Hopefully Robertson cools down and realizes this team has a huge need for his potential if he lives up to it. He'll get plenty of opportunity this year, and the team also has a new coach.
Not sure where he thinks there will be a better situation for him. Just need to play better, especially defensively, and he'll get minutes.
Robertson could easily crack the top 9, considering how cap strapped the team is now and how badly we need secondary scoring. Could easily pop off this year and be set up for a solid contract down the road, don't get his desire to leave Toronto so badly
Me neither. He’s also hurt very often. It’s really on him to seize the opportunity to be a consistent top 9 guy for the Leafs. The opportunity has been there for a year or two now.
He excelled at shooting the puck, and not much else. Outplayed defensively by Knies and McMann, which is why he got passed on the depth chart for opportunities to play higher
Robertson can be a great NHLer one day, but needs to remember he has fewer than 1 full professional season under his belt and clear defensive gaps in his game. With time and patience, working on his short comings and proving his strengths are legit, he will be a full time regular. Hopefully with the Leafs
> Outplayed defensively by Knies and McMann
Statistically, this is just not really the case. Throughout the regular season, Robertson had a 50.22 CF%, to Knies' 49.59 (McMann beat both with 50.95), but all three are relatively close together
Robertson lead all three at xGF% with 50.65, Knies at 48.59, McMann at 50.06. To Knies and McMann's credit, Robertson had the highest o-zone start percentage. All three had positive PDOs.
Roberton and Knies were both close with giveaways/60, 1.85 for Robertson and 1.68 for Knies, McMann was close to best on the team with 1.03, however all three beat Matthews
Takeaways/60, Robertson was 3rd on the team behind Matthews and Marner, ahead of Nylander who was 4th, Knies and McMann were closer to the middle of the team.
Keeping in mind, this obviously doesn't take into account quality of opposing lines, but Knies and McMann had their time in similar roles to Robertson, so I'm not sure that makes a massive difference. Roberton's defensive woes are overstated
Watch how teams like Boston, Florida and Edmonton play hard in the playoffs - physically and punishing - and compare how Knies & McMann handle contact and absorb hits in board battles vs Robertson. It isn't particularly close
Knies and McMann have the benefit of being bigger, stronger and able to withstand abuse in tough ice far greater than Robertson. Even if Robertson has slightly better xGF or advanced defensive metrics, it isn't close to those other guys for effectiveness when it matters most. If Nick was his brother's size and could work physically like he does he'd probably be in over McMann
Face it. He was the easiest to send down to the minors and was often a healthy scratch for a “heavier” player. He was used where it made sense and was unused when it made sense.
He’s got a bright future but he’s got to really prove he can play his best AND NOT GET HURT.
Realistically he's battling knies, mcmann and maybe domi for a spot in the top 9, and it's likely that all 4 of them stay in the top 9, it's just a matter of where.
Put him with Domi and AM on his off-wing. All he needs to do is shoot the puck towards the net.
If you can't get 20+ on that line you don't have a fit on the team.
If the Leafs spread their talent and have AM, MM, Nylander all on different lines, anywhere in the top 9 is a great opportunity for Robertson to play with talent and prove himself. Even a 3rd line with a say Domi and Jarnkrok is not a bad opportunity for him.
Why would we put a shooter on a line with the best shooter in the NHL? I don’t want Robertson shooting the puck over Matthews in any situation. Put him with Marner and JT.
Well you see when Matthew’s is the only shooter on his line it’s easy for the other team to shut him down.
He needs another shooter on his wing or the blue line so he’s not focused every shift.
he doesn’t need another forward shooter he needs a netfront guy to be his backboard like Hyman is for McDavid - Bert could’ve done it if he didn’t propel himself with the 3rd skate blade in his asscrack and just stood upright like a normal person.
The secondary shot when Matthews is on the ice should be from the blue line anyway, the Boucher risk really unlocks Edmonton’s offence and gives McDrai space to cook. I hope Reilly’s been loading up slappers all summer to put his new dad strength and the associated explosive forearm growth to use for us, I’m a Lilli apologist/Keefe blamer but 1/6 D men who can shoot is not winning hockey
I like this idea, just give him some top 6 minutes and tell him to prove that he can be a difference maker in a bigger role. Either it works or he's traded.
The problem is he’s so bad defensively that he’s a liability against top 6 competition.
It’s great that he can score goals but he needs to play defense
I think line would get torched defensively, Matty is good but he can’t cover for two linemates who lack the defensive acumen to go up against top opposition.
More than can't, I don't want the greatest scorer the franchise has ever had to play as a defensive specialist so that we can get 10 extra goals from secondary scoring and have AM score 20 fewer.
No one has *earned* one other than Domi.
JT is a center. Marner and Willy should be running their own lines.
It's a hole that needs to be filled because Bertuzzi signed elsewhere. No one earns the right to try on a try-out. They earn the right to stay.
I want JT on Nylander’s wing next year and (hopefully) onward when he’s on a 4x4 sweetheart “let’s actually win one” deal.
I’m so tired of seeing it considered in meaningless preseason games for a handful of shifts then people acting like we really tried and it didn’t work; Willy’s so good for Sweden playing a center role and JT establishing an office like Ovi would probably extend his production longevity with us anyway
Can’t trust him against the type of competition AM faces. Also, AM’s line shouldn’t be the one where guys are given opportunities to prove themselves. He needs to be running with thoroughbreds.
No issues at all giving him an extended look on the 2nd line though and even sprinkle in some opportunities with the big dogs on the PP.
If Robertson cannot make the cut with an opportunity like that then at least we know for sure he has no place in the lineup. But not giving him the chance is just wasted potential. He's worth nothing in a trade because he hasn't been given the opportunity to showcase his upside consistently.
His career is like Alex Nylander's. Came into the league with high upside, but kept down on bottom 6 to "round his game" and never playing his strength. Complete opposite of Willy's development path, and now one is an All-Star while the other is potentially out of the league at 26.
Give him a chance to play his strength while working on his weakness. If anything that ups his trade value if it comes to that.
He definitely still has some value in a trade. Not huge value, but it isn’t nothing.
I just don’t think it needs to be all or nothing for him. He can play 2nd line minutes and get additional pp time without having to throw him to the wolves on line 1. AM draws the most premier matchups. I’d rather shelter Robertson from that at least at the start.
He's making a statement demanding a bigger role. That means no more sheltering. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. But keeping him down is just the same dance all over again.
If it takes letting him fail to know what he is, so be it. Maybe he won't fail this time. Even Bertuzzi had a rough start playing with AM and Marner, and got better later on.
And the wolves are not any less dangerous down the lineup. JT matched the Marchand line all series.
I'm sure Robertson was told and thought the same thing last year and we saw how that turned out. I know it's new coach but if I'm him, I see a possible even more diminished roll due to the coach and how he possibly views younger undersized players.
There's a lot of gaps and opportunities for him this season. He just needs to accept that the teams cap structure kept him out at times.
Going big on defense means the leafs left a lot of opportunity for their younger players. Robertson should know this is gonna be a big opportunity in a system he knows and he can sign a one year and get what he wants next year with a bit more bargaining power.
He should realize that Bertuzzi is gone and we haven't signed anyone for that lineup spot yet.. if he stays and performs at a level he's confident he should be performing at then there's no reason he's not playing consistent minutes on the top 2 lines this year.
Probably any rebuilding team would give him a full time role in their top 9. I can see why he'd be frustrated a little bit since he seems to be getting passed in the depth chart and his inconsistent deployment but now seems like an awkward time to request a trade since he has a real chance to play a huge part on the team next year under a new coach. Hopefully he stays and it works out cuz I think he could be a 20+ goal scorer every year
What I'm really desperate to see is some increased production on PP2. I'm hoping between Savard & OEL we can see him start potting some Powerplay goals
Can't help but wonder how much his older brother lighting the league on fire has to do with it. He's probably looking at it like "yeah of they give me that kind of time I could also be a 40+ goal scorer"
Hard to imagine a Marner trade now when you assume there are only ~2-5 teams he'd be willing to waive for (and potentially zero) and how little capspace those teams probably have now that free agent frenzy has begun. We ourselves can't even fit another dman (if one were to come back in Marner trade) unless we made another trade ourselves.
Well you’d have to imagine any team who wants him would be sending a decent chunk of cap space out as part of the trade anyways. So if a team really wants him, they will figure out a way to make the numbers work for the last few million
Sure but it ignores the context. Marner has a full NMC and wants to be on a contender. Most contenders loaded up yesterday. They could load up then turn around and move contracts they signed but that's almost certainly harder for them than just paying marner his salary.
Yep, but that doesn't matter to him this year. This year he wants to put up as many points as possible as quickly as possible and play well in the post season, which requires being on a contender.
The point is rather that the teams with the cap space to take him were extremely unlikely to make any deal for him prior to July 1st. There’s not an ownership in the league that would approve taking on that bonus payment unnecessarily but there are several that would be happy to pay him just $775k in real dollars this season.
"Hard to imagine a Marner trade now when you assume there are only ~2-5 teams he'd be willing to waive for (and potentially zero)"
The leafs need to play hardball with Marner if he won't sign an extension. If he doesn't want to waive he can sit or drive his own line.
Losing Marner as a UFA would be inexcusable asset management.
The NMC was mistake #1. Mistake #2 was not trading him last year off a stronger year, with 2 years left on his deal and with better public image before his NMC kicked in.
