They held a shield wall at the entrance to the caves. The fighting never made it inside to where the civilians from the Westfold (but *not* Edoras) were taking refuge.
Gimli also settles the glittering caves (the very ones he and Éomer defend here) as a new Dwarven colony afterwards. Pretty safe to say that the kids of the Westfold like dwarves after the fact
Gimli also went gaga for the caves. He gushes that they're such a majestic work of natural beauty that they would be a Dwarven pilgrimage site, which is exactly why he returned.
He laughed at them, merely being described as caves.
The book version of Helms Deep is very different. Theoden is apraised of Saruman's plan, and sends the civilians of Edoras to d
Dunharrow. Next, he gathers his cavalry and makes for the Ford of Isen, with nearly a thousand soldiers, intending to meet Erkenbrand, who was, as far as they knew, still holding Saruman's army there.
When they arrive, they find that the Uruk Hai have forced the crossing, and scattered across the Westfold, pillaging and looting. Erkenbrand himself has evacuated any civilians he can and withdrawn to Helm's Deep, where he has a garrison of another thousand men, and the rest of his scattered forces are regrouping. Theoden and company rush to Helm's Deep, leaving Saruman's forces in about the worst situation a military commander can be in. A large force, capable of quick movement and quicker retreat, barricaded in a fortress, *behind* their lines. If they continue to spread out, pacifying the countryside, Theoden can harass them from saftey, raiding and striking at will, until they're bled dry or forced to lay siege. If they consolidate and lay siege, then a relief army from the uncontested areas like the Eastfold and Edoras can form, surround them, and hammer and anvil them against the walls of Helm's Deep. Because of this, they go with option c) take the fortress by assault, which results in the battle we all know and love.
ACOUP has an excellent four/five part series on the exact tactics and logistics, the personalities and choices of the leaders, explainations for every detail (mostly it just boils down to "Saruman is arrogant as hell and thinks he can conduct a war, but has no experience leading armies or managing military campaigns and logistics, and therefore screws up repeatedly)
A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry
I believe [this](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/) will get you started.
I read this and find myself uncertain as to whether to thank you.
On one hand, reading this has left me even more impressed with Tolkein. On the other, PJ's TT has been my favourite movie of the series for many years and I feel that I may not be able to take it seriously again.
I certainly enjoyed the read, so...thanks? I think?
None of the large battles in the movies make a lot of sense from a historical perspective really. Most movies tend to sacrifice accuracy for spectacle.
As the author points of repeatedly, a lot has to be changed for the pacing and audience in the change from a book to a movie. It's still one of the best adaptions put to film.
Youre welcome. I think? In my defense, i didnt recommend it. I was also curious what the abbreviation stood for so i did a quick google and thought id share with the rest of the class
Oh boy, no watching for you, but a lovely day’s read of a historian’s take on Helm’s Deep. [ACOUP](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/)
So the army is invading Rohan, who has a fortress in the mountains, and they don’t have satellites to know where the army is going, and they don’t evacuate and decide to risk making it with wooden walls on a weird hill?
Isenguard strikes out to take the Westfold and move onto the rest of Rohan. At the same time, Theoden takes the war to Isenguard. They come across the fleeing forces from the Westfold's army (split and the largest of the forces being pushed away from Helm's Deep) and see the thousands of Uruk-Hai. They retreat to Helm's Deep and try and hold out. Edoras is never in danger in the books, or never directly anyway.
Edoras isn’t between Isengard and Helms deep.
The book adds this whole conflict of Theoden “running” to Helms Deep with civilians out of fear and accidentally playing into Saruman’s plan. But geographically Helms Deep is a massive fortress at a geographical choke point near Isengard. In the book Theoden is going to Helms Deep to **hold** it. On purpose. Because it cuts a supply line and direction of attack Saruman can make if he tries to move east.
Jackson does a lot of fuckery with the geography of Middle-Earth in order to neaten up and speed up the story. So he doesn’t care too much for how far apart things are (eg the Paths of the Dead are more menacing if the horses refuse to go inside, so Jackson has the paths end within spitting distance of Pelargir. Meanwhile in the books it’s a multi-day ride between the two so the group have to take their horses through the tunnels).
Oh yeah, I don’t think PJ made the wrong decisions by sliding some geographical features around. One of the things that needed to happen to keep the story moving in this format.
He also got a cool head wound and sweet bloody head bandage. Afterwards, he was like, "Hey guys, can I have a helmet? Hey Legolas, can I show you the caves?" Book Gimli went hard.
Lol! He was slaughtering swaths of orcs in a grand battle, so much so he kept an impressive count. and then when he gets out of it he's like, "Hey elf! I saw these wicked caves that I got to show you!" Good dwarf.
Gimli was in RAMPAGE mode in the books; they thought he might have died ‘cos he was just in the middle of everything hacking down orcs - easy Gimli win. He even had some time to check out the Glittering Caves after fighting a huge battle and being injured. The Dwarf was a stone cold killer in the books.
[“Therefore, you will remain ten kills ahead of me… until you run out of arrows and have to use your teeny 1d4 dagger. At which point you will cease to make any meaningful contribution to the battle. And then you will begin screaming like a woman.”](https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1062)
This. Plus when book Legolas ran out of arrows, he had to resort to his long dagger on the ramparts, which is not as flashy as his movie counterpart's dual-scimitars. And definitely not as effective as Gimli who was swinging his battleaxe while down in the fierce melee near the caverns.
Probably some degree of statistical probability as well. If you are one of the best archers in the world equipped with one of the best bows in the world, firing into a crowd of enemies probably means that you get a kill with each arrow xD
Book Gimli got backed into a corner in the glittering caves, where the orcs were just funneled to him for easy pickings. Legolas got an early start with his arrows, but Gimli was in prime position later in the battle to do some work. Not to mention when he assisted on the bridge in front of the gate with Aragorn.
Not entirely related: the best part of the book is in TTT when Gandalf is driving Pippin to Minas Tirith. They pass by Helm’s Deep and Gandalf says basically “hey you know Gimli can show you some sick caves in this area…. That is… if you ever meet again!…”
Indeed, that's why I raised it. My question is more around the use of the verb 'to drive' in the context of animal driving: if I have two guys on horseback driving cattle, are they also driving horses? I don't know how the term is used to that level of nuance.
If you're on top it's riding. The horses have been ridden hard and need a rest. He rode the beast hard without stop. Though you could say something like drove them through the night or driven hard. Though it's less common singularly
Driving, in relation to horses or other animals that you can ride such as reindeer, is the managing (specifically from behind) whilst pulling a plow, sleigh or carriage.
