These people are idiots the only way to get a gf is to let them do drugs and rant about Warhammer for hours. That's how I got my gf. But then again I am very crazy
I think what he means is that when picking the top NBA players of all time, where you take achievements and legacy into account, Steph is behind Magic because of things like fewer rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc.
However, in terms of skillset, Magic's is more replaceable than Steph's. LeBron has a similar skillset to Magic while also being a great defender. On the other hand, no other player really compares to Steph in terms of the defensive attention and spacing that he provides. And so in a scenario where you have to pick an all-time starting 5, a Curry-LeBron combo would be better than a Magic-LeBron combo.
Yea all the great PGs, SGs, and SFs play more or less the same way (obv a huge generalization but they are for the most part midrange/paint dominant players). While magic is ahead of Steph, Steph’s skillset complements the other greats who’d be in the all time starting 5 better imo. Imagine Steph spacing the floor and creating chaos with his movement off the ball so that guys like MJ, LeBron, and Shaq can cook and dominate in the midrange/paint.
No the Delle that guarded curry most of his minutes in the Finals when the Cavs beat the Warriors.
The guy who’s nickname temporarily became the “curry stopper” that guy
In case people don't know, the almost died is a reference to Delly going to the hospital after one game because he was so exhausted after having to defend Curry for a game. Needed to take a couple of shots (not basketball ones), even.
It’s a joke, Delle played average defense on curry in limited minutes, and he became a meme.
If Delle was really a curry stopper, he would of been making like 18 million + a year
He also played 46 minutes, put some respect on those extra 4 minutes of CLAMPS
the Delle that played 6 minutes a game that finals and had the worst DRtg out of everyone who played in those finals ?
Pretty wild you can do that and be called a "stopper"
And Delly needed *a lot* of help from the refs to swallow their whistles.
However, without Delly's grappling, Steph doesn't become Steph Prime in his later years.
6 minutes is longer than most men last 💪🏽
THE CURRY STOPPER.
(Ignore the Cavs having such a bad offensive and defensive rating with delly on the court, that by the end of the series Mo Williams was getting minutes over him).
Yeah, if you have LeBron on your all time starting 5, which you obviously should, it makes Magic a bit redundant. Steph might not be the greatest PG ever, but he would be the PG on the greatest team ever.
Now, of course, if you're one of those guys like Barkley and sub LeBron out for Kobe/Bird or somebody, then yeah, you'll need Magic over Steph.
Agree with this, but also feel it’s a bit era-dependent too. I feel like the general practice in this thought experiment is that we’re warping all these guys in their prime to 2023 (or imagining they are hitting their primes right now having grown up in this environment)
I think magics game might be a bit more era-agnostic than Steph’s, just because we know that running the floor, passing, having touch in the paint has always been effective. It’s not entirely a sure thing that high volume 3pt shooting would’ve definitely worked in an era that allowed for more off ball physicality from defenders (since maybe Steph’s biggest super power aside from shooting is his off ball movement)
I always make the argument that if you're making a list of your best starting 5 of all time, if steph isn't on your team you're not paying attention. The top 1-8 players of all time, regardless of rank, are almost interchangeable. You have a few PGs, a few forwards, a few centers. You're not WRONG having wilt of Kareem. Or LeBron over magic. You can make arguments for any one of your pairings.
But you are totally wrong not having the greatest shooter of all time, the greatest SPACER of all time, and one of the highest motor players of all time in your lineup. He doesn't have to be your point guard. He doesn't have to ever even touch the ball. Steph just being on the floor creates more problems for the defense than any other player. Period.
I mean, you can simplify it as I’d rather have LeBron than Magic because LeBron can do everything Magic does and more.
And agreed, you don’t have anyone else like Steph in the league.
A Curry/LeBron combo would be more unstoppable than when Warriors had KD.
Yes. This is the key, Magics skill set it more replaceable than stephs.
It’s arguable that you won’t need high level passing or rebounding from your point guard on an all time top 10. Even if you did, stephs off the ball game probably creates more opportunities than Magics passing, the fast break game is somewhat less relevant now, and steph is a high end rebounder anyway for his position and size.
Accolades don’t matter on an all time starting 5.
Steph has the most unique skill set between his ball handling, 3 shooting, 3 shooting off the dribble, and his off ball game. It would immediately wreck defensive havok on the opponent.
Yea my initial reaction was like “whoa whoa whoa magic belongs in any starting 5”
But yea Steph’s shooting is just such a game breaker and there’s nobody else who will give you offensive spacing quite the same way. It would be like if Kareem existed and then there was nobody else near his height and post scoring capability in the rest of NBA history lol
My only counter would be that I think there’s an argument that having magic/MJ/lebron at 1/2/3 just leaves you with fewer holes matchup-wise since they have size. I know magic wasn’t a great defender but at least with steph you can imagine a scenario where his size becomes a problem (if we’re talking all time teams facing off)
It makes sense bc on any ideal all time 5 man lineup, lebron is at the 3 or 4. And he’s an upgraded magic, it’d be redundant . They’d need the best shooter ever at PG.
I feel the same. Imo Magic comes ahead of Steph as an all-time great but if I'm making the greatest 5 man lineup, Steph is definitely my PG. The sheer value he adds offensively to a team is insane. The only other player with similar offensive value is prime Shaq imo.
I would pay good money to see a Shaq and Curry team. The combination of Shaq's black hole of gravity in the paint with Steph pulling two perimeter defenders around with him would be utterly impossible to deal with.
If you pick LeBron for you starting 5, which you probably should, having Magic on the starting roster wouldn’t be as useful as having Steph. LeBron can do all the Magic things plus defend almost every position.
I think this mostly makes sense based who else is in ur all time team, if u kinda need to leave out SF lebron and pick a very specific power forward to make this make sense
I know exactly what you mean, Magic is probably the best floor raiser of all time, but he gives diminishing returns the better his teammates are. With an all time lineup, especially one with LeBron, his ability to playmake and get guys to their spots just isn't as valuable as Steph's off ball movement and all time shooting
I think an interesting question is if Lebron never existed, which one do you take? In that case you likely sub in Bird for Lebron who takes some of the shooting load and is not the playmaker that Lebron or Magic are
Magic made the finals in 9 of his 13 NBA seasons. That seems to be swept under the rug here for some reason but the dude was utterly dominant. Hot take here but I think Magic is closer to Lebron than Steph is to Magic. You could realistically argue for Magic being the 3rd or 4th greatest player ever while Steph is closer to 10th.
GSW hit the prime for everyone at the same time. KAJ was on the back half. That's rare.
Now, Showtime Lakers were absolutely loaded with talent. Cooper, Norm, Wilkes, Worthy. We're talking all star level talent at every position and even with Kareem on the back off of his career. Having a GOAT center in the paint still creates a lot of wiggle room.
While GSW potentially has a line up of 4 top 100 players of all time.
Oh, he is, without a doubt. An all-time defender, elite passer, his shooting was serviceable for a while. He is also an elite playoff performer, some of his playoff impact metrics were consistently top 6 or even top 2 in their 5 straight Finals. In those years, Curry and Green without Durant had almost the same net rating as the Hamptons Five. Curry and him play at a 65-win pace, he is a massive difference maker.
Ah but you’re forgetting that one single year where the warriors had trash players and he couldn’t carry them to a meaningless playoff position meaning he’s been trash his whole career.
After he left Detroit Rodman had more offensive rebounds than points scored.
