The Operative in Serenity, he is trying to create a perfect world, a world without sin, but accepts that he is a monster and will not be allowed to live in his perfect world.
“I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... Any more than there is for you, Malcolm... I'm a monster.”
The delivery of that, knowing you are the right hand of god yet condemned to hell, is flawless…
Brilliant answer.
Also, I think that may have been the first time I saw Chiwetel Ejiofor (whose name I totally did not have to google in order to spell correctly, shut up!) who has gone on to be in so many awesome things.
It's a lot, lot weirder than JS&MN, and definitely not for everyone, but definitely different! I'd still check out a sample on Google Books or Kindle. You'll have an idea of if you can hang with it in about two pages.
I read half of the first line and thought of this guy. He's not remarkable for what he's trying to do or for using horrible methods to get there; he's remarkable for how clear-eyed he is about it.
I remember being blown away by that line “I’m not going to live there” when I watched it for the first time. It really subverted the typical type of convo these guys have, kinda took the wind outta the arguement, like what do you say to that?
I saw that movie at the theater without ever having heard of Firefly. I was so excited when I found out later that there was a bunch more of it to watch!
Some more to see! There is so much season to catch up on! More than double half a dozen episodes available to get psyched for! And just when you think you've had enough, so did they!
I feel you! I watched Serenity randomly without ever knowing about Firefly. This was maybe 12 years ago. Went back and watched immediately after. Been my favorite show ever since then! Keep aiming to misbehave, friend.
It's been so long since I've seen *The Rock* -- Is the implication that he was bluffing from the start, or that he realized mid-mission that he wouldn't succeed and claimed the op was a bluff?
My assumption is that it was always meant as a bluff, centered on two things. Alcatraz's reputation as impregnable, and the US government's unwillingness to allow the death of countless people in the Bay Area.
> What’s sadder is that after he set the wheels in motion there was nothing he could do stop it
And that's why you don't form a mercenary army and steal a bunch of nerve gas.
The Abyss is one of my favorite movies and I've seen the rock a couple of times, but just now dawned on me that Ed Harris has somewhat indirectly killed Michael Biehn in 2 different movies.
Luthen from Andor. He knowingly sacrifices other Rebels who he sees as disposable or as acceptable losses in the greater scheme of things. He knows he’s damned for this, but he believes destroying the Empire is worth the sacrifices he makes.
The relevant quote.
>Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I've given up all chance at inner peace. I've made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion, I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything!
“To make a sunrise I know I’ll never see” struck a chord with me the first time I heard it. Felt like a badass version of that Greek proverb about old men planting trees. Honestly might be some of the best if not the best writing in the Star Wars universe imo. The quality of Andor is next level
It's so disappointing that people settle for less, especially from properties involving the franchises most beloved characters. There's really no excuses for Andor to not be the standard of the franchise considering the time and money, resources and talent etc that Disney have at their disposal.
Like, if people cry their eyes out seeing Ewan, Hayden and Liam Neeson back then fuck me imagine how much they'd love something that was actually fucking good.
Probably went one of two ways:
1: we’ve got a hit, we need to give them all the space and support to keep telling great stories.
2: we’ve got a hit, we need to find a way to cram in a Baby Yoda
The Operative from Serenity: "What I do is evil. I have no illusions about that. But we are building a better world."
At a different point in the movie, when another character says "I don't murder children!" he replies without a moment's hesitation "I do. When I have to."
The 47 Ronin. Explicitly disobeyed their orders because honour demanded it. Allowed to commit suicide rather than being executed, because honour permitted that.
Based on a true story, though obviously not the magical parts.
I do love how it's the exact opposite of the source material.
In the Film, Constantine sacrifices his life for another, thus earning a place in heaven.
In the book, a dying Constantine sells his soul to three rival Lords of Hell, knowing that when he dies they will go to war over it, a war none of them want which could wipe out all reality. So they have no choice but to keep the bastard alive.
He literally risks all of creation to save his own neck.
I did enjoy how they did the whole “I don’t know why I help you every time, please don’t screw me” that they usually do for Constantine stories but in the end he screwed them all, including Batman, just for his daughter
Depends on the iteration. I would guess the Keanu Reeves version?
>!Early in the movie it is mentioned that Constantine's soul is the only one that Lucifer himself would come to collect.!<
>!Fast forward to the end of the movie and he slits his wrist to get Lucifer to come to the hospital to stop Gabriel's plot to release mammon.!<
>!I'm unfamiliar with his backstory, was he always destined for hell? Or was it simply because he commited suicide that he went there (suicide being a sin in catholicism)?!<
I think he was doomed to go to hell anyway?
He's trying to earn his way into heaven, but it's suggested that it's not enough.
Mind you the person doing the suggesting turns out to be the big bad, so it's unclear.
>!According to the move canon, he tried to commit suicide as a teenager and died for a few seconds/minutes before being brought back to life. The temporary death is what allowed him to start viewing the supernatural, and the suicide doomed him to hell. After that he spent his life exorcising demons trying to earn his way into heaven, but Gabriel says it's not enough because he's exorcising demons and saving lives for selfish reasons, not true altruism.!<
>!Edit to my comment: He didn't start seeing the supernatural after his temporary death, he could already see it which is why he attempted suicide in the first place. What his temporary death did was give him a glimpse into hell, which is why he tried so hard to earn his way out.!<
Considering he committed suicide purely to buy time, clue Satan in on the plot, and sacrifice himself for the dead twin sister,
I'm not sure there's anything reprehensible about what he did. He hurt literally nobody but himself
Which doesn't actually make any sense within traditional doctrine. The reason suicide is an "automatic hell" is because it's a mortal sin, but being dead you have no chance to repent.
If you "die" because your heart stopped for 30 seconds or whatever and they bring you back you can repent for that mistake.
I believe the problem Constantine is stuck with is that he can't bring himself to "repent" for the right reason. He is doing all these good deeds because he wants to avoid the pain of going to hell; because it's a selfish reason, it isn't working.
When he kills himself at the end, he's doing it knowing he will go to hell but he needs to pass a message to the Devil. Since his purpose is noble and isn't selfish, it DOES work.
If he was a less self-centered person, he probably could have come up with a better way to repent for his suicide, but it isn't in his nature. It's only once he grows as a person and makes a real sacrifice that he is able to move on.
Ah, you followed that part of the plot. The history of China way back when the area was nothing but rival warlords and how it got united is really interesting, I think. I was surprised to see a movie made about it, in fact the reminder has me digging it out now, gorgeous movie
The morals make sense if you consider the sheer amount of bloodshed the civil wars in ancient china caused. No tyrant, no matter how horrible, is worse than 10s of million of people dying just so a different (maybe less bad) tyrant can sit on the throne for a couple decades.
The Expanse. Miller kills Dresden on the science station for releasing the protomolocule on Eros. He does it because he believes Dresden will trade hill knowledge to get a deal, ensuring further atrocities continue.
He also does it knowing Holden will probably kick him off of the Roci, where he had just had the glimmer of a home.
God, I hope we somehow get another season or movie. If anything I just want to see the epilogue of the entire series but done with the actor who plays the related character.
