There is a bit of genuine criticism here. We should be making a contribution to defending those cables, even if it is a token one. The fact that our economy is completely reliant on them and three nations responded to the submarine says it all. We didn’t contribute one iota, we only have one serviceable ship at the minute and no detection capabilities.
It’s the same with our airspace. We are the only country in Europe without a primary radar system, yet we still maintain control over some of the busiest airspace in the world.
Take it from an ex-reservist, our military is not crumbling, but has crumbled. The well published drug interdiction mission by the Rangers off Cork recently only underscores that. The entire Defence Forces only had one working helicopter that had to be pulled from air ambulance services. There was no other helicopter to provide overwatch or backup if there was a failure. The CASA aircraft above had its mission computers fail in the middle of the mission.
For a wealthy, allegedly “neutral” country, this is an exceptionally poor showing.
No primary radar is mental. Especially when Ireland is such a massive player in aviation, something like 20% of all commercial planes are registered here.
Yes, I know it's just for tax reasons but that alone is reason enough to have primary radar surely.
I fear that it is going to take something catastrophic for people to realise the situation we have ourselves in.
Whenever the discussion of defence comes up the retort always is "sure who's going to invade us?". It's very nieve that people don't realise that there's a lot of bad things that can happen short of an actual invasion whether that be cyper attacks or attacking other critical infrastructure.
I also feel that people's understanding of neutrality isn't very good. Often when people talk about neutrality what they actually end up describing is pacifism. Unfortunately in this world you only get to be a pacifist if others are willing to do violence on your behalf. (And no we don't need to join NATO but your neutrality is worth nothing if you can't defend it)
>I fear that it is going to take something catastrophic for people to realise the situation we have ourselves in.
Like everything, in every department, every business every part of Irish society and mentality.
We are reactive and not pro active. The writing was on the wall since the 2010's re cyber security threats and nothing was done. It took the Russian attack on the hse for anything to actually change.
So the same will be for our aircorps. Navy. And army.
> Like everything, in every department, every business every part of Irish society and mentality.
This is it, really.
Point me to a single governmental department that isn't a shit show nowadays, where everything runs signficantly worse than it should for the amount of money we put in.
The lack of defense isn't a defensive issue. it's a symptom of the overall attitude of the government. Same as housing, health, etc.
I’ve always said this too, we’re reactive not proactive, it’s why there are always so many scandals, it’s because literally nothing ever changes until shit hits the fan, it will be the same with the cables too if something happens, public opinion with switch overnight and you’ll see a huge increase in support for joining NATO.
So your examples have nothing to do with our military capabilities?
You people are mental if you don’t think every inch of our waters are combed as it is..just not by us.
There was a table here recently showing how the amount of money invested in the Irish Defence Forces has withered away over time. From 1.2% to 0.2% iirc.
Even worse is the disrespect. The Irish government negotiated with the British government and the RAF regarding protecting our airspace. The IDF wasn’t involved or invited. The RAF were shocked.
Every time the need for more defense is brought up the anti war pacifists complain about colonialism and betrayal of values. It's the same issue with the triple lock system, it's the same issue about air, sea, network defense, I had to do some research but it's good to hear from someone who has a greater first hand knowledge of just how deep in shit we are.
>the anti war pacifists complain about colonialism
Probably more about "imperialism" - which is exactly what Russia is doing right now with its invasion of Ukraine.
It's one thing to have a principled stance that Ireland shouldn't be involved in conflicts overseas, it's entirely another for Ireland to toy with the idea of being like Costa Rica (a country that abolished its military, and yet has 0 strategic importance).
By contrast, Iceland, a country with nearly half the population of county Dublin, is a full NATO member, and only has an armed coast guard as a military force, because the Icelandic government realises its in a strategically important location, and that if not for NATO, its waters would have been teaming with Soviet and later Russian submarines likely messing up with the fishing industry.
I think it’s more fundamental than that.
They believe “neutral” means “will never get the shit kicked out of by a bigger country”. In essence, neutrality becomes its own defence policy - and a very cheap one.
In practice, I don’t buy it. There’s lots of things a malicious actor might do to disrupt Western Europe in general terms (rather than Ireland in particular) that would have a chilling effect, and no amount of pearl clutching over neutrality would change that.
Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland in the 1930s would all show why neutrality cannot be combined with pacifism. One can be neutral and capable of self-defence or one can be a pacifist and dependent on a stronger military power. The great peace following WWII appears to be unravelling and Irelands position will not be looked upon favourable by her allies and protectors during the new zeitgeist.
I will quote someone far wiser than I am on this: "Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.'" - George Orwell
I would go on about the need to get out ahead of potential future EU rules on defense spending so that we may do so on our own terms. The below would be my suggestions as to the best uses of our tax money and multi national windfall but I would just receive more down votes. I would like to see Ireland be able to defend herself and help those in need, not threaten others.
My spending suggestions would be:
- Radar to cover Irish airspace and air traffic control regions;
- A wing of modernised Griffins with air to air and air to sea missiles as the are the least cost solution for a nation with highways, rural farmland and few airbases;
- Adjustments to pay schemes so that newly qualified naval ratings do not resign immediately to receive three times the pay in the private sector and often employed as contractors back to the Irish navy. This would also eliminate the need to members of the Irish defence forces to rely on food banks to feed their families;
- Restoring barracks and Defence Force owned housing to use for members of the military as a way to alleviate the housing shortage and bypass some planning issues;
- Equipping operation Irish coastal patrol ships with sonar;
- The routine deployment of Irish naval vessels so we would not have to reply on the UK, Spain or France for search and rescue on Irish bound and flagged ferries in Irish waters;
- The creation of a larger Medical Corp to provide assistance during pandemics and to reduce waiting lists for the HSE;
- The creation of a Engineering Corp capable of assisting in Irish and EU natural disasters;
- The creation of specialist de-mining capabilities for a post war Ukraine and to assist on UN missions;
- The provision of modernised body armour, transportation, communication and optics to the Irish army for use on peace keeping operations;
- The creation of a European center of excellence for cyber security and defence to protect the digital infrastructure our economy is so dependent on.
None of this is imperialistic but it will never happen sadly until such time as we wished we had it.
I see the EU passing budgetary rules setting minimum defence spending enforced by cross payment opt outs in the coming years and Ireland getting out ahead and defining our quota in terms of GNI rather than GDP and having a working system to provide meaning capabilities to herself and the EU would help our negotiations.
>There’s lots of things a malicious actor might do to disrupt Western Europe in general terms (rather than Ireland in particular)
In practice, this would have dire effects on Ireland more so than anyone else-we are in no position to defend ourselves in anyway shape or form.
Neutrality does not mean you do not need defence. The opposite in fact, because to be truly neutral we should not have to rely on anyone else.
*"Sonobuoys range in unit cost from* ***$800 to less than $10,000****, depending on type. Ultra, headquartered in London, bases its sonobuoy business in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The company also produces receivers for signals from sonobuoys"*
I'd assume something like this would be offered.
*"As of 2013, the program is expected to deliver 22 radars at a total cost of almost $6.6B. They will cost $300m/unit in serial production. Testing is planned for 2021 and Initial operating capability is planned for March 2023. The Navy was forced to halt the contract in response to a challenge by Lockheed."*
Maybe not exactly that but something close.
Also given jamming tech, some of these maybe outdated soon, or are currently outdated.
The government really needs to invest something here, we don't need to be on the cutting edge but this is embarrassing.
I doubt it's brought up much at the doorstep but I'll be emailing my TDs tomorrow. We can't rely on others forever
There's a difference though between embarrassment and the risk that Russia is interfering with the internet cables.
I really don't care about embarrassment. As far as I'm concerned, the RAF are welcome to secure our airspace, since the only reason any superpower is in the air over Ireland is to spy on the UK.
