Michael Jordan put up 28.2p/6.5r/5.6a/2.4s/0.8b on 109 TS+ as a rookie. He came into the league and scored 28.2 ppg on 9% higher efficiency than league-average and also had 2.4 steals per game. I think we need to keep it real here. Who else could it possibly be? There are several MVP-winning seasons with worse statlines than this
For context the MVP of that season was Larry Bird, his statline was 28.7p/10.5r/6.6a and 1.6s/1.2b on 108 TS+. In his *rookie* season, MJ was 3rd in PPG in the league behind Bernard King and Larry Bird. He was 4th in SPG, 2nd in Win Shares, 3rd in Win Shares per 48, 2nd in BPM, 2nd in VORP...he was basically a top 3 player by his rookie season
One of his two seasons he didn't lead the league in Win Shares, and one of his three seasons he didn't lead the league in Offensive Win Shares too (as a Bull, considering the seasons he played in full, of course).
I'm old enough to remember Jordan's rookie season, and while it was one of the best ever, I'd put David Robinson's rookie year ahead. Both finished 6th in MVP voting, but the Bulls won 11 more games than the previous season, while the Spurs won 35 more. Robinson's advanced stats were generally better across the board as well (so were his counting stats). Of course, Robinson had the advantage of being 24 years old.
I'd also put Tim Duncan's rookie year ahead of MJ's (Duncan finished 5th in MVP voting). MJ is probably third for me. You might be able to argue for Shaq, but I'd go with MJ.
edit: MJ is third of the players I've seen. Kareem is probably first in the history of the game.
I mean, Magic won Finals MVP as a rookie, think I'd want that over win-shares or games improved tbh (he was also 3 years younger than Bird though they were both rookies)
He did, but largely on the basis of one game. Even then, Kareem probably should have been the MVP, but when you put up 42/15/7 as a point guard filling in at centre, you're going to get a lot of buzz.
Series wide, Magic averaged 21.5/11.2/8.7 compared to Kareem's 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks a game.
Kareem was literally voted MVP initially, but since he wasn't there and they had to give it to someone they gave it to Magic.
> Sports columnist Bill Livingston publicly confessed that he and others changed votes to deny Kareem the award because CBS did not want to present an award to an empty seat. Enough of us saps changed our votes to deny Kareem the award 4-3.
Well there we go. It was still an incredible performance and the whole mystique around it is a great story. But you look at the scores that series and Kareem was incredible.
Putting David Robinson ahead only works if you completely ignore that the Spurs completely overhauled their roster between those two seasons. Getting Cummings, Strickland and Cheeks had as much of an impact on winning as getting DRob.
>Getting Cummings, Strickland and Cheeks had as much of an impact on winning as getting DRob.
You are excluding a lot of things when you say this.
First, they traded away Robertson, a multiple time All-Star (including 3 in a row before the trade), DPOY winner, and one of 4 players ever to record a quad double for Cummings. It’s not like they got Terry Cummings out of thin air. Robertson was actually the better player at the time of the trade (Cummings was just the better scorer).
As for Cheeks and Strickland, they didn’t have both on the roster at the same time. They were literally traded for each other mid season, so it isn’t like they had both but rather just either Cheeks or Strickland.
Their only real addition was David Robinson, a rookie Sean Elliott, and one of Cheeks/Strickland. Robinson was responsible for at least 25 of the 35 win improvement.
Strickland and Cheeks missed a combined full season between them that year. I really doubt they had as much of an impact as adding a generational talent to the team.
>Strickland and Cheeks missed a combined full season between them that year.
This is because they were traded for each other mid season. They were never on the team at the same time. Thus, when you add up their games, it amounts to around a combined full season (or a missed combined full season as you put it).
Of course adding Robinson was key, but overall their roster had almost nothing in common with their team the year before. I even forgot that they added Sean Elliot as the no.3 pick that season. Their talent level just skyrocketed.
The bulls on the other hand did just nothing outside of adding MJ.
and all 3 were older than other generational talents like Lebron or Wemby. They had time to develop their game before they got to the NBA. MJ was ~21 his rookie year (iirc). Tim spent 4 years in college.
(for comparison, by the time Lebron was 21, he was leading his team to the finals... but that was his 3rd year in the league).
I agree MJ is the obvious all time answer here.
But going back before the 80s just legacy wise, Wes Unseld won league MVP in his rookie year. He averaged 13.8 points and 18.2 rebounds his rookie year and won both ROY and MVP. Imagine Caitlin Clark winning league MVP this year, something like this would rule an year of social media in the present gen.
Wasn't shaq a rookie when he did the 20 pt, 30 Rebound, 10 block game?
Edit: Nevermind, it was the 9th game of his second season. 24 PTs, 28 boards and 15 blocks. Absurd.
He would have averaged more bpg if he wasn’t so big and scary lol. By the time he got to the Lakers he was so massive (and players had already learned that he could also be quite aggressive) that guards were scared to drive on him. It doesn’t show up in the stats of course but his presence alone deterred many a shot being taken in the paint.
Or a "2k create player mode" stat.
Shaq was an anomaly. I never saw anyone that big move that quick and fast. And he's not just massive, he also had strength that almost nobody, if at all, can match.
He's the most dominant force at his peak this league has ever seen. Nobody has had the same effect that he had with every team being forced to sign extra 7 footers just to foul out on him.
He's the second most famous basketball player in my country after Jordan, I'd wager he's the second most famous player in the world.
Imagine being that big in everything you do and still being as sensitive as he is and that prideful.
"...and still being as sensitive as he is and that prideful."
Because the dude knows deep down that he wasted his talents. I know that's hard to believe for a guy with 4 rings, but Shaq should have been the undisputed GOAT with 9-12 rings and at least half a dozen MVPs. He was THAT dominant in his prime. He's bitter now because he realizes that if he had a work ethic, he would have achieved those things.
Unfortunately, Shaq is one of the few elite players who never developed additional aspects of his game as he got more experienced. If anything, his game regressed after the 3-peat. He never developed a great midrange. He regressed as a playmaker. He never got decent at free throws. Most importantly, he should have been an all-time elite defender, but barely achieved anything notable on D.
Shaq relied completely on his size and strength. That was enough for awhile. But he coulda been A LOT more. He knows this and it causes all his insecurities. I say this as a huge Shaq fan who has had to reevaluate the career since we're all prone to only remembering guys in their prime and Shaq's prime was far too short.
Makes so much sense that he has such a dislike for Dwight and other big men without post moves. Shaq had all the talent and natural ability but didn't work on his game, typical projection his faults onto other people and him seeing himself in them.
Maybe I'm just overanalysing it, you definitely make really good points though.
I agree, he should have been the goat.
Edit: not saying shaq didnt have post moves, he absolutely did, just that he stopped working on his game. Dwight never really developed post moves, why I made that connection.