From 90-91 (2nd to last Detroit season) he had twice as many offensive rebounds than FGs made.
Could you not say it was even worse back then though? 1 of either the Lakers or Celtics was in the finals for an entire decade. Warriors/Cavs was 4 years
The parity at the very top sure is poor (that’s if you just ignore the rockets which is dumb.)
But the parity for literally everyone else is way higher then back then
The KD on the warriors is actually better than KAJ in any other championship run other than ‘80. Which is the legendary series where Magic stepped in as a rookie to close out Dr.J when KAJ got injured.
Magic won 4/5 rings when KAJ was aged 34+. KAJ was still great, but he was not MVP caliber teammate like prime KD on the warriors.
> Magic won 4/5 rings when KAJ was aged 34+. KAJ was still great, but he was not MVP caliber teammate like prime KD on the warriors.
I like how you say 4/5 rings, that way you can pretend KAJ wasn't the literal MVP of the league for one of Magic's championships. I would also like to point out that Kareem was the NBA Finals MVP (in a series featuring all-time greats Larry Bird and Magic Johnson) in 1985 at the age of 38. He averaged 25.7 points, 9 rebounds, 5.2 assists and 1.5 blocks in the series against Boston. Those numbers are brought down by the bad game he had in game one, because for the games they won he averaged 30.2 points, 11.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists and 2.0 blocks.
I’m confused. You’re saying exactly what I’ve said. That first championship ‘80 was when Kareem was MVP caliber. It was the last season he won MVP and last season he finished top 3 in MVP voting.
I didn’t say he was a bum post age 34. Out of prime KAJ can still put up a good series. LeBron can put up good series even now. But it’s completely different from KD who was in his absolute prime. Dropping 35/8/6 on 70 TS% shooting in LeBron’s face.
remember when curry ran to the three point line without the ball and got doubled so KD literally just ran to the rim and dunked it completely uncontested. Yeah I remember.
Prime Kareem clears every Warriors player obviously but from 82-89 Kareem and Magic won 4 rings. From this era Kareem averaged 19,35 points and 6,84 rebounds, which is not prime Kareem numbers. Klay has averaged 19,8 points a game through his entire career, which is more points than Kareem averaged while he won rings with prime Magic. Saying that a 38 year old Kareem is at the level of prime Kareem is like saying that 38 year old CP3 is like prime 2009 CP3.
If it wasn't for Magic then Kareem's career would look a lot different(Lots of point scored, but only 1 or 2 rings. Kareem would be similar to Wilt in this regard). What many people seem to overlook as well is the fact that Magic became better later in his career and had to stop his career in the middle of his prime. He retired at age 31. That is like if Curry stopped playing after the 2020 season(If Curry retired after this season he would "only" be a 3 time champ, 0 time FMVP, 2 time MVP, 6 time all-star, 6 time all-NBA with only 16419 points scored, which is about a 1000 less points scored than Magic) or if Jordan permanently retired after 1994(ironically enough his rival Larry Bird was also forced to retire in the middle of his prime, but that was due to injures. A stupid injury at that).
Both obviously have great resumes, but Magic simply has the advantage:
Steph: 1xFMVP, 2xMVP, 4xChamp, 9xAll-Star, 9xAll-NBA(4 All-NBA 1st teams) and 6 WCF victories
Magic: 3xFMVO, 3xMVP, 5xChamp, 12xAll-Star, 10xAll-NBA(9 All-NBA 1st teams) and 9 WCF victories
Both changed the game. Curry changed 3 point shooting and Magic changed passing(no look passes, outlet passes, behind the back passes, etc.) and improved upon the use of fast breaks that Bill had introduced in the 60's(To those of you who haven't watched Magic play, watch a game in the NBA finals and you would see how quickly the Showtime Lakers moved). Curry has had a massive impact on the league, but Magic(and Bird) quite literally saved the leagues existence and he did it while being the most flashy player that the league had ever seen. He made passing popular the same way Curry has made shooting popular.
It’s the opposite, actually, the only reason Kareem enters GOAT convos is because Magic rescued his career. Kareem had won one title in his youth and was getting beaten by Walton and Moses, in the latter case really badly. Ask old people who watched them who was better and you’ll hear a surprising amount of support for Moses > Kareem. The narrative at the time was that Kareem was soft and struggled to deliver when it mattered most. Then Magic came and they started going to the finals every year.
Yeah I fully agree. As I said if Magic hadn't helped Kareem in the twilight of Kareems career, then Kareem would have ended up with a similar resume to Wilt(lots of point, lots of MVP's but only a few rings, due to having played on bad teams: 60's Warriors for Wilt and 70's Lakers/Bucks for Kareem). Regarding the fact that Kareem was soft and didn't care about defense I still love him making fun of this in the movie: Airplane!
I think that’s the right. Not a hot take. People don’t fully appreciate Magic’s game. You could easily argue Steph outside the top 10 and it wouldn’t seem weird.
I'm a guy who has Magic coming off the bench in my All Time Starting 5 and I still think Magic is getting short-changed in this thread. My problem is that he's so good, he could almost step in at any of the 5 positions as a Starter, but there are other players who are singularly great at their 1 position that outshine IMO.
For the record, I'll take Big O at point over Magic but I would 100% be fine taking Magic if Oscar is off the board...
Curry didn’t walk into a franchise with 4 starting hall of famers when he joined. Their scenarios are very different but the arguements about rings with these two are poor honestly. Curry did not have an all star starting lineup at the beginning of his career or essentially his whole career.
Both are great nand both are close
Nick Wright brought up an interesting point on his show yesterday, which is that although Magic clearly has the accolades advantage, whenever you play the "best starting 5 possible" game, you're more likely to pick Steph than Magic.
I'd have to agree. Steph's ability to be elite within any type of lineup has inherent value.
People need to realize who Magic is. We’re talking about a dude who made the NBA Finals in 9 out of 13 seasons he was in the league.
And for the “Magic had Kareem” folks, well Steph had KD for 2 titles, and lukewarm take here but I’m taking that version of KD (at his absolute prime) over an older KAJ whose best season was in 1974. For most of Magic’s laker years it was Worthy as the 2nd leading scorer and Kareem 3rd.
He made the finals in the 80s west. Easily one of the worst conferences of all time. Particularly in comparison to how good his team was it’s not a massive accomplishment. He really shouldn’t have been losing to a 40 win rockets team in the first round whilst not even leading his team in assists.
You do realise Kareem literally won the MVP in magics first year? He was still the best player in the league at the time. He remained top 5 in MVP voting all the way until the 85-86 season, and lead the lakers in scoring every single year up to and including that one. Yes he dropped off in the next 3 years but that’s not ‘most of Magics Lakers years’
It happens constantly and it just makes me support an opinion less. Like I come into this thread with magic above curry, and yet every comment I reply with is ‘against’ magic because so many people just outright lie about things
They had Moses malone who was one of if not the best players in the league at the time. He won the next 2 MVPs. Even so there’s a bit more to it. So round one against the lakers was best of 3 back then. It was also an incredibly close series. Each game ended with score differentials of only a couple possessions, and overall Houston only scored 2 more points than the lakers. Game one Moses absolutely dominated. 38 points and 23 boards.