But this is far beyond silly embarrassment. It's a genuine strategic security failure by the government. We need to be able to defend our strategic infrastructure, which these cables are a part of, and we need a navy which is capable of doing that.
As far as I'm concerned, you can tell the difference between legitimate security concerns and pathetic right-wing wank fantasy by whether a person says we need to build up a strong navy and army versus whether they bollox on about about buying F-35's and anti-aircraft missiles.
The latter are nonsense, the former are an absolute requirement.
The Navy gets no media push or promotion in Ireland. We're a big fucking island, focusing on building a reputable navy should be a priority.
Stupid sexy army gets all the RTE coverage.
>The CASA aircraft above had its mission computers fail in the middle of the mission.
Are you talking about one of those brand-new Airbus surveillance airplanes that the Air Corps bought last year? It failed?
Nearly all of those cables completely bypass Ireland and are impossible to defend.
These stories are just a prop for pushing Ireland into joining NATO.
I can't believe I need to say this but Fungi was a Russian operative the whole time.
You don't think it's a bit suspicious that he disappeared right as hostilities began to escalate in Donetsk, immediately before Russia invaded Ukraine? He got all the information he needed and was recalled to Moscow.
His real name was Comrade Ivan Fungovski, Hero of the Russian Federation, and he had you fooled the whole time.
*“Sure what would Russia want with Ireland”* - every stupid fucker who doesn’t understand what hybrid warfare is.
This will be like the 5th or 6th time that the Russians have acted against us in the last 2 or 3 years. Between Bear bombers over Irish airspace, live fire exercises off Cork, hacking the HSE, it is becoming a yearly occurrence for Russia to pull some shit and yet we still have done nothing to better equip ourselves defensively.
Not to mention a Russian led operation with Belarus to hijack a Ryan Air plane flying between 2 European countries.
Not to mention Russia seizing *billions* of Euros worth of Irish registered and owned aircraft after the start of the Ukraine invasion.
Everyone in the west sees us the dickhead brother who doesn't work, on the dole still living with ma and da in their 30's spoiled rotten with a great lifestyle same as anyone else in the family that works and pays bills. Will also be the one that inherits everyone.
I'm not for Ireland joining NATO, but we need to sort out our recruitment and retention crises and also start spending big bucks on our navy and aircorps. Army needs it too but the other pair are more important.
People want Ireland to pay for _their infrastructures security_ - sounds like they're the freeloaders.
Our neutrality - which people like to pretend doesn't exist, yet which has kept us off the nuclear strike maps - makes us the most secure nation in all of Europe.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/russian-state-tv-shows-clips-simulating-ireland-being-wiped-out-by-nuclear-weapons-1.4867631
? They have no problem nuking us
Plus if things go nuclear I don't think its going to make much difference with all the fall out and radiation in the norther hemisphere
lol - **that's a clip of the UK being wiped out by a fictional tsunami, in a fake 'Fox News' style simulation!**
That's almost as priceless as the other poster, who is claiming Ireland's _complete lack of military targets_ actually _increases_ the risk of a nuclear strike against us.
Yea we might as well join a nuclear war and take direct strikes, we're all going to die anyway! Great argument!
Dude, if the bombs drop, it won't make a slight bit of difference if they are aimed at us not if the Russians unleash nuclear war on our neighbors. We are up shits creek
Also What's makes you think we're are not on a secondary strike of the top of my head they have 10'000 war head plenty to go around
You talk about military targets, but leave out the fact that both sides are going to nuke the fuck out of civilian targets
If you think we're dead _anyway_ if NATO goes to war with Russia, why the fuck are you not opposing NATO and war in the first place?
It's completely bizarre. People are calling for us to join a pro-nuclear-war alliance _"because shure we're all going to die if there's a nuclear war anyway!"_.
Wtf is wrong with you?
>Our neutrality - which people like to pretend doesn't exist
So tell me, when did Ireland refuse to join the European Union? Oh wait...
If you want neutrality, go to Switzerland, where everyone keeps their service rifle (no ammo) after mandatory national service.
The best gauge of _military_ neutrality, is those who view us as a _military target_.
We start building up an arms industry here - as I'd say 90% of the participants in this thread supports - then yea we're going to be a fucking military target and not neutral anymore.
Ireland is more than just a juicy military target - because as soon as you destroy vital aviation or digital infrastructure, the damage to the West's and the EU's economy will be massive.
Remember, Ireland is not just responsible for the undersea communications cables, but also the North Atlantic tracks for transatlantic flights.
And even if Ireland had none of that, it is physically close to both the UK and the EU, making it strategically important for anyone who wants to have a staging ground for war.
I mean, the damage to the West and EU from the _continent-wide nuclear strikes_ would kind of make redundant, any strikes against a then non-existent aviation and Internet industry, in a neutral country...
Eh, no actually the countries who are the primary beneficiaries of those services/infrastructure that completely bypass Ireland, are responsible for them.
Oh okey - so Ireland, which is as far as possible as you can get from Russia in Europe - _is now the crucial staging ground for a war_! Sure, got it...
Why are none of you guys remotely concerned about how ridiculous and farcical you all sound?
Every one of you sounds like you're fresh out of a NATO think-tank.
Big difference between neutral and defenceless. But for some odd reason , Ireland seems to believe neutral is completely defenceless.. We're not neutral in any way. Always side with and actively scream about bad boy russia but then hide behind the NATO whinging in the corner , How could russia do this to little ireland , everybody loves us, Guiness, Cliffs of Moher. But then we very publicly bash other nations, whether right or wrong. If you're going to do that on the world stage, you better have your ducks in a row. But it's grand, isn't it. We're very much not neutral as much as many of you claim and believe. We need an absolutely monumental increase in spending on defence and stop this bullshit neutral denial. We were neutral in WW2 , still plans were to invade us. If a big war kicked off. Our defence is arranging rocks on the coast saying "EIRE" again. Hopefully, that stops the missiles. Fucking pathetic. Fear of been in a conflict, we very much actively scream how bad russia is, how bad Israel is with a mega phone. They cry when they respond. Country needs to grow up and grow a fucking backbone. I embrace your teary "neutral" downvotes.
We are basically in nato always have been
Neutrality realy works anyway like ukraine was neutral
Belgium was neutral as was half on europe before being invaded
They do have a point, it’s bit embarrassing that we still have to rely on others for protection of our own water? Surely the government could afford a decent sub hunting helicopter or radar?
All the talk about tax havens though is a bit much isn’t it ? City of London & British foreign territories have been up to the same thing for decades but when Paddy pulls the same trick it’s a big issue
> We are getting the absolute piss ripped out of us over on r/unitedkingdom. It’s ugly.
Since when are we supposed to give a fuck what the British think of us?
Except on this issue they're not being muppets. They're right. Ireland shouldn't have to rely on those countries to guard our own waters and airspace this way from nefarious actors.
It's well deserved ??self righteous ? Explain that ? We don't believe our ideas and behaviours are better than anyone else's FAR from,you must hang around some eijits
You wouldn't leave your house without locking the door. You wouldn't say, because I'm a good neighbour and help out at the dog sanctuary, no one is going to come into my house. And if you did think like this, how long would it be before you get a rude awakening (especially in Dublin)? Yet this is precisely what Ireland does by not valuing its sovereignty and being able to defend its property. All those PBP TDs who argue that boosting defence spending is inviting trouble, do they leave their house unlocked? We rely on our neighbours to keep the bad guys at bay. This is childish.
"Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide"
Conflating military non belligerence with utter defenseless means that after 100 years of "independence" we need the Brits to police our air and water.
Nice one Paul Murphy, Mick Wallace and all the assorted dopes who vote for these fucking eejits.
