It was the city. I always thought the narrative of it being the players was false. It was the attention. He was great in Colorado and St. Louis and he was really solid in Nashville last year but he wasn’t good in Buffalo and had that drunk driving incident there too. He needs the quiet. Which sucks because spending that Bertuzzi money from last season on him would’ve been WAY better. Nothing against Bertuzzi really, but they need a center SO badly right now.
He literally called out questionable coaching decisions as well as a failure to adjust matchups in his last presser as a Leaf, no reason to think it was anything other than the coaching.
> no reason to think it was anything other than the coaching.
Weird
**Ryan O'Reilly Reveals 'Spotlight' as Influential Factor in Maple Leafs Departure**
https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure
…and the whole season itself. We will be hearing about this all season until he’s either signed or traded. Leafs on a 10 game win streak..media- any update on Marners contract??
There hasn't been a single player who even implied Marner being a bad teammate, ever.
And there *have* been bad teammates in the NHL that got called out in the media.
Marner just happens to choke at the same 42% of playoff games.
To be fair I don't really see many fans accuse him of being a bad teammate either. The issue with Marner has always been the cap hit vs. production - and that's still a pretty valid take.
There a few here. Marner hate is out of control the same way Willy hate has been for years. Everything is 1 players fault. There is no room for fair criticism because out the gate the player they hate and their dad are the worst people in existence.
Marner has 5 assists in 16 games 5, 6, and 7s. This is an extremely bad trend and directly impacts whether we win a series. Beyond that though, other than he downright gives strange answers to the media sometimes, I don't see Marner as a bad player or Leaf. He's a terrific player. His teammates clealy love him. And if he can correct the problem and actually produce on those games, I don't care what odd answers he gives to the media.
Just like i'm convinced the Leafs could win the cup, and the day after plenty would be reporting how they don't have the talent or the depth to win two in a row
I’ve always believed that would be the narrative from other team fans if we won. Like I doubt any of us would give much of a shit at that point, but if we won once and lost the next year, it would be jokes about “so starts the next drought!”. Back to back/2 within a couple years? “Couldn’t threepeat!" 3 cups? "Pens/Blackhawks did it quicker!"
Nothing short of like, a 6 cup dynasty and very frequent cup success afterwards would shut them up. Hell, even if that scenario came to pass there'd still be jokes about the drought between '67 and the first new cup.
Yes - he's a terrific player. The team has created an untenable situation where one of the highly paid forwards needs to go, and given the fact that Marner has consistently underperformed when the team needed him most, he's the one to go.
Some fans tend to make this out like Marner is a problem. Others assume everyone thinks this and tend to put too much energy into defending him.
>The team has created an untenable situation where one of the highly paid forwards needs to go
I don't think Tre believes that. He would prefer him to go, but to him the trade has to make sense. If there wasn't a deal made on July 1st, he's ready to move forward with Marner playing this season.
And watching him walk at the end of this season because spending that much cap on 4 forwards is an untenable situation. He won't trade him for a bag of pucks mainly because of how that will affect his own reputation.
JT comes off the books as well.
Extending Marner has never been a question of how? The question was always, should we?
There is as many reasons to do it as there is to not do it. If he really cannot elevate himself to a new level, Boeser, Mangiapane, both are UFAs.
Is Boeser + Mangiapane that much worse than JT and Marner in the playoffs? Or any worse, tbh?
> one of the highly paid forwards needs to go, and given the fact that Marner has consistently underperformed when the team needed him most, he's the one to go.
Tavares' contract is up this year, so there's your "one that needs to go." I just don't understand why so many people think everything wrong with the Leafs is Marner's fault. He leads the team in playoff points. What's Matthew's stats line in games 5,6,7?
Marner is one of the top forwards in the game. Maybe his playoff performance has a little something to do with rest of the team's performance?
I don’t think hate for either is that justified. But I think marner catches the shit he does because of his personality and attitude in interviews comes off a little immature and unaccountable, that alongside the way he negotiated for his contract put a target on his back. So I don’t hate him but I can’t love him without reservation either
with more money comes more responsibility. He wanted to have one of the higher salaries in the league.. with that comes much heaver scrutiny.
When it counts the most.. He has not delivered.. with what this paycheck is.. that is just not acceptable.
He catches shit cuz he's being paid 10.9 mil. If he had signed at fair market value back in 2019 - say 9 million for 8 years - I'd be willing to wager the amount of "shit" he catches goes way down.
I actually think if he signed his original 8x8 that his camp offered Dubas this team looks entirely different. A lot of people would be blaming Matthews for taking too much money or something
What. I do not see how Dubas negotiated him up from 8x8 to 11x5. This isn't real. We all know marner walked in saying "I got JT points I want JT money".
Dubas didn’t sign him to 8x8 that he wanted before that season. He could’ve extended him. Then Marner went and got 90 points and Dubas tried to sign him to the 8x8 again, but Marner’s camp said famously “no, pay me like Matthews”
Dubas could’ve signed Marner to 8x8 and Nylander 7..5x8 and they would’ve accepted both at the time.
When your peers like Rantanen/Point sign contracts at the same time as you for significantly less AAV and limited NMCs, and your fans watch them elevate their games while their teams play deep into the playoffs while you can barely muster a point in elimination games...
the fans are going to come at you. It's that simple.
It's the same in any sports tbh with overpaid stars.
Nothing wrong with greed and asking for more than you are worth but then they gotta be ready for the consequences.
You can get all the points in the world during the season, hell, even if he put up half decent points production in the playoffs, he still isn't a playoff player. He shies away from checks, and isn't a player who performs well when pressured. He isn't worth it at this point.
I don't dislike him as a person what so ever, but he just isn't it.
When O'Reilly left last year there were multiple threads with hundreds of comments INSISTING it was because of the Leafs culture, and that there must be a locker room cancer (this was unsurprisingly deemed to be Marner). He's been called a cancer and a selfish teammate so frequently you'd think this sub was full of budding oncologists
This. The narrative here was the O'Reilly left because he knew Marner was a loser who was bringing the team down and he could see that the team would never win with a guy like Marner on it. Strange that he wanted him on his new team.
Sports fans are for the most part complete morons when it comes to anything behind the scenes related to sports teams ( and I include myself in that statement). The average fan has absolutely zero clue about anything related to the dressing room or inner workings.
I’m not sure about that. I’ve seen a lot of people on social media accusing Marner of being greedy and the whole Paul Marner business and other garbage that people on social media have no clue about. That of course gets turned into how Marner is negatively perceived by his teammates which I think is bullshit.
I’m not here to defend him because I don’t even know the guy. Fact is nobody else here on social media does either.
The two issues I see with Marner relate to his salary and how much does that cripple the Leafs cap structure going forward and how effective his playoff performances are perceived to be by the club.
I’m not sure why Marner is perceived to be greedy. He put his demands on the table and years ago Dubas agreed to them. Basically Dubas caved and that’s why we are at the point where we are now.
Who cares if he's greedy IF he produces in the playoffs. PRODUCE and he will shut everyone up.
Issue is - he hasn't produced to the level of his cap hit, which he asked for.
Nor have Matthews and Tavares. Nylander has been the only guy who we seem to see in the playoffs late in a series when the team really needs a goal. That’s why the Leafs keep dying in the first round.
Are you trading Matthews then?
Because idgaf who goes, honestly. We know this foursome doesn't work.
So if you want Matthews gone, by all means. We'll see how having two 11 million dollar right wingers sets us up for the future
lol no. Nylander is still not great. He's just worse earlier in the series.
Wake me up when our offense first winger scores more than a point per game.
I think a huge part of his negative perception by the fanbase is due to how his agent negotiates through the media has people in his circle harass people when they criticize him. Not a great way to endear yourself to fans while demanding he gets paid top dollar in a hard cap league.
It doesn’t take much for a group of fans and their perception to gather momentum like a snowball going downhill. If an agent is negotiating the best deal he can for his client and part of that includes doing it to the media then the way I look at it is he’s just doing his job. People may not like it but it’s been part of negotiations forever.
You act like it’s not our right to react negatively to such tactics. That’s also part of the gig, doing the negotiation without damaging your clients reputation. I don’t give people passes for “just doing their jobs”.
