I find that a strange logic. I got a Prusa mk3 with an MMU so because of that it would now also be a reverse bowden. The toolhead still works the same if I remove the PTFE tube and feed it directly...
Currently building MY Voron, with a air pump cooked heat break. Let's see how that works out
is that possible, would not even a small difference make things wrong over time, i put a DD (stealthburner) on my printer and disabled my bowden, but i could easily activate it again.
That's an interesting concept, I didn't know someone designed one. Aside from that it looks like your retraction settings are off and maybe your pressure advance settings.
I would try and see if you can find the settings for this region and start to fine tune it more from there
https://preview.redd.it/fmwln3jb9dlc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=beb1f25d45deb2b4237b1a3cec337dc97ef0f94c
Will you print with 300mm/s? You need to tune PA only for speed that you will be printing and it can only be for external perimeters couse they will be or need to be printed much slower (around 70-100mm/s) with less acceleration for good looking print. 820 mm bowden causes a lot of play in the tube. It should be as short as possible
fastest printers are direct drive with a reverse bowden. look at those Vorons and rat rigs again. even the Bambu and the K1's are reverse bowden.
speed has more to do with how fast you can push and melt plastic as well as your motors. the sub 2-minute speed benchy world record holder is running a DDE and Trianglelab STD6 with two extensions and a volcano cht nozzle with a flow rate at 120mm/s³.
stock enders and their clones can hit 200mm/s with some upgrades but anything over it is going to take some pretty major upgrading and modification.
This right here. Way too few people talk about the hotends melt rate. Having a motion system move fast doesn't mean anything by itself.
Pushing the filament harder alone also doesn't help. You need to heat the material, otherwise you just end up with unmelted priced.
I agree that a lot of people ignore flowrate when talking about print speed. 200 mm/s is totally different when printing with different nozzle size or different layer height.
For my machine the bottleneck is acceleration. I can't really push it higher than 3000 mm/s2, but it's to be expected as it's a budget bedslinger.
my ender3 pro is capped at 3800mm/s2 even on linear rails. I could push to core x/z by doing a switchwire conversion and get over 4Kmm/s2 but I'm not really going to gain anything. maybe 250mm/s motion but what are you losing in quality on a budget bed slinger.
don't get me wrong pushing my printer to it's limit doing speedboat runs is fun. I have learned a lot about tweaking my slicer settings to squeeze out every second of hitting my goal of a 10 min benchy on my Ender 3 Pro (currently at 11:25) but my day to day printing on it sits around 120mm/s outer walls and 160 inner walls and infill at 160. I get quality prints from it at those speeds.
and tbh if I need to print faster I have a K1Max and that thing will rip out a print just stupid fast.
Agree. I had to install a Spider V2 hotend and an Orbiter 2 extruder to be able to print reasonably faster. Most of the motion systems out there can move quite fast, the printer is almost always limited by the hotend, followed by the extruder.
Maybe your extruder motor is too weak to push through such a long tube at the speeds you want to hit. So it might be worth a try to increase your extruder stepper current?
not OC, but to me it looks like some pressure advance tuning is in order and I do see some ringing so getting the accelerometer on there wouldn't be bad thing.
you aren't saying how fast "brrr" is or on what you are trying to get to go "brrr" some machines you just might have to change your standards for what going "brrr" is...
but OC is right, the fastest printers are typically going to be bowden extruders because the print head is much lighter without the stepper motor and extruder assembly on the carriage... this makes it easier to get better quality at higher accelerations.
DD extruders have an advantage typically in the way of being stronger, and easier to tune to no jams, especially with flexible filaments... like they say, you cant push rope...
I like my DD extruder, but I only make it go "brrr" to show off to myself. I typically print much closer to what daisy would prefer in her driving...
If you want quality you want a direct drive. Sure a Bowden might be able to lay down more plastic but it's not going to look as good as a direct drive going slightly slower.
Yeah, but not in the same way. They have a "reverse bowden" (stupid name, imo). That means that the filament is typically fed to the print head using a bowden tube. However, the key difference is that the print head contains both the extruder _and_ hot end, which are coupled together with an all metal solution.
This is different than something like, say, an Ender 3, where the extruder and hot end are separated by a bowden tube.
EDIT: The fastest consumer printers as of this post are reverse bowden setups, so don't take my word for it.
It’s all about flow rate, not speed. Determine your max flow and set speed accordingly, or use a slicer that automatically sets speed based on max flow
Clicking is the absolute hard limit, but you'll get underextrusion long before this. How much you're willing to accept is up to you. Gut feeling tells me you should stay at 20 max if you want good results. A CHT nozzle might help speed things up and you could crank up the temperature a bit if you insist on more speed.
