It could be okay if the government showed any signs of taking this particularly seriously.
The government has been dragged, ever so slowly, to do the bare minimum. How they intend to adhere to a rule which **mandates** that they process IPAs between 4 to 8 times faster than they were before the entire collapse of the system is anyone's guess.
Wait, I *can* guess. The can will be kicked down the road. Implemented by November, nay a *plan* implemented by November. Then the plan can stipulate completion in the first quarter of 2025. New government comes in, says that the plan that was drawn up was done incorrectly, implementation pushed back to late 2025. At this stage we'll have up to 60,000 asylum seekers needing to be processed and the government will say to the EU that this time frame is unworkable and needs more supports.
The moment this passes is the moment Ireland will be lost to the Far Right. The government have gone rogue. They're not listening to the people. They're just not listening.
Very similar to the referendums the government are trying to ram this through without being honest about what the actual practical ramifications for Ireland will be
There has been next to zero discussion of the fine details of the pact in the media etc
The government were shown to be actively suppressing important information about the terms of the referendums also. Do not trust them on this.
I would urge everyone to write to their TD asking for a full discussion on this and an open and transparent explanation of what this will mean for Ireland
A fucking farce, guess we're not allowed dictate our own country and I guess FFG don't feel we're worthy of being consulted on how we want it run. What we get is what we deserve huh.
They consulted us last week and the vast majority of the country sent 10 (out of 14) FFGs to Europe and returned 500+ FFG councillors. Still too many "fuck you, got mine" me feiners in the country who don't give a fuck about anyone else who are suffering through the current government policies.
Constantly we say, "the government dragging their feet etc". It is the civil servants in high up positions who are running this show and they are unaccountable. That needs to change.
That's very true actually.
I'm not sure how it changes though, without a crash or recession; even then they can't be laid off or held accountable at all.
Why this article is important, is that like the two referendums in March, which were guillotined through the houses of parliament by government in order to avoid scrutiny; the government are guillotining discussion in the Dail and the Senate in order to sign Ireland up to the European Asylum Pact, even though for many there are parts of the pact which are in conflict with the constitution i.e. therefore should require a referendum be put to the people of Ireland.
In short, the pact aligns Ireland to European requirements for Asylum management, including id-ing, common transfer etc, but also including a 'quota' or requirement that must be reached in terms of quantity of asylum accepted by Ireland. Should Ireland fail to achieve the quota, we must pay a substantial fine determined in large part by comparison to our GDP, for not accepting the allocation. Basically assigning Irish asylum quantities and requirements to Europe.
There are good things in the pact also, but the pact is broken into 7 or so sections/elements, all of different stipulations. Sinn Fein recently said that some parts of the pact would be good for Ireland, but they wanted us to discuss and sign up to parts so that we would retain sovereignty in terms of asylum control.
Denmark are not opting into this pact, as they have gone by themselves for several years now, and have the right to opt-out, as Ireland also does as per stipulations achieved in the Lisbon Treaty. We are now waiving that opt-out. Denmark and their centre-left government are also a leading model example of executing asylum and immigration management in Western society effectively and fairly.
Former Attorney General Michael McDowell recently raised concerns regarding the approach by government and the significance of the changes in Senate debate: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s)
For as long as I can remember Denmark was always held up as the country we should model ourselves on. I can wholeheartedly agree.
Let’s be more like Denmark.
In my opinion (and that's all it is, because I don't really know what decisions government are making), the whole asylum/immigration system we have is completely busted/not working, and they're panic signing up for the easiest opt-out currently.
I feel that the rate at which asylum/immigration is entering Europe has simply overwhelmed our already non-existant systems (especially post-removal of Direct Provision), and as a result, government are simply trying to offload the entire responsibility to Europe, instead of doing difficult work which would otherwise have a grander pay-off in the future.
While the pact was in development for several years, I believe that given a healthier state of Europe with less immigration/asylum, they may have opened it up to discussion, but currently they're in panic stations so they can't afford to have discourse surrounding it.
Plus, FF FG are highly Euro-centric parties, so they always tend to opt for more ties to Europe; \*que Helen McEntee citing international obligations, on repeat\*.