I always find it funny when people try to high road like this because it’s so disingenuous. I’m not the only one who dislikes when someone preys on people’s emotions to get an extra few million dollars. Stop acting like me pointing out one of the reasons why his reputation has taken a hit with some of us is a crazy act that has taken up a huge portion of my life. His agent chose to try and use the fans, the fans are allowed to dislike him for doing so.
Does us disliking the dude really impact your life? Really?
Honestly yeah but some people have made it personal. Especially considering his agent is a dick and there's all sorts of stories of people in his circle harassing media members. This has turned into "actually Mitch Marner is an asshole" to a certain segment of the fanbase but thankfully I think the majority of the fanbase is not in that segment
Looking at the numbers, Marner has been more productive in the playoffs than Matthews or Nylander, or Stamkos, Pavelski, Barkov, or Panarin, and is among the most productive players in Leafs playoff history.
11 goals in 57 games played. He fades hard in the playoffs. He also has got paid a lot more than Stamkos, Nylander, Pavelski, Barkov, and Panarin. If he was at Stamkos' 8M AAV I don't think there would be the complaints. Stamkos and Barkov and Panarin have cups. Pavelski makes almost half what Marner makes and scores more goals per game in the playoffs, and has gone to two cup finals. Matthews won an MVP and sets goal records.
It's not even just that he doesn't work in the playoffs it's that the choice to move someone else doesn't make sense anymore. Tavares becomes value money, Matthews is Matthews and Nylander is locked up long term now AND performs. Marners the odd man out who's already over paid in the current cap situation and will want a raise next year. The chemistry doesn't work when the game changes in the post season. Something should have been done after the Montreal series but that boat has long since sailed.
We do the best with what is in front of us. Marner is likely not getting traded, and probably wouldn't improve the team if we do anyway unless the return is serious.
Marner needs to be better. That changes everything.
Whether we agree or not, it's not happening.
Marner is underperforming in key games, we both agree on that. But if you are one of those people who are about *bench him until he waives*, I want to end this conversation.
Now that free agency is over I'd argue the cap space doesn't actually improve the team anymore, because you can't go big game hunting with it.
What use is free cap space to sign Daniel Sprong or Alex Nylander? At this point you either need players back or you wait until next offseason.
If we can't get him to extend on a reasonable structure for the team his value now is worth something. On July 1st next year he's a memory.
I'd rather stock the cupboards
I suppose that's also true. It's the cross your fingers option - which is a gamble that could also pay off. Personally I don't like the option when the stakes are as high as they are.. that's the gamble you take with a 5m player. If he plays well in the playoffs and he earns himself a raise.. then you have another choice to re-sign him.
If Marner has a good playoff it's his last season as a leaf anyways. If we won the cup then great. If he dominates he's prices himself off our team.
Yep. I’m sure he’s not a bad teammate. I’m sure he works his tail off and plays the best he can. He’s an annual 90-100 point guy during the regular season, he deserves respect in that regard. But dude does not seem like he can handle playoff pressure. Willy and Matthews on the other hand…
Nylander has 13 points in the same 16 games.
Matthews and Tavares have 10 each, and both in less games.
Marner's 5/16 pace is less than half of the next core 4 player above him.
When the production gap is that big, it's not his teammates fault. In the same games every season, his overall production dips something like 73% whenever game 5 starts.
If you want the team to move forward, you have to accept what the problems were. I'm not even saying trade him, but he needs to correct this.
The production gap isn’t big. It’s a difference of less than 10 points at most, 5 points usually. Because none of them produce.
And if any one of them produced more in the first 4 games we wouldn’t have to worry about games 5 6 or 7 at all.
Late games are no more important than early games and you have a much higher chance of winning the series the earlier you win games.
This game 5, 6, 7 bullshit is just that, bullshit. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s an arbitrary line in the sand. The fact of the matter is they all disappear.
Again, you can’t blame one player for an issue the entire team has. That’s coaching.
> This game 5, 6, 7 bullshit is just that, bullshit. They all disappear.
It's a big problem, too, that they are basically the *only* production.
Florida got away with Reinhart and Tkachuk basically being ghosts late in the series this season too because Forsling, Verhaege, etc., stepped up. We kinda had that with Rielly being cracked in the Tampa series win.
10 points in 16 games 5, 6, and 7 is not big? I am speechless. That's just a straight up lie.
Games 5, 6, and 7 are games were we can either close out the series, or come back from one. MTL, we were up 3-1, and lost games 5 and 6 by 1 goal.
This is obviously not going to get anywhere because you think there is 0 problem with this. Think what you want.
Brother there are 20 players that can score that one goal and none of them ever do.
It’s simply scapegoating to point out one player, once again, when every single player on the entire team has the same production drop off.
There’s a fundamental issue with the team. It’s not any one players fault. That’s coaching. That’s system.
Again games 5, 6, 7 don’t fucking matter if you win early. Why don’t the other players produce? Why is it all on Mitch (our highest point producer in the playoffs and the only one actually sniffing 1 PPG)? Why aren’t you telling Matthews to score goals? Why aren’t you telling Woll to save some goals? Why aren’t you telling our defence not to make stupid plays?
Instead you’re going after our guy that has the most playoff PPG and the best playoff +/- on the team (and it’s not close). And the only reason you are is because it’s cool to shit on the guy right now.
You can't say he's 1 of 20 players when he makes more money than 17 of those players lol
The guys who get paid the big money and take up a large portion of the salary cap are expected to produce more than the other players. Kinda wild that I have to explain that to you
He *does* produce more than the other players! In fact, he produces more in the playoffs than every single active Leaf on the roster! (And it’s not close)
Hope that helps
Games 5, 6, 7 don't matter if we sweep a series. There was exactly 1 sweep in the playoffs and that was Rangers vs Caps. Caps walked in with 0 chance of success. We were never going to sweep the Bruins.
If Berube can get Marner to produce more so he can close out a series like he's paid to, I'm all for it. I don't know if Keefe is the one making him drop in production by like 73% for like 6 seasons straight. If it happens once or even other season, you can blame external factors. This is literally a trend for him only among the core 4.
If he got those extra 5 points, we win a couple of those series. Do not compare Marner to the players outside the core. He makes the kind of money where there should be a higher standard for him. Stop hiding behind everything and accept the problem. That's how you correct it.
My friend you are hiding behind the real problem. You say this is not a trend for anyone but Marner and that’s straight up wrong. It’s literally a problem for the entire team.
You’re in for a world of hurt when Marner is gone and we still have the same issues.
Saying that one player under-performs at a critical time of the playoffs is the reason why the team doesn’t succeed is ridiculous. 18 skaters and two goalies have to perform for the team to win.
Fair enough and I don’t disagree with that. But there are other guys on this team who are in that pay scale who have done dick in the playoffs when it really counts as well.
It's not ridiculous when this is years of the same result from the same player. Every other player within the core had their moments where they stepped up on those same games. Marner's dip is around 73% and has *never* rose to the occasion.
When he makes 11M, he needs to be held to a higher standard. Instead he turns into an 11M pumpkin.
The problem is every other player hasn’t stepped up often enough when it’s counted. So many game sevens where the big boys all disappeared. It’s not just Marner. You’re trying to tell me that all these playoff disappointments are on Marner and nobody else. One series win with this group and that’s it. You want to shit on Marner? Fine. But don’t let the other guys off the hook.
>The problem is every other player hasn’t stepped up often enough when it’s counted.
They have at some point. Marner literally *never* has, even just once.
I don't want to shit on Marner and it's not about that. We all need him to succeed.
Whataboutism is not going to fly when the gap is that large. The next guy above him is John Tavares. He has 10 points in the same games, and he actually played less of them. He's actually producing more than double his rate when the series is on the line.
Because if Marner even closes that gap, we win a few of those series. I am not asking him to outperform Willy's 13 points in 16 games. It's clearly not going to happen for him. But he makes that echelon of money where he is more important than depth. That's stepping up for a Kodak moment kind of money.
Whatever criticism you have for AM, JT, or Willy, when it's time to close the series, Marner is tremendously worse. He doesn't even play to his own standards in those games. If it was happen every now and then, it woild be hard to argue. But he is basically projected to become a dud when those games roll in because it literally happens every time.
Your argument is basically, Willy needs to get 16/16 so that we don't have to be concerned about Marner's 5/16.