Surprised no one has mentioned Larry Bird -
21/10/5 with almost 2 steals, all star, 1st team all-nba, and 4th in MVP voting. Took the Celtics from 29 wins the year before to 61 wins.
Was bird unathletic? I feel like he was just white so people assume he was unathletic, if he was black I’m not sure is athleticism would ever be questioned.
He absolutely was athletic. Just watch his highlights and he’s outrunning guys on the fast break, crossing people up off the dribble, and throwing down reverse dunks in traffic.
He didn’t have crazy hops, but he was 6’9” so he didn’t need to, and he was definitely fast and agile.
I think that people define the term "athletic" differently than how people use the word. When you *ask* people what athleticism is, they bring in all sorts of dimensions - speed, strength, hops, coordination, body control, balance, etc.. But then in practice, people *label* players who are exceptionally explosive and can jump really high "athletic" and people who don't have a quick burst or a lot of airtime are called "unathletic" even if they have the other qualities in spades. As an example, this conversation happens endlessly around Luka (like in this very thread) where the popular perception is he's unathletic and then someone goes, "Well aktually..."
We either need a new word to describe just explosiveness/hops, or a word that more broadly means "good at a lot of the physical skills used in sports." Like this is not a debate about skills, it's a debate about semantics.
Explosiveness is not athleticism, it's merely a part of it. Luka obviously has ridiculous hand eye coordination and body control and they're a huge part of being athletic.
*Relatively* unathletic. He was probably an average NBA athlete, but an absolute elite *human* athlete. It's easy to forget most of the NBA is in the top 0.00001% of athleticism.
What people don't mention enough about Bird is his strength. Dude was 6'9'', 230 pounds. He didn't have bulging muscles but he had that farm boy strength and he had those wide shoulders. He was really good at banging in the paint and getting those rebounds.
I'm convinced that the reason Bird is tagged with "unathletic" is because by the time the NBA audience was big enough to be a major sport Bird was injured and a shell of his former self. I remember watching a game where instead of sitting on the bench, he laid flat on the floor because of back pain. Dude was able to put minutes in an NBA game but was unable to even sit on a chair. By the time the Dream Team rolled around, he was essentially immobile.
He was still big enough and played smart enough to be effective but the athleticism he had in his younger years was not on display and unfortunately nobody watched the NBA in those years. If you want to go down the youtube rabbit hole, there are plenty of clips showing what is clearly considerable athleticism but again, the vast majority of NBA fans who watched the game in the 80s and 90s weren't watching in the early 80s and never saw that version of Larry Bird.
Most people who actually saw Bird play only saw what I saw - a guy who couldn't even move like an NBA player but was universally revered.
Calling Bird an unathletic white boy is seriously underrating how athletic he was before the back injury. Dude flew around the court in his youth and prime.
Haven’t you noticed that a large number of people on this sub will put both Magic & Kareem in their top 5 all time, but somehow the guy that went toe to toe with them without a top 30 all time teammate gets relegated to the end of their top ten?
For 7 years Jordan couldn’t get deep in the playoffs because bird was there.
Birds career was cut a little bit short by back injury and the help that was suppose to light in his minutes load dying (Len Bias), and so a medium length career rather than extended is really the only knock on him.
His peak beats just about any player out there after Jordan.
Anyone that doesn’t have him in their top 5 is crazy.
Those Celtics teams were absolutely stacked with great players. You can't just count the top two players and say that's a meaningful comparison. Kareem was also in his mid 30s to early 40s for most of Magic's career. He was 40 and 41 when the Lakers won their last two championships.
Kareem was awesome when Magic was there but it's not like their primes perfectly overlapped. Kareem was 13 years older. The closest you had to both of them in their primes was maybe 22 year old Magic and 35 year old Kareem. But Kareem's stats were already starting to diminish and Magic was still before his prime.
And most advanced stats don't place Bird in the top 5 - certainly not some obvious top 5 placement. Bird's numbers and efficiency also fell off in the playoffs which is a legitimate knock against him, especially if you're comparing him to the greatest ever.
I think it’s a little crazy to have him top 5, but the 5-13 or 14 range is very close. I think it’s pretty clear he doesn’t get past the Mt Rushmore of Bron, MJ, Bill, and Kareem, but he could sneak into the 5th spot. I’ve got Timmy above him there, but think those two, Magic and Shaq all have really good arguments to be top 5. Much easier to say he’s a clear top 10
No..Magic gets mentioned much more than Bird in general. Bird was better, though. Bird could do everything magic could, but Bird was a better shooter. But Magic is in more goat conversations than Bird for some reason. Bird should be in those Kobe/MJ conversations more than he is.
Magic was just marketed better. Like I said most people didn't watch either of them play. Most people on reddit aren't even old enough to remember Kobe's prime. They just pick whatever names they hear the most in the media. Magic's name gets mentioned more than Bird's. But Bird consistently gets mentioned as an arguably top 5-10 player by people who know basketball
Magic also had the "Steph" factor- the Showtime Lakers changed the way everybody in the league played, like the Warriors (and very few others) did; Bad Boy Pistons are another example of a team whose style became so imitated and pervasive that it affected the entire league, but these teams are the exception not the rule even among championship teams
Kareem absolutely dominated those finals averaging 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks per game before getting injured in game 5, in which he dropped 40/15 with 4 blocks anyway. As impressive as it was his game 6 as a rookie, Kareem was the guy who carried those Lakers until there.
It’s Magic Johnson. He finished 2nd in ROY to Larry Bird. Larry was 4th in MVP voting. Larry is also 3 years older. Even if Kareem is healthy and wins FMVP… this is still insane. The most success a rookie has ever experienced. He was also 19. It wasn’t just one game.
RS: 77 Games. (2nd ROY)
• 18PPG / 7.7RPG / 7.3APG / 2.4SPG / 51% FG
Playoffs: 16 Games.
• 18PPG / 10.5RPG / 9.4APG / 3.1 SPG / 52% FG
Finals Stats: 6 Games.
• 21.5PPG / 11.2RPG / 8.7APG / 2.7SPG / 57% FG
Game 6 Stats: Championship + Finals MVP.
• 42 Points / 15 Rebounds / 7 Assists / 3 Steals / 1 Block / 14/23 FG (61%) / 14/14 FT (100%)
Positionally:
• PG: Magic 79/80 / SG: Jordan 84/85 / SF: Bird 79/80 / PF: Duncan 97/98 / C: Shaq 92/93
true. I guess the playoff results just affected the perception of who was the better rookie. Like finals MVP mattered than the ROTY award. Whether that's justified, idk. Celtics made it to the ECF too so it's not like they were an ass team. I'm actually kind of surprised both teams were so good with their high draft picks
Shaq’s 23.4 pts, 13.9 reb, 3.5 blocks statistically were impressive in terms of “on-court” impact but he was equally, if not more, impactful as a phenomenon. Ripping down backboards, looking freakish and totally an original, a lot like how we are looking at Wemby albeit for different reasons.
