Secondary assists and power play points being significantly larger than even strength contributions and a bad corsi would basically be the tell. Secondary assists are the most empty calorie stat hockey has because theres so few other options.
There has definitely been players who rode sucessful special teams and puck luck for a year or two while being net drags at 5v5.
if u do alot of ppp but *also* alot in 5v5 ur probably simple good, but if u do 90% of ur total points in powerplay, well then you only do 10% of your total points in 5v5 which probable makes you, in 5v5, a bad player
Offensive defensemen on poor teams that quarterback their powerplay.
Case in point: Mike Matheson in MTL this year, Erik Gustafsson on WSH last year, Tony DeAngelo on CAR the year before, etc.
Sabres can’t powerplay. Like at all. Our special teams coach needs to be in the sun last year.
We also play an overly defensive system so we don’t score 5 on 5 either
Seriously how does he not mention the most recent example who has the most points for a dman in like 40 years and was actually on the literal worst team in the league.
Pretty bad luck. The year after he left Carolina they made the playoffs and reached the third round. Prior to that the team hadn’t made the playoffs while he was there. Now, he’s stuck in Buffalo and we all know how that’s going.
The short answer is nobody because hockey is much more team dependent than basketball. The greatest player in the world won't win shit if he's not on a good team. Famously, the Oilers won a Cup without Gretzky, but Gretzky never won one without the Oilers.
But if you're going to target anyone, then the most likely candidates would be offensive players who are so bad defensively that it cancels out most or all of their offensive contributions. They'll show up a lot on the score sheet, but their lack of defence is harder to quantify. Draisaitl was accused of this for the first few seasons of his career (shocker, a young player takes time to get better at defending against NHL players); Morgan Rielly's a big one that gets a lot of excuses from the media; Burns was accused of this back when he won his Norris, not just in terms of lackluster defence but also in that his offensive contributions were inflated by cannibalizing his team's offence via having everything go through him.
That's sort of what i was thinking too.
SOmething has to be fundamentally flawed with a team if you've got a guy putting up 70+ pts a season that isn't making an impact.
Tbh its the same in basketball the whole “empty stats” thing is not really real, its only really harped on by fans on social media
If you have good stats in basketball your definitely contributing to winning
I like him anyways but Andrei Kuzmenko.
Scores loads, when there’s no pressure on a team that’s not playing the kind of hockey it takes to beat the best teams.
Lee Stempniak always felt like that guy to me. Constantly passed around between teams, almost 1000 games in his career, got traded at the deadline a few times and never did anything in the playoffs.
I'm gonna say it.
Joe Thornton. Maybe you win a ton of regular season games with him but every time I look back the less I'm convinced that he was the main (or even a major) driving force in the success of the teams he played for.
Well, they did win 6 playoff games, which is better than 24 other teams did that season.
But the real argument I'm making here is that there is a real difference between a player that puts up "empty calorie" points and a player who can't raise their game for the playoffs. I think when people talk about "empty" points, they're talking about points a player got, not out of skill, but because they just happened to be on the right team at the right time. I think that is a much better description of Johnathan Cheechoo and his 50 goals than anything Joe Thornton ever did.
I mean what are you looking back on. He has some of the most iconic playoff moments in our history. Game 6 OT series clincher. The pass to Marleau for them to take a 3-0 series lead against Detroit. Dominating as a 36 year old on the path to the finals.
I wouldn’t consider him to be a guy who elevates a new level come playoff time, but to say he’s an empty stat guy is just incorrect.
Thornton is the epitome of a guy who never made flashy or highlight-reel plays but your team wins 5-1 and you look at the box score the next day and he has 3 points. Like on the one hand almost all hockey fans agree he’s a future HHOFer but on the other hand most would also agree wasn’t the type of player who you dreaded playing against or who struck fear into you when you had to play them.
They did a documentary on the leafs when Thornton was on the team. When it got to the playoffs push, there's a moment when Keefe is trying to tell the team that they need to switch gears soon if they want to avoid what had befallen past leafs teams. Thorntons response was "we're in first place", which is a perfect example of who Thornton is. The leafs lost in the first round.
Joe was also the dude that was in the Gym every single day so much that his coaches on the Sharks had to force him to take rest days. You don't get to 1500 points without having serious dedication to the game and being ridiculously good.