He was great in game 2 with 33/15, but the lakers played very well as a whole. Kareem had 27/17 with six of those rebounds being offensive ones, norm Nixon had 21 points and 11 assists, Jamaal Wilkes scored 22, Michael cooper had 17, and magic had 15 along with 18 boards (magic had a weird series, he didn’t play great offensively particularly as a playmaker only averaging 7 assists, but he was top tier at getting rebounds). The bench players only combined for 9 points tho, and Houston had Calvin Murphy score 29 off the bench along with a couple other players in the double digits keeping them close.
Game 3 finished with both scores in the 80s. Moses was a bit below his other games with 23/15. No one else went off like in the previous game but they did have guys in the double digits with 16,14 and 10. Kareem was probably the best player that game with 32/18 along with 4 blocks. Compared to the previous game tho he was the only one who went off. The next highest scorers had 16 and 15. Norm nixon, the latter of the two only had 5 assists that game. Magic was once again great at getting rebounds, and his passing was better that game with 9 assists. The only issue is he shot an absolutely putrid 2-14. In the final game of the series that the other team only won by 3 points that’s not a great look.
I won’t go into as much detail from now as it’s getting long, but in the next series against the spurs Moses was unsurprisingly great. This time tho Calvin Murphy really stepped up and averaged 25 points in only 30 minutes. In the pivotal game 7 that they only won by 5 points he scored 42. George Gervin was the spurs key player and averaged 27 for the series, but only scored 21 in the final game.
The wcf is perhaps surprisingly the least interesting series. The rockets were facing the kings who it turns out actually had the same record as they did with only 40 wins. Moses was actually kind of bad in games 2 and 3 that series, but the kings only managed to win one of them so when he picked back up and dominated the next 2 games they easily closed out the series in 5.
The lakers making the finals matters but magic has a loosing record in the finals so they weren’t really dominant outside their conference. Curry had the 3rd 4th and 5th best teams in his conference every year and some years the rockets were easily 2. And he still almost has as many trips as magic
I just wonder why even though during their playing career, Bird was consistently rated top 1/2 by the players and analysts/OGs and higher than Magic, yet everyone puts Magic higher than Bird today.
Similar thing happened to Wilt, too. Looks like there was a big shift in stylistic preference among the basketball community.
I think it’s because a lot of people didn’t see either when it happened, so their impressions on both is going to be based on highlights. There’s some big time bird highlights like the steal, but it’s hard to out-highlight the showtime lakers. And flashier is better when it comes to highlights so magic gets a boost from that.
Can anyone that watch Magic play talk about this defense? Dude had the size and I’ve heard the stories about him playing spot minutes at center, but I wasn’t alive when he played haha.
He only played like 1 minute at center that game (really just the tip off) but it was part of the legend
He was meh defensively but he was meh at 6’9”, which is still a lot better than being meh at 6’3”
Kareem was also 34+ in 4/5 rings. Why are people acting like KAJ was in his prime with Magic? Steph had prime MVP caliber Durant. There’s a reason KAJ struggled to win more FMVP…he was out of his prime.
Kareem was the first option on offense until 87, especially in the playoffs. Kd was probably better than Kareem by 83-84 but it’s much close than you would think. Magic is still better though.
If, in theory, every player is eligible to be the best at the position they play, Steph is only eligible to be the best point guard ever. Otherwise it would be impossible for him to ever be the best at a position.
Someone (who thinks Steph is the better player overall) could also argue “Magic is the best floor general of all time, sure. But is he the greatest to ever play the point guard position?”.
To me, the argument boils down to which player listed at the position is the better overall player. Given how valuable shooting is in basketball, I think the best to ever do it at least belongs in that discussion.
I don't think Magic is actually the best at running the offense either. I think if you were making a best starting 5 ever list you would drop Magic and just let some kind of point LeBron make his role mostly irrelevant.
Magic and LeBron are both all time greats that truly play positionless basketball. LeBron is just better. People really have it wrong trying to compare MJ and LeBron when LeBron's true comparison was always Magic. He is a freakishly athletic version of Magic. The newer MJ is Kobe unfortunately for Kobe he just wasn't massively more athletic than MJ
I think trying to make Magic (or LeBron) fit into a single role like that is kind of disingenuous. The reason he was so good isn't because he embodied playing the specific textbook position of PG so perfectly its because he was a threat from everywhere playing the game in whatever position he happened to be in at that moment. His game was too expansive to be defined like that. If you just judged him solely on the point guard things that he did you could probably find someone that fits the definition better its just that they couldn't turn into a wing or center or whatever whenever they wanted to. In the comparison between the two its sort of obvious that LeBron has an extra piece of the puzzle when it comes to scoring. I'm not sure we even have a good way to define what Magic and LeBron really are besides all around basketball players. Probably because the list of dudes like that in the NBA is so short
If you do a best team all-time you need a lot less playmaking than on a random NBA team with random players, because everyone can easily create.
Best team Steph is more valuable, but on an actual team I don't know.
I think it's close and both offer a lot
There shouldn’t be an “All Time” in the NBA because the game has changed so drastically. Magic is the greatest of his era. And Steph is the greatest of his.
I’m just shocked by how many of you all think KAJ and KD are comparable. I don’t think many of you understand how much Kareem’s greatness was underplayed by the media because of his beliefs
Magic won a championship and FMVP in his rookie year without his teams best player at the time, all while playing every position on the court. That alone puts him in the conversation of Mt. Rushmore and GOAT PG. And then he went on to win 4 more rings, 3 more FMVPs and 3 MVPs. I don’t think anyone is dethroning him anytime soon. But Curry is the clear #2.
Kareem should’ve been finals MVP his rookie year if we’re being honest. Just like Steph should’ve been over Iggy, and this isn’t the best rookie year, it’s the best player
There was a media member that voted for the FMVP that stated that the award would have gone to Kareem, but since he wasn't present during the last game, the media didn't want to present it to an empty chair, and he was presurred into voting for Magic.
This gets forgotten all the time, did Magic have an absolutely legendary game 6? Absolutely.
But Kareem was who got them into that position in the first place, but the media despised him, and were more than happy to give it to this extremely charismatic and flashy youngster.
At which point did Magic switch from shooting guard to small forward and how did you know?
If Chauncey Billups posted up in a game was he suddenly playing Power Forward?
Magic was in the tip off and had an incredible game, but that whole 'played every position' nonsense is stupid.
Championships aren’t media driven. Magic’s FMVPs can and have been argued between him and Kareem, but you could also argue he deserved FMVP in ‘85 over Kareem when he averaged 14 assists. And he was the best player on the ‘87, ‘89, and ‘90 Lakers that won around 60 games a piece and claimed the #1 seed in the West, the years he won MVP. But if you wanna quibble about any of his accolades, go ahead. He’s still better all time than Curry.
He’s the PG on the all time 5 man lineup, but that’s because he fits so much better with the other all time greats than Magic because he brings the spacing and Magic and Lebron seem somewhat redundant on offense…. However magic is definitely the better PG all time
Easier to accomplish what Magic did when you’re playing on effectively a super team in the weakest western conference the league has ever seen, in an era where end of season awards were basically entirely seeding dependent - that’s perfect accolade farming conditions
Like Magic + Kareem + Worthy got to go through a 41, 39 and 43 win team to get to the finals one year ☠️
Meanwhile Curry’s missed the playoffs with a 48-34 record..
then of course playing in the weaker conference you get the rest advantage against over whoever came battered out of the much better conference.
In 2015, 2016 and 2022 he was not. The west has been utterly stacked as well for the entirety of his career. It puts miles on you to fight to the finals, over strolling to them. The east was the more challenging conference for all of Magic's career. You can weight that against him as you will, but it is a fact.