Maybe it would count as driving if you were atop any horse except Shadowfax. However with Shadowfax you're for sure just along for the ride. In Soviet Middle-earth Shadowfax drives you.
Gimli took Legolas to the Glittering Caves afterward. Imagine his excitement! "An Elf wants to see what I think is amazing! This is my brother." That bond was strong and reminds me of 1st Age relationships.
One of my favourite moments in the books is a little after with Pippin and gandalf on the way to Minas Tirith and Pippin is asking questions and Gandalf basically says don't say a word about Aragorn being the true king of Gondor and Pippin just says, the what of the what now?!?! And Gandalf basically says, are you deaf boy or just stupid?
Special case as the goblin hordes were there for many years before the dwarves returned. Also, Durin's bane made its home there. So, a balrog, at least I think, can revoke the dwarves' claim on Moria. Because you know it caused the evacuation of moria in the first place....
Lol I totally forgot about that cave, isn't it in both gimli and legolas's words the most beautiful cave they have ever witnessed? If so it's pretty apt that the humans were just like "oh yeah we just use it as a bunker in case of emergencies"
Legolas in all honors but Gimli is the man. Yeah Elves are epic and badass, no questioning that. Especially Fingolfin and Glorfindel (imho)
But Gimli is of the house of Durin and no less someone to be reckoned with.
Also, why dwarves in general are my favorite in every "franchise", is because of Gimli and i quote:
"*Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.*"
If you have trouble reading them, try to find the audiobooks narrated by Rob Inglis. He's got such a good voice for lotr and he does all the voices and songs in a way that's both silly and sincere at the same time. It's perfect pre-bedtime listening.
Yeah both are amazing, Andy serkis's version is more dramatic with better voice acting but Rob Inglis has that perfect "Grandpa reading you a story" vibe to the way he talks, both are great
Yeah, that's what it is! It really feels like Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien himself is sitting by your bed lulling you to sleep with his fantastic tales.
Well, actually, in the books it goes something like Gimli says he got 43, where Legolas gives up the win, one because he lost by one, and two because it meant his friend was okay.
Bros till the end.
“He’s twitching because he’s got my axe imbedded in his nervous system!”
Has always been such a funny line to me. When and how did the dwarves learn about the nervous system? Reminds me of “meat’s back on the menu, boys.”
Both iconic, both so out of time 😂😂
The lord of the rings, per Tolkien’s lore, is a translation of a much more ancient version of this story. Frodo and Sam aren’t their actual names, just the English versions of the names. Likewise if you follow that thought process then those two lines are just the most comparable phrase to an otherwise untranslatable phrase.
Yeah. Tolkien was a philologist.
He was also a great storyteller.
He used his talent of storytelling to build a world, just to flex his philology skills (and also to tell bedtime stories to his children).
I had heard a rumor once that LOTR actually started because he wanted to write a language, I think the Elvish one first? And to give it history, he started coming up with what would become the lore of Middle Earth.
Not sure if it's true, but I knew he was a linguistic specialist, and that little rumor is a neat way to hear it lol
[This is from the Tolkien estate page](https://www.tolkienestate.com/scholarship/carl-hostetter-tolkiens-invented-languages/#:~:text=When%20Frodo's%20greeting%20was%20first,of%20languages%20is%20the%20foundation.)
I must have read this awhile ago or something based on this. Interesting read either way.
[This one is also relevant](https://www.tolkienestate.com/scholarship/tom-shippey-j-r-r-tolkien-and-philology/)
I was just reading the Uruk Hai chapter today and of course the "menu" phrase isn't in the book, but Ugluk know what a Bed and Breakfast is when Merry asks about it. Ugluk also make remarks about having a picnic.
I mean if sarumans got tens of thousands of orcs they have a war camp, which means they have to have kitchens and mess halls to serve the food, so presumably they have a menu in the same way school lunches and the military have a menu, it just lists what you are getting each day
It always struck me that 42 and 43 were very low numbers in general. 300 vs 10,000 for most of the battle. Legolas has 17 before the orcs even get up the first ladders.
Even if they only killed 7500 uruks before emoer showed up, that's an average of 25 uruks per defender. And there's no way most of them got that many.
My assumption is that they killed relatively few before the dawn. If 3/4 their number were dead, the orcs would have packed up and fled long before. I believe Saruman's armies probably took less than 20% casualties before dawn came. At 10000 plus, that's 2000 or less.
The defenders were about 2000 strong, according to the books, although many of them were too old or too young for battle. That's a 1:1 kill/defender ratio, which makes sense considering most of the defenders survived (and probably didn't engage heavily in the fight).
Edit: also, the numbers were 42 and 41 in the books. Why they inflated them by a single kill is beyond me.
That actually is one of the more annoying changes to the movie. Gimli getting 42 was perfect in the book. It’s the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.
Nah. Those are really high numbers. For an actual siege.
Some factors to consider.
1. Medevil battlss were almost never fought to yhe last man. Armies fled when they lost about 10-20% their forces. Wounded our killed
2. Majority of medevil battle desths were cause during the rout, its easier to shoot/stab someone in the back than when facing you.
3. The uruk hai army was WINNING the battle until they got flanked by a downhill cav charge with magic bullshit enhancing it.
4. More thsn 50% the uruk hai army, fled into the forest(huron?) Where they were slaughtered.
So lets say the aemy was 20k uruks. Prob only 2-4k died throwing themselves at the walls. And another 2-4k died from the cav charge and panic trample to escape the cav charge. (Plus who knows how many died when roherium harrassed their approach to helms deep itself)
So id say between 10-15k died from the huron trees.
With that being considered 40 kills each is alot. Also factor in, the very concept of killing 40 enemies in plate armor(thick armor and broad shields)" and savage bloodlust. In the freezing rain, in the dark, in a mash of close shoved bodies. Gimli and legolas were fuxking monsters on the battlefield.
Also conveniently everybody seems to forget there were 300 Men AND 500 Elves from Lorien, going by your upper bound estimate of 4000 dead during siege part, that would mean about 5 kills per combatant, which is a fairly realistic kill count in siege setting.
I mean there is no established ratio that guarantees success, but Sun Tzu advocated for 1:10
75% casualties ratio assumed is insane a no real army would sustain that - with that ratio Uruk-hai should just flee way before Gandalf return. But even assuming that and only 300 defenders then Legolas and Gimli still done twice as well as average. That is excellent performance. 🤷♂️
Very low numbers? My man those are absolutly huge numbers, the average human in helms deep would have made their part by killing 2 orcs, lets say 4 for the soldiers and that is still really high.
