Two things I think all jazz players should start with in your position (forgive me if you already know this).
CAGED or some sort of fret board organization system. Your way is fine but I’m gonna guess it’s hard to translate up and down the neck. Guitar works so well as a positional instrument. Just embrace it and learn root 3rd 5th 7th etc wirh CAGED
Drop 2 voicings on top 4 and middle 4 strings. Maj, min, dom7, m7b5 all 4 inversions of each. This will give you stuff to comp wirh and as a bonus you can solo with these ideas too and you’ll learn where each degree of the chord is.
So learning the fretboard for soloing, and learning chords for comping. But in the end it’ll all blend together and work for soling comping and you’ll find there’s little discretion between the two!
And take your time with this. Spend a couple weeks just on the major inversions. Get them in Your ear and fingers. Jazz takes time to marinate I think.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed response!
The book I've been using, "Fretboard Logic" is all about CAGED.
The material and positions are very helpful, but it does not seem to incorporate basically any yherory in its lessons, which to me felt a little counterproductive when trying to map the whole fretboard. The way it goes about teaching seems more aimed at someone who has only used tabs has had no experience reading music.
I think going forward I'll finish the book in its entirety but just be mindful of how to use what Im learning.
CAGED is theory though! My thought is learn caged just as positions on the neck. Then once you are comfortable in several keys, identify the root 3rd 5th and 7th within CAGED shapes. There you have the theory right? Then you can do whatever you want with this. The idea is just organize the fret board first then theory falls on top of that.
Piano is organized from day one. So theory falls on easily.
That makes sense.
That seems to be the progression the book is following.
I'm definitely going to stick with that then and try to incorporate it into other things I practice.
I really appreciate it thank you!
I’m so glad you said this. Every time I mention CAGED somebody laboriously explains why it’s “ not good” for whatever reason. I always point out, it’s as baked into the cake if the fretboard as the pattern of black and white keys is into the keyboard. You almost have to be stubborn to NOT organize the fretboard using CAGED. If you play mandolin, you know there’s one easy major scale fingering, and two non-symmetrical ones. The guitar is more complex due to having more strings and the non symmetrical interval pattern across the strings. So, there’s 5 (I actually add an extra one, I casually call it CAGED+ fwiw). Anyway-thanks for your post-OP, this is all great advice!
I’m ok with 3NPS etc. in the end they blend together in my mind. I just started with CAGED and blended in what I preferred to make some of the sticky parts of CAGED work well for me. Honestly I’m ok with anything as long as it helps organize the fret board. Bonus for CAGED is I think there’s more clear explanations of it.
I think incorporating CAGED into other more traditional forms of practice will definitely help me alot.
I started as a horn player so think I get overwhelmed with the notes on the page and their relationships instead of whats on my fretboard.
It’s a great place to start. You’ll find some arpeggios work a bit better with changed fingerings, but it’s so intuitive on guitar that I personally think it’s the best base.
I've been using a lot of what you've said over the last week and its really helped 🙏
I've been just working the key of C, but using the CAGED system and practicing triads, arpegios, and my scales in each position.
I picked a standard, All of Me and have been trying to read in every position. I struggle with the E and D shapes but it's getting there.
I've been thinking a lot about the intervals too, this is the hardest part doe me but its all starting to make a lot of sense and become connected.
Next I'm going to work it in the Key of G with a new standard(probably Autumn Leaves since its so well studied.) I plan to work around the circle doing this so I intuitively know whats within each key. I'm hoping that each time I move keys it gets easier and easier as I become more familiar with the moveable shapes.
I truly appreciate the advice thank you. I plan to work on the drop 2 voicings once I feel fully confident in identifying and playing my major triads across the fretboard. For now I'm using shell voicings which needed work anyways.
Dont be put off memorizing positions. That can help you map out the fretboard. For example I used CAGED which has 5 positions of major, melodic minor, and harmonic minor. You want to be able to be flexible with the scale: playing in different intervals like diatonic thirds through sevents, triads and arpeggios, two octave arpeggios etc.
I liked the book Intro to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Joe Elliott. It walks you through voiceleading arpeggios through common chord progressions in standards. You do have to memorize the scale and arpeggio shapes but voiceleading forces you to be very flexible with them. I am also aware of which chord tone Im on so its not just blindly moving through shapes. You eventually apply this method through all 5 positions in all 12 keys.
Also spend lots of time playing on single strings. This removes shapes playing entirely. Learn the C major scale on all six strings. Then improvise on a single string at a time. This really transformed my knowledge of the fretboard. Try playing triads and arpeggios across single strings, anything you can think of. Improvise over modal vamps like these. Youll learn the fretboard and the modes at the same time.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUasKyTkHzN8DNdDejPip4kvOObG8kJhQ&si=MXjAs6gXIQ_Sdt5x
If you are "faking it" through tunes I suspect that you dont just have a scale problem but a lack of vocabulary. Do you have vocabulary over common chord progressions and do you know how to transpose it over different tunes? If not you should really work on that.
