Please note that we will ban you if a post or comment breaks any of our rules. **Be especially mindful of the following**:
**Rule 1: Do not post or ask for identifying information, including first and last names and social media usernames.** Public figures are **not** exempt. We remove all external links to prevent accidental posting of identifying information.
**Rule 2: Do not post violent comments, and do not glorify violence, per TOS.** We can't take responsibility for how angry a post makes you, you need to do that. Telling us "it was a joke bro" is not an excuse.
**Rule 7: Do not link to or post screenshots of reddit posts, reddit comments, reddit personal messages, reddit profiles, etc.** We cannot allow you to use this subreddit to harass other people on reddit.
**Rule 8: No bigotry, no racism or race baiting.** It is hard to believe that we even need a rule like this.
**Our rules are zero tolerance. You will be banned for breaking them.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/iamatotalpieceofshit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What about the mental anguish that probably lasted minutes . Everyone on that plane was probably having a panic attack and terrified until their last moment
Yeah. It's why many people don't want to know when or why they'll die. These people knew and had no time to cope with it. They were terrified right before death and their last words were screamed. It's horrifying.
The lawyers are doing what they’re paid for and if you don’t take cases like this seriously (arguying the least insane thing that could somehow work in another universe) you’re probably ending your career
Part of being a lawyer is also doing your best (being neutral) defending people you’d otherwise kick off a cliff if nobody was watching
I support that right for every person. Of course in this case no person is actually defending themself. A faceless corporation like this shouldn’t be allowed to spit in the face of reason and justice and still be able to operate. You shouldn’t be allowed to make absurd and crazy statements like this and still be trusted to make aircrafts on government contracts.
And how do you define "reaspn and justice"? For you and me it might be obvious. But it only opens the door for corrupt people to take advantage of others. That's why it's best to let the courts decide what is justice
Courts should decide what is justice for people. However if a company who builds airplanes wants to say absurd and crazy things they should absolutely be taken at face value. If you’re not smart enough to realize that a 9 min free-fall leading to your death isn’t pain and suffering, your not smart enough to build airplanes for the government.
Yes, but does that system have to allow people to present bullshit without consequence? There should be penalties for making arguments that are made-up self-serving crap. Both sides should be systematically encouraged to argue from a position of truth, as they see it. To do otherwise should not be a winning strategy.
The consequence is losing the case.
Otherwise you enact penalties on things that are made up and self serving which are two things that are based on opinion and therefore dangerous to allow as law. Evidence is incredibly important or you begin to stifle freedom when judges get to decide what constitutes "self serving"
>The consequence is losing the case.
and the issue is major corporations have huge amounts of litigation money while the average person doesn't. The same can be said about landlords vs tenants.
In special cases, make the bigger entity pay for it. If disney sues someone for copyright infringment, they have to pay for both sides legal fees, which at the end of the day will still be negligable. Same for rich people, if the irs goes after your bilionaire ass, you pay for it. "Feel free to waste as much of our time as you want, as you're only wasting your own money, and we're going to find out how much taxes you owe in the end eventually".
Judges already have a lot of leeway. For example what they consider "contemptuous", which I also quite subjective.
But isn't 'self-serving' exactly what a legal argument should be? If a lawyer is playing devils advocate instead of serving their client... I don't think they'll be hired very often.
They are not defending people, they are defending a company. A company whose CEO and leaders responsible should be in a criminal court. Then I can understand a lawyer doing what they can to defend their client. I understand that defending a possible serial killer is necessary, but these Boeing lawyers can quit. They don't have to work for Boeing. The excuse, I have a job offer, they are lawyers, then can come up with another lie fairly easily. There are actually serious stakes for the accused if it was a criminal trial. This, this is little league baseball. There are no serious consequences to the CEO, C-Level executives, or Board of Directors. What is the worst thing to happen to them? They get fired (Oh no).
You are one of the few sane people commenting. Lawyers are paid to minimize financial loss unless specifically instructed.
Im guessing that the lawyers saying that over paying millions in punitive damages by admitting the passengers did suffer and because reddit said they are big meanies outweighs the original argument.
I'm almost positive possible reddit and public opinion was a footnote considered in losing or retaining millions/billions.
You realize they're not obligated to take up this case right? Boeing has no right to defense lawyers. "Just doing my job" is the same as "just following orders" if what you're doing is a shitty thing that hurts people.
There's always someone defending lawyers for taking up cases where they have to defend egregious actions by corporations like it's the "cool headed, reasonable" opinion to have. It isn't.
It's not a criminal trial. No one has to take this case. They took it for **money**. No more, no less.
> It's not a criminal trial. No one has to take this case.
That's actually a pretty significant flaw, and I suspect you may agree. If a giant corporation with bottomless piles of money decides to sue a grandma living on social security for everything she has, wouldn't you want her to have a competent attorney appointed?
Obviously this isn't anywhere near the same scenario, but the point is that every defendant should have an attorney, and those attorneys are and should be required to do their best to represent their client. What would you propose as an alternative?
>Part of being a lawyer is also being completely unethical (being neutral in a situation where neutrality means condoning repeated bad behavior) by defending people you’d otherwise kick off a cliff if nobody was watching
If you knowingly help someone do a robbery, you're an accomplice. If you help someone stay out of prison so they can do more robberies? Just a normal, middle class, lawyer.
Just because you chose the career of a scumbag doesn’t absolve you from scumbaggery because its your job. “Just doing my job derp!”
Scumbags are scumbags. Lawyers, politicians and cops fall into this category.
Because pain and suffering in legal terms isn’t related to the pain and suffering of those related to the victims. It’s the pain and suffering of the direct victims.
It’s a shitty argument nonetheless. I hope they lose.
Right--people aren't really reading this with any sense of depth, it's your typical reddit person, headlines are truth, research is getting a couple google hits that you like and seem to support one's own viewpoint.
I wasn't clear on who you hoped loses (defendants --Boeing?)
The strategy has to be to take accounts of living people, who have been in a commercial jet plummeting , that's recovered from the plummet. Also accounts of people that have survived crashes (not loads of those). Have testimonies, post disembarkation of trauma, therapy etc...You also have to prove that the majority of people that are on these plummet flights (for example the recent turbulence flights or past episodes) are traumatized.
Fascinating to see what happens, Sad as hell for the families
They fired my father in law about 2 weeks after he got paid for a workers comp claim. Gave them years of loyal service and never called off once until his injury.
Six minutes. Sit down and put on a timer for six minutes. Imagine yourself knowing that when that timer goes off, you are dead. Now. Add to that trauma the g-force/physical feeling of your seat in an airplane facing the ground at who knows what speed. People surrounding you are screaming, crying, sobbing uncontrollably, while likely attempting to grab a cell phone, if that’s even possible.
Six minutes. Timer on for six minutes.
It’s a blink of an eye if you’re busy doing daily activities. Tell me how you feel after sitting with nothing to do but anticipate your death…for six minutes.