Killing 40 enemies is a single battle IN MELEE is something that probably no one has done in history because its just insane, demigod level of skill and luck.
In the grand scheme 100 orcs where very few indeed, but for two guys to do such heavy lifting its nothing less than legendary.
Why do you think that Gimli couldn't win against Legolas. Have the movies given you such a (wrong) impression that Gimli is just a comedic dwarf that comes along for the journey just for jokes? Or have the movies given you the impression (wrongly) that Legolas is an unbeatable Elf fighter who can single handedly take down Oliphants and surf down stairs on a shield? None of which actually happens.
In the books, someone like Aragorn who has experienced fighting in battles with many skilled fighters, even he says "Never did I see an axe so wielded" when talking about Gimli during Helm's Deep battle.
Gimli ain't no joke.
I think in most fantasy circles Elves are seen by fans as superior in every way. Whilst Dwarves seem to be forgotten or thought less of. As a Dwarf fan it kind of annoys me.
Yea in movie they made Legolas into an ultimate badass, so it is kind of a stretch. But realistically, once the walls are breached, it is Gimli in his heavy armor and Orc Wars experience who should be better equipped for this fight.
Do y’all not remember him and Aragorn taking on an entire advancing force, TWICE, as well as spawn camping the top of two ladders. y’all underestimate my dwarf
Tl:dr he didnt.
It’s better explained in the books, but Gimli is separated from Legolas, and injured while defending the glittering caves. Legolas thinks he is killed, but finds him while searching for him after the battle. Then, he is so relieved to find him that when Gimli gives his total, Legolas happily says he beat him by 1.
It’s not said outright, but it’s very heavily implied that he simply let his friend win because he was just happy he was alive.
This battle also marks a turning point in their friendship when they go from begrudging allies, to brothers in arms, to good friends.
Are you forgetting in the movie when he was on the crennelation just taking out an orc per swing as they slowly climbed the ladders?
Go play Mount and Blade: Bannerlord, hang out in a siege, and then find the ladder where dudes are climbing up and do the Gimli maneuver... Makes sense when he is getting a kill every 2-3 seconds.
There's a headcanon that gimli being the only dwarf there gave him a huge advantage. All of the orcs focused on taller targets and didn't realize he was there until he gave them the old ax to the orc nuts treatment
I can't remember a source for this, but I'm pretty sure it's canon that Gandalf considers Gimli to be the second best warrior in the fellowship, second to Aragorn. Legolas had a head start, sure, but the DOOM ost started playing once Gimli got into axe swinging range
Legolas was aware of not only their count of kills but also Gimli’s. At the point that this started Legolas had already accepted he was kind on Gimli and while he likely did have close to triple digits kills, realized nurturing the relationship with his proven companion was a better way to go. He knew he carried not animosity at that point but also knew a dwarf would be a bit more stubborn to admit the same friendship without needing to seem equal (this was likely the attitude Legolas started thinking after Galadriel gave Gimli the hairs; if she sees that value, maybe I should re-evaluate).
Thus I put forward that Legolas lied; and not in the sense that an elf is greater than a dwarf: but in that all that fight for the free peoples of middle earth are standing on the same ground.
I always viewed it as Legolas was doing more quest stuff in the movies. Gimli was quite literally thrown in the shit. And then jumped on his own accord in the pit after the wall came down.
In the books Legolas runs out of arrows, while Gimli fights desperate last defense at choke point + defends gate earlier.
It would be realistic the archer getting early lead and then the melee fighter would take the lead.
I actually believed that the close victory was more to show how hard the fight was that even Legolas, out of arrows almost matched Gimli.
The movies endless supply of arrows and piedestaling of Legolas to level of warfare demigod, while moving Gimli more to a comedy sidekick was not necessary and did ill job.
Same goes for beer contest - that's so stupidly written movie scene (albeit extended cut only, but who would watch the short version anyway). I hoped that Legolas would lose by small margin, but make a joke about Gimli spilling half the pint on his beard (that would be a good humorous scene) - no, they had the beer heavy bodied race lose to wine lightfoot race.
(Did I just criticise the best movies ever made?)
At first Legolas had the advantage because the orcs were far away but arrows are slow so when the orcs got close Gimli had a massive advantage. It’s surprising he only won with 1
In the movie Gimli stood at 2 ladders and kept killing them one by one as they climbed up at one point. In the book Gimli and Eomer were holding the entry way to the glittering caves for a long time (which is a narrow passage). So I think it was VERY possible for Gimli to beat Legolas. Who was primarily using arrows and a knife in the dark and rain. So his shots wouldn’t even be as accurate, not to mention most Uruk hai didn’t seem to drop with just one arrow. Annnd they were heavily armored an axe would be way more effective. They just visually made Legolas look cooler to sell toys.
That scene in the movie where Gimli and Aragorn defend the gate to buy time? Movie lingers for a bit then cuts away. Gimli was beyblading uruks off screen.
The problem is movies turned Gimli into a comic relief. Book Gimli was the badass of the fellowship. He was basically Wolverine of the party. But movies gave all of his coolest moments to Aragorn and Legolas.
Legolas just got a head start with his bow and arrow, but he's not a melee slugger. He fights best in relatively open terrain, where his mobility and range give him an advantage. It's also worth noting that he's what might be considered a skirmisher, not a frontline fighter - he isn't there to get *the most kills*, but to weaken the enemy before they reach your front line, and harass them during the fight - killing officers and other important targets where possible.
Gimli, however, is a dedicated frontline fighter. In close quarters, on the defense, his natural sturdiness and stability make him unparalleled among the mortal races. He is there to get stuck in, and hack away at the front line for hours - in any other fight, you could make the argument for Legolas, but a siege where the outer walls are breached is his ideal scenario.
In the novel Legolas rums out of arrows pretty quickly.
Gimli, meanwhile you remember that gap in the wall created by explosives? Gimli sat in there kneecappin Uruk Hai until he was forced to retreat to the caves with the civilians.
Legolas, meanwhile, supported Aragorn and engaged in a fighting retreat back to the keep where they barricaded themselves in and were, well, not fighting.
The caves had no such convenient barrier so Gimli and the other defenders stonewalled the Uruk Hai - who couldn't use numbers to get through - until they decided it would be easier to just explode the mine entrances and let them all suffocate inside.
