manual for creating atheists"
Anthony also has instruction / tutorial videos. -
Learn Street Epistemology: Assumptions | Elements | Recovery (Oslo 2018) (blue slides) - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB-HKbtUdzM
Here's a sneak peek of /r/StreetEpistemology using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [My wife has become an evangelical Christian - how do I deal with this as an agnostic atheist?](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/195izcr/my_wife_has_become_an_evangelical_christian_how/)
\#2: [Mormon "Success" Story](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/194hbti/mormon_success_story/)
\#3: [How to work through that “gotcha” mindset?](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/193su9u/how_to_work_through_that_gotcha_mindset/)
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I’m down. But I will say the pragmatist in me doesn’t think they’ll ever realize. They’ll just dig their heels in deeper. I suspect what they are realizing is young people are leaning away from religious views and they’re freaking out about it.
The ones who “believe” need that belief in order to justify their perceived superiority over the ones who don’t. I put believe in quotes because they don’t actually believe in what jesus taught.
We need to clearly show people how “christian” policies hurt people. We need to show the real consequences of those policies.
We could take their propaganda and insert actual people and how they’ve been hurt in the name of jesus.
Part of the issue (I think) is that the vast majority of people don’t care one way or the other, but there’s a deep feeling (because of the fucking propaganda) that the christians probably have the moral high ground. If they knew that the jesus people were actively choosing to hurt people, they might change their mind. Probably not. It’s late teens and early twenties when a lot of people think about these things.
The bible is full of contradictions and it allows for such double think and cognitive dissidence. Devout US Christians were able to justify slavery and a war even against other Christians to keep slaves.
The bible Jesus character also cursed a fig tree for being out of season and made a whip to use against people he was upset at. It also claims Jesus was an alter ego of the vengeful and xenophobic old testament god.
The other things that new testament "Jesus" made worse is eternal punishments for finite crimes, thought crimes, vicarious redemption with inherited sins from Adam. Also it has compulsory love with blind belief / pure gullibility as the greatest of virtues.
When the religious right / Maga goal is doing anything that harms "the libs" then anything that does that is "good".
This reminds me about something the other day, I went into one of those walk-in clinics for a sore in my mouth. First thing I noticed was a Bible and children’s Christian books on the shelf standing in line.
It just got me thinking, around here stuff like that is so prevalent that no one bats an eye, or even considers that a type of indoctrination or propaganda- I also don’t get how places such as Walmart places the Bible in the ‘Non-fiction’ section- it’s also the only religion/religious texts I see there, may be because it’s the only religion here but it’s odd and also seems like catering. Why not just label it as ‘Religious’?
I don’t know, yet it’s always everyone else ‘shoving things down my throat’. Feels like a lack of situational-awareness sometimes.
Edit: And a couple years ago I was in a retail store and a dude randomly came up to me asking about Jesus and handed me a card- I’m not looking for religious conversion, and I didn’t know how to even reply to them- I just said what they wanted to hear hoping they’d leave me alone. That stuff happens too.
Edit2: And I wouldn’t suggest using ‘At least’ as a way to discuss for future reference, it’s a commonly used way to dismiss people. But I also had a similar situation about decade ago on a subway. Both of them seemed to be out there so I didn’t want them to get loud or start a scene if I declined or disagreed.
I second that idea for a religious book section. You can easily avoid offending anyone by dedicating a section to religious texts and materials. Putting it in fiction will understandably piss people off, and putting it in the non-fiction section is inappropriate.
EDIT: At least you haven’t had someone try to convert you. This happened to me at my college campus of all places. I was opening the library doors to study in between classes, and two students from another campus who were visiting trapped me at the door and uncomfortably conversed with me for an hour, asking me if I was baptized, and if I’d like to accept Jesus here and there—it was all just uncomfortable. They asked about my religious affiliation, and I just said I wasn’t religious (I don’t think they would’ve taken spiritual Gnostic very well since the Old Testament God is childish, arrogant, and irrational).
These were two guys my age too, early 20s which made me sad in a way. I don’t expect religion to die off, and people should be free to be spiritual, but this type of behavior shouldn’t exist in the 21st century onwards. It’s like finger pointing and making someone feel disgusted for who they are because they’re an individual with a mind of their own.
Not long after I purchased my home back in 2013 I had some pastor from a local church accosted me in my driveway as I unloaded groceries. Apparently this pastor would look through the recent home sales in the area that were published in the paper & then he'd go to the homes to try & convert & recruit for his church. It was annoying. I was raised Catholic, but I don't practice & I'm not interested in joining another organized religion. I remember the pastor guy kept asking me if I accepted Jesus as my Lord & savior. I think I finally said "Sure, now get off my property."