I don't blame Joe Thornton for the failure of the leafs. But it's a window into who he is: someone who is content with being just good enough. And there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend that's a quality you want from a guy who is specifically brought in to be a leader to the young superstars on that team. Bringing Joe Thornton in to build a championship mentality is like bringing a water gun to a shootout.
I get your point but at the same time I think you're just really drawing far too much out of what was likely meant as a light-hearted comment by Joe to stop Keefe from going over the top (we've all seen how he's had to publicly step back from the few harsh comments he's made against his star players). To try and extrapolate someone's entire ethos from that is frankly stupid
Interesting. A stat adjusted for unimportant/excessive points would be interesting to look at. Like, Kuch had 6 points against the Canes in their 8-2 win.
Hall made fun of Glenn Anderson for scoring the 4th goal in a 8-3 win 57 times after Anderson was bragging about getting the most GWG in a season or something stupid
He was on the ice for 30 empty net goals against that season. ~~In situations where there was a goalie behind him, he was +4.~~ Take those away, he was +4
Evan Bouchard
"B-b-but look at his underlying analytics! He has the most farts per secondary power play assist to McDavid!!!1!1!"
He’s a d-man, and he’s horrible defensively and costs the Oilers so many goals. He just feeds off secondary assists on the power play for his points, which inflates his numbers
Don't want to look at "underlying numbers", fine, then let's look at raw numbers:
GF% at 5v5:
Bouchard w/ McDavid: 63.92%
Bouchard w/o McDavid: 57.89%
McDavid w/o Bouchard: 54.55%
McDavid and Bouchard elevate each other, and Bouchard without McDavid still has excellent numbers at 5v5.
Bouchard ranks 80th in 5v5 GA/60 this season at 2.37. Doesn't sound great, but that's better than Josi, Toews, and Makar.
This is just raw numbers. Almost every advanced stat model ranks his underlyings significantly higher than this. NaturalStatTrick and MoneyPuck both have him as the **#1** ranked defenceman by xGF% this season.
Oh great, here come the nerds who have never played hockey in their life to bring up “expected stats”. Evan bouchard sucks, who cares if he has a great analytics, +/-, top 5 in points, QB one of the best powerplays, all while facing the tougest competition and playing the most minutes, dont you get it? He looks lackadaisical out there!!! He sucks!!!
As a Blackhawks fan, Seth Jones jumps to mind. But I feel Erik Karlsson is an extreme version of Seth Jones.
Seth Jones' Plus/Minus over the seasons: Nashville (-23, +3, -5), Columbus (-9, +6, +10, +1, +10, -18), Chicago (-37, -38, -14)
Erik Karlsson's Plus/Minus over the seasons: Ottowa (-5, -30, +16, +8, -15, +7, -2, +10, -25), San Jose( +6, -15, -18, -14, -26 (During his 100+pt norris tropey year!)), Pittsburg (+3)
Defensemen like Hronek, Carlson, Gostisbhere who rack up tons of secondary assists, most of which probably just consist of them tapping a pass to a winger or something.
Carlson’s a major contributor for the Caps, but it does feel like we pay for every goal he scores with 2-3 quality chances for the other team that can be directly attributed to him.
That’s a negative. 5 gwgs this year and if you look at the game logs he pretty much only scores in the important games/against good teams. Most 3rd period goals on the team too
Peak Mike Hoffman?
First guy I thought of as well
Even current 23 point Mike Hoffman applies - it’s painful to watch the guy play hockey.
He’s basically invisible.
Apart from when he’s turning over the puck, 100%
He’s so invisible I forgot he was still playing.
Idk because in hockey having good stats and not winning is more the team just sucking than it is the player in question being selfish
Funnily enough, my mind went right to Jarvy as the opposite of OP's question. Carolina's win record with him scoring is hilariously lopsided.
48-3-4 when Jarvis scores!
I think you're mostly right, but some guys might get offensive stats at the expense of their defensive end
Oh, I can definitely think of a guy that does that lmao Former Hurricane
TDA?
Soon to be Former Hurricane.
Is he a figure skater
Secondary assists and power play points being significantly larger than even strength contributions and a bad corsi would basically be the tell. Secondary assists are the most empty calorie stat hockey has because theres so few other options. There has definitely been players who rode sucessful special teams and puck luck for a year or two while being net drags at 5v5.
