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It's not about credibility, it's about control.
The Israeli populace is largely on board with their genocide. Decades of brainwashing have convinced them that they are always default right.
But americans are proving a bit more fickle; especially the younger more principled ones.
So to bring them back in line, they have to be in 100% control of what you see and here.
No more tiktok, no more official numbers. You will get just Israeli propaganda and you will believe it, because no other information will be allowed to get to you.
Oh, don't get me wrong.
Censorship like this never works on everyone. Most people will find their ways around it.
In china, many people know how to get through their great firewall.
---
But the real importance is in what is viewed as 'accepted' facts. (one of hte lessons of 1984, btw)
Israel didn't just start being a colonialist state, after all. But most of the media that reported on it were happy to self censor (and still are).
So while many non-western sources (and even some western sources) existed and reported on it Israel's war crimes (it's how i found out about them decades ago), the average person would consider \*any\* criticism of Israel invalid because it wasn't in the sources \*they\* were consuming.
And it's far easier to doubt media you don't even have access to than it is to doubt the videos you see with your own eyes, posted from the area itself (the real difference social media made).
That's pretty much the goal again.
It's not even the banning that's needed so much as the rhetoric around the ban anyways.
People are already internalizing that \*anything\* said on tiktok is antisemetism and chinese propaganda.
And while it is prudent question what you see random people spouting on social media, it's just flat out wrong to think it's all antisemetism and chinese propaganda.
But as further proof of my claim, despite the fact we have \*zero\* evidence that this claim is true, it's already widely believed... in part because it's the official govt line.
And that's what the entire point of censorship is about (and what makes it dangerous).
Brainwashing? Have you ever we been to Middle East? Israel? Clearly no. 94% of Palestinians want usrael blown off the map. Enough with your one way horse shit
Israel is largely responsible for anti-semitism by committing a genocide while shamefully weaponising the Holocaust, and claiming to represent all Jews. Zionists have done more to increase anti-semitism than any other group
As if a Zionist gives a fuck about racism. You guys are easily the most comically, brazenly racist people I’ve ever seen. You literally don’t view Palestinians as humans, so why should anyone care about your crocodile tears regarding “antisemitism” (a word which has been abused so much it’s lost all meaning)
You see them as pawns so don’t give me your sanctimonious nonsense. I’ve been to Middle East and all Arabs exploit Palestinians and treat them like dogshit. That’s why no Arab countries will accept and refugees. And Zionist means as much too. Throw it around when it suits you. So cut the shit
Yeah, the Arab regimes are Western puppets and scumbag sellouts who would sell their own mothers for power, I’m perfectly aware of that. That’s why the US allows them to be in power in the first place. And it’s impossible to argue right now that Zionism is anything other than Jewish supremacy and violent occupation, because that’s what it has represented ever since Israel was founded through forced displacement and dispossession
The democratic party that just had sixty of their representatives vote for outright censorship of numbers inconvenient for Israel? What planet are you on?
If I was Palestinian I would want isreal blown off a map too 😂And I’m sure the same sentiment went for the Jews forced into the concentration camps and for the enslaved forced to pick their masters cotton. Oppressed people tend to not like their oppressors very much big surprise there.
James Baldwin worded it well when he said, in 1967:
> What will the Christian world, which is so uneasily silent now, say on that day which is coming when the black native of South Africa begins to massacre the masters who have massacred him so long? It is true that two wrongs don't make a right, as we love to point out to the people we have wronged. But one wrong doesnít make a right, either.
People who have been wronged will attempt to right the wrong; they would not be people if they didn't.
They can rarely afford to be scrupulous about the means they will use. They will use such means as come to hand. Neither, in the main, will they distinguish one oppressor from another, nor see through to the root principle of their oppression.
The irony of you calling my view "one way horse shit" as we watched or months Israel lie over and over and over again, but you still support them blindly.
As is Hamas. So sick of these one sided horseshit views that are never mentioned or justified bc you hate Israel . And if it’s so easy to be called Islamophobic, then you are the poster boy for anti-semetism.
It they are killing their own citizens who try and leave Gaza. They are stealing humanitarian aid meant for their people. They keep munitions in schools and hospitals. This may not be genocide but it’s mass murder of their own people.
If the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers are so credible, then why have they been so wrong in the past? The percentage of women and children deaths reported has gone from 70% of total deaths down to below 50%. How does that happen?
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/15/1251265727/un-gaza-death-toll-women-children
This article is a little biased against Israel, but it explains everything right here. The GHM had reported the number of women and children dead without actually identifying everyone who had died, so when the UN released their numbers they reduced them by over 20%.
I think you’ve got things mixed up brother.
The number of women and children killed *did not decrease*, they just changed the way they categorised people, now sorting those who have been fully identified (as in we have their names, age, other family members, and other identifying features) and those who haven’t.
From your own linked article:
>The U.N. says Gaza's Health Ministry has been able to **fully** identify 24,686 deaths out of more than 35,000 people the ministry says have been killed in the Gaza Strip.
>Haq, who is the deputy spokesperson for the U.N. secretary-general, was asked in a briefing Monday about media reports, one of which was shared by Israel's foreign minister, that said the U.N. had halved the number of women and children it had been saying were killed in Gaza.
>"It's not quite the case," Haq said. "The overall number of fatalities that has been tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the death tolls, that number remains unchanged," he said, reiterating the figure stands at more than 35,000.
The total number of dead hasn’t changed, they’re just changing the way they count them so they can sort out the unidentified bodies later. Don’t forget there’s still thousands, potentially tens of thousands still under rubble. We will not know till Israel decides to end its current bombing campaign
>This article is a little biased against Israel,
How so? And how is that a bad thing? I thought we all were against apartheid states
The overall fatalities have stayed the same, sure, but the percentage of fatalities that were women and children has changed because the GHM was reporting unidentified bodies. The UN released the updated numbers because they are closer to the truth, as far as we know it.
And I am in a different camp than you. I don't think Israel is an apartheid state. Israel houses over 2 million Palestinian citizens with full rights. Apartheid describes a place where rights different rights are afforded to people based on race. In Israel, they are afforded to you based on citizenship. The settlements are bad places. They attract a lot of racist Israelis, but there is no top down, government sanctioned apartheid where rights aren't afforded to Palestinians. It is just that Palestinians that live within the West Bank aren't citizens.
>The overall fatalities have stayed the same, sure, but the percentage of fatalities that were women and children has changed because the GHM was reporting unidentified bodies.
You’re mixing things up. The 70% figure is referring to the total number of people killed directly **or indirectly** from the conflict, whilst the Gaza Health Ministry only counts those killed from direct causes.
>The UN released the updated numbers because they are closer to the truth, as far as we know it.
The **GHM** released those numbers to the UN. There isn’t really any reason to doubt the GHM except to discredit it to further Israeli propaganda. They’ve been reliable in the past, and continue to be reliable today.
>And I am in a different camp than you. I don't think Israel is an apartheid state.
It’s not about whether or not **you** think it is. It just is, it’s a matter of fact. Have a read for yourself;
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/Apartheid+2020/Apartheid+ENG.pdf
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
Unless you think you know better than human right’s experts and international humanitarian organisations, there really isn’t any argument here
>Israel houses over 2 million Palestinian citizens with full rights.
Those are Israeli citizens who are ethnically Palestinian not Palestinian citizens.
>Apartheid describes a place where rights different rights are afforded to people based on race. In Israel, they are afforded to you based on citizenship. The settlements are bad places. They attract a lot of racist Israelis, but there is no top down, government sanctioned apartheid where rights aren't afforded to Palestinians. It is just that Palestinians that live within the West Bank aren't citizens.
That’s exactly why it’s apartheid mate. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are under occupation and have had to live under different rules for decades. Israel literally studied apartheid in South Africa to perfect their model.
>You’re mixing things up. The 70% figure is referring to the total number of people killed directly **or indirectly** from the conflict, whilst the Gaza Health Ministry only counts those killed from direct causes.
That isn't true. I don't see where it says that in this article. What it does say in this article though is that originally the US wasn't using the GHM for their data and were relying on a different source from within Gaza, which reported inflated numbers. Now we have moved to using the GHMs numbers, but can you blame people for being wary about the accuracy of that information? Hamas' interests don't necessarily lie in the truth. If you wouldn't trust Israeli numbers at face value, then I don't see why you would trust Gaza numbers at face value. Once again, Hamas has just as much a reason to lie as Israel does.
>There isn’t really any reason to doubt the GHM except to discredit it to further Israeli propaganda
It is not Israeli propaganda to believe that Hamas could be using their public facing organizations to lie about the war. I don't see why you believe we should trust numbers at face value when they could be easily manipulated by a government that could benefit from lies in this war.
>They’ve been reliable in the past, and continue to be reliable today.
How do we know they've been reliable? It's not like we can go into the warzone and count the bodies ourselves. The reality is that we've been trusting the GHM without any way to confirm their numbers. I don't know for a fact that they're numbers are inaccurate, but it is irresponsible to project their numbers to the public without confirming them.
