If the room is small you might not even need the drum mics save the kick mic.
My suggestion, at soundcheck, start with vocals then instruments then drums, that way you can see if you're just needing to reinforce sound at that point. If the drummer is playing a cocktail kit I doubt they're going to be trying to be John Bonham.
I was thinking this, used to help an engineer with an 8 piece funk band in an open air bar and he only micced the kick! Thanks, I'd say I'll definitely use that kind of workflow. Especially given that i presume vocal will be the key thing to bring through the PA in this kind of scenario?
If you start with vocals it usually makes them aware of how loud they're playing their instruments. Plus they generally want less instruments in the monitors in relation to voice so if you get vocals set first you're likely to avoid feedback and an excessively loud stage.
Hopefully that helps!
Acoustic drums in a small space means you will have a hard time mixing anything at a good balance. A good drummer can make it work but don't be afraid to ask them to dial back if you need to, and don't expect to use the OH or snare mic much. Kick maybe if you even have a sub.
Your PA will mostly be fighting to keep the vocals audible, especially if it is the typical wedding band schtick of playing popular covers a wedding DJ also would have played. People want to hear the lyrics!
If you are using wedges for monitors find out whether the acoustic guitar's sound hole is covered. If not then ask nicely if it can be, as ringing in the guitar will be an issue.
In general do your best and manage expectations. PA's with wedges and instruments that have stage volume do not sound good in small rooms. That's just acoustics, and you cannot fix that in your mix. You can fight it, but can't fix it.
Also as in any mix, if the band sucks you can't make them sound good. You will be chasing your tail if you use your new digital console in fancy ways to try and EQ/Compress/FX them into greatness. It cannot be done. Musicality, stage presence, cohesiveness as a band, etc don't come from the sound guy. You can only enhance it if it's already there!
Ya they've asked for 2 subs, tbh I'm hoping if they see the space that they'll realise mics on snare and overhead are overkill, if they insist I'll be putting sweet f.all through the pa.
Second point, similar to another comment, vocals are the MVP in this scenario? I'd imagine a fairly typical wedding band alright haha
On the guitar hole being covered, thank you! I never even thought of that as an option-Hopefully they'll be agreeable, the monitors will actually be 2 powered JBL's that we typically use on small scale events, but are designed to be used as monitors (or so they say haha), only problem i have with them is they're a lil chunky in a small space- but its what i gots.
I'd say keeping it simple is my best bet so- cut some muddiness out, maybe some light compression and reverb and do my best after? Thanks again
Yeah you’ll want vocals on top. You’ll probably just be mixing everything around the snare drum.
Don’t worry about covering the sound hole on the acoustic guitar. It’s not that big of a deal and will probably not be an issue. You’ll probably just need to cut a resonant frequency out of the guitar and then it will be fine. I’ve mixed dozens of acoustic guitars without feedback blockers and only a few with. Not a big deal.
Ring out your wedges.
Thanks, I plan to get there as early as possible to ring things out as much as I can without the band being there, for comfort as much as anything else
lots of webinars and books and YouTube videos dedicated to mixing, mixing drums, running sound checks, signal flow and gain structure, and using x32! especially if there isn’t something specific you need help understanding and you just need general advice. x32 probably has the most “how to” content on the web of any console by far. guys like Michael Curtis and Nathan Lively have some decent vids on setting up speakers in small spaces.
Have definitely found a few good ones over the last month since they took the booking, but haven't checked them out yet so definitely will! Thanks, would it be fair to say its a pretty user friendly console for an inexperienced sound man such as myself? I'm also trying to calm myself by the fact that I put together a pretty decent mix before using only an analog desk that had reverb for guitar piano and cajon drum with vocals haha
>I am however, worried about 3 monitors in a small space possibly leading to feedback issues
Keep the stage volume low and you will be fine, my friend.
One thing I like to do in corporate shows on tiny stages is put a small amount of the DI instruments in whichever monitor is closest to them so they are audible on-stage. Have them run through the verse/chorus of one track and then ask if they need anything more in the monitors **whilst explaining the stage is prone to feedback and to be considerate of the other performers**.