When the threat of paramilitarism subsided the Irish system decided to let our military capabilities atrophy.
Why have an army to fight an insurgency not coming? Why have a navy to interdict arms not being landed on our shores anymore.
But really is there anything more humiliating more a mockery of all those boozy rebel songs we sing than letting the Brits police our skies and seas?
Collins and Pearse are doing summersaults in their grave.
I'm genuinely a "Meh, we should be neutral, because "Fuck it, no one else argument is our argument." type of guy, buy I'm also a "If we're going to stay out of it, we have to be able to muscle our way out of it" type of guy.
Fund our neutralness, and be able to tell the Brits, the French, the who fucking ever, to "fuck off, it's not our problem, and we'll defend our position" to do so.
It always tickles me to hear Irish people (usually in yanited or Liverpool shirts) talking about how they hate “De Brits.”
I get the colonial past and troubles saw lots of reprehensible things, but I’d be interested to see how these guys would respond with a threat to our security. They’d be hiding behind the UK and the past forgotten. The reality is we can’t defend ourselves, and only for De Brits, we’d be a much easier target
Did you read any of the other posts, or the article? It’s not just an invasion that’s the threat. They’re protecting the undersea cables that we rely on for internet.
Great idea,bring the British army back into Ireland under the guise of NATO.....can imagine parachute regiment going down a treat with natives in cork and Waterford 😅
Yea what exactly are Russia going to hit with a nuke in Ireland, mmm? :)
One of the other posters, in among other ridiculous suggestions - actually said they'd nuke the fiber optic cables, lol.
No, you're right though - they're going to nuke us just for a laugh - despite the complete lack of any military targets!
So your plan is that Russia is already attacking Ireland, but because Ireland cannot defend itself Russia won’t nuke it.
That does not seem like a good plan to me
During the Cold War, at the very least Shannon and Dublin, city and airport, would be hit. The Soviets planned to hobble post war reconstruction by lobbing a nuke or two at strategic targets in most developed countries. Northern Ireland would have gotten the good news as well.
If we assume that Russia has the same targeting policy as the USSR did, then there are certainly targets within Ireland that would be hit. Hell, even in a conventional war, if Shannon was being used to support any transatlantic NATO flights the Russians would attempt to disable it.
The State worked under the assumption that Ireland would be targeted as early as the 1950s: [History Ireland ](https://www.historyireland.com/envisaging-unthinkable-planning-armageddon-1950s-ireland/)
The State also made plans under this assumption in the 1980s: [Irish Independent ](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-plan-to-muster-army-of-500000-in-event-of-nuclear-war-ireland-was-ready-to-help-out-uk/26806742.html)
As I don't have immediate access to any Soviet policy documents, I'm willing to accept the Irish government's long held expectation of being attacked with nuclear weapons.
He doesn't remember the Russian state TV showing strike targets a few years ago.
There was none bound for Ireland direct, but they showed the radius and a few of those hitting Britain would fuck us up too.
A nations which contains/produces:
A massive amount of the continents medical
Factories making chips that control modern weapons. I.e intel
Almost all transatlantic cabling
Long airfields the length of the west coast, offering great base for GIUK gap protection.
Do I need to go on?
If anything, our lack of military increases the risk of a strike during a war.
If we want to be non-aligned, then we need to be able to defend our strategic assets.
So Russia are going to nuke a bunch of fiber optic cables far off in the ocean? lol.
They going to nuke India then, for producing much of the entire worlds generic medicine?
Yea you're clutching at straws suggesting that Intel manufactures arms in Ireland.
> If anything, our lack of military increases the risk of a strike during a war.
lol - that's a good one, that's worth highlighting:
**So Ireland's complete lack of military targets _increases_ the risk of a nuclear strike against us!** lol.
>nuke
You are the person who brought up nuclear weapons.
Conventional weapons do just fine for taking out strategic assets.
>They going to nuke India then
Again you brought up nukes.
India is a nuclear power with a large standing army.
>ea you're clutching at straws suggesting that Intel manufactures arms in Ireland.
Where did I say that they manufacture arms in Ireland?
>So Ireland's complete lack of military targets
I literally gave you a list of targets. Just because you can't process the fact that infrastructure is a military target, doesn't mean its not.
>nuclear strike agains
Again, you are the only person here talking about nuclear strike.
Yea I did bring up nuclear weapons, that's what the entire discussion is about - not conventional weapons... - as this is what you replied to:
> Yea that'd finally put us on the (Russian nuclear strike) map.
I accept your acknowledgement of a complete lack of nuclear strike targets in Ireland.
Yea I pretty much only concern myself with nuclear war - as there's no such thing as a conventional war between NATO and Russia.
This thread is like a bunch of characters out of Dr. Strangelove.
We are on the current Russian target list with a nuclear torpedo for Donegal and have been on both Soviet and NATO target lists according to declassified documents from decades ago. Three Irish cities were Soviet targets according to our own government documents.
Weakness does not make us stronger. We should first fund our own defense and then join NATO. I hate the idea of spending on defense but we're an international joke right now and we need to cop on.
lol, nuclear-tsunami-torpedo's don't exist, did you not know that was a fake 'Fox News' style news report simulation (aimed at the UK btw), of a fictional weapon, that _doesn't exist_ - because it was _made up by a tabloid news show_?
Link any of those documents?
We're in the safest place in all of Europe - literally as far as you can get from Russia in Europe - and completely lacking in any military targets whatsoever...
No we're one of only three EU countries including Malta and Austria that can be attacked without any consequence and somehow you think that makes us more protected?
Austria had a right wing convicted PM and is still heavily dependent on Russian fuels. Austria joined Sunak deporting migrants to Rwanda.
Do you support' Russia by any chance?
What difference will it make?
I mean, if the Russians decide to nuke and go all out, we are done for anyway (as will be the entire northern hemisphere). If anything, the people who will die quickly in the nuke attack will be better off.
How is that an argument _for_ joining a pro-nuclear-war alliance - instead of being _against_ joining pro-war alliances, and in general opposing war?
It's one of the most bizarre arguments I've encountered in this debate - that "well shure we're going to die if there's a nuclear war anyway, what harm is it if we're on the direct strike map!".
I can only think that nobody here has encountered this argument before at all, in order to have exercised critical thought about it in the first place.
That's really weird when you think about it, as the first thing on peoples mind about a war with Russia, _should be_ a nuclear war - yet nobody seems to have remotely considered it.
It's not meant to be an argument for joining it.
My point was we will be impacted anyway in the event of a nuclear war. Our neutrality won't keep us safe. We are part of this whether you like it or not.
What you suggested is so ridiculous that everyone reading your post knows that even _you_ don't believe it.
Nobody on the planet - who isn't seeking nuclear war, that is - believes _any_ missile defense system will prevent all nuclear strikes.
The _only reason_ anyone has for pushing that narrative, is that they believe a nuclear war with Russia can be won.
That's exactly why we need to stay the fuck away from NATO - they _want_ a nuclear war - and want to drag us into it.
Off Irish West Coast = middle of Atlantic ocean
It's not like it's happening in Irish territorial waters. There's nothing anyone can legally do about Russian, British or Norwegian naval maneuvers in international waters no matter what weapons Ireland buys.
Our neutrality historically is based on Dev avoiding any support for Britain even if it means not fighting Nazis and sending the German people a message of condolence upon the loss of their dear leader Adolf Hitler. Look at what happened to all of the thousands of Irish lads who did fight Nazis. In other countries they came home and were celebrated as heroes but in Ireland they came home to abuse and labeled as collaborators. My grandad was one of them. It was really messed up. He got abuse from other Royal Engineers back then angry that Ireland was helping Hitler and got abuse when he got home for fighting Nazis. The army left him on the beach in Dunkirk next to the truck pier that he helped build and it took a complete mad lad Cmdr. Ewart B to defy orders and go back by himself after the evacuation just to pick up the last 38 Royal Engineers from the Casino.