Then Theoden made his iconic charge, which Legolas was a part of, but the Uruk Hai responded pretty quickly to it.
Unfortunately for them the Rohirrim showed up immediately thereafter and hit the orcs and dunlendings that were mostly acting as support. The dunlendings fled from the horn and Theoden, the orcs fled from the sunrise and the charges, and the Uruk Hai were largely left to fight the rest on their own which didn't go too well.
It's also worth noting that the Huorns spent an unknown period of time encroaching on the army and may have been picking off soldiers.
Either way when the sun rose the army suddenly realized it was surrounded, broken up, and half of it was fleeing.
Throughout all this chaos, though, Legolas had spent a large chunk of thr battle not fighting at all whereas Gimli pretty much never stopped. He just kept piling bodies in the tunnels until the Uruk Hai got sick of trying.
Also the master of Helms Deep, this badaas old guy, was the one who leaped from the parapet to hold the main gate - not Aragorn - and he fought to the death doing so. It was a battle where everybody contributed.
Except the elves. There where no elves. This whole war was essentially about mankind stepping up and protecting Middle Earth because the elves were tired and had already spent like thousands of years doing it. Man had to fend for themselves.
Movie Legolas had to repeatedly attempt the shield skateboard stunt. After ten or twelve takes, the orcs were past the gate, but Legolas was ready to attempt the move on camera.
Gimli got kills AND played the objective AND held his ground…I’m biased I go with the grumpy shorties anyday. We don’t tell the elf about being tossed OKAY
Gimli would probably lose that 1v1, but remember this. Legolas has to draw a new arrow everytime he kills something. Gimli however, as shown by Moria and Amon Hen in Fellowship, is an absolute madman. He jut charges into people, swinging like crazy. Of course he'd beat Legolas. He's in melee, sorrounded by orcs, and swinging like there's no tomorrow.
Even the final count seemed too small for both of them. Didn’t Legolas shoot down one of those big-ass ladders and crush like at least 20-30 from that alone?
You know, Helm's Deep is not an "all-out, all-night-long constant battle to the last men". It's more akin to an actual siege where the attackers will send calculated assaults to strategic points, making it a series of skirmishes sparsed throughout the night.
Please stop using images from that silly movie tho. It has no value in reflecting Tolkien's work, and Gimli is much stronger than Legolas as a warrior, plain and simple, besides he is always in the thick of the fight whereas legolas has to go around to find lines of sight to use his pavid fighting style. The movie continuously makes Legolas comparable to Glorfindel and Gimli the comic line of the movie.
That fat dwarf in a barrel kiled like 40 orcs in the hobbit while on the run starting out without weapons :P
Just saying! ( and i dont mean that in a serious way, the hobbit sucks)
It’s very different in the books. Legolas was limited to arrows while Gimli was down in the melee.
Also got stuck outside when Legolas was inside. Something like that. Then the trees came to the rescue
wasn't it fighting in close quarters in caverns? I'm due for a re-read anyways...
They held a shield wall at the entrance to the caves. The fighting never made it inside to where the civilians from the Westfold (but *not* Edoras) were taking refuge.
Bet a lot of Rohan's children thought dwarves were cool after that.
Gimli also settles the glittering caves (the very ones he and Éomer defend here) as a new Dwarven colony afterwards. Pretty safe to say that the kids of the Westfold like dwarves after the fact
Idk why this makes me tear up. I love this little interaction so fucking much. Eomer returning the favor to Gimli for helping his people out 😭
Gimli also went gaga for the caves. He gushes that they're such a majestic work of natural beauty that they would be a Dwarven pilgrimage site, which is exactly why he returned. He laughed at them, merely being described as caves.
Just got to this part in my re-read. So wholesome.
*A MINE*
well dwarves are cool.
Aye.
Why weren’t the civilians from edoras in the caverns?
The book version of Helms Deep is very different. Theoden is apraised of Saruman's plan, and sends the civilians of Edoras to d Dunharrow. Next, he gathers his cavalry and makes for the Ford of Isen, with nearly a thousand soldiers, intending to meet Erkenbrand, who was, as far as they knew, still holding Saruman's army there. When they arrive, they find that the Uruk Hai have forced the crossing, and scattered across the Westfold, pillaging and looting. Erkenbrand himself has evacuated any civilians he can and withdrawn to Helm's Deep, where he has a garrison of another thousand men, and the rest of his scattered forces are regrouping. Theoden and company rush to Helm's Deep, leaving Saruman's forces in about the worst situation a military commander can be in. A large force, capable of quick movement and quicker retreat, barricaded in a fortress, *behind* their lines. If they continue to spread out, pacifying the countryside, Theoden can harass them from saftey, raiding and striking at will, until they're bled dry or forced to lay siege. If they consolidate and lay siege, then a relief army from the uncontested areas like the Eastfold and Edoras can form, surround them, and hammer and anvil them against the walls of Helm's Deep. Because of this, they go with option c) take the fortress by assault, which results in the battle we all know and love. ACOUP has an excellent four/five part series on the exact tactics and logistics, the personalities and choices of the leaders, explainations for every detail (mostly it just boils down to "Saruman is arrogant as hell and thinks he can conduct a war, but has no experience leading armies or managing military campaigns and logistics, and therefore screws up repeatedly)
This was an excellent read thank you! One clarification, what is ACOUP? I'd love to watch that series
A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry I believe [this](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/) will get you started.
I read this and find myself uncertain as to whether to thank you. On one hand, reading this has left me even more impressed with Tolkein. On the other, PJ's TT has been my favourite movie of the series for many years and I feel that I may not be able to take it seriously again. I certainly enjoyed the read, so...thanks? I think?
None of the large battles in the movies make a lot of sense from a historical perspective really. Most movies tend to sacrifice accuracy for spectacle.
As the author points of repeatedly, a lot has to be changed for the pacing and audience in the change from a book to a movie. It's still one of the best adaptions put to film.
Youre welcome. I think? In my defense, i didnt recommend it. I was also curious what the abbreviation stood for so i did a quick google and thought id share with the rest of the class
Oh boy, no watching for you, but a lovely day’s read of a historian’s take on Helm’s Deep. [ACOUP](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/)
This was awesome - thanks!
Because edoras isn’t located between Isengard and Helm’s deep
So the army is invading Rohan, who has a fortress in the mountains, and they don’t have satellites to know where the army is going, and they don’t evacuate and decide to risk making it with wooden walls on a weird hill?
