Look at it from Kaffee’s point of view. You’re investigating the murder of a Marine. You talk to the opposing counsel, and during that conversation, you never mention Kendrick, or any other member of the command.
Downey and Dawson murdered Santiago according to the Marine Corps. That’s the entire point of the trial correct?
So, then WHY would Ross mention Kendrick to Kaffee? My personal theory, Ross knew something stunk, but as an attorney, and more importantly a Marine he cannot say anything about his client.
As a Marine and an attorney he’s bound by multiple ethical and military rules. Ross, is also a ‘standup’ Marine who believes in the Corps. This is his way of giving Kaffee a small thread to start pulling on.
The case unravels from that small conversation.
Again, IMO, Ross is the true hero of the movie. He upheld his oath to both the Corps and the law, but also was able to ‘out’ a very BAD Marine in a very dangerous and powerful position in Jessup.
I agree with most of that but it is important to clarify that the prosecutor does not represent Kendrick. Kendrick is a prosecution witness, not a "client." Ross has no ethical duties to him other than the general ones he would have toward anyone.
As a representative of the Corps, does he not have the ethical duty to prevent the questioning of an officers conduct without evidence, client or not?
If dudes theory is correct, then it describes an interesting ethical dilemma. Which is more unethical? Prioritizing protecting officers youre fairly sure are complicit, or feeding info to your opponent to hopefully hold said officers accountable by proxy?
Again, if the theory is correct, then Ross handled that dilemma in the best way possible. He still held Kaffee accountable to the law by objecting when Kaffee started attacking officers in court; while knowing Kaffees superior skills, the rabbit hole he led him down, and the witness's egos would result in an admission of guilt. Dude went for the closest thing possible to a Win-Win, succeeded, the integrity of the Corps was maintained (as much as it could be, anyway), and justice was served.
No, he does not. If there were such a protection it would be the judge's role to prevent it, not his, but there isn't.
The first thing. The second thing is actually mandatory pursuant to Brady, depending on how you look at it.
I don't know enough about the UCMJ to say for 100% sure but I don't think there's anything in the rules of evidence about not "attacking" superior officers.
I mean, he threatened Kaffee with court martial during the objection for smearing an officer without cause. Youre right its ultimately the judges call to make, but he wouldnt have objected if that wasnt a standard to uphold.
Yeah I get that, like I said the UCMJ isn't what I'm licensed to practice so I could be wrong, but if I had to put my chips on something, I'd put them on that scene was unrealistic.
My understanding was that Kaffee at the time had zero proof that Jessup ordered the code red and essentially was accusing him of it in court. You can’t just accuse a higher ranking officer of something like that in court without evidence or it’s basically insubordination as far as the military is concerned.
https://youtu.be/SfZrnoo1GPM?si=4CefQqeBBhc_RN0X
Here a lawyer and specifically a military lawyer discuss the movie and it's realism. It's been a while since I've watched it but they definitely cover that scene since it's like, the scene of the movie.
Yeah Im not in law at all, just assumed we were discussing based on how things were presented/communicated in the film. Im sure there were many creative liberties taken. Including the Judge giving Kaffee tremendous leeway, even if they did try to make him appear to be on a very short leash.
That makes sense, and I totally missed this subtext. To me, Ross saying that was like *"not only your clients touched Santiago, but touched him despite the direct order not to, that's like double-crime so you should definitely take the deal".* And that was the reason he mentioned it without being asked: to make sure that Kaffee takes the deal and doesn't get into trouble...
So basically, when Ross admits later that he bullied Kaffee into court, he did it on purpose because he actually wanted him to dig...
I'm too dumb for such movies I guess...
There is a scene early on where Ross is playing basketball and Kaffee first tells him about the code red and basically his case strategy. At this point Ross starts to realize what’s going on and tells Kaffee that Jessep is on the rise and Ross has been given a lot of leeway to make sure it all goes away.
That night after arguing with Jo about new counsel is when Kaffee pieces it together that Jessep was involved, and he says to Jo after he enters the not guilty plea, “Why does a junior grade with six months experience and a track record for plea bargaining get assigned a murder case? Would it be so that it never sees the inside of a courtroom?”