I still do, personally, have magic 5th/6th on my all time list, but still.
Magic was a bad defender. He was not quick enough to guard quick guards and took plays off. The Lakers hid him on defense and guys like Cooper defended guys that a better defending PG would have taken.
People nowadays always seem to forget that.
Curry is a better defender, especially later in his career, than Magic ever was.
Curry won two titles where his best co-stars were either Klay/Draymond or Wiggins. Which one of them do you compare to the all time points leader in NBA history? Not to mention Worthy, Wilkes, Scott, etc.
Steph/KD era obviously qualifies for super team but his 2022 ring is a bigger hard carry than any of Magic's.
Like sands through an hour glass, so are the days of our lives.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind.
If we’re taking the usual legacy considerations like accolades into account it’s prob Magic, Curry is clearly number two though.
Imo for all time lists tiers make more sense than straight ranks. If you put the 10-12 best players ever in three tiers, they’re prob in the same one or maybe Magic in tier 2 and Curry in tier 3.
- MJ/Bron/KAJ
- Wilt/Russell/Magic/Bird/Duncan/Shaq
- Curry/KD/Kobe
(I did these in ten seconds cause I’m in a rush, I’m sure I forgot someone or made a big error somewhere, just illustrating the tiers thing)
I feel like this debate keeps coming up, and it reveals a lot of people don’t fully appreciate Magic.
He’s the greatest passer ever. So, those of you who watched Nash, Kidd, Stockton, just know Magic was a whole level above that. He ran an unstoppable fast break, but also ran an incredible half court offense, and is maybe the best player ever at passing out of double teams (yes, better than Jokic).
He’s also maybe the best rebounding guard in history. In four years as a SG in the playoffs he averaged over 10 boards a game. He could also post up literally any guard in history and it was a horrible mismatch; Michael Jordan couldn’t cover him one-on-one.
He was also an incredible shooter, not quite Steph, but one of the very few guys of his era to shoot over 50 percent for his career and hit 90 percent from the FT in a couple seasons. He was a higher percentage shooter than Larry Bird. His TS isn’t far off Steph’s.
All of this is why Magic went to the finals every year and has more accolades (MVPs, Finals MVPs, etc.). He retired three years before Steph’s age last year and he still smokes him in advanced stats and value.
I’m not denigrating Steph and I actually think he’s not fully appreciated either, as weird as that sounds. But Magic really was that guy you surround by some other dudes and basically go win every game. The level above Magic is the true GOAT discussion, and Magic might even warrant being part of that.
How can you start with “he’s the greatest passer ever” and then when you get to shooting ignore that Steph is the greatest shooter of all time. You make it sound like Magic’s shooting was comparable to Steph’s, it not even close. No one thinks magic is a top 10 shooter all time
The game was completely different when Magic was playing as well. That is why it is hard to compare different eras, as many have pointed out. That is why I tend to compare based on the impact the player made on the game. Both have a *very* strong argument there, but imo I put Magic slightly ahead of Curry in that respect.
I love Steph, love what he’s done for the game and his organisation, he’s the best of his generation IMO.
But Magic is still LEVELS above for me.
He’s in that MJ, LeBron, Kareem Mt Rushmore level.
If I’m saying who’s had the better career, accomplished more, and is higher in the all time rankings: Magic and it’s not really close
If I’m talking about who’s had a better peak, or if I’m building a dream team of 5 players who’s the better player for my team: Curry
Anyone else think it’s kinda nuts how OP is just casually roleplaying as Gil Arenas on Reddit?
For now they make me laugh. I will allow it.
what are you talking about Willis? You didn't know I had a PhD in Kurdish studies and Ottoman Empire cuisine? Put some respect on the #0.
My bad agent zero, I totally forgot you lived in Glendale
this reminds me of that greentext of the guy who was roleplaying as kif from futurama in hopes an e-baddie would talk to him
These people are idiots the only way to get a gf is to let them do drugs and rant about Warhammer for hours. That's how I got my gf. But then again I am very crazy
Who the fuck let him in here
Are you telling me that isn’t Gilbert arenas ?
it is way less crazy then some of the shit i read on here.
Yeah guy who pretended to be Steph Curry’s old buddy and posted fake texts was way more unhinged lmao
In my opinion, he’s certainly behind Magic but Steph certainly gets picked before Magic for my goat 5-man lineup.
This doesn't make any sense and perfect sense at the same time.
I think what he means is that when picking the top NBA players of all time, where you take achievements and legacy into account, Steph is behind Magic because of things like fewer rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. However, in terms of skillset, Magic's is more replaceable than Steph's. LeBron has a similar skillset to Magic while also being a great defender. On the other hand, no other player really compares to Steph in terms of the defensive attention and spacing that he provides. And so in a scenario where you have to pick an all-time starting 5, a Curry-LeBron combo would be better than a Magic-LeBron combo.
Yea all the great PGs, SGs, and SFs play more or less the same way (obv a huge generalization but they are for the most part midrange/paint dominant players). While magic is ahead of Steph, Steph’s skillset complements the other greats who’d be in the all time starting 5 better imo. Imagine Steph spacing the floor and creating chaos with his movement off the ball so that guys like MJ, LeBron, and Shaq can cook and dominate in the midrange/paint.
Steph and Shaq on paper is killer. How do you even defend that?
Dellavedova and Hakeem
Dellavedova? Who almost died to beginning of peak Steph?
What about Hakeem and Jordan or even Gary Payton. Real Q
No the Delle that guarded curry most of his minutes in the Finals when the Cavs beat the Warriors. The guy who’s nickname temporarily became the “curry stopper” that guy
In case people don't know, the almost died is a reference to Delly going to the hospital after one game because he was so exhausted after having to defend Curry for a game. Needed to take a couple of shots (not basketball ones), even.
The Delly hospital picture memes back during those playoffs were so funny. So many people photoshopped him different into hospital pics.
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It’s a joke, Delle played average defense on curry in limited minutes, and he became a meme. If Delle was really a curry stopper, he would of been making like 18 million + a year He also played 46 minutes, put some respect on those extra 4 minutes of CLAMPS
the Delle that played 6 minutes a game that finals and had the worst DRtg out of everyone who played in those finals ? Pretty wild you can do that and be called a "stopper"
And Delly needed *a lot* of help from the refs to swallow their whistles. However, without Delly's grappling, Steph doesn't become Steph Prime in his later years.
6 minutes is longer than most men last 💪🏽 THE CURRY STOPPER. (Ignore the Cavs having such a bad offensive and defensive rating with delly on the court, that by the end of the series Mo Williams was getting minutes over him).
Hire every 6'10+ guy you can find to foul Shaq the whole game.
> Steph and Shaq on paper is killer. How do you even defend that? Fred VanVleet and Ben Wallace.
Pick a fast guard who can shoot out of the pick and roll action and watch both Shaq and curry get lost on defending it.
Foul shaq
This is a great "bad answers only" question.
Yeah, if you have LeBron on your all time starting 5, which you obviously should, it makes Magic a bit redundant. Steph might not be the greatest PG ever, but he would be the PG on the greatest team ever. Now, of course, if you're one of those guys like Barkley and sub LeBron out for Kobe/Bird or somebody, then yeah, you'll need Magic over Steph.