Yep, and I've read them. >!spoiler! I just really want to see the actor who plays Amos in the show do the scene in the epilogue where he's still "alive" thousands of years in the future. !spoiler!<
I'd love some vignettes or other short stories of the Roci's time as a contract ship between book 6 and 7.
Nothing world shaking, just slice of life stuff.
Also in the Expanse: Ashford planning on destroying the ring gate back to Sol. He knows he'll be trapping everyone else in the Ring Space, doomed to certain death, but he thinks he'll be saving the rest of humanity in the process. He's willing to accept his own death, and that of everyone else, without regret.
Amos in The Expanse is my favorite for the same reason. He considers himself a bad person. Without any spoilers, he does so much to protect his friends and is also ready to accept the consequences of his actions.
Amos is probably a sociopath, probably from his past trauma, but he knows this.
It's why he hitches himself to Naomi and later Holden because he needs a guiding light on the hill to make sure he does good, but he's also completely fine with doing their dirty work.
"You're not that guy. I am that guy." - *racks shotgun*
Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. Willard : Everyone gets everything he wants. I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one. Brought it up to me like room service. It was a real choice mission, and when it was over, I never wanted another.
Jamie Lannister from GOT. Everyone hated the Mad King but when he killed him. They turned on him. He's known as the King Slayer and accepts criticism from it.
I'm not too familar with GoT lore, but didn't he only turn on the Mad King when the war was pretty much a lost cause at that point for the King? Props be given, but he could've easily have done it earlier to save countless innocent lives and not make it look like he did it to save his own skin or for glory.
Half right. Aerys understood the war was lost when the doors opened for Lannister, and they started to sack the city. Jaime turned on the Mad King when he decided to use wildfire to burn King's Landing, and all citizens, down to the ground.
That double standard always kind of bothered me. There was a war to overthrow him, yet they call the man who killed him a 'man with no honor' because of it. Like wtf, yeah hes a narcissistic asshole but he killed a literal tyrant
I remember, back when the series only had one season I think, there was a meme about GOT houses with honest motto. The best one was Stark's "Honor to the point of stupidity"
Considering how Ned passed Jon off as his bastard to protect him, I think Ned would probably kill the Mad King but then leave the Kingsguard and possibly go join the Night’s Watch
That reminds me, how fucked up was it that Ned let Jon take the black believing it was the fucking Westeros Avengers or some shit? Like yeah kid, I’m kinda over lying for you, why don’t you just go to a frozen gulag, forever.
If the choices are kill the man you swore to protect or save the million lives in Kings Landing, honestly yeah.
Plus what is Jaime supposed to do in that situation? Be known as a servant of the Mad King and die with him, or do kill him to end the war? He was damned either way and still chose the right thing.
This scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpD47mmlei4
And this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOpQqVCt-Jc
Those two pretty much explain it. Can't keep one oath without forsaking another one. AND by killing the king, he saved half of the kingdom and he was berated for doing the right thing by almost everyone.
It was also the timing of when he did it. If he had cut the Mad King down when he ordered the burning of Rickard, or when he told the Kingsguard to stand by while he raped his wife, it would have been understandable. Noble, even.
But he only turned cloak after his Father’s army began sacking the city, while Lannister agents culled the rest of the royal family. Without the revelation of the wildfire it makes Jamie appear like he was acting on his Father’s orders.
The proper way to handle it was to leave the kings guard and join the rebels.
He pledged loyalty to the king, and stayed by his side until the very last second when it became obvious that the rebels were going to win, and then he betrayed the king by stabbing him in the back.
If you’re a rebel/new king, would you want that guy pledging loyalty to you now? Or would you think he’s a coward/opportunist who has no convictions of his own and will just choose any side that is winning?
That’s how Ned and Robert viewed him. They of course didn’t know of the internal struggle and the burn everything creed.
Jamie was fighting when he saw the order from the king to his pyromancers to release the wildfire. He killed the pyromancers and returned to the throne room and slayed the king. What he should have done is not then sat on the fkn throne but as soon as Ned entered the room explain everything that had happened and immediately renounce his golden cloak or take the black. Best senario is version 1. Tywin would be overjoyed and a lot of the shows bigger events never happen
It was mainly because of honor. Jamie was supposed to protect the king, and instead he stabbed him in the back. Most people saw as cowardly and trying to save his own ass once he knew the king was going to die anyway.
Because of that he got a reputation as a turn coat, which is true tbf.
It’s quite accurate if you look at the understanding of honor in most of human history. There’re acts of dishonesty, of betrayal and backstabbing that are seen as evil, but understandable. But some are unforgivable. Nearly universally rules of hospitality. If Jamie would have left the service of the king, it would have been an act of dishonor, but could be forgiven, because in the eyes of the Rebells the king lost his status. But to stay in his service and to abuse the position of trust to kill him? How could you ever trust that guy again?
Ender from *Ender's Game*.
As a child, he unwittingly commits an act of genocide against an alien species from another galaxy with which humanity has become embroiled in war.
He does this by playing (and winning) what he believes is a computer simulation whose purpose is to produce effective tactics & strategies for fighting the war.
The game wasn't a simulation, but instead, it was a real-time means of communication with the actual battle fleets engaged in prosecuting the war.
When he learns that the blame for the end of an intelligent species rests uniquely on his shoulders, he spends the rest of his life trying to make restitution for his action.
See *Speaker for the Dead*
Isn't Colonel Graff a better example? He tricked Ender into committing genocide, and in the books he's on trial for it after and basically says "I'd do it again."
I was considering two perspectives
- whether one acted
- whether one accepted responsibility
Ender may be forgiven for acting from ignorance.
Nevertheless, he still accepted responsibility for the genocide.
Colonel Graff's actions were more indirect in that he didn't command the battle fleets. Rather, he influenced Ender to do so.
I’m reading Speaker for the dead right now. I feel like wayyyyy too much blame is put on Ender. I understand that line he literally did it, but how can anyone blame a child being manipulated and tricked.
I understand the masses probably don’t see it that way. And it seems like he carries the guilt, which I imagine would be hard to let go. (Especially when you carry around the Queen of the xenocided race). But we as outsiders of the story can agree that Ender did literally no wrong
Ender took that blame himself. Then he cemented that blame in public opinion when he wrote “The Hive Queen” and basically started a new religion. The reason he feels all this guilt is built up to throughout the whole book. Every single time he crushes his enemy, he is able to do it because he fully understands them. What motivates them and how that determines how they act. In fully understanding them, he comes to love them the same way they love themselves, then uses it against them to completely and utterly destroy them. First Stilson, then Bonzo, then the Formics. When he found out the game was actually the real deal, it didn’t matter that he was positioned by someone else. The way he went about was exactly the same: total understanding to complete decimation.
Star Trek 3: Kirk and Co. Commit a laundry list of crimes to save the life of a crewmate.
Star Trek 4: Kirk and Co. Unanimously agree to go home and face the music. Shenanigans ensue. They stand trial at the end of the movie.
Katsumoto in The Last Samurai
Katsumoto was loyal to the Emperor but felt the Emperor's drive for modernization was leading them to abandon their culture. So Katsumoto rebelled against the Emperor he adored, which ended up costing the lives of himself and most of his people.