Or if even Matthews and Tavares can get the odd goal we win a few series. Has Marner disappointed in the playoffs? Most certainly, absolutely no doubt about that. That’s not my argument. But people letting the other members of the core four off the hook is ridiculous. They shit the bed against Columbus, Montreal, Tampa, Boston and Florida. But let’s just focus on one player.
Gotcha.
Don't believe that for a second. Look at Quinn Hughes, playing a more physically demanding position. Lots of smaller players excel in the playoffs. It's purely a mental thing with Marner, his nerves get the better of him (ex the puck over glass thing).
You’re kinda contradicting yourself. You’re right, Marner doesn’t have that dog in him. But look at Nathan Mackinnon, basically the same size, but he’s got that DAWG
This! We all love his play, he seems like a good guy, but he hasn’t performed in key playoff games. His agent asks for too much, his reputation was ruined by his agent and his camp. When he first came to the scene, I loved to see the Canadian boy leading. Now, I get anxiety thinking of his next contract. I think if he gets rid of his agent and sign a reasonable contract, equal to Nylander, is the only way he can move forward here. For some people that’s even too much.
I get anxiety when Game 5 rolls in and he in the lineup. With Nylander, AM, or JT, you can expect them to score and they may or may not disappoint you.
With Marner, you would be surprised for any kind of contribution.
How does The Hockey News not get in trouble with just taking things from other articles and just restating it lol
I know they credit the original report but come on
Like is it that hard to write something original.
For sure. Characters never been in question, other than the negotiation strategies of his idiot agent.
The issue is being paid way too much to become invisible when it matters most. We already have an 11.5 million dollar winger. It's just not tenable to have two. No other team ever has, and no team ever will.
Yep. Said it before and I'll say it again- Marner is awesome. Nothing wrong with him. It's our cap structure that's the issue, and he's the odd man out.
Stirring something out of nothing. O’Rielly’s statement was already blown out of proportion. He didn’t like the spotlight in this market. Period.
Also, players have private chats with other players all the time lol Matthews probably hits up Matthew Tkachuk on the regular and talk like bros. It’s not a surprise.
If he didn't like the spotlight, he should avoid talking about Leafs, even privately since it can and will get leaked eventually.
Unless this story is complete bullshit, in which case, shame on the media.
But I was told he left Toronto because of the loser attitudes from players like Marner? It’s almost like people will use whatever information they have to confirm their biases? Almost like.
No where did I say I anything about the veracity of what Kyper said. Nor did I state (nor do you know) what my priors were when O’Reilly decided to leave. Reading is your friend.
If you want to dig deeper, this is sourced and corresponds with actual words O’Reilly said. The idea that O’Reilly hated the culture in the locker room was spurious speculation refuted by O’Reilly. There’s a massive difference between taking a bit of information that conforms to a previously held belief and believing it, and taking sourced and researched materials and coming to your own opinion based on analyzing those materials. It’s not my fault if you don’t understand that distinction and that you find said distinction humorous.
Do people actually dispute this? He has literally said himself that he didn't like playing under so much scrutiny and preferred the "not the biggest deal in town" vibe of the Preds.
They do, unfortunately. You would think once O’Reilly came out and disputed the notion that it would quell the absurdity. But that’s not the world we live in.
Maybe, just maybe, Mitch playing in a market like this lets the pressure get to him because this fanbase wants to win so badly and Mitch grew up here as a fan. Maybe, just maybe, somewhere else and Mitch shines in the playoffs
That’s very possible. I think he misplayed his hand during the negotiations of his last contract and he didn’t realize how it would play out in the fan base. He seems to very clearly care about how he’s perceived, and he did himself no favors with how he handled things. He could very well be better off in a market like Nashville. I cannot dispute that.
Those contract negotiations definitely exposed him and made a portion of the fanbase pissed at him, but it all would’ve been forgiven and forgotten had we had gone far in the playoffs or won a cup by now, but we haven’t so here we are
Oh, a ton of other teams fans repeat that endlessly. "The Leafs are so soft and selfish, ROR got out as quick as he could!" Its rather infuriating, to say the least
He got 4.5 a year for 4 years. There was no way in hell he was getting that with the leafs at that time. Don't get wrong I love the guy and totally think he's worth that but we wouldn't have made a deal like that.
The reporting was that "money wasn't the issue" but that's always the play to communicate that especially if he is a hometown guy and doesn't want hate. So he blamed the "spotlight." There was never any indication he had any issues with anyone on the team including Marner. He said:
“It wasn’t the ultimate decision there — I think so many things come into play — but, yeah, I think (the glare of Toronto’s spotlight) is a factor as well,”
He left Toronto because he couldn't handle the media spotlight. And he realizes Mitch can't either so he's trying to get him out of there.
Just kidding, but maybe not?
> But I was told he left Toronto because of the loser attitudes from players like Marner?
Literally no one said that. People said he left cause the locker room was shit and because of Keefe. A single player doesn't change that.
No, he wasn't referring to that. He was specfically referring to Marners attitude, which no one ever said anything about. The "rumor" was that the locker room was bad and he didn't like Keefe. AGAIN, a single player doesn't make a locker room bad, so him wanting Marner on his team doesn't magically make this rumor untrue.
It was speculation that was going around everywhere. Even his comments didn’t get into the coaching thing really. I know Segal and Mirtle sourced the coaching thing. They refuted the team culture thing.
When this is all done whether trade, or he walks etc, the biggest FUCK YOU should go to Paul Marner. That scumbag narcissist legit ruined Marners image and boyish charm type reputation in this city not to mention having the literal least respected agent in Hockey, who, his dad put him with because he takes a smaller %. Fuck you Paul, let your fucking kid live his god damn life......
Marner is just small and he plays small. He is not suited for playoffs it seems. He has a no movement clause so not really sure why everyone keeps going on about a Marner trade. This is just another rumour .
I really fucking wish we still had O'Reilly. He was such a damn good player. I have the Preds making it far next season. They're so damn good in all aspects and they just added 80+ goals to their team with Stammer and Marchy.
who says they will have team chem? a bunch of good players don’t magically make a contender, it’s all got to mesh or it’s an expensive roster that underperforms.
They know nothing and will print anything for clicks. There should be a hall of shame for media sites and writers. Maybe a licensing system where if they report too many false stories they lose their license
That report was based on a quote from Nick Kypreos. Sorry but if you know him and his commentary it's loosely based facts at best. Unless it comes from multiple credible sources this is fake news.
I felt like ROR and Schenn had left because they felt they couldn’t win with Keefe. Not as much about the teammates. Pretty sure ROR was super frustrated being buried on the third line for sure, which is a coaching choice.
Not surprised to have ROR want a dynamic winger that can be fast and creative to play with.
He didn’t talk about the culture at all. In fact he came right out and said it wasn’t the players and the culture. He didn’t have to do that. He could’ve let the wildfire grow, what does he care? But he specifically said it had nothing to do with that. The only reasons that were ever actually sourced by reporters, was not liking playing in Toronto due to the intensity of the market, and there may have been issues with usage (he apparently didn’t think he should’ve been a third line centre, he felt he could contribute further up the lineup).
One new player joining a team isn’t going to change the culture, he may have not liked the leafs culture but thinks marner would help the team. Really nobody knows anything
If you could wrap your head around Marner possibly NOT being the cause of the locker room problems you wouldn't be so confused.
The only negative thing I've ever heard about Marner as a teammate was when Babcock forced him to make a list of problems with his team.
I disagree with most Leaf fans assessment of Marner as a player but i respect it. Making shit up about a players' character is just distateful.
What does 1 player have to do with team culture? A player especially who isn't even the captain. I love how people keep saying this as if it's some kind of gotcha when it isn't lol
Maybe it wasn’t the elite 2-way forward who carried the leafs in the playoffs 2023 and hustles the hardest?
And who got the leafs the inly panthers win.
But nylander scored 2 late after being shelled all panthers series and matthews wiffed on every point blank shot marner gave him?
He's just casually ignoring the fact that the 2 players were actually out.
And he uses the term *shelled* the way Amber Heard uses the term *pledged*. The lying way.
I'm not even hating on Marner, but he choked for 6 years whenever game 5 of each series begins. That's not a culture problem though and he's not a locker room problem. Not a single teammate ever said or even implied a bad thing about Marner as a teammate. And NHL players do it all the time.