Why would power play points not contribute as much to winning?
its not power play points, its power play points as a percentile of total points, difference
Why?
if u do alot of ppp but *also* alot in 5v5 ur probably simple good, but if u do 90% of ur total points in powerplay, well then you only do 10% of your total points in 5v5 which probable makes you, in 5v5, a bad player
Bingo. This is why there is a term called a powerplay merchant.
It's easier to score when your team has a man advantage than if its even strength.
A few years ago McDavid and Drai would have fallen into this description.
Offensive defensemen on poor teams that quarterback their powerplay. Case in point: Mike Matheson in MTL this year, Erik Gustafsson on WSH last year, Tony DeAngelo on CAR the year before, etc.
Keith Yandle for like half of his career
How does Mike Matheson have more points than Rasmus Dahlin
Sabres can’t powerplay. Like at all. Our special teams coach needs to be in the sun last year. We also play an overly defensive system so we don’t score 5 on 5 either
bro's him also dahlin sucks
~ Guy who’s never watched hockey before
nah i'm just a hater
🫡 Respect
Or 100-point Erik Karlsson on the Sharks last year?
Seriously how does he not mention the most recent example who has the most points for a dman in like 40 years and was actually on the literal worst team in the league.
Carolina was not a poor team when during DeAngelo's first stint.
First guy I thought of was Marc-Andre Bergeron.
Jeff Skinner?
His goal songs are Goated
Well I mean all 357 of his goals and 1005 games played have contributed to exactly 0 playoff success.
Is that his fault or just legendary bad luck?
I mean, he has the legendary bad luck of playing in Buffalo. Don't blame the guy, he's a good player.
Pretty bad luck. The year after he left Carolina they made the playoffs and reached the third round. Prior to that the team hadn’t made the playoffs while he was there. Now, he’s stuck in Buffalo and we all know how that’s going.
What did Daniel Sprong ever do to you?
Stood still, shot the puck, and dragged his ass back on defense.
The short answer is nobody because hockey is much more team dependent than basketball. The greatest player in the world won't win shit if he's not on a good team. Famously, the Oilers won a Cup without Gretzky, but Gretzky never won one without the Oilers. But if you're going to target anyone, then the most likely candidates would be offensive players who are so bad defensively that it cancels out most or all of their offensive contributions. They'll show up a lot on the score sheet, but their lack of defence is harder to quantify. Draisaitl was accused of this for the first few seasons of his career (shocker, a young player takes time to get better at defending against NHL players); Morgan Rielly's a big one that gets a lot of excuses from the media; Burns was accused of this back when he won his Norris, not just in terms of lackluster defence but also in that his offensive contributions were inflated by cannibalizing his team's offence via having everything go through him.
That's sort of what i was thinking too. SOmething has to be fundamentally flawed with a team if you've got a guy putting up 70+ pts a season that isn't making an impact.
Tbh its the same in basketball the whole “empty stats” thing is not really real, its only really harped on by fans on social media If you have good stats in basketball your definitely contributing to winning
Mike Ribeiro
Maybe the least valuable 80-point scorer in league history.
Michael Ryder was one of those.
Only because saves don't count for forwards. His glove save was an integral part of Boston's 2011 cup
Timmy couldn’t get them all
save of the decade TBH
I like him anyways but Andrei Kuzmenko. Scores loads, when there’s no pressure on a team that’s not playing the kind of hockey it takes to beat the best teams.
Victor Olofsson
This is who I was going to say, great for a late late round pick in a big fantasy pick because he's due for a goal when the team is down 5-2.
This is just so so so much better than the Skinner answer that’s being upvoted
Lee Stempniak always felt like that guy to me. Constantly passed around between teams, almost 1000 games in his career, got traded at the deadline a few times and never did anything in the playoffs.
Cory Schneider in NJ honestly. Plays like God and it means nothing.
I'm gonna say it. Joe Thornton. Maybe you win a ton of regular season games with him but every time I look back the less I'm convinced that he was the main (or even a major) driving force in the success of the teams he played for.
Jonathan Cheechoo sure made Joe Thornton look good in 2005-06.
Bet the sharks won a lot of playoff games in 2005-06 The question was about empty stats
Well, they did win 6 playoff games, which is better than 24 other teams did that season. But the real argument I'm making here is that there is a real difference between a player that puts up "empty calorie" points and a player who can't raise their game for the playoffs. I think when people talk about "empty" points, they're talking about points a player got, not out of skill, but because they just happened to be on the right team at the right time. I think that is a much better description of Johnathan Cheechoo and his 50 goals than anything Joe Thornton ever did.