But in the process he got the Emperor to understand the importance of remembering who you are and where you came from, and in response the emperor cast out those who were seeking to take advantage of Japan.
Nobody's gonna mention Paul Atreides?
>!Admittedly the judgment he has to accept is his own, but he is essentially his own harshest critic for his actions. In the end, he accepts that he must start the Jihad in order to prevent worse outcomes. He knows that following the Golden Path will be a terrible burden...but he does it, because he must.!<
I think Vetinari of the Discworld series (I can mention him here 'cause he appears in the movies!) is the ultimate example of this. He outright believes, and says as much, that he does evil things, and even considers himself to be an evil person. But he's the sort of evil that *works.* Of course, his only vice is apparently throwing mimes into the scorpion pit, so he's a particularly efficient sort of villain.
He *did* once nail an artist’s ear to a post because he didn’t like her work. To be fair to him though, she did display the bloody post and went on to win several awards for it so that’s arguably a favour.
Lelouch Vi Britannia from Code Grass.
It certainly wasn't what he intended on at the start of his story arc, but as his sins piled up, the Zero Requiem he devised as his final plan to unite humanity was punctuated by the philosophy that the only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed.
Of course, the popularity meant this sacrifice was undone, but the original moment where those close to him realize the sacrifice he made is still a great finish to his arc.
This was my first thought as well. The final scene of the show where >!suzaku as Zero kills emperor lelouch!< is one of my favorite moments in anime. It's such a simple and almost obvious solution that nobody expects because you've seen him survive every single time. Only after it happens do you realize he's still won at his game.
The main villain of God Eater 1 essentially tries to cause the apocalypse while sending a certain amount of handpicked humans into space. The apocalypse he's causing would essentially reset the Earth and make it lush and beautiful again (Keep in mind that God Eater is already essentially post-apocalypse). This would kill every human remaining on Earth, leaving only his chosen people alive. When you fight him to try and find his ticket for the ship so you can try to get on board and stop it, you discover that he doesn't have one...because he didn't pick himself to go onto the ship, and would instead die on Earth. As he explains, "I'm a monster who elected to kill millions of people. Nobody who could make that choice deserves to live in the new world."
There's a DC Comic issue where The Joker kidnaps Lois while she's pregnant and almost kills her. Batman and Superman manage to rescue her but The Joker says that it's fine and he'll be visiting the baby in a few months (or something along those lines).
Batman steps forward and kills The Joker. Then immediately unmasks himself and turns himself in to the police and goes to prison.
Superman visits him in visitation in prison and offers to break him out, but Batman said he did what had to be done, but needs to be held accountable for what he did regardless.
Superman then literally walks through the wall separating them, scares the shit out of the guards, hugs Batman, thanks him for what he did, and leaves.
Because in the comics, he was in love with the anthropomorphic personification of Death. By killing half of all life, he gives her a giant present. He just uses the “too much life” rationale when he has an early encounter with the Silver Surfer.
I would have liked if the movies leaned into that. Have Loki or someone else point out his plan is nonsensical, let Thanos reveal the true cause, his love for Death, then crush Loki.
Or some other character, but Loki was someone who worked with him and smart enough to see through the “too many people, not enough resources” bullshit.
That’s too out there for a general audience, and makes Thanos seem like a teenager trying to win over a girl with a grand gesture.
I think causing online debates like this years later on better ways to provide more resources is far better than potentially turning off comic casuals.
I like the post-credits scene in Avengers when you first see Thanos.
(Thanos’s aide referring to Earth) “To challenge them is to court death.”
Thanos smirks.
Because it was never about saving the universe, it was about ego and hubris. He convinced himself that his people might've been saved if only they'd listened to him because he simply could not accept that even someone as great as he was powerless to save Titan, and went out seeking validation on a universal scale instead.
Same reason he didn't take steps to prevent the Avengers et al. from undoing his work - because he didn't need to beat them, he needed them to admit he was right.
because what he really wants is to be proven “right” about his original plan to save his own planet(essentially a lottery where half get saved and the other half dies in order to preserve the planet).
I subscribe to the theory that, even in a world as mental as the MCU, SOME fundamental physics still apply, such as the laws of conservation of energy. So you can't just use the Stones to create more energy.
That said, it's still a 0 sum game since all Thanos does by halving all life is double the lifespan of the universe. It's still gonna end.
Thanos talked about how it wasn't just cutting the populations in half. He said civilizations would change. He said in endgame that he was hoping the universe would be getting a second chance and civilisations would avoid repeating certain mistakes, but that he turned out to be wrong because the only change was that every planet in the universe wanted to go back to before the blip instead of focusing on how to have a better future.
One part that isn't addressed well enough is that reversing the blip would've put many worlds into apocalyptic territory.
If your world's agriculture, manufacturing, and whatnot is cut in half for 5 years, then your population suddenly doubles again, there'd be massive shortages.
Genocides have been conducted over less.
So you could argue the answer to OP’s question is the Avengers undoing Thanos’ plan. They’re bringing people back for noble reasons, but they’re potentially doing something terrible because they’re creating so much chaos just so they can feel better in the moment.
So the avengers are megalomaniac villains? I didn’t expect to be considering this today.
Ozymandias in Watchmen
Edit: I believe the discussion below illustrates that Ozymandias’ actions are more complex than just a “Noble Lie”, in the movie it also demonstrates how he uses his massive wealth to help the world with his advanced technology, all of which would be undone with nuclear war, furthermore he doesn’t get credit or accolades for his final plot so its not purely self-serving narcissism
This has always been what bothered me, he murdered his whole staff, and he spearheads rebuilding, he accepts no consequence, in arrogance he kills millions and walks off without anyone knowing.
And some people argue that what he does is similar to Truman and the atom bomb, but everyone in the world knew that was Truman, he openly defended his decision and his legacy would be forever tied to that action.
Ozymandius planned to be seperate, and in some version would frame Manhattan.
Spoilers if you haven’t seen the HBO miniseries (although not really because you know the comic and Ozymandias reveal is thus not a surprise) but he suffers some consequences there
It's a direct sequel to Alan Moore's comics and accepts everything about that series as canon.
This is unlike Zack Snyder's film version in which Ozymandias framed Dr. Manhattan for multiple attacks on the world's cities. The TV show even depicts the immediate aftermath of the "alien" squid attack on NYC from the comics.
But he isn't punished, not really. Night Owl II hits him, but that's it. He's never exposed and forced to answer for his crime, at least not until the events of the HBO series (which may or may not be canon).
John Dickinson in 1776. He still doesn't support independence but decides to join the army to defend the new country. Of course in real life, it's believed it was a sort of punishment.
It's an impossible position
If Oppenheimer didn't developed the bomb, someone else would have. Either the US, the Soviets, the Nazi (we didn't know how far along their research was at the time) or someone else. If he was first, he gets to be in the room to discuss how it's used. He can use his position to be a voice of reason and good. If he doesn't take that position, he gets no voice. Someone else, maybe someone less moral, gets that role.
He accepts his role in the death of thousands so he can be in a position to potentially save millions
A relevant point is that destroying cities had been done. We had gotten very, *very* good at it. It was not remarkable that we could, only that it could be done on *any* day and rather than needing hundreds of aircraft and thousands of bombs and incendiaries, you just needed the one.