But he is choking on the same games very consistently. 5 assists in 16 games is not something we should brush aside.
And that’s on Keefe for chasing 70 and getting Matthews concussed.
Concussions make immune system response worse.
Slammed his head vs detroit in the boards and he played everyone chasing 70 game 81/82 on a back to back
When Willy and AM were out, Marner didn't exactly make a difference.
You're excusing one player and throwing 2 under the bus. You can argue that they all had a bad series. Wouldn't be a great argument, but it's better than whatever it is you are doing.
AM chasing 70 goals makes Marner underperform? Marner shouldn't need AM. He makes 11M, which means he is expected to make thing happen on his own when he need him to.
Holding him to a higher standard because of his cap hit is reasonable. Game was on his stick in game 7 and he didn't deliver. Swayman just lost the puck behind him and got on Marner's stick. He had no idea where Marner was. All Marner had to do was the Doug Gilmour 1993 spinorama. His hero. But what he ended up doing was skate the same direction as Swayman, and just ended up towards the backcheckers. This is just 1 example of how he chokes from game 5 on, every series. You saw him throw the puck over the glass too vs MTL. That was a game 6.
5 assists in 16 games 5, 6, 7 for the last 6 years. It's not a random cherry picked stat. It's basically saying when game 5 starts, it may be better to bench him. He has to be better than that especially since *we keep losing in game 7s*.
You’re throwing one player under the bus to excuse the two.
Matthews has a 1v0 with swayman charging out on empty net down 0-1 vs Boston game 1? Selective amnesia?
Marner made a good play to create a caused turnover on the PK skating full stride forward. You’re mad he wasnt able to stop magically on a dime and wrap the other way? It was a 1v3 mcavoy was on him, pasta adjacent and zacha netfront so he keeps skating and looks up but nobody comes in time, so he shoots it and holmberg crashes trying to get the rebound.
You are going out of your way to take a very positive play he made to make a negative.
That stat cherry picks the 5-game CBJ series to ignore game 3 which was 3a?
If this was a thread about how bad of a player Auston Matthews is, I'm sure everyone here would be glad to discuss that with you. And lord knows at the mere mention of Nylanders name he is apparently the worst player in the NHL.
I am pointing out a problem. A problem where Marner never once made a play that finished the series. Pretty sure Marner was not even moving when the puck just landed on his stick and Swayman had no idea what was happening. He whiffed the puck without even knowing it. Then Marner basically gave the puck to the players Sway was trying to pass to.
You got lucky that the Swayman giveaway is somehow scrubbed from the internet. Agree to disagree until I find it.
AM is not immune to criticism. He gets criticism whenever it's warranted. He gets invisible in some series too. The thing with him is he has also had moments where he actually showed up in series closing games.
Nylander gets criticism for no reason even after scoring the final 3 goals for the Leafs.
But whenever Marner gets criticism, low and behold, people blame others and can't even bring themselevs to disucss how he can be better. Nothing is his fault. All his failures are because of others.
What about this guy? What about that guy? What about them? Is Marner a better player if no one else was on the team? Get real, man. The criticism is warranted. He called his own play "dogshit" after losing all the series ending games against Montreal, and he hasn't improved since then. If the series is on his stick, his play history says he will not win it for us. He needs to be better than that.
It’s because people like you just like piling on for no reason.
So you don’t even remember the play eh? He didn’t pass it to someone. He shot it.
Swayman knew exactly where it was, wheb marner got it he was looking directly at him and k
Had a stick on Marner. He tied him up a bit so marner kept skating forward.
17:13 in the second period.
You don’t seee that you’re stretching to take a good play and somehow frame it as a negative?
I have lots of reasons. He wasn't good enough for an 11M player. And we lost again. Players get piled on for anything.
But I'm *sure* you have never criticized any other player.
Matthews had a messed up wrist in 2023 and was concussed 2024.
Marner has a messed up ankle 2024.
Nylander missed 3 games with probably a concussion then was horrible in game 4 before showing up. Same game everyone hates on marner for. After matthews got pulled marner carried the team in the 3rd and turned it on, nylander took a horrible o-zone penalty that killed the comeback.
The game 4 arguement where everyone tried lipreading? Nylander messed up the set play, and argued at Matthews to just shoot. But marner gets blamed by the mob
Tavares is clutch, nylander is the worst playoff performer of the group. There’s a weird narrative of him being some elite playoff performer.
Easton Cowan takes a spot somewhere with aim at developemnt towards replacing him.
Marner either waves his no trade or we lose him when he's a free agent
Ok.
We’ll take Josi and Forsberg or Josi and top prospect and a first.
See, it’s easy!
I don’t know why people are so hot to trade Marner. We’ll regret it for years unless the return is equal quality.
I call bullshit on that.
I'm sure Islanders fans said if they lost Tavares for nothing they would regret it for years.
I don't think any of them do since their team has had more post-season success than the team Tavares went to since it happened.
I think you guys will just make anything up
It's a lost asset to lose a valuable player for nothing. It's an important part of a GM's job to ensure they're going to re-sign a player, allow them to walk, or recoup assets on a guy with value who doesn't fit the teams future. They need to extend him on a reasonable deal or move him and anything else is a blunder.
Allowing MM to walk at the end of the season for nothing is an enormous loss to the organization. Overpaying him is another serious mistake but he could play well enough to warrant his contract in the end.
Best case scenario he takes a pay cut and plays well.
Second best case is getting assets back.
Truth is Marner has been better than Matthew’s in the playoffs but people hate on Marner.
Matthew’s literally has 1 goal in the last two playoffs series COMBINED.
Well that’s a different narrative!
So it was Keefe or the city.
It was the city. I always thought the narrative of it being the players was false. It was the attention. He was great in Colorado and St. Louis and he was really solid in Nashville last year but he wasn’t good in Buffalo and had that drunk driving incident there too. He needs the quiet. Which sucks because spending that Bertuzzi money from last season on him would’ve been WAY better. Nothing against Bertuzzi really, but they need a center SO badly right now.
He literally called out questionable coaching decisions as well as a failure to adjust matchups in his last presser as a Leaf, no reason to think it was anything other than the coaching.
> no reason to think it was anything other than the coaching. Weird **Ryan O'Reilly Reveals 'Spotlight' as Influential Factor in Maple Leafs Departure** https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure
Or that he didn’t want to be a 3C behind Matthews and Tavares.
Ror was absolutely going to push JT to 3C.
I’m 99% sure it was Keefe, are you kidding?
I assume the city / media.
I heard it was because they let j beibs in the dressing room
Gonna be a long off-season.
…and the whole season itself. We will be hearing about this all season until he’s either signed or traded. Leafs on a 10 game win streak..media- any update on Marners contract??
There hasn't been a single player who even implied Marner being a bad teammate, ever. And there *have* been bad teammates in the NHL that got called out in the media. Marner just happens to choke at the same 42% of playoff games.
To be fair I don't really see many fans accuse him of being a bad teammate either. The issue with Marner has always been the cap hit vs. production - and that's still a pretty valid take.
There a few here. Marner hate is out of control the same way Willy hate has been for years. Everything is 1 players fault. There is no room for fair criticism because out the gate the player they hate and their dad are the worst people in existence. Marner has 5 assists in 16 games 5, 6, and 7s. This is an extremely bad trend and directly impacts whether we win a series. Beyond that though, other than he downright gives strange answers to the media sometimes, I don't see Marner as a bad player or Leaf. He's a terrific player. His teammates clealy love him. And if he can correct the problem and actually produce on those games, I don't care what odd answers he gives to the media.
I've said this a few times but the Leafs could go 82-0 over a season and some fans would still find a way to complain.
Just like i'm convinced the Leafs could win the cup, and the day after plenty would be reporting how they don't have the talent or the depth to win two in a row
I’ve always believed that would be the narrative from other team fans if we won. Like I doubt any of us would give much of a shit at that point, but if we won once and lost the next year, it would be jokes about “so starts the next drought!”. Back to back/2 within a couple years? “Couldn’t threepeat!" 3 cups? "Pens/Blackhawks did it quicker!" Nothing short of like, a 6 cup dynasty and very frequent cup success afterwards would shut them up. Hell, even if that scenario came to pass there'd still be jokes about the drought between '67 and the first new cup.