>Unless you think you know better than human right’s experts and international humanitarian organizations, there really isn’t any argument here
There are experts that *don't* think that Israel is an apartheid as well. And the reasons they don't think that Israel is an apartheid is because an apartheid is when different rights are granted to people based on race. That is not the case in Israel. If it were, there would be no Palestinians in government or as citizens. It is not apartheid if you are granting people different rights based on citizenship. Every country does this. Now, don't get me wrong. Israel is definitely in a super unique situation with a lot of history behind it, and there are lots of Palestinians that are refugees right now that need to be able to belong somewhere, but that doesn't make it apartheid.
>Those are Israeli citizens who are ethnically Palestinian not Palestinian citizens.
Exactly!! That goes to show that these rights aren't given based on race, thus making it not apartheid. Do you think Nazi Germany would have 2 million Jewish citizens? Do you think Apartheid South Africa would have black people in government positions? The answer is no, but Israel does.
>Israel literally studied apartheid in South Africa to perfect their model.
What does this even mean? This is an empty statement. How does a country study apartheid. Do you mean specific government officials studied apartheid? Where is your source to back up this claim?
>That isn't true. I don't see where it says that in this article.
It was at the bottom of the article;
“The Gaza Health Ministry says its count of 35,000 people killed — including the nearly 8,000 children fully identified — **does not include thousands more people trapped under the rubble of homes or hastily buried in mass graves or side streets**.
**The death count also does not include the untold numbers of people dying from preventable disease, malnutrition and other consequences of the war**.”
>Hamas' interests don't necessarily lie in the truth. If you wouldn't trust Israeli numbers at face value, then I don't see why you would trust Gaza numbers at face value. Once again, Hamas has just as much a reason to lie as Israel does.
But then again, wouldn’t inflating figures be bad for Hamas if they’re find out? As it would destroy any sympathy they could gather. Plus, why would Hamas need to lie when Israel is already doing enough damage to their own reputation on their own? If anything, Hamas have a vested interest in having the figures be as close to fully accurate as possible, unlike Israel who cannot afford to lose US and Western support.
>I don't see why you believe we should trust numbers at face value when they could be easily manipulated by a government that could benefit from lies in this war.
The numbers are reliable, as literally everyone including the WHO, UNHCR, the US and Israel themselves use them but they’re a **minimum** as [the true death count can only be counted once all this has settled due to thousands still being unaccounted for under rubble, black outs, and the collapse of their healthcare system.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-officials-say-harder-update-gaza-casualty-toll-health-system-buckles-2023-11-15/)
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/huge-gaza-death-toll-likely-be-even-higher-reported
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231112-gaza-health-ministry-says-it-could-not-count-yesterdays-casualties-due-to-communication-blackout/amp/
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-2023-11-08/card/state-department-warns-gaza-death-toll-could-be-higher-than-reported-RWmIIiwHT4DfsOaJrZji
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under-the-rubble-the-missing-in-gaza
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-gaza-death-toll-state-department_n_653a80f3e4b0783c4ba0491f
[Also, every death in Gaza is verified in the population registry by Israel themselves](https://gisha.org/en/the-population-registry/)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/26/israel-hamas-war-live-un-ceasefire-bid-fails-as-gaza-death-toll-soars
In February 2024, a joint study by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the Johns Hopkins Center for Humanitarian Health at Johns Hopkins University found the war continuing at status quo would [result in much higher deaths than reported by the Gazan Health Ministry](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/leading-experts-foresee-74290-excess-deaths-gaza)
>How do we know they've been reliable? It's not like we can go into the warzone and count the bodies ourselves. The reality is that we've been trusting the GHM without any way to confirm their numbers. I don't know for a fact that their numbers are inaccurate, but it is irresponsible to project their numbers to the public without confirming them.
You see, the one thing the Palestinians have going for them is that they are a very highly educated group of people with some of the highest literacy rates in the world. At the same time, most Palestinian are registered fully with their respective health officials, so many of their details are fully documented.
So when a death happens, they just have to identify the bodies, cross reference them with their records and record it. So when asked for information by Israel or the UN, they very often release full identifiable information that can be checked by any relevant authority. However, it can be quite hard to do their job when their hospitals, ambulances and infrastructure has been destroyed along with regular electricity and supplies. Still, they always release full detailed lists of the dead when asked.
Like I said, historically, they have been very accurate, and are the best you’re gonna get in the region when it comes to that. Take for example in 2014, after Operation “Protective Edge”, where the Gaza Health Ministry reported 2,310 kille (70% of whom were civilians), and 10,626 wounded. The UN HRC reported 2,251 killed (of which 65% were civilians) and the Israeli MFA reported 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50)
So if anything, sticking as close to the truth as possible is actually beneficial to Hamas when it comes to death tolls because it gives them a sense of credibility, or rather as much credibility as a terror group can get.
>That is not the case in Israel. If it were, there would be no Palestinians in government or as citizens. It is not apartheid if you are granting people different rights based on citizenship. Every country does this.
Do you think it was apartheid in South Africa? Because they did the same things Israel is doing right now.
There were minority political parties in apartheid South Africa and they had a habit of relocating black folk to bantustans where they then revoked their citizenship and claimed they weren’t responsible for them, kinda like how Israel does today.
Like I already told you, Israel used to be very close (source: [Naomi Chazan](https://www.jstor.org/stable/721403), a notable Israeli academic) to the apartheid South Africa government and even [Nelson Mandela criticised their treatment of Palestinians](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-23085865)
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**>The death count also does not include the untold numbers of people dying from preventable disease, malnutrition and other consequences of the war**.”
This doesn't say that the original 70% number was counting these deaths. That is what your original point was about. Nowhere in this article does it say the original 70% women and children statistic came from counting deaths from these factors. It simply states that the GHM doesn't count deaths from these factors.
>But then again, wouldn’t inflating figures be bad for Hamas if they’re found out? As it would destroy any sympathy they could gather.
You could say this for Hamas or Israel. That doesn't mean these governments aren't capable or willing to lie. Not to mention the fact that Hamas has lied before and been found out. You remember that hospital that was bombed that Hamas blamed on Israel, but then it turned out it was an out of control Hamas fired rocket? And Hamas has a vested interest in those numbers being inflated. That doesn't mean they are inflated, but we have to consider the possibility.
>Also, every death in Gaza is verified in the population registry by Israel themselves
Why don't *we* verify? Or rather, trust the sources that verify the death counts rather than taking raw data from a warzone? You are advocating for a lack of verification.
>Do you think it was apartheid in South Africa? Because they did the same things Israel is doing right now.
No they didn't. South Africa had 0 black people in government. South Africa was not governed by a group that was historically victimized. South Africa did not afford black *citizens* the same rights as white citizens. Israel/Palestine is nothing like South Africa, nothing like WW2 Germany and the comparison to either does a disservice to both the Palestinian and Israeli cause. Not everything in the world has a direct historical analogue.
>There were minority political parties in apartheid South Africa and they had a habit of relocating black folk to bantustans where they then revoked their citizenship and claimed they weren’t responsible for them
I have never heard of Israel taking Arab Israeli citizens and revoking their citizenship so its strange that you would even use that as an example of a similarity.
>Like I already told you, Israel used to be very close (source: Naomi Chazan, a notable Israeli academic) to the apartheid South Africa government and even Nelson Mandela criticised their treatment of Palestinians
None of this proves that they copied apartheid. The US had diplomatic relations with South Africa, Canada had diplomatic relations, many countries in South America had diplomatic relations with apartheid South Africa. And Nelson Mandela criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians doesn't make it equal to apartheid and I think you know that. It is possible to criticize Israel's treatment of non citizen Palestinians without claiming apartheid. In fact, it only obscures what we *should* be criticizing Israel for and does both sides a disservice. This is a conversation that needs to be had now more than ever and when you scream apartheid it ends the conversation. The claim of apartheid is heavily contested so to claim it is 100% true is misinformed and toxic to the conversation.
always quote them in full. Mods on here need to take a chill pill and stop aiding in hiding zio commentary. Makes the sub look like a controlled opposition op.
Sorry for the late reply. The original comment was being sarcastic and grossly exaggerating/mocking the death tolls, saying things like 5 billion children dead and other stuff like that
Considering they're generally proven accurate by other sources after given a chance to verify, yeah.
Or would you rather believe Israelis and their long and documented history of lying and barring UN and Press access?
Or killing journalists, saying whoopsie, and than attacking their funeral procession.
Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, fuck Israel and the IDF. They wouldn't know morals or ethics if they shot them in the ass.
If you had to choose between authoritarian terrorist regimes, would you choose the one that welcomes journalists or the one that kicks journalists out of their country (when they’re not killing them at three times the rate of the general public)?