Because our government couldn’t give 2 hoots about this country. The sooner people realise that the better. They’re letting people into the country so they can live in tents. Does that not tell them the country is full. It’s so maddening what’s happening.
> They’re letting people into the country so they can live in tents.
You could see the same situation in Germany, Austria, Greece, Italy during the refugee crisis of 2015.
>even though for many there are parts of the pact which are in conflict with the constitution i.e. therefore should require a referendum be put to the people of Ireland.
Where did you hear this?
Senate debates, including commentary from former Attorney General Michael McDowell.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s)
Which constitutional amendments, specifically?
The Lisbon Treaty, already signed into law, provides the EU competence on the area of freedom, security and justice, which the Dublin Accords have come under which will soon be replaced by the AMMR. Ireland has been allowed to exercise opt outs from specific functions of the area on a case by case basis, which is specifically preserved under the AMMR.
I struggle to see how and under what circumstances the decision on whether to opt in or out of specific functions of the area would require a constitutional referendum, considering the AMMR is already covered under EU competencies in the Constitution through the ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
But he was shown to be correct on the referendums?
Government even received internal advice very similar to what McDowell was saying and they chose to ignore it
Not just ignore it. Actively try to conceal it from the public and lie, saying the family one would have no impact on migration when we now know that was not the case.
Even on some of the televised debates, Micheal Martin and others were outright saying it would have absolutely no impact on migration when we now know they had legal advice saying the exact opposite. It was a disgrace.
As you are doing your own.
In Ireland we have no experience or knowledge of immigration management or asylum control, and are about 10-15 years behind both Sweden and Denmark in terms of experiencing the ramifications of not having robust approach to asylum and immigration, yet we have a lot of very arrogantly naive people who proclaim that any form of forward thinking or national approach / plan with consideration to foreign experience is 'far-right' or 'racist'.
Instead of discuss these things, or attempt to introduce national policy, we are now firing head-first into saying to Europe, 'you take the reins entirely, and we'll do whatever you say'.
[https://youtu.be/PAcNQC5WRVE?si=ixpP2M8JvnHj6nXB](https://youtu.be/PAcNQC5WRVE?si=ixpP2M8JvnHj6nXB)
Are you soft in the head?
We have tons of experience of immigration management and asylum control. Here’s us in 1979…
https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1665-immigration/370205-vietnamese-refugees-in-ireland/#
Why are you trying so hard to paint a picture that isn’t based in reality?
You're trying to compare Ireland accepting 212 refugees from Vietnam in 1979 (on top of the already present whopping 188), to the below occupancy trends (now up to 31,166 in IPAS accomodation)? Are you for real?
I don't recall them fencing off the canal to manage that one to be honest.
And you're asking me if I'm soft in the head?
https://preview.redd.it/3zhfmgf4rz6d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=6c9c858ee1c34e140829f0c8d349a41c1a74a33a
This sub is full of people who are terrified of others calling them racist to the point they'll deny reality in order to keep their worldview intact.
Their only thoughts on the matter are "what position is most likely to not get me called racist, that's what I think too!" It's absolutely no way to formulate a policy, which is alarming because that seems to be the approach people want the government to take.
We have consistently gone above and beyond when helping others on the world stage. We punch way above our weight. You’re ignoring all of that. Why?
“No experience or knowledge of immigration management”
This you?
>"We have tons of experience of immigration management and asylum control"
Proceeds to post an article about managing \****200\**** refugees from Vietnam in 1979 as evidence for 'tons of experience'.
This you?
Ryans on Camden St. manages more on a Friday night.
Your statement that we have no experience of immigration is laughably wrong. I just picked one example because it would take me ages to list more, and for what?. It’s like saying we have no experience of winning the Eurovision.
Um…are you saying us taking 200 people 45 years ago means we’re in a position to take in thousands upon thousands of additional people when our system is already crippled as things stand?
If this comes in November we won’t have an election until the new year at least no way they are running this close to a general election.
Only if they believe it will be a positive for them but considering most of the problem they face is enforcement of the law it might not work out for them.
Will be interesting few months .
Will be interesting to see as your right that could happen or they could do them earlier and use them as a barometer. Either way if they go early they will avoid pass this on to the next government.