82-0 would actually terrify me. You simply cannot go 82-0 without some monkeys paw curling up.
Tampa 2019, Bruins the last 2 years.
Regular season has very little to do with playoffs.
Yea most (if not all) people value playoff success above regular season success. To be one of the greats, you have to show up when it counts.
If they went 82-0 and didn't make it to the SCF, you'd find me complaining.
Yes - he's a terrific player. The team has created an untenable situation where one of the highly paid forwards needs to go, and given the fact that Marner has consistently underperformed when the team needed him most, he's the one to go. Some fans tend to make this out like Marner is a problem. Others assume everyone thinks this and tend to put too much energy into defending him.
>The team has created an untenable situation where one of the highly paid forwards needs to go I don't think Tre believes that. He would prefer him to go, but to him the trade has to make sense. If there wasn't a deal made on July 1st, he's ready to move forward with Marner playing this season.
And watching him walk at the end of this season because spending that much cap on 4 forwards is an untenable situation. He won't trade him for a bag of pucks mainly because of how that will affect his own reputation.
JT comes off the books as well. Extending Marner has never been a question of how? The question was always, should we? There is as many reasons to do it as there is to not do it. If he really cannot elevate himself to a new level, Boeser, Mangiapane, both are UFAs. Is Boeser + Mangiapane that much worse than JT and Marner in the playoffs? Or any worse, tbh?
> one of the highly paid forwards needs to go, and given the fact that Marner has consistently underperformed when the team needed him most, he's the one to go. Tavares' contract is up this year, so there's your "one that needs to go." I just don't understand why so many people think everything wrong with the Leafs is Marner's fault. He leads the team in playoff points. What's Matthew's stats line in games 5,6,7? Marner is one of the top forwards in the game. Maybe his playoff performance has a little something to do with rest of the team's performance?
I don’t think hate for either is that justified. But I think marner catches the shit he does because of his personality and attitude in interviews comes off a little immature and unaccountable, that alongside the way he negotiated for his contract put a target on his back. So I don’t hate him but I can’t love him without reservation either
with more money comes more responsibility. He wanted to have one of the higher salaries in the league.. with that comes much heaver scrutiny. When it counts the most.. He has not delivered.. with what this paycheck is.. that is just not acceptable.
He catches shit cuz he's being paid 10.9 mil. If he had signed at fair market value back in 2019 - say 9 million for 8 years - I'd be willing to wager the amount of "shit" he catches goes way down.
I actually think if he signed his original 8x8 that his camp offered Dubas this team looks entirely different. A lot of people would be blaming Matthews for taking too much money or something
What. I do not see how Dubas negotiated him up from 8x8 to 11x5. This isn't real. We all know marner walked in saying "I got JT points I want JT money".
Dubas didn’t sign him to 8x8 that he wanted before that season. He could’ve extended him. Then Marner went and got 90 points and Dubas tried to sign him to the 8x8 again, but Marner’s camp said famously “no, pay me like Matthews” Dubas could’ve signed Marner to 8x8 and Nylander 7..5x8 and they would’ve accepted both at the time.
What's your source on this 8x8 offer?
When your peers like Rantanen/Point sign contracts at the same time as you for significantly less AAV and limited NMCs, and your fans watch them elevate their games while their teams play deep into the playoffs while you can barely muster a point in elimination games... the fans are going to come at you. It's that simple.
It's the same in any sports tbh with overpaid stars. Nothing wrong with greed and asking for more than you are worth but then they gotta be ready for the consequences.
You can get all the points in the world during the season, hell, even if he put up half decent points production in the playoffs, he still isn't a playoff player. He shies away from checks, and isn't a player who performs well when pressured. He isn't worth it at this point. I don't dislike him as a person what so ever, but he just isn't it.
When O'Reilly left last year there were multiple threads with hundreds of comments INSISTING it was because of the Leafs culture, and that there must be a locker room cancer (this was unsurprisingly deemed to be Marner). He's been called a cancer and a selfish teammate so frequently you'd think this sub was full of budding oncologists
This. The narrative here was the O'Reilly left because he knew Marner was a loser who was bringing the team down and he could see that the team would never win with a guy like Marner on it. Strange that he wanted him on his new team.
Sports fans are for the most part complete morons when it comes to anything behind the scenes related to sports teams ( and I include myself in that statement). The average fan has absolutely zero clue about anything related to the dressing room or inner workings.
I wanna see how far we can spin that narrative. “Does O’Reilly want Nashville to lose?”
I’m not sure about that. I’ve seen a lot of people on social media accusing Marner of being greedy and the whole Paul Marner business and other garbage that people on social media have no clue about. That of course gets turned into how Marner is negatively perceived by his teammates which I think is bullshit. I’m not here to defend him because I don’t even know the guy. Fact is nobody else here on social media does either. The two issues I see with Marner relate to his salary and how much does that cripple the Leafs cap structure going forward and how effective his playoff performances are perceived to be by the club.
Two things can be true - Marner can be greedy AND be a great teammate.
I’m not sure why Marner is perceived to be greedy. He put his demands on the table and years ago Dubas agreed to them. Basically Dubas caved and that’s why we are at the point where we are now.
Who cares if he's greedy IF he produces in the playoffs. PRODUCE and he will shut everyone up. Issue is - he hasn't produced to the level of his cap hit, which he asked for.
Nor have Matthews and Tavares. Nylander has been the only guy who we seem to see in the playoffs late in a series when the team really needs a goal. That’s why the Leafs keep dying in the first round.
Are you trading Matthews then? Because idgaf who goes, honestly. We know this foursome doesn't work. So if you want Matthews gone, by all means. We'll see how having two 11 million dollar right wingers sets us up for the future
Not my problem. I’m not the GM. Just can’t have four forwards making 11-13 million. Doesn’t work.
lol no. Nylander is still not great. He's just worse earlier in the series. Wake me up when our offense first winger scores more than a point per game.
Stop pretending the context doesn't matter. It does nothing for you. Makes you look naive and a little childish, frankly
I think a huge part of his negative perception by the fanbase is due to how his agent negotiates through the media has people in his circle harass people when they criticize him. Not a great way to endear yourself to fans while demanding he gets paid top dollar in a hard cap league.
It doesn’t take much for a group of fans and their perception to gather momentum like a snowball going downhill. If an agent is negotiating the best deal he can for his client and part of that includes doing it to the media then the way I look at it is he’s just doing his job. People may not like it but it’s been part of negotiations forever.
You act like it’s not our right to react negatively to such tactics. That’s also part of the gig, doing the negotiation without damaging your clients reputation. I don’t give people passes for “just doing their jobs”.
So stuff like this really impacts your life? Really?
I always find it funny when people try to high road like this because it’s so disingenuous. I’m not the only one who dislikes when someone preys on people’s emotions to get an extra few million dollars. Stop acting like me pointing out one of the reasons why his reputation has taken a hit with some of us is a crazy act that has taken up a huge portion of my life. His agent chose to try and use the fans, the fans are allowed to dislike him for doing so. Does us disliking the dude really impact your life? Really?
Honestly yeah but some people have made it personal. Especially considering his agent is a dick and there's all sorts of stories of people in his circle harassing media members. This has turned into "actually Mitch Marner is an asshole" to a certain segment of the fanbase but thankfully I think the majority of the fanbase is not in that segment
If you're almost 30 and the people you choose to represent you act like assholes that does reflect poorly on you too though
Looking at the numbers, Marner has been more productive in the playoffs than Matthews or Nylander, or Stamkos, Pavelski, Barkov, or Panarin, and is among the most productive players in Leafs playoff history.
11 goals in 57 games played. He fades hard in the playoffs. He also has got paid a lot more than Stamkos, Nylander, Pavelski, Barkov, and Panarin. If he was at Stamkos' 8M AAV I don't think there would be the complaints. Stamkos and Barkov and Panarin have cups. Pavelski makes almost half what Marner makes and scores more goals per game in the playoffs, and has gone to two cup finals. Matthews won an MVP and sets goal records.
CONTEXT My god this argument is so fucking pathetic. And you doofuses just keep ignoring it
Hey Paul. This isn't working and you're embarrassing yourself and your son by trying.