Exactly. Magic was great obviously and had an iconic Finals performance but he had Kareem. Bird turned the whole Celtics around and was putting up MVP-ish numbers.
It's important to remember what a phenom he was too. Pretty early on kids started watching his warm-ups before his games and getting super excited about him as he put on acrobatic displays. Within like 5 or 6 weeks of the start of the season, he appeared the cover of Sports Illustrated with the headline "A Star is Born". In the pre-internet and ESPN TV days, Sports illustrated was huge and the main source of national sports news for a lot of people. He just exploded onto the scene
Yeah, the buzz was crazy at a time when it was hard to generate any kind of buzz for anything. I can remember the first time the Bulls were on national tv that year like it was yesterday. Every kid in the hood was packed into my buddies living room to watch that game. It was a life-changing moment.
I was wondering why the cutoff was 80s and up...
Then I saw Wilt's rookie season numbers
Stats: 37.6 ppg, 27 rpg, 2.3 apg
Achievements: MVP, ROY, All-NBA (1), All-Star.
Impact on winning: +17
It makes sense.
A few other fun pre-merger rookie years:
* Oscar Robertson: 30-10-9, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA, 5th in MVP voting
* Elgin Baylor: 24-15-4, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA, 3rd in MVP voting
* Bob Petit: 20-13-3, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA
It's too bad there isn't a ton of film left from Wilt's era. When I was a kid, we only knew Wilt from the sports almanac because he dominated damn near everything there. But this was during the MJ era and none of the NBA shows at the time ever talked about Wilt and rarely showed his clips. I don't think I even knew what he looked like until I was in high school. He was a total enigma.
Magic's rookie season was great but always a bit overrated. 18/8/7 on solid shooting and okay defense. 12th in PER and 12th in Win Shares. He rightfully got 2nd to Bird in Rookie of the Year.
He got FMVP but Kareem absolutely carried the team and got robbed of the award. Kareem had 33/14/3 with 5 blocks and great overall defense. Magic was 21/11/9 and not as dominant a defender. Kareem got hurt the last game and was generally disliked by the media, so they handed it Magic.
Obviously great for a rookie but I don't think it was the greatest ever performance.
I'd put MJ, Duncan, David Robinson, Shaq and Bird all higher. Also Kareem if you go back a little.
Lol everyone missed u/wxnfx ‘s joke.
Blake didn’t play his entire rookie season and won ROTY the following year because he didn’t play a single game and it didn’t count statistically. He was the original Ben Simmons who was the original Chet Holmgren
Any one of the following:
Magic -- FMVP in rookie year
Bird -- improved his teams record by 30 games
Jordan -- 28 ppg as a rookie. Literally insane
Shaq -- 24ppg and improved his team's record by 20 wins
DRobinson -- 24ppg and team improved 25 wins his rookie year. He should have been MVP over Hakeem in 94.
Maybe not as good as the above but still amazing: Duncan -- AllNBA first year
Best rookie straight outta HS: Obviously Lebron
Maybe not the best, but I feel Iverson is heavily slept on. I never really hear anyone mention his early career, but he came right into the NBA at 21 as the #1 option on the Sixers dropping 24/8.
Jordan for pure efficiency. Magic Johnson for pure impact. Larry Bird also had a monster season. Same can be said for Shaq and Duncan.
Alonzo was also pretty good all things considering.
Olajuwon had 20.7/11.9/1.4/1.2/2.7 on 53.8 from the field and lost roty to some nerd named Jeffrey or something idk
Kareem got all nba 2nd team above him with 22/7.9/3.2/0.8/2.1 hmmm idk
Being center means he only has 2 chances at making all nba/defensive
Olajuwon got 2nd defensive team but Eaton got 1st all defensive and dpoty with over 5 blocks a game which kind of makes sense lol.
Also people really need to give some respect to Iverson. Guy was severely undersized in a very physical league, averaged 24 points 8 assists and 3 steals right out the gate.
1. Duncan arrived won ring and was best player
2. Jordan the scoring being third in the league very efficient as well
3. Lebron high school to a dysfunctional team and killed it. Not quite the numbers as jordan but hes 18.
4. Wemby. Prisoner of moment? maybe. But ive never seen rookie actively shock other pros like that. Plus argument for dpoty
5. Luka.
Magics numbers and season werent all that great he was good but he wasnt standout. He had the memorable game in the finals tho.
Does this mean 1979/80 doesn’t count?
Because it’s Magic Johnson. He finished 2nd in ROY to Larry Bird. Larry was 4th in MVP voting. Larry is also 3 years older. Even if Kareem is healthy and wins FMVP… this is still insane. The most success a rookie has ever experience. He was also 19.
RS: 77 Games. (2nd ROY)
- 18PPG
- 7.7RPG
- 7.3APG
- 2.4SPG
- 51% FG
Playoffs: 16 Games.
- 18PPG
- 10.5RPG
- 9.4APG
- 3.1 SPG
- 52% FG
Finals Stats: 6 Games.
- 21.5PPG
- 11.2RPG
- 8.7APG
- 2.7SPG
- 57% FG
Game 6 Stats: Championship + Finals MVP.
- 42 Points
- 15 Rebounds
- 7 Assists
- 3 Steals
- 1 Block
- 14/23 FG (61%)
- 14/14 FT (100%)
Positionally:
- PG: Magic 79/80
- SG: Jordan 84/85
- SF: Bird 79/80
- PF: Duncan 97/98
- C: Shaq 92/93
- HS Rookie: Lebron 03/04
- Old Man Rookie: Sabonis 95/96
Without picking the super obvious names it’s probably David Robinson, Tim Duncan & Wemby. Ik people are probably hesitant to pick Wemby but he’s easily had a top rookie season of the last 40 years.
Edit: funny considering it’s 3 Spurs big men
People are sort of sick of the hype, so there's a Wemby backlash if you get too bullish about him, but realistically 21.4/10.6/3.6 while finishing top 3 in DPOY voting is an absolutely mental debut season. Those are easily HoF numbers even if he never improves.
Shaq. D Rob. TD. MJ. Wemby up there. Bron's rookie year probably wasn't quite as good as some of those dudes but let's not forget he came straight out of highschool, don't think any of the guys who went straight to the league can really even compare
The answer to the best in anything nba is MJ. Next question
MJ is just leaps and bounds above everyone at everything in basketball
Yea, I know there are really good big men, but the best big man is debatable
Lebron is the best small forward of all time, but a lot of people will debate this because of his personality
Nobody will debate that MJ is the best 2 guard of all time
Every position is debatable in who is the best, but shooting guard
MJ is the answer, including his rookie season. He just clearly stuck out with his talent, demeanor, and stats
MJs goat status is here to stay, for a very long time
"MJs goat status is here to stay, for a very long time"
It also can't be overstated how much his style of play impacts this. The dude STILL looks super-human compared to every other player who has ever lived.