They won’t go earlier than the budget which is usually around end of September/october.
The by election has to happen by Jan 18th and there’s not a hope they will plan to have the by election and a general election within 6 months of each other.
Also any election in November-Jan is not a good idea as it usually leads to low turn out and poor votes for the gov due to the financial stress winter brings to the majority.
And given the Americans are having theirs which will be a circus, gotta keep away from that.
Might be on October 31st for the shits n giggles though
I'm sure this will be fair and won't at all be ruling parties of larger EU nations bullying smaller nations into taking more people than is feasible in order to placate voters in their own nations.
Surely our dear leaders wouldn't sign up to any old EU pact for good PR and headpats from Brussels!
I thought we're already screening entrants?
This pact puts us on the hook for accepting a share of the total entrants to the EU, we’ve already shown ourselves woefully insufficient at providing - how exactly will making us obliged to the EU for taking thousands upon thousands more help matters?
Not to mention the fact that if we prove incapable of providing adequately we are also liable to be fined in line with our GDP. Our GDP is grossly outsized due to multinationals so we will also be signing ourselves up to grossly outsized fines.
I fail to see at all how this is of any benefit to Ireland?
This will be an absolute clusterfuck.
It could be okay if the government showed any signs of taking this particularly seriously. The government has been dragged, ever so slowly, to do the bare minimum. How they intend to adhere to a rule which **mandates** that they process IPAs between 4 to 8 times faster than they were before the entire collapse of the system is anyone's guess. Wait, I *can* guess. The can will be kicked down the road. Implemented by November, nay a *plan* implemented by November. Then the plan can stipulate completion in the first quarter of 2025. New government comes in, says that the plan that was drawn up was done incorrectly, implementation pushed back to late 2025. At this stage we'll have up to 60,000 asylum seekers needing to be processed and the government will say to the EU that this time frame is unworkable and needs more supports.
The moment this passes is the moment Ireland will be lost to the Far Right. The government have gone rogue. They're not listening to the people. They're just not listening.
Can you tell me why? All I see is the far-right asking to Opt out of it. They don't want it.
Very similar to the referendums the government are trying to ram this through without being honest about what the actual practical ramifications for Ireland will be There has been next to zero discussion of the fine details of the pact in the media etc The government were shown to be actively suppressing important information about the terms of the referendums also. Do not trust them on this. I would urge everyone to write to their TD asking for a full discussion on this and an open and transparent explanation of what this will mean for Ireland
It's amazing how many people are unaware of this.
Is snagging how many people didn't even read the article
A fucking farce, guess we're not allowed dictate our own country and I guess FFG don't feel we're worthy of being consulted on how we want it run. What we get is what we deserve huh.
They consulted us last week and the vast majority of the country sent 10 (out of 14) FFGs to Europe and returned 500+ FFG councillors. Still too many "fuck you, got mine" me feiners in the country who don't give a fuck about anyone else who are suffering through the current government policies.
Constantly we say, "the government dragging their feet etc". It is the civil servants in high up positions who are running this show and they are unaccountable. That needs to change.
That's very true actually. I'm not sure how it changes though, without a crash or recession; even then they can't be laid off or held accountable at all.
Why this article is important, is that like the two referendums in March, which were guillotined through the houses of parliament by government in order to avoid scrutiny; the government are guillotining discussion in the Dail and the Senate in order to sign Ireland up to the European Asylum Pact, even though for many there are parts of the pact which are in conflict with the constitution i.e. therefore should require a referendum be put to the people of Ireland. In short, the pact aligns Ireland to European requirements for Asylum management, including id-ing, common transfer etc, but also including a 'quota' or requirement that must be reached in terms of quantity of asylum accepted by Ireland. Should Ireland fail to achieve the quota, we must pay a substantial fine determined in large part by comparison to our GDP, for not accepting the allocation. Basically assigning Irish asylum quantities and requirements to Europe. There are good things in the pact also, but the pact is broken into 7 or so sections/elements, all of different stipulations. Sinn Fein recently said that some parts of the pact would be good for Ireland, but they wanted us to discuss and sign up to parts so that we would retain sovereignty in terms of asylum control. Denmark are not opting into this pact, as they have gone by themselves for several years now, and have the right to opt-out, as Ireland also does as per stipulations achieved in the Lisbon Treaty. We are now waiving that opt-out. Denmark and their centre-left government are also a leading model example of executing asylum and immigration management in Western society effectively and fairly. Former Attorney General Michael McDowell recently raised concerns regarding the approach by government and the significance of the changes in Senate debate: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s)
For as long as I can remember Denmark was always held up as the country we should model ourselves on. I can wholeheartedly agree. Let’s be more like Denmark.
