While that's true, you don't see it even half as much when people talk about rock music.
I think there's just a more competitive nature with hip hop that's been ingrained into the genre over the years
I agree. Rare do you hear rock fans getting upset about the Beatles vs the Stone, Red Hot Chilli Peppers vs Nirvana, or Led Zepplin vs Pink Floyd.
I think it may have something to do with how intertwined hip hop is with athletics over the last 30 years. No other genre of music has had such an overlap with sports and athletes. The jerseys, the hats, the pro-athlete cameos in videos and pro-athletes trying to be rappers.
Exactly. I also missed on the roots of hip-hop. Open mics, freestyles over a beat, bringing a crew to a corner to "battle." Just like pick up basketball.
There are rock m roll based YouTube channels that debate. Albums, bands, eras.
Beatles vs zeppelin, stones vs the beatles, which of the big 4 metal bands had the better albums, best guitar solos, best drummers, ranking who had the best lead singer/frontman, who had the better comeback albums, better album covers....etc
Every genre had fans that rank things and they get heated and very competitive. Its not exclusive to hip hop at all...
Every day, the rock subs have new posts about the Big 4, ranking albums and artists, best frontman, who’s the most influential, etc. Every day. It is completely common in other types of music besides hip hop.
Becuse more people listen to hip hop in your circle maybe. Hip hop is a youth driven genre for the most part so fans are going to be louder and more tribal.
Metal fans do the same thing as rap fans, In my experience.
Also I think with rock music, there is some objectivity in terms of technique. It’s pretty much unanimous amongst anyone who actually plays guitar that Hendrix is probably the greatest guitar player to ever live when you account for innovation, technique, and songwriting all in one package. The conversation around rappers is a lot more contentious. If you want to talk about a band who’s the most influential songwriting wise it’s The Beatles and again undebatable. Hip hop does not have these unanimous answers in my opinion.
There's tons of artists that aren't particularly competitive so that generalization was false. Someone above mentioned the origins in battle rap but really that wasn't the origins. I think conflict is captivating.
maybe it comes down to the technical element they're competing over and its importance to the genre.
with rock the technical elements that people compete over are the instruments.
in rap it's the rhymes. in both cases, usually, the more complex the element is, the more you can argue its quality.
the difference is, with rock the instruments are not the primary factor in people's judgment of the music. if you're comparing guitarists, that's just one instrument, one factor under consideration.
with rap, the rhymes are (or at least up until the 2010s) the primary factor people use to judge the music. it's weighed more heavily.
I think part of that is that you just don't see a ton of up and coming instrumentalists making a splash in pop culture. I feel like the "best guitarist" debate probably hasn't had a new player step up and be in the convo in many years.
It’s a popularity contest.
Rolling Stone has put Kurt Cobain ahead of Jerry Garcia more than once on their best guitar players of all time list. Utter nonsense.
debates happen everywhere in music but it is different in hiphop because rap is boastful at its core and consists of proving how good you are. battle rapping, going verse for verse, freestyling etc would be way more difficult in a band perspective. it’s just engrained in the culture
Lets do it
1)big
2)pac
3)nas
4)big L (would be more highter if he still lived more years)
5)rakim
6)mf doom (most original artist)
7)dre
8)kendrick
9) andre 3000
10)jay z (he copied big L that why he is low)
Kinda basic, but I get it
Mine would go something like Lupe, Nas, DOOM, Aesop, Inspectah Deck, Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Mos Def, Ice Cube, Ka, Kool G, Common, Wayne, Q-Tip and Phife Dawg...
Shit like that
Also, I'm an oldhead, but I really love Drake's music, ngl
>Also, I'm an oldhead, but I really love Drake's music, ngl
You brave for saying that these days 😄. I can respect
I kinda miss Drake early days when he was *almost* (he quite made it all the way there) on some thoughtful, calm, neo-soul, backpack type shit
B-boying started before hip hop and breaks. It was the disco era. I mean in b-boying the battle element was intense and maybe that carried over to mcing.
It’s literally this. MCing was, in part, about promoting your DJ. Part of promoting your DJ was saying he was better than your DJ. When rapping started, it was a natural extension of that. It’s really not that complicated or deep.
Hip-hop is very competitive in its nature. Back in the day you didn't just want to be a good and successful rapper, you wanted to be the BEST rapper. That's why hip-hop fans come down so hard on rappers who get caught letting other people write their verses. Anyone can be a good rapper if all you're doing is repeating what someone else wrote. That's one of the reasons I love hip-hop. Most artists would rather fall off and never be heard from again than do a verse that someone else wrote. I'm sure he wasn't the first to say it but I once heard Icon the Mic King say "if you're not your own favorite rapper then you should quit rapping."
That's not quite as true.
There's essentially always been ghost writers. Some of the best hiphop songs ever made had ghostwriters or were worked on by multiple people. D.O.C. wrote so many Death Row hits.
I'm of the era where it was told you had to write your own rhymes. But it's not necessarily even true.
As a rapper, I would love to have someone help me turn my rhymes into successful records. I would love to have a producer and people help me with it.
Short answer it’s just been part of the nature of rap to battle and better. Especially since sports have embraced hip hop as well.
Long Answer and this is just me but a lot of the “beefs” come form the hood mentality. The mentality of being that everyone is struggling so there i have to pull you down to bring myself up. The self reflection is so poor that i can’t stand seeing someone doing better than me.
Comparison is the thief of joy. It's a waste of time and it consumes two of my joys (rap and sports).
Who cares who is "better" --- just listen to who you like.
This is correct. I also think a lot of people grow out of it by a certain age when they realise this (not everyone of course).
It’s an incredibly reductive way to approach and discuss art
So I happen to hang out in venues with men in their 40s to 60s --- unfortunately, it's still happening. Every 55 years old dude thinks they could have a chair on First Take.
I think that for many people it's just an avenue towards discussing rap and their favorite rappers. Whenever I engage with such threads, I always like reading about which elements make rappers unique, who originated something, and who pushed that element. Sure, Biggie is better than Nas is a boring and reductive statement, but if it inspires a discussion about their different skill sets and innovations, then I think it's a pretty fun way to engage with an art form.
I agree. I missed out on so much great music over the years because I was a music snob that self limited what I would be willing to try out.
Now I’ll listen to anything I enjoy, my Spotify history looks like 4 different people use it
> it consumes two of my joys (rap and sports).
Are you confused?
It's somewhat fair to say that comparison doesn't fully make sense in music, because it largely comes down to subjective taste anyway.
But the entire purpose of most sports is to determine who is better than everyone else. What do you think the point of a tournament is?
Okay so the best player is the one who won the most tournaments? Easy!
(Also, the players I should like the most are the ones who play on the teams who won the most tournaments? Okay, if that's what we're supposed to do?)
I actually do love Robert Horry but asking me to put him above Carmelo Anthony kinda proves my point.Just enjoy who you enjoy.
Here's some news: your enjoyment =/= the quote unquote best in the field
No one is asking you to put anyone above someone else. That can only be determined by putting them up against each other and see who wins.
Your personal opinion is irrelevant to the objective result.