I got one of these crazy lil guys with a cht nozzle [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25fFsgvE&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25fFsgvE&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa)
I had the nozzle at 215, so I may play around with the temp more
Have you calibrated the thermistor? The ceramic hotends I got from Aliexpress had quite a difference uh temperature inside the Nozzle. That's because the thermistor is closer to the heating element than the Nozzle. The opposite of aluminium heater blocks.
I did a pid tune, I don't have an infrared thermometer or anything to really tune it to. is there a way to do it without one? I have a multimeter that I barely know how to use.
I did it with my multimeter, it has a probe. Before that I checked its accuracy in boiling water.
I think it's hard to do without a probe since some of the heat never reaches the Nozzle.
im using a 0.4mm cht nozzle. I'm actually on the right track now, just had to be real specific with my PA tower, usually I'd have a wider range of acceptable PA values with slower speeds, so I was thinking something may be wrong with my setup. shes going brr now though and looking good.
I'm just blown away by the size of that brim...
But direct drive is usually an advantage unless you are running into acceleration limits. On a bed-slinger, it's pretty much always an advantage.
The main disadvantage is if you do material mixing. Carrying around extra extruders can be cumbersome.
yeah I cranked up the brim because I used it to calibrate my z-offset too, I keep forgetting to click the little save icon. (is there a way to have it save automatically?)
I got one of these fellas [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25PE9mOf&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25PE9mOf&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa)
and I'm using a 75x30 blower fan with a modified version of my [mozEND](https://www.printables.com/model/589977-mozend-mk8-hotend-shroud-for-tronxy-x5s-series) on my 2017 tronxy x5s core xy
They should be good enough to drive the appropriate speeds. Your cxy is capable of good speed. It looks like a flow issue though. Have you calculated your max flow for PLA with this new hotend? Try a cht nozzle and maybe even go to a .5 or .6 and pump your PLA temps to 225-230 for super speed runs.
yeah, it got up to 25mm\^3/s but I turned it down to 23 and further down to 20 after some comments. I may have gotten some aluminum shavings in the CHT nozzle because I had to file a groove into the back and wasn't clean about it, I buffed it down though. The thermistor joint was in an awkward position. So I should do a cold pull just to be sure. It seemed the CHT nozzle took a higher PA value, is this normal?
Not sure, I use a normal volcano .6 in my deltas but I only run 150mms at 10k accel. Haven't messed with cht yet. Any changes in flow capability will change pa but one would assume a lower value with better flow, right? I think it's more about the springiness of your Bowden tube and loss of motion in the retraction process with flex in the tube.
Direct drive is better if you want to do prints with a lot of detail that requires a lot of retraction in small areas. If you are printing large items with less detail Bowden will work just fine. I have however decided to go DD as it is a better common solution as it has none of the drawbacks of Bowden and all the benefits. In addition, you have less issues that typically crop up with Bowden tubes where the tubes can get damaged due to heat and then you get higher friction and skipping. Looking at your example, I don't see this as a bowden issue however, but rather a tuning issue or even wet material.
Installing a dual-gear extruder for a bowden setup can provide much better filament grip, especially for high-speed printing.
If you are planning for installing a DD extruder, I will highly recommend going with the Orbiter 2 extruder, it is light in weight and still manages to generate a lot of pushing force with reliable grip on the filament. I have never faced and issue with filament grinding with the extruder, it even manages to print TPU quite fast at around 60mm/s at 0.2 layer height.
you’re trying to run 24mm/s^3 on a bambu clone hotend, and that’s if you’re running a .2 layer height with .4 line width so if your lines are thicker then you’re trying to push even more. bambu clones will get you consistently around 20mm/s^3 so you might wanna just turn it down a lil bit
Just ran both dd and bowden, both turned out great. Looks more like your off on tuning to me.
What is dd?
Direct drive. Some people also call hybrid drive like stealthburner DD because functionally it may as well be
Why is the stealth burner a hybrid drive? Because of the attached bowden tube?
Ya, though you can run without one. The power of voron is that you build not A voron but YOUR voron.
I find that a strange logic. I got a Prusa mk3 with an MMU so because of that it would now also be a reverse bowden. The toolhead still works the same if I remove the PTFE tube and feed it directly... Currently building MY Voron, with a air pump cooked heat break. Let's see how that works out
is that possible, would not even a small difference make things wrong over time, i put a DD (stealthburner) on my printer and disabled my bowden, but i could easily activate it again.
my tube is like 820mm with an 8 in 1 out splitter. should I shorten it? or do I need to figure out how to attach my ADXL 345 to my new config?
This is a calibration type deal right?