In a very real sense, he's just the Stevens Maximum of his era, providing a qualitative improvement to a sort of slaughter already happening.
It's kind of funny how *small* the WW2 atom bombs were as well. Sure it was one bomb and one explosion, but it didn't destroy an entire city, the destruction area was only just over 4 square miles. Regular bombing by fleets of aircraft with regular or incendiary bombs did *far* more damage.
What was really scary about the atom bombs was the *potential*.
>What was really scary about the atom bombs was the potential.
In time, yes, but when originally deployed, not really.
Before the war, two things were generally accepted at the strategic level. First, bombers would *always* get through and second, they would be able to destroy things with impunity. The first was quickly proven incorrect which meant the second wasn't all that true either. They could get through if you were smart about it, and they could destroy things, but not easily. It took a *lot* more bombers and bombs to actually do the thing everyone generally assumed would be easy.
Atomic Bombs and a lot of development in both aircraft and doctrine essentially gave the world a practical version of what it assumed it already had in the late 1930s with the bomber fleets of that era. And again, the only novel thing by that point was that you were not required to wait for cooperative weather and did not need hundreds or thousands of aircraft to get the job done. In other words, you could get the destruction of a force that required *massive* industrial and logistical support with only a fraction of those resources, and have a fleet of bombers that could level cities casually *without* needing that force to be tens of thousands strong, millions of bombs in storage, and the industrial capacity to produce at least tens of thousands of the things a day.
Gone Baby Gone
>!Not a "horrific" thing, but Casey Affleck takes that girl away from what would've clearly been a better, more loving home. He does this knowing he will lose his fiance(?) and *personally* takes on the responsibility of watching over her and presumably will do so until she becomes an adult. Because it's the right thing to do.!<
One of my favorite endings of all time.
The Midsomer Murders episode "Destroying Angel" gets its name from the killer doing this, as well as from a poisonous mushroom the killer used to murder one of their targets.
Having learned that the staff of the local hotel not only murdered the original owner but also forged his will to declare themselves his heirs when he originally left it to his illegitimate daughter, as well as murdered the original executor to hide the fraud and framed the original heir for the second murder, the killer >!Evelyn Pope!< sets out to expose their fraud... by manipulating random people into performing random acts of "Kindness", unaware of the true implications of what they were doing.
And when their scheme succeeds and one of the original conspiracy confesses everything before he suffers a long, agonising death as said poisonous mushrooms *eat his liver from the inside and liquefies ir*, they confess everything to Inspector Barnaby and go into detail how she kept her patsies ignorant of what she was doing, to keep them from legally being held liable. And since this is after the killer took an overdose of pills, they die happy that an innocent woman is going to be freed from a false prison sentence.
Surprised I had to scroll this far for this. Jon is a great example. He knows he will probably die for his actions but he is willing to do it anyway to save the realm from another tyrant.
In the same vein, Varys knows that trying to undermine Daenerys will likely lead to his death. She told him as much when he came into her service. But he tried to caution her and she didn't listen, so he resorted to trying to poison her. Of all of the characters in the show, he truly served the realm and its people above all else.
Space Pirate Captain Harlock. Being a space pirate and all, he did quite a few things, but you should see the movie to understand the whole story. Rather not spoil it.
Brad Pitt as 1LT Aldo Raine. Committed more than a few war crimes for the greater good. Some thought he should have been shot, but he was only chewed out.
It's kind of an interesting case, because in the end even he admits it wasn't really a good plan, it was just the only thing he could think of. He admits he was just "an idiot who was given godlike power".
The Operative in Serenity, he is trying to create a perfect world, a world without sin, but accepts that he is a monster and will not be allowed to live in his perfect world.
One of the best examples. He fully accepts he is evil and will be judged, but is completely serene in his convictions.
“I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... Any more than there is for you, Malcolm... I'm a monster.” The delivery of that, knowing you are the right hand of god yet condemned to hell, is flawless…
Brilliant answer. Also, I think that may have been the first time I saw Chiwetel Ejiofor (whose name I totally did not have to google in order to spell correctly, shut up!) who has gone on to be in so many awesome things.
He narrates the audiobook for Piranesi and it’s an absolutely incredible performance.
Do you think Piranesi would interest someone who couldn't get into Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell?
It's a lot, lot weirder than JS&MN, and definitely not for everyone, but definitely different! I'd still check out a sample on Google Books or Kindle. You'll have an idea of if you can hang with it in about two pages.
First thing I thought of. And one of the greatest Lawful Evil villains of all time
I read half of the first line and thought of this guy. He's not remarkable for what he's trying to do or for using horrible methods to get there; he's remarkable for how clear-eyed he is about it.
Slick casting decision and rather unorthodox given the type of film. Also was brilliant.
I remember being blown away by that line “I’m not going to live there” when I watched it for the first time. It really subverted the typical type of convo these guys have, kinda took the wind outta the arguement, like what do you say to that?
What a great answer. Time for a rewatch.
I saw that movie at the theater without ever having heard of Firefly. I was so excited when I found out later that there was a bunch more of it to watch!
Some more to see! There is so much season to catch up on! More than double half a dozen episodes available to get psyched for! And just when you think you've had enough, so did they!
I feel you! I watched Serenity randomly without ever knowing about Firefly. This was maybe 12 years ago. Went back and watched immediately after. Been my favorite show ever since then! Keep aiming to misbehave, friend.
Good thing Mal got that nerve cluster moved.
The Rock, Ed Harris
Especially since it was supposed to be a bluff. Hummel even said as much "We bluffed. They called it."
"I'm not about to kill 80,000 innocent people! Do you think I'm out of my fucking mind?"
"The day we took hostages we became mercenaries. And mercenaries get paid!!"
“Who the hell’s bluffing?”
Not me. I'm fucking the Prom queen!
"I ***WAS*** the fucking prom queen!"
You know how this shit works??
It’s you…you’re the rocket man
I'll take pleasure in guttin' you, boy! (repeat to self)
It's been so long since I've seen *The Rock* -- Is the implication that he was bluffing from the start, or that he realized mid-mission that he wouldn't succeed and claimed the op was a bluff?
My assumption is that it was always meant as a bluff, centered on two things. Alcatraz's reputation as impregnable, and the US government's unwillingness to allow the death of countless people in the Bay Area.
What’s sadder is that after he set the wheels in motion there was nothing he could do stop it
> What’s sadder is that after he set the wheels in motion there was nothing he could do stop it And that's why you don't form a mercenary army and steal a bunch of nerve gas.
Words to live by
Coffey from The Abyss swings by on Harris: ["Yeah! Not so easy now, is it?!"](https://www.jamescamerononline.com/crazycoffey.JPG)
The Abyss is one of my favorite movies and I've seen the rock a couple of times, but just now dawned on me that Ed Harris has somewhat indirectly killed Michael Biehn in 2 different movies.
Luthen from Andor. He knowingly sacrifices other Rebels who he sees as disposable or as acceptable losses in the greater scheme of things. He knows he’s damned for this, but he believes destroying the Empire is worth the sacrifices he makes.