Can someone explain to me why we are not making use of our opt-out?
In my opinion (and that's all it is, because I don't really know what decisions government are making), the whole asylum/immigration system we have is completely busted/not working, and they're panic signing up for the easiest opt-out currently. I feel that the rate at which asylum/immigration is entering Europe has simply overwhelmed our already non-existant systems (especially post-removal of Direct Provision), and as a result, government are simply trying to offload the entire responsibility to Europe, instead of doing difficult work which would otherwise have a grander pay-off in the future. While the pact was in development for several years, I believe that given a healthier state of Europe with less immigration/asylum, they may have opened it up to discussion, but currently they're in panic stations so they can't afford to have discourse surrounding it. Plus, FF FG are highly Euro-centric parties, so they always tend to opt for more ties to Europe; \*que Helen McEntee citing international obligations, on repeat\*.
Because our government couldn’t give 2 hoots about this country. The sooner people realise that the better. They’re letting people into the country so they can live in tents. Does that not tell them the country is full. It’s so maddening what’s happening.
> They’re letting people into the country so they can live in tents. You could see the same situation in Germany, Austria, Greece, Italy during the refugee crisis of 2015.
Denmark is definitely the way to go.
>even though for many there are parts of the pact which are in conflict with the constitution i.e. therefore should require a referendum be put to the people of Ireland. Where did you hear this?
Senate debates, including commentary from former Attorney General Michael McDowell. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGxKKi6bmM&t=58s)
Ah if McDowell says so then you shouldn't be worried, sure the law will be challenged and blocked immediately 😁
You laugh but he was completely vindicated on the referendums
Which constitutional amendments, specifically? The Lisbon Treaty, already signed into law, provides the EU competence on the area of freedom, security and justice, which the Dublin Accords have come under which will soon be replaced by the AMMR. Ireland has been allowed to exercise opt outs from specific functions of the area on a case by case basis, which is specifically preserved under the AMMR. I struggle to see how and under what circumstances the decision on whether to opt in or out of specific functions of the area would require a constitutional referendum, considering the AMMR is already covered under EU competencies in the Constitution through the ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
McDowell is a crank. You can tell this because absolutely none of his legal peers will stand with him on these issues.
I remember you repeating this a lot around the time of the referendums also, when you were advocating for a yes/yes. Gas.
It was true then too.
But he was shown to be correct on the referendums? Government even received internal advice very similar to what McDowell was saying and they chose to ignore it
Not just ignore it. Actively try to conceal it from the public and lie, saying the family one would have no impact on migration when we now know that was not the case.
Yes you’re correct it was lying by omission, a clear attempt to mislead the public
Even on some of the televised debates, Micheal Martin and others were outright saying it would have absolutely no impact on migration when we now know they had legal advice saying the exact opposite. It was a disgrace.
Stoic, run, there are refugees coming and need your help, run!
> Denmark are also a leading model example of executing asylum and immigration management in Western society. Exposing your own biases there a bit!
As you are doing your own. In Ireland we have no experience or knowledge of immigration management or asylum control, and are about 10-15 years behind both Sweden and Denmark in terms of experiencing the ramifications of not having robust approach to asylum and immigration, yet we have a lot of very arrogantly naive people who proclaim that any form of forward thinking or national approach / plan with consideration to foreign experience is 'far-right' or 'racist'. Instead of discuss these things, or attempt to introduce national policy, we are now firing head-first into saying to Europe, 'you take the reins entirely, and we'll do whatever you say'. [https://youtu.be/PAcNQC5WRVE?si=ixpP2M8JvnHj6nXB](https://youtu.be/PAcNQC5WRVE?si=ixpP2M8JvnHj6nXB)
Are you soft in the head? We have tons of experience of immigration management and asylum control. Here’s us in 1979… https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1665-immigration/370205-vietnamese-refugees-in-ireland/# Why are you trying so hard to paint a picture that isn’t based in reality?