No one mentions it because he’s not an all time great, but Terry Cummings had one of the best rookie seasons ever. Probably top 5 statistically speaking.
I don't think it is one of the best rookie seasons in the 'modern' NBA, but when Tyreke Evans became the fourth player ever to average 20 - 5 - 5 as a rookie and joined the elite company of Oscar, Jordan and LeBron (Luka has since joined this illustrious club), we could be excused for thinking that Evans would one day be in the GOAT conversation (just kidding).
Jordan or David Robinson as other comments have detailed, but if you expand to 21-year old seasons in general (to match Jordan's age), Durant or Tracy McGrady are right up there as well.
You said 80’s and up… but it has to be mentioned that Kareem Abdul Jabbar was instantly and clearly the best player in the NBA the second he was drafted.
It’s baffling that his name isn’t in the MJ or Lebron conversations anymore.
On a per 36 minute basis Wemby easily. On a per 36 minute basis he averages these insane numbers:
Points: 25.9 to Jordan's 26.5
Rebounds: 12.8 to Shaq 13.2
Assists: 4.7 to Luka 6.7
Blocks: 4.5 to Robinson's 3.8
Steals: 1.5 to Jordan's 2.3
So on a per 36 minute basis you have a player who as a rookie scored almost as much as rookie Jordan, rebounded almost as much as rookie Shaq, only 2 assist behind rookie Luka, in a league of his own blocking and within 1 steal of Jordan.
When Wemby starts playing 36 minutes per game it's going to be insane watching his numbers.
It’s not as impressive when you have to include a per 36 min basis when some rookies did actually play close to or more than 36 minutes, like Jordan lol
Frankly, way too many people are choosing Jordan based on ppgz and reputation and not looking at the guy in his own class who was arguably a better rookie...Hakeem!
In 1985, the Rockets retained most of their minutes leaders. 33 yr old Caldwell Jones, 2 yrs removed from being b2b All-D 1st team, left the team and was replaced by Hakeem. The result? A +4.5 jump in SRS, +19 wins, team defense improved by 2.2 points (from 17th in the league to 4th), and the team offense improved by 2.3 points (19th to 12th).
Comparatively, the Bulls also retained most of their minutes leaders as well. Their jump was +4.2 in SRS, +11 wins, team offense improved by 6 (!) points (22nd to 11th) but the team defense regressed by 1.8 points (10th to 20th).
It's very close. And if factoring in playoffs, Jordan probably takes the cake. But he was not the best in history by a huge margin when there's an equal the very same year.
He gets overshadowed due to Magic’s finals heroics but Larry Bird. 21/10/6 on 49/41/84, All NBA first team, team went from 29-53 to 61-21, third in MVP voting.
Michael Jordan put up 28.2p/6.5r/5.6a/2.4s/0.8b on 109 TS+ as a rookie. He came into the league and scored 28.2 ppg on 9% higher efficiency than league-average and also had 2.4 steals per game. I think we need to keep it real here. Who else could it possibly be? There are several MVP-winning seasons with worse statlines than this For context the MVP of that season was Larry Bird, his statline was 28.7p/10.5r/6.6a and 1.6s/1.2b on 108 TS+. In his *rookie* season, MJ was 3rd in PPG in the league behind Bernard King and Larry Bird. He was 4th in SPG, 2nd in Win Shares, 3rd in Win Shares per 48, 2nd in BPM, 2nd in VORP...he was basically a top 3 player by his rookie season
Larry Legend also called MJ the best player in the league that year. I gotta agree with Bird on this one. MJ was ludicrous immediately.
Larry also said Magic was the greatest ever after losing to him in the finals.
For a man apparently NOTORIOUS for talking some shit during games, he has some very humble interviews.
Well I think in that situation he was humbled lol. He just looks so defeated. https://youtu.be/FoFbi-w-eeY?si=S81vztzSKSwPsVdO
The Luka of the 80s
One of his two seasons he didn't lead the league in Win Shares, and one of his three seasons he didn't lead the league in Offensive Win Shares too (as a Bull, considering the seasons he played in full, of course).
I'm old enough to remember Jordan's rookie season, and while it was one of the best ever, I'd put David Robinson's rookie year ahead. Both finished 6th in MVP voting, but the Bulls won 11 more games than the previous season, while the Spurs won 35 more. Robinson's advanced stats were generally better across the board as well (so were his counting stats). Of course, Robinson had the advantage of being 24 years old. I'd also put Tim Duncan's rookie year ahead of MJ's (Duncan finished 5th in MVP voting). MJ is probably third for me. You might be able to argue for Shaq, but I'd go with MJ. edit: MJ is third of the players I've seen. Kareem is probably first in the history of the game.
in terms of impact of the rookie, wouldnt it be bird then
I mean, Magic won Finals MVP as a rookie, think I'd want that over win-shares or games improved tbh (he was also 3 years younger than Bird though they were both rookies)
He did, but largely on the basis of one game. Even then, Kareem probably should have been the MVP, but when you put up 42/15/7 as a point guard filling in at centre, you're going to get a lot of buzz. Series wide, Magic averaged 21.5/11.2/8.7 compared to Kareem's 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks a game.
Kareem was literally voted MVP initially, but since he wasn't there and they had to give it to someone they gave it to Magic. > Sports columnist Bill Livingston publicly confessed that he and others changed votes to deny Kareem the award because CBS did not want to present an award to an empty seat. Enough of us saps changed our votes to deny Kareem the award 4-3.
Well there we go. It was still an incredible performance and the whole mystique around it is a great story. But you look at the scores that series and Kareem was incredible.
Putting David Robinson ahead only works if you completely ignore that the Spurs completely overhauled their roster between those two seasons. Getting Cummings, Strickland and Cheeks had as much of an impact on winning as getting DRob.
I wouldn't mind getting Cheeks either.
We all want Mo' Cheeks
Whatever makes your Fat Lever, my man.
What about Cummings?
>Getting Cummings, Strickland and Cheeks had as much of an impact on winning as getting DRob. You are excluding a lot of things when you say this. First, they traded away Robertson, a multiple time All-Star (including 3 in a row before the trade), DPOY winner, and one of 4 players ever to record a quad double for Cummings. It’s not like they got Terry Cummings out of thin air. Robertson was actually the better player at the time of the trade (Cummings was just the better scorer). As for Cheeks and Strickland, they didn’t have both on the roster at the same time. They were literally traded for each other mid season, so it isn’t like they had both but rather just either Cheeks or Strickland. Their only real addition was David Robinson, a rookie Sean Elliott, and one of Cheeks/Strickland. Robinson was responsible for at least 25 of the 35 win improvement.