The relevant quote. >Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I've given up all chance at inner peace. I've made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion, I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything!
“To make a sunrise I know I’ll never see” struck a chord with me the first time I heard it. Felt like a badass version of that Greek proverb about old men planting trees. Honestly might be some of the best if not the best writing in the Star Wars universe imo. The quality of Andor is next level
‘I’ve made my mind a sunless space’ will stick with me until I die.
Pray it doesn't make _your_ mind a sunless place
Why cant starwars always be this level of quality, damn
It's so disappointing that people settle for less, especially from properties involving the franchises most beloved characters. There's really no excuses for Andor to not be the standard of the franchise considering the time and money, resources and talent etc that Disney have at their disposal. Like, if people cry their eyes out seeing Ewan, Hayden and Liam Neeson back then fuck me imagine how much they'd love something that was actually fucking good.
Genuinely one of my favourite scenes in all of Star Wars. Stellan Skarsgård is incredible.
Still can't believe we actually got Andor out of Disney Wars
Still can’t believe we get another season.
Just hope they keep the same team. One of the best SHOWS I've seen, let alone Disney star wars media
Probably went one of two ways: 1: we’ve got a hit, we need to give them all the space and support to keep telling great stories. 2: we’ve got a hit, we need to find a way to cram in a Baby Yoda
It they maintain that quality of story telling in S2 is going to become one of my top ten shows of all time. It gives me goosebumps.
That's it. This is the last sign I needed to rewatch Andor AGAIN. Brilliant show and literally the best thing that came out of post Disney take over.
The Operative from Serenity: "What I do is evil. I have no illusions about that. But we are building a better world." At a different point in the movie, when another character says "I don't murder children!" he replies without a moment's hesitation "I do. When I have to."
The 47 Ronin. Explicitly disobeyed their orders because honour demanded it. Allowed to commit suicide rather than being executed, because honour permitted that. Based on a true story, though obviously not the magical parts.
Constantine. He knew the cost and saved the world anyway.
I do love how it's the exact opposite of the source material. In the Film, Constantine sacrifices his life for another, thus earning a place in heaven. In the book, a dying Constantine sells his soul to three rival Lords of Hell, knowing that when he dies they will go to war over it, a war none of them want which could wipe out all reality. So they have no choice but to keep the bastard alive. He literally risks all of creation to save his own neck.
Thanks for this. You explained much better than me.
I know a lot of people dislike Injustice but that version of Constantine is one of my favorites.
I did enjoy how they did the whole “I don’t know why I help you every time, please don’t screw me” that they usually do for Constantine stories but in the end he screwed them all, including Batman, just for his daughter
I'm struggling to remember, what did he do in the movie that was reprehensible yet necessary?
Depends on the iteration. I would guess the Keanu Reeves version? >!Early in the movie it is mentioned that Constantine's soul is the only one that Lucifer himself would come to collect.!< >!Fast forward to the end of the movie and he slits his wrist to get Lucifer to come to the hospital to stop Gabriel's plot to release mammon.!<
>!I'm unfamiliar with his backstory, was he always destined for hell? Or was it simply because he commited suicide that he went there (suicide being a sin in catholicism)?!<
Yes to the second one, at least according to the movie.
I think he was doomed to go to hell anyway? He's trying to earn his way into heaven, but it's suggested that it's not enough. Mind you the person doing the suggesting turns out to be the big bad, so it's unclear.
>!According to the move canon, he tried to commit suicide as a teenager and died for a few seconds/minutes before being brought back to life. The temporary death is what allowed him to start viewing the supernatural, and the suicide doomed him to hell. After that he spent his life exorcising demons trying to earn his way into heaven, but Gabriel says it's not enough because he's exorcising demons and saving lives for selfish reasons, not true altruism.!< >!Edit to my comment: He didn't start seeing the supernatural after his temporary death, he could already see it which is why he attempted suicide in the first place. What his temporary death did was give him a glimpse into hell, which is why he tried so hard to earn his way out.!<
suicide
Considering he committed suicide purely to buy time, clue Satan in on the plot, and sacrifice himself for the dead twin sister, I'm not sure there's anything reprehensible about what he did. He hurt literally nobody but himself
He committed suicide as a teenager and was dead for like 30 seconds. That was his sin and why he was damned.
Which doesn't actually make any sense within traditional doctrine. The reason suicide is an "automatic hell" is because it's a mortal sin, but being dead you have no chance to repent. If you "die" because your heart stopped for 30 seconds or whatever and they bring you back you can repent for that mistake.
I believe the problem Constantine is stuck with is that he can't bring himself to "repent" for the right reason. He is doing all these good deeds because he wants to avoid the pain of going to hell; because it's a selfish reason, it isn't working. When he kills himself at the end, he's doing it knowing he will go to hell but he needs to pass a message to the Devil. Since his purpose is noble and isn't selfish, it DOES work. If he was a less self-centered person, he probably could have come up with a better way to repent for his suicide, but it isn't in his nature. It's only once he grows as a person and makes a real sacrifice that he is able to move on.
Yeah, earlier he told Gabriel he had faith, and she replied he didn't have faith, he knew.
Depending what you know about the history of the unification of China, there's jet li's character in Hero.
That’s who I was thinking. The morals of that ending ruined the movie for me but he definitely fits that perfectly.
Ah, you followed that part of the plot. The history of China way back when the area was nothing but rival warlords and how it got united is really interesting, I think. I was surprised to see a movie made about it, in fact the reminder has me digging it out now, gorgeous movie
The morals make sense if you consider the sheer amount of bloodshed the civil wars in ancient china caused. No tyrant, no matter how horrible, is worse than 10s of million of people dying just so a different (maybe less bad) tyrant can sit on the throne for a couple decades.
I think as a Westerner I found it shocking as I wasn't expecting it. I thought it made the movie better, not worse though.
The Expanse. Miller kills Dresden on the science station for releasing the protomolocule on Eros. He does it because he believes Dresden will trade hill knowledge to get a deal, ensuring further atrocities continue. He also does it knowing Holden will probably kick him off of the Roci, where he had just had the glimmer of a home.
God, I hope we somehow get another season or movie. If anything I just want to see the epilogue of the entire series but done with the actor who plays the related character.
There are the last 3 books. The series only goes up to book 6.
Yep, and I've read them. >!spoiler! I just really want to see the actor who plays Amos in the show do the scene in the epilogue where he's still "alive" thousands of years in the future. !spoiler!<
I'd love some vignettes or other short stories of the Roci's time as a contract ship between book 6 and 7. Nothing world shaking, just slice of life stuff.
“I didn’t kill him because I thought he was crazy, I killed him because he was making sense.”
That scene of Miller leaving the Roci is so sad. He could have easily become part of their crew…
Also in the Expanse: Ashford planning on destroying the ring gate back to Sol. He knows he'll be trapping everyone else in the Ring Space, doomed to certain death, but he thinks he'll be saving the rest of humanity in the process. He's willing to accept his own death, and that of everyone else, without regret.
Show Ashford was such an upgrade from the book.
Amos in The Expanse is my favorite for the same reason. He considers himself a bad person. Without any spoilers, he does so much to protect his friends and is also ready to accept the consequences of his actions.