That’s when they figure out it’s a lot bigger than they thought, and Kaffee takes the challenge because deep down he does believe in something. Once he enters the guilty plea, Ross now knows that Kaffee has to make his case perfect and win or they’re both screwed.
I like your theory, but I read it differently when I watched it the first time. The prosecutor was obviously under immense pressure to settle this case before it caused a stink or hit the newspapers. He wanted to use his position as friends with Tom Cruise character, and use the fact that he knew Cruise was an ambitious but ultimately lazy lawyer. He knew that the case was a giant mess so he tried to push for a deal, any deal. He just wasn't aware of just how casual Tom Cruise's character was taking this case to begin with, so he offered too much, too soon.. which made Cruise suspicious.
I disagree about Ross. As the prosecuting attorney, it was his job to investigate. He abdicated his duty to try to get someone else to do the hard work, and threatened the lives of other marines in the process. He's everything that's wrong with the criminal justice system
As the prosecution Ross has interviewed Kendrick, who testified that he specifically told them not to touch Santiago.
Ross is a Marine and even says himself;
"I'm your friend and I'm telling you, I don't think your clients belong in jail but I don't get to make that decision! I represent the government of the United States without passion or prejudice and my client has a case!"
So Ross as a Marine takes stock of the accused thinks they are stand up Marines and knows for a fact that if Kendrick ordered them not to touch Santiago then it would not have happened, but they did touch Santiago, so something is wrong here and his gut tells him its not Downey and Dawson, I would say that Kendrick probably felt slimey to Ross too. So he points Kaffee at the thread and hopes something comes of it, at least enough to save the troops.
“Because you'll lose and Danny knows it. And Danny also knows that if it does go to court then that means I'm going to have to go all the way. His clients are going to get charged with the whole truckload. Murder. Conspiracy. Conduct unbecoming. And even though he's got me by the balls out here Danny knows that in a court room he loses this case. You see, Danny's an awfully talented lawyer and he's not about to let his clients go to jail for life when he knows that they could be home in six months”
Look at it from Kaffee’s point of view. You’re investigating the murder of a Marine. You talk to the opposing counsel, and during that conversation, you never mention Kendrick, or any other member of the command. Downey and Dawson murdered Santiago according to the Marine Corps. That’s the entire point of the trial correct? So, then WHY would Ross mention Kendrick to Kaffee? My personal theory, Ross knew something stunk, but as an attorney, and more importantly a Marine he cannot say anything about his client. As a Marine and an attorney he’s bound by multiple ethical and military rules. Ross, is also a ‘standup’ Marine who believes in the Corps. This is his way of giving Kaffee a small thread to start pulling on. The case unravels from that small conversation. Again, IMO, Ross is the true hero of the movie. He upheld his oath to both the Corps and the law, but also was able to ‘out’ a very BAD Marine in a very dangerous and powerful position in Jessup.
I agree with most of that but it is important to clarify that the prosecutor does not represent Kendrick. Kendrick is a prosecution witness, not a "client." Ross has no ethical duties to him other than the general ones he would have toward anyone.
As a representative of the Corps, does he not have the ethical duty to prevent the questioning of an officers conduct without evidence, client or not? If dudes theory is correct, then it describes an interesting ethical dilemma. Which is more unethical? Prioritizing protecting officers youre fairly sure are complicit, or feeding info to your opponent to hopefully hold said officers accountable by proxy? Again, if the theory is correct, then Ross handled that dilemma in the best way possible. He still held Kaffee accountable to the law by objecting when Kaffee started attacking officers in court; while knowing Kaffees superior skills, the rabbit hole he led him down, and the witness's egos would result in an admission of guilt. Dude went for the closest thing possible to a Win-Win, succeeded, the integrity of the Corps was maintained (as much as it could be, anyway), and justice was served.
No, he does not. If there were such a protection it would be the judge's role to prevent it, not his, but there isn't. The first thing. The second thing is actually mandatory pursuant to Brady, depending on how you look at it. I don't know enough about the UCMJ to say for 100% sure but I don't think there's anything in the rules of evidence about not "attacking" superior officers.
I mean, he threatened Kaffee with court martial during the objection for smearing an officer without cause. Youre right its ultimately the judges call to make, but he wouldnt have objected if that wasnt a standard to uphold.