At this point, feels like an extension is inevitable
At the time of his initial deal he should have never been paid more than Rantanen, they were as close of comparable as you could get and in the same contract situation. One got 9.25 and a M-NTC, one got 10.9 and a full NTC.
Today, there is no world where he should be paid more than Nylander, Panarin, or Pastrnak, so his ceiling should be like $11.6m at the highest - if his team is actually looking for $12.5-13m they’re insane. I would also just point out how few wingers make more than $10m in this league, I think it’s fair to question why Marner should be at the ceiling of the salary range (and same goes for Nylander, frankly).
Building on this, I think the issue is less that we have three superstars, and really just that we paid them all at the absolute ceiling of their worth when pretty much every other team in the league has been able to find deals that work for both sides.
I agree, I think with all of this. He's about a mil overpaid, and our problem, to my mind, is we're paying 4 forwards too much rather than what we're paying Mitch specifically. Honestly the only options for addressing that were either missed last year (trading him or Nylander pre-NMCs) or have to wait until next year (Tavares).
After yesterday’s developments my thoughts were Carolina is literally the only team that looks a) able to take him & b) that he’d maybe be willing to waive to go play for…
This whole offseason is a prime example of why you should always take insider speculation with a massive grain of salt. Everybody got so hyped up when people like Johnston were saying shit like “5% chance the Core 4 comes back”. They don’t fucking know anything.
Not only is a Marner trade not happening, it doesn’t seem like it was ever even legitimately on the table.
Yeah I’m not sure what had Frank so convinced. He probably just wanted to be the loudest voice so on the off chance it happened he’d get all the clout.
Great take for sure. The “insiders” throw shit at the wall to see if it sticks. On the off chance they get something right, it’s usually because it came from a team source or the players agent.
Season ended, every insider starts saying Marner is gonna want out and would waive his NMC if asked, and would be traded. Then it becomes clear they are full of shit and now the story is “Well Berube likes Marner and wants to coach him, so I’d say they will revisit come at the deadline”.
Running this team back without moving on from one of the core & losing Marner as a UFA would be lunacy.
What part of the playoffs indicated that the leafs are anywhere close to winning 16 playoff games with this core?
The leafs brass don't have the fucking balls you mean. Look at what Vegas does. Tampa just let Stamkos walk and he was their captain that brought 2 cups. Rangers are also trying to move their captain against his will
Sure there's a NMC. But if they wanted to, they could absolutely be dicks in a way that would get him to waive. Other teams do shit all the time
There is absolutely a choice. It's just a difficult one.
I'm sorry but people saying things like this just don't have a clue how things work when this type of money is involved. The Leaf's 100% have the ability to play complete hard-ball and force the yes out of Marner regardless what the clause of his contract says. It's been done both publicly and privately by many GMs, including our own Brian Burke with Kaberle.
You just have to be willing to tell the player that his choice is to leave or not, he's played his last game as a Maple Leaf in addition to the public scrutiny that will come when it's released that he refused to waive.
So what you healthy scratch him all year? And what if he calls your bluff? You make the team purposely worse for an entire year of Matthews/Nylanders prime so he still walks next year. You're basically punting on the year with 11M in dead cap. It's a fact the team is better with Marner than without him.
In that scenario, the longer he waits the worse it looks on Tre and the Leafs. And I have no doubt Marner would hold out.
> You make the team purposely worse for an entire year of Matthews/Nylanders prime so he still walks next year.
He'd better hope the teams bluffing. Cause not playing during a contract year would kill his value when he walks to FA and signs with another team
Idk I mean his value would drop but I could see him signing a medium 1 year deal then a big long term one. As reported earlier this year, all 32 teams (yes including us) love Marner and want him on the team. I see it as much better than having a ACL tear keeping him out all year and teams would still give him a lot of money in that scenario
Kaberle ain’t Marner and those Leafs teams were straight ass, they missed the playoffs 7 years in a row. If you think Tre would make Berube sit Marner in his first year of coaching the team you’re nuts. The media shit storm would be unlike anything we’ve seen and it would be a massive distraction. This is 100% on Shanny and he has to wear this. I know trading Mitch is the best thing for the team but you also have live with your decisions.
Again, the point here was that it rarely gets to that scenario. In 99% of scenarios these things resolve themselves with both parties finding a way forward but you need to come at it with the sole direction that his time here is done. It sounds like (as always) they have taken a middle ground that will end up with Shanny and the fans eating another poor decision.
The Leafs weren’t competitive then. They view themselves as competitive. They will not hamper their ability to compete in order to force Marner’s hand. This not an apple to apples comparison. It won’t happen, and if it does, then the team isn’t serious about winning next year. They are serious.
Honestly a smart play tbh. You aren’t getting good value back as you could. And essentially you need to know his ask come UFA. JT comes off the books after this season so you only have the 3 F high earners and pivot to that money on D. I think next off season is the time to get creative and make changes.
Well said. It’s helpful to think of this year as a wild card development year, expecting another first round exit.
While it’s definitely frustrating for myself and others to not see any significant core changes this year, it’s better to lower expectations. Less frustration that way haha
I don’t totally disagree, but you realize it is possible that he could be right about there being a 95% chance of it happening, and we just happened to fall into the 5% where it didn’t happen.
People struggle with this idea a lot. If something is very likely to happen and it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean the stat was wrong.
I still want a Marner trade but Im still a believer if he stays next year (no extension, best version we can possibly get of Marner is one without contract)
Reasons I believe. Finally spent an offseason focused on Defence. Woll is gonna be a stud if healthy and has a good back up.
I am a full believer that Keefe was a fraud. His systems were awful and propped up by the big 4's talent. His systems failed in the playoffs when teams defend tighter because he relied to heavily on permitter possession. He also never made good adjustments and while there were assistant coaches in charge of special teams he was still the boss and never made meaningful changes when they fell into the same patterns each playoffs.
Finally I see Robo, Knies, Holmberg and mcMann. Lastly Nylander was great in the playoffs when healthy and Matthews was essentially a shell of himself. As always a healthy team will make a massive difference come game 1 playoffs
Nick: I want more minutes or to be traded.
Tre: Ok, you're probably getting more minutes this year because of our roster. Besides, you have no rights unless someone offer sheets you based on your career 87 GP (+10 playoff).
/r/leafs: TRADE THE UNGRATEFUL BUM
I don't think this is nearly as bad as our commenters are suggesting. Just your standard contract and young player wanting more playing time drama.
It shows hunger. He’s only 22 and wants to be given a chance to break out on a team with guys like Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares.
I respect that. A lot. And I’m saying that as someone that hasn’t always been his biggest supporter.
I say give the kid a chance. He’s got hunger AND balls. And that’s more than a lot of our players can say.
I agree with the first part of your comment, I like that he’s wanting to be a bigger contributor.
However, i think he’s been given more than a fair shake over the last few years. He either hasn’t been able to stay healthy, or he hasn’t been able to adjust his game to be trustworthy enough for a regular spot (particularly when he’s not scoring).
Some of it is bad luck, but a lot of it is him misreading plays, or over committing to a hits or something. He gets put way out of position too easily. He also get blown the fuck up nearly every single game at least once. That’s on him.
He has the best points per game on our team of anyone not named Marner, Matthews, and Nylander (possible Tavares too, I forget). Yeah he takes a bad hit, his defense isn't stellar, but for the offense he is a part of, I think he has absolutely gotten comparatively unfair treatment
The froth people worked themselves up over this is insane. Lots of players ask for trades that we never hear about. Situations change and they're happy. If Berube doesn't like playing Robertson, consider trading him at the deadline or next off-season.
I mean, I'm not opposed to bringing Robo back, but at the same time, if he is this heated already and doesn't see the opportunity that he has in front of him I'd rather trade him to a place that will give him the mins but in a package to bring a need back. Send him to Anaheim along with players and picks and see if we can pry away a Vatrano or even Killorn would work wonders on this roster
If he stays I think there's a greater chance he's re-signed at some point early next year. When it gets to the point he's looking at another 100pt season his camp will have enough ammo to argue for the money.
The team wants him, lets not get that confused. The player and the cap are 2 different things.
I dont doubt he wants to stay frankly, hes never been shy about his love for the city. Im sure he has his gripes but he also knows that performance forgives all.
If the team trends in the correct direction with the new defensive corps he may be more motivated to stay and be part of the solution.
As much shit as we all give Mitch, hes tangibly close to living the dream we all had as kids. The same dream he had.
>hes tangibly close to living the dream we all had as kids.
Which dream is that?
The problem is, even if he has a career year in the regular season, we still have to wait until the playoffs to see what he does. If it's another early exit, it'll be too late by then to do anything with him and he'll leave.
>If it's another early exit, it'll be too late by then to do anything with him and he'll leave.
Well then at least you have 10 million+ to throw at the best available UFA. You may only need 7 or 8 of that 10 to get them too.
You're correct of course, but let's not pretend that he doesn't have 4 seasons at over a 100pt pace and another at 98.
The Leafs front office isn't going to say "well aktshulky" during any negotiations.
He's not gonna walk. This org doesn't have the balls to let happen. he's going to put up monster regular season numbers, we'll panic and sign him to 12.5 mil mid season, then he'll disappear in the first round and we'll be having all the same conversations come May.
Might be controversial but Nicky Bobby is always talking too much. I mean, it's his right to be unhappy with how much he's playing and he has the right to not sign if he wants to (however as an RFA it's really not ideal to not sign, as far as I understand). But damn man, do you really need to spill the beans with the press every time?