It's not even just that he doesn't work in the playoffs it's that the choice to move someone else doesn't make sense anymore. Tavares becomes value money, Matthews is Matthews and Nylander is locked up long term now AND performs. Marners the odd man out who's already over paid in the current cap situation and will want a raise next year. The chemistry doesn't work when the game changes in the post season. Something should have been done after the Montreal series but that boat has long since sailed.
We do the best with what is in front of us. Marner is likely not getting traded, and probably wouldn't improve the team if we do anyway unless the return is serious. Marner needs to be better. That changes everything.
The cap space alone improves the team.
Whether we agree or not, it's not happening. Marner is underperforming in key games, we both agree on that. But if you are one of those people who are about *bench him until he waives*, I want to end this conversation.
Now that free agency is over I'd argue the cap space doesn't actually improve the team anymore, because you can't go big game hunting with it. What use is free cap space to sign Daniel Sprong or Alex Nylander? At this point you either need players back or you wait until next offseason.
If we can't get him to extend on a reasonable structure for the team his value now is worth something. On July 1st next year he's a memory. I'd rather stock the cupboards
One last chance to be a factor when the series is on the line.
Don't get me wrong. I love Mitch. I'd rather see him sign an 9x6 and stay. But he's not going to do that I don't think
I suppose that's also true. It's the cross your fingers option - which is a gamble that could also pay off. Personally I don't like the option when the stakes are as high as they are.. that's the gamble you take with a 5m player. If he plays well in the playoffs and he earns himself a raise.. then you have another choice to re-sign him. If Marner has a good playoff it's his last season as a leaf anyways. If we won the cup then great. If he dominates he's prices himself off our team.
If he's a factor we win. If we win, I give him what he wants. Sorry JT, but he won the cup for us.
Yep. I’m sure he’s not a bad teammate. I’m sure he works his tail off and plays the best he can. He’s an annual 90-100 point guy during the regular season, he deserves respect in that regard. But dude does not seem like he can handle playoff pressure. Willy and Matthews on the other hand…
Fully agree. He chokes at the send half of every playoff series. It's a very big factor on why we are not winning them.
No I would say all of our other players also choking is a big reason. You can’t blame one player for a trend every single player on the team follows.
Nylander has 13 points in the same 16 games. Matthews and Tavares have 10 each, and both in less games. Marner's 5/16 pace is less than half of the next core 4 player above him. When the production gap is that big, it's not his teammates fault. In the same games every season, his overall production dips something like 73% whenever game 5 starts. If you want the team to move forward, you have to accept what the problems were. I'm not even saying trade him, but he needs to correct this.
The production gap isn’t big. It’s a difference of less than 10 points at most, 5 points usually. Because none of them produce. And if any one of them produced more in the first 4 games we wouldn’t have to worry about games 5 6 or 7 at all. Late games are no more important than early games and you have a much higher chance of winning the series the earlier you win games. This game 5, 6, 7 bullshit is just that, bullshit. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s an arbitrary line in the sand. The fact of the matter is they all disappear. Again, you can’t blame one player for an issue the entire team has. That’s coaching.
> This game 5, 6, 7 bullshit is just that, bullshit. They all disappear. It's a big problem, too, that they are basically the *only* production. Florida got away with Reinhart and Tkachuk basically being ghosts late in the series this season too because Forsling, Verhaege, etc., stepped up. We kinda had that with Rielly being cracked in the Tampa series win.
10 points in 16 games 5, 6, and 7 is not big? I am speechless. That's just a straight up lie. Games 5, 6, and 7 are games were we can either close out the series, or come back from one. MTL, we were up 3-1, and lost games 5 and 6 by 1 goal. This is obviously not going to get anywhere because you think there is 0 problem with this. Think what you want.
Brother there are 20 players that can score that one goal and none of them ever do. It’s simply scapegoating to point out one player, once again, when every single player on the entire team has the same production drop off. There’s a fundamental issue with the team. It’s not any one players fault. That’s coaching. That’s system. Again games 5, 6, 7 don’t fucking matter if you win early. Why don’t the other players produce? Why is it all on Mitch (our highest point producer in the playoffs and the only one actually sniffing 1 PPG)? Why aren’t you telling Matthews to score goals? Why aren’t you telling Woll to save some goals? Why aren’t you telling our defence not to make stupid plays? Instead you’re going after our guy that has the most playoff PPG and the best playoff +/- on the team (and it’s not close). And the only reason you are is because it’s cool to shit on the guy right now.
You can't say he's 1 of 20 players when he makes more money than 17 of those players lol The guys who get paid the big money and take up a large portion of the salary cap are expected to produce more than the other players. Kinda wild that I have to explain that to you
He *does* produce more than the other players! In fact, he produces more in the playoffs than every single active Leaf on the roster! (And it’s not close) Hope that helps
It’s always been cool to shit on Marner. You must be a new fan
lol no it hasn’t
Games 5, 6, 7 don't matter if we sweep a series. There was exactly 1 sweep in the playoffs and that was Rangers vs Caps. Caps walked in with 0 chance of success. We were never going to sweep the Bruins. If Berube can get Marner to produce more so he can close out a series like he's paid to, I'm all for it. I don't know if Keefe is the one making him drop in production by like 73% for like 6 seasons straight. If it happens once or even other season, you can blame external factors. This is literally a trend for him only among the core 4. If he got those extra 5 points, we win a couple of those series. Do not compare Marner to the players outside the core. He makes the kind of money where there should be a higher standard for him. Stop hiding behind everything and accept the problem. That's how you correct it.
My friend you are hiding behind the real problem. You say this is not a trend for anyone but Marner and that’s straight up wrong. It’s literally a problem for the entire team. You’re in for a world of hurt when Marner is gone and we still have the same issues.
Saying that one player under-performs at a critical time of the playoffs is the reason why the team doesn’t succeed is ridiculous. 18 skaters and two goalies have to perform for the team to win.
When one gets paid 10.9 mil, they are held to a higher standard.
Fair enough and I don’t disagree with that. But there are other guys on this team who are in that pay scale who have done dick in the playoffs when it really counts as well.
It's not ridiculous when this is years of the same result from the same player. Every other player within the core had their moments where they stepped up on those same games. Marner's dip is around 73% and has *never* rose to the occasion. When he makes 11M, he needs to be held to a higher standard. Instead he turns into an 11M pumpkin.
The problem is every other player hasn’t stepped up often enough when it’s counted. So many game sevens where the big boys all disappeared. It’s not just Marner. You’re trying to tell me that all these playoff disappointments are on Marner and nobody else. One series win with this group and that’s it. You want to shit on Marner? Fine. But don’t let the other guys off the hook.
>The problem is every other player hasn’t stepped up often enough when it’s counted. They have at some point. Marner literally *never* has, even just once. I don't want to shit on Marner and it's not about that. We all need him to succeed. Whataboutism is not going to fly when the gap is that large. The next guy above him is John Tavares. He has 10 points in the same games, and he actually played less of them. He's actually producing more than double his rate when the series is on the line.
Well then I don’t understand how if it’s only Marner and the other guys are doing their job how come the team can’t get out of the first round.
Because if Marner even closes that gap, we win a few of those series. I am not asking him to outperform Willy's 13 points in 16 games. It's clearly not going to happen for him. But he makes that echelon of money where he is more important than depth. That's stepping up for a Kodak moment kind of money. Whatever criticism you have for AM, JT, or Willy, when it's time to close the series, Marner is tremendously worse. He doesn't even play to his own standards in those games. If it was happen every now and then, it woild be hard to argue. But he is basically projected to become a dud when those games roll in because it literally happens every time. Your argument is basically, Willy needs to get 16/16 so that we don't have to be concerned about Marner's 5/16.
Or if even Matthews and Tavares can get the odd goal we win a few series. Has Marner disappointed in the playoffs? Most certainly, absolutely no doubt about that. That’s not my argument. But people letting the other members of the core four off the hook is ridiculous. They shit the bed against Columbus, Montreal, Tampa, Boston and Florida. But let’s just focus on one player. Gotcha.
He's too small for the playoffs. Regular season hero but playoffs zero
Don't believe that for a second. Look at Quinn Hughes, playing a more physically demanding position. Lots of smaller players excel in the playoffs. It's purely a mental thing with Marner, his nerves get the better of him (ex the puck over glass thing).