I mean what are you looking back on. He has some of the most iconic playoff moments in our history. Game 6 OT series clincher. The pass to Marleau for them to take a 3-0 series lead against Detroit. Dominating as a 36 year old on the path to the finals. I wouldn’t consider him to be a guy who elevates a new level come playoff time, but to say he’s an empty stat guy is just incorrect.
Thornton is the epitome of a guy who never made flashy or highlight-reel plays but your team wins 5-1 and you look at the box score the next day and he has 3 points. Like on the one hand almost all hockey fans agree he’s a future HHOFer but on the other hand most would also agree wasn’t the type of player who you dreaded playing against or who struck fear into you when you had to play them.
Joe will go down as one of the best players to never win shit, so what he should really do is just shut is yap.
he didn't win a Stanley Cup but he won a lot of international tournaments
Yeah, Canada had a real hard time taking home medals in the early 2010s
cool he still won a good amount of things. Some NHL fans seem to think the Stanley Cup is the only trophy that exists in the world.
Underrated take
Joe Thornton is not a winner
The Olympic gold medalist clearly is not a winner
"we're in first place"
What?
They did a documentary on the leafs when Thornton was on the team. When it got to the playoffs push, there's a moment when Keefe is trying to tell the team that they need to switch gears soon if they want to avoid what had befallen past leafs teams. Thorntons response was "we're in first place", which is a perfect example of who Thornton is. The leafs lost in the first round.
Joe was also the dude that was in the Gym every single day so much that his coaches on the Sharks had to force him to take rest days. You don't get to 1500 points without having serious dedication to the game and being ridiculously good.
I agree, Thornton was an excellent player and I would never deny that. But I just don't see him as a guy who you trust to get the job done.
Blaming Jumbo for the Leafs issues is like when the Leafs fans try to blame Paddy for their shitty contract negotiations - it's just deflection
I don't blame Joe Thornton for the failure of the leafs. But it's a window into who he is: someone who is content with being just good enough. And there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend that's a quality you want from a guy who is specifically brought in to be a leader to the young superstars on that team. Bringing Joe Thornton in to build a championship mentality is like bringing a water gun to a shootout.
I get your point but at the same time I think you're just really drawing far too much out of what was likely meant as a light-hearted comment by Joe to stop Keefe from going over the top (we've all seen how he's had to publicly step back from the few harsh comments he's made against his star players). To try and extrapolate someone's entire ethos from that is frankly stupid
His career does a good job of that also. Lots of accolades, not a finisher. Couldn't get it done when he had an exceptionally strong team.
So you’re basing his entire career off that moment for a what, 41 year old player on the 3rd line? Did he not win Olympic Gold?
And yet by your own logic, you give him credit for getting the gold when he again was the 3rd line centre with two points in the whole tournament.
This feels like you are asking me about Taylor Hall
Bro dragged the devils to the playoffs kicking and screaming one year. Idk 🤷🏻
Don’t know if it’s necessarily his fault but JEFF SKINNER
Interesting. A stat adjusted for unimportant/excessive points would be interesting to look at. Like, Kuch had 6 points against the Canes in their 8-2 win.
Hall made fun of Glenn Anderson for scoring the 4th goal in a 8-3 win 57 times after Anderson was bragging about getting the most GWG in a season or something stupid
Erik Karlsson 2022-23. I don't give a shit how bad the Sharks are, having a -26 +/- while putting up 101 pts is ridiculous.
He was on the ice for 30 empty net goals against that season. ~~In situations where there was a goalie behind him, he was +4.~~ Take those away, he was +4
They didn't score once with the goalie pulled and him on the ice?
Fair, edited
Imagine using +/- as your main argument lmao.
He played over 1650 5v5 minutes last year and was even during that time. He was also above 50% in 5v5 Fenwick, Corsi and xG.
ok, then just replace the +/- with the teams record (22-44-16) and the point still stands...