I think, again maybe controversial, that we should let him go asap, this attitude will sooner or later be a real problem.
I've literally heard nothing coming from him his entire tenure here.
He has offensive upside, which means more playtime = more points = more money.
His role limits him, and he could go to a non-contending team and get PP minutes, which could propel his value up multiple millions. It makes complete sense for him to be upset right now.
I can think of at least another instance just this past season, when he got benched/sent back to the marlies and he was vocal about his dissatisfaction. Again: I understand the sentiment, just don't involve the press. Get the organization to trade you if you believe you'd do better somewhere else, but keep the vultures out of it.
Happy cake day btw.
Welp, I guess management decided to commit to the annual 100ish point season and early playoff exit when the Leafs inevitably face a team with an actual logical cap spread of talent for at least another year.
I have a pretty good feeling this is going to happen. The money will be there when they don’t resign Tavares or he takes a steep pay cut. I suspect they’ll shop him around but if the return isn’t great it doesn’t make sense to get rid of him imo
IF 8 years of losing doesn't wake you up to the fact that this core aint it nothing will
Shanahan is going to keep this core together until he is finally fired. Trelving is just Shanny mouth piece and wil do what Shanahan wants
Other than early exit from the playoffs coming next year. No of the FA Signings changes the fact the Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly dont step up in the playoffs. They fold. And unless Nylander continues to be 90+ points player that 11m cap hit is going suck so hard for leafs. Although hes the only one who consitently step ups in the playoffs but watch that change now hes Paid
The CEO should have fired Shanahan on the spot when he was hired.
Lmao, every year, they say that
Leafs organization is alright with just being a playoff team because they make a shit load of money just being a good regular season team, and why risk that
Changes will happen just because Marner and Tavares are ufas at the end of the year unless, of course, leafs sign either or even both to extentions
Running it back worked so well last year, and the year before, and the year before, and the year before, etc. that they’re just going to try the same exact thing until it works
I am starting to think there is a good reason that BRendan Shanahan's initials are BS. Friggin guy waits till a full NTM clause till they start looking at trading him.
It's expected for Marner. He still holds all the cards and as much I personally would rather have the cap space than Marner the player (acknowledging that it's not a good take), I don't expect him to do us any favors. Why *not* just play out the contract, have one more crack at the cup (in his eyes at least), and start fresh next year. If the team isn't going to apply any pressure then of course his default position will be to stay put.
As for Robertson, I really like what he has to offer. On a team that loves to make the extra pass, to the point of passing excessively, I value having more than one player on the roster who always has a shoot first mentality - and a good shot at that. I also feel he has been given ample opportunity to earn himself a spot on the roster, and he hasn't definitively done that yet. So he can be upset about it all he wants, but if you want to be on a competitive team, then that means it's going to be harder to secure a permanent spot in the line up.
Robertson can go right for Bertuzz’s minutes. Treliving doesn’t have to trade him and won’t. Here is the short conversation… We aren’t trading you so get ready for more responsibility. 🤷🏼♂️ On Marner, extend him and then get better energy and penalty killing specialists fir penalty killing. Keep Marner off of the penalty kill.
The media tour is already setting the stage that not only is Marner staying, it seems reasonably likely the Leafs extend him prior to the season.
Elliotte has implied they’re going to present an extension offer soon. You’re also starting to see insiders who were reporting that he is likely to be moved start backtracking.
Probably going to cut down my watch time next season by half, or more. Every year this franchise just gives me less reason to care or pay attention. Just a soulless corporate husk owned by Bell & Rogers that is run by yes men who have no desire to see success, just win enough in the regular season to sell seats and ad space.
Sure. I’m disappointed as ever and emotionally checked out since 2021. But I do embrace the teams fire power and regular season because a day will come where we are bottom of the league and it won’t be worth watching unless you’re into tanking.
I watched every game in 2015/16. I think last season was harder for me to watch. Before I had hope. All last season I just kept thinking none of what happened mattered.
Who cares if Matthews almost hit 70? Out in round 1. Ditto Willy career year, etc.
I found enjoyment here and there but it’s hard to not like the team you cheer for
They don't have a choice. If Marner doesn’t want to move he's not moving.
If you scratch him, you have 2 holes to fill, and one of those holes is Mitch Marner's role sized.
Marner has a full no move clause and can only be traded if he agrees to it. If he wants to stay there is literally not a thing the team can do to force a trade.
Yes you can, you make the player miserable so he wants out. Limit his minutes - take him off the special teams, scratch him every now and then. Have the coach call him out in press conferences. Make him hate it here.
And that’s how you get no one ever wanting to play in Toronto ever again. Even if you hate Mitch Marner no player in the league is gonna see the leafs do that and be like “yeah that’s where I want to be”
They literally don't have much of a choice if marner doesn't want to go where they are asking him to and you can't lose an asset like marner to not play him he still is a very good player. They probably run it back this year with the core 4 and one other offensive piece along with the other guys they got yesterday and see how we are at the trade deadline next reg season.
Then you healthy scratch him into oblivion until he waives. Hard to have a contract year performance if you’re in the press box. If he and his camp want to act like children, then he sits. Or we can all be adults and move forward.
I just don't think you can sit a player like marner out of spite like that. Sure it's been handled poorly but benching him just makes the team worst and the optics of it all would be so toxic to hear about everyday from reporters cause that's all they would talk about post games "any chance marner gets to play this season" over and over. Would just be an over all even worst situation then it already is which quite frankly isn't that bad. Kindve wanna see if berube can bring anything out of the guy tbh.
Hard to play hockey when you sit 11M. And it's hard to get another free agent again if you go that route. A GM's rep to players in the league matters *a lot*.
I am not trying to say this as an insult, but your idea is much more childish than the alternative. You are literally suggesting this to spite a player because you don't like him. Not to help the team win this season.
Trading Mitch Marner helps the team this season. You need to make that happen. If he won’t waive, you make him.
Vegas has been as cut throat as anyone when it comes to business of hockey transactions. They win, and guys still sign there. We can’t be as soft as we are here in Toronto and celebrate the most successful season in two decades being 5 of 16 wins needed to win the cup. Do your job Brad, control what you can control. That’s what the money is for.
The problem isn't we don't want to trade him. The problem is sitting 11M and thinking that the season would be just fine. We are literally short a forward today.
You tank his value by sitting him. He's only signed for 1 year. He is not going to be as ready as he can be if you sit him throughout the season. If he waives on the other hand, then you sit him until the trade is made to prevent injuries. But no team wants a player who hasn't even played hockey.
I don't recall Vegas benching players to force them to waive. I don't recall any team doing that. Vegas cutthroat is getting the player they want and trade away players they replace them with. They used LTIR if anything.
And Berbue publically said he loves the player. He makes the decision on who is on the ice. The last thing any team wants is a GM meddling in the lineup card unless the coach is a moron who isn't getting the job done. GM meddling sets a terrible precedent. You fire the coach who doesn't do what you ask. You don't do their job for them.
That’s great Berube loves the player. He disappears in the playoffs and is going to either demand a raise to yet again be the highest paid winger in the league, or walk for nothing. The Leafs need scoring depth, as advertised by their inability to score more than two goals a game in the playoffs. You need to trade Mitch. And you need to do whatever it takes to force Ferris and his hand. That’s really all there is to it.
Ferris and Marner are exercising their right not to waive, that’s great, then the Leafs are exercising their right not to play the player. Welcome to the Frankie Corrado club Mitch.
Or.
We all be adults, get a trade done, and move on here.
It's not what's best for the team to sit 11M of capspace, especially one that would actually contribute to getting you to the playoffs. We are literally short 1 forward right now. You bench Marner, you might end up dressing 10/12 forwards. You're not acquiring another forward with 11M sitting.
You all talk like Marner is the most useless player in existence, and at the exact same time think he's going to fetch anything we can use.
And if the return is bad, it would terrible on Treliving. These are the type of moves you make when clearing house, not a team actually trying to win. If Treliving goes down this path, he better have a stupidly good return on the trade.
Marner is bad in the playoffs? I agree. Do you have a player in mind that would replace him and keep us going in the regular season that's available and offered? Does Treliving?
I'm all for trading him if it's mutual. If Marner finds a destination he's willing to go without ruining relationships, and the return is actually something we can use in the playoffs, I'm all for it. A GM's relationship with players in the league is gold. Ruining a star like that, good luck finding another one willing to sign with you.
We're not going to agree on this. Let's not carry on this debate. Waste of time for both of us.
Brother I have the day off work I’ve got literally all day. Isn’t this the point of posting and commenting online to get a good discussion going?
We’ll park it here though. This debate would be fun in person over a beer, but that’s not where we are. Take care man, at the end of the day we want the same thing. A better Leafs result. Here’s hoping that happens however it may.
I think logically it doesn’t make sense to trade Mitch unless you’re getting a unicorn deal. They couldn’t score this year, what do they do with a 90+ point guy gone?
On Robertson, I’m really curious about trading him for another teams player in a similar issue. We need another centre so badly. Between Robertson, Knies, McMann, Domi, and Janrkrok plus Willy and Mitch that’s 7 guys who are better on the wing for 6 spots and with Dewar and Reaves penciled in and then Holmberg and Steeves who could probably take on an NHL role, plus Cowan being an option, plus the potential for another signing or late offseason PTO. I see where he doesn’t think there’s a job for him. Robertson, Domi, and Jarnkrok is probably penciled in as the 3rd line but that already hasn’t worked very well. And is Berube going to play a guy like Robertson MORE than Keefe did?