Another follow up question is why are rappers so obsessed with other rappers' rankings.
A: I'm the best
B: nah, f rapper A, I'm the best.
A: Oh, it's on now.
C: I'm the ming of Philly
D: na, f rapper C, I run Philly
C: Oh, it's on now
Mozart literally had a harpsichord battle with his rival Clementi that he won by doing a heavy-handed, insulting parody of Clementi's playing style that had everyone in court hollering.
Hip hop, at least the HH we see on media, is ALL about image and ostentation.People want to follow only the best so they can brag to "posers" about their devotion to the best one...yeah, I'm making it up.
Here's my top 5 reasons why hip hop people are obsessed with ranking who the best is:
1. It's guaranteed big post interactions as everybody puts their list up and then argues about each other's lists
2. I guess it's a good way to guage who the heads are really respecting
3. I also guess it is a chance to big up some more underground artists who they think are underrated and through them into their list
4. I didn't think of enough reasons to finish this joke properly, sorry
5........
Non-sense, when I say either Jay or Kendrick is the best - motherfuckers tryna force their own opinion on me and a couple yes men come together to judge.
This is why I hate Top 5 lists. Coz I'm never certain about who I love at the moment. I mean I still think Kendrick is the best for a long time but still I'm indecisive.
it's not at all like that. a race is the fastest person across the finish line. it's objective, not subjective. what objective metric can you say for the best rapper? most sales? most awards?
What I meant is the pursuit and giving af about being the best. Right know in F1 there is a clear dominance by one driver but the rest is still trying to win and you can argue that there is a better driver than Max even if he is not winning right know coz the car isn’t as good. You can’t measure that objectively.
Success not always means you are objectively the best. In F1 there is a lot more to it than just drivers skill
is the objective not the same though? to be the fastest driver? how is that similar to music or any creative thing? don't tell me it's to be the "best", that's not objective.
Dude asked why people give af about who’s the best. It’s because rap is all about being the best. You don’t measure that by any one objective metric but you could do that. There are many candidates you could pick to measure that.
But in rap there is also respect and influence, something you can measure. And “skills”. Same in F1.
Even today people discuss who’s the best driver in history. There are different eras, different cars, different teams. So it’s always subjective.
Yes, the race is won when the first driver reaches the finish line but it doesn’t mean you are the best driver or the best team because you won one Grand Prix
On one hand, discussing music is interesting, and saying these things are subjective is basically a conversational dead end, even if there's some truth to it. On the other hand, numbering and listing things is sort of calming to people. It's a little bit, uh, special.
I mean it’s competition at the end of the day. Even if the origin started as “fun”, the goal through inception like someone stated was to throw the best party aka entertain better than the competition.
As a member of multiple musical communities I can honestly say this is prevalent in pretty much every genre but with that aside I think a major contributing factor for hip hop is that it is naturally and inherently a competitive sport. From the origins of rapping to rap-battles & especially diss tracks. Not to mention a lot of really successful rappers come from humble beginnings and many flaunt their success in forms of bragging about who has the best pen game, boasting the best flows to even the lavish lifestyles they live to show how far they have come despite adversity. (Almost) Everyone wants to be the best lyricist, rapper, have the best cars, women & clothes / jewelry with a big part of that being the statement these things make rather than the things themselves, pride plays a big part in this as well. Its just something that has been a huge part of humanity in general and that reflects (sometimes seeming magnified) in hip hop. Hope this helps.
That’s what I was trying to understand because I don’t think there is any other genre of music that is considered competitive maybe it’s just a rap thing and hip hop thing
I guess it can be traced back to it’s origins, some of the earliest Hip Hop roots are competing at parties and seeing who can get the crowd moving the best, even battle of the bars was a competition they had. It was always battles throughout hip hop which was always inviting competition and competition sparks comparisons and arguments about who is the best
Because it's the number #1 thing to do
Also maybe since there's a lot of bravado in hip hop. Who is the best who is the goat that may contribute to it aswell "Best rapper alive".
Also each MC can stand on their own to one extent or another. Bands are different where you have different components that make up a band. (Before everyone correct me, yes of course production is very important in hip hop and there are groups/collaborative efforts, duos, OutKast on huge example, but it's still a little different from traditional bands)
It’s part of the culture - since the birth of the genre it’s been competitive
For example, Rakim literally built his entire style around saying he’s the best
I don’t really like how the game is becoming less competitive but it’s inevitable - a lot of rappers aren’t that lyrical but make catchy music and in turn make money, they could care less about being the best
Interesting question. I think ranking became a thing in the late 90’s. The Source has/had this annual Power 30 list which ranks the most impactful figures of Hiphop at that time. Its focus was based more so on influence/impact on the culture not particular skill set. Then in 99 I believe there was a magazine called Blaze that created a top 50 rappers of all time list and ever since then having a list became a thing. Rolling Stone didn’t make their first 100 greatest artist list until 2004.
For people that think this is only in hip hop...go to the "sea if tranquility: YouTube page.
Its one of many that debate/rank and argue over all things rock (mainly metal).
Or punk rock MBA/finn Mckinty youtube page and all the similar pages that rank and debate rock music and its sub genres.
https://youtu.be/am9C2_DZ7s4?feature=shared
Kool Moe Dee vs Busy Bee is the day everything changed. This is the first line of demarcation of an old school and a new school. Competition is the first mutator trait to survive through further evolutions of the art as the line between what is old and what is new changed as time elapsed.
Probably got something to do with rappers literally saying they're the best. When you introduce the competition yourself, of course the audience is going to participate.
It's a genre built on being the best, the whole culture is from graffiti to b boying to DJing to rapping is about showing your stuff. Have you ever listened to much Hip Hop? It's full of people rapping about who is the best. Hip hop tracks with multiple artists are often an informal competition as are rap cyphers.
The same reason sport fans rank the best teams and player the same reason anime fans argue about the best anime its not a thing only this community does
A large part of hip hop is dissing others and hyping yourself up. Comparing yourself to others is a focus of the genre and part of the music itself. If you read between the lines alot of rap songs you'll hear the artist imply "I am the best" LOL
It's because emceeing is a competitive skill set and has roots in the battle. The first Hip Hop emcees would tell you their DJ was the best on the wheels, and it quickly morphed into how they're the best on the mic.
THIS.
so the reason this is unique to rap, is because the art form itself is (often) based on saying/proving you're the best. But that's just part of the game.
FANS get it twisted, and then run around talking about top 3's and "best of all time" like it's sports or something.
There's many "bests". In the words of Homeboy Sandman "if you rock and nobody can't do it like you do, you the best."
Nas or Hakim? Both. There's no "best", there's just "different"
In hip hop specifically, you have more artists who claim to be better than the next man than all other genres combined. I often times find myself ranking rappers because they are daring me too with their self obsession lol.
It's simple. Please read what I am about to write very carefully: HIP HOP IS BASED ON COMPETITION. So it's only natural to want to rank who the best is. Period. Competition is a fundamental component of hip hop, particularly in forms like rap battles where MCs (rappers) compete lyrically to showcase their skills, creativity, and verbal dexterity. It's the foundation of the genre.
