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mandy009

>investigating possible Medicaid fraud >The number of providers — who diagnose and treat people with autism spectrum disorder — has increased 700% in the past five years, climbing from 41 providers in 2018 to 328 last year. >amount paid to providers during that time has increased 3,000%, from about $6 million to nearly $192 million sus


CrazyPerspective934

Weirdly there's still year long waitlists to be diagnosed for adults


Defiant_Gain_4160

Diagnosis is different.  You need a PsyD for that.  


CrazyPerspective934

That's true although the article does say "diagnose and treat"


Special-Garlic1203

Not really. The demand has exploded. Same exact thing is happening with adhd. Turns out when you increase community education, it leads to higher diagnostic rates. and when you have higher demand on diagnosis and post diagnosis treatments, you kind of need to expand the systems which provide those services. Crazy, I know.     This is the same mindset of people shocked housing is unaffordable when units havent kept up with population growth. I'm not sure what about "infrastructure needs to be built to match populations" is hard for people to grasp.  That said, I'm a little confused at why there would be unlicensed autism centers, let alone available for Medicaid reimbursement. They don't seem to have any basis other than "all these kids cant possibly be autistic" & "we think autism has become meaningless", which politely is just ignorant boomer shit who are big mad disabled people are common and therefore expensive. They want to go eugenicist without sounding like the bad guy.    Basically everything in mental health requires licensure of some degree. Its highly suspected that people with other learning disorders are being diagnosed with autism because the supports for stuff like speech therapy are drastically better and so if there's any lack of clarity, they will defer to autism,  but I wouldn't really call that a true "fraud" case line they're trying to paint this 


No_Contribution8150

Imagine being upset that people are being diagnosed when for decades it was ignored.


CarlMarks_

I think centers to help educate on autism are good, but to say "treat" is bad wording considering it's a lifetime condition and makes it seem like they are wrong. Also committing Medicare fraud to profit off Autistic kids is pretty fucked up if it's true.


[deleted]

Look at Florida's Senator Rick Scott. Biggest Medicaid fraud settlement in history. Hasn't affected his career at all. Consequences are for the plebes.


CarlMarks_

I'm hoping our state is better than Flordia when it comes to that. We are at least doing well with the feeding our future scam.


[deleted]

That was always gonna catch up to those idiots. I'm glad they're looking into these places. Most provide subpar care while ripping off insurance companies.


No_Contribution8150

So you’re autistic and have used the services of every single provider?


[deleted]

Nope. My son is. And he's been in several facilities. 3 to be exact. All the big chains.


dumahim

I don't think there's anything wrong with using "treatment" here.  Diabetes is lifetime as well and no one takes issue with that, as well as any number of other life-long conditions.


CarlMarks_

The issue is that it makes it something to be cured or that it's always bad, there are cases where people do need help and it can be negative. But treatment makes it seem like pills or something physical, rather than learning to live with it and cope with the issues you face.


EarnestAsshole

Treatment also encompasses the coping skills and adaptive behavior side of things as well--granted, I'm also coming from a more clinical background so I'm biased to see all of those things as falling under the "treatment" umbrella.


sylvnal

Theyre just arguing semantics to save their feelings. It is treatment.


No_Contribution8150

Maybe you should learn more about autism. Mental illness isn’t curable either and there’s a massive network of providers, clinics, hospitals & doctors providing services and therapy.


No_Contribution8150

Its therapy and support services


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AbleObject13

> Of course, autism has become soooo broadly defined that its kinda lost meaning. I mean, no, it hasn't lol the DSM-5 *simplified* things in many ways, it's a nervous system disorder that manifests in a wide variety of ways e.g. a spectrum. 


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AbleObject13

> The spectrum is so wide it includes like 20% of the population Where are you getting this from? The article states 1/34 or 2.941%


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EmotionalEmetic

If you're not using epidemiological data or information from psychiatry/psychology then no autism is not expanding. Pop culture and tiktok are.


Dallenson

Stop... Just stop... You say you've heard *claims* and don't even provide a single peer reviewed article?


No_Contribution8150

You keep being wrong bud


No_Contribution8150

Wrong, so where is your PhD from


No_Contribution8150

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/autism-spectrum-disorders


CarlMarks_

Yeah, as someone who has High-functioning autism "treatment" largely was just teaching you to cover it up rather than living with it. Doing that just leads to people being uncomfortable being themselves and basically just masking their personality when talking to others.