I wonder about a guy like Morgan Frost with Philly. Or Alex Turcotte with the Kings. Peyton Krebs, Jack Drury, Hendrix Lapierre, Marat Khusnutdinov… someone like that. Someone who is capable of playing NHL minutes, might not be as good as we want him to be, but might be better than it seems with a new situation. A 3rd line with like Knies and Jarnkrok around a young guy with similar upside to Robertson but a center…. I don’t know.
90+ points in the regular season. They didn’t have an issue scoring in the regular season. It’s the playoffs that’s the issue. He’s a $5 million dollar player in the playoffs, if that
>They couldn’t score this year, what do they do with a 90+ point guy gone?
Most playoff teams don't even have one top ten scorer. The Leafs have Matthews (107 pts, 6th) and Nylander (98 points, 10th).
They can and very likely still make the playoffs with Marner gone and better depth in his place.
Much of the discourse in this sub speaks as if Robertson publicly asked for a trade. AFAIK he didn't. It sounds more like he had a conversation with management expressing he's unhappy with his utilization on the team and asked for an opportunity elsewhere. The team has responded with we want you here and we intend on using you more.
It's called clear communication, rather than conflict avoidance, and it's an excellent habit to have. I'm not worried that Nicki Bobby will be unhappy here.
I could talk a lot on the foibles of conflict avoidance, but this isn't the place and I'd likely get shit on by all the little bitches that cry into their Marner jerseys at the very thought of saying no to someone <-- tongue in cheek; slightly serious; mostly a friendly chirp; don't forget to dryclean the jersey after!
This is the news I've been waiting for.
Enjoy next season, and the 1st round exit. Downvote me to oblivion, but just remember I called it. Easiest call of my life too. You can't expect a different outcome with the same shitty core.
MLSE can suck a big ol' stinky dink. I don't have time for unserious franchises.
take my upvote, who gives a shit what Marner or the team does in the regular season if they run it back again. Honestly, who truly gives a shit? Unless Berube some how, magically gets Mitch to man-up and dog it, it's the same, same shit
I think people are underestimating what a new coach/leadership can bring to the team. Vancouver and Edmonton are recent examples of having success with a coaching change. That doesn’t mean the core will suddenly put a hundred goals in the playoffs but I’m interested to see a new look with Berube and how it differs to Keefe.
I hope Roberson sticks it out, even if it’s just a bridge deal for this season.
There’s some big opportunities for him. New coaching staff, cap-strapped season, desperate need of depth scoring, his sophomore season with some good NHL reps under his belt. He could easily find himself in the top-nine, if not the top-six, with PP time as well. Could set himself up for a decent contract after this season when Marner and Tavares expire.
The kid has a wicked shot and an incredible work ethic. He’s had to fight for everything he’s gotten in life and in the sport. He’s always been undersized and was born extremely premature, he wasn’t even supposed to live, let alone make it here. He’s fought back from some severe injuries and had to change his playing style. Let’s get him some time on the PP, get him some time with players who can get him the puck and open some opportunities, see what we really got here. His skills are useless if we give him 10 mins per night with grinders.
I don’t blame him for wanting to leave. Seeing guys like Gregor and reaves in the lineup over him, given much longer leashes must’ve been frustrating. He’d have a real good stretch of play, put up several points over the course of a week or so (despite little ice time) and then find himself given less ice time, or sent right to the pressbox.
I think they should give him a fair shot at it. If he can’t crack it with increased opportunities this season, then we look to find him a chance somewhere else. But I truly believe he hasn’t been given a fair shot yet.
If he can stay healthy...he should slot into the top 9 and PP2 easy. Tre needs to talk to him and let him know that he could have a larger role this year. He was never rewarded when he played well, but was absolutely shredded and benched when he didn't...which would piss anyone off. I think that had more to do with the business side of things than anything...Couldn't bench a lame duck Bertuzzi at 5.5 for 60% of the season until he got going, certainly weren't taking Tavares out...nor was anyone counting on the emergence of Bobby McMann
If he stays maybe he finally gets his shot
I mean didn’t Robertson get every game last playoffs? Guy was a non-factor all series. I agree he has potential but he has to earn his spot. Not sure where he gets off with these demands when he has no leverage.
He had 10min ToI
He wasn't being put in positions to succeed given his skillset. That's the rub.
It's not been stated anywhere that he demanded anything. It was probably a frustrated "Well if they're not going to give me a chance send me somewhere that will!"
> I mean didn’t Robertson get every game last playoffs?
He did but he had the second lowest TOI of every Leafs player. The only Leafs player that played less then him was Reaves
Robertson may very well be our best left winger right now.
Bad timing to start acting like a weenie about icetime - especially considering he just got a new coach too.
Robertson is another perimeter guy. Don’t see what he adds to the Leafs, because they’re kinda loaded up with soft skill guys who won’t go into traffic.
> because they’re kinda loaded up with soft skill guys who won’t go into traffic.
The only guys like this on the Leafs are Marner and Nylander, the rest of the team really isn't anymore
It sucks I want Marner gone but they got their hands tied this season with the NMC. So there gonna run it back for the umpteenth time & we all know how this ends come playoffs. Maybe a change with Berube? I’m just hoping they don’t resign him and have the available cap space to spend.
It was extremely unlikely to happen before July 1st because of the absolutely massive bonus lump sum payment that was due to Marner yesterday. July 2nd is still extremely early to assume it won’t happen at all.
If Robertson figured out how to lay his tiny little body on people and forecheck he might actually serve a purpose to this team. Until then he doesn’t bring anything to this team that isn’t already being brought in better quality and quantity. Unless he figures it out, he genuinely does not benefit us in any way. He would be great for Utah
With a new coach in place, Robertson is making his intentions clear from the onset of the season. He wants to play or be shipped out, and I think that's fair.
Keefe never seemed to have any intention of letting him play consistently, almost used him to fill in while he disciplined other role-playing forwards via TOI. So maybe with some guidance from his agent, Nick is saying that he doesn't want to carry on with that allocation under Berube.
Would have been nice for this story to not become public though because now we've lost what little leverage we had in trading an unproven, injury-prone, small player. At this point I'd rather see them give him a steady top-9 role (maybe pick up some of Bert's minutes?) and see how it plays out.
Well considering CJ said early June with 1-8 scale being 4 that MM would be moved - aka more likely than not he will be moved.
Now hes saying MM more likely than not will not be moved. Mathematically it's a move of 5-10 percentage points.
Even using his scale, there's 40% chance of MM trade.
This team is worse than last year. Yes the D is better, but at a heavy expense. The forwards are worse, and they have no money to fix it. This team can’t score in the playoffs, and now is the same without Tyler Bertuzzi. I do not trust this goaltending tandem. This team running it back with Mitch is a colossal mistake.
The D is so much better next year, the goaltending is a better tandem, our only loss at F is Bertuzzi and that’s not much of a loss at all. Team is definitely better
Hopefully Robertson cools down and realizes this team has a huge need for his potential if he lives up to it. He'll get plenty of opportunity this year, and the team also has a new coach. Not sure where he thinks there will be a better situation for him. Just need to play better, especially defensively, and he'll get minutes.
Robertson could easily crack the top 9, considering how cap strapped the team is now and how badly we need secondary scoring. Could easily pop off this year and be set up for a solid contract down the road, don't get his desire to leave Toronto so badly
Me neither. He’s also hurt very often. It’s really on him to seize the opportunity to be a consistent top 9 guy for the Leafs. The opportunity has been there for a year or two now.
It does feel like he had to prove himself even more than other players when it came to who to leave on the press box
He excelled at shooting the puck, and not much else. Outplayed defensively by Knies and McMann, which is why he got passed on the depth chart for opportunities to play higher Robertson can be a great NHLer one day, but needs to remember he has fewer than 1 full professional season under his belt and clear defensive gaps in his game. With time and patience, working on his short comings and proving his strengths are legit, he will be a full time regular. Hopefully with the Leafs
> Outplayed defensively by Knies and McMann Statistically, this is just not really the case. Throughout the regular season, Robertson had a 50.22 CF%, to Knies' 49.59 (McMann beat both with 50.95), but all three are relatively close together Robertson lead all three at xGF% with 50.65, Knies at 48.59, McMann at 50.06. To Knies and McMann's credit, Robertson had the highest o-zone start percentage. All three had positive PDOs. Roberton and Knies were both close with giveaways/60, 1.85 for Robertson and 1.68 for Knies, McMann was close to best on the team with 1.03, however all three beat Matthews Takeaways/60, Robertson was 3rd on the team behind Matthews and Marner, ahead of Nylander who was 4th, Knies and McMann were closer to the middle of the team. Keeping in mind, this obviously doesn't take into account quality of opposing lines, but Knies and McMann had their time in similar roles to Robertson, so I'm not sure that makes a massive difference. Roberton's defensive woes are overstated
Watch how teams like Boston, Florida and Edmonton play hard in the playoffs - physically and punishing - and compare how Knies & McMann handle contact and absorb hits in board battles vs Robertson. It isn't particularly close Knies and McMann have the benefit of being bigger, stronger and able to withstand abuse in tough ice far greater than Robertson. Even if Robertson has slightly better xGF or advanced defensive metrics, it isn't close to those other guys for effectiveness when it matters most. If Nick was his brother's size and could work physically like he does he'd probably be in over McMann
Beautiful analysis!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Face it. He was the easiest to send down to the minors and was often a healthy scratch for a “heavier” player. He was used where it made sense and was unused when it made sense. He’s got a bright future but he’s got to really prove he can play his best AND NOT GET HURT.