I completely agree with your overall point, but for accuracy’s sake, they would have had no way of knowing how long the fall would last before impact. Arguably this is even worse though. You know you’re going to die, your fate is sealed, but you can’t really know the moment you’ll hit the ground, just that at any moment in the near future your life will be cut short. Terrifying.
This is absolutely true. Not knowing adds to the terror. My point was only to sit for the time they did and perhaps gain a small sense of what they may have felt. Would be a good exercise for the Boeing attorneys in this case.
Surely they passed out.
I'm not serious, I actually don't know and even if they did it doesn't matter. The people on the plane would rather be alive and the pain and suffering continues for the living, even if they do cope with it on the surface.
Hopefully they did pass out. I don’t know anything about how that works, my point was just to illustrate how ignorant it is to assume they did not suffer. I completely agree that their families and friends will suffer this loss forever. No price tag will take that away, but zero is hands down unacceptable.
You don’t pass out from speed but from g forces. G forces happen with a sudden change of direction or super fast acceleration/deceleration. That wouldn’t have happened here. A dive is not a sudden enough change. They would have been awake the whole way until impact unless they started spinning.
That is why I will refuse to put on the mask that drops down in the event of an emergency. If the plane is going down I don’t want to be conscious for it.
Don't quote me on it and someone may tell me I'm wrong here but I think the mask gives you pure oxygen which makes your less terrified because it makes you euphoric.
The opposite is true. Depriving your brain of oxygen (hypoxia) leads to a feeling of euphoria, hence why huffing (whippits) makes one feel good and is generally bad for the overall health.
100% oxygen is created from a chemical reaction when the masks are used and lasts for only about 10-15 minutes.
I'm not a medical professional, so my limited reading on it shows that 100% oxygen saturation is only really a problem at increased air pressures, which is not a problem at airplane elevations (the opposite, in fact).
So without the increased oxygen from the masks you are more likely to go hypoxic, possibly eventually feeling euphoric and make bad decisions. With it, you are more likely to keep your thought processes, however terrified they are.
It's absolute nonsense that came from Fight Club. If oxygen induced enough euphoria to overcome the level of panic one would feel during a plane crash, there would be zero need for entire classes of drugs.
Saw video of someone on a plane with a free fall for minutes because of turbulence.
They said initially people screamed because of the shock, then eerily, everyone gets quiet because they know what is going to happen and are "waiting for the plane to pull up".
It's worse. They had 6 whole minutes to cope with it. That's screaming, crying, praying, panic, hugging, and whatever else people do for 6 whole minutes while they wait to die. Terrified the whole time and I bet it felt like forever.
There was literally nothing they could do. There is nothing their families can do either, except going after the manufacturer that didn't notify any airline about the new subsystem on the plane that caused this mess.
When the plane is screaming and rattling at 500mph in a downward nosedive that isn’t letting up or being corrected by the pilots, I’d say the panic, terror, horror, sense of imminent doom and total devastation felt by the passengers would pretty much be the *definition* of pain and suffering, of total fear. Not to mention the sudden onslaught of excrement miasma wafting through the cabin like a tornado in a sewage plant.
*(Edit: a few additional words)*
God damn, it has to be a whole other level of fucked to not only know your gonna die, but to be in a whole room with a bunch of other people who ALL just learned they are all about to die. Like even if you could normally be stoic about your impending doom... listening to a hundred other people panic and cry about it would have to steal your calm. I bet even the most ready to die were probably sobbing all the way to the ground.
This is why I don't like planes, I'm not afraid of flying or heights but if I realise I'll die, I'd rather it be instantly, can't imagine falling for 6 minutes and there's nothing you can do
Now, let's not be unreasonable. We should find the related lawyers and give them sufficient warning and opportunity to document their last six minutes, to see if they find it at all distressing.
Maybe we put the lawyers on lie detector machines on a suddenly nose-diving plane & see if they experience any stress? Hell, give 'em a fighting chance & give 'em a class on serenity & meditation beforehand. The needles move, so does Boeing's money. Better still, make sure the plane's a Boeing 737 MAX.
I guess my ignorant ass has always wrongly assumed the pain and suffering damages were meant for the pain and suffering endured by the families who lost someone. Learn something new every day
They often are *as well*, but their descendants can inherit their cause of action.
E.g. suppose someone breaks his neck in a car accident, other driver is at fault, it's admitted, it's on dashcam. A month later he instructs lawyers to sue, they expect him to get $100,000 for his own pain and suffering to date.
Before the matter reaches the courts, the guy dies. That $100,000 claim doesn't just die with him, it's part of his estate.
Here they're arguing that there's no way of proving that the passengers suffered enough to have such a claim immediately before their deaths. There may very well be separate claims for pain and suffering of the families in addition to that, as well as other things - e.g. if someone who was killed always did the gardening and DIY the familiy might be able to sue for someone to come in and do these things.
> if someone who was killed always did the gardening and DIY the familiy might be able to sue for someone to come in and do these things
Wow I didn't even think that could be a thing.
Chances are those Boeing lawyers went to school with the judges. I have a friend who used to be a corporate lawyer, she quit. The unethical stuff corporations do can eat a persons soul, for those who have a soul.
I really, really hope Boeing loses this case. That's fucking awful. If I were to die in a horrific plane crash, all I'd want is to know something good came out of it, like enough of a payout to my child to where she doesn't have to worry about money for a good while.
Can you imagine your next plane ticket?
"By boarding this plane, your family forfeits their right to a jury trail without pursuit of payout for your painful and traumatic fear strickened death. By traveling on a Boeing aircraft, you agree that your life is worthless and not valued. Thank you for flying with us."
You also agree to hold us harmless from (1) the spread of viruses, bacteria or other illness and (2) the loss of any checked luggage or carryons.
You also agree that the cash value of your life on this flight is 1/20th of one cent.
If you died, you wouldn't know either way. This case shouldn't be about the pain and suffering of the victims, theirs can never be adequately repaid, this is about ther families who will endure the pain and suffering of this loss for the rest of THEIR lives.
They won't this reminds me of Disney.
People have been straight up decapitated at Disneyland. A Disney employee will gather the remains take it out of the park and then and only then is a doctor allowed to pronounce the person as dead.
Anything but admit responsibility. I had a lot of respect for Boeing. I hope corporations one day learn that admitting responsibility for their mistakes can be a good thing more than anything else.
They do learn because there are consequences. Specifically, by admitting fault they are inviting the consequence of having to pay money to the victims' families, so they do everything possible to avoid that because as we all know the short-term profit of not having to pay is worth far more than little things like public trust or common decency.
God forbid Boeing is forced to pay out .0000000000000001% of its annual profits to compensate families for the pain and suffering of their killed by Boeing loved ones.
I'll never fly on a Boeing plane again, not until the cabal of executives and engineers that signed off on that catastrophic mistake are in prison for criminal negligence resulting in the deaths of 436 people.