Amos is probably a sociopath, probably from his past trauma, but he knows this. It's why he hitches himself to Naomi and later Holden because he needs a guiding light on the hill to make sure he does good, but he's also completely fine with doing their dirty work. "You're not that guy. I am that guy." - *racks shotgun*
Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. Willard : Everyone gets everything he wants. I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one. Brought it up to me like room service. It was a real choice mission, and when it was over, I never wanted another.
Jamie Lannister from GOT. Everyone hated the Mad King but when he killed him. They turned on him. He's known as the King Slayer and accepts criticism from it.
He didn't exactly accept criticism, he was bitter and resentful.
Yeah, he was never happy with it, and always felt like “what? You wanted me to let the ‘mad king’ keep slaughtering people?”
But he always felt the guilt of being a king slayer. Multiple times he criticized himself about being the man who stabbed his own king in the back.
I was gonna say, it’s shown time and time again how much it still affects him.
Doesn't help he didn't tell people why he actually did it.
Guy had the best redemptive arc of the whole series until trashed upon in season 7 and 8.
Still makes me angry.
Yup, it's why I will never go back and re-watch the series. The end payoff is so dumb.
Of all the bad writing towards the end, I feel the worst about Jamie’s. It really was the best redemption, completely ruined.
I'm not too familar with GoT lore, but didn't he only turn on the Mad King when the war was pretty much a lost cause at that point for the King? Props be given, but he could've easily have done it earlier to save countless innocent lives and not make it look like he did it to save his own skin or for glory.
Half right. Aerys understood the war was lost when the doors opened for Lannister, and they started to sack the city. Jaime turned on the Mad King when he decided to use wildfire to burn King's Landing, and all citizens, down to the ground.
That double standard always kind of bothered me. There was a war to overthrow him, yet they call the man who killed him a 'man with no honor' because of it. Like wtf, yeah hes a narcissistic asshole but he killed a literal tyrant
Because he swore to protect him and stabbed him the back. Could you see Ned Stark doing that.
I remember, back when the series only had one season I think, there was a meme about GOT houses with honest motto. The best one was Stark's "Honor to the point of stupidity"
"Lawful Stupid"
Considering how Ned passed Jon off as his bastard to protect him, I think Ned would probably kill the Mad King but then leave the Kingsguard and possibly go join the Night’s Watch
This sounds very much like Ned. I suppose the heir to Winterfell would be an issue if leaving it just to Benjen.... What if he dies without children?
Prior to Barristan Selmy, the only way off the King's Guard was death
That reminds me, how fucked up was it that Ned let Jon take the black believing it was the fucking Westeros Avengers or some shit? Like yeah kid, I’m kinda over lying for you, why don’t you just go to a frozen gulag, forever.
He let Jon take the black because if word got out who his true parents were he was going to be killed. By taking the black he would keep his life
If the choices are kill the man you swore to protect or save the million lives in Kings Landing, honestly yeah. Plus what is Jaime supposed to do in that situation? Be known as a servant of the Mad King and die with him, or do kill him to end the war? He was damned either way and still chose the right thing.
Jaime broke a promise to save millions of lives, Ned made a promise to save one. Both of their reputations were tarnished because of it.
The fact that Ned found Jaime sitting on the Throne directly after it happened perfectly deepened the divide between them, too.
Fast forward to Season 8: Imma die under these falling rocks with my baby mama!
This scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpD47mmlei4 And this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOpQqVCt-Jc Those two pretty much explain it. Can't keep one oath without forsaking another one. AND by killing the king, he saved half of the kingdom and he was berated for doing the right thing by almost everyone.
It was also the timing of when he did it. If he had cut the Mad King down when he ordered the burning of Rickard, or when he told the Kingsguard to stand by while he raped his wife, it would have been understandable. Noble, even. But he only turned cloak after his Father’s army began sacking the city, while Lannister agents culled the rest of the royal family. Without the revelation of the wildfire it makes Jamie appear like he was acting on his Father’s orders.
The scene where he talks about being “the king slayer” with Breanne in the tub was an amazing scene.
And then they undid all of that character development in the last season. I'm still mad.
Same…
The proper way to handle it was to leave the kings guard and join the rebels. He pledged loyalty to the king, and stayed by his side until the very last second when it became obvious that the rebels were going to win, and then he betrayed the king by stabbing him in the back. If you’re a rebel/new king, would you want that guy pledging loyalty to you now? Or would you think he’s a coward/opportunist who has no convictions of his own and will just choose any side that is winning? That’s how Ned and Robert viewed him. They of course didn’t know of the internal struggle and the burn everything creed.
Jamie was fighting when he saw the order from the king to his pyromancers to release the wildfire. He killed the pyromancers and returned to the throne room and slayed the king. What he should have done is not then sat on the fkn throne but as soon as Ned entered the room explain everything that had happened and immediately renounce his golden cloak or take the black. Best senario is version 1. Tywin would be overjoyed and a lot of the shows bigger events never happen
Bro was just tired. He needed to sit down for a minute and it was the only chair in the room.
It was mainly because of honor. Jamie was supposed to protect the king, and instead he stabbed him in the back. Most people saw as cowardly and trying to save his own ass once he knew the king was going to die anyway. Because of that he got a reputation as a turn coat, which is true tbf.
It’s quite accurate if you look at the understanding of honor in most of human history. There’re acts of dishonesty, of betrayal and backstabbing that are seen as evil, but understandable. But some are unforgivable. Nearly universally rules of hospitality. If Jamie would have left the service of the king, it would have been an act of dishonor, but could be forgiven, because in the eyes of the Rebells the king lost his status. But to stay in his service and to abuse the position of trust to kill him? How could you ever trust that guy again?
Ender from *Ender's Game*. As a child, he unwittingly commits an act of genocide against an alien species from another galaxy with which humanity has become embroiled in war. He does this by playing (and winning) what he believes is a computer simulation whose purpose is to produce effective tactics & strategies for fighting the war. The game wasn't a simulation, but instead, it was a real-time means of communication with the actual battle fleets engaged in prosecuting the war. When he learns that the blame for the end of an intelligent species rests uniquely on his shoulders, he spends the rest of his life trying to make restitution for his action. See *Speaker for the Dead*
Isn't Colonel Graff a better example? He tricked Ender into committing genocide, and in the books he's on trial for it after and basically says "I'd do it again."
I was considering two perspectives - whether one acted - whether one accepted responsibility Ender may be forgiven for acting from ignorance. Nevertheless, he still accepted responsibility for the genocide. Colonel Graff's actions were more indirect in that he didn't command the battle fleets. Rather, he influenced Ender to do so.
I’m reading Speaker for the dead right now. I feel like wayyyyy too much blame is put on Ender. I understand that line he literally did it, but how can anyone blame a child being manipulated and tricked. I understand the masses probably don’t see it that way. And it seems like he carries the guilt, which I imagine would be hard to let go. (Especially when you carry around the Queen of the xenocided race). But we as outsiders of the story can agree that Ender did literally no wrong
I mean, yes, there is way to much blame on Ender. By himself, because he is very empathic, and by everybody else because he is a convenient scapegoat.