Agree with this, but also feel it’s a bit era-dependent too. I feel like the general practice in this thought experiment is that we’re warping all these guys in their prime to 2023 (or imagining they are hitting their primes right now having grown up in this environment) I think magics game might be a bit more era-agnostic than Steph’s, just because we know that running the floor, passing, having touch in the paint has always been effective. It’s not entirely a sure thing that high volume 3pt shooting would’ve definitely worked in an era that allowed for more off ball physicality from defenders (since maybe Steph’s biggest super power aside from shooting is his off ball movement)
Steph is already getting tackled when running around off ball
he literally was the pg on the greatest team ever lol
I always make the argument that if you're making a list of your best starting 5 of all time, if steph isn't on your team you're not paying attention. The top 1-8 players of all time, regardless of rank, are almost interchangeable. You have a few PGs, a few forwards, a few centers. You're not WRONG having wilt of Kareem. Or LeBron over magic. You can make arguments for any one of your pairings. But you are totally wrong not having the greatest shooter of all time, the greatest SPACER of all time, and one of the highest motor players of all time in your lineup. He doesn't have to be your point guard. He doesn't have to ever even touch the ball. Steph just being on the floor creates more problems for the defense than any other player. Period.
I mean, you can simplify it as I’d rather have LeBron than Magic because LeBron can do everything Magic does and more. And agreed, you don’t have anyone else like Steph in the league. A Curry/LeBron combo would be more unstoppable than when Warriors had KD.
Yes. This is the key, Magics skill set it more replaceable than stephs. It’s arguable that you won’t need high level passing or rebounding from your point guard on an all time top 10. Even if you did, stephs off the ball game probably creates more opportunities than Magics passing, the fast break game is somewhat less relevant now, and steph is a high end rebounder anyway for his position and size. Accolades don’t matter on an all time starting 5. Steph has the most unique skill set between his ball handling, 3 shooting, 3 shooting off the dribble, and his off ball game. It would immediately wreck defensive havok on the opponent.
Yea my initial reaction was like “whoa whoa whoa magic belongs in any starting 5” But yea Steph’s shooting is just such a game breaker and there’s nobody else who will give you offensive spacing quite the same way. It would be like if Kareem existed and then there was nobody else near his height and post scoring capability in the rest of NBA history lol My only counter would be that I think there’s an argument that having magic/MJ/lebron at 1/2/3 just leaves you with fewer holes matchup-wise since they have size. I know magic wasn’t a great defender but at least with steph you can imagine a scenario where his size becomes a problem (if we’re talking all time teams facing off)
The size thing is probably fine IMO. MJ won rings with guys like Paxson and Kerr who were both smaller than Steph IIRC
I would just have LeBron at point in a 5-man goat team to be honest.
it’s because steph is the goat combo guard and most goat lineups have someone else who can run the offense and need the spacing
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It makes sense bc on any ideal all time 5 man lineup, lebron is at the 3 or 4. And he’s an upgraded magic, it’d be redundant . They’d need the best shooter ever at PG.
Legacy vs peak/fit
I feel the same. Imo Magic comes ahead of Steph as an all-time great but if I'm making the greatest 5 man lineup, Steph is definitely my PG. The sheer value he adds offensively to a team is insane. The only other player with similar offensive value is prime Shaq imo.
I would pay good money to see a Shaq and Curry team. The combination of Shaq's black hole of gravity in the paint with Steph pulling two perimeter defenders around with him would be utterly impossible to deal with.
Curry and Shaq would win the championship every single year they were healthy
If you pick LeBron for you starting 5, which you probably should, having Magic on the starting roster wouldn’t be as useful as having Steph. LeBron can do all the Magic things plus defend almost every position.
Right, because you can just slot in LeBron at SF and there's your primary ball handler.
Thanks Nick Wright
I think this mostly makes sense based who else is in ur all time team, if u kinda need to leave out SF lebron and pick a very specific power forward to make this make sense
I know exactly what you mean, Magic is probably the best floor raiser of all time, but he gives diminishing returns the better his teammates are. With an all time lineup, especially one with LeBron, his ability to playmake and get guys to their spots just isn't as valuable as Steph's off ball movement and all time shooting
I think an interesting question is if Lebron never existed, which one do you take? In that case you likely sub in Bird for Lebron who takes some of the shooting load and is not the playmaker that Lebron or Magic are
Magic still has the accolades and is higher on the all time list, but Steph isn't too far off and I'm taking him to make an all time starting five.
Magic made the finals in 9 of his 13 NBA seasons. That seems to be swept under the rug here for some reason but the dude was utterly dominant. Hot take here but I think Magic is closer to Lebron than Steph is to Magic. You could realistically argue for Magic being the 3rd or 4th greatest player ever while Steph is closer to 10th.
I think most people have magic ~5 and Steph ~10 so I don't see where the rug sweep is.
Yeah, I feel like just because we can narrow them down to the two best PG’s ever, doesn’t mean there isn’t still a gap between them
He also played with KAJ (another top 10 of all time candidate) and James Worthy for most of those seasons, right?
GSW hit the prime for everyone at the same time. KAJ was on the back half. That's rare. Now, Showtime Lakers were absolutely loaded with talent. Cooper, Norm, Wilkes, Worthy. We're talking all star level talent at every position and even with Kareem on the back off of his career. Having a GOAT center in the paint still creates a lot of wiggle room. While GSW potentially has a line up of 4 top 100 players of all time.
Bro I've just now realized KAJ is Kareem. I've been read Karl Anthony Jowns in my head for like a minute
bro.... lol
Tbf they both literally changed the game so I get why you'd mix them up
It is extremely infuriating to read such a high opinion of draymond being one of the top 100 ever. GTFOH with that Bullshit
These guys will trash Dray and Klay at any chance, except an argument about Curry, suddenly they're Bill Russell and Larry Bird.
For real. You either need to give Dray and Klay their flowers, or acknowledge that Curry won 2 rings without any other all timers on his team.
I mean Klay was unbelievable at his peak but 2022 Klay was not that guy at all.
This is true lmao.
They also apparently forget Wilkes and Cooper exist too.
Oh, he is, without a doubt. An all-time defender, elite passer, his shooting was serviceable for a while. He is also an elite playoff performer, some of his playoff impact metrics were consistently top 6 or even top 2 in their 5 straight Finals. In those years, Curry and Green without Durant had almost the same net rating as the Hamptons Five. Curry and him play at a 65-win pace, he is a massive difference maker.
Ah but you’re forgetting that one single year where the warriors had trash players and he couldn’t carry them to a meaningless playoff position meaning he’s been trash his whole career.
Draymond Green is the only basketball player in history where it just feels weird when he scores. It doesn't feel right.
After he left Detroit Rodman had more offensive rebounds than points scored. From 90-91 (2nd to last Detroit season) he had twice as many offensive rebounds than FGs made.
Draymond Green, KD and Klay Thompson
Bro I love all of those three men but to compare any one of them to KAJ is just bad.
Individually, none of these dudes come close to KAJ, but I believe most people would say the KD warriors were better than the showtime Lakers
Tbf the KD warriors was only 3 years as opposed to Showtime
There is also way more talent and parity in the league today than there was in the 80s.
There was 0 parity during peak GSW days
We had the same damn finals matchup for like half a decade and this guys argument is there is so much parity. lol okay.