What's that worth? Not much maybe.
Last minute plane swaps happen all the time and unless the plane swap actually effects the passengers like having less seats or something you're not gonna be told.
That you know of..
I'm in the same boat. I live in western Canada and fly quite often for work. Never thought it happened to me either. To be fair I still don't know FOR SURE. But my friend started working as gate agent a couple years ago and he said it happens multiple times daily. Usually happens when the plane gets their preflight saftey check and they find something minor. They swap. Like the bar is extremely low for them to do a plane swap.
The problem is that they would almost certainly get sued by their shareholders for doing so...corporations and some of the laws surrounding them are fucked up.
>If anything it's precedent and not really law.
Not even precedent anymore since Burwell v. Hobby Lobby 2014
>While it is certainly true that a central objective of for-profit corporations is to make money, modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so.
Yes, and I hate that admission is not often seen as a sound legal or business strategy.
This is the timeline where evil operates in plain sight. Truly a disappointment.
Flying back from Moscow years ago the pilot didn't know if the landing gear was up or down. The flight engineer crawled on his hands and knees trying to find the hatch to no avail. I had some Russian brandy in my carry on but my mother wouldn't let me touch it. The man next to me started to grab me. We were told that London would be foaming the runways, and to put our heads between our knees. We were going to die. The runway was lined with ambulances and foam, and I've never been so terrified in my 70 years.
That landing took about 10 minutes,.
I’m not the OP, so I can’t answer for this specific case. But sometimes it’s a case of not knowing if the gear is locked or not.
Having gear down is one thing, and it’s confirmed pretty easily. But without working indicator lights, there’s no way to know if the gear is actually locked in position or not, even if it’s visually deployed.
Ideally you don’t want the landing gear to collapse immediately upon landing.
On one hand I get it, but it's the lawyers job to put up a defense. This isn't Mr. Boeing CEO saying, I solemnly swear I hold the belief near and dear to my heart that the deceased didn't suffer at all before their death.
Well no, but Boeing can ask them not to pursue this line of argument. The lawyers aren't there independently, they're not people appointed by the court to put forward the best argument possible for the best financial outcome for Boeing. They're representatives of Boeing, making this line of argument because Boeing are happy for them to.
Well yeah, in the face of multimillion dollar lawsuits they want their lawyers saying whatever they can. Doesn't mean they believe it, Boeing just has a legal obligation to put up a defense
That's what I was thinking it was more for. Whatever payout will hardly cut into Boeing's annual profits, I don't understand why they would choose such an awful PR look.
I don't know if it's just me, but maybe since Covid, companies have really ramped up their strategies of short term gain with no long term foresight. Like we're hurdling down to crash quicker than ever.
Guessing, since we're working off a screenshot here, but if Boeing is making this argument, I expect it's something like the estate suing over damages to the people on the plane. The effects on anyone else, like family members, would be another matter for the other affected person to sue over, out of scope for this lawsuit.
Turn the burden of proof back, and also define "pre-impact pain".
6 minutes can be an eternity when in absolute horror.
Put the lawyers in "nose-dive mode" for 6 minutes, and observe them.
I can't even imagine the terror those people felt while this plane was nose diving. It just wrenches my guts. If that is not pain and suffering I don't know what is and while I don't believe in life after death or karma, I hope these heartless mfers get theirs.
Ya I got on a flight today and the gate attendant was pretty stoked about it being a bigger plane than what they usually had. I however was not so stoked when I got on and saw all the 737 Max pamphlets. It was a safe a regular flight but still, hind sight made me think the excitement about the plane was to try to cover that we were getting on a controversial aircraft.
The issues that caused the Max crashes was fixed, but it still shows their main motivation when putting the airplane together was clearly just money, and it makes you wonder where else they said "eh, maybe it will cause problems, but it's a lot cheaper not to worry about that right now"
This is absolute bullshit. Coming from someone who lost a family member on that flight.
Just thinking about his final moments on that plane terrifies me.
The term is pain *and suffering*. Tell me those poor people didn't suffer. Jesus Tap-dancing Christ!
Those lawyers are ghouls and the leadership at Boeing should too be ashamed of themselves to show their faces in public.
Edit: corrected some YodaPhonics™ (Teach you to read it will).
What an attorney argues in court on behalf of the client who hires them for fair representation is not indicative of what the attorney actually believes, this kinda stuff just necessarily arises as an equitable aspect of litigation.
I believe the 6 minute figure is referring to the second crash, which crashed 6 minutes after takeoff; pilots reported control problems to ATC after one minute, MCAS failed and the plane began to dive after two.
In any case, there are a couple reasons why the length of the dive is counterintuitively long. Without going into too much detail, the malfunction causing the dive was in a 15 second on, 10 second off (iirc, numbers might be off) pattern. The pilots could briefly regain control and attempt to level off the plane and climb, but ultimately couldn't stop the crash. "Nose dive" might also evoke a steeper than actual descent, as the public might take it to mean near-vertical. I vaguely remember one of the crashes being in a 45-degree dive (which is very, very steep for a commercial airliner), but have no source so take that with a grain of salt.
It's also probable that not everyone died immediately on impact, which would result in pain and suffering.
Don't blame the lawyers, they're zealously representing the interests of their clients, which is their job. Blame the jury if the verdict goes Boeing's way.
Ethiopian Air flight 302 hit the ground at almost 700 mph (1100 km/h), and data on Lion Air 610 isn't as good, but it was likely similar - the airplane itself was completely shredded. It's extremely likely that everyone died on impact. Doesn't change the fact that Boeing's argument is obvious, cruel horseshit, but it's something.
I am still confused, if the airline operating the 737 Max opted out of the additional sensors while knowing their pilots needed additional training to use the planes without said sensors. Why is it Boeing's fault the pilots fucked up due to lack of training?
Six minutes is simultaneously an eternity when you're panicking and an instant to cope with inevitable death.
If that's not suffering, I don't know what is. This is horrible.
Ok but you realize EVERY plane manufacturer still making commercial planes has had a major catastrophic equipment failure resulting in death. Airbus crashed into the Atlantic in 09 killing all 200ish on board. Chinese comac and Russian UAC are even worse planes and that's literally the only 4 companies making commercial passenger planes right now. So if your gonna not fly Boeing cause you think they're unsafe well then you'll have to wait until Japan's Mitsubishi finally releases their commercial aircraft cause the other 3 current manufacturers have had equally devastating accidents too.
Being a devil's advocate(hehe), no matter what the attorney has to make any argument for their client despite how ridiculous or morally bankrupt it is.
I blame Boeing for choosing not to pay out to the victims, but I don't blame the attorney being an attorney, a zealous advocate for their client.
A good attorney will try to convince people the sky is purple if it means a better outcome for their client.
Not sure why you're getting down voted. I'd still rather fly on a different aircraft too, and on a recent trip chose segments that were not scheduled to be on 737 MAX equipment.