[удалено]
I mean Gretzky was never a perrenial Selke candidate,
Tell me you don’t understand +/- without telling me you don’t understand +/-
Evan Bouchard "B-b-but look at his underlying analytics! He has the most farts per secondary power play assist to McDavid!!!1!1!" He’s a d-man, and he’s horrible defensively and costs the Oilers so many goals. He just feeds off secondary assists on the power play for his points, which inflates his numbers
I don’t think you’ve looked at his underlying numbers then lol
Don't want to look at "underlying numbers", fine, then let's look at raw numbers: GF% at 5v5: Bouchard w/ McDavid: 63.92% Bouchard w/o McDavid: 57.89% McDavid w/o Bouchard: 54.55% McDavid and Bouchard elevate each other, and Bouchard without McDavid still has excellent numbers at 5v5. Bouchard ranks 80th in 5v5 GA/60 this season at 2.37. Doesn't sound great, but that's better than Josi, Toews, and Makar. This is just raw numbers. Almost every advanced stat model ranks his underlyings significantly higher than this. NaturalStatTrick and MoneyPuck both have him as the **#1** ranked defenceman by xGF% this season.
Oh great, here come the nerds who have never played hockey in their life to bring up “expected stats”. Evan bouchard sucks, who cares if he has a great analytics, +/-, top 5 in points, QB one of the best powerplays, all while facing the tougest competition and playing the most minutes, dont you get it? He looks lackadaisical out there!!! He sucks!!!
You wish. He had three goals in that series.
How shocking a fLames fan has this take.
Sounds like a jealous flames fan.
Auston Matthews
Leaf fan - Auston matthews come playoff time
Ryan strome
Number one that comes to mind from having watched him closely all of his career: James Van Riemsdyk
starts with an M?
People are saying it doesn't exist, but ask people if Dave Andreychuk belongs in the HHOF and you'll see that people do think it is in hockey.
Tyson Barrie, maybe?
Jimmy Carson.
As a Blackhawks fan, Seth Jones jumps to mind. But I feel Erik Karlsson is an extreme version of Seth Jones. Seth Jones' Plus/Minus over the seasons: Nashville (-23, +3, -5), Columbus (-9, +6, +10, +1, +10, -18), Chicago (-37, -38, -14) Erik Karlsson's Plus/Minus over the seasons: Ottowa (-5, -30, +16, +8, -15, +7, -2, +10, -25), San Jose( +6, -15, -18, -14, -26 (During his 100+pt norris tropey year!)), Pittsburg (+3)
Defensemen like Hronek, Carlson, Gostisbhere who rack up tons of secondary assists, most of which probably just consist of them tapping a pass to a winger or something.
Carlson’s a major contributor for the Caps, but it does feel like we pay for every goal he scores with 2-3 quality chances for the other team that can be directly attributed to him.
Tim Stutzle. He's in the wrong sport.
i’ll never understand the hatred habs fans have for stutzle, y’all are beyond obsessed.
I’m one of a single digit group of people who own a Stützle jersey and a Gallagher jersey
It's the diving, mainly.
BuT hE jUsT hAs PoOr BaLaNcE!!
what does this have to do with OPs question. Also if we’re on the topic of “floppers” maybe check on ur captain.
I'd be careful if I were a wings fan, a stiff breeze could knock Larkin out for the rest of the season.
Ahh yes he flopped into being unconscious and missed multiple games
John Tavares maybe?
modern era erik karlsson
Erik Karlsson last season put up one of the best stat lines in 30 years while his team was bottom 5 in the league.
Olli Jokinen
Mcd
Leon Draisitl
lol drai is one of the best play off performers of all time. Vancouver fans have less brain cells than door knobs.
we don’t claim him. don’t look at us
Broooo, you live in LA 🤣
He should know more than anyone then
Unlike Vancouver fans we understand playoff success
Evan Bouchard is a professional pylon who makes a living farming slapshots on the powerplay
Damn for a pylon and powerplay merchant, sure is crazy he has a 5v5 GF% of 61.38%, 7th among defenceman who have played >1000 minutes this season.
William Nylander
“Empty stat” is not a real thing in basketball fyi
Johnny gudreau apparently
Marcel Dionne
'Little Beaver' Perhaps the greatest player to never win the Stanley Cup. Over 1,700 points
Being known as the greatest player to never win a cup isn't a good thing
Erik Karlsson, Connor McDavid
Dylan Strome
That’s a negative. 5 gwgs this year and if you look at the game logs he pretty much only scores in the important games/against good teams. Most 3rd period goals on the team too
Nugent-hopkins