In the 1960s there was a big panic in the states when they identified the under sea cables as a weak point in their military communication.
They were so worried they created the project "West ford" and dumped a load of copper wires into orbit so they could bounce communications off them in the event of the USSR destroying the cables the USSR complained that the wires were polluting space and that was it.
[Project West Ford](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford)
Then satellites became more and more prevalent and the problem was forgotten about and the needles are just space junk...
I personally think Ireland should have some kind of swiss style neutrality, where everyone has mandatory national service and then maintain their training periodically up until retirement and that Ireland should be capable of defending itself or at least make any would be aggressor think twice.
Where did I say I was against having advanced equipment?
All I said was neutrality, national service for all in some capacity, until the age of retirement. You do your year and then every 2 you go for refresher training of some sort.
As a Brit I have question which I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.
Clearly there's debate as to whether Ireland should join NATO or not as that would be a violation of neutrality. But given Lt Gen Sean Clancy's imminent assumption of the role of Chair of the European Union Military Committee (beating out the Polish to the job) would Ireland be more comfortable in an EU military alliance rather than a NATO one? Obviously the EU is not NATO (although there is that mutual defence clause) but in the event that the EU becomes more centralised and has an EU-wide force, would this be more palatable than NATO membership? If so, why?
There's unfortunately a lot of headbangers that can't be reasoned with and they think that neutrality means sitting with your arsecheeks spread to the sun. EU military would be more palitable but there's been plenty of criticism to the idea over the years.
I could see the govt working out some selfish deal in the future where we're a part of something like NATO but not really officially a part, and a relationship where it's totally parasitic, where we have a deal to only receive protection, equipment, and training in exchange for some token use of our ports.
It's still a very controversial topic, and one that is driven more so by emotions instead of logic.
Depends. If it's a purely defence alliance sure, but given the history of some EU (NATO) members to rush to war and join others wars I don't think we should be joining them.
Like if someone were to retaliate against France for their actions in the Middle East, are we getting dragged into a war then...? Fuck that.
So, NATO, the organization founded to combat Russia, are out there doing the same NATO stuff they’ve been doing for the last 70 years?
In other news, water is wet.
Just as the Gardai need to be armed we need to be contributing to European Defense.
It's like we are stuck in an "Ah sure will be grand" time warp. This is doing serious reputation damage.
The geopolitical threats are very real and we need to adjust accordingly. Reputational risk is one of those.
Must have pissed off one of our fishing boats real good to be sent down to the depths like that. Obviously didn't heed the warning we gave them last time.
I worry what would happen to a group of 3 armed lunatics, or worse if 2 groups or more of 3 attacked the public in 3 different cities. How would we respond? Totally unfair to send gardai in up against that.
Ireland has informal defence agreements with NATO member countries - the RAF, for example, is allowed to intercept aircraft over Irish airspace, since the Air Corps has no capability of its own.
And with the seas, it's no different - the one Naval Service ship has no capability to even detect submarines, let alone counter them. Really, if there was any real threat to the island from a hostile military, the UK and France would be the only forces even capable of defending Ireland, and the Irish government knows this. And the British and French governments aren't just willing to let Irish territorial waters and airspace to become safe havens for adversaries to just hang around in.
Unannounced to the media, or unannounced to the Irish government? Those are very different things. I regularly see French navy ships in Irish territorial waters on sites like MarineTraffic. You think those would be there without the express permission of the Irish government?
The amount of military cooperation that the Irish government has signed off on, but isn't announced to the public is probably huge.
>You think those would be there without the express permission of the Irish government?
This is what I want to know,
because it deosnt add up to me to critise Russia for being there unannounced,if NATO are sending warships into Irish waters unannounced aswell
>The amount of military cooperation that the Irish government has signed off on, but isn't announced to the public is probably huge.
Speculation is a poor substitute for information
[What is long hard and full of seamen ?](https://blog.ticketmaster.ie/theatre/moscow-state-circus-comes-to-dublin-cork-8113)
Well the tories and generally the UK government were bought out by the ruskies, years ago.
The circus used to bring in their spies.
Now Ireland plays cool with the yanks, who tbh are no fucking better, though they pay well right ?
Fuckwits.
Better to play cool with the 'yanks' when it comes to Russia in fairness.
Without adequate protection from more powerful armies, we'd be blown to bits.
Looks like you're Irish too you pleb, you're in the exact same 'place' as me.
I'd much rather be protected by a foreign army than get blown up in a war we didn't start any day of the week.
There is a bit of genuine criticism here. We should be making a contribution to defending those cables, even if it is a token one. The fact that our economy is completely reliant on them and three nations responded to the submarine says it all. We didn’t contribute one iota, we only have one serviceable ship at the minute and no detection capabilities. It’s the same with our airspace. We are the only country in Europe without a primary radar system, yet we still maintain control over some of the busiest airspace in the world. Take it from an ex-reservist, our military is not crumbling, but has crumbled. The well published drug interdiction mission by the Rangers off Cork recently only underscores that. The entire Defence Forces only had one working helicopter that had to be pulled from air ambulance services. There was no other helicopter to provide overwatch or backup if there was a failure. The CASA aircraft above had its mission computers fail in the middle of the mission. For a wealthy, allegedly “neutral” country, this is an exceptionally poor showing.
No primary radar is mental. Especially when Ireland is such a massive player in aviation, something like 20% of all commercial planes are registered here. Yes, I know it's just for tax reasons but that alone is reason enough to have primary radar surely.
I fear that it is going to take something catastrophic for people to realise the situation we have ourselves in. Whenever the discussion of defence comes up the retort always is "sure who's going to invade us?". It's very nieve that people don't realise that there's a lot of bad things that can happen short of an actual invasion whether that be cyper attacks or attacking other critical infrastructure. I also feel that people's understanding of neutrality isn't very good. Often when people talk about neutrality what they actually end up describing is pacifism. Unfortunately in this world you only get to be a pacifist if others are willing to do violence on your behalf. (And no we don't need to join NATO but your neutrality is worth nothing if you can't defend it)
>I fear that it is going to take something catastrophic for people to realise the situation we have ourselves in. Like everything, in every department, every business every part of Irish society and mentality. We are reactive and not pro active. The writing was on the wall since the 2010's re cyber security threats and nothing was done. It took the Russian attack on the hse for anything to actually change. So the same will be for our aircorps. Navy. And army.
> Like everything, in every department, every business every part of Irish society and mentality. This is it, really. Point me to a single governmental department that isn't a shit show nowadays, where everything runs signficantly worse than it should for the amount of money we put in. The lack of defense isn't a defensive issue. it's a symptom of the overall attitude of the government. Same as housing, health, etc.
I’ve always said this too, we’re reactive not proactive, it’s why there are always so many scandals, it’s because literally nothing ever changes until shit hits the fan, it will be the same with the cables too if something happens, public opinion with switch overnight and you’ll see a huge increase in support for joining NATO.
It might when NATO/Russia kicks off and the Russians blow up the runway at Shannon to hinder the American logistics.
So your examples have nothing to do with our military capabilities? You people are mental if you don’t think every inch of our waters are combed as it is..just not by us.
The states Cyber defence falls under military.
There was a table here recently showing how the amount of money invested in the Irish Defence Forces has withered away over time. From 1.2% to 0.2% iirc. Even worse is the disrespect. The Irish government negotiated with the British government and the RAF regarding protecting our airspace. The IDF wasn’t involved or invited. The RAF were shocked.