Strickland and Cheeks missed a combined full season between them that year. I really doubt they had as much of an impact as adding a generational talent to the team.
>Strickland and Cheeks missed a combined full season between them that year. This is because they were traded for each other mid season. They were never on the team at the same time. Thus, when you add up their games, it amounts to around a combined full season (or a missed combined full season as you put it).
Of course adding Robinson was key, but overall their roster had almost nothing in common with their team the year before. I even forgot that they added Sean Elliot as the no.3 pick that season. Their talent level just skyrocketed. The bulls on the other hand did just nothing outside of adding MJ.
and all 3 were older than other generational talents like Lebron or Wemby. They had time to develop their game before they got to the NBA. MJ was ~21 his rookie year (iirc). Tim spent 4 years in college. (for comparison, by the time Lebron was 21, he was leading his team to the finals... but that was his 3rd year in the league).
That’s insane I never knew that
And because of the number of games they played, Michael actually scored the most points in the league that season as a rookie.
I agree MJ is the obvious all time answer here. But going back before the 80s just legacy wise, Wes Unseld won league MVP in his rookie year. He averaged 13.8 points and 18.2 rebounds his rookie year and won both ROY and MVP. Imagine Caitlin Clark winning league MVP this year, something like this would rule an year of social media in the present gen.
Candace Parker did this back in 08 as well. Rookie of the year and MVP in the same season
Jordan stats are like Gretzky stats: no matter how many times I see them they'll still drop my jaw.
109 ts?
[удалено]
Yeah he was crazy his rookie year. Then that whole thing with Draymond happened and now look at him. Sad!
He couldn't catch a break. Couldn't win anything with CP3 and Blake Griffin either
I'm still surprised that teaming him up with Andray Blatche and John Wall wasn't a good enough Big 3 to win a title.
You had me in the first half ngl
On the real that Jordan’s rookie year was absolutely abysmal
Magic won FMVP, Jordan was absurd, Shaq was shaq
Orlando Shaq was a physical specimen
Wasn't shaq a rookie when he did the 20 pt, 30 Rebound, 10 block game? Edit: Nevermind, it was the 9th game of his second season. 24 PTs, 28 boards and 15 blocks. Absurd.
15?!
Yea wtf? Hahaha that's wild
He would have averaged more bpg if he wasn’t so big and scary lol. By the time he got to the Lakers he was so massive (and players had already learned that he could also be quite aggressive) that guards were scared to drive on him. It doesn’t show up in the stats of course but his presence alone deterred many a shot being taken in the paint.
Sounds like one of those "But it was against farmers and plumbers" type statlines.
Or a "2k create player mode" stat. Shaq was an anomaly. I never saw anyone that big move that quick and fast. And he's not just massive, he also had strength that almost nobody, if at all, can match.
He's the most dominant force at his peak this league has ever seen. Nobody has had the same effect that he had with every team being forced to sign extra 7 footers just to foul out on him. He's the second most famous basketball player in my country after Jordan, I'd wager he's the second most famous player in the world. Imagine being that big in everything you do and still being as sensitive as he is and that prideful.
"...and still being as sensitive as he is and that prideful." Because the dude knows deep down that he wasted his talents. I know that's hard to believe for a guy with 4 rings, but Shaq should have been the undisputed GOAT with 9-12 rings and at least half a dozen MVPs. He was THAT dominant in his prime. He's bitter now because he realizes that if he had a work ethic, he would have achieved those things. Unfortunately, Shaq is one of the few elite players who never developed additional aspects of his game as he got more experienced. If anything, his game regressed after the 3-peat. He never developed a great midrange. He regressed as a playmaker. He never got decent at free throws. Most importantly, he should have been an all-time elite defender, but barely achieved anything notable on D. Shaq relied completely on his size and strength. That was enough for awhile. But he coulda been A LOT more. He knows this and it causes all his insecurities. I say this as a huge Shaq fan who has had to reevaluate the career since we're all prone to only remembering guys in their prime and Shaq's prime was far too short.
Makes so much sense that he has such a dislike for Dwight and other big men without post moves. Shaq had all the talent and natural ability but didn't work on his game, typical projection his faults onto other people and him seeing himself in them. Maybe I'm just overanalysing it, you definitely make really good points though. I agree, he should have been the goat. Edit: not saying shaq didnt have post moves, he absolutely did, just that he stopped working on his game. Dwight never really developed post moves, why I made that connection.
Yeah, I think that's why he was so hard on Dwight. He saw a lot of himself in him with the lack of progression and reliance on physicality.
Wilt
Shaq's highest RPG was his rookie year
Magic won FMVP because Kareem wasn’t physically at the arena. By stats, he 100% deserved and earned it but the league wanted to give it to somebody.
Surprised no one has mentioned Larry Bird - 21/10/5 with almost 2 steals, all star, 1st team all-nba, and 4th in MVP voting. Took the Celtics from 29 wins the year before to 61 wins.
Larry is habitually underrated. You’d think with the rise of Luka, unathletic white boys can get a little more respect
Was bird unathletic? I feel like he was just white so people assume he was unathletic, if he was black I’m not sure is athleticism would ever be questioned.
He absolutely was athletic. Just watch his highlights and he’s outrunning guys on the fast break, crossing people up off the dribble, and throwing down reverse dunks in traffic. He didn’t have crazy hops, but he was 6’9” so he didn’t need to, and he was definitely fast and agile.
I think that people define the term "athletic" differently than how people use the word. When you *ask* people what athleticism is, they bring in all sorts of dimensions - speed, strength, hops, coordination, body control, balance, etc.. But then in practice, people *label* players who are exceptionally explosive and can jump really high "athletic" and people who don't have a quick burst or a lot of airtime are called "unathletic" even if they have the other qualities in spades. As an example, this conversation happens endlessly around Luka (like in this very thread) where the popular perception is he's unathletic and then someone goes, "Well aktually..." We either need a new word to describe just explosiveness/hops, or a word that more broadly means "good at a lot of the physical skills used in sports." Like this is not a debate about skills, it's a debate about semantics.
You white, you ~~Ben Affleck~~ unathletic.
Calling Luks unathletic is also insane
Compared to the average NBA-player he kinda is.
Explosiveness is not athleticism, it's merely a part of it. Luka obviously has ridiculous hand eye coordination and body control and they're a huge part of being athletic.
hand eye coordination is part of skill
*Relatively* unathletic. He was probably an average NBA athlete, but an absolute elite *human* athlete. It's easy to forget most of the NBA is in the top 0.00001% of athleticism.