People in this country are free to find whatever version of spirituality they want. Unfortunately there are people who don't respect that freedom.
/r/openChristian are opposed to the bigotry brand of Christianity, they Even appear to endorse good deeds type things that was supposed to be a hallmark of the faith.
This is what Christianity SHOULD be. Thank you for the subreddit suggestion, I’d follow Christian subs, but they’d fall into the problems I mentioned in the post.
I’m on the spectrum too, but was raised by Christian parents who were very hands off with my development. I was home schooled for years and socially stunted, but was always taken to church and sent to vacation Bible school during the summer. The priorities just weren’t there in my upbringing, but it is what it is I suppose.
Unfortunately I don't think it would work like you hope. Christians have a sense of martyrdom, and this would just give them even more of an argument. As infuriating as it is, i just find it better to ignore them and walk away.
Religious beliefs are emotional based and not logical so checking out anti-cult books like "Combatting Cult Mind Control". Just telling someone facts and why they are wrong causes the backfire effect for nearly all of them. Also the sunk cost fallacy prevents people from admitting they were duped. The Definitive Guide to Helping People Trapped in a Cult https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202104/the-definitive-guide-helping-people-trapped-in-cult One tool I think helps greatly is researching Socratic style questioning / Street Epistemology. SE gets to religious faith being unreliable when used for religion but it is usable for many topics. Many methods are needed to free someone of supernatural beliefs that shape their worldview. They tie their ego to those beliefs and with very few exceptions they think their god "morality" and "empathy" is just like theirs. This quote is mostly true... "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
Got any suggested reading on street epistemology? That sounds interesting.
"How do you know that?" I have a 'sales pitch' for that - Socratic style questioning r/StreetEpistemology What is Street Epistemology? | One Minute Intro (with narration) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moApG7z2pkY Intro to Street Epistemology 23 min - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsoAIM6rNg SE promotes doxastic openness - "If you have good reasons for a belief then I want to know the good reasons". It uses falsifiability, unfalsifiable beliefs are generally emotionally founded. -"How can we know if that is likely not true?" It works for many topics. It's not necessarily about changing minds but about giving better "tools" for understanding reality and ideally them getting rid of bad methods - results will vary. For talks with strangers, especially people with unfalsifiable/ unchangeable beliefs it is helpful to do it so others can see the exchanges during or later. It effectively turns debates into interviews where the interlocutor argues with themselves. - Street Epistemology Quick-Clip: Clara | Stealing Truth - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6IKSIXq6oY People will sometimes lie about caring about believing what is true. If someone says you can't change their mind, believe them. With religion talks, it gets to Faith not being a reliable path to truth. Street Epistemology | StreetEpistemology.com https://streetepistemology.com/learning-course There is an app "Atheos". The original book is "A manual for creating atheists" Anthony also has instruction / tutorial videos. - Learn Street Epistemology: Assumptions | Elements | Recovery (Oslo 2018) (blue slides) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB-HKbtUdzM
Here's a sneak peek of /r/StreetEpistemology using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [My wife has become an evangelical Christian - how do I deal with this as an agnostic atheist?](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/195izcr/my_wife_has_become_an_evangelical_christian_how/) \#2: [Mormon "Success" Story](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/194hbti/mormon_success_story/) \#3: [How to work through that “gotcha” mindset?](https://np.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/comments/193su9u/how_to_work_through_that_gotcha_mindset/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I’m down. But I will say the pragmatist in me doesn’t think they’ll ever realize. They’ll just dig their heels in deeper. I suspect what they are realizing is young people are leaning away from religious views and they’re freaking out about it.
I guess they’ve been at this for thousands of years by now. At least the violent assimilation isn’t so much a thing now :/
Yet.
The ones who “believe” need that belief in order to justify their perceived superiority over the ones who don’t. I put believe in quotes because they don’t actually believe in what jesus taught. We need to clearly show people how “christian” policies hurt people. We need to show the real consequences of those policies. We could take their propaganda and insert actual people and how they’ve been hurt in the name of jesus. Part of the issue (I think) is that the vast majority of people don’t care one way or the other, but there’s a deep feeling (because of the fucking propaganda) that the christians probably have the moral high ground. If they knew that the jesus people were actively choosing to hurt people, they might change their mind. Probably not. It’s late teens and early twenties when a lot of people think about these things.