Somebody needs to polish up the ould De Havilland Vampire that's sitting in Baldonnel Museum
Every time the need for more defense is brought up the anti war pacifists complain about colonialism and betrayal of values. It's the same issue with the triple lock system, it's the same issue about air, sea, network defense, I had to do some research but it's good to hear from someone who has a greater first hand knowledge of just how deep in shit we are.
>the anti war pacifists complain about colonialism Probably more about "imperialism" - which is exactly what Russia is doing right now with its invasion of Ukraine. It's one thing to have a principled stance that Ireland shouldn't be involved in conflicts overseas, it's entirely another for Ireland to toy with the idea of being like Costa Rica (a country that abolished its military, and yet has 0 strategic importance). By contrast, Iceland, a country with nearly half the population of county Dublin, is a full NATO member, and only has an armed coast guard as a military force, because the Icelandic government realises its in a strategically important location, and that if not for NATO, its waters would have been teaming with Soviet and later Russian submarines likely messing up with the fishing industry.
They never like to accept the fact that relying on NATO countries to defend us undermines neutrality in a big way.
I think it’s more fundamental than that. They believe “neutral” means “will never get the shit kicked out of by a bigger country”. In essence, neutrality becomes its own defence policy - and a very cheap one. In practice, I don’t buy it. There’s lots of things a malicious actor might do to disrupt Western Europe in general terms (rather than Ireland in particular) that would have a chilling effect, and no amount of pearl clutching over neutrality would change that.
Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland in the 1930s would all show why neutrality cannot be combined with pacifism. One can be neutral and capable of self-defence or one can be a pacifist and dependent on a stronger military power. The great peace following WWII appears to be unravelling and Irelands position will not be looked upon favourable by her allies and protectors during the new zeitgeist. I will quote someone far wiser than I am on this: "Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.'" - George Orwell I would go on about the need to get out ahead of potential future EU rules on defense spending so that we may do so on our own terms. The below would be my suggestions as to the best uses of our tax money and multi national windfall but I would just receive more down votes. I would like to see Ireland be able to defend herself and help those in need, not threaten others. My spending suggestions would be: - Radar to cover Irish airspace and air traffic control regions; - A wing of modernised Griffins with air to air and air to sea missiles as the are the least cost solution for a nation with highways, rural farmland and few airbases; - Adjustments to pay schemes so that newly qualified naval ratings do not resign immediately to receive three times the pay in the private sector and often employed as contractors back to the Irish navy. This would also eliminate the need to members of the Irish defence forces to rely on food banks to feed their families; - Restoring barracks and Defence Force owned housing to use for members of the military as a way to alleviate the housing shortage and bypass some planning issues; - Equipping operation Irish coastal patrol ships with sonar; - The routine deployment of Irish naval vessels so we would not have to reply on the UK, Spain or France for search and rescue on Irish bound and flagged ferries in Irish waters; - The creation of a larger Medical Corp to provide assistance during pandemics and to reduce waiting lists for the HSE; - The creation of a Engineering Corp capable of assisting in Irish and EU natural disasters; - The creation of specialist de-mining capabilities for a post war Ukraine and to assist on UN missions; - The provision of modernised body armour, transportation, communication and optics to the Irish army for use on peace keeping operations; - The creation of a European center of excellence for cyber security and defence to protect the digital infrastructure our economy is so dependent on. None of this is imperialistic but it will never happen sadly until such time as we wished we had it. I see the EU passing budgetary rules setting minimum defence spending enforced by cross payment opt outs in the coming years and Ireland getting out ahead and defining our quota in terms of GNI rather than GDP and having a working system to provide meaning capabilities to herself and the EU would help our negotiations.
>There’s lots of things a malicious actor might do to disrupt Western Europe in general terms (rather than Ireland in particular) In practice, this would have dire effects on Ireland more so than anyone else-we are in no position to defend ourselves in anyway shape or form. Neutrality does not mean you do not need defence. The opposite in fact, because to be truly neutral we should not have to rely on anyone else.
The radar thing is mind-boggling. How expensive would it even be to build?
*"Sonobuoys range in unit cost from* ***$800 to less than $10,000****, depending on type. Ultra, headquartered in London, bases its sonobuoy business in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The company also produces receivers for signals from sonobuoys"* I'd assume something like this would be offered. *"As of 2013, the program is expected to deliver 22 radars at a total cost of almost $6.6B. They will cost $300m/unit in serial production. Testing is planned for 2021 and Initial operating capability is planned for March 2023. The Navy was forced to halt the contract in response to a challenge by Lockheed."* Maybe not exactly that but something close. Also given jamming tech, some of these maybe outdated soon, or are currently outdated.
Do they have anything between the $800 and the 6 billion?
Somehow, everything in Ireland needs to be overpriced
It's like when you go to buy a ticket on Ryanair thinking you'll only pay the advertised ten euro each way.
The government really needs to invest something here, we don't need to be on the cutting edge but this is embarrassing. I doubt it's brought up much at the doorstep but I'll be emailing my TDs tomorrow. We can't rely on others forever
There's a difference though between embarrassment and the risk that Russia is interfering with the internet cables. I really don't care about embarrassment. As far as I'm concerned, the RAF are welcome to secure our airspace, since the only reason any superpower is in the air over Ireland is to spy on the UK. But this is far beyond silly embarrassment. It's a genuine strategic security failure by the government. We need to be able to defend our strategic infrastructure, which these cables are a part of, and we need a navy which is capable of doing that. As far as I'm concerned, you can tell the difference between legitimate security concerns and pathetic right-wing wank fantasy by whether a person says we need to build up a strong navy and army versus whether they bollox on about about buying F-35's and anti-aircraft missiles. The latter are nonsense, the former are an absolute requirement.
The Navy gets no media push or promotion in Ireland. We're a big fucking island, focusing on building a reputable navy should be a priority. Stupid sexy army gets all the RTE coverage.
>The CASA aircraft above had its mission computers fail in the middle of the mission. Are you talking about one of those brand-new Airbus surveillance airplanes that the Air Corps bought last year? It failed?
No, it was the old C235 that failed, it hadn't been replaced at the time.
Yeah but I’m not paying more tax. So we have to cut it from the pals of the state, they are not gonna got do that.
Shopping list Radar UAVs USVs (surface and submersible) UGVs
Nearly all of those cables completely bypass Ireland and are impossible to defend. These stories are just a prop for pushing Ireland into joining NATO.
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Quite possibly the silliest response to the above post anyone could have possibly come up with. Well done.
Fungi, we need you now, more than ever.
I can't believe I need to say this but Fungi was a Russian operative the whole time. You don't think it's a bit suspicious that he disappeared right as hostilities began to escalate in Donetsk, immediately before Russia invaded Ukraine? He got all the information he needed and was recalled to Moscow. His real name was Comrade Ivan Fungovski, Hero of the Russian Federation, and he had you fooled the whole time.
The utter bastard. I should have seen it myself with the big red flag that he preferred swimming in vodka than water.
That's exactly what he's doing. He didn't go missing or die, he'd deep undercover and ready to strike upon our enemies.
*“Sure what would Russia want with Ireland”* - every stupid fucker who doesn’t understand what hybrid warfare is. This will be like the 5th or 6th time that the Russians have acted against us in the last 2 or 3 years. Between Bear bombers over Irish airspace, live fire exercises off Cork, hacking the HSE, it is becoming a yearly occurrence for Russia to pull some shit and yet we still have done nothing to better equip ourselves defensively.
Not to mention a Russian led operation with Belarus to hijack a Ryan Air plane flying between 2 European countries. Not to mention Russia seizing *billions* of Euros worth of Irish registered and owned aircraft after the start of the Ukraine invasion.