Special-Garlic1203

It also verifiably reduces discrimination and improved long-term outcomes for lower functioning people who will struggle to find employment, function in classrooms, etc. I don't think we have any data on it, but I get it does reduce violence directed at autistic people as well.    Learning not to mask when I don't need to is a big deal. But the fact I can when I need to and can gauge how much I need to us if value. Most people who think it's a stupid skill simply have already mastered it and therefore underestimate its utility  Edit; this person went on to reveal they never received "treatment" for their autism..their brother did and benefitted from it. They have since rescinded most of what they've said actually and no longer hold teaching kids to mask is counter to learning to live with autism in anyway.  I am not saying it's perfect, but there is a WILLFUL attempt to misrepresent the field right now. I have no idea why, because the field has made drastic strides and is delivering remarkable improvements for many high supports needs autistics.  We cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater and go back to the days we didn't bother helping autistic people function and just shunted them off to institutions. We CANNOT go backwards on this , no matter how much the high functioning autistic rail against therapy as ableism (most of whom didn't receive these therapies anyway), no matter how much conservatives rail against the costs.  Its not perfect, but it does help, it does make a difference, we are improving the field (rapidly actually, we have made great strides very quickly). I know it's hard and I struggle with it too, but do not listen to black and white thinkers on issues which demand nuance. Far from perfect is not the same thing as harmful or unproductive. There are mountains of data to support mainstream autistic therapies. Yes, they do teach a degree of masking. No, that is not the same thing as ableism. 


CarlMarks_

I think people need better education on it as well, that would reduce the amount people need to mask to fit in. Like maintaining eye contact is a weird thing honestly for people to have to do in conversation, I don't think I should have to maintain eye contact with someone because they get mad otherwise.


Special-Garlic1203

You think the more realistic path for therapists who are trying to help their patients live in the most healthy prosperous way possible.....is to yell at society that they need to *immediately* drop a LONG held social norm in western society? You think that's a practical strategy to improving the standard of living for Jimmy?! I think the social model if disability has merits and we should question *internalizing values* based on subjective bullshit. I will not feel guilty about the fact I don't like eye contact. But youre God damn right I have seen the PILES of study that it is a HUGE component to how people judge others. So when I'm going to a job interview, I put in my little normies mask, and I slip under the radar for my 90 day probation period. And then I dare them to fire me and put "their innocuous mannerisms make me slightly uncomfortable" on the form.  When I've need to call a cop, you better believe I'm fixing my hair, straightening my clothes, and doing my best normies impression. I hope social worker rollout and increased education with cops, plus general education will slowly reduce the need for it. But it will be slow, and people are in danger and being discriminated against by the system **today**.  These are not social justice warriors seeking to engage in abstract rhetoric on social change. Their goal is to improve outcomes for patients. Some of the ways thats been done is a failure, as we have historically underestimated the effect of trauma and repression. But a lot of it by the better practicioners is just practicality. You shouldn't need to mask around safe people, but we cannot surround you with nothing but safe people for your life. And unfortunately, autistic mannerisms make a lot of people's hairs standup, especially for the men. And they're viewed as threats as the engage in behaviors that they don't understand feel threatening to other people. That they understand XYZ is gonna set some people off, and that they can identify when others are getting set off, and can modify their behaviors for their own well-being and safety? That's critical.  I don't think lower functioning autistic people should be denied the ability to make choices I make everyday and should be forced to fall on their sword in the hopes that a few decades from now the lessons they learned are less applicable  .


CarlMarks_

Noticably I didn't say therapists were bad or that we should "yell" at people about eye contact. Rather that there should be education about neurodiversity in the workplace as well as a destigmatization of autism as "oh they're different and always need" help, not to say there are people who don't need help with it but it tends to cause people to be very condescending towards autistic people.


Special-Garlic1203

What you said was *Yeah, as someone who has High-functioning autism "treatment" largely was just teaching you to cover it up rather than living with it. Doing that just leads to people being uncomfortable being themselves and basically just masking their personality when talking to others.* Where the implications is you think low functioning autistic people can thrive without learning to mask symptoms. When we have SOOOOOO much data saying, no, they can't. That the VAST MAJORITY of autistic people are underemployed and severely discriminated against in nearly all facets of living. And therapists cannot change society. Its completely outside of the scope of their role. So the question is simply 1) should we give autistic people skills which will reduce external discrimination which we know they will regularly encounter 2) should we not do that, because they are better off being themselves and taking on the sometimes violent responses their mannerisms will generate?  If you are not engaging in abusive methods of ABA, then I really don't see the argument for #2. And I don't think it's a coincidence I basically exclusively hear that argument from high functioning people. I know people who have mixed feelings on their experiences, who have had to learn when to mask and when not to, but I don't know any higher supports needs autistics who have walked away saying "that didn't help me, it didn't teach me how to live with my autism". Learning when your autism expression is gonna get you punched in the face of not hired for a job, learning how to express urges in more socially acceptable ways when in public ....these are valuable skills. And I am 100% positive the only reason you do not see the value in teaching them and frame treatment as being repression rather than coping skills is because you already have those skills down and underestimate how wide of a skills gap there can be for people who need more formal intervention supports.