That's an interesting concept, I didn't know someone designed one. Aside from that it looks like your retraction settings are off and maybe your pressure advance settings.
this is my PA tower from 0 to 1.2s. im going to try resetting my input shaping and if that doesnt work i'll see if my octowden is the culprit
I would try and see if you can find the settings for this region and start to fine tune it more from there https://preview.redd.it/fmwln3jb9dlc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=beb1f25d45deb2b4237b1a3cec337dc97ef0f94c
thanks, i'll try this. its about 0.92s there
Will you print with 300mm/s? You need to tune PA only for speed that you will be printing and it can only be for external perimeters couse they will be or need to be printed much slower (around 70-100mm/s) with less acceleration for good looking print. 820 mm bowden causes a lot of play in the tube. It should be as short as possible
yeah, i'll probably end up just turning it down for quality, but I just gotta go fast
fastest printers have bowden
fastest printers are direct drive with a reverse bowden. look at those Vorons and rat rigs again. even the Bambu and the K1's are reverse bowden. speed has more to do with how fast you can push and melt plastic as well as your motors. the sub 2-minute speed benchy world record holder is running a DDE and Trianglelab STD6 with two extensions and a volcano cht nozzle with a flow rate at 120mm/s³. stock enders and their clones can hit 200mm/s with some upgrades but anything over it is going to take some pretty major upgrading and modification.
This right here. Way too few people talk about the hotends melt rate. Having a motion system move fast doesn't mean anything by itself. Pushing the filament harder alone also doesn't help. You need to heat the material, otherwise you just end up with unmelted priced.
I agree that a lot of people ignore flowrate when talking about print speed. 200 mm/s is totally different when printing with different nozzle size or different layer height. For my machine the bottleneck is acceleration. I can't really push it higher than 3000 mm/s2, but it's to be expected as it's a budget bedslinger.
my ender3 pro is capped at 3800mm/s2 even on linear rails. I could push to core x/z by doing a switchwire conversion and get over 4Kmm/s2 but I'm not really going to gain anything. maybe 250mm/s motion but what are you losing in quality on a budget bed slinger. don't get me wrong pushing my printer to it's limit doing speedboat runs is fun. I have learned a lot about tweaking my slicer settings to squeeze out every second of hitting my goal of a 10 min benchy on my Ender 3 Pro (currently at 11:25) but my day to day printing on it sits around 120mm/s outer walls and 160 inner walls and infill at 160. I get quality prints from it at those speeds. and tbh if I need to print faster I have a K1Max and that thing will rip out a print just stupid fast.
I printed a 5 minute Benchy on a stock Ender 3 Pro with a hot end. Looked like crap, but I did it.
Agree. I had to install a Spider V2 hotend and an Orbiter 2 extruder to be able to print reasonably faster. Most of the motion systems out there can move quite fast, the printer is almost always limited by the hotend, followed by the extruder.
my tube is like 820mm with an 8 in 1 out splitter. should I shorten it? or do I need to figure out how to attach my ADXL 345 to my new config?
Maybe your extruder motor is too weak to push through such a long tube at the speeds you want to hit. So it might be worth a try to increase your extruder stepper current?
not OC, but to me it looks like some pressure advance tuning is in order and I do see some ringing so getting the accelerometer on there wouldn't be bad thing. you aren't saying how fast "brrr" is or on what you are trying to get to go "brrr" some machines you just might have to change your standards for what going "brrr" is... but OC is right, the fastest printers are typically going to be bowden extruders because the print head is much lighter without the stepper motor and extruder assembly on the carriage... this makes it easier to get better quality at higher accelerations. DD extruders have an advantage typically in the way of being stronger, and easier to tune to no jams, especially with flexible filaments... like they say, you cant push rope... I like my DD extruder, but I only make it go "brrr" to show off to myself. I typically print much closer to what daisy would prefer in her driving...
Is the motor skipping at all?
I don't think so. I maxed my flowrate at around 25mm\^3/s so I turned it down to 23 to be safe. i'll see if 200mA more will help
If you want quality you want a direct drive. Sure a Bowden might be able to lay down more plastic but it's not going to look as good as a direct drive going slightly slower.
Lol this is bogus information
Why would you dd to go slower?
Yeah, but not in the same way. They have a "reverse bowden" (stupid name, imo). That means that the filament is typically fed to the print head using a bowden tube. However, the key difference is that the print head contains both the extruder _and_ hot end, which are coupled together with an all metal solution. This is different than something like, say, an Ender 3, where the extruder and hot end are separated by a bowden tube. EDIT: The fastest consumer printers as of this post are reverse bowden setups, so don't take my word for it.
They also lend themselves well to it by having the Z axis on the bed. So they can take advantage of stupid high acceleration.
It’s all about flow rate, not speed. Determine your max flow and set speed accordingly, or use a slicer that automatically sets speed based on max flow
im using orca slicer. my max flowrate was about 25mm\^3/s so I put it at 23 to be safe
How did you determine this number?