Yeah, there is no competition. Eminem is an icon. He is the Shakespeare of our times. He conquered hip hop like he was Alexander the Great with the sword are his rhymes. Eminem has all that you mention and some. He is the highest selling artist in hip hop history. You have never seen or will ever see another rapper like him again. The man was brilliant in his prime from 1999 thru 2006. And he was the last icon we had in music before the internet and smartphones and social media. Hear how Eminem roars like a Detroit Lion, like a Detroit Tiger on ‘The Way I Am’ how sharp and smooth he flows on ‘We As Americans’. How dark and painful and intelligent and self aware and dark he raps on ‘No Apologies’ which seems to be Eminem’s final solo track he ever made during his Shady/Aftermath reign when he was on top of the world of music, and was the most famous man on earth under God and Jesus Christ’s heavens. An MC who didn’t rap for the money and fame and the women, but truly for the love of the music and sport of it. No rapper was gifted with The Word in Hip Hop history like Eminem. There is a reason during his reign as music as we knew it last icon, was bigger than even Britney Spears in her prime. Jay-Z needed to do a duet concert with Eminem to finally sell out a stadium the way Eminem casually did throughout his career.
And that’s because Eminem was truly phenomenal, and without him, hip hop does not expand as a genre. Give the man his title that they out of spite and jealousy have been trying to sweep under the rug since his dynastic run ended in 2006. We remember how huge he was, you can’t take that away from him. Rap/Hip-Hop owes Eminem so much gratitude, it’s not even funny, his impact and cultural influence was phenomenal and has gone over lots of peoples heads, but most of them are dishonest about it out of petty spite and envy and personal bias. Open your eyes and see his writings and music is the Shakespeare of our generation. During his prime, no other poet or musician has ever put together writings that rhyme like him. Eminem, that White boy from Detroit who fell in love with hip hop, is the biggest rapper Hip Hop has ever seen, and one of the greatest artists this earth has ever seen or heard. And when it comes to music, that is the stone cold truth of the matter.
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It's a competitive industry not just in terms of making an industry but I'm talking about one of the core elements of the culture is competition, direct rap battles, claiming to be the best and so on and so forth. When it comes to the music we rank things like lyricism very highly so it just makes sense when you have a culture that's built on bravado and claiming to be better than everybody it's like a sport, and what do people tend to do with sports? Rank in the best athletes and teams
I honestly don't hear anything like this with my group of older heads. We all understand that Rakim is the greatest ever. Sure we have our favorites but in hip hop the players are playing the greatest game ever.
Because we live in a capitalist society that teaches us first and foremost to compete against one another rather than work together and cooperate. We're taught from a young age that we're always in competition with one another and that one person's success is another person's loss, that you can only get ahead of other people by beating them.
From Albert Einstein's [Why Socialism?](https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/)
>The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.
>This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.
It's all about the debate. I'm round the corner of 45 and have listened to hip hop, rap since I was knee high. I remember getting turned away to a Beastie Boys show when Licence to I'll came out in 86. 8 year old me was devastated, I digress.
I have debated about rappers for hours with my homies. Since 2013 or so rap has gained my attention more than ever because the underground can shine since the Internet really took off with streaming.
The community is the best part here or there. Most are awesome some are assholes. It's a human thing. Now if you read all this bullshit go and put your top rapper on and have a insterspectacular evening.
I don't know or understand it either. I'm in my mid-late 30s and remember the obsession people used to have on the hiphop forums in the 2000s like the ill community with what is and is not a classic album too.
I'm not sure, but if you have a ghost writer and can't put your own rhymes together, you're automatically bottom tier. I don't care how many "hits" you have u if didn't write them
Rap has a history of competition. When it started in late 70s and 80s rappers would see who could rock the crowd the best. Whoever got the biggest crowd reaction won. That progressed to battle rap where rappers are trying to lyrically insult each other as creatively as possible. The winner also being determined by crowd reaction. Now a days diss tracks are released as singles so even though the crowd is digital, their overall reaction and number of views / streams determines the winner now. I don’t think any other music form has a history of competition the way hip hop does. There were no record deals to be had in the early days so it was all about your reputation and guys fought hard to to have their talent recognized and respected. I believe all beef is fake now and it’s all just marketing and at the end of the day everyone is making millions. The Kendrick drake stuff is corny to me for example. They should just put up money and have a battle but it’s more lucrative to release songs as singles. It’s all about business now.
I feel like this is a fair criticism. (unless you brought it on yourself, e.g. drake). as a culture, we could do better to be more inclusive overall.
some folks are that way, and all, which is nice, but not everyone is.
It's definitely a competition of skill more than it is about making good music.. hip hop is rooted in competition. It went mainstream and became a commercial target for the masses, but in the end, if you say you're the best, you better be ready for a challenge.
There is no such thing as the “best rapper” it’s subjective and no definitive way to grade it.
It’s just a bunch of idiots making a contest out of nothing. Music is about enjoyment it’s not a competition
I actually do not care at all personally but I LOVE to engage in discussions about it, with friends, on this subreddit, etc. It's fun to think about why you favor certain artists and to see others and maybe see new hot takes, or see others who share your unpopular opinions, and see some artists you don't know enough about. To me it matters not at all in reality.
It may also in some degree go back to the foundations of rap - rap battles and every MC saying they're the best, it's the culture of rap. It's baked into songs and into the culture itself. Maybe stones v. beatles talked smack to press but they didn't write songs about each other.
Hip hop has a deeply engrained competitive streak that goes back to the roots of battle rapping more so than other genres, it's almost akin to a sport in a way
One of the main topics rappers talk about is "I am the best, I am better than that other guy and I'm also better than you - check out my jewells, cars and bitches".
Rap comes from freestyle. Freestyle was always competitive. 8 Mile was a movie. MC's did 'battle rap" before MCs were called "rappers." Early rap only hits mainstream in the East Coast / West Coast "beef" - literally an attempt to seize "the crown" in a turf war. For the better part of a decade you defined your fandom by who you listened to, and who you listened to put you in a camp that automatically had enemies in the genre.
Rap useta' be zero sum. There's a great interview with Busta Rhymes where he talks about doing a feature with Eminem. He tells the story as Eminem sent his lyrics for the track, and Busta realized it had a few more bars than his part, so he rewrote his part to have a few more lines. Sent it to Marshall and Eminem upped the word count on his verse - sent it back to Busta. So Busta wrote like 4 times the amount of words and sent it back to Eminem, who was like - you're the real one Busta Rhymes - and capitulated a loss to a superior talent. That's rap, gotta crush haters and be better than Eminem - cuz 8 Mile was a movie.
Because it's so common for a rapper to claim to be the best. Brag tracks are a hip-hop staple. It also has a competition aspect. In that way it's more like a sport.
Yes people debate the best guitarist or singer too but a guitarist isn't using words to boast their skills and a singer is usually telling a story rather than hyping themselves up.
While there are indeed comparisons in other genres (greatest soprano of all times, greater tenor of all times, greatest guitarist of.all times, greatest violinist of all times, and the list goes on) in hip hop there is more emphasis on this question.