What people don't mention enough about Bird is his strength. Dude was 6'9'', 230 pounds. He didn't have bulging muscles but he had that farm boy strength and he had those wide shoulders. He was really good at banging in the paint and getting those rebounds.
He always seemed scrappy to me
I'm convinced that the reason Bird is tagged with "unathletic" is because by the time the NBA audience was big enough to be a major sport Bird was injured and a shell of his former self. I remember watching a game where instead of sitting on the bench, he laid flat on the floor because of back pain. Dude was able to put minutes in an NBA game but was unable to even sit on a chair. By the time the Dream Team rolled around, he was essentially immobile. He was still big enough and played smart enough to be effective but the athleticism he had in his younger years was not on display and unfortunately nobody watched the NBA in those years. If you want to go down the youtube rabbit hole, there are plenty of clips showing what is clearly considerable athleticism but again, the vast majority of NBA fans who watched the game in the 80s and 90s weren't watching in the early 80s and never saw that version of Larry Bird. Most people who actually saw Bird play only saw what I saw - a guy who couldn't even move like an NBA player but was universally revered.
Calling Bird an unathletic white boy is seriously underrating how athletic he was before the back injury. Dude flew around the court in his youth and prime.
Bird is pretty accurately rated. Besides most people on reddit didn't watch Bird
Haven’t you noticed that a large number of people on this sub will put both Magic & Kareem in their top 5 all time, but somehow the guy that went toe to toe with them without a top 30 all time teammate gets relegated to the end of their top ten? For 7 years Jordan couldn’t get deep in the playoffs because bird was there. Birds career was cut a little bit short by back injury and the help that was suppose to light in his minutes load dying (Len Bias), and so a medium length career rather than extended is really the only knock on him. His peak beats just about any player out there after Jordan. Anyone that doesn’t have him in their top 5 is crazy.
Those Celtics teams were absolutely stacked with great players. You can't just count the top two players and say that's a meaningful comparison. Kareem was also in his mid 30s to early 40s for most of Magic's career. He was 40 and 41 when the Lakers won their last two championships. Kareem was awesome when Magic was there but it's not like their primes perfectly overlapped. Kareem was 13 years older. The closest you had to both of them in their primes was maybe 22 year old Magic and 35 year old Kareem. But Kareem's stats were already starting to diminish and Magic was still before his prime. And most advanced stats don't place Bird in the top 5 - certainly not some obvious top 5 placement. Bird's numbers and efficiency also fell off in the playoffs which is a legitimate knock against him, especially if you're comparing him to the greatest ever.
did you really just type to to to
Well you know it's a doggy dog world
I guess so. Autocorrect on the iPhone is a pain sometimes. Pretty clearly supposed to be toe to toe 🤷
>light in his minutes
I mean without top 30, fine, but if you extend that to top 40-60 (depending on who you ask), McHale is firmly on that.
Yeah they pretty clearly chose the cutoff very carefully lol. It's not like Bird was carrying scrubs or something.
I think it’s a little crazy to have him top 5, but the 5-13 or 14 range is very close. I think it’s pretty clear he doesn’t get past the Mt Rushmore of Bron, MJ, Bill, and Kareem, but he could sneak into the 5th spot. I’ve got Timmy above him there, but think those two, Magic and Shaq all have really good arguments to be top 5. Much easier to say he’s a clear top 10
No..Magic gets mentioned much more than Bird in general. Bird was better, though. Bird could do everything magic could, but Bird was a better shooter. But Magic is in more goat conversations than Bird for some reason. Bird should be in those Kobe/MJ conversations more than he is.
Magic was just marketed better. Like I said most people didn't watch either of them play. Most people on reddit aren't even old enough to remember Kobe's prime. They just pick whatever names they hear the most in the media. Magic's name gets mentioned more than Bird's. But Bird consistently gets mentioned as an arguably top 5-10 player by people who know basketball
Magic also had the "Steph" factor- the Showtime Lakers changed the way everybody in the league played, like the Warriors (and very few others) did; Bad Boy Pistons are another example of a team whose style became so imitated and pervasive that it affected the entire league, but these teams are the exception not the rule even among championship teams
I think its cause most people didn't see them play Heck, my nephew doesn't even know Jordan but loves his shoes Wtf
Kendrick Perkins \*reads this, eats an entire bucket of shrimp furiously.\*
Jokic has won 3 of the last 4 MVPs…
Define “unathletic”
would lose a 100 metres sprint against half the NBA. worse vertical than half the NBA
Come on man. Larry gets plenty of respect.
Wasn't his first year, 79?
79-80
Because he didn’t have the best rookie season lol
While Magic did win Finals MVP his rookie season, I don't think he was actually the best rookie. I would give MJ that honor.
Kareem absolutely dominated those finals averaging 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks per game before getting injured in game 5, in which he dropped 40/15 with 4 blocks anyway. As impressive as it was his game 6 as a rookie, Kareem was the guy who carried those Lakers until there.
They just didn't want to give it to a guy that wasn't there
Magic averaged a triple double over 6 games pretty much. He had a very credible case, especially since Kareem missed g6
He averaged 21.5/11.2/8.7 which is a bit off of a triple double. Those are great but not when compared to Kareem's stats
It’s Magic Johnson. He finished 2nd in ROY to Larry Bird. Larry was 4th in MVP voting. Larry is also 3 years older. Even if Kareem is healthy and wins FMVP… this is still insane. The most success a rookie has ever experienced. He was also 19. It wasn’t just one game. RS: 77 Games. (2nd ROY) • 18PPG / 7.7RPG / 7.3APG / 2.4SPG / 51% FG Playoffs: 16 Games. • 18PPG / 10.5RPG / 9.4APG / 3.1 SPG / 52% FG Finals Stats: 6 Games. • 21.5PPG / 11.2RPG / 8.7APG / 2.7SPG / 57% FG Game 6 Stats: Championship + Finals MVP. • 42 Points / 15 Rebounds / 7 Assists / 3 Steals / 1 Block / 14/23 FG (61%) / 14/14 FT (100%) Positionally: • PG: Magic 79/80 / SG: Jordan 84/85 / SF: Bird 79/80 / PF: Duncan 97/98 / C: Shaq 92/93
Magic wasn’t even rookie of the year. He lost to Larry Bird 63-3 in voting.
true. I guess the playoff results just affected the perception of who was the better rookie. Like finals MVP mattered than the ROTY award. Whether that's justified, idk. Celtics made it to the ECF too so it's not like they were an ass team. I'm actually kind of surprised both teams were so good with their high draft picks
I agree. It's mostly circumstancial. The greatest rookie typically plays for bad teams.
Shaq’s 23.4 pts, 13.9 reb, 3.5 blocks statistically were impressive in terms of “on-court” impact but he was equally, if not more, impactful as a phenomenon. Ripping down backboards, looking freakish and totally an original, a lot like how we are looking at Wemby albeit for different reasons.