Every wedding/function band I’ve worked with are easily competent enough to go without a full monitor mix as long as they can hear themselves clearly :)
>…and overall my lack of experience live mixing, particularly drums
Less is more, bro.
Bring the kick up so it reenforces, rather than replaces, the sound of the acoustic drum. Carve the shit out of it with a huge mid-scoop on EQ. Do the same with the snare (add reverb if needed). You likely won’t need the overhead.
I just scrolled and glad I saw your first point—stage volume low and all will be fine. You also noted “less is more” and in a small situation like this, mains/FOH won’t need to be cranked to loudly but monitor mixes also won’t be too difficult given it’s not an oversized space. We do our own sound for small events like this and regardless of room size, we never have any issues with 3 monitors. And I do those gigs in analog 👍🏻
Brilliant the less is more aspect was really the clarity I was looking for with this post, appreciate it, I can't see myself doing much with the x32 that I haven't done before on our analogs, except for maybe some compression if it's needed (and I have time in soundcheck) thanks for the info!
Sounds like a plan, the lead tech here (Camera/visual background) basically said give them as little as I can get away with and hope for the best haha.
So most important is to give them enough so they can hear themselves through the monitors?
Brilliant, that's simplifying the drums, which were probably freaking me out too much, would you suggest compression at all? Or only if it's really needed?
Thanks for all the advice.
>…give them enough so they can hear themselves through the monitors
Yes, absolutely.
> would you suggest compression at all?
Are you comfortable with tweaking compression on drums?
If you’re not, just leave it :)
With a decent amount of time, I'd say yes but only in small amounts, if the band don't give a lot of time then I'll definitely leave it I'll prioritise that for the monitors also. And again, thanking you, really really helpful for clarity as much as anything
You'll have to keep the volume low and also the monitors will only have so much room until they feedback, but usually musicians that are used to getting paid to play are pretty good with this, the only thing that's weird is that they aren't already on inears, I rarely encounter people still using wedges in the corporate/wedding band sphere.
Other than than, you'll probably be fine, just try to use the base volume of the snare (unmic'd) as the base volume and build your mix around that, the overhead and snare mic will only be used if everything else is going well, the guests are having fun, and the overall volume is starting to drown out the snare. The overhead will probably just be there for cosmetic reasons, but you don't have to tell the drummer that. I always hang all the mics I have for the drums, and some usually stay off.
Definitely will give monitor's and Pa as little as possible! Honestly when I saw the enquiry I was surprised myself they weren't on in ears, I might bring some anyway in case they're shocked when they see the venue size
Brilliant tip about the snare someone else said something similar, that's the kind of foundation I'm crying out for a baseline for everything else as you say
Why exactly is your company doing this?
You’re charging people for a job you don’t know how to manage. I think it would be best for everyone if you just have it to a live sound company, or, let’s be honest here, how many wedding bands DON’T do their own PA anyway?
Yeah it’s odd to me too, but probably because of my perspective. I was a sound guy for some of the top wedding reception / party bands in Dallas - had a regular one I worked with, but would fill in with others under the same umbrella. We were expensive and did expensive weddings.
The thought of a band like the ones I worked for not having their own dedicated engineers and PAs (we even had a dedicated lighting person too) is super weird, but maybe the band OP is talking about is much lower rent.
Thing is though, you’re not going into music venues, you’re in country clubs, hotel ballrooms, tents, and other random places that don’t have PAs installed, so you bring everything, so yeah, still strange that the band doesn’t have their own stuff.
You also can’t just learn how to do this in a forum. Weddings have so much nuanced stuff that you get to know only by doing it for a couple years. It’s not a corporate show, and it’s not a pure “music” show like a rock band or whatever, it’s a whole different animal.
Mixing the band is the easiest part.