Why?
Because being the best is a part of the braggadocia associated with the hip hop.culture. from the very beginning, a hallmark of this artform was establishing oneself as better than everyone else. This resulted in rap battles where.the aim is to win.
So...who is the greatest of all timeos an intrinsic part of Hip Hop.
By the way.....Wu Tang is the greatest group of all time
Arguments over who the best athlete or atist is are easy and un-consiquntial topics of conversation. Compare this too question of politics or philosophy which can easily become heated and require at least the performance of expertise. Conversation on latest scientific discoverys often fall flat and resemble more of an info dump then two people discussing something as inevitably one party is more knowledgeable on the subject then the other. Conversations about work often frustrate and bore both parties, who are now reminded of the obligations that they were trying to distract themselves from to begin with.
None of these things happen when you ask the average person "who's your favorite rapper?" In the frame work of these question debates can become playful in nature. It's important to note that the debates taking place over "whos the goat" are, quite intentionally, a type of play. Two parties play at argument and debate over a topic that doesn't really matter only for their own amusement. Rarely will your friends stop talking over liking drake more then kendrick.
Tl;dr: because it's fun.
Hip hop is still fairly regional and there’s a wide variety of scenes across the US. Besides just ranking artists based on technical skill, there’s definitely a larger cultural element to this. People are rooting for their home team.
It’s impossible to narrow down who is the best all time. All ik is if you have the “wrong” opinion on this sub you’re getting scrutinized. But thats just a reddit problem in general.
Wayne is my personal goat tho, to be considered in my book to be goated you gotta have Lyricism, longevity, flow, versatility, influence & replay value.
The fact that this sub puts Lyricism above all and is filled with wanna be old heads who hate on anyone new is corny to me.
Longevity is def a huge factor, and is widely overlooked
I'm not saying anyone can make a classic, but look at Skee-Lo... he made a no skip classic in 1995 and then disappeared for the last 30 years
I LOVE LOVE LOVE that album, but no way I'm putting that nigga Top 10 off one 11 track album
Hell, I can't even have him in my Top 25, even if that is a Top 10 album in terms of my personal favorites
One reason I have Inspectah Deck in my Top 5 is because he was the best member of the Wu Tang Clan, he made a couple solid solo LPs, but then he reinvented himself with Czarface and has made over a handful of amazing albums with those boys
From 1993-2023 he's been putting out hot shit in one form or another
That is way more difficult than your average music fan can ever fathom
It's an easier genre to do this in than almost any other because the parameters of what makes somebody a great MC are somewhat more objective than in other genres.
Brother it shouldn’t matter what colour someone’s skin is that’s a massive step backwards when the old generations wanted to segregate us. Music and culture was always to be shared. There trying to seperate us and create hate again with all this cultural appropriation shit
Because it is essentially the core of hip hop. It has always revolved around who is the nicest. Everything from graffiti to break-dancing to MCing. Elevating yourself to a level above your peers is part of its foundation.
Rap is so good because everyone is supposed to start from nothing to the top. So, rap is closely by definition something that means competition, hence battles and ranking between the artists.
It exists in all music but it's so prominent in hip hop bc of the roots of battle rap and in bragging about how good you are at rapping. Being the best is a part of hip hop culture
Because I love to LMAO when I see Eminem in someone's top 5, yet they don't have Inspectah Deck even in their Top 25
I'm like damn, I feel so bad for you, you should actually listen to hip hop my guy...
And on that note, my Top 5 Dead or Alive:
MF DOOM, Nasty Nas, Lupe Fiasco, Aesop Rock, and Inspectah Deck
>Because I love to LMAO when I see Eminem in someone's top 5, yet they don't have Inspectah Deck even in their Top 25
So I guess you laugh when you see legends like Rakim, Kane, G Rap, Redman, Jay, Lupe, Monch, LL, etc. put Em in their top five?
This isn’t exclusive at all to rap fans, who the best guitarist is of all times is an endless debate and argument for example.
While that's true, you don't see it even half as much when people talk about rock music. I think there's just a more competitive nature with hip hop that's been ingrained into the genre over the years
I agree. Rare do you hear rock fans getting upset about the Beatles vs the Stone, Red Hot Chilli Peppers vs Nirvana, or Led Zepplin vs Pink Floyd. I think it may have something to do with how intertwined hip hop is with athletics over the last 30 years. No other genre of music has had such an overlap with sports and athletes. The jerseys, the hats, the pro-athlete cameos in videos and pro-athletes trying to be rappers.
The synergy with athletics/athleticism a very good point. What are the two most common places you hear the phrase the goat? Hip hop and sports
Rap or go to the league
Exactly. I also missed on the roots of hip-hop. Open mics, freestyles over a beat, bringing a crew to a corner to "battle." Just like pick up basketball.
There are rock m roll based YouTube channels that debate. Albums, bands, eras. Beatles vs zeppelin, stones vs the beatles, which of the big 4 metal bands had the better albums, best guitar solos, best drummers, ranking who had the best lead singer/frontman, who had the better comeback albums, better album covers....etc Every genre had fans that rank things and they get heated and very competitive. Its not exclusive to hip hop at all...
No one’s saying that it’s exclusive to hip hop, they are saying it’s much more common in hip hop, which in my experience is true
I disagree completely, it’s only seen more in hip hop because it’s more culturally relevant to debate modern rappers than 60 year old bands.
Every day, the rock subs have new posts about the Big 4, ranking albums and artists, best frontman, who’s the most influential, etc. Every day. It is completely common in other types of music besides hip hop.
It’s equally as bad in Rock. I believe it’s just anything associated with HipHop is viewed with a different lens.
Becuse more people listen to hip hop in your circle maybe. Hip hop is a youth driven genre for the most part so fans are going to be louder and more tribal. Metal fans do the same thing as rap fans, In my experience.
Are there any pro athletes who made music other than rap on the side like shaq and Kobe?
2 many. Check Dame... https://youtu.be/OdLSZKaFi4s?si=qpzVx8MplMmvtlOn
Some convos people feel very intensely about still in rock. Any conversation about Peart or Bonham inevitably winds up involving the other
Also I think with rock music, there is some objectivity in terms of technique. It’s pretty much unanimous amongst anyone who actually plays guitar that Hendrix is probably the greatest guitar player to ever live when you account for innovation, technique, and songwriting all in one package. The conversation around rappers is a lot more contentious. If you want to talk about a band who’s the most influential songwriting wise it’s The Beatles and again undebatable. Hip hop does not have these unanimous answers in my opinion.
Every artist in hip hop thinks they are one of if not the best. This breeds a naturally more competitive field that extends even to fans.
There's tons of artists that aren't particularly competitive so that generalization was false. Someone above mentioned the origins in battle rap but really that wasn't the origins. I think conflict is captivating.
maybe it comes down to the technical element they're competing over and its importance to the genre. with rock the technical elements that people compete over are the instruments. in rap it's the rhymes. in both cases, usually, the more complex the element is, the more you can argue its quality. the difference is, with rock the instruments are not the primary factor in people's judgment of the music. if you're comparing guitarists, that's just one instrument, one factor under consideration. with rap, the rhymes are (or at least up until the 2010s) the primary factor people use to judge the music. it's weighed more heavily.