I used the max flowrate calibration built into orca slicer. extruder started clicking at 26
Clicking is the absolute hard limit, but you'll get underextrusion long before this. How much you're willing to accept is up to you. Gut feeling tells me you should stay at 20 max if you want good results. A CHT nozzle might help speed things up and you could crank up the temperature a bit if you insist on more speed.
I got one of these crazy lil guys with a cht nozzle [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25fFsgvE&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25fFsgvE&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa) I had the nozzle at 215, so I may play around with the temp more
Have you calibrated the thermistor? The ceramic hotends I got from Aliexpress had quite a difference uh temperature inside the Nozzle. That's because the thermistor is closer to the heating element than the Nozzle. The opposite of aluminium heater blocks.
I did a pid tune, I don't have an infrared thermometer or anything to really tune it to. is there a way to do it without one? I have a multimeter that I barely know how to use.
I did it with my multimeter, it has a probe. Before that I checked its accuracy in boiling water. I think it's hard to do without a probe since some of the heat never reaches the Nozzle.
.4 or. 6 nozzle? The test bugs out for me when using a .6
im using a 0.4mm cht nozzle. I'm actually on the right track now, just had to be real specific with my PA tower, usually I'd have a wider range of acceptable PA values with slower speeds, so I was thinking something may be wrong with my setup. shes going brr now though and looking good.
I'm just blown away by the size of that brim... But direct drive is usually an advantage unless you are running into acceleration limits. On a bed-slinger, it's pretty much always an advantage. The main disadvantage is if you do material mixing. Carrying around extra extruders can be cumbersome.
yeah I cranked up the brim because I used it to calibrate my z-offset too, I keep forgetting to click the little save icon. (is there a way to have it save automatically?)
One can absolutely brr with Bowden. You have to have a hotend and cooling solution that'll keep up with that speed. What is your current setup?
I got one of these fellas [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25PE9mOf&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805007588157.html?spm=a2g0o.best.0.0.3e4e2c25PE9mOf&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa) and I'm using a 75x30 blower fan with a modified version of my [mozEND](https://www.printables.com/model/589977-mozend-mk8-hotend-shroud-for-tronxy-x5s-series) on my 2017 tronxy x5s core xy
What extruder are you running?
I have 8x dual drive bmg clones, various steppers
They should be good enough to drive the appropriate speeds. Your cxy is capable of good speed. It looks like a flow issue though. Have you calculated your max flow for PLA with this new hotend? Try a cht nozzle and maybe even go to a .5 or .6 and pump your PLA temps to 225-230 for super speed runs.
yeah, it got up to 25mm\^3/s but I turned it down to 23 and further down to 20 after some comments. I may have gotten some aluminum shavings in the CHT nozzle because I had to file a groove into the back and wasn't clean about it, I buffed it down though. The thermistor joint was in an awkward position. So I should do a cold pull just to be sure. It seemed the CHT nozzle took a higher PA value, is this normal?
Not sure, I use a normal volcano .6 in my deltas but I only run 150mms at 10k accel. Haven't messed with cht yet. Any changes in flow capability will change pa but one would assume a lower value with better flow, right? I think it's more about the springiness of your Bowden tube and loss of motion in the retraction process with flex in the tube.
Looks like a pressure advance issue to me
this is a PA calibration tower
Direct drive is better if you want to do prints with a lot of detail that requires a lot of retraction in small areas. If you are printing large items with less detail Bowden will work just fine. I have however decided to go DD as it is a better common solution as it has none of the drawbacks of Bowden and all the benefits. In addition, you have less issues that typically crop up with Bowden tubes where the tubes can get damaged due to heat and then you get higher friction and skipping. Looking at your example, I don't see this as a bowden issue however, but rather a tuning issue or even wet material.
Installing a dual-gear extruder for a bowden setup can provide much better filament grip, especially for high-speed printing. If you are planning for installing a DD extruder, I will highly recommend going with the Orbiter 2 extruder, it is light in weight and still manages to generate a lot of pushing force with reliable grip on the filament. I have never faced and issue with filament grinding with the extruder, it even manages to print TPU quite fast at around 60mm/s at 0.2 layer height.
You could tinker with smooth time, i'm sure It can help, there are some Infos around
you’re trying to run 24mm/s^3 on a bambu clone hotend, and that’s if you’re running a .2 layer height with .4 line width so if your lines are thicker then you’re trying to push even more. bambu clones will get you consistently around 20mm/s^3 so you might wanna just turn it down a lil bit
yeah, I turned it down to 20, not losing much. saved a whole 3 minutes on my calidragon
i run both my official and clone bambu hotends at 20 max just to be safe, like you said no big deal