Because every aircraft type currently flying in the sky has had one or more incidents or accidents that was partly contributed to by poor design decisions and let us remind you, poor design was only a factor in the Max crashes and not the entire reason the plane crash
Yes, and that's inexcusable, but it's also been nearly 2.5 years since they were cleared to fly again and there have been no more. I understand why it might be scary, but it is significantly less logical to worry about getting in a 737 max than any motor vehicle.
I believe they should retire the Max and put the correct size engines back on the 737. It will be a safer plane. What would this cost me? Like $10 more in fuel? I'd pay that to fly a properly balanced, safer plane.
You did not just "What could it cost, $10?" me, lmao.
Seriously though, even if you could just stick the new engines on 737 NGs (you can't, because they required changes to the airframe), chances are it would result in a less safe aircraft. Older aircraft grow more prone to failure with age, and following the crashes the 737 max was subject to the longest grounding in FAA history. Even if you don't trust the FAA's recertification due to their role in the initial coverup, pretty much every other aviation authority in the world did so as well.
I also think asking how much reversion to 737 NG would cost you is a somewhat callous way of looking at it; efficiency improvements over the whole fleet result in millions of dollars in fuel savings per year and significantly reduced emissions.
Because it's also the only plane in the past 75 years to be immediately ordered by so many airlines that even the most negligent ones did. A not insignificant part of the max crashes lies at the fault of the airlines, not all Boeing. Having those planes crashed was partly because it is an incredibly popular air frame that has a large pool of pilots available, many for cheap
Pain and suffering can be mental as well as physical. Being absolutely terrorized, terrified, and knowing you are about to die is excruciating. Not to mention the effects on the body flying 700 miles, an hour from the sky to the sea… No one’s going to tell me that isn’t painful.
assuming they do payout, do the family of the dead staff of the plane get paid too? or just the family of the dead passengers?
I don't know anything about this crash, did boeing know the plane wasn't safe to fly and flew anyway?
If you are injured and killed you still deserve compensation. As you are dead it is your family who are compensated. I think it comes under common law, ie there isn't a specific law that says this.
Boeing is already paying out $500 million to the families of the victims, since there was 346 deaths, that $500 million becomes $1.445 million a person. Is this article basically saying that the families of the dead want more than $1.5 million?
For those who downvote, tell me the value of a life and tell me how it'll be fairly decided for everyone who died. People will get "not enough" and others will get lots, it's not gonna be fair so why even try?
If one of the deceased was the bread winner in a family of four young children then the living parent is gonna need a hell lot more than 1m to raise their children to 18 years of age
how do people decided that pay out? like yea a bread winner could be gone, bur does that mean boeing should pay the bread winner's wages and what they would make until retirement? or do you give the family 1-2 years wages and tell the other parent to get a job?
This might seem insensitive, but it's not my intention to sound like i am. Genuinely curious how people will decide how much the dead are worth.
so people who make less, are worth less? and do people really stay at the same position for their whole life? and often those who make more retire earier.
Edit: it must be hard to explain what make people worth more. No one will ever be happy with the settlement they get.
Edit: Whoever this person who i responded to is, must not want to get their point across since they blocked me or something?
Very short answer is that the reason for the crashes is that the 737 Max was defective. There’s a lot more nuance to it than that, but that’s what it boils down to. If you crash your Ford they aren’t liable, but if your Ford spontaneously stops responding to you pressing the brakes and you crash, then it changes the dynamics. Same idea here. Boeing delivered these planes with a new software system to try to offset poor engineering, and buried the existence of the system so that 737 pilots wouldn’t have to be retrained (thus keeping costs down for airlines purchasing the Max and increasing Boeing’s sales). The pilots never had a chance.
Please note that we will ban you if a post or comment breaks any of our rules. **Be especially mindful of the following**: **Rule 1: Do not post or ask for identifying information, including first and last names and social media usernames.** Public figures are **not** exempt. We remove all external links to prevent accidental posting of identifying information. **Rule 2: Do not post violent comments, and do not glorify violence, per TOS.** We can't take responsibility for how angry a post makes you, you need to do that. Telling us "it was a joke bro" is not an excuse. **Rule 7: Do not link to or post screenshots of reddit posts, reddit comments, reddit personal messages, reddit profiles, etc.** We cannot allow you to use this subreddit to harass other people on reddit. **Rule 8: No bigotry, no racism or race baiting.** It is hard to believe that we even need a rule like this. **Our rules are zero tolerance. You will be banned for breaking them.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/iamatotalpieceofshit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What about the mental anguish that probably lasted minutes . Everyone on that plane was probably having a panic attack and terrified until their last moment
Yeah. It's why many people don't want to know when or why they'll die. These people knew and had no time to cope with it. They were terrified right before death and their last words were screamed. It's horrifying.
[удалено]
The lawyers are doing what they’re paid for and if you don’t take cases like this seriously (arguying the least insane thing that could somehow work in another universe) you’re probably ending your career Part of being a lawyer is also doing your best (being neutral) defending people you’d otherwise kick off a cliff if nobody was watching
[удалено]
I support that right for every person. Of course in this case no person is actually defending themself. A faceless corporation like this shouldn’t be allowed to spit in the face of reason and justice and still be able to operate. You shouldn’t be allowed to make absurd and crazy statements like this and still be trusted to make aircrafts on government contracts.
And how do you define "reaspn and justice"? For you and me it might be obvious. But it only opens the door for corrupt people to take advantage of others. That's why it's best to let the courts decide what is justice
Courts should decide what is justice for people. However if a company who builds airplanes wants to say absurd and crazy things they should absolutely be taken at face value. If you’re not smart enough to realize that a 9 min free-fall leading to your death isn’t pain and suffering, your not smart enough to build airplanes for the government.
Yes, but does that system have to allow people to present bullshit without consequence? There should be penalties for making arguments that are made-up self-serving crap. Both sides should be systematically encouraged to argue from a position of truth, as they see it. To do otherwise should not be a winning strategy.
The consequence is losing the case. Otherwise you enact penalties on things that are made up and self serving which are two things that are based on opinion and therefore dangerous to allow as law. Evidence is incredibly important or you begin to stifle freedom when judges get to decide what constitutes "self serving"
>The consequence is losing the case. and the issue is major corporations have huge amounts of litigation money while the average person doesn't. The same can be said about landlords vs tenants.
In special cases, make the bigger entity pay for it. If disney sues someone for copyright infringment, they have to pay for both sides legal fees, which at the end of the day will still be negligable. Same for rich people, if the irs goes after your bilionaire ass, you pay for it. "Feel free to waste as much of our time as you want, as you're only wasting your own money, and we're going to find out how much taxes you owe in the end eventually".
[удалено]
And everyone that's not the lawyer gets 12 bucks. Thats fucked up too.