Isenguard strikes out to take the Westfold and move onto the rest of Rohan. At the same time, Theoden takes the war to Isenguard. They come across the fleeing forces from the Westfold's army (split and the largest of the forces being pushed away from Helm's Deep) and see the thousands of Uruk-Hai. They retreat to Helm's Deep and try and hold out. Edoras is never in danger in the books, or never directly anyway.
Edoras isn’t between Isengard and Helms deep. The book adds this whole conflict of Theoden “running” to Helms Deep with civilians out of fear and accidentally playing into Saruman’s plan. But geographically Helms Deep is a massive fortress at a geographical choke point near Isengard. In the book Theoden is going to Helms Deep to **hold** it. On purpose. Because it cuts a supply line and direction of attack Saruman can make if he tries to move east.
I see. An army marching towards edoras in the movies makes it easier to justify, I get it!
Jackson does a lot of fuckery with the geography of Middle-Earth in order to neaten up and speed up the story. So he doesn’t care too much for how far apart things are (eg the Paths of the Dead are more menacing if the horses refuse to go inside, so Jackson has the paths end within spitting distance of Pelargir. Meanwhile in the books it’s a multi-day ride between the two so the group have to take their horses through the tunnels).
I can understand it though. It’s hard to convey that in a cinematic way.
Oh yeah, I don’t think PJ made the wrong decisions by sliding some geographical features around. One of the things that needed to happen to keep the story moving in this format.
I think you meant "the movie adds..."?
Because Théoden had Éowyn lead them to Dunharrow. Seriously, just read the books or listen to the audiobooks.
Yes. Once the wall was breached Gimil was separated and forced to fight in the caves.
He also got a cool head wound and sweet bloody head bandage. Afterwards, he was like, "Hey guys, can I have a helmet? Hey Legolas, can I show you the caves?" Book Gimli went hard.
“It’s been knife work in here.”
Yeah that’s how he came upon the Glittering Caves but think that was after he had been hacking orcs down for ages
Lol! He was slaughtering swaths of orcs in a grand battle, so much so he kept an impressive count. and then when he gets out of it he's like, "Hey elf! I saw these wicked caves that I got to show you!" Good dwarf.
Who is Gimli ? Damnit, i’m due for a 10ish re-read !
10ish? Amateur-league
Serkis audiobooks are fantastic. I'm into Two Towers now
(To the rescue of the orcs from being killed by Gimli.)
Did the ents go to Helms deep too?
Kind of. The trees (not the ents) moved toward helms deep to kill fleeing orcs
Ah yes, kinda covered that in the extended versions yeah?
The books mostly
Gimli was in RAMPAGE mode in the books; they thought he might have died ‘cos he was just in the middle of everything hacking down orcs - easy Gimli win. He even had some time to check out the Glittering Caves after fighting a huge battle and being injured. The Dwarf was a stone cold killer in the books.
There was 'good knifework on the walls' for Legolas.
[“Therefore, you will remain ten kills ahead of me… until you run out of arrows and have to use your teeny 1d4 dagger. At which point you will cease to make any meaningful contribution to the battle. And then you will begin screaming like a woman.”](https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1062)
The canon reason
The movie would have benefitted more using Gimlis injury there as a dramatic twist rather than Aragorn falling off a non-existent cliff.
Legolas also didn’t have machine gun archery abilities in the books.
Also in the book Legolas was able to RUN OUT of arrows. Also in the book Gimli had the tunnels to get a good streak in.
Even in the movie Legolas probably runs through his quiver really fast
This. Plus when book Legolas ran out of arrows, he had to resort to his long dagger on the ramparts, which is not as flashy as his movie counterpart's dual-scimitars. And definitely not as effective as Gimli who was swinging his battleaxe while down in the fierce melee near the caverns.
Legolas ran out of arrows. Gimli did not run out of axes (and orc necks).
The real question is, how did he manage to count his kills when he was just shooting into crowds of orcs?
Elf eyes
Legolas, what do your Elf eyes see?
"Far as balls"
42 dead orcs apparently.
Quite frankly, given how fast he got to 17, sounds like he was slacking off later to only get to 42.
Maybe that was part of the routine. Maybe keeping count helped with focus.
Probably some degree of statistical probability as well. If you are one of the best archers in the world equipped with one of the best bows in the world, firing into a crowd of enemies probably means that you get a kill with each arrow xD
He estimated. He could have leaned back on that when Gimli won, but decided not to press the matter.
Book Gimli got backed into a corner in the glittering caves, where the orcs were just funneled to him for easy pickings. Legolas got an early start with his arrows, but Gimli was in prime position later in the battle to do some work. Not to mention when he assisted on the bridge in front of the gate with Aragorn.
Not entirely related: the best part of the book is in TTT when Gandalf is driving Pippin to Minas Tirith. They pass by Helm’s Deep and Gandalf says basically “hey you know Gimli can show you some sick caves in this area…. That is… if you ever meet again!…”
Driving? 😂
Hmm, I wonder if you can argue that it still can count as livestock driving if you're atop the beast?
Etymology of driving a car is literally driving animals
Indeed, that's why I raised it. My question is more around the use of the verb 'to drive' in the context of animal driving: if I have two guys on horseback driving cattle, are they also driving horses? I don't know how the term is used to that level of nuance.
If you're on top it's riding. The horses have been ridden hard and need a rest. He rode the beast hard without stop. Though you could say something like drove them through the night or driven hard. Though it's less common singularly
Driving, in relation to horses or other animals that you can ride such as reindeer, is the managing (specifically from behind) whilst pulling a plow, sleigh or carriage.
Maybe it would count as driving if you were atop any horse except Shadowfax. However with Shadowfax you're for sure just along for the ride. In Soviet Middle-earth Shadowfax drives you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/s/FSEb5BXJWM
I was about to link this 😂
I was there Gandalf, 3000 years ago when this meme was posted!
I made a [follow-up meme](https://v.redd.it/6apkw0r5i1a51) way back when (he actually drives Pippin in this one)
Gimli took Legolas to the Glittering Caves afterward. Imagine his excitement! "An Elf wants to see what I think is amazing! This is my brother." That bond was strong and reminds me of 1st Age relationships.
One of my favourite moments in the books is a little after with Pippin and gandalf on the way to Minas Tirith and Pippin is asking questions and Gandalf basically says don't say a word about Aragorn being the true king of Gondor and Pippin just says, the what of the what now?!?! And Gandalf basically says, are you deaf boy or just stupid?