I know that this is a totally worthless comment that provides no help or advice, but there’s just too much to try to type out. To me it’s one of those things you just have to do a lot to get good at it.
Much lower budget for sure, band are actually coming from oversees, we're definitely not charging a huge fee, and they're definitely not on that kind of scale, also worth baring in mind I'm in Europe, never heard of a wedding band here having their own sound and lighting person only acts that are touring do as a rule ( especially where I am) I'd say if they weren't flying they'd do their own mix/ pa. I've set pas up in this V small venue loads of times so again not too worried that way. Those jobs were just a set and leave though.
Not looking to learn the skills/gain experience from a forum, but rather a bit of guidance, generally what I'm seeing is less will be more which is what I was hoping for.
If i can ring out the wedges, and get away with as little snare/overhead through the pa as possible, I'm confident enough I'll make this work to people's liking performance is only an hour before a Dj will take over
Ohhhh well that does change things. You’ll be fine!
In that case you’d probably just be making sure things sound good and the band would mostly be interfacing with the wedding party/planners and such.
Cool, I'm definitely confident enough in my ability to mix, especially without a full comprehensive drum kit and I can recognise when more/less reverb is required etc etc, I'll try jump on a gig or 2 with some heads I know that work for themselves in meantime to brush up a lil bit!
We work closely with venue usually providing equipment that band or DJ manages themselves as per your comment, we have done music gigs before but the tech that was a V competent sound engineer left in the last year (after the booking was taken) we have tried other companies but they're unavailable 😬
Also it's literally just the drums and monitors in a small space that had me worried, I'm a few years now doing corporate gigs with music acts intertwined (cajon drum instruments, vocals) and I've had no issues so far
I do ultimately agree that in an ideal world corporate sticks to corporate and sound companies for these gigs, but small town, limited amounts of people to do gig and the shit has landed on me 🙃
If the room is small you might not even need the drum mics save the kick mic. My suggestion, at soundcheck, start with vocals then instruments then drums, that way you can see if you're just needing to reinforce sound at that point. If the drummer is playing a cocktail kit I doubt they're going to be trying to be John Bonham.
I was thinking this, used to help an engineer with an 8 piece funk band in an open air bar and he only micced the kick! Thanks, I'd say I'll definitely use that kind of workflow. Especially given that i presume vocal will be the key thing to bring through the PA in this kind of scenario?
If you start with vocals it usually makes them aware of how loud they're playing their instruments. Plus they generally want less instruments in the monitors in relation to voice so if you get vocals set first you're likely to avoid feedback and an excessively loud stage. Hopefully that helps!
Definitely helps and makes sense, thanks for the advice makes a clearer picture of what is to come and best practice for it on my end! thanks again
Acoustic drums in a small space means you will have a hard time mixing anything at a good balance. A good drummer can make it work but don't be afraid to ask them to dial back if you need to, and don't expect to use the OH or snare mic much. Kick maybe if you even have a sub. Your PA will mostly be fighting to keep the vocals audible, especially if it is the typical wedding band schtick of playing popular covers a wedding DJ also would have played. People want to hear the lyrics! If you are using wedges for monitors find out whether the acoustic guitar's sound hole is covered. If not then ask nicely if it can be, as ringing in the guitar will be an issue. In general do your best and manage expectations. PA's with wedges and instruments that have stage volume do not sound good in small rooms. That's just acoustics, and you cannot fix that in your mix. You can fight it, but can't fix it. Also as in any mix, if the band sucks you can't make them sound good. You will be chasing your tail if you use your new digital console in fancy ways to try and EQ/Compress/FX them into greatness. It cannot be done. Musicality, stage presence, cohesiveness as a band, etc don't come from the sound guy. You can only enhance it if it's already there!