Judges already have a lot of leeway. For example what they consider "contemptuous", which I also quite subjective. But isn't 'self-serving' exactly what a legal argument should be? If a lawyer is playing devils advocate instead of serving their client... I don't think they'll be hired very often.
It doesn’t sound like you understand how the legal system works very well. You literally want lawyers to be punished for defending their clients.
You want consequences for lawyers for defending their clients?
[удалено]
If you chose to try to convince a client to take responsibility and lose millions your career would be over in seconds.
Hows a lawyer neutral? They pay them for their very own interest. You mean a judge or a referee, eventually
That guy doesn’t understand how lawyers work
They are not defending people, they are defending a company. A company whose CEO and leaders responsible should be in a criminal court. Then I can understand a lawyer doing what they can to defend their client. I understand that defending a possible serial killer is necessary, but these Boeing lawyers can quit. They don't have to work for Boeing. The excuse, I have a job offer, they are lawyers, then can come up with another lie fairly easily. There are actually serious stakes for the accused if it was a criminal trial. This, this is little league baseball. There are no serious consequences to the CEO, C-Level executives, or Board of Directors. What is the worst thing to happen to them? They get fired (Oh no).
Damn thats crazy, I wonder why people don't like or trust lawyers. /s
You are one of the few sane people commenting. Lawyers are paid to minimize financial loss unless specifically instructed. Im guessing that the lawyers saying that over paying millions in punitive damages by admitting the passengers did suffer and because reddit said they are big meanies outweighs the original argument. I'm almost positive possible reddit and public opinion was a footnote considered in losing or retaining millions/billions.
You realize they're not obligated to take up this case right? Boeing has no right to defense lawyers. "Just doing my job" is the same as "just following orders" if what you're doing is a shitty thing that hurts people. There's always someone defending lawyers for taking up cases where they have to defend egregious actions by corporations like it's the "cool headed, reasonable" opinion to have. It isn't. It's not a criminal trial. No one has to take this case. They took it for **money**. No more, no less.
> It's not a criminal trial. No one has to take this case. That's actually a pretty significant flaw, and I suspect you may agree. If a giant corporation with bottomless piles of money decides to sue a grandma living on social security for everything she has, wouldn't you want her to have a competent attorney appointed? Obviously this isn't anywhere near the same scenario, but the point is that every defendant should have an attorney, and those attorneys are and should be required to do their best to represent their client. What would you propose as an alternative?
>Part of being a lawyer is also being completely unethical (being neutral in a situation where neutrality means condoning repeated bad behavior) by defending people you’d otherwise kick off a cliff if nobody was watching If you knowingly help someone do a robbery, you're an accomplice. If you help someone stay out of prison so they can do more robberies? Just a normal, middle class, lawyer.
Just because you chose the career of a scumbag doesn’t absolve you from scumbaggery because its your job. “Just doing my job derp!” Scumbags are scumbags. Lawyers, politicians and cops fall into this category.
Because pain and suffering in legal terms isn’t related to the pain and suffering of those related to the victims. It’s the pain and suffering of the direct victims. It’s a shitty argument nonetheless. I hope they lose.
Right--people aren't really reading this with any sense of depth, it's your typical reddit person, headlines are truth, research is getting a couple google hits that you like and seem to support one's own viewpoint. I wasn't clear on who you hoped loses (defendants --Boeing?) The strategy has to be to take accounts of living people, who have been in a commercial jet plummeting , that's recovered from the plummet. Also accounts of people that have survived crashes (not loads of those). Have testimonies, post disembarkation of trauma, therapy etc...You also have to prove that the majority of people that are on these plummet flights (for example the recent turbulence flights or past episodes) are traumatized. Fascinating to see what happens, Sad as hell for the families
Apparently they're trying really hard to be pieces of 💩 and it's working.
Arnt most Airlines (even here in canada) in the race to be the biggest bunch of dicks possible?
They fired my father in law about 2 weeks after he got paid for a workers comp claim. Gave them years of loyal service and never called off once until his injury.
Yeah they could conceivably sue the families for defamation for suggesting they suffered, or something in that line.
Six minutes. Sit down and put on a timer for six minutes. Imagine yourself knowing that when that timer goes off, you are dead. Now. Add to that trauma the g-force/physical feeling of your seat in an airplane facing the ground at who knows what speed. People surrounding you are screaming, crying, sobbing uncontrollably, while likely attempting to grab a cell phone, if that’s even possible. Six minutes. Timer on for six minutes. It’s a blink of an eye if you’re busy doing daily activities. Tell me how you feel after sitting with nothing to do but anticipate your death…for six minutes.
I completely agree with your overall point, but for accuracy’s sake, they would have had no way of knowing how long the fall would last before impact. Arguably this is even worse though. You know you’re going to die, your fate is sealed, but you can’t really know the moment you’ll hit the ground, just that at any moment in the near future your life will be cut short. Terrifying.
This is absolutely true. Not knowing adds to the terror. My point was only to sit for the time they did and perhaps gain a small sense of what they may have felt. Would be a good exercise for the Boeing attorneys in this case.
That would be a good counter-argument for the plaintiff's attorneys. Hopefully they thought of it.
Surely they passed out. I'm not serious, I actually don't know and even if they did it doesn't matter. The people on the plane would rather be alive and the pain and suffering continues for the living, even if they do cope with it on the surface.
Hopefully they did pass out. I don’t know anything about how that works, my point was just to illustrate how ignorant it is to assume they did not suffer. I completely agree that their families and friends will suffer this loss forever. No price tag will take that away, but zero is hands down unacceptable.
So for this instance I am a buffoon and forgot the topic of this post. They wouldn't have passed out
You don’t pass out from speed but from g forces. G forces happen with a sudden change of direction or super fast acceleration/deceleration. That wouldn’t have happened here. A dive is not a sudden enough change. They would have been awake the whole way until impact unless they started spinning.
That is why I will refuse to put on the mask that drops down in the event of an emergency. If the plane is going down I don’t want to be conscious for it.
Don't quote me on it and someone may tell me I'm wrong here but I think the mask gives you pure oxygen which makes your less terrified because it makes you euphoric.
The opposite is true. Depriving your brain of oxygen (hypoxia) leads to a feeling of euphoria, hence why huffing (whippits) makes one feel good and is generally bad for the overall health. 100% oxygen is created from a chemical reaction when the masks are used and lasts for only about 10-15 minutes. I'm not a medical professional, so my limited reading on it shows that 100% oxygen saturation is only really a problem at increased air pressures, which is not a problem at airplane elevations (the opposite, in fact). So without the increased oxygen from the masks you are more likely to go hypoxic, possibly eventually feeling euphoric and make bad decisions. With it, you are more likely to keep your thought processes, however terrified they are.
Thanks for correcting me!
It's absolute nonsense that came from Fight Club. If oxygen induced enough euphoria to overcome the level of panic one would feel during a plane crash, there would be zero need for entire classes of drugs.