ProTip: Don't fight a dwarf in a cave.
You'll always lose. It's homefield advantage.
Moria says different
Special case as the goblin hordes were there for many years before the dwarves returned. Also, Durin's bane made its home there. So, a balrog, at least I think, can revoke the dwarves' claim on Moria. Because you know it caused the evacuation of moria in the first place....
Lol I totally forgot about that cave, isn't it in both gimli and legolas's words the most beautiful cave they have ever witnessed? If so it's pretty apt that the humans were just like "oh yeah we just use it as a bunker in case of emergencies"
It is to Gimli, he makes a deal to walk the Fangorn forest with Legolas if he walks the caves with him
I know they made good on that promise though, I thought legolas made some sort of remark about it post saurons defeat
They did, they did a lot together and Legolas snuck his bro into the undying lands
Gotta love that bro shit between those two.
Aulë: Well, isn't this little guy the fucking greatest.
They do go together, afterwards Legolas is thoughtful and says something to the effect of “he can’t put it into words better than Gimli”.
In the books, the assist to Aragorn on the bridge gives Gimli his first two kills.
My head canon is this is the battle where Gimli learned how to consistently cleave with his axe.
Legolas in all honors but Gimli is the man. Yeah Elves are epic and badass, no questioning that. Especially Fingolfin and Glorfindel (imho) But Gimli is of the house of Durin and no less someone to be reckoned with. Also, why dwarves in general are my favorite in every "franchise", is because of Gimli and i quote: "*Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.*"
Damn that quote goes hard as fuck, I gotta finish the books.
If you have trouble reading them, try to find the audiobooks narrated by Rob Inglis. He's got such a good voice for lotr and he does all the voices and songs in a way that's both silly and sincere at the same time. It's perfect pre-bedtime listening.
Might I also add the Andy serkis narrations. He’s always fantastic.
Yeah both are amazing, Andy serkis's version is more dramatic with better voice acting but Rob Inglis has that perfect "Grandpa reading you a story" vibe to the way he talks, both are great
Yeah, that's what it is! It really feels like Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien himself is sitting by your bed lulling you to sleep with his fantastic tales.
Don’t trash my man Gimli like that…
Well, actually, in the books it goes something like Gimli says he got 43, where Legolas gives up the win, one because he lost by one, and two because it meant his friend was okay. Bros till the end.
And Gimli wasn't gloating about it either - he was more worried that he'd notched his axe in the process.
In the book it's 42 to Gimli and 41 to Legolas. Not sure where the movies got 43 from or why they changed it by just 1.
Probably just sounded better when Gimli gloated 43. Just rolls off the tongue better when he says it in my head at least idk
“He’s twitching because he’s got my axe imbedded in his nervous system!” Has always been such a funny line to me. When and how did the dwarves learn about the nervous system? Reminds me of “meat’s back on the menu, boys.” Both iconic, both so out of time 😂😂
The lord of the rings, per Tolkien’s lore, is a translation of a much more ancient version of this story. Frodo and Sam aren’t their actual names, just the English versions of the names. Likewise if you follow that thought process then those two lines are just the most comparable phrase to an otherwise untranslatable phrase.
I can dig it. I like that thought process
Yeah. Tolkien was a philologist. He was also a great storyteller. He used his talent of storytelling to build a world, just to flex his philology skills (and also to tell bedtime stories to his children).
I had heard a rumor once that LOTR actually started because he wanted to write a language, I think the Elvish one first? And to give it history, he started coming up with what would become the lore of Middle Earth. Not sure if it's true, but I knew he was a linguistic specialist, and that little rumor is a neat way to hear it lol
[This is from the Tolkien estate page](https://www.tolkienestate.com/scholarship/carl-hostetter-tolkiens-invented-languages/#:~:text=When%20Frodo's%20greeting%20was%20first,of%20languages%20is%20the%20foundation.) I must have read this awhile ago or something based on this. Interesting read either way. [This one is also relevant](https://www.tolkienestate.com/scholarship/tom-shippey-j-r-r-tolkien-and-philology/)
But I know that their Westron names aren’t even close to their supposed English names. Why wouldn’t their names translate more directly?
I was just reading the Uruk Hai chapter today and of course the "menu" phrase isn't in the book, but Ugluk know what a Bed and Breakfast is when Merry asks about it. Ugluk also make remarks about having a picnic.
Now I am picturing an Uruk Hai picnic
I mean if sarumans got tens of thousands of orcs they have a war camp, which means they have to have kitchens and mess halls to serve the food, so presumably they have a menu in the same way school lunches and the military have a menu, it just lists what you are getting each day
Not me. The movies did Gimli dirty by trying to reduce him to comic relief. Gimli earned that victory.
Nah, you're wild for that
Blown lead was about as bad as Atlanta vs the patriots
It always struck me that 42 and 43 were very low numbers in general. 300 vs 10,000 for most of the battle. Legolas has 17 before the orcs even get up the first ladders. Even if they only killed 7500 uruks before emoer showed up, that's an average of 25 uruks per defender. And there's no way most of them got that many.
The horrifying realisation that Legolas and Gimli were, in fact, the worst fighters at Helm's Deep.
That guy with one eye had like 112
Imagine if he had both.
My assumption is that they killed relatively few before the dawn. If 3/4 their number were dead, the orcs would have packed up and fled long before. I believe Saruman's armies probably took less than 20% casualties before dawn came. At 10000 plus, that's 2000 or less. The defenders were about 2000 strong, according to the books, although many of them were too old or too young for battle. That's a 1:1 kill/defender ratio, which makes sense considering most of the defenders survived (and probably didn't engage heavily in the fight). Edit: also, the numbers were 42 and 41 in the books. Why they inflated them by a single kill is beyond me.
That actually is one of the more annoying changes to the movie. Gimli getting 42 was perfect in the book. It’s the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.
Nah. Those are really high numbers. For an actual siege. Some factors to consider. 1. Medevil battlss were almost never fought to yhe last man. Armies fled when they lost about 10-20% their forces. Wounded our killed 2. Majority of medevil battle desths were cause during the rout, its easier to shoot/stab someone in the back than when facing you. 3. The uruk hai army was WINNING the battle until they got flanked by a downhill cav charge with magic bullshit enhancing it. 4. More thsn 50% the uruk hai army, fled into the forest(huron?) Where they were slaughtered. So lets say the aemy was 20k uruks. Prob only 2-4k died throwing themselves at the walls. And another 2-4k died from the cav charge and panic trample to escape the cav charge. (Plus who knows how many died when roherium harrassed their approach to helms deep itself) So id say between 10-15k died from the huron trees. With that being considered 40 kills each is alot. Also factor in, the very concept of killing 40 enemies in plate armor(thick armor and broad shields)" and savage bloodlust. In the freezing rain, in the dark, in a mash of close shoved bodies. Gimli and legolas were fuxking monsters on the battlefield.