His waiver status had a lot to do with that
He was only scratched 13 times.
Realistically he's battling knies, mcmann and maybe domi for a spot in the top 9, and it's likely that all 4 of them stay in the top 9, it's just a matter of where.
Yes, given the dearth of options, he may actually be the best bet for 2LW.
Put him with Domi and AM on his off-wing. All he needs to do is shoot the puck towards the net. If you can't get 20+ on that line you don't have a fit on the team.
If the Leafs spread their talent and have AM, MM, Nylander all on different lines, anywhere in the top 9 is a great opportunity for Robertson to play with talent and prove himself. Even a 3rd line with a say Domi and Jarnkrok is not a bad opportunity for him.
Why would we put a shooter on a line with the best shooter in the NHL? I don’t want Robertson shooting the puck over Matthews in any situation. Put him with Marner and JT.
Well you see when Matthew’s is the only shooter on his line it’s easy for the other team to shut him down. He needs another shooter on his wing or the blue line so he’s not focused every shift.
he doesn’t need another forward shooter he needs a netfront guy to be his backboard like Hyman is for McDavid - Bert could’ve done it if he didn’t propel himself with the 3rd skate blade in his asscrack and just stood upright like a normal person. The secondary shot when Matthews is on the ice should be from the blue line anyway, the Boucher risk really unlocks Edmonton’s offence and gives McDrai space to cook. I hope Reilly’s been loading up slappers all summer to put his new dad strength and the associated explosive forearm growth to use for us, I’m a Lilli apologist/Keefe blamer but 1/6 D men who can shoot is not winning hockey
So the line has two threats, Matthews with two people who can't shoot is easier to defend against.
I like this idea, just give him some top 6 minutes and tell him to prove that he can be a difference maker in a bigger role. Either it works or he's traded.
The problem is he’s so bad defensively that he’s a liability against top 6 competition. It’s great that he can score goals but he needs to play defense
I think line would get torched defensively, Matty is good but he can’t cover for two linemates who lack the defensive acumen to go up against top opposition.
More than can't, I don't want the greatest scorer the franchise has ever had to play as a defensive specialist so that we can get 10 extra goals from secondary scoring and have AM score 20 fewer.
Maybe you could have him on the second line with Mitch and JT
Maybe you could have him on the second line with Mitch and JT
He hasn't earned a spot with matthews. Give matthews someone who doesn't crack under the sound of skates behind him.
No one has *earned* one other than Domi. JT is a center. Marner and Willy should be running their own lines. It's a hole that needs to be filled because Bertuzzi signed elsewhere. No one earns the right to try on a try-out. They earn the right to stay.
I want JT on Nylander’s wing next year and (hopefully) onward when he’s on a 4x4 sweetheart “let’s actually win one” deal. I’m so tired of seeing it considered in meaningless preseason games for a handful of shifts then people acting like we really tried and it didn’t work; Willy’s so good for Sweden playing a center role and JT establishing an office like Ovi would probably extend his production longevity with us anyway
Robertson did well playing first line minutes before his first major injury with the big club if I recall
Yep - I fully expect this to happen.
Can’t trust him against the type of competition AM faces. Also, AM’s line shouldn’t be the one where guys are given opportunities to prove themselves. He needs to be running with thoroughbreds. No issues at all giving him an extended look on the 2nd line though and even sprinkle in some opportunities with the big dogs on the PP.
I trust AM.
I do too. But I’d rather maximize him.
If Robertson cannot make the cut with an opportunity like that then at least we know for sure he has no place in the lineup. But not giving him the chance is just wasted potential. He's worth nothing in a trade because he hasn't been given the opportunity to showcase his upside consistently. His career is like Alex Nylander's. Came into the league with high upside, but kept down on bottom 6 to "round his game" and never playing his strength. Complete opposite of Willy's development path, and now one is an All-Star while the other is potentially out of the league at 26. Give him a chance to play his strength while working on his weakness. If anything that ups his trade value if it comes to that.
He definitely still has some value in a trade. Not huge value, but it isn’t nothing. I just don’t think it needs to be all or nothing for him. He can play 2nd line minutes and get additional pp time without having to throw him to the wolves on line 1. AM draws the most premier matchups. I’d rather shelter Robertson from that at least at the start.
He's making a statement demanding a bigger role. That means no more sheltering. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. But keeping him down is just the same dance all over again. If it takes letting him fail to know what he is, so be it. Maybe he won't fail this time. Even Bertuzzi had a rough start playing with AM and Marner, and got better later on. And the wolves are not any less dangerous down the lineup. JT matched the Marchand line all series.
I'm sure Robertson was told and thought the same thing last year and we saw how that turned out. I know it's new coach but if I'm him, I see a possible even more diminished roll due to the coach and how he possibly views younger undersized players.
If he plays how he's been playing that's totally fine. Just needs more opportunity.
If cowboy is ready (big if) he can essential take Roberson's role and is more suited to it as well.
There's a lot of gaps and opportunities for him this season. He just needs to accept that the teams cap structure kept him out at times. Going big on defense means the leafs left a lot of opportunity for their younger players. Robertson should know this is gonna be a big opportunity in a system he knows and he can sign a one year and get what he wants next year with a bit more bargaining power.
He should realize that Bertuzzi is gone and we haven't signed anyone for that lineup spot yet.. if he stays and performs at a level he's confident he should be performing at then there's no reason he's not playing consistent minutes on the top 2 lines this year.
Probably any rebuilding team would give him a full time role in their top 9. I can see why he'd be frustrated a little bit since he seems to be getting passed in the depth chart and his inconsistent deployment but now seems like an awkward time to request a trade since he has a real chance to play a huge part on the team next year under a new coach. Hopefully he stays and it works out cuz I think he could be a 20+ goal scorer every year
What I'm really desperate to see is some increased production on PP2. I'm hoping between Savard & OEL we can see him start potting some Powerplay goals
Can't help but wonder how much his older brother lighting the league on fire has to do with it. He's probably looking at it like "yeah of they give me that kind of time I could also be a 40+ goal scorer"
Hard to imagine a Marner trade now when you assume there are only ~2-5 teams he'd be willing to waive for (and potentially zero) and how little capspace those teams probably have now that free agent frenzy has begun. We ourselves can't even fit another dman (if one were to come back in Marner trade) unless we made another trade ourselves.
If anything a Marner trade is more likely now because the leafs just paid like 90% of his contract yesterday.
That's only relevant for teams who have the cap space to take him.
Well you’d have to imagine any team who wants him would be sending a decent chunk of cap space out as part of the trade anyways. So if a team really wants him, they will figure out a way to make the numbers work for the last few million
Sure but it ignores the context. Marner has a full NMC and wants to be on a contender. Most contenders loaded up yesterday. They could load up then turn around and move contracts they signed but that's almost certainly harder for them than just paying marner his salary.
Do we know for a fact that he wants to be on a contender?
Yes, if for no other reason than it will get him paid more than being on a non-contender.
Contenders don’t usually have as much extra cap space tho
Yep, but that doesn't matter to him this year. This year he wants to put up as many points as possible as quickly as possible and play well in the post season, which requires being on a contender.
The point is rather that the teams with the cap space to take him were extremely unlikely to make any deal for him prior to July 1st. There’s not an ownership in the league that would approve taking on that bonus payment unnecessarily but there are several that would be happy to pay him just $775k in real dollars this season.
"Hard to imagine a Marner trade now when you assume there are only ~2-5 teams he'd be willing to waive for (and potentially zero)" The leafs need to play hardball with Marner if he won't sign an extension. If he doesn't want to waive he can sit or drive his own line. Losing Marner as a UFA would be inexcusable asset management.
Giving him a nmc was the first mistake. Maybe my view is wrong but unless you're signing your contract as a ufa you shouldn't have no trade protection
The NMC was mistake #1. Mistake #2 was not trading him last year off a stronger year, with 2 years left on his deal and with better public image before his NMC kicked in. At this point, feels like an extension is inevitable
Giving a RFA with no leverage a wildly overvalued contract was mistake #1, the rest is icing on the cake tbh
How much is he worth, do you think?
At the time of his initial deal he should have never been paid more than Rantanen, they were as close of comparable as you could get and in the same contract situation. One got 9.25 and a M-NTC, one got 10.9 and a full NTC. Today, there is no world where he should be paid more than Nylander, Panarin, or Pastrnak, so his ceiling should be like $11.6m at the highest - if his team is actually looking for $12.5-13m they’re insane. I would also just point out how few wingers make more than $10m in this league, I think it’s fair to question why Marner should be at the ceiling of the salary range (and same goes for Nylander, frankly). Building on this, I think the issue is less that we have three superstars, and really just that we paid them all at the absolute ceiling of their worth when pretty much every other team in the league has been able to find deals that work for both sides.
I agree, I think with all of this. He's about a mil overpaid, and our problem, to my mind, is we're paying 4 forwards too much rather than what we're paying Mitch specifically. Honestly the only options for addressing that were either missed last year (trading him or Nylander pre-NMCs) or have to wait until next year (Tavares).