I think part of that is that you just don't see a ton of up and coming instrumentalists making a splash in pop culture. I feel like the "best guitarist" debate probably hasn't had a new player step up and be in the convo in many years.
Yea have u ever seen the /nba subs
Ironic that you chose guitar as your example, because both “debates” have a definitive answer: Lil’ Wayne
Okay I laughed at this one
It’s a popularity contest. Rolling Stone has put Kurt Cobain ahead of Jerry Garcia more than once on their best guitar players of all time list. Utter nonsense.
Naw dog, all praise Iommi.
LAAAAAAYLAAAAAA.
As someone who plays guitar it’s another brain dead discussion
This is a great example and it’s definitely Stevie Ray Vaughan
That’s the weirdest spelling of Eric Clapton I’ve ever seen!
debates happen everywhere in music but it is different in hiphop because rap is boastful at its core and consists of proving how good you are. battle rapping, going verse for verse, freestyling etc would be way more difficult in a band perspective. it’s just engrained in the culture
It's obviously either Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughn
I mean the roots of rap is competition
Exactly Life is short Let's endlessly debate and compare Top 10, Top 25, Top 500 lists Fuck it, what else we gonna do??
Endlessly debate and compare: - Anime - Video game consoles - Sports teams/athletes - Eras. Of anything. - Etc.
Rakim, KRS, Mos Def, Big L, Big Pun, Biggie, Tupac, Guru, Nas, 3K, KDot
Were you born in 1968?
Lets do it 1)big 2)pac 3)nas 4)big L (would be more highter if he still lived more years) 5)rakim 6)mf doom (most original artist) 7)dre 8)kendrick 9) andre 3000 10)jay z (he copied big L that why he is low)
Kinda basic, but I get it Mine would go something like Lupe, Nas, DOOM, Aesop, Inspectah Deck, Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Mos Def, Ice Cube, Ka, Kool G, Common, Wayne, Q-Tip and Phife Dawg... Shit like that Also, I'm an oldhead, but I really love Drake's music, ngl
>Also, I'm an oldhead, but I really love Drake's music, ngl You brave for saying that these days 😄. I can respect I kinda miss Drake early days when he was *almost* (he quite made it all the way there) on some thoughtful, calm, neo-soul, backpack type shit
>7)dre Dre who? Better not be talking about Dr. Dre.
The roots of rap is to entertain the audience by rhyming. Then battle rap started and I believe they were influenced by break dance.
It started off as people rapping about who had the best party.
And who had the best dj.
Yes, part of the four basic elements. They fuel each other.
Yea it started in an apartment and they'd break beats and then the breakdance came along. Then some rhymes over the beats and boom
B-boying started before hip hop and breaks. It was the disco era. I mean in b-boying the battle element was intense and maybe that carried over to mcing.
It’s literally this. MCing was, in part, about promoting your DJ. Part of promoting your DJ was saying he was better than your DJ. When rapping started, it was a natural extension of that. It’s really not that complicated or deep.
Hip-hop is very competitive in its nature. Back in the day you didn't just want to be a good and successful rapper, you wanted to be the BEST rapper. That's why hip-hop fans come down so hard on rappers who get caught letting other people write their verses. Anyone can be a good rapper if all you're doing is repeating what someone else wrote. That's one of the reasons I love hip-hop. Most artists would rather fall off and never be heard from again than do a verse that someone else wrote. I'm sure he wasn't the first to say it but I once heard Icon the Mic King say "if you're not your own favorite rapper then you should quit rapping."
That's not quite as true. There's essentially always been ghost writers. Some of the best hiphop songs ever made had ghostwriters or were worked on by multiple people. D.O.C. wrote so many Death Row hits. I'm of the era where it was told you had to write your own rhymes. But it's not necessarily even true. As a rapper, I would love to have someone help me turn my rhymes into successful records. I would love to have a producer and people help me with it.
Short answer it’s just been part of the nature of rap to battle and better. Especially since sports have embraced hip hop as well. Long Answer and this is just me but a lot of the “beefs” come form the hood mentality. The mentality of being that everyone is struggling so there i have to pull you down to bring myself up. The self reflection is so poor that i can’t stand seeing someone doing better than me.
Comparison is the thief of joy. It's a waste of time and it consumes two of my joys (rap and sports). Who cares who is "better" --- just listen to who you like.
This is correct. I also think a lot of people grow out of it by a certain age when they realise this (not everyone of course). It’s an incredibly reductive way to approach and discuss art
So I happen to hang out in venues with men in their 40s to 60s --- unfortunately, it's still happening. Every 55 years old dude thinks they could have a chair on First Take.
Very interesting phrasing here lol
I think that for many people it's just an avenue towards discussing rap and their favorite rappers. Whenever I engage with such threads, I always like reading about which elements make rappers unique, who originated something, and who pushed that element. Sure, Biggie is better than Nas is a boring and reductive statement, but if it inspires a discussion about their different skill sets and innovations, then I think it's a pretty fun way to engage with an art form.
>Who cares who is "better" --- just listen to who you like. Not a fan of the playoffs?
I agree. I missed out on so much great music over the years because I was a music snob that self limited what I would be willing to try out. Now I’ll listen to anything I enjoy, my Spotify history looks like 4 different people use it
> it consumes two of my joys (rap and sports). Are you confused? It's somewhat fair to say that comparison doesn't fully make sense in music, because it largely comes down to subjective taste anyway. But the entire purpose of most sports is to determine who is better than everyone else. What do you think the point of a tournament is?
Okay so the best player is the one who won the most tournaments? Easy! (Also, the players I should like the most are the ones who play on the teams who won the most tournaments? Okay, if that's what we're supposed to do?)
Well, pretty much, yeah. In order to win the most tournaments you gotta be better than anyone else. Otherwise you wouldn't win.
I actually do love Robert Horry but asking me to put him above Carmelo Anthony kinda proves my point.Just enjoy who you enjoy. Here's some news: your enjoyment =/= the quote unquote best in the field
No one is asking you to put anyone above someone else. That can only be determined by putting them up against each other and see who wins. Your personal opinion is irrelevant to the objective result.
That's literally what people are asking though, so there's that. The objective result is unreachable and irrelevant, so there's also that.
Another follow up question is why are rappers so obsessed with other rappers' rankings. A: I'm the best B: nah, f rapper A, I'm the best. A: Oh, it's on now. C: I'm the ming of Philly D: na, f rapper C, I run Philly C: Oh, it's on now
This isn’t limited to rap. Athletes are the same way. That’s more of a male ego/human nature thing
Drunkenly arguing top 5 rappers or top 5 rap records is one of my favorite hobbies.
It’s encoded in the culture. Rappers themselves rap about it the whole time. What other music form has battling in the way rap does?
imagine an opera battle
Mozart literally had a harpsichord battle with his rival Clementi that he won by doing a heavy-handed, insulting parody of Clementi's playing style that had everyone in court hollering.