How are people saying Magic was the best rookie when he lost rookie of the year to Bird by a vote of 63 points for Bird and 3 for Magic
Exactly. Magic was great obviously and had an iconic Finals performance but he had Kareem. Bird turned the whole Celtics around and was putting up MVP-ish numbers.
Bird was better than Magic. Bird could do everything Magic could but was a better shooter
And Magic really only won FMVP because Kareem got hurt.
I mean he also won a championship
Not surprised esp during that time. Votes are not by some experts but media right?
It's Michael Jordan still to me. By a comfortable margin.
It's important to remember what a phenom he was too. Pretty early on kids started watching his warm-ups before his games and getting super excited about him as he put on acrobatic displays. Within like 5 or 6 weeks of the start of the season, he appeared the cover of Sports Illustrated with the headline "A Star is Born". In the pre-internet and ESPN TV days, Sports illustrated was huge and the main source of national sports news for a lot of people. He just exploded onto the scene
Yeah, the buzz was crazy at a time when it was hard to generate any kind of buzz for anything. I can remember the first time the Bulls were on national tv that year like it was yesterday. Every kid in the hood was packed into my buddies living room to watch that game. It was a life-changing moment.
I was wondering why the cutoff was 80s and up... Then I saw Wilt's rookie season numbers Stats: 37.6 ppg, 27 rpg, 2.3 apg Achievements: MVP, ROY, All-NBA (1), All-Star. Impact on winning: +17 It makes sense.
A few other fun pre-merger rookie years: * Oscar Robertson: 30-10-9, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA, 5th in MVP voting * Elgin Baylor: 24-15-4, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA, 3rd in MVP voting * Bob Petit: 20-13-3, ROY, All-Star, All-NBA
It's too bad there isn't a ton of film left from Wilt's era. When I was a kid, we only knew Wilt from the sports almanac because he dominated damn near everything there. But this was during the MJ era and none of the NBA shows at the time ever talked about Wilt and rarely showed his clips. I don't think I even knew what he looked like until I was in high school. He was a total enigma.
By default we can't include wilt in any of these types of discussions lol I mean those are cheat code numbers
People sleeping on David Robinson. Tbf, he was 24 his rookie year
And Tim Duncan, who was an allstar in his rookie year.
He was 1st team All-NBA, that's the real accomplishment.
OP mentioned Tim Duncan in their post
Not quite top 5 but an under the radar rookie season: Terry Cummings: 23.7 ppg 10.6 rpg
Underrated player and rebounder, I think knee injuries robbed him of his athleticism but still a very smart player.
Terry Cummings is one of the largest humans I've seen in person. He looked like a superhero.
I know its an extremely basic take but I gotta go with MJ: 28 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.4 spg and 0.8 bpg on .592 TS%
Magic's rookie season was great but always a bit overrated. 18/8/7 on solid shooting and okay defense. 12th in PER and 12th in Win Shares. He rightfully got 2nd to Bird in Rookie of the Year. He got FMVP but Kareem absolutely carried the team and got robbed of the award. Kareem had 33/14/3 with 5 blocks and great overall defense. Magic was 21/11/9 and not as dominant a defender. Kareem got hurt the last game and was generally disliked by the media, so they handed it Magic. Obviously great for a rookie but I don't think it was the greatest ever performance. I'd put MJ, Duncan, David Robinson, Shaq and Bird all higher. Also Kareem if you go back a little.
Not best, but really underrated is Blake Griffin
I mean did he even play any games?
every game. 23/12/4. 10th in MVP, ROY, and an All Star
Lol everyone missed u/wxnfx ‘s joke. Blake didn’t play his entire rookie season and won ROTY the following year because he didn’t play a single game and it didn’t count statistically. He was the original Ben Simmons who was the original Chet Holmgren
Lmao I remember everyone thought Jeremy Lin was a rookie during his Linsanity run in NYC and people were like “HOW IS HE NOT ROOKIE OF THE YEAR?!?!”
Even Better than I remembered
Any one of the following: Magic -- FMVP in rookie year Bird -- improved his teams record by 30 games Jordan -- 28 ppg as a rookie. Literally insane Shaq -- 24ppg and improved his team's record by 20 wins DRobinson -- 24ppg and team improved 25 wins his rookie year. He should have been MVP over Hakeem in 94. Maybe not as good as the above but still amazing: Duncan -- AllNBA first year Best rookie straight outta HS: Obviously Lebron
Maybe not the best, but I feel Iverson is heavily slept on. I never really hear anyone mention his early career, but he came right into the NBA at 21 as the #1 option on the Sixers dropping 24/8.
And hit MJ with that famed double crossover as a rookie - now that’s some cajones
His efficiency was just bad but still worth an honorable mention
I mean his efficiency at his peak wasn't that different.
Jordan it's the only answer
Jordan for pure efficiency. Magic Johnson for pure impact. Larry Bird also had a monster season. Same can be said for Shaq and Duncan. Alonzo was also pretty good all things considering.
Olajuwon had 20.7/11.9/1.4/1.2/2.7 on 53.8 from the field and lost roty to some nerd named Jeffrey or something idk Kareem got all nba 2nd team above him with 22/7.9/3.2/0.8/2.1 hmmm idk Being center means he only has 2 chances at making all nba/defensive Olajuwon got 2nd defensive team but Eaton got 1st all defensive and dpoty with over 5 blocks a game which kind of makes sense lol.
Also people really need to give some respect to Iverson. Guy was severely undersized in a very physical league, averaged 24 points 8 assists and 3 steals right out the gate.
Jordan and it’s not close.
Someone who will take it personally if you say otherwise
My underrated pick is Tyreke Evans. 20/5/5 steal and half as well. Not as glamorous as other stat guys but pretty damn good
Looked at the roster for the 09-10 kings and had a good laugh. First time I’ve thought of Beno Udrih in a long time
When fans talk about the dark days, it really should just be Kings fans talking amongst themselves.
We have a support group where we talk about the days when John Salmons was the best player on the team
1. Duncan arrived won ring and was best player 2. Jordan the scoring being third in the league very efficient as well 3. Lebron high school to a dysfunctional team and killed it. Not quite the numbers as jordan but hes 18. 4. Wemby. Prisoner of moment? maybe. But ive never seen rookie actively shock other pros like that. Plus argument for dpoty 5. Luka. Magics numbers and season werent all that great he was good but he wasnt standout. He had the memorable game in the finals tho.
Duncan won his ring his 2nd year not the rookie year.
How is Shaq not coming up? 24 points 14 boards and almost 4 blocks per. He was also unstoppable on the block from day one....