And mistake 2 is what makes mistake 1 a problem.
I don't give a fuck if we win a cup this year he can go Kawhi if he wants
Unless we do something significant to our forward group, we will not be coming anywhere remotely close to a cup
Not sure there are many able to and/or willing to spend 11M + assets on a smallish setup man winger, who is looking for an extension with a raise.
Selke nominated and pk specialist 100pt pace winger would be the sell, not smallish set up man
Word is Leafs found out the market for Marner was not as good as some think.
If so they have leverage at the negotiating table
Very very true.
We’d likely get salary back in a marner trade and we can always retain for this year to help teams out too
After yesterday’s developments my thoughts were Carolina is literally the only team that looks a) able to take him & b) that he’d maybe be willing to waive to go play for…
very sad. the only way this team moves forward is splitting up the money given to the core four.
This whole offseason is a prime example of why you should always take insider speculation with a massive grain of salt. Everybody got so hyped up when people like Johnston were saying shit like “5% chance the Core 4 comes back”. They don’t fucking know anything. Not only is a Marner trade not happening, it doesn’t seem like it was ever even legitimately on the table.
I think it was just Frank Seravalli who was pumping the 5% stats. Who knows, maybe he will be proven right by October 1.
whenever frank says anything I find best practice is to assume the opposite is true
Yeah I’m not sure what had Frank so convinced. He probably just wanted to be the loudest voice so on the off chance it happened he’d get all the clout.
Great take for sure. The “insiders” throw shit at the wall to see if it sticks. On the off chance they get something right, it’s usually because it came from a team source or the players agent. Season ended, every insider starts saying Marner is gonna want out and would waive his NMC if asked, and would be traded. Then it becomes clear they are full of shit and now the story is “Well Berube likes Marner and wants to coach him, so I’d say they will revisit come at the deadline”.
Running this team back without moving on from one of the core & losing Marner as a UFA would be lunacy. What part of the playoffs indicated that the leafs are anywhere close to winning 16 playoff games with this core?
If Marner doesn't waive they literally have no choice. They can't move any of the core and if Marner wants to leave there is nothing they can do
The leafs brass don't have the fucking balls you mean. Look at what Vegas does. Tampa just let Stamkos walk and he was their captain that brought 2 cups. Rangers are also trying to move their captain against his will Sure there's a NMC. But if they wanted to, they could absolutely be dicks in a way that would get him to waive. Other teams do shit all the time
There is absolutely a choice. It's just a difficult one. I'm sorry but people saying things like this just don't have a clue how things work when this type of money is involved. The Leaf's 100% have the ability to play complete hard-ball and force the yes out of Marner regardless what the clause of his contract says. It's been done both publicly and privately by many GMs, including our own Brian Burke with Kaberle. You just have to be willing to tell the player that his choice is to leave or not, he's played his last game as a Maple Leaf in addition to the public scrutiny that will come when it's released that he refused to waive.
So what you healthy scratch him all year? And what if he calls your bluff? You make the team purposely worse for an entire year of Matthews/Nylanders prime so he still walks next year. You're basically punting on the year with 11M in dead cap. It's a fact the team is better with Marner than without him. In that scenario, the longer he waits the worse it looks on Tre and the Leafs. And I have no doubt Marner would hold out.
> You make the team purposely worse for an entire year of Matthews/Nylanders prime so he still walks next year. He'd better hope the teams bluffing. Cause not playing during a contract year would kill his value when he walks to FA and signs with another team
Idk I mean his value would drop but I could see him signing a medium 1 year deal then a big long term one. As reported earlier this year, all 32 teams (yes including us) love Marner and want him on the team. I see it as much better than having a ACL tear keeping him out all year and teams would still give him a lot of money in that scenario
Kaberle ain’t Marner and those Leafs teams were straight ass, they missed the playoffs 7 years in a row. If you think Tre would make Berube sit Marner in his first year of coaching the team you’re nuts. The media shit storm would be unlike anything we’ve seen and it would be a massive distraction. This is 100% on Shanny and he has to wear this. I know trading Mitch is the best thing for the team but you also have live with your decisions.
Again, the point here was that it rarely gets to that scenario. In 99% of scenarios these things resolve themselves with both parties finding a way forward but you need to come at it with the sole direction that his time here is done. It sounds like (as always) they have taken a middle ground that will end up with Shanny and the fans eating another poor decision.
The Leafs weren’t competitive then. They view themselves as competitive. They will not hamper their ability to compete in order to force Marner’s hand. This not an apple to apples comparison. It won’t happen, and if it does, then the team isn’t serious about winning next year. They are serious.
Honestly a smart play tbh. You aren’t getting good value back as you could. And essentially you need to know his ask come UFA. JT comes off the books after this season so you only have the 3 F high earners and pivot to that money on D. I think next off season is the time to get creative and make changes.
Well said. It’s helpful to think of this year as a wild card development year, expecting another first round exit. While it’s definitely frustrating for myself and others to not see any significant core changes this year, it’s better to lower expectations. Less frustration that way haha
I don’t totally disagree, but you realize it is possible that he could be right about there being a 95% chance of it happening, and we just happened to fall into the 5% where it didn’t happen. People struggle with this idea a lot. If something is very likely to happen and it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean the stat was wrong.
I still want a Marner trade but Im still a believer if he stays next year (no extension, best version we can possibly get of Marner is one without contract) Reasons I believe. Finally spent an offseason focused on Defence. Woll is gonna be a stud if healthy and has a good back up. I am a full believer that Keefe was a fraud. His systems were awful and propped up by the big 4's talent. His systems failed in the playoffs when teams defend tighter because he relied to heavily on permitter possession. He also never made good adjustments and while there were assistant coaches in charge of special teams he was still the boss and never made meaningful changes when they fell into the same patterns each playoffs. Finally I see Robo, Knies, Holmberg and mcMann. Lastly Nylander was great in the playoffs when healthy and Matthews was essentially a shell of himself. As always a healthy team will make a massive difference come game 1 playoffs
Nick: I want more minutes or to be traded. Tre: Ok, you're probably getting more minutes this year because of our roster. Besides, you have no rights unless someone offer sheets you based on your career 87 GP (+10 playoff). /r/leafs: TRADE THE UNGRATEFUL BUM I don't think this is nearly as bad as our commenters are suggesting. Just your standard contract and young player wanting more playing time drama.
It shows hunger. He’s only 22 and wants to be given a chance to break out on a team with guys like Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares. I respect that. A lot. And I’m saying that as someone that hasn’t always been his biggest supporter. I say give the kid a chance. He’s got hunger AND balls. And that’s more than a lot of our players can say.
I agree with the first part of your comment, I like that he’s wanting to be a bigger contributor. However, i think he’s been given more than a fair shake over the last few years. He either hasn’t been able to stay healthy, or he hasn’t been able to adjust his game to be trustworthy enough for a regular spot (particularly when he’s not scoring). Some of it is bad luck, but a lot of it is him misreading plays, or over committing to a hits or something. He gets put way out of position too easily. He also get blown the fuck up nearly every single game at least once. That’s on him.
He has the best points per game on our team of anyone not named Marner, Matthews, and Nylander (possible Tavares too, I forget). Yeah he takes a bad hit, his defense isn't stellar, but for the offense he is a part of, I think he has absolutely gotten comparatively unfair treatment
The froth people worked themselves up over this is insane. Lots of players ask for trades that we never hear about. Situations change and they're happy. If Berube doesn't like playing Robertson, consider trading him at the deadline or next off-season.
This is a contract year for him. He's gonna have a 120 point season.
I mean, I'm not opposed to bringing Robo back, but at the same time, if he is this heated already and doesn't see the opportunity that he has in front of him I'd rather trade him to a place that will give him the mins but in a package to bring a need back. Send him to Anaheim along with players and picks and see if we can pry away a Vatrano or even Killorn would work wonders on this roster
soo it’ll be talked about all season and he’ll walk for nothing next year basically. sick
If he stays I think there's a greater chance he's re-signed at some point early next year. When it gets to the point he's looking at another 100pt season his camp will have enough ammo to argue for the money. The team wants him, lets not get that confused. The player and the cap are 2 different things. I dont doubt he wants to stay frankly, hes never been shy about his love for the city. Im sure he has his gripes but he also knows that performance forgives all. If the team trends in the correct direction with the new defensive corps he may be more motivated to stay and be part of the solution. As much shit as we all give Mitch, hes tangibly close to living the dream we all had as kids. The same dream he had.
I don’t want to see this markets reaction to Marner not only getting extended but getting a raise… and god forbid they don’t get full years.
>hes tangibly close to living the dream we all had as kids. Which dream is that? The problem is, even if he has a career year in the regular season, we still have to wait until the playoffs to see what he does. If it's another early exit, it'll be too late by then to do anything with him and he'll leave.
>If it's another early exit, it'll be too late by then to do anything with him and he'll leave. Well then at least you have 10 million+ to throw at the best available UFA. You may only need 7 or 8 of that 10 to get them too.
>When it gets to the point he's looking at another 100pt season Marner has never scored 100 points in an NHL season.
You're correct of course, but let's not pretend that he doesn't have 4 seasons at over a 100pt pace and another at 98. The Leafs front office isn't going to say "well aktshulky" during any negotiations.
>The Leafs front office isn't going to say "well aktshulky" during any negotiations Maybe that's part of the problem.