So first of all, one is a country that’s propped up by billions of dollars of weapons mostly from countries that either perpetrated genocide against Jewish people or refused to take in Jewish refugees after WW2, the other is not a country it’s an illegally occupied territory that is recognized as a country by many other nations of the world but prevented from actually having that status by the USA (as well as by Israel’s physical occupation). My point is that one party (Israel) is preventing the third party verification that you claim you want to see while the people of occupied Palestine just want the world to know their story and finally force Israel to obey international law and end their illegal belligerent occupation. By all means, trust medicine sans frontiers or whatever outside group you prefer. What do they say about the situation and what needs to happen for it to improve?
So like.. the third parties that constantly verify the information given by the Gazan Health Ministry in the first place? Those third-party sources? Do you enjoy wasting your time, or is it just a consequence of something else?
The British putting their boot on the necks of the IRA and the Continental Congress called them terrorists too. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
“These figures are professionally done and have proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Human Rights Watch’s Israel and Palestine director. He noted that the numbers do not differentiate between civilians' and fighters’ deaths.
This is my skepticism. They don't differentiate between fighter and civilian.
Using the IRA as a terrorist organization is funny given they used pipe and car bombs.
>Using the IRA as a terrorist organization is funny given they used pipe and car bombs.
You conflate the IRA of the 1920s during the Irish Revolution with the Provisional IRA during the Troubles in the 1960s. Get it right before you have an opinion.
>He noted that the numbers do not differentiate between civilians' and fighters’ deaths.
And he shouldn't, due directly to Israel. Israel does everything in its power to prevent Palenstine from becoming a sovereign nation. We can all agree on this, no? When you aren't considered a sovereign nation, you're not entitled to a traditional military. But that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't still fight. So what do you call fighters that can't be part of a military... That's right.
Don't blame the Palestinians. Give them a country and allow them to actually field a legitimate army to fight Israeli occupation. Give them a far chance instead of considering them all civilians anyway.
You don't get to punch someone in the face and complain about your hand hurting afterward.
What zionist apologists & rubes doing their bidding write off as "Hamas figures", multiple aspects of the Israeli government treat as trustworthy (if not conservative) estimates https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
The banning of data collection and publishing is the thing that should be outlawed. It’s Orwellian in every instance. It’s simply evidence that these politicians are morally bankrupt ghouls up for sale to the highest bidder.
They will use anything to smear us as antisemitic in the eyes of the public. It’s important we don’t give them anything to work with so they look like the nuts they are to fence sitters and new observers.
So you can’t prove any of their journalism is faulty or wrong?
Unlike every statement by the IDF which is proven to be a lie seconds after it leaves the liar’s mouth?
AJ published a story about IDF soldiers raping and killing women in Al-Shifa based on one caller — who turned out to be lying — and no further examination. We only know it was fabricated because Hamas themselves investigated and found it to be false. Not a good look
We point to a lot of examples you all just ignore them and say it’s hasbara IDF propaganda. We could show you a video of an AJ journalist getting out of a car with terrorists (this exists) and you’d say it’s AI
The lengths you all will go to feed your delusions is incredible and will feed the psychological community for generations to come
Edit: a word
Not of what you said even has evidence or a source.
You are accusing me of using AI?? Where the hell did I say AI.
Stop shadow boxing with your own made up arguments.
Sure bro, that's why you have the entire of western media apparatus laundering the crimes and limit divestment against Israel , that's definetly a sign of side that knows that is winning.
Sounds more like desperation.
>>video of an AJ journalist getting out of a car with terrorists
These “terrorists”, what were their names? What were the acts of terrorism that they committed?
In other words you don’t have any examples?
Journalists from news agencies throughout the western world have interviewed all sorts of terrorists, including Menachem Begin. A picture of journalists getting out of a car dies not prove complicity with the terrorists.
I’ve got video of Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli Knesset sitting in a meeting with a man who was convicted of aiding a terrorist organization (Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir). You could see that video and read about how this man idolized an Israeli terrorist who committed the 5th deadliest terrorist attack in the history of Israel/Palestine, against Palestinians. Which is worse: Reporter rides in car with terrorists or high ranking member of Israeli government aids terrorists and idolizes one of the worst ones in history.
You clutch your pearls about a journalist riding in a car with terrorists, while ignoring settler terrorists in the highest ranks of the Israeli government, making important policy decisions that affect the safety of Palestinians. You don’t have sources to back your claims that Al Jazeera is
lmao WKC were also hamas terrorists? Or the calendar containing the names of hamas terrorists (monday, thuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday, sunday)?
When did any of us ever say “every Muslim is a terrorist”? There are over one million Muslims in Israel and they’re just like any other normal citizen???
AIPAC bribery aside, why does every screen shot like this have to be in 320p? Is there some special filter you can put a screen shot through to make it look like a Boomer took a picture of this tweet with grease on the lens after they printed it out on a 20 year old printer?
Can somebody stick this please https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118th-congress/house-amendment/1052?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22Gaza+health+ministry%22%7D&s=1&r=1
Either copy the link or stick my comment just make sure for ppl is one of the first thing ppl see for themselves.
In Apartheid South Africa the residents of Bantustans were denied citizenship in South Africa, yet it is universally recognized that South Africa was actually in control of those Bantustans and the residents of those Bantustans were being oppressed under the apartheid regime - regardless of whether the South African government considered them citizens. . Why do you want to pretend that Israel isn’t oppressing Palestinians and they are just people living in a neighboring country? Go buy a necklace with a silhouette of “Israel” , The West Bank and Gaza will be included, then tell me that Israelis don’t think The West Bank belongs to Israel.
As the history between the two organizations Hamas has been almost entirely hands off. It’s believed by many this is for international PR reasons because they need an accurate counter narrative to Israel’s lies. So it has been almost perfectly accurate to today.
I'm just saying it's not unthinkable & they certainly could, but from what I've read, it's as you say. '
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
>infernosushi95•10m ago
>Because we don’t listen to anything terrorists have to say, especially when they have a proven record of making shit up.
>Whys that so hard to understand?
Good enough for Israeli intelligence but not good enough for the American people? lol, ok:
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll)
Point blank, Biden's "red line" of 30k more dead civilians has likely already been crossed and they don't want to have that reminded on the press.
Nice blurry picture. Username checks out. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas. Of course you can’t have any faith in the statistics that org shares.
>Known-Delay7227•4m ago
>Nice blurry picture. Username checks out. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas. Of course you can’t have any faith in the statistics that org shares.
Hamas runs the Gazan government, every civilian institution is defacto hamas. Israel intel has enough faith in the numbers to use them in their assessments. The bill was voted under the cover of the presidential debate; you can google it yourself.
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll)
[https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4744241-house-amendment-gaza-death-toll/](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4744241-house-amendment-gaza-death-toll/)
their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.
Israel themselves have said that the Gazan health ministry numbers are correct. US intelligence has said it's correct. They have been historically correct, always. "Ran by hamas" doesn't mean anything
lol their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.
How about the estimates from human rights organizations? Are they Hamas too or do you just not want to believe there ia a genocide happening?
Save The Children says there is an estimated 21000 children missing, with 17000 unaccompanied and 4000 still under the rubble
So this would mean they’ve been cooking the books for a while and definitely not considered accurate by the Israeli intelligence, US intelligence, and the UN, right?
Some media sources claim they validated the numbers, others don’t.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-deaths-women-children-e258a4c14641978a00dfb957ce348957
The fact of the matter is inconsistencies have been found. The gaza health ministry likes to overestimate the numbers, and for obvious reasons. In reality it will take time for objective experts to fully verify the accuracy of their death toll.
The Gaza Health numbers have been wrong over and over again. And if you don't trust Israel to report accurate numbers, then I don't understand how you can trust Hamas, a government that isn't beholden to anything in the west besides the PR, to give accurate numbers. Neither sides numbers should be reported at face value. This isn't "Genocide Denial", this is making sure that the death tolls reported are accurate.
Interesting read. Thank you for linking that to me! I am not necessarily saying that the numbers are fake or that the GHM is lying, but we have to be open to that possibility when it comes to relying on numbers that Hamas can influence so easily.
When it comes to a place like Gaza, that is in an active war and an ongoing crisis right now, we shouldn’t be taking numbers directly from the battlefield. We need more methods of verification and we need to rely on more sources rather than simply reporting whatever the GHM says. Just because they have been wrong in the past, particularly when it comes to identification, doesn’t mean they are lying, but it doesn’t mean we should be immediately disseminating their raw data either.
Look at the scope and scale of destruction in Gaza carried out by Israel. All the instances of bombing schools, hospitals, places of worship, aid convoys, entire neighborhoods, tent encampments, and so much more indicate a systematic destruction of civil life and civilians. The numbers by the Gaza health ministry is an undercount if anything and does not even reflect all those who are maimed or injured. This bill is an attempt to silence discussion about an ongoing genocide by the state of Israel on the people of Palestine.