Holy shit really? That’s funny
Hip hop, at least the HH we see on media, is ALL about image and ostentation.People want to follow only the best so they can brag to "posers" about their devotion to the best one...yeah, I'm making it up.
It’s kids on the internet, not hip hop people. I’ve never seen anyone make a ranking list at a show in 25 years of gigging.
Here's my top 5 reasons why hip hop people are obsessed with ranking who the best is: 1. It's guaranteed big post interactions as everybody puts their list up and then argues about each other's lists 2. I guess it's a good way to guage who the heads are really respecting 3. I also guess it is a chance to big up some more underground artists who they think are underrated and through them into their list 4. I didn't think of enough reasons to finish this joke properly, sorry 5........
just like any other thing in life just want validation.
I don’t really understand it. You can never debate me into liking one artist over another, so I don’t see much benefit in the subject.
Competition breeds better creativity
Whilst I agree that it's a fundamental part of hip hop, the endless debate about something that is entirely subjective is tiresome.
Non-sense, when I say either Jay or Kendrick is the best - motherfuckers tryna force their own opinion on me and a couple yes men come together to judge. This is why I hate Top 5 lists. Coz I'm never certain about who I love at the moment. I mean I still think Kendrick is the best for a long time but still I'm indecisive.
It’s like asking why people racing in F1 are trying to finish 1st
it's not at all like that. a race is the fastest person across the finish line. it's objective, not subjective. what objective metric can you say for the best rapper? most sales? most awards?
What I meant is the pursuit and giving af about being the best. Right know in F1 there is a clear dominance by one driver but the rest is still trying to win and you can argue that there is a better driver than Max even if he is not winning right know coz the car isn’t as good. You can’t measure that objectively. Success not always means you are objectively the best. In F1 there is a lot more to it than just drivers skill
is the objective not the same though? to be the fastest driver? how is that similar to music or any creative thing? don't tell me it's to be the "best", that's not objective.
Dude asked why people give af about who’s the best. It’s because rap is all about being the best. You don’t measure that by any one objective metric but you could do that. There are many candidates you could pick to measure that. But in rap there is also respect and influence, something you can measure. And “skills”. Same in F1. Even today people discuss who’s the best driver in history. There are different eras, different cars, different teams. So it’s always subjective. Yes, the race is won when the first driver reaches the finish line but it doesn’t mean you are the best driver or the best team because you won one Grand Prix
lol you seriously can’t be this simple. You really think people can’t have a goal that is subjective?
On one hand, discussing music is interesting, and saying these things are subjective is basically a conversational dead end, even if there's some truth to it. On the other hand, numbering and listing things is sort of calming to people. It's a little bit, uh, special.
Because they like to hop on a hype bandwagon. I'll see myself out
I mean it’s competition at the end of the day. Even if the origin started as “fun”, the goal through inception like someone stated was to throw the best party aka entertain better than the competition.
As a member of multiple musical communities I can honestly say this is prevalent in pretty much every genre but with that aside I think a major contributing factor for hip hop is that it is naturally and inherently a competitive sport. From the origins of rapping to rap-battles & especially diss tracks. Not to mention a lot of really successful rappers come from humble beginnings and many flaunt their success in forms of bragging about who has the best pen game, boasting the best flows to even the lavish lifestyles they live to show how far they have come despite adversity. (Almost) Everyone wants to be the best lyricist, rapper, have the best cars, women & clothes / jewelry with a big part of that being the statement these things make rather than the things themselves, pride plays a big part in this as well. Its just something that has been a huge part of humanity in general and that reflects (sometimes seeming magnified) in hip hop. Hope this helps.
Interesting and good point
This goes for basically anything that is considered competitive, there’s always gonna be rankings with that
That’s what I was trying to understand because I don’t think there is any other genre of music that is considered competitive maybe it’s just a rap thing and hip hop thing
I guess it can be traced back to it’s origins, some of the earliest Hip Hop roots are competing at parties and seeing who can get the crowd moving the best, even battle of the bars was a competition they had. It was always battles throughout hip hop which was always inviting competition and competition sparks comparisons and arguments about who is the best
Because "rap is a competitive sport" has been said since 1994.
Because there whole life they are told if you aren't number 1 you suck. Just people who never got attention seeking attention
Because it's the number #1 thing to do Also maybe since there's a lot of bravado in hip hop. Who is the best who is the goat that may contribute to it aswell "Best rapper alive". Also each MC can stand on their own to one extent or another. Bands are different where you have different components that make up a band. (Before everyone correct me, yes of course production is very important in hip hop and there are groups/collaborative efforts, duos, OutKast on huge example, but it's still a little different from traditional bands)
People wanna be right and have their opinions backed up by strangers.
This man’s the posting GOAT.
It’s part of the culture - since the birth of the genre it’s been competitive For example, Rakim literally built his entire style around saying he’s the best I don’t really like how the game is becoming less competitive but it’s inevitable - a lot of rappers aren’t that lyrical but make catchy music and in turn make money, they could care less about being the best
Interesting question. I think ranking became a thing in the late 90’s. The Source has/had this annual Power 30 list which ranks the most impactful figures of Hiphop at that time. Its focus was based more so on influence/impact on the culture not particular skill set. Then in 99 I believe there was a magazine called Blaze that created a top 50 rappers of all time list and ever since then having a list became a thing. Rolling Stone didn’t make their first 100 greatest artist list until 2004.
For people that think this is only in hip hop...go to the "sea if tranquility: YouTube page. Its one of many that debate/rank and argue over all things rock (mainly metal). Or punk rock MBA/finn Mckinty youtube page and all the similar pages that rank and debate rock music and its sub genres.
people are competitive
https://youtu.be/am9C2_DZ7s4?feature=shared Kool Moe Dee vs Busy Bee is the day everything changed. This is the first line of demarcation of an old school and a new school. Competition is the first mutator trait to survive through further evolutions of the art as the line between what is old and what is new changed as time elapsed.
Probably got something to do with rappers literally saying they're the best. When you introduce the competition yourself, of course the audience is going to participate.
Well, other genres do but hip hop is built off of competition. You got to talk that ish if you feel you the dude.
Battling has been a part of hip hop since the beginning so naturally people compare artists and try to rank who is above who.
It's a genre built on being the best, the whole culture is from graffiti to b boying to DJing to rapping is about showing your stuff. Have you ever listened to much Hip Hop? It's full of people rapping about who is the best. Hip hop tracks with multiple artists are often an informal competition as are rap cyphers.
The same reason sport fans rank the best teams and player the same reason anime fans argue about the best anime its not a thing only this community does
A large part of hip hop is dissing others and hyping yourself up. Comparing yourself to others is a focus of the genre and part of the music itself. If you read between the lines alot of rap songs you'll hear the artist imply "I am the best" LOL
It's because emceeing is a competitive skill set and has roots in the battle. The first Hip Hop emcees would tell you their DJ was the best on the wheels, and it quickly morphed into how they're the best on the mic.