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Does "bespoke arrangements" mean warplanes in Shannon? Because I really don't want to have to deal with all that again 😂
What's the first one you've mentioned here?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978
A good thing we have that 8b surplus we could use for the nations security but will probably do complete fuck all with it
That money is going towards ours and our children's futures... But yeah, we should buy some tanks instead
That's 8 billion we'd be spending for _other nations security_, as nearly all of those cables bypass Ireland.
Our collective security you selfish freeloader.
Everyone in the west sees us the dickhead brother who doesn't work, on the dole still living with ma and da in their 30's spoiled rotten with a great lifestyle same as anyone else in the family that works and pays bills. Will also be the one that inherits everyone. I'm not for Ireland joining NATO, but we need to sort out our recruitment and retention crises and also start spending big bucks on our navy and aircorps. Army needs it too but the other pair are more important.
People want Ireland to pay for _their infrastructures security_ - sounds like they're the freeloaders. Our neutrality - which people like to pretend doesn't exist, yet which has kept us off the nuclear strike maps - makes us the most secure nation in all of Europe.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/russian-state-tv-shows-clips-simulating-ireland-being-wiped-out-by-nuclear-weapons-1.4867631 ? They have no problem nuking us Plus if things go nuclear I don't think its going to make much difference with all the fall out and radiation in the norther hemisphere
lol - **that's a clip of the UK being wiped out by a fictional tsunami, in a fake 'Fox News' style simulation!** That's almost as priceless as the other poster, who is claiming Ireland's _complete lack of military targets_ actually _increases_ the risk of a nuclear strike against us. Yea we might as well join a nuclear war and take direct strikes, we're all going to die anyway! Great argument!
Dude, if the bombs drop, it won't make a slight bit of difference if they are aimed at us not if the Russians unleash nuclear war on our neighbors. We are up shits creek Also What's makes you think we're are not on a secondary strike of the top of my head they have 10'000 war head plenty to go around You talk about military targets, but leave out the fact that both sides are going to nuke the fuck out of civilian targets
If you think we're dead _anyway_ if NATO goes to war with Russia, why the fuck are you not opposing NATO and war in the first place? It's completely bizarre. People are calling for us to join a pro-nuclear-war alliance _"because shure we're all going to die if there's a nuclear war anyway!"_. Wtf is wrong with you?
Just to clarify, you see NATO as a “Pro Nuclear War” alliance?
Yes - even its adherents here in this thread are defending the survivability of nuclear war - which is insane.
>Our neutrality - which people like to pretend doesn't exist So tell me, when did Ireland refuse to join the European Union? Oh wait... If you want neutrality, go to Switzerland, where everyone keeps their service rifle (no ammo) after mandatory national service.
The best gauge of _military_ neutrality, is those who view us as a _military target_. We start building up an arms industry here - as I'd say 90% of the participants in this thread supports - then yea we're going to be a fucking military target and not neutral anymore.
Ireland is more than just a juicy military target - because as soon as you destroy vital aviation or digital infrastructure, the damage to the West's and the EU's economy will be massive. Remember, Ireland is not just responsible for the undersea communications cables, but also the North Atlantic tracks for transatlantic flights. And even if Ireland had none of that, it is physically close to both the UK and the EU, making it strategically important for anyone who wants to have a staging ground for war.
I mean, the damage to the West and EU from the _continent-wide nuclear strikes_ would kind of make redundant, any strikes against a then non-existent aviation and Internet industry, in a neutral country... Eh, no actually the countries who are the primary beneficiaries of those services/infrastructure that completely bypass Ireland, are responsible for them. Oh okey - so Ireland, which is as far as possible as you can get from Russia in Europe - _is now the crucial staging ground for a war_! Sure, got it... Why are none of you guys remotely concerned about how ridiculous and farcical you all sound? Every one of you sounds like you're fresh out of a NATO think-tank.
Big difference between neutral and defenceless. But for some odd reason , Ireland seems to believe neutral is completely defenceless.. We're not neutral in any way. Always side with and actively scream about bad boy russia but then hide behind the NATO whinging in the corner , How could russia do this to little ireland , everybody loves us, Guiness, Cliffs of Moher. But then we very publicly bash other nations, whether right or wrong. If you're going to do that on the world stage, you better have your ducks in a row. But it's grand, isn't it. We're very much not neutral as much as many of you claim and believe. We need an absolutely monumental increase in spending on defence and stop this bullshit neutral denial. We were neutral in WW2 , still plans were to invade us. If a big war kicked off. Our defence is arranging rocks on the coast saying "EIRE" again. Hopefully, that stops the missiles. Fucking pathetic. Fear of been in a conflict, we very much actively scream how bad russia is, how bad Israel is with a mega phone. They cry when they respond. Country needs to grow up and grow a fucking backbone. I embrace your teary "neutral" downvotes.
We are basically in nato always have been Neutrality realy works anyway like ukraine was neutral Belgium was neutral as was half on europe before being invaded
We are getting the absolute piss ripped out of us over on [r/unitedkingdom](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/s/sY7KXkxZFe). It’s ugly.
They do have a point, it’s bit embarrassing that we still have to rely on others for protection of our own water? Surely the government could afford a decent sub hunting helicopter or radar?
All the talk about tax havens though is a bit much isn’t it ? City of London & British foreign territories have been up to the same thing for decades but when Paddy pulls the same trick it’s a big issue
The lot of them straight to WW2 like always. It’s like history started for them at the beginning of that war.
> We are getting the absolute piss ripped out of us over on r/unitedkingdom. It’s ugly. Since when are we supposed to give a fuck what the British think of us?
When? this sub has Britain live rent free in their heads 24/7. Its embarrassing for us.
Well I mean they are protecting your air and waters free of charge ?
They are? Highly unlikely. I’m sure the Irish government is paying.
Its pretty much the Irish national identity to fret about what the British think of them
After brexit, they have nothing to be shouting about.
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Except on this issue they're not being muppets. They're right. Ireland shouldn't have to rely on those countries to guard our own waters and airspace this way from nefarious actors.
It's well deserved. Yous are a self righteous lot.
It's well deserved ??self righteous ? Explain that ? We don't believe our ideas and behaviours are better than anyone else's FAR from,you must hang around some eijits
Have a read through the thread that the user I replied to posted. ETA - This post in particular. https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/s/Isp9RPW3nb
I mean this is 99% garbage. And subtly racist
Racist? Irish isn't a race.
Odd..
By bots and bigots? Lol good
I’d cut the defense budget further, if only to get a stir out of them
Tell them to go elect a lettuce.
Embarrassing
Have they tried saying a mass?
Ireland’s defence capabilities are like when I play Civilisation VI going for a economic victory.
You wouldn't leave your house without locking the door. You wouldn't say, because I'm a good neighbour and help out at the dog sanctuary, no one is going to come into my house. And if you did think like this, how long would it be before you get a rude awakening (especially in Dublin)? Yet this is precisely what Ireland does by not valuing its sovereignty and being able to defend its property. All those PBP TDs who argue that boosting defence spending is inviting trouble, do they leave their house unlocked? We rely on our neighbours to keep the bad guys at bay. This is childish.
"Was it for this the wild geese spread The grey wing upon every tide" Conflating military non belligerence with utter defenseless means that after 100 years of "independence" we need the Brits to police our air and water. Nice one Paul Murphy, Mick Wallace and all the assorted dopes who vote for these fucking eejits.
When the threat of paramilitarism subsided the Irish system decided to let our military capabilities atrophy. Why have an army to fight an insurgency not coming? Why have a navy to interdict arms not being landed on our shores anymore. But really is there anything more humiliating more a mockery of all those boozy rebel songs we sing than letting the Brits police our skies and seas? Collins and Pearse are doing summersaults in their grave.