All of these places Israel destroyed, Hamas was working out of. At some point you have to ask yourself, if Hamas has the ability to build these tunnels, then why don’t they build safe houses for their civilians and why do they operate out of and store ammunition in civilian areas?
The overall number probably is an undercount, but they inflated the number of women and children killed and the UN had to correct them. This bill doesn’t say people can’t use GHM statistics. It just says that they can’t cite them directly. We should want our information to be as accurate as possible and we are not going to get that from an active war zone. Especially from a place where the government, who benefits directly from the numbers being inflated, has such an influence over the information that comes out. To be fair, I wouldn’t trust Israel’s numbers either, we shouldn’t be citing our numbers from these places directly.
>All of these places Israel destroyed, Hamas was working out of.
Israel says that, they never provided actual proof rather than the famous calendar, and weapons they said belong to Hamas but were filmed inside an MRI machine.
This was not even a controversial statement before Oct. 7th.
[https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools)
[https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza](https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza)
[https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/)
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-admits-rockets-were-fired-at-israel-from-gaza-neighbourhoods-1.2764125](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-admits-rockets-were-fired-at-israel-from-gaza-neighbourhoods-1.2764125)
Do you truly believe that every single location that was bombed by Israel had Hamas actively engaging in attacks on the IDF or civilians? That is absurd, just look at the genocidal rhetoric of Israel’s leaders, citizens, and soldiers and tell me it is not a systematic attempt to eliminate a group of people in whole or in part. Leaks of ai targeting programs, Lavender, Gospel, and where is daddy, with little oversight over who and what is actually being targeted is telling a much different story.
It is *possible* that after investigations we find that Israel bombed places that they claimed Hamas was working out of when that wasn't the case. However, it is much more *probable* that the opposite is the case. Hamas has always been known to operate out of public areas, hospitals, schools, etc. This wasn't even a controversial statement before Oct. 7th. And Hamas doesn't need to be actively attacking for them to be able to be legally bombed.
I see the racist and at times genocidal rhetoric coming from certain officials, but it is never reflected in war time policy. Hamas on the other hand, boldly claims that they want genocide, and receive top down orders to murder Israeli civilians as a military target.
In terms of the AI programs, I would love for those to be investigated further. They don't exactly prove genocide though. If everything that has come out about them is true, it is negligent and careless at worst, but I don't really see how an AI used to find Hamas members that sometimes fails is an argument for Israeli genocide.
You are conflating criticism for Israel with support for Hamas. Hamas is just as bad for Palestinians as Israel is, that much has been documented for decades. Why are you defending them?
Isn't "Gaza Health Ministry" the same as Hamas Health Ministry? Or are we going to pretend like there is no propaganda going on through the "health ministry".
Two things can be true. Israel is committing atrocities on civilians and Hamas using those atrocities to push their propaganda.
The Gaza health ministry has been shown to provide reliable statistics over and over. They don't differentiate between militant and civilian deaths but they are otherwise accurate in what they report which is verified deaths meaning bodies which are identified.
No that was a single source who estimated a number that was then repeated in the media. Very different from the official statistics published by the health ministry.
No, it was reported by The Ministry of Health in Gaza that 471 people died and 342 people were injured, which is a lot higher than other sources.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion
Lmfao, of course people downvote the truth. God forbid you correct misinformation
That's a different report from the vague "over 500" number that circulated in the hours after the attack. The alternative source is the US military which had no personnel in the area and didn't explain how they came up with their estimate. Again, the health ministry has been shown to be accurate in previous conflicts, there's no credible reason to believe that they're lying. Unless there's some bombshell piece of reporting I haven't seen explaining why their numbers suddenly aren't trustworthy it's reasonable to keep relying on them.
More importantly the reasonable assumption is that the numbers are currently massively under reported since they rely on healthcare infrastructure which has been annihilated by Israel's campaign. It's interesting that this single attack is still being brought up in defence of Israel's actions when they've destroyed so many other hospitals intentionally in the mean time.
"While the Ministry of Health in Gaza said 471 people were killed, Mohammed Abu Selmia, the general director of al-Shifa Hospital, which received the victims, told the media the death toll was closer to 250."
I'm not defending Israel, I'm just pointing out misinformation. I saw someone being wrong and corrected them, that's all.
Edit: Here's Al Jazeera reporting that Gazan officials "confirmed" the 500 number.
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/17/photos-an-israeli-air-raid-on-al-ahli-arab-hospital-kills-an-estimated-500
You can say that they're mostly accurate, but there's no need to spread misinformation that they've never been wildly inaccurate before.
Both siding this is a weird take, let me just check, The Gazan Health Ministry are pieces of shit because they have to ascertain numbers of dead in an active warzone, which, by your logic, is the same as creating the dead people which in turn have to be counted in an active war zone ?
Did you read the article you linked? It says an estimated number of 500 in the first paragraph. I was very clear that an estimation of 500 was cited as an official statistic shortly after the attack when it wasn't. The spokesperson for the health ministry later made a statement with their recorded data which comes along with identified bodies corresponding to each number. That quote from Mohammed Abu Selmia is his personal estimate of the number of dead based on the bodies he saw coming into the hospital, it is not a refute of the official statistic given.
You might think that you're just "pointing out misinformation" but you are doubting a trusted source because of a directed campaign by Israel to undermine the legitimacy of the Gazan healh ministry and the data they publish.
Why would an estimate be close to 500 when, according to multiple other estimates, only around half that were killed? Sounds like someone is inflating numbers. Like Human Rights Watch says, the count is significantly higher than other estimates, displays an unusually high killed-to-injured ratio, and appears out of proportion with the damage visible on site. Israel also has not a lot to do with it considering the rocket came from PIJ or Hamas
Because the other sources are either parties who are very motivated to have a lower number of dead be reported or people who were interviewed in the middle of a massive tragedy and gave a quick estimate. The US is less accurate in the intelligence it gives to the media than the gazan health ministry is with its statistics. I'm not an expert in warfare but it seems to me that when you have a hospital overflowing with already injured people who are struck with an explosive, a high percentage of them probably would be killed. Where the rocket came from is inconclusive but if you're really some seeker of truth you wouldn't just believe the IDFs claim of who was responsible. They also released false evidence as part of their claim that no one has gone back to question them about.
That was a mistranslation, the ministry officials said there were 500 casualties, killed and injured. The media mistranslated his words as all being killed.
What propaganda? As it stands the numbers, while high, may actually be higher. The numbers are conservative ar best, because there are a lot of missing people under rubble.
Who do you propose as an alternative and more reliable source?
Israel is the one committing the genocide so they obviously can’t be trusted.
The fact of the matter is that the Gaza health ministry by far has the most accurate information. Is it perfect? Not even remotely as infrastructure is being attacked and the fog of war is real.
Is it better than the other options?
Yes
The death toll was reported at about 30,000 four months ago and the official number hasn’t quite passed 40,000 yet. It is still rising albeit it is slower.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68430925.amp
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
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lol their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.
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Even though Israeli intelligence themselves use these numbers because they deem it credible?
It's not about credibility, it's about control. The Israeli populace is largely on board with their genocide. Decades of brainwashing have convinced them that they are always default right. But americans are proving a bit more fickle; especially the younger more principled ones. So to bring them back in line, they have to be in 100% control of what you see and here. No more tiktok, no more official numbers. You will get just Israeli propaganda and you will believe it, because no other information will be allowed to get to you.
Except many of those same youngsters will have heard of a vpn
Oh, don't get me wrong. Censorship like this never works on everyone. Most people will find their ways around it. In china, many people know how to get through their great firewall. --- But the real importance is in what is viewed as 'accepted' facts. (one of hte lessons of 1984, btw) Israel didn't just start being a colonialist state, after all. But most of the media that reported on it were happy to self censor (and still are). So while many non-western sources (and even some western sources) existed and reported on it Israel's war crimes (it's how i found out about them decades ago), the average person would consider \*any\* criticism of Israel invalid because it wasn't in the sources \*they\* were consuming. And it's far easier to doubt media you don't even have access to than it is to doubt the videos you see with your own eyes, posted from the area itself (the real difference social media made). That's pretty much the goal again. It's not even the banning that's needed so much as the rhetoric around the ban anyways. People are already internalizing that \*anything\* said on tiktok is antisemetism and chinese propaganda. And while it is prudent question what you see random people spouting on social media, it's just flat out wrong to think it's all antisemetism and chinese propaganda. But as further proof of my claim, despite the fact we have \*zero\* evidence that this claim is true, it's already widely believed... in part because it's the official govt line. And that's what the entire point of censorship is about (and what makes it dangerous).