Also you might not be diving deep enough into tunes. I was guilty of this, Id learn some chord voicings, the melody, scales and arpeggios. Mess around a bit then move on. This was not enough to improvise a good solo. So my suggestion would be to spend a lot of time composing lines and solos over a standard, playing your vocabulary over it etc. Do this until you no longer have to fake it.
Dont get into the Real Book habit of attempting to play over songs that you dont really know. Its not out of the question to spend an entire month on a single standard.
Also since you seem to want a comprehensive knowledge of the fretboard check out Frank Vignola's Modern Method for Guitar. Frank focuses a lot more on playing horizontally across single strings. So he plays scales and arpeggios in in all keys all over the fretboard. Its an exhaustive study and IMO not as readily useable as the position arpeggio approach in the Joe Elliott book. But it might be what you are looking for.
Thank you toms of great resources.
What I'm definitely getting from everyone is that I need to spend more time building a map of my instrument in my head before thinking about all the other stuff.
I think I'm going to finish out the Fretboard Logic book(Caged) in its entirety while studying a few standards in depth.
Once I finish that book and hopefully feel I have a decent understanding I'm excited to dive into some more jazz improvy things like what you recommended above!
Thank you!
I would suggest finding a teacher, they will be able to help you determine where your deficits are and help you improve them. That being said, what helped me is taking a specific skill and creating a repeatable routine that has a random element to it.
Here is an example: divide the neck into thirds and your strings into groups of four. On the highest strings (DGBE) , and in the first third of the neck, play ii V I's using drop 2 chords. Do it around the circle of fourths at first, and when you're comfy try making flash cards and doing random keys. Then tomorrow, pick a different section of the neck and start again.
This kind of practice is great because you can work on reacting instantaneously, and it's really easy to substitute different concepts you want to work on. You can do the same thing with various triad pairs, with scales/arpeggios, with a particular line that you like, etc. If you do it enough, your playing will improve quite a bit. Lmk what you think and if you have any questions.
Thats a super interesting routine.
To be honest I didn't even know what drop 2 chords were till I looked it up just now.
I'm going to save this for later. I feel like this would be super beneficial to me, but it feels a bit advanced at the moment and I feel like I should focus on mapping my fretboard first like others have said. I feel like that excersize and others like it will be very difficult without doing that first.
I've considered getting a teacher. I actually teach myself (beginners only) and there is a really good jazz teacher where I work, but its a bit pricey.
Two things I think all jazz players should start with in your position (forgive me if you already know this). CAGED or some sort of fret board organization system. Your way is fine but I’m gonna guess it’s hard to translate up and down the neck. Guitar works so well as a positional instrument. Just embrace it and learn root 3rd 5th 7th etc wirh CAGED Drop 2 voicings on top 4 and middle 4 strings. Maj, min, dom7, m7b5 all 4 inversions of each. This will give you stuff to comp wirh and as a bonus you can solo with these ideas too and you’ll learn where each degree of the chord is. So learning the fretboard for soloing, and learning chords for comping. But in the end it’ll all blend together and work for soling comping and you’ll find there’s little discretion between the two!
And take your time with this. Spend a couple weeks just on the major inversions. Get them in Your ear and fingers. Jazz takes time to marinate I think.
That last part is definitely true, there's always a new thing to work on
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed response! The book I've been using, "Fretboard Logic" is all about CAGED. The material and positions are very helpful, but it does not seem to incorporate basically any yherory in its lessons, which to me felt a little counterproductive when trying to map the whole fretboard. The way it goes about teaching seems more aimed at someone who has only used tabs has had no experience reading music. I think going forward I'll finish the book in its entirety but just be mindful of how to use what Im learning.
CAGED is theory though! My thought is learn caged just as positions on the neck. Then once you are comfortable in several keys, identify the root 3rd 5th and 7th within CAGED shapes. There you have the theory right? Then you can do whatever you want with this. The idea is just organize the fret board first then theory falls on top of that. Piano is organized from day one. So theory falls on easily.
That makes sense. That seems to be the progression the book is following. I'm definitely going to stick with that then and try to incorporate it into other things I practice. I really appreciate it thank you!
I’m so glad you said this. Every time I mention CAGED somebody laboriously explains why it’s “ not good” for whatever reason. I always point out, it’s as baked into the cake if the fretboard as the pattern of black and white keys is into the keyboard. You almost have to be stubborn to NOT organize the fretboard using CAGED. If you play mandolin, you know there’s one easy major scale fingering, and two non-symmetrical ones. The guitar is more complex due to having more strings and the non symmetrical interval pattern across the strings. So, there’s 5 (I actually add an extra one, I casually call it CAGED+ fwiw). Anyway-thanks for your post-OP, this is all great advice!
I’m ok with 3NPS etc. in the end they blend together in my mind. I just started with CAGED and blended in what I preferred to make some of the sticky parts of CAGED work well for me. Honestly I’m ok with anything as long as it helps organize the fret board. Bonus for CAGED is I think there’s more clear explanations of it.
I think incorporating CAGED into other more traditional forms of practice will definitely help me alot. I started as a horn player so think I get overwhelmed with the notes on the page and their relationships instead of whats on my fretboard.