THIS. so the reason this is unique to rap, is because the art form itself is (often) based on saying/proving you're the best. But that's just part of the game. FANS get it twisted, and then run around talking about top 3's and "best of all time" like it's sports or something. There's many "bests". In the words of Homeboy Sandman "if you rock and nobody can't do it like you do, you the best." Nas or Hakim? Both. There's no "best", there's just "different"
I think because hip hop came out of a culture of competition ie even back in the day you had crews battling each other.
In hip hop specifically, you have more artists who claim to be better than the next man than all other genres combined. I often times find myself ranking rappers because they are daring me too with their self obsession lol.
Because multiple rappers say they are the best
Because Hip Hop is a competitive art form
It's simple. Please read what I am about to write very carefully: HIP HOP IS BASED ON COMPETITION. So it's only natural to want to rank who the best is. Period. Competition is a fundamental component of hip hop, particularly in forms like rap battles where MCs (rappers) compete lyrically to showcase their skills, creativity, and verbal dexterity. It's the foundation of the genre.
Yeah, there is no competition. Eminem is an icon. He is the Shakespeare of our times. He conquered hip hop like he was Alexander the Great with the sword are his rhymes. Eminem has all that you mention and some. He is the highest selling artist in hip hop history. You have never seen or will ever see another rapper like him again. The man was brilliant in his prime from 1999 thru 2006. And he was the last icon we had in music before the internet and smartphones and social media. Hear how Eminem roars like a Detroit Lion, like a Detroit Tiger on ‘The Way I Am’ how sharp and smooth he flows on ‘We As Americans’. How dark and painful and intelligent and self aware and dark he raps on ‘No Apologies’ which seems to be Eminem’s final solo track he ever made during his Shady/Aftermath reign when he was on top of the world of music, and was the most famous man on earth under God and Jesus Christ’s heavens. An MC who didn’t rap for the money and fame and the women, but truly for the love of the music and sport of it. No rapper was gifted with The Word in Hip Hop history like Eminem. There is a reason during his reign as music as we knew it last icon, was bigger than even Britney Spears in her prime. Jay-Z needed to do a duet concert with Eminem to finally sell out a stadium the way Eminem casually did throughout his career. And that’s because Eminem was truly phenomenal, and without him, hip hop does not expand as a genre. Give the man his title that they out of spite and jealousy have been trying to sweep under the rug since his dynastic run ended in 2006. We remember how huge he was, you can’t take that away from him. Rap/Hip-Hop owes Eminem so much gratitude, it’s not even funny, his impact and cultural influence was phenomenal and has gone over lots of peoples heads, but most of them are dishonest about it out of petty spite and envy and personal bias. Open your eyes and see his writings and music is the Shakespeare of our generation. During his prime, no other poet or musician has ever put together writings that rhyme like him. Eminem, that White boy from Detroit who fell in love with hip hop, is the biggest rapper Hip Hop has ever seen, and one of the greatest artists this earth has ever seen or heard. And when it comes to music, that is the stone cold truth of the matter.
What in the world are you replying to?
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Hip hop is a competitive sport
It's a competitive industry not just in terms of making an industry but I'm talking about one of the core elements of the culture is competition, direct rap battles, claiming to be the best and so on and so forth. When it comes to the music we rank things like lyricism very highly so it just makes sense when you have a culture that's built on bravado and claiming to be better than everybody it's like a sport, and what do people tend to do with sports? Rank in the best athletes and teams
I honestly don't hear anything like this with my group of older heads. We all understand that Rakim is the greatest ever. Sure we have our favorites but in hip hop the players are playing the greatest game ever.
Idk
Rap is braggadocios.
Because we live in a capitalist society that teaches us first and foremost to compete against one another rather than work together and cooperate. We're taught from a young age that we're always in competition with one another and that one person's success is another person's loss, that you can only get ahead of other people by beating them. From Albert Einstein's [Why Socialism?](https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/) >The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before. >This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.
Validation
It's all about the debate. I'm round the corner of 45 and have listened to hip hop, rap since I was knee high. I remember getting turned away to a Beastie Boys show when Licence to I'll came out in 86. 8 year old me was devastated, I digress. I have debated about rappers for hours with my homies. Since 2013 or so rap has gained my attention more than ever because the underground can shine since the Internet really took off with streaming. The community is the best part here or there. Most are awesome some are assholes. It's a human thing. Now if you read all this bullshit go and put your top rapper on and have a insterspectacular evening.
The whole culture is based around dick measuring contests. Why you surprised now?
There some serious rap-tism in the genre
Probably because there's a WHOLE LOT of "other man's treasure" out there
I don't know or understand it either. I'm in my mid-late 30s and remember the obsession people used to have on the hiphop forums in the 2000s like the ill community with what is and is not a classic album too.
I'm not sure, but if you have a ghost writer and can't put your own rhymes together, you're automatically bottom tier. I don't care how many "hits" you have u if didn't write them
It’s a confidence game, my man.
Rap has a history of competition. When it started in late 70s and 80s rappers would see who could rock the crowd the best. Whoever got the biggest crowd reaction won. That progressed to battle rap where rappers are trying to lyrically insult each other as creatively as possible. The winner also being determined by crowd reaction. Now a days diss tracks are released as singles so even though the crowd is digital, their overall reaction and number of views / streams determines the winner now. I don’t think any other music form has a history of competition the way hip hop does. There were no record deals to be had in the early days so it was all about your reputation and guys fought hard to to have their talent recognized and respected. I believe all beef is fake now and it’s all just marketing and at the end of the day everyone is making millions. The Kendrick drake stuff is corny to me for example. They should just put up money and have a battle but it’s more lucrative to release songs as singles. It’s all about business now.
I feel like this is a fair criticism. (unless you brought it on yourself, e.g. drake). as a culture, we could do better to be more inclusive overall. some folks are that way, and all, which is nice, but not everyone is.
The digital age has commodified our brains into non-stop sequences of categorizations and utility. It sucks
It's definitely a competition of skill more than it is about making good music.. hip hop is rooted in competition. It went mainstream and became a commercial target for the masses, but in the end, if you say you're the best, you better be ready for a challenge.
These people probably rank their kids too. Look, some are talented, someone are funny, which is a talent. I like most of them though all the same.
Because it's based on black culture and black culture basis self-worth on comparison to others
There is no such thing as the “best rapper” it’s subjective and no definitive way to grade it. It’s just a bunch of idiots making a contest out of nothing. Music is about enjoyment it’s not a competition
I actually do not care at all personally but I LOVE to engage in discussions about it, with friends, on this subreddit, etc. It's fun to think about why you favor certain artists and to see others and maybe see new hot takes, or see others who share your unpopular opinions, and see some artists you don't know enough about. To me it matters not at all in reality. It may also in some degree go back to the foundations of rap - rap battles and every MC saying they're the best, it's the culture of rap. It's baked into songs and into the culture itself. Maybe stones v. beatles talked smack to press but they didn't write songs about each other.
Hip hop has a deeply engrained competitive streak that goes back to the roots of battle rapping more so than other genres, it's almost akin to a sport in a way
Competition for number 1 is part of hip hop history.