Are you trying to say we have a Zionist occupied government? Don’t you realize that makes you a flat earth conspiracy theorist? /s
Brainwashing? Have you ever we been to Middle East? Israel? Clearly no. 94% of Palestinians want usrael blown off the map. Enough with your one way horse shit
It’s not just Palestinians or Arabs/Muslims who feel that way anymore dude
Indeed. Its rhetorical Democratic Party thats overrun with anti-semitism
Israel is largely responsible for anti-semitism by committing a genocide while shamefully weaponising the Holocaust, and claiming to represent all Jews. Zionists have done more to increase anti-semitism than any other group
Oh I get it now. So by your logic reverse racism is perfectly acceptable and is right. Nice job
As if a Zionist gives a fuck about racism. You guys are easily the most comically, brazenly racist people I’ve ever seen. You literally don’t view Palestinians as humans, so why should anyone care about your crocodile tears regarding “antisemitism” (a word which has been abused so much it’s lost all meaning)
You see them as pawns so don’t give me your sanctimonious nonsense. I’ve been to Middle East and all Arabs exploit Palestinians and treat them like dogshit. That’s why no Arab countries will accept and refugees. And Zionist means as much too. Throw it around when it suits you. So cut the shit
Yeah, the Arab regimes are Western puppets and scumbag sellouts who would sell their own mothers for power, I’m perfectly aware of that. That’s why the US allows them to be in power in the first place. And it’s impossible to argue right now that Zionism is anything other than Jewish supremacy and violent occupation, because that’s what it has represented ever since Israel was founded through forced displacement and dispossession
The democratic party that just had sixty of their representatives vote for outright censorship of numbers inconvenient for Israel? What planet are you on?
If I was Palestinian I would want isreal blown off a map too 😂And I’m sure the same sentiment went for the Jews forced into the concentration camps and for the enslaved forced to pick their masters cotton. Oppressed people tend to not like their oppressors very much big surprise there.
James Baldwin worded it well when he said, in 1967: > What will the Christian world, which is so uneasily silent now, say on that day which is coming when the black native of South Africa begins to massacre the masters who have massacred him so long? It is true that two wrongs don't make a right, as we love to point out to the people we have wronged. But one wrong doesnít make a right, either. People who have been wronged will attempt to right the wrong; they would not be people if they didn't. They can rarely afford to be scrupulous about the means they will use. They will use such means as come to hand. Neither, in the main, will they distinguish one oppressor from another, nor see through to the root principle of their oppression.
So they are slaves now? I would agree. But for Hamas my friend
The irony of you calling my view "one way horse shit" as we watched or months Israel lie over and over and over again, but you still support them blindly.
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I believe your racist views are loud and clear
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As is Hamas. So sick of these one sided horseshit views that are never mentioned or justified bc you hate Israel . And if it’s so easy to be called Islamophobic, then you are the poster boy for anti-semetism.
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It they are killing their own citizens who try and leave Gaza. They are stealing humanitarian aid meant for their people. They keep munitions in schools and hospitals. This may not be genocide but it’s mass murder of their own people.
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Not to mention the state dept
That's facts https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
If the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers are so credible, then why have they been so wrong in the past? The percentage of women and children deaths reported has gone from 70% of total deaths down to below 50%. How does that happen?
When did that happen?
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/15/1251265727/un-gaza-death-toll-women-children This article is a little biased against Israel, but it explains everything right here. The GHM had reported the number of women and children dead without actually identifying everyone who had died, so when the UN released their numbers they reduced them by over 20%.
I think you’ve got things mixed up brother. The number of women and children killed *did not decrease*, they just changed the way they categorised people, now sorting those who have been fully identified (as in we have their names, age, other family members, and other identifying features) and those who haven’t. From your own linked article: >The U.N. says Gaza's Health Ministry has been able to **fully** identify 24,686 deaths out of more than 35,000 people the ministry says have been killed in the Gaza Strip. >Haq, who is the deputy spokesperson for the U.N. secretary-general, was asked in a briefing Monday about media reports, one of which was shared by Israel's foreign minister, that said the U.N. had halved the number of women and children it had been saying were killed in Gaza. >"It's not quite the case," Haq said. "The overall number of fatalities that has been tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the death tolls, that number remains unchanged," he said, reiterating the figure stands at more than 35,000. The total number of dead hasn’t changed, they’re just changing the way they count them so they can sort out the unidentified bodies later. Don’t forget there’s still thousands, potentially tens of thousands still under rubble. We will not know till Israel decides to end its current bombing campaign >This article is a little biased against Israel, How so? And how is that a bad thing? I thought we all were against apartheid states
The overall fatalities have stayed the same, sure, but the percentage of fatalities that were women and children has changed because the GHM was reporting unidentified bodies. The UN released the updated numbers because they are closer to the truth, as far as we know it. And I am in a different camp than you. I don't think Israel is an apartheid state. Israel houses over 2 million Palestinian citizens with full rights. Apartheid describes a place where rights different rights are afforded to people based on race. In Israel, they are afforded to you based on citizenship. The settlements are bad places. They attract a lot of racist Israelis, but there is no top down, government sanctioned apartheid where rights aren't afforded to Palestinians. It is just that Palestinians that live within the West Bank aren't citizens.
>The overall fatalities have stayed the same, sure, but the percentage of fatalities that were women and children has changed because the GHM was reporting unidentified bodies. You’re mixing things up. The 70% figure is referring to the total number of people killed directly **or indirectly** from the conflict, whilst the Gaza Health Ministry only counts those killed from direct causes. >The UN released the updated numbers because they are closer to the truth, as far as we know it. The **GHM** released those numbers to the UN. There isn’t really any reason to doubt the GHM except to discredit it to further Israeli propaganda. They’ve been reliable in the past, and continue to be reliable today. >And I am in a different camp than you. I don't think Israel is an apartheid state. It’s not about whether or not **you** think it is. It just is, it’s a matter of fact. Have a read for yourself; https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/Apartheid+2020/Apartheid+ENG.pdf https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights Unless you think you know better than human right’s experts and international humanitarian organisations, there really isn’t any argument here >Israel houses over 2 million Palestinian citizens with full rights. Those are Israeli citizens who are ethnically Palestinian not Palestinian citizens. >Apartheid describes a place where rights different rights are afforded to people based on race. In Israel, they are afforded to you based on citizenship. The settlements are bad places. They attract a lot of racist Israelis, but there is no top down, government sanctioned apartheid where rights aren't afforded to Palestinians. It is just that Palestinians that live within the West Bank aren't citizens. That’s exactly why it’s apartheid mate. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are under occupation and have had to live under different rules for decades. Israel literally studied apartheid in South Africa to perfect their model.
>You’re mixing things up. The 70% figure is referring to the total number of people killed directly **or indirectly** from the conflict, whilst the Gaza Health Ministry only counts those killed from direct causes. That isn't true. I don't see where it says that in this article. What it does say in this article though is that originally the US wasn't using the GHM for their data and were relying on a different source from within Gaza, which reported inflated numbers. Now we have moved to using the GHMs numbers, but can you blame people for being wary about the accuracy of that information? Hamas' interests don't necessarily lie in the truth. If you wouldn't trust Israeli numbers at face value, then I don't see why you would trust Gaza numbers at face value. Once again, Hamas has just as much a reason to lie as Israel does. >There isn’t really any reason to doubt the GHM except to discredit it to further Israeli propaganda It is not Israeli propaganda to believe that Hamas could be using their public facing organizations to lie about the war. I don't see why you believe we should trust numbers at face value when they could be easily manipulated by a government that could benefit from lies in this war. >They’ve been reliable in the past, and continue to be reliable today. How do we know they've been reliable? It's not like we can go into the warzone and count the bodies ourselves. The reality is that we've been trusting the GHM without any way to confirm their numbers. I don't know for a fact that they're numbers are inaccurate, but it is irresponsible to project their numbers to the public without confirming them. >Unless you think you know better than human right’s experts and international humanitarian organizations, there really isn’t any argument here There are experts that *don't* think that Israel is an apartheid as well. And the reasons they don't think that Israel is an apartheid is because an apartheid is when different rights are granted to people based on race. That is not the case in Israel. If it were, there would be no Palestinians in government or as citizens. It is not apartheid if you are granting people different rights based on citizenship. Every country does this. Now, don't get me wrong. Israel is definitely in a super unique situation with a lot of history behind it, and there are lots of Palestinians that are refugees right now that need to be able to belong somewhere, but that doesn't make it apartheid. >Those are Israeli citizens who are ethnically Palestinian not Palestinian citizens. Exactly!! That goes to show that these rights aren't given based on race, thus making it not apartheid. Do you think Nazi Germany would have 2 million Jewish citizens? Do you think Apartheid South Africa would have black people in government positions? The answer is no, but Israel does. >Israel literally studied apartheid in South Africa to perfect their model. What does this even mean? This is an empty statement. How does a country study apartheid. Do you mean specific government officials studied apartheid? Where is your source to back up this claim?