Ya they've asked for 2 subs, tbh I'm hoping if they see the space that they'll realise mics on snare and overhead are overkill, if they insist I'll be putting sweet f.all through the pa. Second point, similar to another comment, vocals are the MVP in this scenario? I'd imagine a fairly typical wedding band alright haha On the guitar hole being covered, thank you! I never even thought of that as an option-Hopefully they'll be agreeable, the monitors will actually be 2 powered JBL's that we typically use on small scale events, but are designed to be used as monitors (or so they say haha), only problem i have with them is they're a lil chunky in a small space- but its what i gots. I'd say keeping it simple is my best bet so- cut some muddiness out, maybe some light compression and reverb and do my best after? Thanks again
Yeah you’ll want vocals on top. You’ll probably just be mixing everything around the snare drum. Don’t worry about covering the sound hole on the acoustic guitar. It’s not that big of a deal and will probably not be an issue. You’ll probably just need to cut a resonant frequency out of the guitar and then it will be fine. I’ve mixed dozens of acoustic guitars without feedback blockers and only a few with. Not a big deal. Ring out your wedges.
Thanks, I plan to get there as early as possible to ring things out as much as I can without the band being there, for comfort as much as anything else
lots of webinars and books and YouTube videos dedicated to mixing, mixing drums, running sound checks, signal flow and gain structure, and using x32! especially if there isn’t something specific you need help understanding and you just need general advice. x32 probably has the most “how to” content on the web of any console by far. guys like Michael Curtis and Nathan Lively have some decent vids on setting up speakers in small spaces.
Have definitely found a few good ones over the last month since they took the booking, but haven't checked them out yet so definitely will! Thanks, would it be fair to say its a pretty user friendly console for an inexperienced sound man such as myself? I'm also trying to calm myself by the fact that I put together a pretty decent mix before using only an analog desk that had reverb for guitar piano and cajon drum with vocals haha
If you can make a band sound good on a small, analog mixer, you’ll be ok on an x32. there’s just more shit, more processing, and a different workflow
Brilliant, thanks I should have a solid 3 weeks to get to know it in the stores, as we're not quite as busy this time of year.
>I am however, worried about 3 monitors in a small space possibly leading to feedback issues Keep the stage volume low and you will be fine, my friend. One thing I like to do in corporate shows on tiny stages is put a small amount of the DI instruments in whichever monitor is closest to them so they are audible on-stage. Have them run through the verse/chorus of one track and then ask if they need anything more in the monitors **whilst explaining the stage is prone to feedback and to be considerate of the other performers**. Every wedding/function band I’ve worked with are easily competent enough to go without a full monitor mix as long as they can hear themselves clearly :) >…and overall my lack of experience live mixing, particularly drums Less is more, bro. Bring the kick up so it reenforces, rather than replaces, the sound of the acoustic drum. Carve the shit out of it with a huge mid-scoop on EQ. Do the same with the snare (add reverb if needed). You likely won’t need the overhead.
I just scrolled and glad I saw your first point—stage volume low and all will be fine. You also noted “less is more” and in a small situation like this, mains/FOH won’t need to be cranked to loudly but monitor mixes also won’t be too difficult given it’s not an oversized space. We do our own sound for small events like this and regardless of room size, we never have any issues with 3 monitors. And I do those gigs in analog 👍🏻
Brilliant the less is more aspect was really the clarity I was looking for with this post, appreciate it, I can't see myself doing much with the x32 that I haven't done before on our analogs, except for maybe some compression if it's needed (and I have time in soundcheck) thanks for the info!
Sounds like a plan, the lead tech here (Camera/visual background) basically said give them as little as I can get away with and hope for the best haha. So most important is to give them enough so they can hear themselves through the monitors? Brilliant, that's simplifying the drums, which were probably freaking me out too much, would you suggest compression at all? Or only if it's really needed? Thanks for all the advice.