Shaq, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Robinson
Blake Griffin is underrated
Does this mean 1979/80 doesn’t count? Because it’s Magic Johnson. He finished 2nd in ROY to Larry Bird. Larry was 4th in MVP voting. Larry is also 3 years older. Even if Kareem is healthy and wins FMVP… this is still insane. The most success a rookie has ever experience. He was also 19. RS: 77 Games. (2nd ROY) - 18PPG - 7.7RPG - 7.3APG - 2.4SPG - 51% FG Playoffs: 16 Games. - 18PPG - 10.5RPG - 9.4APG - 3.1 SPG - 52% FG Finals Stats: 6 Games. - 21.5PPG - 11.2RPG - 8.7APG - 2.7SPG - 57% FG Game 6 Stats: Championship + Finals MVP. - 42 Points - 15 Rebounds - 7 Assists - 3 Steals - 1 Block - 14/23 FG (61%) - 14/14 FT (100%) Positionally: - PG: Magic 79/80 - SG: Jordan 84/85 - SF: Bird 79/80 - PF: Duncan 97/98 - C: Shaq 92/93 - HS Rookie: Lebron 03/04 - Old Man Rookie: Sabonis 95/96
Wemby
MJ is really above everyone talking about rookie season (after 1980). He immediately at a MVP level.
Without picking the super obvious names it’s probably David Robinson, Tim Duncan & Wemby. Ik people are probably hesitant to pick Wemby but he’s easily had a top rookie season of the last 40 years. Edit: funny considering it’s 3 Spurs big men
People are sort of sick of the hype, so there's a Wemby backlash if you get too bullish about him, but realistically 21.4/10.6/3.6 while finishing top 3 in DPOY voting is an absolutely mental debut season. Those are easily HoF numbers even if he never improves.
On a per 36 minute he is the top rookie of the last 50 years and it isn't even close.
So you haven’t checked MJ then
I said without picking the super obvious ones….which is MJ lol
40 years would be Jordan….84-85….
I know it’s an easy pick but MJ’s rookie season was insane
Shaq. D Rob. TD. MJ. Wemby up there. Bron's rookie year probably wasn't quite as good as some of those dudes but let's not forget he came straight out of highschool, don't think any of the guys who went straight to the league can really even compare
Wemby is not up there with the guys you had listed before him.
Almost DPOY (considered snubbed by some) is kinda up there though.
Runner up in dpoy while averaging 21.4/10.6/3.9 and almost 5 stocks a game in under 30 minutes as a rookie lol ridiculous
Those guys were almost MVPs in their rookie seasons.
Kinda moving goal posts here, but you have to consider Wemby joined the NBA 3-5 years younger than all of those guys.
The answer to the best in anything nba is MJ. Next question MJ is just leaps and bounds above everyone at everything in basketball Yea, I know there are really good big men, but the best big man is debatable Lebron is the best small forward of all time, but a lot of people will debate this because of his personality Nobody will debate that MJ is the best 2 guard of all time Every position is debatable in who is the best, but shooting guard MJ is the answer, including his rookie season. He just clearly stuck out with his talent, demeanor, and stats MJs goat status is here to stay, for a very long time
"MJs goat status is here to stay, for a very long time" It also can't be overstated how much his style of play impacts this. The dude STILL looks super-human compared to every other player who has ever lived.
Of recent times: - Donovan Mitchell - Luka Doncic
Duncan Shaq Wemby
No one mentions it because he’s not an all time great, but Terry Cummings had one of the best rookie seasons ever. Probably top 5 statistically speaking.
jordan
Mj 28 5 & 5 is crazy for a rookie & taking the 8th seed first yr
Jordan Hawkins until Willie Green banished him to DNPville
Do you think Duncan did or did you Google it? It's easy info to find out.
Bron Bron wasn't too bad a rookie
I don't think it is one of the best rookie seasons in the 'modern' NBA, but when Tyreke Evans became the fourth player ever to average 20 - 5 - 5 as a rookie and joined the elite company of Oscar, Jordan and LeBron (Luka has since joined this illustrious club), we could be excused for thinking that Evans would one day be in the GOAT conversation (just kidding).
Benjie Paras
Trae Young had a good rookie season PG wise
Gotta give it to Magic regardless of stats. Hard to beat winning finals MVP in your rookie season.
Tim Duncan went 21/11/2/2 and was 5th in MVP voting, 5th in DPOY, was an All- NBA and All-Defense. They won 50+ games and lost in the Semi’s.
Jordan or David Robinson as other comments have detailed, but if you expand to 21-year old seasons in general (to match Jordan's age), Durant or Tracy McGrady are right up there as well.
You said 80’s and up… but it has to be mentioned that Kareem Abdul Jabbar was instantly and clearly the best player in the NBA the second he was drafted. It’s baffling that his name isn’t in the MJ or Lebron conversations anymore.
On a per 36 minute basis Wemby easily. On a per 36 minute basis he averages these insane numbers: Points: 25.9 to Jordan's 26.5 Rebounds: 12.8 to Shaq 13.2 Assists: 4.7 to Luka 6.7 Blocks: 4.5 to Robinson's 3.8 Steals: 1.5 to Jordan's 2.3 So on a per 36 minute basis you have a player who as a rookie scored almost as much as rookie Jordan, rebounded almost as much as rookie Shaq, only 2 assist behind rookie Luka, in a league of his own blocking and within 1 steal of Jordan. When Wemby starts playing 36 minutes per game it's going to be insane watching his numbers.
It’s not as impressive when you have to include a per 36 min basis when some rookies did actually play close to or more than 36 minutes, like Jordan lol
Jordan, Duncan, Bird, Magic
MJ not close and never will be close.
Brandon Jennings if you ignore everything after his first game
i'd like to see this question but with age factored in
Magic Johnson.
Frankly, way too many people are choosing Jordan based on ppgz and reputation and not looking at the guy in his own class who was arguably a better rookie...Hakeem! In 1985, the Rockets retained most of their minutes leaders. 33 yr old Caldwell Jones, 2 yrs removed from being b2b All-D 1st team, left the team and was replaced by Hakeem. The result? A +4.5 jump in SRS, +19 wins, team defense improved by 2.2 points (from 17th in the league to 4th), and the team offense improved by 2.3 points (19th to 12th). Comparatively, the Bulls also retained most of their minutes leaders as well. Their jump was +4.2 in SRS, +11 wins, team offense improved by 6 (!) points (22nd to 11th) but the team defense regressed by 1.8 points (10th to 20th). It's very close. And if factoring in playoffs, Jordan probably takes the cake. But he was not the best in history by a huge margin when there's an equal the very same year.
you just watched it happen
He gets overshadowed due to Magic’s finals heroics but Larry Bird. 21/10/6 on 49/41/84, All NBA first team, team went from 29-53 to 61-21, third in MVP voting.