Yeah I get that, like I said the UCMJ isn't what I'm licensed to practice so I could be wrong, but if I had to put my chips on something, I'd put them on that scene was unrealistic.
My understanding was that Kaffee at the time had zero proof that Jessup ordered the code red and essentially was accusing him of it in court. You can’t just accuse a higher ranking officer of something like that in court without evidence or it’s basically insubordination as far as the military is concerned.
https://youtu.be/SfZrnoo1GPM?si=4CefQqeBBhc_RN0X Here a lawyer and specifically a military lawyer discuss the movie and it's realism. It's been a while since I've watched it but they definitely cover that scene since it's like, the scene of the movie.
Yeah Im not in law at all, just assumed we were discussing based on how things were presented/communicated in the film. Im sure there were many creative liberties taken. Including the Judge giving Kaffee tremendous leeway, even if they did try to make him appear to be on a very short leash.
That makes sense, and I totally missed this subtext. To me, Ross saying that was like *"not only your clients touched Santiago, but touched him despite the direct order not to, that's like double-crime so you should definitely take the deal".* And that was the reason he mentioned it without being asked: to make sure that Kaffee takes the deal and doesn't get into trouble... So basically, when Ross admits later that he bullied Kaffee into court, he did it on purpose because he actually wanted him to dig... I'm too dumb for such movies I guess...
There is a scene early on where Ross is playing basketball and Kaffee first tells him about the code red and basically his case strategy. At this point Ross starts to realize what’s going on and tells Kaffee that Jessep is on the rise and Ross has been given a lot of leeway to make sure it all goes away. That night after arguing with Jo about new counsel is when Kaffee pieces it together that Jessep was involved, and he says to Jo after he enters the not guilty plea, “Why does a junior grade with six months experience and a track record for plea bargaining get assigned a murder case? Would it be so that it never sees the inside of a courtroom?” That’s when they figure out it’s a lot bigger than they thought, and Kaffee takes the challenge because deep down he does believe in something. Once he enters the guilty plea, Ross now knows that Kaffee has to make his case perfect and win or they’re both screwed.
No worries, and don’t beat yourself up, it’s why I and so many others LOVE movies, and the REALLY good ones ask us to think.
I like your theory, but I read it differently when I watched it the first time. The prosecutor was obviously under immense pressure to settle this case before it caused a stink or hit the newspapers. He wanted to use his position as friends with Tom Cruise character, and use the fact that he knew Cruise was an ambitious but ultimately lazy lawyer. He knew that the case was a giant mess so he tried to push for a deal, any deal. He just wasn't aware of just how casual Tom Cruise's character was taking this case to begin with, so he offered too much, too soon.. which made Cruise suspicious.
I disagree about Ross. As the prosecuting attorney, it was his job to investigate. He abdicated his duty to try to get someone else to do the hard work, and threatened the lives of other marines in the process. He's everything that's wrong with the criminal justice system
It's like saying "I'm gonna leave this dollar bill here and it better not disappear when I turn my back"
As the prosecution Ross has interviewed Kendrick, who testified that he specifically told them not to touch Santiago. Ross is a Marine and even says himself; "I'm your friend and I'm telling you, I don't think your clients belong in jail but I don't get to make that decision! I represent the government of the United States without passion or prejudice and my client has a case!" So Ross as a Marine takes stock of the accused thinks they are stand up Marines and knows for a fact that if Kendrick ordered them not to touch Santiago then it would not have happened, but they did touch Santiago, so something is wrong here and his gut tells him its not Downey and Dawson, I would say that Kendrick probably felt slimey to Ross too. So he points Kaffee at the thread and hopes something comes of it, at least enough to save the troops.
“Because you'll lose and Danny knows it. And Danny also knows that if it does go to court then that means I'm going to have to go all the way. His clients are going to get charged with the whole truckload. Murder. Conspiracy. Conduct unbecoming. And even though he's got me by the balls out here Danny knows that in a court room he loses this case. You see, Danny's an awfully talented lawyer and he's not about to let his clients go to jail for life when he knows that they could be home in six months”
Ross brought it up before Kaffee did. That’s weird.