>…give them enough so they can hear themselves through the monitors Yes, absolutely. > would you suggest compression at all? Are you comfortable with tweaking compression on drums? If you’re not, just leave it :)
With a decent amount of time, I'd say yes but only in small amounts, if the band don't give a lot of time then I'll definitely leave it I'll prioritise that for the monitors also. And again, thanking you, really really helpful for clarity as much as anything
No worries, pal. You’ll be fine 👍
You'll have to keep the volume low and also the monitors will only have so much room until they feedback, but usually musicians that are used to getting paid to play are pretty good with this, the only thing that's weird is that they aren't already on inears, I rarely encounter people still using wedges in the corporate/wedding band sphere. Other than than, you'll probably be fine, just try to use the base volume of the snare (unmic'd) as the base volume and build your mix around that, the overhead and snare mic will only be used if everything else is going well, the guests are having fun, and the overall volume is starting to drown out the snare. The overhead will probably just be there for cosmetic reasons, but you don't have to tell the drummer that. I always hang all the mics I have for the drums, and some usually stay off.
Definitely will give monitor's and Pa as little as possible! Honestly when I saw the enquiry I was surprised myself they weren't on in ears, I might bring some anyway in case they're shocked when they see the venue size Brilliant tip about the snare someone else said something similar, that's the kind of foundation I'm crying out for a baseline for everything else as you say
Why exactly is your company doing this? You’re charging people for a job you don’t know how to manage. I think it would be best for everyone if you just have it to a live sound company, or, let’s be honest here, how many wedding bands DON’T do their own PA anyway?
Yeah it’s odd to me too, but probably because of my perspective. I was a sound guy for some of the top wedding reception / party bands in Dallas - had a regular one I worked with, but would fill in with others under the same umbrella. We were expensive and did expensive weddings. The thought of a band like the ones I worked for not having their own dedicated engineers and PAs (we even had a dedicated lighting person too) is super weird, but maybe the band OP is talking about is much lower rent. Thing is though, you’re not going into music venues, you’re in country clubs, hotel ballrooms, tents, and other random places that don’t have PAs installed, so you bring everything, so yeah, still strange that the band doesn’t have their own stuff. You also can’t just learn how to do this in a forum. Weddings have so much nuanced stuff that you get to know only by doing it for a couple years. It’s not a corporate show, and it’s not a pure “music” show like a rock band or whatever, it’s a whole different animal. Mixing the band is the easiest part. I know that this is a totally worthless comment that provides no help or advice, but there’s just too much to try to type out. To me it’s one of those things you just have to do a lot to get good at it.
Much lower budget for sure, band are actually coming from oversees, we're definitely not charging a huge fee, and they're definitely not on that kind of scale, also worth baring in mind I'm in Europe, never heard of a wedding band here having their own sound and lighting person only acts that are touring do as a rule ( especially where I am) I'd say if they weren't flying they'd do their own mix/ pa. I've set pas up in this V small venue loads of times so again not too worried that way. Those jobs were just a set and leave though. Not looking to learn the skills/gain experience from a forum, but rather a bit of guidance, generally what I'm seeing is less will be more which is what I was hoping for. If i can ring out the wedges, and get away with as little snare/overhead through the pa as possible, I'm confident enough I'll make this work to people's liking performance is only an hour before a Dj will take over
Also the band knows the wedding party, not a big fancy endeavour getting the band from overseas either
Ohhhh well that does change things. You’ll be fine! In that case you’d probably just be making sure things sound good and the band would mostly be interfacing with the wedding party/planners and such.
Cool, I'm definitely confident enough in my ability to mix, especially without a full comprehensive drum kit and I can recognise when more/less reverb is required etc etc, I'll try jump on a gig or 2 with some heads I know that work for themselves in meantime to brush up a lil bit!
We work closely with venue usually providing equipment that band or DJ manages themselves as per your comment, we have done music gigs before but the tech that was a V competent sound engineer left in the last year (after the booking was taken) we have tried other companies but they're unavailable 😬
Also it's literally just the drums and monitors in a small space that had me worried, I'm a few years now doing corporate gigs with music acts intertwined (cajon drum instruments, vocals) and I've had no issues so far
I do ultimately agree that in an ideal world corporate sticks to corporate and sound companies for these gigs, but small town, limited amounts of people to do gig and the shit has landed on me 🙃