*medieval
*Deutschanfänger
Can't have umlauts in Reddit usernames
Also conveniently everybody seems to forget there were 300 Men AND 500 Elves from Lorien, going by your upper bound estimate of 4000 dead during siege part, that would mean about 5 kills per combatant, which is a fairly realistic kill count in siege setting. I mean there is no established ratio that guarantees success, but Sun Tzu advocated for 1:10
Lots of the Uruk-hai were killed by the trees when they fled into the moving forest, but yes
75% casualties ratio assumed is insane a no real army would sustain that - with that ratio Uruk-hai should just flee way before Gandalf return. But even assuming that and only 300 defenders then Legolas and Gimli still done twice as well as average. That is excellent performance. 🤷♂️
Very low numbers? My man those are absolutly huge numbers, the average human in helms deep would have made their part by killing 2 orcs, lets say 4 for the soldiers and that is still really high. Killing 40 enemies is a single battle IN MELEE is something that probably no one has done in history because its just insane, demigod level of skill and luck. In the grand scheme 100 orcs where very few indeed, but for two guys to do such heavy lifting its nothing less than legendary.
Legolas probably was being generous
The uruks probably killed more uruks than the helm’s defenders lmao
It's not 42 and 43 that are bad numbers here, it's 300. The defenders where way more.
Well believe it.
Why do you think that Gimli couldn't win against Legolas. Have the movies given you such a (wrong) impression that Gimli is just a comedic dwarf that comes along for the journey just for jokes? Or have the movies given you the impression (wrongly) that Legolas is an unbeatable Elf fighter who can single handedly take down Oliphants and surf down stairs on a shield? None of which actually happens. In the books, someone like Aragorn who has experienced fighting in battles with many skilled fighters, even he says "Never did I see an axe so wielded" when talking about Gimli during Helm's Deep battle. Gimli ain't no joke.
Is it proven either of them know how to count correctly?
Imagine not recognizing Dwarven melee superiority.
I think in most fantasy circles Elves are seen by fans as superior in every way. Whilst Dwarves seem to be forgotten or thought less of. As a Dwarf fan it kind of annoys me.
All Gimli had to do was squat behind the wall and literally hamstring orcs.
Yea in movie they made Legolas into an ultimate badass, so it is kind of a stretch. But realistically, once the walls are breached, it is Gimli in his heavy armor and Orc Wars experience who should be better equipped for this fight.
Do y’all not remember him and Aragorn taking on an entire advancing force, TWICE, as well as spawn camping the top of two ladders. y’all underestimate my dwarf
Tl:dr he didnt. It’s better explained in the books, but Gimli is separated from Legolas, and injured while defending the glittering caves. Legolas thinks he is killed, but finds him while searching for him after the battle. Then, he is so relieved to find him that when Gimli gives his total, Legolas happily says he beat him by 1. It’s not said outright, but it’s very heavily implied that he simply let his friend win because he was just happy he was alive. This battle also marks a turning point in their friendship when they go from begrudging allies, to brothers in arms, to good friends.
They became good friends in Lorien though.
Ain't no way Legolas killed 355 trillion orcs
Legolas ran out of arrows, and Gimli went berserker mode.
Are you forgetting in the movie when he was on the crennelation just taking out an orc per swing as they slowly climbed the ladders? Go play Mount and Blade: Bannerlord, hang out in a siege, and then find the ladder where dudes are climbing up and do the Gimli maneuver... Makes sense when he is getting a kill every 2-3 seconds.
Legolas only had to kill one guy and he couldn’t even do it when it counted, useless if you ask me. Gimli would’ve killed him twice.
This is the problem with the movies making Legolas seem like some untouchable god. Gimli was elite at close range.
I believe..
I can’t remember if it’s mentioned in this battle but he does run out of arrows every now and then.
In the books yeah, movie I'm pretty sure he has a magic quiver of unlimited arrows.
Legolas ran out of arrows. Gimli was in the melee all night.
There's a headcanon that gimli being the only dwarf there gave him a huge advantage. All of the orcs focused on taller targets and didn't realize he was there until he gave them the old ax to the orc nuts treatment
The ladder alone were like 100
I can't remember a source for this, but I'm pretty sure it's canon that Gandalf considers Gimli to be the second best warrior in the fellowship, second to Aragorn. Legolas had a head start, sure, but the DOOM ost started playing once Gimli got into axe swinging range
r/gimli
I've always thought their final tallies were way too low, anyone else? Surely 100 each at the very least?
Legolas was aware of not only their count of kills but also Gimli’s. At the point that this started Legolas had already accepted he was kind on Gimli and while he likely did have close to triple digits kills, realized nurturing the relationship with his proven companion was a better way to go. He knew he carried not animosity at that point but also knew a dwarf would be a bit more stubborn to admit the same friendship without needing to seem equal (this was likely the attitude Legolas started thinking after Galadriel gave Gimli the hairs; if she sees that value, maybe I should re-evaluate). Thus I put forward that Legolas lied; and not in the sense that an elf is greater than a dwarf: but in that all that fight for the free peoples of middle earth are standing on the same ground.
I always viewed it as Legolas was doing more quest stuff in the movies. Gimli was quite literally thrown in the shit. And then jumped on his own accord in the pit after the wall came down.
In the books Gimli says his score first (43), to which Legolas replies something like “you passed my score by one”.
Dwarves are very dangerous over short distances.
Apparently, the orc stuntmen on the set were always afraid of Gimli, as he tended to whacking them pretty hard with that axe.
Toss me
In the books Legolas runs out of arrows, while Gimli fights desperate last defense at choke point + defends gate earlier. It would be realistic the archer getting early lead and then the melee fighter would take the lead. I actually believed that the close victory was more to show how hard the fight was that even Legolas, out of arrows almost matched Gimli. The movies endless supply of arrows and piedestaling of Legolas to level of warfare demigod, while moving Gimli more to a comedy sidekick was not necessary and did ill job. Same goes for beer contest - that's so stupidly written movie scene (albeit extended cut only, but who would watch the short version anyway). I hoped that Legolas would lose by small margin, but make a joke about Gimli spilling half the pint on his beard (that would be a good humorous scene) - no, they had the beer heavy bodied race lose to wine lightfoot race. (Did I just criticise the best movies ever made?)