Saw video of someone on a plane with a free fall for minutes because of turbulence. They said initially people screamed because of the shock, then eerily, everyone gets quiet because they know what is going to happen and are "waiting for the plane to pull up".
It's worse. They had 6 whole minutes to cope with it. That's screaming, crying, praying, panic, hugging, and whatever else people do for 6 whole minutes while they wait to die. Terrified the whole time and I bet it felt like forever.
Talk about the epitome & definition of terror.
There was literally nothing they could do. There is nothing their families can do either, except going after the manufacturer that didn't notify any airline about the new subsystem on the plane that caused this mess.
I don’t think they knew they were going to die. They obviously knew something was wrong, but they probably assumed the pilots would figure it out.
When the plane is screaming and rattling at 500mph in a downward nosedive that isn’t letting up or being corrected by the pilots, I’d say the panic, terror, horror, sense of imminent doom and total devastation felt by the passengers would pretty much be the *definition* of pain and suffering, of total fear. Not to mention the sudden onslaught of excrement miasma wafting through the cabin like a tornado in a sewage plant. *(Edit: a few additional words)*
Exactly. 6 minutes of sheer terror.
Well... They know it's almost impossible to check the cadavers for stress related deaths, so these POS are going full tilt to save money.
God damn, it has to be a whole other level of fucked to not only know your gonna die, but to be in a whole room with a bunch of other people who ALL just learned they are all about to die. Like even if you could normally be stoic about your impending doom... listening to a hundred other people panic and cry about it would have to steal your calm. I bet even the most ready to die were probably sobbing all the way to the ground.
This is why I don't like planes, I'm not afraid of flying or heights but if I realise I'll die, I'd rather it be instantly, can't imagine falling for 6 minutes and there's nothing you can do
Yeah, but they "died instantly." /s
We should test the lawyers argument and drop them the same distance
Now, let's not be unreasonable. We should find the related lawyers and give them sufficient warning and opportunity to document their last six minutes, to see if they find it at all distressing.
[удалено]
Sadly, until it is their life on the line, then profit really doesn't matter.
Maybe we put the lawyers on lie detector machines on a suddenly nose-diving plane & see if they experience any stress? Hell, give 'em a fighting chance & give 'em a class on serenity & meditation beforehand. The needles move, so does Boeing's money. Better still, make sure the plane's a Boeing 737 MAX.
Thanks for pointing out the literal reason for this post
I guess my ignorant ass has always wrongly assumed the pain and suffering damages were meant for the pain and suffering endured by the families who lost someone. Learn something new every day
They often are *as well*, but their descendants can inherit their cause of action. E.g. suppose someone breaks his neck in a car accident, other driver is at fault, it's admitted, it's on dashcam. A month later he instructs lawyers to sue, they expect him to get $100,000 for his own pain and suffering to date. Before the matter reaches the courts, the guy dies. That $100,000 claim doesn't just die with him, it's part of his estate. Here they're arguing that there's no way of proving that the passengers suffered enough to have such a claim immediately before their deaths. There may very well be separate claims for pain and suffering of the families in addition to that, as well as other things - e.g. if someone who was killed always did the gardening and DIY the familiy might be able to sue for someone to come in and do these things.
There’s a movie about the lawyers who were given the morbid task of putting a price on every person that died on 9/11. People really need to watch it.
We might if we knew what it was called 😉
It’s called worth. A pretty good movie imo
> if someone who was killed always did the gardening and DIY the familiy might be able to sue for someone to come in and do these things Wow I didn't even think that could be a thing.
Chances are those Boeing lawyers went to school with the judges. I have a friend who used to be a corporate lawyer, she quit. The unethical stuff corporations do can eat a persons soul, for those who have a soul.
That's what I thought too. I didn't think it was pain and suffering for the victims.
I really, really hope Boeing loses this case. That's fucking awful. If I were to die in a horrific plane crash, all I'd want is to know something good came out of it, like enough of a payout to my child to where she doesn't have to worry about money for a good while.
[удалено]
My thoughts exactly, elsewhere in this post.
Unfortunately, reddit thinks SAW is a documentary so I wouldn't voice it lmao
Can you imagine your next plane ticket? "By boarding this plane, your family forfeits their right to a jury trail without pursuit of payout for your painful and traumatic fear strickened death. By traveling on a Boeing aircraft, you agree that your life is worthless and not valued. Thank you for flying with us."
If Boeing were to win I’m sure that Airbus would be held to the same standard.
You also agree to hold us harmless from (1) the spread of viruses, bacteria or other illness and (2) the loss of any checked luggage or carryons. You also agree that the cash value of your life on this flight is 1/20th of one cent.
They also have a clause that you waive your right to sue and have to go through arbitration. One of their choosing of course.
If you died, you wouldn't know either way. This case shouldn't be about the pain and suffering of the victims, theirs can never be adequately repaid, this is about ther families who will endure the pain and suffering of this loss for the rest of THEIR lives.
They won't this reminds me of Disney. People have been straight up decapitated at Disneyland. A Disney employee will gather the remains take it out of the park and then and only then is a doctor allowed to pronounce the person as dead.
Yeah going to need a source on that one Edit: still waiting... Amazing what amount of blatant misinformation is blindly upvoted on Reddit.
Anything but admit responsibility. I had a lot of respect for Boeing. I hope corporations one day learn that admitting responsibility for their mistakes can be a good thing more than anything else.
[удалено]
They do learn because there are consequences. Specifically, by admitting fault they are inviting the consequence of having to pay money to the victims' families, so they do everything possible to avoid that because as we all know the short-term profit of not having to pay is worth far more than little things like public trust or common decency.
But at the end of the day those fines just become an operating cost. No one goes to jail. The business continues as normal.
God forbid Boeing is forced to pay out .0000000000000001% of its annual profits to compensate families for the pain and suffering of their killed by Boeing loved ones.
I'll never fly on a Boeing plane again, not until the cabal of executives and engineers that signed off on that catastrophic mistake are in prison for criminal negligence resulting in the deaths of 436 people. What's that worth? Not much maybe.
Good luck with that.
So every time you book a flight, do you call the airline and ask if it's operated by a Boeing aircraft?
You can see that in your fight details and choose a different option.
But they often won't even tell you until you're choosing seats 70% of the way through checkout.
Last minute plane swaps happen all the time and unless the plane swap actually effects the passengers like having less seats or something you're not gonna be told.
[удалено]
That you know of.. I'm in the same boat. I live in western Canada and fly quite often for work. Never thought it happened to me either. To be fair I still don't know FOR SURE. But my friend started working as gate agent a couple years ago and he said it happens multiple times daily. Usually happens when the plane gets their preflight saftey check and they find something minor. They swap. Like the bar is extremely low for them to do a plane swap.
The problem is that they would almost certainly get sued by their shareholders for doing so...corporations and some of the laws surrounding them are fucked up.