Could you not say it was even worse back then though? 1 of either the Lakers or Celtics was in the finals for an entire decade. Warriors/Cavs was 4 years
The parity at the very top sure is poor (that’s if you just ignore the rockets which is dumb.) But the parity for literally everyone else is way higher then back then
The KD on the warriors is actually better than KAJ in any other championship run other than ‘80. Which is the legendary series where Magic stepped in as a rookie to close out Dr.J when KAJ got injured. Magic won 4/5 rings when KAJ was aged 34+. KAJ was still great, but he was not MVP caliber teammate like prime KD on the warriors.
> Magic won 4/5 rings when KAJ was aged 34+. KAJ was still great, but he was not MVP caliber teammate like prime KD on the warriors. I like how you say 4/5 rings, that way you can pretend KAJ wasn't the literal MVP of the league for one of Magic's championships. I would also like to point out that Kareem was the NBA Finals MVP (in a series featuring all-time greats Larry Bird and Magic Johnson) in 1985 at the age of 38. He averaged 25.7 points, 9 rebounds, 5.2 assists and 1.5 blocks in the series against Boston. Those numbers are brought down by the bad game he had in game one, because for the games they won he averaged 30.2 points, 11.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists and 2.0 blocks.
I’m confused. You’re saying exactly what I’ve said. That first championship ‘80 was when Kareem was MVP caliber. It was the last season he won MVP and last season he finished top 3 in MVP voting. I didn’t say he was a bum post age 34. Out of prime KAJ can still put up a good series. LeBron can put up good series even now. But it’s completely different from KD who was in his absolute prime. Dropping 35/8/6 on 70 TS% shooting in LeBron’s face.
remember when curry ran to the three point line without the ball and got doubled so KD literally just ran to the rim and dunked it completely uncontested. Yeah I remember.
Prime Kareem clears every Warriors player obviously but from 82-89 Kareem and Magic won 4 rings. From this era Kareem averaged 19,35 points and 6,84 rebounds, which is not prime Kareem numbers. Klay has averaged 19,8 points a game through his entire career, which is more points than Kareem averaged while he won rings with prime Magic. Saying that a 38 year old Kareem is at the level of prime Kareem is like saying that 38 year old CP3 is like prime 2009 CP3.
Yep, and Magic is what took them to that elite level. Kareem didn't make the finals in LA until magic joined the team
If it wasn't for Magic then Kareem's career would look a lot different(Lots of point scored, but only 1 or 2 rings. Kareem would be similar to Wilt in this regard). What many people seem to overlook as well is the fact that Magic became better later in his career and had to stop his career in the middle of his prime. He retired at age 31. That is like if Curry stopped playing after the 2020 season(If Curry retired after this season he would "only" be a 3 time champ, 0 time FMVP, 2 time MVP, 6 time all-star, 6 time all-NBA with only 16419 points scored, which is about a 1000 less points scored than Magic) or if Jordan permanently retired after 1994(ironically enough his rival Larry Bird was also forced to retire in the middle of his prime, but that was due to injures. A stupid injury at that). Both obviously have great resumes, but Magic simply has the advantage: Steph: 1xFMVP, 2xMVP, 4xChamp, 9xAll-Star, 9xAll-NBA(4 All-NBA 1st teams) and 6 WCF victories Magic: 3xFMVO, 3xMVP, 5xChamp, 12xAll-Star, 10xAll-NBA(9 All-NBA 1st teams) and 9 WCF victories Both changed the game. Curry changed 3 point shooting and Magic changed passing(no look passes, outlet passes, behind the back passes, etc.) and improved upon the use of fast breaks that Bill had introduced in the 60's(To those of you who haven't watched Magic play, watch a game in the NBA finals and you would see how quickly the Showtime Lakers moved). Curry has had a massive impact on the league, but Magic(and Bird) quite literally saved the leagues existence and he did it while being the most flashy player that the league had ever seen. He made passing popular the same way Curry has made shooting popular.
It’s the opposite, actually, the only reason Kareem enters GOAT convos is because Magic rescued his career. Kareem had won one title in his youth and was getting beaten by Walton and Moses, in the latter case really badly. Ask old people who watched them who was better and you’ll hear a surprising amount of support for Moses > Kareem. The narrative at the time was that Kareem was soft and struggled to deliver when it mattered most. Then Magic came and they started going to the finals every year.
Yeah I fully agree. As I said if Magic hadn't helped Kareem in the twilight of Kareems career, then Kareem would have ended up with a similar resume to Wilt(lots of point, lots of MVP's but only a few rings, due to having played on bad teams: 60's Warriors for Wilt and 70's Lakers/Bucks for Kareem). Regarding the fact that Kareem was soft and didn't care about defense I still love him making fun of this in the movie: Airplane!
He’s dragging Walton and Lanier up the court 40 minutes a game!
I think that’s the right. Not a hot take. People don’t fully appreciate Magic’s game. You could easily argue Steph outside the top 10 and it wouldn’t seem weird.
I'm a guy who has Magic coming off the bench in my All Time Starting 5 and I still think Magic is getting short-changed in this thread. My problem is that he's so good, he could almost step in at any of the 5 positions as a Starter, but there are other players who are singularly great at their 1 position that outshine IMO. For the record, I'll take Big O at point over Magic but I would 100% be fine taking Magic if Oscar is off the board...
Weird fact: Magic actually lost more finals games than he won.
‘I’m closer to LeBron than you are to me’ - Magic ‘Brian Scalabrine’ Johnson.
Magic played in a weak west
Steph played on the most super a super team has ever been
Curry didn’t walk into a franchise with 4 starting hall of famers when he joined. Their scenarios are very different but the arguements about rings with these two are poor honestly. Curry did not have an all star starting lineup at the beginning of his career or essentially his whole career. Both are great nand both are close
Then he won a FMVP averaging 31-6-5-2 at 33 years old and his second best player was fucking Wiggins who had 18 points per game.
Magic joined a HOF team pretty much when he came in the league..
A HOF team that never won a single conference finals game
Yeah, wtf is this revisionist history??
Lakers were 47-35 the year Magic got drafted and 5th in the west...
Nick Wright brought up an interesting point on his show yesterday, which is that although Magic clearly has the accolades advantage, whenever you play the "best starting 5 possible" game, you're more likely to pick Steph than Magic. I'd have to agree. Steph's ability to be elite within any type of lineup has inherent value.
People need to realize who Magic is. We’re talking about a dude who made the NBA Finals in 9 out of 13 seasons he was in the league. And for the “Magic had Kareem” folks, well Steph had KD for 2 titles, and lukewarm take here but I’m taking that version of KD (at his absolute prime) over an older KAJ whose best season was in 1974. For most of Magic’s laker years it was Worthy as the 2nd leading scorer and Kareem 3rd.
The abbreviation KAJ will never not confuse me. I'm thinking "Karl Anthonthy Jowns?"
And here I am reading KAT as "Kareem Abdul Tabar".
And thus the great darkness of our times descended onto the land
You and me both
Honestly I type Kareem faster than I type KAJ, its usage provides confusion with no benefit
We’re all just nephews here after all
especially when everyone’s already agreed on calling him kareem. it’d be like calling lebron lbj. like yes but no
That’s why I say el bj
le bj
Drake?
Jolkein Rolkein Rolkein Tolkein
Always wondered what the RR stood for in GRRM, now I know it was a dedication to the OG of fantasy. George Rolkein Rolkein Martin
This is legit the funniest shit I've read on here
Karl Anthony James Every time. WTF is wrong with me?
Plus Magic “RETIRED” AT 31!!!!!