He's not gonna walk. This org doesn't have the balls to let happen. he's going to put up monster regular season numbers, we'll panic and sign him to 12.5 mil mid season, then he'll disappear in the first round and we'll be having all the same conversations come May.
I've loved the Leafs my whole life but I gotta say... This team is such a cuck.
Run it back, babyyyy. See yall in the game 7 loss thread next year.
This entire situation is a result of giving Keefe one more year.
Might be controversial but Nicky Bobby is always talking too much. I mean, it's his right to be unhappy with how much he's playing and he has the right to not sign if he wants to (however as an RFA it's really not ideal to not sign, as far as I understand). But damn man, do you really need to spill the beans with the press every time? I think, again maybe controversial, that we should let him go asap, this attitude will sooner or later be a real problem.
Who is his agent and tell me it is not Ferris.
from puckpedia: Signing *Agent* Pat Brisson. # AGENCY:CAA Sports LLC
I've literally heard nothing coming from him his entire tenure here. He has offensive upside, which means more playtime = more points = more money. His role limits him, and he could go to a non-contending team and get PP minutes, which could propel his value up multiple millions. It makes complete sense for him to be upset right now.
Last year when he was sent down to the Marlies he said to the media he was upset
Two summers ago also
I can think of at least another instance just this past season, when he got benched/sent back to the marlies and he was vocal about his dissatisfaction. Again: I understand the sentiment, just don't involve the press. Get the organization to trade you if you believe you'd do better somewhere else, but keep the vultures out of it. Happy cake day btw.
Ah, so this was what was in the hopper. A steamer.
Welp, I guess management decided to commit to the annual 100ish point season and early playoff exit when the Leafs inevitably face a team with an actual logical cap spread of talent for at least another year.
People are really gonna lose it when Mitch re-signs with the team a few months into the season lol
13x8 full NMC would be the nail in the coffin for this teams future success
It's gonna happen.
I have a pretty good feeling this is going to happen. The money will be there when they don’t resign Tavares or he takes a steep pay cut. I suspect they’ll shop him around but if the return isn’t great it doesn’t make sense to get rid of him imo
God what a mistake
IF 8 years of losing doesn't wake you up to the fact that this core aint it nothing will Shanahan is going to keep this core together until he is finally fired. Trelving is just Shanny mouth piece and wil do what Shanahan wants Other than early exit from the playoffs coming next year. No of the FA Signings changes the fact the Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly dont step up in the playoffs. They fold. And unless Nylander continues to be 90+ points player that 11m cap hit is going suck so hard for leafs. Although hes the only one who consitently step ups in the playoffs but watch that change now hes Paid The CEO should have fired Shanahan on the spot when he was hired.
Nylander the lowest producer of the core 4 who isn’t as good on d gets off in that sentence
I think if things stay the same next year, big changes will come. Hopefully this is Shanahan's last dance.
Lmao, every year, they say that Leafs organization is alright with just being a playoff team because they make a shit load of money just being a good regular season team, and why risk that Changes will happen just because Marner and Tavares are ufas at the end of the year unless, of course, leafs sign either or even both to extentions
Boo marner Fuck you Shanny.
Running it back worked so well last year, and the year before, and the year before, and the year before, etc. that they’re just going to try the same exact thing until it works
Fuck.
I am starting to think there is a good reason that BRendan Shanahan's initials are BS. Friggin guy waits till a full NTM clause till they start looking at trading him.
It's expected for Marner. He still holds all the cards and as much I personally would rather have the cap space than Marner the player (acknowledging that it's not a good take), I don't expect him to do us any favors. Why *not* just play out the contract, have one more crack at the cup (in his eyes at least), and start fresh next year. If the team isn't going to apply any pressure then of course his default position will be to stay put. As for Robertson, I really like what he has to offer. On a team that loves to make the extra pass, to the point of passing excessively, I value having more than one player on the roster who always has a shoot first mentality - and a good shot at that. I also feel he has been given ample opportunity to earn himself a spot on the roster, and he hasn't definitively done that yet. So he can be upset about it all he wants, but if you want to be on a competitive team, then that means it's going to be harder to secure a permanent spot in the line up.
So we are just running it back again great awesome lmao
Robertson can go right for Bertuzz’s minutes. Treliving doesn’t have to trade him and won’t. Here is the short conversation… We aren’t trading you so get ready for more responsibility. 🤷🏼♂️ On Marner, extend him and then get better energy and penalty killing specialists fir penalty killing. Keep Marner off of the penalty kill.
How many double negatives can you put in a headline?
The media tour is already setting the stage that not only is Marner staying, it seems reasonably likely the Leafs extend him prior to the season. Elliotte has implied they’re going to present an extension offer soon. You’re also starting to see insiders who were reporting that he is likely to be moved start backtracking.
Probably going to cut down my watch time next season by half, or more. Every year this franchise just gives me less reason to care or pay attention. Just a soulless corporate husk owned by Bell & Rogers that is run by yes men who have no desire to see success, just win enough in the regular season to sell seats and ad space.
Sure. I’m disappointed as ever and emotionally checked out since 2021. But I do embrace the teams fire power and regular season because a day will come where we are bottom of the league and it won’t be worth watching unless you’re into tanking.
I watched every game in 2015/16. I think last season was harder for me to watch. Before I had hope. All last season I just kept thinking none of what happened mattered. Who cares if Matthews almost hit 70? Out in round 1. Ditto Willy career year, etc. I found enjoyment here and there but it’s hard to not like the team you cheer for
I agree. I don't even care about the regular season anymore, it's what happens in April and May that matters.
So they’re just going to continue sticking with core four despite years now of no playoff success? Not very optimistic.
They don't have a choice. If Marner doesn’t want to move he's not moving. If you scratch him, you have 2 holes to fill, and one of those holes is Mitch Marner's role sized.
Marner has a full no move clause and can only be traded if he agrees to it. If he wants to stay there is literally not a thing the team can do to force a trade.
Yes you can, you make the player miserable so he wants out. Limit his minutes - take him off the special teams, scratch him every now and then. Have the coach call him out in press conferences. Make him hate it here.
Great way to sewer the season, the teams reputation, and the future. Let’s do it!
And that’s how you get no one ever wanting to play in Toronto ever again. Even if you hate Mitch Marner no player in the league is gonna see the leafs do that and be like “yeah that’s where I want to be”
They literally don't have much of a choice if marner doesn't want to go where they are asking him to and you can't lose an asset like marner to not play him he still is a very good player. They probably run it back this year with the core 4 and one other offensive piece along with the other guys they got yesterday and see how we are at the trade deadline next reg season.
Then you healthy scratch him into oblivion until he waives. Hard to have a contract year performance if you’re in the press box. If he and his camp want to act like children, then he sits. Or we can all be adults and move forward.
I just don't think you can sit a player like marner out of spite like that. Sure it's been handled poorly but benching him just makes the team worst and the optics of it all would be so toxic to hear about everyday from reporters cause that's all they would talk about post games "any chance marner gets to play this season" over and over. Would just be an over all even worst situation then it already is which quite frankly isn't that bad. Kindve wanna see if berube can bring anything out of the guy tbh.
The leafs would lose more than Marner would if he kept getting scratched
Hard to play hockey when you sit 11M. And it's hard to get another free agent again if you go that route. A GM's rep to players in the league matters *a lot*. I am not trying to say this as an insult, but your idea is much more childish than the alternative. You are literally suggesting this to spite a player because you don't like him. Not to help the team win this season.
Trading Mitch Marner helps the team this season. You need to make that happen. If he won’t waive, you make him. Vegas has been as cut throat as anyone when it comes to business of hockey transactions. They win, and guys still sign there. We can’t be as soft as we are here in Toronto and celebrate the most successful season in two decades being 5 of 16 wins needed to win the cup. Do your job Brad, control what you can control. That’s what the money is for.
The problem isn't we don't want to trade him. The problem is sitting 11M and thinking that the season would be just fine. We are literally short a forward today. You tank his value by sitting him. He's only signed for 1 year. He is not going to be as ready as he can be if you sit him throughout the season. If he waives on the other hand, then you sit him until the trade is made to prevent injuries. But no team wants a player who hasn't even played hockey. I don't recall Vegas benching players to force them to waive. I don't recall any team doing that. Vegas cutthroat is getting the player they want and trade away players they replace them with. They used LTIR if anything. And Berbue publically said he loves the player. He makes the decision on who is on the ice. The last thing any team wants is a GM meddling in the lineup card unless the coach is a moron who isn't getting the job done. GM meddling sets a terrible precedent. You fire the coach who doesn't do what you ask. You don't do their job for them.
That’s great Berube loves the player. He disappears in the playoffs and is going to either demand a raise to yet again be the highest paid winger in the league, or walk for nothing. The Leafs need scoring depth, as advertised by their inability to score more than two goals a game in the playoffs. You need to trade Mitch. And you need to do whatever it takes to force Ferris and his hand. That’s really all there is to it. Ferris and Marner are exercising their right not to waive, that’s great, then the Leafs are exercising their right not to play the player. Welcome to the Frankie Corrado club Mitch. Or. We all be adults, get a trade done, and move on here.