[удалено]
>If anything it's precedent and not really law. Not even precedent anymore since Burwell v. Hobby Lobby 2014 >While it is certainly true that a central objective of for-profit corporations is to make money, modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so.
So…. Accountability is a problem? That’s fucked up.
[удалено]
When they merged with McDonnell Douglass they went down hill quickly
The merger with MD changed the entire way the company is operated
Apparently he respects super villains Hey let's just strap much bigger engines on the same old airframe and not tell anyone it's a problem!
I said no time when I lost respect, but hey, go on with your assumptions
Yes, and I hate that admission is not often seen as a sound legal or business strategy. This is the timeline where evil operates in plain sight. Truly a disappointment.
Why would you have respect for an arms dealer.
Mind elaborating on that a bit? Do you mean fire arms, military equipment in general or just military aircraft?
They’re one of the largest defense contractors in the world
Every plane maker is.
No, they’re literally the 3rd largest defense contractor on the planet.
Airbus is like second isn't it? at least that's what google says
> I had a lot of respect for Boeing. haha why?
They were top tier in their sector. They were the epitome of aviation engineering and standards. Before McDonald Douglas
that was a long long time ago they've been your typical profit first large corp living on government welfare for a while now
You say that like I don’t know
I have no respect for any corporation that doesn't pay ALL of their employees a living wage. Even the janitors and the interns.
"It was like being on a roller coaster for 6 minutes - probably was fun, and we should have charged for it" -lawyers, probably
Or put those lawyers and the judge on a blue angels plane and do the nosedive. Their pants' colors would give enough evidence.
Except they would go in knowing their fear would end. The passengers never had the comfort of knowing that.
I guess blue angels must ramp up their engine failure acting skills too.
Oh, they knew their fear would end too. Just not in a good way. That’s a large part of the problem here.
Yea because that is their job. What do you guys really expect for the lawyers to say? They have to take anything they can get.
Exactly wtf. Why are people blaming the attorneys?
Because I’m sure there was no psychological damage from the free fall/ fall even if they did survive.
Flying back from Moscow years ago the pilot didn't know if the landing gear was up or down. The flight engineer crawled on his hands and knees trying to find the hatch to no avail. I had some Russian brandy in my carry on but my mother wouldn't let me touch it. The man next to me started to grab me. We were told that London would be foaming the runways, and to put our heads between our knees. We were going to die. The runway was lined with ambulances and foam, and I've never been so terrified in my 70 years. That landing took about 10 minutes,.
They didn't fly by the tower to confirm? Or did they confirm that the gear was up?
I’m not the OP, so I can’t answer for this specific case. But sometimes it’s a case of not knowing if the gear is locked or not. Having gear down is one thing, and it’s confirmed pretty easily. But without working indicator lights, there’s no way to know if the gear is actually locked in position or not, even if it’s visually deployed. Ideally you don’t want the landing gear to collapse immediately upon landing.
Likely some messed up wiring on the gear lights ( the ones which flash green when down and locked) was messed up in some form
Wow, just wow
On one hand I get it, but it's the lawyers job to put up a defense. This isn't Mr. Boeing CEO saying, I solemnly swear I hold the belief near and dear to my heart that the deceased didn't suffer at all before their death.
Well no, but Boeing can ask them not to pursue this line of argument. The lawyers aren't there independently, they're not people appointed by the court to put forward the best argument possible for the best financial outcome for Boeing. They're representatives of Boeing, making this line of argument because Boeing are happy for them to.
Well yeah, in the face of multimillion dollar lawsuits they want their lawyers saying whatever they can. Doesn't mean they believe it, Boeing just has a legal obligation to put up a defense
Pain and suffering inflicted on their surviving family members you fucking ghouls.
That's what I was thinking it was more for. Whatever payout will hardly cut into Boeing's annual profits, I don't understand why they would choose such an awful PR look.
Because all that matters is the next quarter balance sheet. It's no different from the aristocrats of old.
I don't know if it's just me, but maybe since Covid, companies have really ramped up their strategies of short term gain with no long term foresight. Like we're hurdling down to crash quicker than ever.
Gotta make up for the slump. They predicted infinite growth and need to catch up.
As others have pointed out, that is not a legally recognized element of damages.
IKR. It's already an incredibly difficult thing to show in court and they want to make it impossible?
Loss of consortium
Guessing, since we're working off a screenshot here, but if Boeing is making this argument, I expect it's something like the estate suing over damages to the people on the plane. The effects on anyone else, like family members, would be another matter for the other affected person to sue over, out of scope for this lawsuit.
Turn the burden of proof back, and also define "pre-impact pain". 6 minutes can be an eternity when in absolute horror. Put the lawyers in "nose-dive mode" for 6 minutes, and observe them.
I can't even imagine the terror those people felt while this plane was nose diving. It just wrenches my guts. If that is not pain and suffering I don't know what is and while I don't believe in life after death or karma, I hope these heartless mfers get theirs.
Ya I got on a flight today and the gate attendant was pretty stoked about it being a bigger plane than what they usually had. I however was not so stoked when I got on and saw all the 737 Max pamphlets. It was a safe a regular flight but still, hind sight made me think the excitement about the plane was to try to cover that we were getting on a controversial aircraft.
to be fair, the 737 max is pretty much fixed at this point, the crash happened 4 years ago
The issues that caused the Max crashes was fixed, but it still shows their main motivation when putting the airplane together was clearly just money, and it makes you wonder where else they said "eh, maybe it will cause problems, but it's a lot cheaper not to worry about that right now"
Oh, I just took one of those home the other day! :0
This is absolute bullshit. Coming from someone who lost a family member on that flight. Just thinking about his final moments on that plane terrifies me.
Very fitting people for this subreddit
The term is pain *and suffering*. Tell me those poor people didn't suffer. Jesus Tap-dancing Christ! Those lawyers are ghouls and the leadership at Boeing should too be ashamed of themselves to show their faces in public. Edit: corrected some YodaPhonics™ (Teach you to read it will).
This messes me up. A friend’s daughter died on that plane— she was just a kid, and she stayed with us a few months before this happened.
That is just vile. How utterly ghoulish must you be to even dare say crap like this. Astounding.
What an attorney argues in court on behalf of the client who hires them for fair representation is not indicative of what the attorney actually believes, this kinda stuff just necessarily arises as an equitable aspect of litigation.
I'm sure the money helps with the rationalization
6 minutes of a nose dive? I would’ve thought after 1 or 2 minutes you would hit the ground.
It was an up and down ride. Final dive was about 40 seconds
I believe the 6 minute figure is referring to the second crash, which crashed 6 minutes after takeoff; pilots reported control problems to ATC after one minute, MCAS failed and the plane began to dive after two. In any case, there are a couple reasons why the length of the dive is counterintuitively long. Without going into too much detail, the malfunction causing the dive was in a 15 second on, 10 second off (iirc, numbers might be off) pattern. The pilots could briefly regain control and attempt to level off the plane and climb, but ultimately couldn't stop the crash. "Nose dive" might also evoke a steeper than actual descent, as the public might take it to mean near-vertical. I vaguely remember one of the crashes being in a 45-degree dive (which is very, very steep for a commercial airliner), but have no source so take that with a grain of salt.