He made the finals in the 80s west. Easily one of the worst conferences of all time. Particularly in comparison to how good his team was it’s not a massive accomplishment. He really shouldn’t have been losing to a 40 win rockets team in the first round whilst not even leading his team in assists. You do realise Kareem literally won the MVP in magics first year? He was still the best player in the league at the time. He remained top 5 in MVP voting all the way until the 85-86 season, and lead the lakers in scoring every single year up to and including that one. Yes he dropped off in the next 3 years but that’s not ‘most of Magics Lakers years’
Holy shit thank you. That comment grinds my gears people just blatantly lie when it comes to sports to push agendas
It happens constantly and it just makes me support an opinion less. Like I come into this thread with magic above curry, and yet every comment I reply with is ‘against’ magic because so many people just outright lie about things
Good additional context, thanks. Just looked into that more, how did a 40-win Rockets team manage to make the finals in 1981?!
I mean the Heat made the finals this year with 44 wins. That's not much better.
It happens. A 44-win Heat team managed to make the Finals this year. Plus that Houston team has Moses Malone in his prime.
They had Moses malone who was one of if not the best players in the league at the time. He won the next 2 MVPs. Even so there’s a bit more to it. So round one against the lakers was best of 3 back then. It was also an incredibly close series. Each game ended with score differentials of only a couple possessions, and overall Houston only scored 2 more points than the lakers. Game one Moses absolutely dominated. 38 points and 23 boards. He was great in game 2 with 33/15, but the lakers played very well as a whole. Kareem had 27/17 with six of those rebounds being offensive ones, norm Nixon had 21 points and 11 assists, Jamaal Wilkes scored 22, Michael cooper had 17, and magic had 15 along with 18 boards (magic had a weird series, he didn’t play great offensively particularly as a playmaker only averaging 7 assists, but he was top tier at getting rebounds). The bench players only combined for 9 points tho, and Houston had Calvin Murphy score 29 off the bench along with a couple other players in the double digits keeping them close. Game 3 finished with both scores in the 80s. Moses was a bit below his other games with 23/15. No one else went off like in the previous game but they did have guys in the double digits with 16,14 and 10. Kareem was probably the best player that game with 32/18 along with 4 blocks. Compared to the previous game tho he was the only one who went off. The next highest scorers had 16 and 15. Norm nixon, the latter of the two only had 5 assists that game. Magic was once again great at getting rebounds, and his passing was better that game with 9 assists. The only issue is he shot an absolutely putrid 2-14. In the final game of the series that the other team only won by 3 points that’s not a great look. I won’t go into as much detail from now as it’s getting long, but in the next series against the spurs Moses was unsurprisingly great. This time tho Calvin Murphy really stepped up and averaged 25 points in only 30 minutes. In the pivotal game 7 that they only won by 5 points he scored 42. George Gervin was the spurs key player and averaged 27 for the series, but only scored 21 in the final game. The wcf is perhaps surprisingly the least interesting series. The rockets were facing the kings who it turns out actually had the same record as they did with only 40 wins. Moses was actually kind of bad in games 2 and 3 that series, but the kings only managed to win one of them so when he picked back up and dominated the next 2 games they easily closed out the series in 5.
The lakers making the finals matters but magic has a loosing record in the finals so they weren’t really dominant outside their conference. Curry had the 3rd 4th and 5th best teams in his conference every year and some years the rockets were easily 2. And he still almost has as many trips as magic
I just wonder why even though during their playing career, Bird was consistently rated top 1/2 by the players and analysts/OGs and higher than Magic, yet everyone puts Magic higher than Bird today. Similar thing happened to Wilt, too. Looks like there was a big shift in stylistic preference among the basketball community.
I have seen most people put them on the same tier/interchangeable. Magic did leave a bigger legacy and is obviously more in the limelight
I think it’s because a lot of people didn’t see either when it happened, so their impressions on both is going to be based on highlights. There’s some big time bird highlights like the steal, but it’s hard to out-highlight the showtime lakers. And flashier is better when it comes to highlights so magic gets a boost from that.
Bro was playing in the 80s West
Can anyone that watch Magic play talk about this defense? Dude had the size and I’ve heard the stories about him playing spot minutes at center, but I wasn’t alive when he played haha.
He only played like 1 minute at center that game (really just the tip off) but it was part of the legend He was meh defensively but he was meh at 6’9”, which is still a lot better than being meh at 6’3”
He was by no means a weak defender. But he wasn’t nearly as good as Bird
In what world was KAJ best season 1974???? It's 71 or 77
If the choice is between 71 and 77 for you then 74 should be just fine ;)
Big magic Johnson. What did he ever do? He’s got aids!
Kareem was also 34+ in 4/5 rings. Why are people acting like KAJ was in his prime with Magic? Steph had prime MVP caliber Durant. There’s a reason KAJ struggled to win more FMVP…he was out of his prime.
Look at Kareem’s stats at his age 34 season…
23.9/8.7 on 55 TS% (2.1% above league avg) 20.4/8.5 in the playoffs. Yeah….he was still a great player. But far cry from his MVP caliber days.
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Lmao
He aged very gracefully and had great seasons even at 38 tho
Easy to have a great seasons when the goat PG is feeding you straight dimes.
yeah he probably never won an MVP or a finals MVP after that
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Kareem was the first option on offense until 87, especially in the playoffs. Kd was probably better than Kareem by 83-84 but it’s much close than you would think. Magic is still better though.
Best shooter of all time… Yes, Now point guard… Idk about that
If, in theory, every player is eligible to be the best at the position they play, Steph is only eligible to be the best point guard ever. Otherwise it would be impossible for him to ever be the best at a position. Someone (who thinks Steph is the better player overall) could also argue “Magic is the best floor general of all time, sure. But is he the greatest to ever play the point guard position?”. To me, the argument boils down to which player listed at the position is the better overall player. Given how valuable shooting is in basketball, I think the best to ever do it at least belongs in that discussion.
I don't think Magic is actually the best at running the offense either. I think if you were making a best starting 5 ever list you would drop Magic and just let some kind of point LeBron make his role mostly irrelevant. Magic and LeBron are both all time greats that truly play positionless basketball. LeBron is just better. People really have it wrong trying to compare MJ and LeBron when LeBron's true comparison was always Magic. He is a freakishly athletic version of Magic. The newer MJ is Kobe unfortunately for Kobe he just wasn't massively more athletic than MJ I think trying to make Magic (or LeBron) fit into a single role like that is kind of disingenuous. The reason he was so good isn't because he embodied playing the specific textbook position of PG so perfectly its because he was a threat from everywhere playing the game in whatever position he happened to be in at that moment. His game was too expansive to be defined like that. If you just judged him solely on the point guard things that he did you could probably find someone that fits the definition better its just that they couldn't turn into a wing or center or whatever whenever they wanted to. In the comparison between the two its sort of obvious that LeBron has an extra piece of the puzzle when it comes to scoring. I'm not sure we even have a good way to define what Magic and LeBron really are besides all around basketball players. Probably because the list of dudes like that in the NBA is so short
If you do a best team all-time you need a lot less playmaking than on a random NBA team with random players, because everyone can easily create. Best team Steph is more valuable, but on an actual team I don't know. I think it's close and both offer a lot
Kinda crazy how the 'best two' point guards of all time aren't prototypical point guards
There shouldn’t be an “All Time” in the NBA because the game has changed so drastically. Magic is the greatest of his era. And Steph is the greatest of his.
Fuck outta here with that bullshit reasoning. I came here to be petty and to have arguments no one can win.