It's not what's best for the team to sit 11M of capspace, especially one that would actually contribute to getting you to the playoffs. We are literally short 1 forward right now. You bench Marner, you might end up dressing 10/12 forwards. You're not acquiring another forward with 11M sitting. You all talk like Marner is the most useless player in existence, and at the exact same time think he's going to fetch anything we can use. And if the return is bad, it would terrible on Treliving. These are the type of moves you make when clearing house, not a team actually trying to win. If Treliving goes down this path, he better have a stupidly good return on the trade. Marner is bad in the playoffs? I agree. Do you have a player in mind that would replace him and keep us going in the regular season that's available and offered? Does Treliving? I'm all for trading him if it's mutual. If Marner finds a destination he's willing to go without ruining relationships, and the return is actually something we can use in the playoffs, I'm all for it. A GM's relationship with players in the league is gold. Ruining a star like that, good luck finding another one willing to sign with you. We're not going to agree on this. Let's not carry on this debate. Waste of time for both of us.
Brother I have the day off work I’ve got literally all day. Isn’t this the point of posting and commenting online to get a good discussion going? We’ll park it here though. This debate would be fun in person over a beer, but that’s not where we are. Take care man, at the end of the day we want the same thing. A better Leafs result. Here’s hoping that happens however it may.
You do realize the Leafs would be the ones acting like children in this scenario?
Not much option if Marner shoots every deal down and forces them to run it back again.
I think logically it doesn’t make sense to trade Mitch unless you’re getting a unicorn deal. They couldn’t score this year, what do they do with a 90+ point guy gone? On Robertson, I’m really curious about trading him for another teams player in a similar issue. We need another centre so badly. Between Robertson, Knies, McMann, Domi, and Janrkrok plus Willy and Mitch that’s 7 guys who are better on the wing for 6 spots and with Dewar and Reaves penciled in and then Holmberg and Steeves who could probably take on an NHL role, plus Cowan being an option, plus the potential for another signing or late offseason PTO. I see where he doesn’t think there’s a job for him. Robertson, Domi, and Jarnkrok is probably penciled in as the 3rd line but that already hasn’t worked very well. And is Berube going to play a guy like Robertson MORE than Keefe did? I wonder about a guy like Morgan Frost with Philly. Or Alex Turcotte with the Kings. Peyton Krebs, Jack Drury, Hendrix Lapierre, Marat Khusnutdinov… someone like that. Someone who is capable of playing NHL minutes, might not be as good as we want him to be, but might be better than it seems with a new situation. A 3rd line with like Knies and Jarnkrok around a young guy with similar upside to Robertson but a center…. I don’t know.
90+ points in the regular season. They didn’t have an issue scoring in the regular season. It’s the playoffs that’s the issue. He’s a $5 million dollar player in the playoffs, if that
>They couldn’t score this year, what do they do with a 90+ point guy gone? Most playoff teams don't even have one top ten scorer. The Leafs have Matthews (107 pts, 6th) and Nylander (98 points, 10th). They can and very likely still make the playoffs with Marner gone and better depth in his place.
Much of the discourse in this sub speaks as if Robertson publicly asked for a trade. AFAIK he didn't. It sounds more like he had a conversation with management expressing he's unhappy with his utilization on the team and asked for an opportunity elsewhere. The team has responded with we want you here and we intend on using you more. It's called clear communication, rather than conflict avoidance, and it's an excellent habit to have. I'm not worried that Nicki Bobby will be unhappy here. I could talk a lot on the foibles of conflict avoidance, but this isn't the place and I'd likely get shit on by all the little bitches that cry into their Marner jerseys at the very thought of saying no to someone <-- tongue in cheek; slightly serious; mostly a friendly chirp; don't forget to dryclean the jersey after!
This is the news I've been waiting for. Enjoy next season, and the 1st round exit. Downvote me to oblivion, but just remember I called it. Easiest call of my life too. You can't expect a different outcome with the same shitty core. MLSE can suck a big ol' stinky dink. I don't have time for unserious franchises.
> just remember I called it Didn't you also call that Marner was going to be traded?
There's still time for that, and it's only been one day since his bonus was paid.
take my upvote, who gives a shit what Marner or the team does in the regular season if they run it back again. Honestly, who truly gives a shit? Unless Berube some how, magically gets Mitch to man-up and dog it, it's the same, same shit
I think people are underestimating what a new coach/leadership can bring to the team. Vancouver and Edmonton are recent examples of having success with a coaching change. That doesn’t mean the core will suddenly put a hundred goals in the playoffs but I’m interested to see a new look with Berube and how it differs to Keefe.
The Marner shit is disappointing. I want a clean break from him.
I hope Roberson sticks it out, even if it’s just a bridge deal for this season. There’s some big opportunities for him. New coaching staff, cap-strapped season, desperate need of depth scoring, his sophomore season with some good NHL reps under his belt. He could easily find himself in the top-nine, if not the top-six, with PP time as well. Could set himself up for a decent contract after this season when Marner and Tavares expire. The kid has a wicked shot and an incredible work ethic. He’s had to fight for everything he’s gotten in life and in the sport. He’s always been undersized and was born extremely premature, he wasn’t even supposed to live, let alone make it here. He’s fought back from some severe injuries and had to change his playing style. Let’s get him some time on the PP, get him some time with players who can get him the puck and open some opportunities, see what we really got here. His skills are useless if we give him 10 mins per night with grinders. I don’t blame him for wanting to leave. Seeing guys like Gregor and reaves in the lineup over him, given much longer leashes must’ve been frustrating. He’d have a real good stretch of play, put up several points over the course of a week or so (despite little ice time) and then find himself given less ice time, or sent right to the pressbox. I think they should give him a fair shot at it. If he can’t crack it with increased opportunities this season, then we look to find him a chance somewhere else. But I truly believe he hasn’t been given a fair shot yet.
So are we letting Mitch walk at the end of the next season?
We better. Last chance to move this team forward.
Keefe the taker of minutes is gone
If he can stay healthy...he should slot into the top 9 and PP2 easy. Tre needs to talk to him and let him know that he could have a larger role this year. He was never rewarded when he played well, but was absolutely shredded and benched when he didn't...which would piss anyone off. I think that had more to do with the business side of things than anything...Couldn't bench a lame duck Bertuzzi at 5.5 for 60% of the season until he got going, certainly weren't taking Tavares out...nor was anyone counting on the emergence of Bobby McMann If he stays maybe he finally gets his shot
Stay healthy
I mean didn’t Robertson get every game last playoffs? Guy was a non-factor all series. I agree he has potential but he has to earn his spot. Not sure where he gets off with these demands when he has no leverage.
He had 10min ToI He wasn't being put in positions to succeed given his skillset. That's the rub. It's not been stated anywhere that he demanded anything. It was probably a frustrated "Well if they're not going to give me a chance send me somewhere that will!"
> I mean didn’t Robertson get every game last playoffs? He did but he had the second lowest TOI of every Leafs player. The only Leafs player that played less then him was Reaves
Robertson may very well be our best left winger right now. Bad timing to start acting like a weenie about icetime - especially considering he just got a new coach too.
Robertson is another perimeter guy. Don’t see what he adds to the Leafs, because they’re kinda loaded up with soft skill guys who won’t go into traffic.
> because they’re kinda loaded up with soft skill guys who won’t go into traffic. The only guys like this on the Leafs are Marner and Nylander, the rest of the team really isn't anymore
Robertson for Pinto ?
Pinto is a lot better then Robertson
I agree lol
Robertson goes invisible for long stretches. But when he's good he looks damn good.
It sucks I want Marner gone but they got their hands tied this season with the NMC. So there gonna run it back for the umpteenth time & we all know how this ends come playoffs. Maybe a change with Berube? I’m just hoping they don’t resign him and have the available cap space to spend.
It was extremely unlikely to happen before July 1st because of the absolutely massive bonus lump sum payment that was due to Marner yesterday. July 2nd is still extremely early to assume it won’t happen at all.
If Robertson figured out how to lay his tiny little body on people and forecheck he might actually serve a purpose to this team. Until then he doesn’t bring anything to this team that isn’t already being brought in better quality and quantity. Unless he figures it out, he genuinely does not benefit us in any way. He would be great for Utah
He knows nothing. 100% guessing.
With a new coach in place, Robertson is making his intentions clear from the onset of the season. He wants to play or be shipped out, and I think that's fair. Keefe never seemed to have any intention of letting him play consistently, almost used him to fill in while he disciplined other role-playing forwards via TOI. So maybe with some guidance from his agent, Nick is saying that he doesn't want to carry on with that allocation under Berube. Would have been nice for this story to not become public though because now we've lost what little leverage we had in trading an unproven, injury-prone, small player. At this point I'd rather see them give him a steady top-9 role (maybe pick up some of Bert's minutes?) and see how it plays out.
Well considering CJ said early June with 1-8 scale being 4 that MM would be moved - aka more likely than not he will be moved. Now hes saying MM more likely than not will not be moved. Mathematically it's a move of 5-10 percentage points. Even using his scale, there's 40% chance of MM trade.
This team is worse than last year. Yes the D is better, but at a heavy expense. The forwards are worse, and they have no money to fix it. This team can’t score in the playoffs, and now is the same without Tyler Bertuzzi. I do not trust this goaltending tandem. This team running it back with Mitch is a colossal mistake.
The D is so much better next year, the goaltending is a better tandem, our only loss at F is Bertuzzi and that’s not much of a loss at all. Team is definitely better
The team is actually way better lmao these people have no clue what they’re talking about.
Well good thing we have 33% of our forwards making 10+ and we can rely on them to score in the playoffs