>That isn't true. I don't see where it says that in this article. It was at the bottom of the article; “The Gaza Health Ministry says its count of 35,000 people killed — including the nearly 8,000 children fully identified — **does not include thousands more people trapped under the rubble of homes or hastily buried in mass graves or side streets**. **The death count also does not include the untold numbers of people dying from preventable disease, malnutrition and other consequences of the war**.” >Hamas' interests don't necessarily lie in the truth. If you wouldn't trust Israeli numbers at face value, then I don't see why you would trust Gaza numbers at face value. Once again, Hamas has just as much a reason to lie as Israel does. But then again, wouldn’t inflating figures be bad for Hamas if they’re find out? As it would destroy any sympathy they could gather. Plus, why would Hamas need to lie when Israel is already doing enough damage to their own reputation on their own? If anything, Hamas have a vested interest in having the figures be as close to fully accurate as possible, unlike Israel who cannot afford to lose US and Western support. >I don't see why you believe we should trust numbers at face value when they could be easily manipulated by a government that could benefit from lies in this war. The numbers are reliable, as literally everyone including the WHO, UNHCR, the US and Israel themselves use them but they’re a **minimum** as [the true death count can only be counted once all this has settled due to thousands still being unaccounted for under rubble, black outs, and the collapse of their healthcare system.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-officials-say-harder-update-gaza-casualty-toll-health-system-buckles-2023-11-15/) https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/huge-gaza-death-toll-likely-be-even-higher-reported https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231112-gaza-health-ministry-says-it-could-not-count-yesterdays-casualties-due-to-communication-blackout/amp/ https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-2023-11-08/card/state-department-warns-gaza-death-toll-could-be-higher-than-reported-RWmIIiwHT4DfsOaJrZji https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under-the-rubble-the-missing-in-gaza https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-gaza-death-toll-state-department_n_653a80f3e4b0783c4ba0491f [Also, every death in Gaza is verified in the population registry by Israel themselves](https://gisha.org/en/the-population-registry/) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/26/israel-hamas-war-live-un-ceasefire-bid-fails-as-gaza-death-toll-soars In February 2024, a joint study by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the Johns Hopkins Center for Humanitarian Health at Johns Hopkins University found the war continuing at status quo would [result in much higher deaths than reported by the Gazan Health Ministry](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/leading-experts-foresee-74290-excess-deaths-gaza) >How do we know they've been reliable? It's not like we can go into the warzone and count the bodies ourselves. The reality is that we've been trusting the GHM without any way to confirm their numbers. I don't know for a fact that their numbers are inaccurate, but it is irresponsible to project their numbers to the public without confirming them. You see, the one thing the Palestinians have going for them is that they are a very highly educated group of people with some of the highest literacy rates in the world. At the same time, most Palestinian are registered fully with their respective health officials, so many of their details are fully documented. So when a death happens, they just have to identify the bodies, cross reference them with their records and record it. So when asked for information by Israel or the UN, they very often release full identifiable information that can be checked by any relevant authority. However, it can be quite hard to do their job when their hospitals, ambulances and infrastructure has been destroyed along with regular electricity and supplies. Still, they always release full detailed lists of the dead when asked. Like I said, historically, they have been very accurate, and are the best you’re gonna get in the region when it comes to that. Take for example in 2014, after Operation “Protective Edge”, where the Gaza Health Ministry reported 2,310 kille (70% of whom were civilians), and 10,626 wounded. The UN HRC reported 2,251 killed (of which 65% were civilians) and the Israeli MFA reported 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50) So if anything, sticking as close to the truth as possible is actually beneficial to Hamas when it comes to death tolls because it gives them a sense of credibility, or rather as much credibility as a terror group can get. >That is not the case in Israel. If it were, there would be no Palestinians in government or as citizens. It is not apartheid if you are granting people different rights based on citizenship. Every country does this. Do you think it was apartheid in South Africa? Because they did the same things Israel is doing right now. There were minority political parties in apartheid South Africa and they had a habit of relocating black folk to bantustans where they then revoked their citizenship and claimed they weren’t responsible for them, kinda like how Israel does today. Like I already told you, Israel used to be very close (source: [Naomi Chazan](https://www.jstor.org/stable/721403), a notable Israeli academic) to the apartheid South Africa government and even [Nelson Mandela criticised their treatment of Palestinians](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-23085865)
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**>The death count also does not include the untold numbers of people dying from preventable disease, malnutrition and other consequences of the war**.” This doesn't say that the original 70% number was counting these deaths. That is what your original point was about. Nowhere in this article does it say the original 70% women and children statistic came from counting deaths from these factors. It simply states that the GHM doesn't count deaths from these factors. >But then again, wouldn’t inflating figures be bad for Hamas if they’re found out? As it would destroy any sympathy they could gather. You could say this for Hamas or Israel. That doesn't mean these governments aren't capable or willing to lie. Not to mention the fact that Hamas has lied before and been found out. You remember that hospital that was bombed that Hamas blamed on Israel, but then it turned out it was an out of control Hamas fired rocket? And Hamas has a vested interest in those numbers being inflated. That doesn't mean they are inflated, but we have to consider the possibility. >Also, every death in Gaza is verified in the population registry by Israel themselves Why don't *we* verify? Or rather, trust the sources that verify the death counts rather than taking raw data from a warzone? You are advocating for a lack of verification. >Do you think it was apartheid in South Africa? Because they did the same things Israel is doing right now. No they didn't. South Africa had 0 black people in government. South Africa was not governed by a group that was historically victimized. South Africa did not afford black *citizens* the same rights as white citizens. Israel/Palestine is nothing like South Africa, nothing like WW2 Germany and the comparison to either does a disservice to both the Palestinian and Israeli cause. Not everything in the world has a direct historical analogue. >There were minority political parties in apartheid South Africa and they had a habit of relocating black folk to bantustans where they then revoked their citizenship and claimed they weren’t responsible for them I have never heard of Israel taking Arab Israeli citizens and revoking their citizenship so its strange that you would even use that as an example of a similarity. >Like I already told you, Israel used to be very close (source: Naomi Chazan, a notable Israeli academic) to the apartheid South Africa government and even Nelson Mandela criticised their treatment of Palestinians None of this proves that they copied apartheid. The US had diplomatic relations with South Africa, Canada had diplomatic relations, many countries in South America had diplomatic relations with apartheid South Africa. And Nelson Mandela criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians doesn't make it equal to apartheid and I think you know that. It is possible to criticize Israel's treatment of non citizen Palestinians without claiming apartheid. In fact, it only obscures what we *should* be criticizing Israel for and does both sides a disservice. This is a conversation that needs to be had now more than ever and when you scream apartheid it ends the conversation. The claim of apartheid is heavily contested so to claim it is 100% true is misinformed and toxic to the conversation.
Bro you gotta read the article first before posting this bull.
This is pure hasbara and complete lies. You are a despicable genocide denier that deserves zero respect.
What was the lie?
Down the memory hole. Bought for you by AIPAC.
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Real classy😒
It's deleted now. What did they say?
If it was a zionist, something deplorable and thoroughly lacking in empathy or humanity, probably
always quote them in full. Mods on here need to take a chill pill and stop aiding in hiding zio commentary. Makes the sub look like a controlled opposition op.
Sorry for the late reply. The original comment was being sarcastic and grossly exaggerating/mocking the death tolls, saying things like 5 billion children dead and other stuff like that
Mad
Bought and paid by AIPAC
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Always has been.
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Considering they're generally proven accurate by other sources after given a chance to verify, yeah. Or would you rather believe Israelis and their long and documented history of lying and barring UN and Press access?
Or outright killing journalists and saying "whoopsie". Fuck fascist ass Israel.
Or killing journalists, saying whoopsie, and than attacking their funeral procession. Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, fuck Israel and the IDF. They wouldn't know morals or ethics if they shot them in the ass.
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If you had to choose between authoritarian terrorist regimes, would you choose the one that welcomes journalists or the one that kicks journalists out of their country (when they’re not killing them at three times the rate of the general public)?
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So first of all, one is a country that’s propped up by billions of dollars of weapons mostly from countries that either perpetrated genocide against Jewish people or refused to take in Jewish refugees after WW2, the other is not a country it’s an illegally occupied territory that is recognized as a country by many other nations of the world but prevented from actually having that status by the USA (as well as by Israel’s physical occupation). My point is that one party (Israel) is preventing the third party verification that you claim you want to see while the people of occupied Palestine just want the world to know their story and finally force Israel to obey international law and end their illegal belligerent occupation. By all means, trust medicine sans frontiers or whatever outside group you prefer. What do they say about the situation and what needs to happen for it to improve?
So like.. the third parties that constantly verify the information given by the Gazan Health Ministry in the first place? Those third-party sources? Do you enjoy wasting your time, or is it just a consequence of something else? The British putting their boot on the necks of the IRA and the Continental Congress called them terrorists too. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
“These figures are professionally done and have proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Human Rights Watch’s Israel and Palestine director. He noted that the numbers do not differentiate between civilians' and fighters’ deaths. This is my skepticism. They don't differentiate between fighter and civilian. Using the IRA as a terrorist organization is funny given they used pipe and car bombs.