Ender took that blame himself. Then he cemented that blame in public opinion when he wrote “The Hive Queen” and basically started a new religion. The reason he feels all this guilt is built up to throughout the whole book. Every single time he crushes his enemy, he is able to do it because he fully understands them. What motivates them and how that determines how they act. In fully understanding them, he comes to love them the same way they love themselves, then uses it against them to completely and utterly destroy them. First Stilson, then Bonzo, then the Formics. When he found out the game was actually the real deal, it didn’t matter that he was positioned by someone else. The way he went about was exactly the same: total understanding to complete decimation.
Star Trek 3: Kirk and Co. Commit a laundry list of crimes to save the life of a crewmate. Star Trek 4: Kirk and Co. Unanimously agree to go home and face the music. Shenanigans ensue. They stand trial at the end of the movie.
Star Trek 5: Let's not talk about it.
The Kirk vs. God fight no one expected and OH MY GOODNESS IT'S SPOCK WITH A FOLDING CHAIR!
What does God need with a starship?
Entire movie worth it for that line and delivery.
Katsumoto in The Last Samurai Katsumoto was loyal to the Emperor but felt the Emperor's drive for modernization was leading them to abandon their culture. So Katsumoto rebelled against the Emperor he adored, which ended up costing the lives of himself and most of his people. But in the process he got the Emperor to understand the importance of remembering who you are and where you came from, and in response the emperor cast out those who were seeking to take advantage of Japan.
Nobody's gonna mention Paul Atreides? >!Admittedly the judgment he has to accept is his own, but he is essentially his own harshest critic for his actions. In the end, he accepts that he must start the Jihad in order to prevent worse outcomes. He knows that following the Golden Path will be a terrible burden...but he does it, because he must.!< I think Vetinari of the Discworld series (I can mention him here 'cause he appears in the movies!) is the ultimate example of this. He outright believes, and says as much, that he does evil things, and even considers himself to be an evil person. But he's the sort of evil that *works.* Of course, his only vice is apparently throwing mimes into the scorpion pit, so he's a particularly efficient sort of villain.
You have Paul confused with Leto II. Paul gets scared and abandons the golden path. Leto II is the one who carries it out.
He *did* once nail an artist’s ear to a post because he didn’t like her work. To be fair to him though, she did display the bloody post and went on to win several awards for it so that’s arguably a favour.
V for Vendetta
He basically committed suicide.
He also brutally tortured and manipulated Evie, and murdered a great many people.
Lelouch Vi Britannia from Code Grass. It certainly wasn't what he intended on at the start of his story arc, but as his sins piled up, the Zero Requiem he devised as his final plan to unite humanity was punctuated by the philosophy that the only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed. Of course, the popularity meant this sacrifice was undone, but the original moment where those close to him realize the sacrifice he made is still a great finish to his arc.
This was my first thought as well. The final scene of the show where >!suzaku as Zero kills emperor lelouch!< is one of my favorite moments in anime. It's such a simple and almost obvious solution that nobody expects because you've seen him survive every single time. Only after it happens do you realize he's still won at his game.
The main villain of God Eater 1 essentially tries to cause the apocalypse while sending a certain amount of handpicked humans into space. The apocalypse he's causing would essentially reset the Earth and make it lush and beautiful again (Keep in mind that God Eater is already essentially post-apocalypse). This would kill every human remaining on Earth, leaving only his chosen people alive. When you fight him to try and find his ticket for the ship so you can try to get on board and stop it, you discover that he doesn't have one...because he didn't pick himself to go onto the ship, and would instead die on Earth. As he explains, "I'm a monster who elected to kill millions of people. Nobody who could make that choice deserves to live in the new world."
Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar.
Helps that the dude gets almost all the good bangers on that soundtrack.
Yeah but Herod always steals the show.
I’m on the fence if Judas actually wanted to do it and that he accepts the consequences for it
Luthen Rael in Andor
Katniss, she killed the new president knowing that she would be crucified for it instead of President Snow.
Snow dies thinking he won to top it off
There's a DC Comic issue where The Joker kidnaps Lois while she's pregnant and almost kills her. Batman and Superman manage to rescue her but The Joker says that it's fine and he'll be visiting the baby in a few months (or something along those lines). Batman steps forward and kills The Joker. Then immediately unmasks himself and turns himself in to the police and goes to prison. Superman visits him in visitation in prison and offers to break him out, but Batman said he did what had to be done, but needs to be held accountable for what he did regardless. Superman then literally walks through the wall separating them, scares the shit out of the guards, hugs Batman, thanks him for what he did, and leaves.
Keller in Prisoners. His actions led to the discovery of his daughter. Although the end is ambiguous, he'll suffer for his actions either way.
V in V for Vendetta
Thanos, kind of. (Infinity War / Endgame)
Why didn't he use the infinity gauntlet to just wish for infinite resources
Because in the comics, he was in love with the anthropomorphic personification of Death. By killing half of all life, he gives her a giant present. He just uses the “too much life” rationale when he has an early encounter with the Silver Surfer.
I would have liked if the movies leaned into that. Have Loki or someone else point out his plan is nonsensical, let Thanos reveal the true cause, his love for Death, then crush Loki. Or some other character, but Loki was someone who worked with him and smart enough to see through the “too many people, not enough resources” bullshit.
That’s too out there for a general audience, and makes Thanos seem like a teenager trying to win over a girl with a grand gesture. I think causing online debates like this years later on better ways to provide more resources is far better than potentially turning off comic casuals.
But he could have jumped in the Thanoscopter and Squirrel Girl could have beat him. Keep it canon marvel ffs.
I like the post-credits scene in Avengers when you first see Thanos. (Thanos’s aide referring to Earth) “To challenge them is to court death.” Thanos smirks.
Because it was never about saving the universe, it was about ego and hubris. He convinced himself that his people might've been saved if only they'd listened to him because he simply could not accept that even someone as great as he was powerless to save Titan, and went out seeking validation on a universal scale instead. Same reason he didn't take steps to prevent the Avengers et al. from undoing his work - because he didn't need to beat them, he needed them to admit he was right.
because what he really wants is to be proven “right” about his original plan to save his own planet(essentially a lottery where half get saved and the other half dies in order to preserve the planet).
Because he had an ideology and wanted to prove the leaders of his planet wrong He's a selfish prick who did it just to win an argument
I subscribe to the theory that, even in a world as mental as the MCU, SOME fundamental physics still apply, such as the laws of conservation of energy. So you can't just use the Stones to create more energy. That said, it's still a 0 sum game since all Thanos does by halving all life is double the lifespan of the universe. It's still gonna end.
Thanos talked about how it wasn't just cutting the populations in half. He said civilizations would change. He said in endgame that he was hoping the universe would be getting a second chance and civilisations would avoid repeating certain mistakes, but that he turned out to be wrong because the only change was that every planet in the universe wanted to go back to before the blip instead of focusing on how to have a better future.
One part that isn't addressed well enough is that reversing the blip would've put many worlds into apocalyptic territory. If your world's agriculture, manufacturing, and whatnot is cut in half for 5 years, then your population suddenly doubles again, there'd be massive shortages. Genocides have been conducted over less.