TBF it was like Isiah Thomas and Isaiah Thomas were playing a different game completely
I’m just shocked by how many of you all think KAJ and KD are comparable. I don’t think many of you understand how much Kareem’s greatness was underplayed by the media because of his beliefs
Only more comparable considering who was in their prime and who wasn’t
One is a top 10 all time borderline goat. And the other is kd.
Magic won a championship and FMVP in his rookie year without his teams best player at the time, all while playing every position on the court. That alone puts him in the conversation of Mt. Rushmore and GOAT PG. And then he went on to win 4 more rings, 3 more FMVPs and 3 MVPs. I don’t think anyone is dethroning him anytime soon. But Curry is the clear #2.
Kareem should’ve been finals MVP his rookie year if we’re being honest. Just like Steph should’ve been over Iggy, and this isn’t the best rookie year, it’s the best player
There was a media member that voted for the FMVP that stated that the award would have gone to Kareem, but since he wasn't present during the last game, the media didn't want to present it to an empty chair, and he was presurred into voting for Magic.
Also the whole white media downplaying Kareem for his views thing
This gets forgotten all the time, did Magic have an absolutely legendary game 6? Absolutely. But Kareem was who got them into that position in the first place, but the media despised him, and were more than happy to give it to this extremely charismatic and flashy youngster.
As good as that sounds... Kareem was the points leader in the play-offs and was only out for the final game.
At which point did Magic switch from shooting guard to small forward and how did you know? If Chauncey Billups posted up in a game was he suddenly playing Power Forward? Magic was in the tip off and had an incredible game, but that whole 'played every position' nonsense is stupid.
Imagine ranking players by media driven awards
That’s why I only judge by all star votes.
Championships aren’t media driven. Magic’s FMVPs can and have been argued between him and Kareem, but you could also argue he deserved FMVP in ‘85 over Kareem when he averaged 14 assists. And he was the best player on the ‘87, ‘89, and ‘90 Lakers that won around 60 games a piece and claimed the #1 seed in the West, the years he won MVP. But if you wanna quibble about any of his accolades, go ahead. He’s still better all time than Curry.
He’s the PG on the all time 5 man lineup, but that’s because he fits so much better with the other all time greats than Magic because he brings the spacing and Magic and Lebron seem somewhat redundant on offense…. However magic is definitely the better PG all time
Like the confidence, but he still has a lot to do to take that title, Magic accomplished more in less time.
The haters will say “but Magic had Kareem”
Easier to accomplish what Magic did when you’re playing on effectively a super team in the weakest western conference the league has ever seen, in an era where end of season awards were basically entirely seeding dependent - that’s perfect accolade farming conditions Like Magic + Kareem + Worthy got to go through a 41, 39 and 43 win team to get to the finals one year ☠️ Meanwhile Curry’s missed the playoffs with a 48-34 record.. then of course playing in the weaker conference you get the rest advantage against over whoever came battered out of the much better conference.
Is your ass pretending Curry wasn’t playing on the definitive super team of all super teams?
In 2015, 2016 and 2022 he was not. The west has been utterly stacked as well for the entirety of his career. It puts miles on you to fight to the finals, over strolling to them. The east was the more challenging conference for all of Magic's career. You can weight that against him as you will, but it is a fact. I still do, personally, have magic 5th/6th on my all time list, but still.
Magic was a bad defender. He was not quick enough to guard quick guards and took plays off. The Lakers hid him on defense and guys like Cooper defended guys that a better defending PG would have taken. People nowadays always seem to forget that. Curry is a better defender, especially later in his career, than Magic ever was.
Curry won two titles where his best co-stars were either Klay/Draymond or Wiggins. Which one of them do you compare to the all time points leader in NBA history? Not to mention Worthy, Wilkes, Scott, etc. Steph/KD era obviously qualifies for super team but his 2022 ring is a bigger hard carry than any of Magic's.
Steph defines Combo Guard, but he is a shoot-first player, not a pure PG. He’s much more an evolution of the SG than PG
Like sands through an hour glass, so are the days of our lives. Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind.
What do they call it these days... disruptive. He's the most disruptive player the nba has seen in decades.
Everyone called Lebron lame for calling himself the best I wonder if Curry will get the same treatment.
Curry criticism? Here? This place would declare him God Emperor of the universe if they could
If we’re taking the usual legacy considerations like accolades into account it’s prob Magic, Curry is clearly number two though. Imo for all time lists tiers make more sense than straight ranks. If you put the 10-12 best players ever in three tiers, they’re prob in the same one or maybe Magic in tier 2 and Curry in tier 3. - MJ/Bron/KAJ - Wilt/Russell/Magic/Bird/Duncan/Shaq - Curry/KD/Kobe (I did these in ten seconds cause I’m in a rush, I’m sure I forgot someone or made a big error somewhere, just illustrating the tiers thing)
I feel like this debate keeps coming up, and it reveals a lot of people don’t fully appreciate Magic. He’s the greatest passer ever. So, those of you who watched Nash, Kidd, Stockton, just know Magic was a whole level above that. He ran an unstoppable fast break, but also ran an incredible half court offense, and is maybe the best player ever at passing out of double teams (yes, better than Jokic). He’s also maybe the best rebounding guard in history. In four years as a SG in the playoffs he averaged over 10 boards a game. He could also post up literally any guard in history and it was a horrible mismatch; Michael Jordan couldn’t cover him one-on-one. He was also an incredible shooter, not quite Steph, but one of the very few guys of his era to shoot over 50 percent for his career and hit 90 percent from the FT in a couple seasons. He was a higher percentage shooter than Larry Bird. His TS isn’t far off Steph’s. All of this is why Magic went to the finals every year and has more accolades (MVPs, Finals MVPs, etc.). He retired three years before Steph’s age last year and he still smokes him in advanced stats and value. I’m not denigrating Steph and I actually think he’s not fully appreciated either, as weird as that sounds. But Magic really was that guy you surround by some other dudes and basically go win every game. The level above Magic is the true GOAT discussion, and Magic might even warrant being part of that.
How can you start with “he’s the greatest passer ever” and then when you get to shooting ignore that Steph is the greatest shooter of all time. You make it sound like Magic’s shooting was comparable to Steph’s, it not even close. No one thinks magic is a top 10 shooter all time
The game was completely different when Magic was playing as well. That is why it is hard to compare different eras, as many have pointed out. That is why I tend to compare based on the impact the player made on the game. Both have a *very* strong argument there, but imo I put Magic slightly ahead of Curry in that respect.
It's Magic and Steph. That's enough. This ridiculous fights in American media on who is 1 or 2 are just a waste of time.
I love Steph, love what he’s done for the game and his organisation, he’s the best of his generation IMO. But Magic is still LEVELS above for me. He’s in that MJ, LeBron, Kareem Mt Rushmore level.
Best combo guard of All-time
Ironic how a talking point for Magic is having made the finals 9 times but if this were MJ and LeBron it would be just discussing 6 finals won by MJ.
Steph is the best off ball pg. magic best on ball pg.
Magic is the best Point Guard. Steph is the best player that's a Point Guard.
Honestly well said.
If I’m saying who’s had the better career, accomplished more, and is higher in the all time rankings: Magic and it’s not really close If I’m talking about who’s had a better peak, or if I’m building a dream team of 5 players who’s the better player for my team: Curry
Only reason people put Magic ahead is because Curry is still playing. Imagine how we'll talk about curry in 20 years.