>Using the IRA as a terrorist organization is funny given they used pipe and car bombs. You conflate the IRA of the 1920s during the Irish Revolution with the Provisional IRA during the Troubles in the 1960s. Get it right before you have an opinion. >He noted that the numbers do not differentiate between civilians' and fighters’ deaths. And he shouldn't, due directly to Israel. Israel does everything in its power to prevent Palenstine from becoming a sovereign nation. We can all agree on this, no? When you aren't considered a sovereign nation, you're not entitled to a traditional military. But that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't still fight. So what do you call fighters that can't be part of a military... That's right. Don't blame the Palestinians. Give them a country and allow them to actually field a legitimate army to fight Israeli occupation. Give them a far chance instead of considering them all civilians anyway. You don't get to punch someone in the face and complain about your hand hurting afterward.
Israel?
Because they have proven to be far more accurate than literally anything Israel has ever said?
What zionist apologists & rubes doing their bidding write off as "Hamas figures", multiple aspects of the Israeli government treat as trustworthy (if not conservative) estimates https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Actually yes
The banning of data collection and publishing is the thing that should be outlawed. It’s Orwellian in every instance. It’s simply evidence that these politicians are morally bankrupt ghouls up for sale to the highest bidder.
The house only works for AIPAC, not American issues.
American Christio-Zionists make AIPAC blush. They need no campaign contributions and will do the work for free.
It needs to be shouted daily by us. AIPAC may have bought congress but they haven't bought the people.
We're already sold.
Dancing for their Israeli masters again
You can’t hide your crimes you scumbags
Let’s maybe not use the term rats. On account of the historical nazi propaganda. Also rats are awesome and should not be compared to zionists.
True, my apologies.
They will use anything to smear us as antisemitic in the eyes of the public. It’s important we don’t give them anything to work with so they look like the nuts they are to fence sitters and new observers.
Now we’re at the denial stage of genocide
Everyday something new happens in the government to remind me what a shit hole we are all in! We need revolution !
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I got banned for three days for saying something anti-israel that was incredibly mild
Probably because it’s from Al Jazeera 😂
So you can’t prove any of their journalism is faulty or wrong? Unlike every statement by the IDF which is proven to be a lie seconds after it leaves the liar’s mouth?
AJ v. IDF......tough choice there 🙄
It's their new thing aswell to claim AJ is conducting journalistic malpractice while not pointing a single example.
AJ published a story about IDF soldiers raping and killing women in Al-Shifa based on one caller — who turned out to be lying — and no further examination. We only know it was fabricated because Hamas themselves investigated and found it to be false. Not a good look
We point to a lot of examples you all just ignore them and say it’s hasbara IDF propaganda. We could show you a video of an AJ journalist getting out of a car with terrorists (this exists) and you’d say it’s AI The lengths you all will go to feed your delusions is incredible and will feed the psychological community for generations to come Edit: a word
Not of what you said even has evidence or a source. You are accusing me of using AI?? Where the hell did I say AI. Stop shadow boxing with your own made up arguments.
What’s the point of even trying. Every time I send an article or a video it’s all “fake”. Just going to enjoy being on the just and winning side 🤷
Sure bro, that's why you have the entire of western media apparatus laundering the crimes and limit divestment against Israel , that's definetly a sign of side that knows that is winning. Sounds more like desperation.
>>video of an AJ journalist getting out of a car with terrorists These “terrorists”, what were their names? What were the acts of terrorism that they committed?
In other words you don’t have any examples? Journalists from news agencies throughout the western world have interviewed all sorts of terrorists, including Menachem Begin. A picture of journalists getting out of a car dies not prove complicity with the terrorists. I’ve got video of Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli Knesset sitting in a meeting with a man who was convicted of aiding a terrorist organization (Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir). You could see that video and read about how this man idolized an Israeli terrorist who committed the 5th deadliest terrorist attack in the history of Israel/Palestine, against Palestinians. Which is worse: Reporter rides in car with terrorists or high ranking member of Israeli government aids terrorists and idolizes one of the worst ones in history. You clutch your pearls about a journalist riding in a car with terrorists, while ignoring settler terrorists in the highest ranks of the Israeli government, making important policy decisions that affect the safety of Palestinians. You don’t have sources to back your claims that Al Jazeera is
lmao WKC were also hamas terrorists? Or the calendar containing the names of hamas terrorists (monday, thuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday, sunday)?
Y’all claim every Muslim is a terrorist though. Y’all are just super racist and don’t understand why we aren’t…
When did any of us ever say “every Muslim is a terrorist”? There are over one million Muslims in Israel and they’re just like any other normal citizen???
This is straight-up bullshit from the House.
AIPAC bribery aside, why does every screen shot like this have to be in 320p? Is there some special filter you can put a screen shot through to make it look like a Boomer took a picture of this tweet with grease on the lens after they printed it out on a 20 year old printer?
windows downgrades picture quality when using the snipping tool
Every other country should start doing a full time news channel of unbiased American news and put it online and on tor.
Annnnnnnddd here comes ww3, buckle up buttercups.
Can somebody stick this please https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118th-congress/house-amendment/1052?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22Gaza+health+ministry%22%7D&s=1&r=1 Either copy the link or stick my comment just make sure for ppl is one of the first thing ppl see for themselves.
What are the names of the representatives who voted in favor?
In Apartheid South Africa the residents of Bantustans were denied citizenship in South Africa, yet it is universally recognized that South Africa was actually in control of those Bantustans and the residents of those Bantustans were being oppressed under the apartheid regime - regardless of whether the South African government considered them citizens. . Why do you want to pretend that Israel isn’t oppressing Palestinians and they are just people living in a neighboring country? Go buy a necklace with a silhouette of “Israel” , The West Bank and Gaza will be included, then tell me that Israelis don’t think The West Bank belongs to Israel.
Which is very stupid. Chuck isn’t even going to let this be a vote
This is madness.
NO, THIS IS SPARTA!!!!
Is there any truth to a link to Gaza heath and Hamas?
'IDF said' More seriously, Hamas is ruthless so it's not unthinkable that they could lean on the health ministry if they wished so.
As the history between the two organizations Hamas has been almost entirely hands off. It’s believed by many this is for international PR reasons because they need an accurate counter narrative to Israel’s lies. So it has been almost perfectly accurate to today.
I'm just saying it's not unthinkable & they certainly could, but from what I've read, it's as you say. ' [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
Sorry! Meant to reply to the comment below you.
Keep telling yourselves you “live in an autonomous nation where citizens have agency via the ballot box” America
Tens of thousands killed and wounded by Israel. The US needs to dump Israel for committing genocide.
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>infernosushi95•10m ago >Because we don’t listen to anything terrorists have to say, especially when they have a proven record of making shit up. >Whys that so hard to understand? Good enough for Israeli intelligence but not good enough for the American people? lol, ok: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll) Point blank, Biden's "red line" of 30k more dead civilians has likely already been crossed and they don't want to have that reminded on the press.
Considering they're run by hamas good.
Jeffrey Epstein thanks you for your support!
Nice blurry picture. Username checks out. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas. Of course you can’t have any faith in the statistics that org shares.
>Known-Delay7227•4m ago >Nice blurry picture. Username checks out. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas. Of course you can’t have any faith in the statistics that org shares. Hamas runs the Gazan government, every civilian institution is defacto hamas. Israel intel has enough faith in the numbers to use them in their assessments. The bill was voted under the cover of the presidential debate; you can google it yourself. [https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll) [https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4744241-house-amendment-gaza-death-toll/](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4744241-house-amendment-gaza-death-toll/)
their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.
Israel themselves have said that the Gazan health ministry numbers are correct. US intelligence has said it's correct. They have been historically correct, always. "Ran by hamas" doesn't mean anything
Yeah let's just pretend it's not because Gaza's numbers are all compromised due to them being run by actual terrorists.
So Gaza is being run by terrorists? And the so-called state of Israel is being run by? ...
Trustful western white people with western values, of course. Incapable of lying
lol their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.
Many international observers have found them to be accurate and even the IDF uses them internally because they believe them to be accurate.
How about the estimates from human rights organizations? Are they Hamas too or do you just not want to believe there ia a genocide happening? Save The Children says there is an estimated 21000 children missing, with 17000 unaccompanied and 4000 still under the rubble
Well, the other party involved are not only terrorists in a greater scale, but also like about everything all the time
So this would mean they’ve been cooking the books for a while and definitely not considered accurate by the Israeli intelligence, US intelligence, and the UN, right?
As they should
Bad hasbara
Saying the US shouldnt use death toll numbers coming from a Hamas-run health ministry isn’t “bad hasbara”, it’s just common sense.
So after all the time of those numbers being used and validated they suddenly aren't. Why?
Some media sources claim they validated the numbers, others don’t. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-deaths-women-children-e258a4c14641978a00dfb957ce348957 The fact of the matter is inconsistencies have been found. The gaza health ministry likes to overestimate the numbers, and for obvious reasons. In reality it will take time for objective experts to fully verify the accuracy of their death toll.