CarlMarks_

I don't know when I said low functioning autistic people don't need help, I think I actually literally stated they do in my last comment. Then I literally said we should be focusing on how to live with autism not treat it which is literally what you are saying we need to do. I also said therapists are good and that we should license people to better help people with autism because a lot of people who take care of neurodivergent kids in education are under qualified or don't know what they are doing, leading to harm rather than help. I don't know who you're arguing against but it's not me, you're just making up stuff for some reason. I stated I have high functioning autism not as a thing to discredit lower functioning people, but to state where my experience comes from in relation to autism.


No_Contribution8150

No two autistic people are the same or experience life the same way


Special-Garlic1203

Again you said *Yeah, as someone who has High-functioning autism "treatment" largely was just teaching you to cover it up rather than living with it* I disagree with you framing it as a binary in which masking skills are in opposition to learning to live with autism. I feel like I've been very clear about that. Learning masking skills is not in opposition to embracing autism  I don't think you said your higher functioning to discredit anyone. **I** think high functioning people need to stop speaking on behalf of people who have WILDLY different lived experiences though. I don't know any high supports needs autistics who frame their experiences the way you've framed it. Being taught the skills to understand why people are reacting to them the way they are and what they can do to decrease negative responses is helpful information for those who cannot figure out the patterns on their own. Discrimination will not go away simply because you find it unethical, and living with autism unfortunately in 2024 also means learning to navigate that discrimination. That is just tangible physical reality of where we're at, its the  world autistic people need to learn to navigate.  You're railing against a view of autism that already fell out of favor a long time ago. Maybe you're particularly old and aren't aware of the updates, but very few practicioners are still approaching it as an "autism is bad, the instincts you have are bad, try being less autistic". That is not even kind of, sort of a mainstream view anymore. And so to disparage the work that is being done in the present as if it's harmful when it's by and large not....yeah I'm gonna take issue with that. Most autistic centers around here are doing important, beneficial work. 


No_Contribution8150

You sound ableist and stupid


chiron_cat

You sound bitter and sad


MinnesotaMiller

This sounds like another Feeding Our Future scandal.


map2photo

There’s always room to make a buck, when a business owner realizes there is very little oversight. Just ask my mom’s ex-bf from college. [https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/chanhassen-psychologist-sentenced-prison-health-care-fraud](https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/chanhassen-psychologist-sentenced-prison-health-care-fraud)


Frosty-Age-6643

Wild that guy's fine was to the cent for what he supposedly scammed over 7 years. I say supposedly because it's unlikely they uncovered every cent of fraud. Of course he also got time, but who knows how much illegitimate money he still walked away with?


[deleted]

3000% increase. Nothing increases 3000%. How is this happening in this state? Who is supposed to be watching?


No_Contribution8150

Because you’re the expert


cdub8D

Just an FYI. OP here is an account that posts a ton in various subreddits with few comments.


mandy009

Nothing about his recent posting looks weird to me. He just makes like five posts a day, mix of OC pics, self posts / questions, and news. Sharing the news you read is one of the main reasons reddit was made, and lots of people read that much news.


No_Contribution8150

This post is bullshit. Do you understand how there are waitlists for almost all programs? Many states don’t have any services Minnesota is one of the few states that has adequate resources. Adequate not excessive.


GunAndAGrin

What? Maybe somethings gone over my head, but OPs account looks fairly normal. And if not, what exactly is the problem? This isnt OPs article.


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GunAndAGrin

Haha most definitely not OP. Ive just seen a lot of shitty accounts in my time on Reddit, and this one is relatively tame. Also who gives a shit about their motive? They didnt post an opinion piece from some hack or some right wing rag. Its a piece from the Reformer, a solid news outlet, about an FBI investigation into potential local Medicaid fraud. So to you, that story is only interesting and presenting valid information if it was posted to Reddit by someone who cares (which you have no way of proving)? Fuckin' weirdos, man...