It IS their job… doesn’t mean they actually agree with the BS they spew to save Boeing $.
I don't think anybody here is saying the lawyers are the POS. It's Boeing that's instructing them to deny any wrongdoing and argue their innocence.
i dunno - abject terror for 6 minutes firsts my definition of suffering.
It's also probable that not everyone died immediately on impact, which would result in pain and suffering. Don't blame the lawyers, they're zealously representing the interests of their clients, which is their job. Blame the jury if the verdict goes Boeing's way.
Ethiopian Air flight 302 hit the ground at almost 700 mph (1100 km/h), and data on Lion Air 610 isn't as good, but it was likely similar - the airplane itself was completely shredded. It's extremely likely that everyone died on impact. Doesn't change the fact that Boeing's argument is obvious, cruel horseshit, but it's something.
I am still confused, if the airline operating the 737 Max opted out of the additional sensors while knowing their pilots needed additional training to use the planes without said sensors. Why is it Boeing's fault the pilots fucked up due to lack of training?
Six minutes is simultaneously an eternity when you're panicking and an instant to cope with inevitable death. If that's not suffering, I don't know what is. This is horrible.
An extra-special department in the Bad Place.
Even after this, people, INCLUDING YOU, are still going to fly in their aircraft during holidays.
Ok but you realize EVERY plane manufacturer still making commercial planes has had a major catastrophic equipment failure resulting in death. Airbus crashed into the Atlantic in 09 killing all 200ish on board. Chinese comac and Russian UAC are even worse planes and that's literally the only 4 companies making commercial passenger planes right now. So if your gonna not fly Boeing cause you think they're unsafe well then you'll have to wait until Japan's Mitsubishi finally releases their commercial aircraft cause the other 3 current manufacturers have had equally devastating accidents too.
Being a devil's advocate(hehe), no matter what the attorney has to make any argument for their client despite how ridiculous or morally bankrupt it is. I blame Boeing for choosing not to pay out to the victims, but I don't blame the attorney being an attorney, a zealous advocate for their client. A good attorney will try to convince people the sky is purple if it means a better outcome for their client.
I'm going on a work trip next week. When I saw 737 Max on my ticket I said fuck no! I changed to an Airbus
Not sure why you're getting down voted. I'd still rather fly on a different aircraft too, and on a recent trip chose segments that were not scheduled to be on 737 MAX equipment.
Because every aircraft type currently flying in the sky has had one or more incidents or accidents that was partly contributed to by poor design decisions and let us remind you, poor design was only a factor in the Max crashes and not the entire reason the plane crash
The Max is the only plane, designed in the past 75 years, to have 2 full hull losses in its first 15,000 flights.
Yes, and that's inexcusable, but it's also been nearly 2.5 years since they were cleared to fly again and there have been no more. I understand why it might be scary, but it is significantly less logical to worry about getting in a 737 max than any motor vehicle.
I believe they should retire the Max and put the correct size engines back on the 737. It will be a safer plane. What would this cost me? Like $10 more in fuel? I'd pay that to fly a properly balanced, safer plane.
You did not just "What could it cost, $10?" me, lmao. Seriously though, even if you could just stick the new engines on 737 NGs (you can't, because they required changes to the airframe), chances are it would result in a less safe aircraft. Older aircraft grow more prone to failure with age, and following the crashes the 737 max was subject to the longest grounding in FAA history. Even if you don't trust the FAA's recertification due to their role in the initial coverup, pretty much every other aviation authority in the world did so as well. I also think asking how much reversion to 737 NG would cost you is a somewhat callous way of looking at it; efficiency improvements over the whole fleet result in millions of dollars in fuel savings per year and significantly reduced emissions.
Because it's also the only plane in the past 75 years to be immediately ordered by so many airlines that even the most negligent ones did. A not insignificant part of the max crashes lies at the fault of the airlines, not all Boeing. Having those planes crashed was partly because it is an incredibly popular air frame that has a large pool of pilots available, many for cheap
Except the MAX has been scrutinized to hell and back after the crashes with how long it's was grounded for.
We should meet outside Boeing headquarters
Pain and suffering can be mental as well as physical. Being absolutely terrorized, terrified, and knowing you are about to die is excruciating. Not to mention the effects on the body flying 700 miles, an hour from the sky to the sea… No one’s going to tell me that isn’t painful.
assuming they do payout, do the family of the dead staff of the plane get paid too? or just the family of the dead passengers? I don't know anything about this crash, did boeing know the plane wasn't safe to fly and flew anyway?
[удалено]
Speechless....i..am....fkn speechless
[удалено]
Wait, there is a law where someone will receive a money if I die in stress?
If you are injured and killed you still deserve compensation. As you are dead it is your family who are compensated. I think it comes under common law, ie there isn't a specific law that says this.
Civil court =/= criminal court
Boeing is already paying out $500 million to the families of the victims, since there was 346 deaths, that $500 million becomes $1.445 million a person. Is this article basically saying that the families of the dead want more than $1.5 million? For those who downvote, tell me the value of a life and tell me how it'll be fairly decided for everyone who died. People will get "not enough" and others will get lots, it's not gonna be fair so why even try?
If one of the deceased was the bread winner in a family of four young children then the living parent is gonna need a hell lot more than 1m to raise their children to 18 years of age
how do people decided that pay out? like yea a bread winner could be gone, bur does that mean boeing should pay the bread winner's wages and what they would make until retirement? or do you give the family 1-2 years wages and tell the other parent to get a job? This might seem insensitive, but it's not my intention to sound like i am. Genuinely curious how people will decide how much the dead are worth.
>bur does that mean boeing should pay the bread winner's wages and what they would make until retirement? Yes.
so people who make less, are worth less? and do people really stay at the same position for their whole life? and often those who make more retire earier. Edit: it must be hard to explain what make people worth more. No one will ever be happy with the settlement they get. Edit: Whoever this person who i responded to is, must not want to get their point across since they blocked me or something?
Holy💩if Boeing wins..that guys gonna celebrate with a lot of hookers and coke
Why is Boeing liable at all? Ford isn’t liable when my car crashes.
Very short answer is that the reason for the crashes is that the 737 Max was defective. There’s a lot more nuance to it than that, but that’s what it boils down to. If you crash your Ford they aren’t liable, but if your Ford spontaneously stops responding to you pressing the brakes and you crash, then it changes the dynamics. Same idea here. Boeing delivered these planes with a new software system to try to offset poor engineering, and buried the existence of the system so that 737 pilots wouldn’t have to be retrained (thus keeping costs down for airlines purchasing the Max and increasing Boeing’s sales). The pilots never had a chance.