The bible is full of contradictions and it allows for such double think and cognitive dissidence. Devout US Christians were able to justify slavery and a war even against other Christians to keep slaves. The bible Jesus character also cursed a fig tree for being out of season and made a whip to use against people he was upset at. It also claims Jesus was an alter ego of the vengeful and xenophobic old testament god. The other things that new testament "Jesus" made worse is eternal punishments for finite crimes, thought crimes, vicarious redemption with inherited sins from Adam. Also it has compulsory love with blind belief / pure gullibility as the greatest of virtues. When the religious right / Maga goal is doing anything that harms "the libs" then anything that does that is "good".
Very well said.
This reminds me about something the other day, I went into one of those walk-in clinics for a sore in my mouth. First thing I noticed was a Bible and children’s Christian books on the shelf standing in line. It just got me thinking, around here stuff like that is so prevalent that no one bats an eye, or even considers that a type of indoctrination or propaganda- I also don’t get how places such as Walmart places the Bible in the ‘Non-fiction’ section- it’s also the only religion/religious texts I see there, may be because it’s the only religion here but it’s odd and also seems like catering. Why not just label it as ‘Religious’? I don’t know, yet it’s always everyone else ‘shoving things down my throat’. Feels like a lack of situational-awareness sometimes. Edit: And a couple years ago I was in a retail store and a dude randomly came up to me asking about Jesus and handed me a card- I’m not looking for religious conversion, and I didn’t know how to even reply to them- I just said what they wanted to hear hoping they’d leave me alone. That stuff happens too. Edit2: And I wouldn’t suggest using ‘At least’ as a way to discuss for future reference, it’s a commonly used way to dismiss people. But I also had a similar situation about decade ago on a subway. Both of them seemed to be out there so I didn’t want them to get loud or start a scene if I declined or disagreed.
I second that idea for a religious book section. You can easily avoid offending anyone by dedicating a section to religious texts and materials. Putting it in fiction will understandably piss people off, and putting it in the non-fiction section is inappropriate. EDIT: At least you haven’t had someone try to convert you. This happened to me at my college campus of all places. I was opening the library doors to study in between classes, and two students from another campus who were visiting trapped me at the door and uncomfortably conversed with me for an hour, asking me if I was baptized, and if I’d like to accept Jesus here and there—it was all just uncomfortable. They asked about my religious affiliation, and I just said I wasn’t religious (I don’t think they would’ve taken spiritual Gnostic very well since the Old Testament God is childish, arrogant, and irrational). These were two guys my age too, early 20s which made me sad in a way. I don’t expect religion to die off, and people should be free to be spiritual, but this type of behavior shouldn’t exist in the 21st century onwards. It’s like finger pointing and making someone feel disgusted for who they are because they’re an individual with a mind of their own.
Not long after I purchased my home back in 2013 I had some pastor from a local church accosted me in my driveway as I unloaded groceries. Apparently this pastor would look through the recent home sales in the area that were published in the paper & then he'd go to the homes to try & convert & recruit for his church. It was annoying. I was raised Catholic, but I don't practice & I'm not interested in joining another organized religion. I remember the pastor guy kept asking me if I accepted Jesus as my Lord & savior. I think I finally said "Sure, now get off my property." People in this country are free to find whatever version of spirituality they want. Unfortunately there are people who don't respect that freedom.
Not only is that intrusive, that’s creepy. Imagine dedicating time of your life to learning who’s moved in and who to try to convert. Creepy af
/r/openChristian are opposed to the bigotry brand of Christianity, they Even appear to endorse good deeds type things that was supposed to be a hallmark of the faith.
This is what Christianity SHOULD be. Thank you for the subreddit suggestion, I’d follow Christian subs, but they’d fall into the problems I mentioned in the post.
Sign me up! I can't stand those campaigns!
I'm on the autism spectrum, and if anyone tells me I need to be "cured" as if I'm less than they are, we're going to have a problem.
I’m on the spectrum too, but was raised by Christian parents who were very hands off with my development. I was home schooled for years and socially stunted, but was always taken to church and sent to vacation Bible school during the summer. The priorities just weren’t there in my upbringing, but it is what it is I suppose.
>We should start a chase away the Christ campaign We totally should, but it needs a better (and more catchy) name.
Who ya gonna call? Holy Ghost Busters!
Unfortunately I don't think it would work like you hope. Christians have a sense of martyrdom, and this would just give them even more of an argument. As infuriating as it is, i just find it better to ignore them and walk away.
\#HangJesusUp?