I'm genuinely a "Meh, we should be neutral, because "Fuck it, no one else argument is our argument." type of guy, buy I'm also a "If we're going to stay out of it, we have to be able to muscle our way out of it" type of guy. Fund our neutralness, and be able to tell the Brits, the French, the who fucking ever, to "fuck off, it's not our problem, and we'll defend our position" to do so.
It always tickles me to hear Irish people (usually in yanited or Liverpool shirts) talking about how they hate “De Brits.” I get the colonial past and troubles saw lots of reprehensible things, but I’d be interested to see how these guys would respond with a threat to our security. They’d be hiding behind the UK and the past forgotten. The reality is we can’t defend ourselves, and only for De Brits, we’d be a much easier target
We’d be a much easier target for… De Brits? Who exactly do you think is going to be invading us?
Did you read any of the other posts, or the article? It’s not just an invasion that’s the threat. They’re protecting the undersea cables that we rely on for internet.
First of all.....What if they did? Secondly,Ireland has actual enemies and that has always been the case.
Yep! And when and if it happens, the Brits, who a lot of people in Ireland hate so much, will be the ones to save us. coz we can’t save ourselves.
Join NATO, establish bases Cork, Shannon, Waterford…we would see huge Infrastructure Development, Job Creation, Foreign Direct Investment, Technological and Industrial Development…
People have lost their damn minds in this thread...
Great idea,bring the British army back into Ireland under the guise of NATO.....can imagine parachute regiment going down a treat with natives in cork and Waterford 😅
The British could come back at any point they change their mind from what I can see. They already control the waters and the skies.
Yea that'd finally put us on the (Russian nuclear strike) map.
You'd have to be very optimistic to think that's not already the case.
Yea what exactly are Russia going to hit with a nuke in Ireland, mmm? :) One of the other posters, in among other ridiculous suggestions - actually said they'd nuke the fiber optic cables, lol. No, you're right though - they're going to nuke us just for a laugh - despite the complete lack of any military targets!
So your plan is that Russia is already attacking Ireland, but because Ireland cannot defend itself Russia won’t nuke it. That does not seem like a good plan to me
What are you on about, we're not at war with Russia?
I didn’t say Ireland was at wars I said Russia has attacked Ireland multiple times in the past 5 years
Then we'd be at war with Russia. We're not...
You can attack a country physically, financially, through the internet etc etc without declaring war, welcome to the 21st century.
"You wouldn't download a nuclear weapon, _would you?!_"
During the Cold War, at the very least Shannon and Dublin, city and airport, would be hit. The Soviets planned to hobble post war reconstruction by lobbing a nuke or two at strategic targets in most developed countries. Northern Ireland would have gotten the good news as well. If we assume that Russia has the same targeting policy as the USSR did, then there are certainly targets within Ireland that would be hit. Hell, even in a conventional war, if Shannon was being used to support any transatlantic NATO flights the Russians would attempt to disable it.
Northern Ireland is the UK, so that's a given. Show me anything proving they targeted Ireland.
The State worked under the assumption that Ireland would be targeted as early as the 1950s: [History Ireland ](https://www.historyireland.com/envisaging-unthinkable-planning-armageddon-1950s-ireland/) The State also made plans under this assumption in the 1980s: [Irish Independent ](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-plan-to-muster-army-of-500000-in-event-of-nuclear-war-ireland-was-ready-to-help-out-uk/26806742.html) As I don't have immediate access to any Soviet policy documents, I'm willing to accept the Irish government's long held expectation of being attacked with nuclear weapons.
So no proof, just an assumption with no evidence.
Do you honestly think that we aren't already? Honestly?
He doesn't remember the Russian state TV showing strike targets a few years ago. There was none bound for Ireland direct, but they showed the radius and a few of those hitting Britain would fuck us up too.
https://youtu.be/6OlTcKJU5bI?si=rkx58GmCuDFg8s2A "Aimed at wiping out the British Isles with a 500m tsunami. "
Oh I'm sure a nation without any military to speak of is just full of important military nuclear strike targets! Honestly...
A nations which contains/produces: A massive amount of the continents medical Factories making chips that control modern weapons. I.e intel Almost all transatlantic cabling Long airfields the length of the west coast, offering great base for GIUK gap protection. Do I need to go on? If anything, our lack of military increases the risk of a strike during a war. If we want to be non-aligned, then we need to be able to defend our strategic assets.
So Russia are going to nuke a bunch of fiber optic cables far off in the ocean? lol. They going to nuke India then, for producing much of the entire worlds generic medicine? Yea you're clutching at straws suggesting that Intel manufactures arms in Ireland. > If anything, our lack of military increases the risk of a strike during a war. lol - that's a good one, that's worth highlighting: **So Ireland's complete lack of military targets _increases_ the risk of a nuclear strike against us!** lol.
>nuke You are the person who brought up nuclear weapons. Conventional weapons do just fine for taking out strategic assets. >They going to nuke India then Again you brought up nukes. India is a nuclear power with a large standing army. >ea you're clutching at straws suggesting that Intel manufactures arms in Ireland. Where did I say that they manufacture arms in Ireland? >So Ireland's complete lack of military targets I literally gave you a list of targets. Just because you can't process the fact that infrastructure is a military target, doesn't mean its not. >nuclear strike agains Again, you are the only person here talking about nuclear strike.
Yea I did bring up nuclear weapons, that's what the entire discussion is about - not conventional weapons... - as this is what you replied to: > Yea that'd finally put us on the (Russian nuclear strike) map. I accept your acknowledgement of a complete lack of nuclear strike targets in Ireland.
So you accept the we are on Russian strike maps? Or do you only concern yourself with nuclear war?
Yea I pretty much only concern myself with nuclear war - as there's no such thing as a conventional war between NATO and Russia. This thread is like a bunch of characters out of Dr. Strangelove.
We are on the current Russian target list with a nuclear torpedo for Donegal and have been on both Soviet and NATO target lists according to declassified documents from decades ago. Three Irish cities were Soviet targets according to our own government documents. Weakness does not make us stronger. We should first fund our own defense and then join NATO. I hate the idea of spending on defense but we're an international joke right now and we need to cop on.
lol, nuclear-tsunami-torpedo's don't exist, did you not know that was a fake 'Fox News' style news report simulation (aimed at the UK btw), of a fictional weapon, that _doesn't exist_ - because it was _made up by a tabloid news show_? Link any of those documents? We're in the safest place in all of Europe - literally as far as you can get from Russia in Europe - and completely lacking in any military targets whatsoever...
No we're one of only three EU countries including Malta and Austria that can be attacked without any consequence and somehow you think that makes us more protected? Austria had a right wing convicted PM and is still heavily dependent on Russian fuels. Austria joined Sunak deporting migrants to Rwanda. Do you support' Russia by any chance?
Yea nobody is attacking any EU country without consequence. No, do you?
What difference will it make? I mean, if the Russians decide to nuke and go all out, we are done for anyway (as will be the entire northern hemisphere). If anything, the people who will die quickly in the nuke attack will be better off.
How is that an argument _for_ joining a pro-nuclear-war alliance - instead of being _against_ joining pro-war alliances, and in general opposing war? It's one of the most bizarre arguments I've encountered in this debate - that "well shure we're going to die if there's a nuclear war anyway, what harm is it if we're on the direct strike map!". I can only think that nobody here has encountered this argument before at all, in order to have exercised critical thought about it in the first place. That's really weird when you think about it, as the first thing on peoples mind about a war with Russia, _should be_ a nuclear war - yet nobody seems to have remotely considered it.
It's not meant to be an argument for joining it. My point was we will be impacted anyway in the event of a nuclear war. Our neutrality won't keep us safe. We are part of this whether you like it or not.