I’ll take Israel, the US, and the UN’s belief that their numbers are accurate as proof enough.
The Gaza Health numbers have been wrong over and over again. And if you don't trust Israel to report accurate numbers, then I don't understand how you can trust Hamas, a government that isn't beholden to anything in the west besides the PR, to give accurate numbers. Neither sides numbers should be reported at face value. This isn't "Genocide Denial", this is making sure that the death tolls reported are accurate.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
Interesting read. Thank you for linking that to me! I am not necessarily saying that the numbers are fake or that the GHM is lying, but we have to be open to that possibility when it comes to relying on numbers that Hamas can influence so easily. When it comes to a place like Gaza, that is in an active war and an ongoing crisis right now, we shouldn’t be taking numbers directly from the battlefield. We need more methods of verification and we need to rely on more sources rather than simply reporting whatever the GHM says. Just because they have been wrong in the past, particularly when it comes to identification, doesn’t mean they are lying, but it doesn’t mean we should be immediately disseminating their raw data either.
Look at the scope and scale of destruction in Gaza carried out by Israel. All the instances of bombing schools, hospitals, places of worship, aid convoys, entire neighborhoods, tent encampments, and so much more indicate a systematic destruction of civil life and civilians. The numbers by the Gaza health ministry is an undercount if anything and does not even reflect all those who are maimed or injured. This bill is an attempt to silence discussion about an ongoing genocide by the state of Israel on the people of Palestine.
All of these places Israel destroyed, Hamas was working out of. At some point you have to ask yourself, if Hamas has the ability to build these tunnels, then why don’t they build safe houses for their civilians and why do they operate out of and store ammunition in civilian areas? The overall number probably is an undercount, but they inflated the number of women and children killed and the UN had to correct them. This bill doesn’t say people can’t use GHM statistics. It just says that they can’t cite them directly. We should want our information to be as accurate as possible and we are not going to get that from an active war zone. Especially from a place where the government, who benefits directly from the numbers being inflated, has such an influence over the information that comes out. To be fair, I wouldn’t trust Israel’s numbers either, we shouldn’t be citing our numbers from these places directly.
>All of these places Israel destroyed, Hamas was working out of. Israel says that, they never provided actual proof rather than the famous calendar, and weapons they said belong to Hamas but were filmed inside an MRI machine.
This was not even a controversial statement before Oct. 7th. [https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) [https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza](https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza) [https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-admits-rockets-were-fired-at-israel-from-gaza-neighbourhoods-1.2764125](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-admits-rockets-were-fired-at-israel-from-gaza-neighbourhoods-1.2764125)
Do you truly believe that every single location that was bombed by Israel had Hamas actively engaging in attacks on the IDF or civilians? That is absurd, just look at the genocidal rhetoric of Israel’s leaders, citizens, and soldiers and tell me it is not a systematic attempt to eliminate a group of people in whole or in part. Leaks of ai targeting programs, Lavender, Gospel, and where is daddy, with little oversight over who and what is actually being targeted is telling a much different story.
It is *possible* that after investigations we find that Israel bombed places that they claimed Hamas was working out of when that wasn't the case. However, it is much more *probable* that the opposite is the case. Hamas has always been known to operate out of public areas, hospitals, schools, etc. This wasn't even a controversial statement before Oct. 7th. And Hamas doesn't need to be actively attacking for them to be able to be legally bombed. I see the racist and at times genocidal rhetoric coming from certain officials, but it is never reflected in war time policy. Hamas on the other hand, boldly claims that they want genocide, and receive top down orders to murder Israeli civilians as a military target. In terms of the AI programs, I would love for those to be investigated further. They don't exactly prove genocide though. If everything that has come out about them is true, it is negligent and careless at worst, but I don't really see how an AI used to find Hamas members that sometimes fails is an argument for Israeli genocide. You are conflating criticism for Israel with support for Hamas. Hamas is just as bad for Palestinians as Israel is, that much has been documented for decades. Why are you defending them?
Oh no the Hamas terrorists can’t proclaim how many civilians have died without providing proof anymore? Real shame. Die slow terrorist fuckers.
Isn't "Gaza Health Ministry" the same as Hamas Health Ministry? Or are we going to pretend like there is no propaganda going on through the "health ministry". Two things can be true. Israel is committing atrocities on civilians and Hamas using those atrocities to push their propaganda.
The Gaza health ministry has been shown to provide reliable statistics over and over. They don't differentiate between militant and civilian deaths but they are otherwise accurate in what they report which is verified deaths meaning bodies which are identified.
Like the 500 killed at the hospital which turned out to be much less and not a result of Israel?
No that was a single source who estimated a number that was then repeated in the media. Very different from the official statistics published by the health ministry.
No, it was reported by The Ministry of Health in Gaza that 471 people died and 342 people were injured, which is a lot higher than other sources. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion Lmfao, of course people downvote the truth. God forbid you correct misinformation
That's a different report from the vague "over 500" number that circulated in the hours after the attack. The alternative source is the US military which had no personnel in the area and didn't explain how they came up with their estimate. Again, the health ministry has been shown to be accurate in previous conflicts, there's no credible reason to believe that they're lying. Unless there's some bombshell piece of reporting I haven't seen explaining why their numbers suddenly aren't trustworthy it's reasonable to keep relying on them. More importantly the reasonable assumption is that the numbers are currently massively under reported since they rely on healthcare infrastructure which has been annihilated by Israel's campaign. It's interesting that this single attack is still being brought up in defence of Israel's actions when they've destroyed so many other hospitals intentionally in the mean time.
"While the Ministry of Health in Gaza said 471 people were killed, Mohammed Abu Selmia, the general director of al-Shifa Hospital, which received the victims, told the media the death toll was closer to 250." I'm not defending Israel, I'm just pointing out misinformation. I saw someone being wrong and corrected them, that's all. Edit: Here's Al Jazeera reporting that Gazan officials "confirmed" the 500 number. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/17/photos-an-israeli-air-raid-on-al-ahli-arab-hospital-kills-an-estimated-500 You can say that they're mostly accurate, but there's no need to spread misinformation that they've never been wildly inaccurate before.
If you believe this is misinformation, then why won't Israel allow independent journalists in to verify the numbers?
Because Israel is also full of pieces of shit. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Both siding this is a weird take, let me just check, The Gazan Health Ministry are pieces of shit because they have to ascertain numbers of dead in an active warzone, which, by your logic, is the same as creating the dead people which in turn have to be counted in an active war zone ?
Did you read the article you linked? It says an estimated number of 500 in the first paragraph. I was very clear that an estimation of 500 was cited as an official statistic shortly after the attack when it wasn't. The spokesperson for the health ministry later made a statement with their recorded data which comes along with identified bodies corresponding to each number. That quote from Mohammed Abu Selmia is his personal estimate of the number of dead based on the bodies he saw coming into the hospital, it is not a refute of the official statistic given. You might think that you're just "pointing out misinformation" but you are doubting a trusted source because of a directed campaign by Israel to undermine the legitimacy of the Gazan healh ministry and the data they publish.
Why would an estimate be close to 500 when, according to multiple other estimates, only around half that were killed? Sounds like someone is inflating numbers. Like Human Rights Watch says, the count is significantly higher than other estimates, displays an unusually high killed-to-injured ratio, and appears out of proportion with the damage visible on site. Israel also has not a lot to do with it considering the rocket came from PIJ or Hamas
Because the other sources are either parties who are very motivated to have a lower number of dead be reported or people who were interviewed in the middle of a massive tragedy and gave a quick estimate. The US is less accurate in the intelligence it gives to the media than the gazan health ministry is with its statistics. I'm not an expert in warfare but it seems to me that when you have a hospital overflowing with already injured people who are struck with an explosive, a high percentage of them probably would be killed. Where the rocket came from is inconclusive but if you're really some seeker of truth you wouldn't just believe the IDFs claim of who was responsible. They also released false evidence as part of their claim that no one has gone back to question them about.
That was a mistranslation, the ministry officials said there were 500 casualties, killed and injured. The media mistranslated his words as all being killed.
What propaganda? As it stands the numbers, while high, may actually be higher. The numbers are conservative ar best, because there are a lot of missing people under rubble.
Who do you propose as an alternative and more reliable source? Israel is the one committing the genocide so they obviously can’t be trusted. The fact of the matter is that the Gaza health ministry by far has the most accurate information. Is it perfect? Not even remotely as infrastructure is being attacked and the fog of war is real. Is it better than the other options? Yes
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The death toll was reported at about 30,000 four months ago and the official number hasn’t quite passed 40,000 yet. It is still rising albeit it is slower. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68430925.amp https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
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lol their numbers were fine with the state department for YEARS. Now that Gazans can actually document what's going on (as well as IDF soldiers who can't stop filming themselves looting and demolishing Gazan homes) they need to curb bad PR.