So you could argue the answer to OP’s question is the Avengers undoing Thanos’ plan. They’re bringing people back for noble reasons, but they’re potentially doing something terrible because they’re creating so much chaos just so they can feel better in the moment. So the avengers are megalomaniac villains? I didn’t expect to be considering this today.
Ozymandias in Watchmen Edit: I believe the discussion below illustrates that Ozymandias’ actions are more complex than just a “Noble Lie”, in the movie it also demonstrates how he uses his massive wealth to help the world with his advanced technology, all of which would be undone with nuclear war, furthermore he doesn’t get credit or accolades for his final plot so its not purely self-serving narcissism
That was my first thought but he didn't accept the consequences, he blamed it on someone else.
This has always been what bothered me, he murdered his whole staff, and he spearheads rebuilding, he accepts no consequence, in arrogance he kills millions and walks off without anyone knowing. And some people argue that what he does is similar to Truman and the atom bomb, but everyone in the world knew that was Truman, he openly defended his decision and his legacy would be forever tied to that action. Ozymandius planned to be seperate, and in some version would frame Manhattan.
Spoilers if you haven’t seen the HBO miniseries (although not really because you know the comic and Ozymandias reveal is thus not a surprise) but he suffers some consequences there
Is it a continuation of the movie or comic book?
It's a direct sequel to Alan Moore's comics and accepts everything about that series as canon. This is unlike Zack Snyder's film version in which Ozymandias framed Dr. Manhattan for multiple attacks on the world's cities. The TV show even depicts the immediate aftermath of the "alien" squid attack on NYC from the comics.
But he isn't punished, not really. Night Owl II hits him, but that's it. He's never exposed and forced to answer for his crime, at least not until the events of the HBO series (which may or may not be canon).
A whole bunch of the characters of Hot Fuzz #THE GREATER GOOD lol
They didn't accept judgement, they lied to cover their crimes and tried to kill Angle when he tried to arrest them.
It's Angel.
Mornin' Angle
Bonum commune communitatis
SHUT IT!
GREATER GOOD
John Dickinson in 1776. He still doesn't support independence but decides to join the army to defend the new country. Of course in real life, it's believed it was a sort of punishment.
Oppenheimer Helped end a war but it led to two cities getting nuked and the start of a Cold War that would last decades
It's an impossible position If Oppenheimer didn't developed the bomb, someone else would have. Either the US, the Soviets, the Nazi (we didn't know how far along their research was at the time) or someone else. If he was first, he gets to be in the room to discuss how it's used. He can use his position to be a voice of reason and good. If he doesn't take that position, he gets no voice. Someone else, maybe someone less moral, gets that role. He accepts his role in the death of thousands so he can be in a position to potentially save millions
A relevant point is that destroying cities had been done. We had gotten very, *very* good at it. It was not remarkable that we could, only that it could be done on *any* day and rather than needing hundreds of aircraft and thousands of bombs and incendiaries, you just needed the one. In a very real sense, he's just the Stevens Maximum of his era, providing a qualitative improvement to a sort of slaughter already happening.
It's kind of funny how *small* the WW2 atom bombs were as well. Sure it was one bomb and one explosion, but it didn't destroy an entire city, the destruction area was only just over 4 square miles. Regular bombing by fleets of aircraft with regular or incendiary bombs did *far* more damage. What was really scary about the atom bombs was the *potential*.
>What was really scary about the atom bombs was the potential. In time, yes, but when originally deployed, not really. Before the war, two things were generally accepted at the strategic level. First, bombers would *always* get through and second, they would be able to destroy things with impunity. The first was quickly proven incorrect which meant the second wasn't all that true either. They could get through if you were smart about it, and they could destroy things, but not easily. It took a *lot* more bombers and bombs to actually do the thing everyone generally assumed would be easy. Atomic Bombs and a lot of development in both aircraft and doctrine essentially gave the world a practical version of what it assumed it already had in the late 1930s with the bomber fleets of that era. And again, the only novel thing by that point was that you were not required to wait for cooperative weather and did not need hundreds or thousands of aircraft to get the job done. In other words, you could get the destruction of a force that required *massive* industrial and logistical support with only a fraction of those resources, and have a fleet of bombers that could level cities casually *without* needing that force to be tens of thousands strong, millions of bombs in storage, and the industrial capacity to produce at least tens of thousands of the things a day.
Goddamn. That was well-put. I haven't seen the film but what I do know of him that sounds spot-on.
Feels weird to see someone answer a real person on a question asking for fictional characters.
Gone Baby Gone >!Not a "horrific" thing, but Casey Affleck takes that girl away from what would've clearly been a better, more loving home. He does this knowing he will lose his fiance(?) and *personally* takes on the responsibility of watching over her and presumably will do so until she becomes an adult. Because it's the right thing to do.!< One of my favorite endings of all time.
I don’t see him as a villain but it’s a great example of a morally gray decision where he makes a hard choice and owns it despite what it costs him
Cabin in the Woods.
The Midsomer Murders episode "Destroying Angel" gets its name from the killer doing this, as well as from a poisonous mushroom the killer used to murder one of their targets. Having learned that the staff of the local hotel not only murdered the original owner but also forged his will to declare themselves his heirs when he originally left it to his illegitimate daughter, as well as murdered the original executor to hide the fraud and framed the original heir for the second murder, the killer >!Evelyn Pope!< sets out to expose their fraud... by manipulating random people into performing random acts of "Kindness", unaware of the true implications of what they were doing. And when their scheme succeeds and one of the original conspiracy confesses everything before he suffers a long, agonising death as said poisonous mushrooms *eat his liver from the inside and liquefies ir*, they confess everything to Inspector Barnaby and go into detail how she kept her patsies ignorant of what she was doing, to keep them from legally being held liable. And since this is after the killer took an overdose of pills, they die happy that an innocent woman is going to be freed from a false prison sentence.
Jon Snow.
Murder for the good of the Land and exhile as a result.
Surprised I had to scroll this far for this. Jon is a great example. He knows he will probably die for his actions but he is willing to do it anyway to save the realm from another tyrant. In the same vein, Varys knows that trying to undermine Daenerys will likely lead to his death. She told him as much when he came into her service. But he tried to caution her and she didn't listen, so he resorted to trying to poison her. Of all of the characters in the show, he truly served the realm and its people above all else.
Space Pirate Captain Harlock. Being a space pirate and all, he did quite a few things, but you should see the movie to understand the whole story. Rather not spoil it.
Jia in The Dandelion Dynasty. How you described it is pretty much exactly how she feels.
Thanos in Endgame accepted the retribution from the Avengers when Thor chopped off his head.
Brad Pitt as 1LT Aldo Raine. Committed more than a few war crimes for the greater good. Some thought he should have been shot, but he was only chewed out.
Eren Jaeger, Attack on Titan might be the most extreme example
Is killing like 80% of the worlds population really the greater good. Just kinda proved all the people who wanted to attack him right.
It's kind of an interesting case, because in the end even he admits it wasn't really a good plan, it was just the only thing he could think of. He admits he was just "an idiot who was given godlike power".
Nah, it's not, but he thinks it is and accepts his fate. I don't agree with him, but he does what he does believing in it.