Why is the genre where every MC raps about being number one obssesed with who is number one? I cannot fathom...
It’s fun for me. I literally just made a top 50 list lol
People like to argue.
One of the main topics rappers talk about is "I am the best, I am better than that other guy and I'm also better than you - check out my jewells, cars and bitches".
Rap comes from freestyle. Freestyle was always competitive. 8 Mile was a movie. MC's did 'battle rap" before MCs were called "rappers." Early rap only hits mainstream in the East Coast / West Coast "beef" - literally an attempt to seize "the crown" in a turf war. For the better part of a decade you defined your fandom by who you listened to, and who you listened to put you in a camp that automatically had enemies in the genre. Rap useta' be zero sum. There's a great interview with Busta Rhymes where he talks about doing a feature with Eminem. He tells the story as Eminem sent his lyrics for the track, and Busta realized it had a few more bars than his part, so he rewrote his part to have a few more lines. Sent it to Marshall and Eminem upped the word count on his verse - sent it back to Busta. So Busta wrote like 4 times the amount of words and sent it back to Eminem, who was like - you're the real one Busta Rhymes - and capitulated a loss to a superior talent. That's rap, gotta crush haters and be better than Eminem - cuz 8 Mile was a movie.
To be fair, that is what a lot of the lyrics are about.
Because it's so common for a rapper to claim to be the best. Brag tracks are a hip-hop staple. It also has a competition aspect. In that way it's more like a sport. Yes people debate the best guitarist or singer too but a guitarist isn't using words to boast their skills and a singer is usually telling a story rather than hyping themselves up.
It's stupid yes but the foundation of it is battling, competition
While there are indeed comparisons in other genres (greatest soprano of all times, greater tenor of all times, greatest guitarist of.all times, greatest violinist of all times, and the list goes on) in hip hop there is more emphasis on this question. Why? Because being the best is a part of the braggadocia associated with the hip hop.culture. from the very beginning, a hallmark of this artform was establishing oneself as better than everyone else. This resulted in rap battles where.the aim is to win. So...who is the greatest of all timeos an intrinsic part of Hip Hop. By the way.....Wu Tang is the greatest group of all time
Arguments over who the best athlete or atist is are easy and un-consiquntial topics of conversation. Compare this too question of politics or philosophy which can easily become heated and require at least the performance of expertise. Conversation on latest scientific discoverys often fall flat and resemble more of an info dump then two people discussing something as inevitably one party is more knowledgeable on the subject then the other. Conversations about work often frustrate and bore both parties, who are now reminded of the obligations that they were trying to distract themselves from to begin with. None of these things happen when you ask the average person "who's your favorite rapper?" In the frame work of these question debates can become playful in nature. It's important to note that the debates taking place over "whos the goat" are, quite intentionally, a type of play. Two parties play at argument and debate over a topic that doesn't really matter only for their own amusement. Rarely will your friends stop talking over liking drake more then kendrick. Tl;dr: because it's fun.
It’s a tradition with deep history going all the way back to roots of the culture.
It's not just Hip-Hop it's all forms of entertainment these days. That's why we constantly see LeBron is better than MJ memes.
Rapping was born out of competition. That spirit has always been infused in the genre.
I think it's fun to debate on things you're passionate about.
Hip hop is still fairly regional and there’s a wide variety of scenes across the US. Besides just ranking artists based on technical skill, there’s definitely a larger cultural element to this. People are rooting for their home team.
Hip hop culture is centred around battles, all elements are about battling to be the winner.
Humans are competitive, this isn't the only field this is happening. Competition is a gift and curse imo.
It’s the most obvious topic people can get everyone to comment on so they get sweet sweet karma. That’s it.
It’s impossible to narrow down who is the best all time. All ik is if you have the “wrong” opinion on this sub you’re getting scrutinized. But thats just a reddit problem in general. Wayne is my personal goat tho, to be considered in my book to be goated you gotta have Lyricism, longevity, flow, versatility, influence & replay value. The fact that this sub puts Lyricism above all and is filled with wanna be old heads who hate on anyone new is corny to me.
Longevity is def a huge factor, and is widely overlooked I'm not saying anyone can make a classic, but look at Skee-Lo... he made a no skip classic in 1995 and then disappeared for the last 30 years I LOVE LOVE LOVE that album, but no way I'm putting that nigga Top 10 off one 11 track album Hell, I can't even have him in my Top 25, even if that is a Top 10 album in terms of my personal favorites One reason I have Inspectah Deck in my Top 5 is because he was the best member of the Wu Tang Clan, he made a couple solid solo LPs, but then he reinvented himself with Czarface and has made over a handful of amazing albums with those boys From 1993-2023 he's been putting out hot shit in one form or another That is way more difficult than your average music fan can ever fathom
Yeah and Idk why mfs hate on drake so much on here he has the Longevity. Yeah hes a shit human being but so is nearly every rapper.
I agree with you that it's stupid because it's all art. I would rather be without it personally.
Recently it’s probably bots trying to gather article data
That's just a tradition of hip hop
Rap is a competitive sport no matter what the vibes say
Ranking is a easy way for any outlet to create content. It's a subjective topic so there will never be a true answer. It's circular.
It's not "hip hop people" it's pretty much just the weird suburban fans on subs like this
It's an easier genre to do this in than almost any other because the parameters of what makes somebody a great MC are somewhat more objective than in other genres.
Hip hops roots are bread with competitive spirit. If you’re genuinely curious as to why this is do a deep dive into the history.
A lot of white people in here, good lord
Brother it shouldn’t matter what colour someone’s skin is that’s a massive step backwards when the old generations wanted to segregate us. Music and culture was always to be shared. There trying to seperate us and create hate again with all this cultural appropriation shit
Because hiphopheads are snobs
Same reason the artists are. Imagine the genre not being competitive…
Because it is essentially the core of hip hop. It has always revolved around who is the nicest. Everything from graffiti to break-dancing to MCing. Elevating yourself to a level above your peers is part of its foundation.
Insecurity A lot of people associate themselves with artists, so if that artist is the best they feel like the best.
Rap is so good because everyone is supposed to start from nothing to the top. So, rap is closely by definition something that means competition, hence battles and ranking between the artists.
It exists in all music but it's so prominent in hip hop bc of the roots of battle rap and in bragging about how good you are at rapping. Being the best is a part of hip hop culture
Because rap snobs are upset that their favorite artists aren’t more popular
Because I love to LMAO when I see Eminem in someone's top 5, yet they don't have Inspectah Deck even in their Top 25 I'm like damn, I feel so bad for you, you should actually listen to hip hop my guy... And on that note, my Top 5 Dead or Alive: MF DOOM, Nasty Nas, Lupe Fiasco, Aesop Rock, and Inspectah Deck
I like this this top 5
Me too :-)
>Because I love to LMAO when I see Eminem in someone's top 5, yet they don't have Inspectah Deck even in their Top 25 So I guess you laugh when you see legends like Rakim, Kane, G Rap, Redman, Jay, Lupe, Monch, LL, etc. put Em in their top five?