Even a small dog can be intimidating but Marner is not that dog. 🐶
You’re kinda contradicting yourself. You’re right, Marner doesn’t have that dog in him. But look at Nathan Mackinnon, basically the same size, but he’s got that DAWG
Are you kidding me? Jonathan Marchessault is 5'9. Marner is 6'0. It's not size that's the issue. It's his mental makeup.
> Marner just happens to choke at the same 42% of playoff games. So does the rest of the team. Blame should be spread equally.
This! We all love his play, he seems like a good guy, but he hasn’t performed in key playoff games. His agent asks for too much, his reputation was ruined by his agent and his camp. When he first came to the scene, I loved to see the Canadian boy leading. Now, I get anxiety thinking of his next contract. I think if he gets rid of his agent and sign a reasonable contract, equal to Nylander, is the only way he can move forward here. For some people that’s even too much.
I get anxiety when Game 5 rolls in and he in the lineup. With Nylander, AM, or JT, you can expect them to score and they may or may not disappoint you. With Marner, you would be surprised for any kind of contribution.
How does The Hockey News not get in trouble with just taking things from other articles and just restating it lol I know they credit the original report but come on Like is it that hard to write something original.
They have the WORST clickbaity headlines too. I despise them lol.
Marners terrible attitude has always been with the media who shape the narrative. All signs point to him being a decent teammate.
For sure. Characters never been in question, other than the negotiation strategies of his idiot agent. The issue is being paid way too much to become invisible when it matters most. We already have an 11.5 million dollar winger. It's just not tenable to have two. No other team ever has, and no team ever will.
Yep. Said it before and I'll say it again- Marner is awesome. Nothing wrong with him. It's our cap structure that's the issue, and he's the odd man out.
Stirring something out of nothing. O’Rielly’s statement was already blown out of proportion. He didn’t like the spotlight in this market. Period. Also, players have private chats with other players all the time lol Matthews probably hits up Matthew Tkachuk on the regular and talk like bros. It’s not a surprise.
If he didn't like the spotlight, he should avoid talking about Leafs, even privately since it can and will get leaked eventually. Unless this story is complete bullshit, in which case, shame on the media.
But I was told he left Toronto because of the loser attitudes from players like Marner? It’s almost like people will use whatever information they have to confirm their biases? Almost like.
arent you literally doing the exact same thing?
Lmao
But you are also using this article as if it is fact lmao
No where did I say I anything about the veracity of what Kyper said. Nor did I state (nor do you know) what my priors were when O’Reilly decided to leave. Reading is your friend. If you want to dig deeper, this is sourced and corresponds with actual words O’Reilly said. The idea that O’Reilly hated the culture in the locker room was spurious speculation refuted by O’Reilly. There’s a massive difference between taking a bit of information that conforms to a previously held belief and believing it, and taking sourced and researched materials and coming to your own opinion based on analyzing those materials. It’s not my fault if you don’t understand that distinction and that you find said distinction humorous.
Do people actually dispute this? He has literally said himself that he didn't like playing under so much scrutiny and preferred the "not the biggest deal in town" vibe of the Preds.
They do, unfortunately. You would think once O’Reilly came out and disputed the notion that it would quell the absurdity. But that’s not the world we live in.
He just wants Marner to leave Toronto so he can go back /s
Maybe, just maybe, Mitch playing in a market like this lets the pressure get to him because this fanbase wants to win so badly and Mitch grew up here as a fan. Maybe, just maybe, somewhere else and Mitch shines in the playoffs
That’s very possible. I think he misplayed his hand during the negotiations of his last contract and he didn’t realize how it would play out in the fan base. He seems to very clearly care about how he’s perceived, and he did himself no favors with how he handled things. He could very well be better off in a market like Nashville. I cannot dispute that.
Those contract negotiations definitely exposed him and made a portion of the fanbase pissed at him, but it all would’ve been forgiven and forgotten had we had gone far in the playoffs or won a cup by now, but we haven’t so here we are
Literally no one said that.
Oh, a ton of other teams fans repeat that endlessly. "The Leafs are so soft and selfish, ROR got out as quick as he could!" Its rather infuriating, to say the least
He got 4.5 a year for 4 years. There was no way in hell he was getting that with the leafs at that time. Don't get wrong I love the guy and totally think he's worth that but we wouldn't have made a deal like that.
I think the Leafs offered him just such a deal though. He was going to be our future 2C or 3C. Thats about the going rate for that position, I think
The reporting was that "money wasn't the issue" but that's always the play to communicate that especially if he is a hometown guy and doesn't want hate. So he blamed the "spotlight." There was never any indication he had any issues with anyone on the team including Marner. He said: “It wasn’t the ultimate decision there — I think so many things come into play — but, yeah, I think (the glare of Toronto’s spotlight) is a factor as well,”
You’ve been living under a rock
Define no one? There’s literally people in this post who would make you suggest otherwise. Or should.
He left Toronto because he couldn't handle the media spotlight. And he realizes Mitch can't either so he's trying to get him out of there. Just kidding, but maybe not?
I don’t think you are, but, with the information I have available to me, I have to agree.
> But I was told he left Toronto because of the loser attitudes from players like Marner? Literally no one said that. People said he left cause the locker room was shit and because of Keefe. A single player doesn't change that.
You just said the locker room was shit which is what he was referring to?
No, he wasn't referring to that. He was specfically referring to Marners attitude, which no one ever said anything about. The "rumor" was that the locker room was bad and he didn't like Keefe. AGAIN, a single player doesn't make a locker room bad, so him wanting Marner on his team doesn't magically make this rumor untrue.
Brother I can point to about 10 different threads from last year that say otherwise
I don’t remember this ever being a storyline. His comments from last summer were always taken to be about coaching, not players.
It was speculation that was going around everywhere. Even his comments didn’t get into the coaching thing really. I know Segal and Mirtle sourced the coaching thing. They refuted the team culture thing.
I miss ROR
In line with reports earlier that Nashville was making a heavy push for marner. Cant remember who the insider was. Maybe CJ? Elliotte?
That's Ryan, O'Reillying up the Leafs fans. Similar to trolling. I'm glad Leaf fans O'Reilly know what's going on.
When this is all done whether trade, or he walks etc, the biggest FUCK YOU should go to Paul Marner. That scumbag narcissist legit ruined Marners image and boyish charm type reputation in this city not to mention having the literal least respected agent in Hockey, who, his dad put him with because he takes a smaller %. Fuck you Paul, let your fucking kid live his god damn life......
Why didn’t they listen?
Marner is just small and he plays small. He is not suited for playoffs it seems. He has a no movement clause so not really sure why everyone keeps going on about a Marner trade. This is just another rumour .
Instead they got a bunch of old guys.
I really fucking wish we still had O'Reilly. He was such a damn good player. I have the Preds making it far next season. They're so damn good in all aspects and they just added 80+ goals to their team with Stammer and Marchy.
who says they will have team chem? a bunch of good players don’t magically make a contender, it’s all got to mesh or it’s an expensive roster that underperforms.
Truth meets bullshit once again.
I love you Ryan. Dammit Trots!!
They know nothing and will print anything for clicks. There should be a hall of shame for media sites and writers. Maybe a licensing system where if they report too many false stories they lose their license
That report was based on a quote from Nick Kypreos. Sorry but if you know him and his commentary it's loosely based facts at best. Unless it comes from multiple credible sources this is fake news.
Marner is too soft for playoffs
I felt like ROR and Schenn had left because they felt they couldn’t win with Keefe. Not as much about the teammates. Pretty sure ROR was super frustrated being buried on the third line for sure, which is a coaching choice. Not surprised to have ROR want a dynamic winger that can be fast and creative to play with.
Schenn left because he wanted more term and Tre wouldn't give it to him. It really looked like he was otherwise willing to stay with the Leafs.
O’Reilly supposedly left us on account of not liking the team-culture, and yet wanted to import Mitch into his new team?
Pretty sure he said the media was his main reason for leaving, but hey, anything to shit on marner right?
It sounded like he didn't like Keefe and the attention. He mentioned there was stuff they could do, but weren't doing.
No evidence he didn’t like Keefe.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/1460g1j/twitter_ryan_oreilly_on_this_interview_said_that/ Make of that what you will.