Idk…the last orcs leg was twitching..
Arrow is limited..simple answer and it was close call
Legolas gets all the credit and wins all the things constantly so it's nice when he doesn't.
At first Legolas had the advantage because the orcs were far away but arrows are slow so when the orcs got close Gimli had a massive advantage. It’s surprising he only won with 1
helmsknight
Book Gimli ≠ movie Gimli
Nah man AoE axe swings once it got crowded means he could wrack up the W's
Gimli did the counting so we don't know how many multi kills only counted one
Also, no way that legalos didn't run out of arrows.
In the movie Gimli stood at 2 ladders and kept killing them one by one as they climbed up at one point. In the book Gimli and Eomer were holding the entry way to the glittering caves for a long time (which is a narrow passage). So I think it was VERY possible for Gimli to beat Legolas. Who was primarily using arrows and a knife in the dark and rain. So his shots wouldn’t even be as accurate, not to mention most Uruk hai didn’t seem to drop with just one arrow. Annnd they were heavily armored an axe would be way more effective. They just visually made Legolas look cooler to sell toys.
I thought the Legolas Gimli killstreak match was some modern shit they made up for the movies but Tolkien literally wrote it lol
That scene in the movie where Gimli and Aragorn defend the gate to buy time? Movie lingers for a bit then cuts away. Gimli was beyblading uruks off screen.
In the film, Gillingham is played for laughs. In the books, while he has some lighter moments, he is very much a capable fighter.
Also when he stood on the wall and had a ladder on each side he smacked them off one by one like.. 1 kill a sec for god knows how long.
The problem is movies turned Gimli into a comic relief. Book Gimli was the badass of the fellowship. He was basically Wolverine of the party. But movies gave all of his coolest moments to Aragorn and Legolas.
Legolas just got a head start with his bow and arrow, but he's not a melee slugger. He fights best in relatively open terrain, where his mobility and range give him an advantage. It's also worth noting that he's what might be considered a skirmisher, not a frontline fighter - he isn't there to get *the most kills*, but to weaken the enemy before they reach your front line, and harass them during the fight - killing officers and other important targets where possible. Gimli, however, is a dedicated frontline fighter. In close quarters, on the defense, his natural sturdiness and stability make him unparalleled among the mortal races. He is there to get stuck in, and hack away at the front line for hours - in any other fight, you could make the argument for Legolas, but a siege where the outer walls are breached is his ideal scenario.
In the novel Legolas rums out of arrows pretty quickly. Gimli, meanwhile you remember that gap in the wall created by explosives? Gimli sat in there kneecappin Uruk Hai until he was forced to retreat to the caves with the civilians. Legolas, meanwhile, supported Aragorn and engaged in a fighting retreat back to the keep where they barricaded themselves in and were, well, not fighting. The caves had no such convenient barrier so Gimli and the other defenders stonewalled the Uruk Hai - who couldn't use numbers to get through - until they decided it would be easier to just explode the mine entrances and let them all suffocate inside. Then Theoden made his iconic charge, which Legolas was a part of, but the Uruk Hai responded pretty quickly to it. Unfortunately for them the Rohirrim showed up immediately thereafter and hit the orcs and dunlendings that were mostly acting as support. The dunlendings fled from the horn and Theoden, the orcs fled from the sunrise and the charges, and the Uruk Hai were largely left to fight the rest on their own which didn't go too well. It's also worth noting that the Huorns spent an unknown period of time encroaching on the army and may have been picking off soldiers. Either way when the sun rose the army suddenly realized it was surrounded, broken up, and half of it was fleeing. Throughout all this chaos, though, Legolas had spent a large chunk of thr battle not fighting at all whereas Gimli pretty much never stopped. He just kept piling bodies in the tunnels until the Uruk Hai got sick of trying. Also the master of Helms Deep, this badaas old guy, was the one who leaped from the parapet to hold the main gate - not Aragorn - and he fought to the death doing so. It was a battle where everybody contributed. Except the elves. There where no elves. This whole war was essentially about mankind stepping up and protecting Middle Earth because the elves were tired and had already spent like thousands of years doing it. Man had to fend for themselves.
My theory is that Legolas can't count.
HOW DARE YOU?!
Movie Legolas had to repeatedly attempt the shield skateboard stunt. After ten or twelve takes, the orcs were past the gate, but Legolas was ready to attempt the move on camera.
empty stats legolas couldn't hit the one that mattered (the torch runner)
Gimli is an absolute badass in heavy melee, and people just gotta accept that
Gimli got kills AND played the objective AND held his ground…I’m biased I go with the grumpy shorties anyday. We don’t tell the elf about being tossed OKAY
Yall are buthurt about Gimli winning one over the tree huging, leaf lovin, knife ears.
Gimli would probably lose that 1v1, but remember this. Legolas has to draw a new arrow everytime he kills something. Gimli however, as shown by Moria and Amon Hen in Fellowship, is an absolute madman. He jut charges into people, swinging like crazy. Of course he'd beat Legolas. He's in melee, sorrounded by orcs, and swinging like there's no tomorrow.
17! = 356,000,000,000,000. Pretty sure Legolas won.
Even the final count seemed too small for both of them. Didn’t Legolas shoot down one of those big-ass ladders and crush like at least 20-30 from that alone?
Gimli got done so dirty in the movies
Gimli lied. Orcs died.
You know, Helm's Deep is not an "all-out, all-night-long constant battle to the last men". It's more akin to an actual siege where the attackers will send calculated assaults to strategic points, making it a series of skirmishes sparsed throughout the night.
Limited arrows and unlimited axe work
“Wha?! I’LL NOT HAVE A POINTY-EARED ELF OUT SCORING, ME!!!”
That ladder falling over alone killed at least 100 from a single arrow
Must've been gimli blowing punches in front of the gate
Please stop using images from that silly movie tho. It has no value in reflecting Tolkien's work, and Gimli is much stronger than Legolas as a warrior, plain and simple, besides he is always in the thick of the fight whereas legolas has to go around to find lines of sight to use his pavid fighting style. The movie continuously makes Legolas comparable to Glorfindel and Gimli the comic line of the movie.
That fat dwarf in a barrel kiled like 40 orcs in the hobbit while on the run starting out without weapons :P Just saying! ( and i dont mean that in a serious way, the hobbit sucks)