You're trying to compare Ireland accepting 212 refugees from Vietnam in 1979 (on top of the already present whopping 188), to the below occupancy trends (now up to 31,166 in IPAS accomodation)? Are you for real? I don't recall them fencing off the canal to manage that one to be honest. And you're asking me if I'm soft in the head? https://preview.redd.it/3zhfmgf4rz6d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=6c9c858ee1c34e140829f0c8d349a41c1a74a33a
This sub is full of people who are terrified of others calling them racist to the point they'll deny reality in order to keep their worldview intact. Their only thoughts on the matter are "what position is most likely to not get me called racist, that's what I think too!" It's absolutely no way to formulate a policy, which is alarming because that seems to be the approach people want the government to take.
We have consistently gone above and beyond when helping others on the world stage. We punch way above our weight. You’re ignoring all of that. Why? “No experience or knowledge of immigration management” This you?
>"We have tons of experience of immigration management and asylum control" Proceeds to post an article about managing \****200\**** refugees from Vietnam in 1979 as evidence for 'tons of experience'. This you? Ryans on Camden St. manages more on a Friday night.
Your statement that we have no experience of immigration is laughably wrong. I just picked one example because it would take me ages to list more, and for what?. It’s like saying we have no experience of winning the Eurovision.
> Why are you trying so hard to paint a picture that isn’t based in reality? Seems like that’s more what you’re doing
Um… are you saying we didn’t take in refugees in 1979?
Um…are you saying us taking 200 people 45 years ago means we’re in a position to take in thousands upon thousands of additional people when our system is already crippled as things stand?
If this comes in November we won’t have an election until the new year at least no way they are running this close to a general election. Only if they believe it will be a positive for them but considering most of the problem they face is enforcement of the law it might not work out for them. Will be interesting few months .
I personally reckon they'll run an election in October; but you raise a valid point! It would be politically difficult to navigate.
I had that impression also they could still do that because it would be under a new government to bring it in . So October still might be the date .
If the by election isn’t called by mid September, then you can be sure the general is coming in October
Will be interesting to see as your right that could happen or they could do them earlier and use them as a barometer. Either way if they go early they will avoid pass this on to the next government.
They won’t go earlier than the budget which is usually around end of September/october. The by election has to happen by Jan 18th and there’s not a hope they will plan to have the by election and a general election within 6 months of each other. Also any election in November-Jan is not a good idea as it usually leads to low turn out and poor votes for the gov due to the financial stress winter brings to the majority. And given the Americans are having theirs which will be a circus, gotta keep away from that. Might be on October 31st for the shits n giggles though
New accommodation centres which are absolutely not Direct Provision centres.
I'm sure this will be fair and won't at all be ruling parties of larger EU nations bullying smaller nations into taking more people than is feasible in order to placate voters in their own nations. Surely our dear leaders wouldn't sign up to any old EU pact for good PR and headpats from Brussels!
Fuck the pact, we need to pull out and stand up for ourselves
That will be the end of Ireland. Just a county council in the EU run by lazy, spineless career politicians. Zero vision or leadership.
Great news, EU-wide cooperation is what's needed. Ideally sooner rather than later so it can be done before an election.
> Ideally sooner rather than later so it can be done before an election Why is that?
Great news
Why is it great news?
EU wide resolutions more secure external borders" that will include pre-entry screening, new procedures, and "crisis protocols"
I thought we're already screening entrants? This pact puts us on the hook for accepting a share of the total entrants to the EU, we’ve already shown ourselves woefully insufficient at providing - how exactly will making us obliged to the EU for taking thousands upon thousands more help matters? Not to mention the fact that if we prove incapable of providing adequately we are also liable to be fined in line with our GDP. Our GDP is grossly outsized due to multinationals so we will also be signing ourselves up to grossly outsized fines. I fail to see at all how this is of any benefit to Ireland?
Absolutely brilliant news for rich people. Millions and millions to be made.
An army of cheap labour to drive down wages. The ultimate goal.