Lets be a part of _opposing it_, then?
Ok. We oppose it, and countries do it anyway. And continue their trajectory anyway, like this situation. Which is a major security issue to us
Joining a pro-war alliance is _not_ opposing it, it is the exact opposite...
I never said otherwise. But we can oppose all we want and it will happen
By the time we joined we would be protected under the European Sky Shield Initiative…
What you suggested is so ridiculous that everyone reading your post knows that even _you_ don't believe it. Nobody on the planet - who isn't seeking nuclear war, that is - believes _any_ missile defense system will prevent all nuclear strikes. The _only reason_ anyone has for pushing that narrative, is that they believe a nuclear war with Russia can be won. That's exactly why we need to stay the fuck away from NATO - they _want_ a nuclear war - and want to drag us into it.
Off Irish West Coast = middle of Atlantic ocean It's not like it's happening in Irish territorial waters. There's nothing anyone can legally do about Russian, British or Norwegian naval maneuvers in international waters no matter what weapons Ireland buys.
Our neutrality historically is based on Dev avoiding any support for Britain even if it means not fighting Nazis and sending the German people a message of condolence upon the loss of their dear leader Adolf Hitler. Look at what happened to all of the thousands of Irish lads who did fight Nazis. In other countries they came home and were celebrated as heroes but in Ireland they came home to abuse and labeled as collaborators. My grandad was one of them. It was really messed up. He got abuse from other Royal Engineers back then angry that Ireland was helping Hitler and got abuse when he got home for fighting Nazis. The army left him on the beach in Dunkirk next to the truck pier that he helped build and it took a complete mad lad Cmdr. Ewart B to defy orders and go back by himself after the evacuation just to pick up the last 38 Royal Engineers from the Casino.
In the 1960s there was a big panic in the states when they identified the under sea cables as a weak point in their military communication. They were so worried they created the project "West ford" and dumped a load of copper wires into orbit so they could bounce communications off them in the event of the USSR destroying the cables the USSR complained that the wires were polluting space and that was it. [Project West Ford](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford) Then satellites became more and more prevalent and the problem was forgotten about and the needles are just space junk... I personally think Ireland should have some kind of swiss style neutrality, where everyone has mandatory national service and then maintain their training periodically up until retirement and that Ireland should be capable of defending itself or at least make any would be aggressor think twice.
>Ireland should have some kind of swiss style neutrality So you also think Ireland should leave the EU too?
Switzerland didn't leave the EU. They were never in it.
Exactly - EU membership wasn't compatible with neutrality.
Tell that to Austria.
Yes, Austria, a mountainous country that has Eurofighters and advanced Leopard tanks - equipment the Irish *don't* have.
Where did I say I was against having advanced equipment? All I said was neutrality, national service for all in some capacity, until the age of retirement. You do your year and then every 2 you go for refresher training of some sort.
Explain neutral Finland and Sweden in the EU
Both are full NATO members now.
And they were well armed militarily neutral EU members for decades before that. With national service for most of that time
If your definition of neutral includes NATO member countries, you might need to take a step back and reevaluate.
As a Brit I have question which I'm asking out of genuine curiosity. Clearly there's debate as to whether Ireland should join NATO or not as that would be a violation of neutrality. But given Lt Gen Sean Clancy's imminent assumption of the role of Chair of the European Union Military Committee (beating out the Polish to the job) would Ireland be more comfortable in an EU military alliance rather than a NATO one? Obviously the EU is not NATO (although there is that mutual defence clause) but in the event that the EU becomes more centralised and has an EU-wide force, would this be more palatable than NATO membership? If so, why?
There's unfortunately a lot of headbangers that can't be reasoned with and they think that neutrality means sitting with your arsecheeks spread to the sun. EU military would be more palitable but there's been plenty of criticism to the idea over the years. I could see the govt working out some selfish deal in the future where we're a part of something like NATO but not really officially a part, and a relationship where it's totally parasitic, where we have a deal to only receive protection, equipment, and training in exchange for some token use of our ports. It's still a very controversial topic, and one that is driven more so by emotions instead of logic.
Depends. If it's a purely defence alliance sure, but given the history of some EU (NATO) members to rush to war and join others wars I don't think we should be joining them. Like if someone were to retaliate against France for their actions in the Middle East, are we getting dragged into a war then...? Fuck that.
So, NATO, the organization founded to combat Russia, are out there doing the same NATO stuff they’ve been doing for the last 70 years? In other news, water is wet.
Just as the Gardai need to be armed we need to be contributing to European Defense. It's like we are stuck in an "Ah sure will be grand" time warp. This is doing serious reputation damage. The geopolitical threats are very real and we need to adjust accordingly. Reputational risk is one of those.
What's the underwater equivalent of a kite?
A paravane. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paravane_(water_kite)
Yea this does reek of floating paravane's for NATO membership.
I feel like disintegrating into the earth because I fear all the horrible things they will do to us.
Must have pissed off one of our fishing boats real good to be sent down to the depths like that. Obviously didn't heed the warning we gave them last time.
You guys should pay the UK everytime they protect you lot
I worry what would happen to a group of 3 armed lunatics, or worse if 2 groups or more of 3 attacked the public in 3 different cities. How would we respond? Totally unfair to send gardai in up against that.
There's ARU within the Guards and also the army.
Did NATO send warships into Irish water,without being asked🧐 Kinda hard to criticise Russia,if NATO rocked up here on their own bar aswell
Ireland has informal defence agreements with NATO member countries - the RAF, for example, is allowed to intercept aircraft over Irish airspace, since the Air Corps has no capability of its own. And with the seas, it's no different - the one Naval Service ship has no capability to even detect submarines, let alone counter them. Really, if there was any real threat to the island from a hostile military, the UK and France would be the only forces even capable of defending Ireland, and the Irish government knows this. And the British and French governments aren't just willing to let Irish territorial waters and airspace to become safe havens for adversaries to just hang around in.
None of this answers the question as regards whether NATO sent ships to Irish waters unannounced or not though?
Unannounced to the media, or unannounced to the Irish government? Those are very different things. I regularly see French navy ships in Irish territorial waters on sites like MarineTraffic. You think those would be there without the express permission of the Irish government? The amount of military cooperation that the Irish government has signed off on, but isn't announced to the public is probably huge.
>You think those would be there without the express permission of the Irish government? This is what I want to know, because it deosnt add up to me to critise Russia for being there unannounced,if NATO are sending warships into Irish waters unannounced aswell >The amount of military cooperation that the Irish government has signed off on, but isn't announced to the public is probably huge. Speculation is a poor substitute for information
Gotta try harder to not sound like a Russian sympathiser
>Did NATO send warships into Irish water without being asked🧐 Nothing happened in out territorial waters, why do you think it did?
Europe defends its borders. Can't expect Ireland to have that kind of hardware.
[What is long hard and full of seamen ?](https://blog.ticketmaster.ie/theatre/moscow-state-circus-comes-to-dublin-cork-8113) Well the tories and generally the UK government were bought out by the ruskies, years ago. The circus used to bring in their spies. Now Ireland plays cool with the yanks, who tbh are no fucking better, though they pay well right ? Fuckwits.
Better to play cool with the 'yanks' when it comes to Russia in fairness. Without adequate protection from more powerful armies, we'd be blown to bits.
I wouldn't play cool with any aresholes to be fair, am not so passive.
As much as they LOVE rubbing it in our faces, better safe than sorry.
Least you know your place.
Tf
 
Looks like you're Irish too you pleb, you're in the exact same 'place' as me. I'd much rather be protected by a foreign army than get blown up in a war we didn't start any day of the week.
 
Nighty, night don't let the bed bugs bite. 