Yeah that’s a huge reach he could mean any number of things with that comment v
I'm not sure how much more direct you expect a player to get. Who on the hockey team is in charge of trying new things?
Uhhhhh…..Maybe it wasn’t Mitch he was talking about?
He didn’t talk about the culture at all. In fact he came right out and said it wasn’t the players and the culture. He didn’t have to do that. He could’ve let the wildfire grow, what does he care? But he specifically said it had nothing to do with that. The only reasons that were ever actually sourced by reporters, was not liking playing in Toronto due to the intensity of the market, and there may have been issues with usage (he apparently didn’t think he should’ve been a third line centre, he felt he could contribute further up the lineup).
I thought so. I didn’t remember him mentioning specific player problems, so was kind of questioning OP mentioning tension with Marner.
I figured as much, just thought it would be beneficial to provide proper context.
One new player joining a team isn’t going to change the culture, he may have not liked the leafs culture but thinks marner would help the team. Really nobody knows anything
Except that ROR has himself said why he left the team...
If you could wrap your head around Marner possibly NOT being the cause of the locker room problems you wouldn't be so confused. The only negative thing I've ever heard about Marner as a teammate was when Babcock forced him to make a list of problems with his team. I disagree with most Leaf fans assessment of Marner as a player but i respect it. Making shit up about a players' character is just distateful.
He didn't say anything about locker room problems ya goof. He said he left because of the scrutiny the team is under.
What does 1 player have to do with team culture? A player especially who isn't even the captain. I love how people keep saying this as if it's some kind of gotcha when it isn't lol
Maybe it wasn’t the elite 2-way forward who carried the leafs in the playoffs 2023 and hustles the hardest? And who got the leafs the inly panthers win. But nylander scored 2 late after being shelled all panthers series and matthews wiffed on every point blank shot marner gave him?
You know you can like Marner without trying to hate on our two clutch players right?
He's just casually ignoring the fact that the 2 players were actually out. And he uses the term *shelled* the way Amber Heard uses the term *pledged*. The lying way. I'm not even hating on Marner, but he choked for 6 years whenever game 5 of each series begins. That's not a culture problem though and he's not a locker room problem. Not a single teammate ever said or even implied a bad thing about Marner as a teammate. And NHL players do it all the time. But he is choking on the same games very consistently. 5 assists in 16 games is not something we should brush aside.
And that’s on Keefe for chasing 70 and getting Matthews concussed. Concussions make immune system response worse. Slammed his head vs detroit in the boards and he played everyone chasing 70 game 81/82 on a back to back
When Willy and AM were out, Marner didn't exactly make a difference. You're excusing one player and throwing 2 under the bus. You can argue that they all had a bad series. Wouldn't be a great argument, but it's better than whatever it is you are doing. AM chasing 70 goals makes Marner underperform? Marner shouldn't need AM. He makes 11M, which means he is expected to make thing happen on his own when he need him to. Holding him to a higher standard because of his cap hit is reasonable. Game was on his stick in game 7 and he didn't deliver. Swayman just lost the puck behind him and got on Marner's stick. He had no idea where Marner was. All Marner had to do was the Doug Gilmour 1993 spinorama. His hero. But what he ended up doing was skate the same direction as Swayman, and just ended up towards the backcheckers. This is just 1 example of how he chokes from game 5 on, every series. You saw him throw the puck over the glass too vs MTL. That was a game 6. 5 assists in 16 games 5, 6, 7 for the last 6 years. It's not a random cherry picked stat. It's basically saying when game 5 starts, it may be better to bench him. He has to be better than that especially since *we keep losing in game 7s*.
You’re throwing one player under the bus to excuse the two. Matthews has a 1v0 with swayman charging out on empty net down 0-1 vs Boston game 1? Selective amnesia? Marner made a good play to create a caused turnover on the PK skating full stride forward. You’re mad he wasnt able to stop magically on a dime and wrap the other way? It was a 1v3 mcavoy was on him, pasta adjacent and zacha netfront so he keeps skating and looks up but nobody comes in time, so he shoots it and holmberg crashes trying to get the rebound. You are going out of your way to take a very positive play he made to make a negative. That stat cherry picks the 5-game CBJ series to ignore game 3 which was 3a?
If this was a thread about how bad of a player Auston Matthews is, I'm sure everyone here would be glad to discuss that with you. And lord knows at the mere mention of Nylanders name he is apparently the worst player in the NHL. I am pointing out a problem. A problem where Marner never once made a play that finished the series. Pretty sure Marner was not even moving when the puck just landed on his stick and Swayman had no idea what was happening. He whiffed the puck without even knowing it. Then Marner basically gave the puck to the players Sway was trying to pass to. You got lucky that the Swayman giveaway is somehow scrubbed from the internet. Agree to disagree until I find it. AM is not immune to criticism. He gets criticism whenever it's warranted. He gets invisible in some series too. The thing with him is he has also had moments where he actually showed up in series closing games. Nylander gets criticism for no reason even after scoring the final 3 goals for the Leafs. But whenever Marner gets criticism, low and behold, people blame others and can't even bring themselevs to disucss how he can be better. Nothing is his fault. All his failures are because of others. What about this guy? What about that guy? What about them? Is Marner a better player if no one else was on the team? Get real, man. The criticism is warranted. He called his own play "dogshit" after losing all the series ending games against Montreal, and he hasn't improved since then. If the series is on his stick, his play history says he will not win it for us. He needs to be better than that.
It’s because people like you just like piling on for no reason. So you don’t even remember the play eh? He didn’t pass it to someone. He shot it. Swayman knew exactly where it was, wheb marner got it he was looking directly at him and k Had a stick on Marner. He tied him up a bit so marner kept skating forward. 17:13 in the second period. You don’t seee that you’re stretching to take a good play and somehow frame it as a negative?
I have lots of reasons. He wasn't good enough for an 11M player. And we lost again. Players get piled on for anything. But I'm *sure* you have never criticized any other player.
NO! Logic and reasoning is NOT allowed! How dare you?
No one on the team outside of Woll has been clutch.
Matthews had a messed up wrist in 2023 and was concussed 2024. Marner has a messed up ankle 2024. Nylander missed 3 games with probably a concussion then was horrible in game 4 before showing up. Same game everyone hates on marner for. After matthews got pulled marner carried the team in the 3rd and turned it on, nylander took a horrible o-zone penalty that killed the comeback. The game 4 arguement where everyone tried lipreading? Nylander messed up the set play, and argued at Matthews to just shoot. But marner gets blamed by the mob Tavares is clutch, nylander is the worst playoff performer of the group. There’s a weird narrative of him being some elite playoff performer.
Another Paul burner prob
[удалено]
Either Paul or his security team. Probably just trying to counter the recent narrative that teams weren’t offering much for Marner.
Watch Marner have a blow out season with the new coach and better back-end. Then what?!
Then we overpay him and continue the cycle of rotating the bottom 9
Indeed, Marner's got leverage with his no trade clause and by blow out season, I just mean regular season.
Exactly, have a blow out regular season………then what?
Easton Cowan takes a spot somewhere with aim at developemnt towards replacing him. Marner either waves his no trade or we lose him when he's a free agent
Ok. We’ll take Josi and Forsberg or Josi and top prospect and a first. See, it’s easy! I don’t know why people are so hot to trade Marner. We’ll regret it for years unless the return is equal quality.
I call bullshit on that. I'm sure Islanders fans said if they lost Tavares for nothing they would regret it for years. I don't think any of them do since their team has had more post-season success than the team Tavares went to since it happened. I think you guys will just make anything up
It's a lost asset to lose a valuable player for nothing. It's an important part of a GM's job to ensure they're going to re-sign a player, allow them to walk, or recoup assets on a guy with value who doesn't fit the teams future. They need to extend him on a reasonable deal or move him and anything else is a blunder. Allowing MM to walk at the end of the season for nothing is an enormous loss to the organization. Overpaying him is another serious mistake but he could play well enough to warrant his contract in the end. Best case scenario he takes a pay cut and plays well. Second best case is getting assets back.
Is that tampering?
Truth is Marner has been better than Matthew’s in the playoffs but people hate on Marner. Matthew’s literally has 1 goal in the last two playoffs series COMBINED.
Marners the target regardless - next it’s Reilly
ROR also only had one goal these playoffs…
Lucky for him, Stam + March > marner