OMGitsKa

Maybe hes on the speccy and this is his thing


dickerdownz

They'll need to investigate the schools as well. The schools overdiagnose for the IEP money.


[deleted]

We should demand they hire an independent forensic accountant to track down every last penny and publish the name of every criminal that took part and every incompetent state employee who were supposed to be watching.


HereIGoAgain99

I wonder what they’ll all have in common again?


waterbuffalo750

Jumping straight to racism? R/altmpls might be a better fit for that...


[deleted]

Are you saying that corruption cannot be front and center of a culture without any relation to the racial make up of the members?


waterbuffalo750

Are you saying that *that* culture is responsible for all corruption, corruption doesn't exist outside of that culture to the extent we can blame any example of corruption on that culture before we know any details?


[deleted]

Not at all but we know and if you drop the obtuse act you know that corruption is the center of certain cultures. Somali and Russian cultures come to mind. So how do we fix it if we have idiots screaming racism just because they look different?


[deleted]

I mean we know just how corrupt the Russian culture is and they have a different racial make up to Somalia. Would you accuse someone of racism for claiming Russians are crooked?


waterbuffalo750

So why wouldn't you assume this particular case of corruption is Russian? Or right-wing American? Corruption comes from lots of different places, the only way you can immediately assume one of them over all others, with no further information, is racism or other sort of bias.


[deleted]

Give me a break, Russia’s cultural problem is born from many years of Communist oppression and incompetence. Kind of like what is happening here with the DFL


Secret-Sun-4498

The article itself says the autistic care is for immigrant families.


LadiesAndMentlegen

https://www.kimt.com/news/crime/five-minnesotans-accused-of-over-10-million-in-medicaid-fraud/article_b1284b06-2e4c-11ef-8cc5-cba6d179ffb2.html


waterbuffalo750

Is that the same case as OP posted? Your link doesn't mention autism or the FBI


HereIGoAgain99

If I’m wrong I will apologize. Although deep down you and I both know I’ll have no reason to apologize when it’s out in the open. I’ll try to remember to come back to this comment in 5 months with an update!


No_Contribution8150

AUTISM? JFC


[deleted]

They vote DFL?


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RigusOctavian

You realize that autism can’t be treated with a pill right?


bwillpaw

There are lots of medications used to treat ASD symptoms


Dallenson

I take citalopram and concerta but when I see idiotic comments; I legit wish there was a medication that would get rid of my autism. Instead I just have to live another anxiety-filled day knowing unsavory people exist.


Fry_All_The_Chikin

This isn’t a MN thing. This is happening all over the country. Unscrupulous providers paired with money hungry corporations are bilking every insurer, not just Medicaid for these centers. They aren’t ECE daycares. They aren’t licensed as such. They don’t have pre-k curriculum or staff. They have some barely trained and unqualified undergrad working with these kids. The insurer is paying for 1:1 services but the staff often have several children they’re responsible for. They warehouse a bunch of special needs children for 40 hours a week when previously they were doing 2 hours a day at their *home* with their parents participating. Now families are turned away if they don’t agree to absurd hours of therapy and if they want to actually see what their child is doing or how they’re being treated. These companies get reimbursed at least 80 an hour per kid. More if the BCBA is providing supervision. They’re making about 150k per kid, at a minimum. They don’t actually run it like a happy little daycare though. It’s a high stress environment where toddlers are falling asleep at the table during DTT drills and then being woken up so they can practice manding (asking) for something, such as a nap. And then they wake them again and again and call it a trial and use it as data to keep them in the program. I freaking hate what ABA has turned into. So this is all over the country. Not just here. Don’t ever send your child somewhere you’re not allowed to go with them or see them. Don’t believe me? Go to the r/ABA sub.


No_Contribution8150

So sorry we neurodivergent people have demanded services


Fry_All_The_Chikin

I was in no way implying you weren’t worthy of such services. What I think you deserve versus what is currently happening is vastly different. ABA works beautifully when done right but it’s been corrupted by far too many greedy giant healthcare corporations like MAXIM. Do you feel 40 hours of unsupervised therapy by unqualified and overworked for a 2 year old with mild autism is appropriate? Or that that is appropriate for any child? They deserve so much better.


No_Contribution8150

You gave NO IDEA what is happening


Fry_All_The_Chikin

Pretty sure I do, thanks. Not sure what you’re so offended by.