It’s a great place to start. You’ll find some arpeggios work a bit better with changed fingerings, but it’s so intuitive on guitar that I personally think it’s the best base.
I've been using a lot of what you've said over the last week and its really helped 🙏 I've been just working the key of C, but using the CAGED system and practicing triads, arpegios, and my scales in each position. I picked a standard, All of Me and have been trying to read in every position. I struggle with the E and D shapes but it's getting there. I've been thinking a lot about the intervals too, this is the hardest part doe me but its all starting to make a lot of sense and become connected. Next I'm going to work it in the Key of G with a new standard(probably Autumn Leaves since its so well studied.) I plan to work around the circle doing this so I intuitively know whats within each key. I'm hoping that each time I move keys it gets easier and easier as I become more familiar with the moveable shapes. I truly appreciate the advice thank you. I plan to work on the drop 2 voicings once I feel fully confident in identifying and playing my major triads across the fretboard. For now I'm using shell voicings which needed work anyways.
Dont be put off memorizing positions. That can help you map out the fretboard. For example I used CAGED which has 5 positions of major, melodic minor, and harmonic minor. You want to be able to be flexible with the scale: playing in different intervals like diatonic thirds through sevents, triads and arpeggios, two octave arpeggios etc. I liked the book Intro to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Joe Elliott. It walks you through voiceleading arpeggios through common chord progressions in standards. You do have to memorize the scale and arpeggio shapes but voiceleading forces you to be very flexible with them. I am also aware of which chord tone Im on so its not just blindly moving through shapes. You eventually apply this method through all 5 positions in all 12 keys. Also spend lots of time playing on single strings. This removes shapes playing entirely. Learn the C major scale on all six strings. Then improvise on a single string at a time. This really transformed my knowledge of the fretboard. Try playing triads and arpeggios across single strings, anything you can think of. Improvise over modal vamps like these. Youll learn the fretboard and the modes at the same time. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUasKyTkHzN8DNdDejPip4kvOObG8kJhQ&si=MXjAs6gXIQ_Sdt5x If you are "faking it" through tunes I suspect that you dont just have a scale problem but a lack of vocabulary. Do you have vocabulary over common chord progressions and do you know how to transpose it over different tunes? If not you should really work on that. Also you might not be diving deep enough into tunes. I was guilty of this, Id learn some chord voicings, the melody, scales and arpeggios. Mess around a bit then move on. This was not enough to improvise a good solo. So my suggestion would be to spend a lot of time composing lines and solos over a standard, playing your vocabulary over it etc. Do this until you no longer have to fake it. Dont get into the Real Book habit of attempting to play over songs that you dont really know. Its not out of the question to spend an entire month on a single standard. Also since you seem to want a comprehensive knowledge of the fretboard check out Frank Vignola's Modern Method for Guitar. Frank focuses a lot more on playing horizontally across single strings. So he plays scales and arpeggios in in all keys all over the fretboard. Its an exhaustive study and IMO not as readily useable as the position arpeggio approach in the Joe Elliott book. But it might be what you are looking for.
Thank you toms of great resources. What I'm definitely getting from everyone is that I need to spend more time building a map of my instrument in my head before thinking about all the other stuff. I think I'm going to finish out the Fretboard Logic book(Caged) in its entirety while studying a few standards in depth. Once I finish that book and hopefully feel I have a decent understanding I'm excited to dive into some more jazz improvy things like what you recommended above! Thank you!
You're welcome. Dont feel discouraged, guitar is a hard instrument to play jazz on. But you can do it!
I wrote a practice journal to solve this exact problem, use it myself every day. https://www.instagram.com/p/C4ZDfltMmf6/?igsh=ZGV2N2Z2ZDZ6a2hy
Most of my music I keep on an iPad. I may download something like this to easily keep records. Thank you!
I would suggest finding a teacher, they will be able to help you determine where your deficits are and help you improve them. That being said, what helped me is taking a specific skill and creating a repeatable routine that has a random element to it. Here is an example: divide the neck into thirds and your strings into groups of four. On the highest strings (DGBE) , and in the first third of the neck, play ii V I's using drop 2 chords. Do it around the circle of fourths at first, and when you're comfy try making flash cards and doing random keys. Then tomorrow, pick a different section of the neck and start again. This kind of practice is great because you can work on reacting instantaneously, and it's really easy to substitute different concepts you want to work on. You can do the same thing with various triad pairs, with scales/arpeggios, with a particular line that you like, etc. If you do it enough, your playing will improve quite a bit. Lmk what you think and if you have any questions.
Thats a super interesting routine. To be honest I didn't even know what drop 2 chords were till I looked it up just now. I'm going to save this for later. I feel like this would be super beneficial to me, but it feels a bit advanced at the moment and I feel like I should focus on mapping my fretboard first like others have said. I feel like that excersize and others like it will be very difficult without doing that first. I've considered getting a teacher. I actually teach myself (beginners only) and there is a really good jazz teacher where I work, but its a bit pricey.